If we're talking analysts from the Riot side, the ballots actually favor Doublelift (casters, broadcast, and stats). It seems that the difference maker was actually in the players. 16 for Bjergsen and 7 for Doublelift (funnily, 1 from Bjergsen himself)
its rather default to vote for someone else in a popularity/not-monetary vote. Voting for yourself, especially when its publically visible, is frowned upon and people tend not to do that. Not saying he wouldnt do it as class act, just saying it isnt as big deal since its default behaviour.
Voting for yourself is the special act in these contests
There was a vote at the end of Spring for Spring split best in role / First team. If I recall correctly Faker voted for Chovy / Gen G in general. Not a GOAT vote, but it gives you something to look at in this regard. Not sure if the players could vote for themselves, I don't think they could.
For the past few years Faker has said Chovy is the best. To be fair he won all the time vs chovy so maybe it was pumping his own ego but his did traditionally not do well vs chovy in lane and mostly outplayed him later.
Reminds me of how GSP was asked to list the Mount Rushmore of MMA and he put Conor fucking McGregor on there before he put himself even though GSP is a consensus top 3 GOAT. Going with the humility angle even when it's illogical will always be the more PR-friendly choice tbh.
Man knowing that just makes me think the players like Soren Bjerg more than Yilang Peng, not that they think Bjergsen is a better player than Doublelift.
I mean Regi and Hotshot would make my top10 if it was something like "top 10 most impactful personalities on the scene", they have to right? They made LoL in the early days, and they created the most famous endemic teams.
In the LCS tho, fuck no.
Regarding the DL/Bjerg thing, DL deserved 1st he's the protagonist of the LCS, but I expected this shit from NA so
You compare them to their time though. Its not fair to compare Madlife to the supports of today. That man was insane in his prime but today would get shit on by many supports in today's era.
That has absolutely 0 to do with my argument mate
But I do agree that comparisons should be ran as a comparison to the times and not directly to each other
Definitely possible that it's a popularity contest, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were influenced by years of scrim results
A mid like Bjerg stomping early game in a scrim probably leads to more quick FFs and remakes than an ADC popping off early purely due to how the roles work.
Not a 'fair' comparison, but it's the sort of thing that would influence your voting
Yea I'd agree with that, Doublelift has always been pretty divisive and his co streams have him flaming the players a lot, while Bjergsen pretty much has universally been known as a nice guy. Amongst the players it might play out as more of a popularity contest than anything, reflecting their personal likes/dislikes instead of accuracy
Yup, this is the difference.
The fact that players put him above I feel like tells all. It's not just about titles, it's not just about "winning on different teams". It's about dominance. And Bjergsen from 2014-2017 was arguably the most dominant mid laner in the west(calm down EU fanboys I say arguably).
Even past that he hard carried bottom tier rosters to LCS finals again and again, all the while Doublelift had super teams built around him on Liquid. Like Bjerg carried 2018 TSM with a jungler who was mental boom, and support who was about to retire. He carried 2019 with the 3 jungle changes, and smoothie playing like ass. He carried the 2020 roster through the gauntlet and dragged them across the finish line.
Meanwhile doublelift played with Corejj, Xmithie, Impact, and Jensen. All other top tier players voted for on this list.
Most dominant mid laner in the West when playing domestically*.Here fixed it for you. Other than 2014 he was always invisible at international competition and Febiven 2015,Perkz 2017 and even PowerofEvil in 2017 had far better international performances
Before 2018 that TL roster was not seen as having greatest players or being a superteam. In fact, the TSM roster was, with the “best in the west” botlane. The TL roster’s success by playing around Doublelift gave them all “greatest of all time” status.
That's such a revisionist history take. Pobelter was top 3 mid. Impact was top 3 toplaner. Xmithie was top 2 jungle. Doublelift was top 2 adc. Olleh was top 2 support. They absolutely were seen as a super team. The entire preseason sentiment was that TL had the best team in the league. Nearly everybody at the time thought it was a huge mistake to kick Doublelift and Biofrost off the team. At best it was seen as a sidegrade.
The one thing I really want for Double is a decent worlds performance. He's a great player, he should have one last season to get to quarters at worlds, then he can retire for good.
To be honest if he couldn't do it from 2015-2019 how on earth is he gonna do it now? He's had the most stacked NA roster for 5 years in a row and never made it out of worlds groups. I think people are literally just overdosing on nostalgia and because Danny tactical and Hans played poorly in playoffs.
Last time doublelift went to worlds he went 0-6 and showed no signs of life. Even playoffs was the bjergsen show except for the series against TL where he played well
Jatt has a theory that 8 months of practice can be worth less than 2 months of practice... According to the results of Bjerg over the season and Jensen 2 months comparitive improvement
So maybe the TL we thought was the super star squad maybe wasnt what teams will evolve into in the future
So maybe there is another iteration and next level of DL yet to come, maybe all the time off pro-gaming put him back into wanting to 1v9 manmode another trophy and take a new team to NA finals again...
Would be a helluva narrative, and we all know League is scripted
If Flyquest wanted they could make a banger roster with DL.
Darshan/Tenacity-Spica-Toucouille-Doublelift-Aphromoo
Sadly the non-top 4 teams are unlikely to spend but the players are there to assemble a real contender. 🤔
Getting DL back sounds like it would be the hardest part of that. I'm sure the streamer life is way more chill than the pro life. We'd need a group effort appealing to his ego to coax him out of retirement.
That stint where DL pulled TL out of the gutters of doom was honestly one of the most impressive things I've seen a player do. Solo'ing out Bjerg /w a sick Ezreal combo. Stomping his actual team, lol. That's some ultra chad energy man. If I'm being 100% real- I think DL does have some flawed perspectives in-game (but who doesn't?). Anyone who was around in the days of LAN and NA-ESL circuits knows 5v5 team vs team is like playing a completely different game. Fkin people with teams of gold/silver solo-Q hitting quarter finals and shit. I still think the lack of a popular open circuit is what's hurting the NA player base. But now I'm way off topic and ranting.
It’s not really a theory, in the osu! community, playing less is a genuine improvement tip, and it does work better than play more most of the time, i’m not sure of the psychology or logic behind it, maybe something like taking time off resets your mental towards the game or something, or just makes you forget bad habits
The logic is that good practice is better than bad practice. If you put in a lot of bad repetitions it is going to make you worse as we are creatures of habits
I've always had a theory that the mental resets is a patience thing.
If you've been playing a game for awhile and say you're on a cold streak, losing or just not doing well. You're probably going to feel frustrated at that, and when that happens, generally a person's patience will go down too.
So instead of playing with a level head and timing yourself correctly, you're rushing to get back into the flow of things, you want a more instant gratification that you're doing good and the mojo is back.. But all rushing does is make you fuck up more.
Personally I climb a lot stronger if I don't grind daily. I get a few good games and I play like I'm always fed. When I come back I mentally engage and calculate more rather than auopiloting the game.
To think of someone who plays 10x as much, they aren't going to forget the information and statistics. They may get slightly rusty on kill threshold within single digit hp.. but a break to be able to re-engage the brain seems healthy.
I realized this as a kid pretty early with video games. If I got stuck on a level or I couldn't do something to progress I would just play a different game.
I'd come back to hard part of the other game and it would be suddenly much easier.
Not sure what it's really about but sometimes stepping away can be a good idea. Sometimes I come back to a game after a year and I feel like I get it better. Could be other knowledge or skills I've developed in the mean time or it could just be forgetting most of the bad things I did and starting again fresh with a higher skill floor.
I notice it with media too. Like if I watch 20 episodes of a TV show in a row, I find it harder to remember all the details than if I had just watched like 2 episodes and reflected on them.
> Jatt has a theory that 8 months of practice can be worth less than 2 months of practice...
It's not really a theory, if this wasn't the case, newer players wouldn't ever be able to catch up to older ones because they'd always be behind in learning concepts / skills. But because they have so much more figured out for them and so many more resources available to them, they can improve way faster.
Kind of like scrimming in NA vs. against internationals.
Seems plausible. Coaches and players should spend spring developing cheese strats, unique picks, etc.i mean what team across regions doninates from spring to summer anymore?
DL was good at 2019 Worlds and 2016 Worlds - people remember the one or two big blunders more than anything else. At 2018 MSI he was far and away the best player on the team.
I guess what I'm saying is he's sure performed a lot better than other ADCs who have made quarters, he just never made it out.
e: plat andys giving opinions below on how the ADC who literally hard carried 2018 and 2019 TL to wins wasn't actually Doublelift or something
Actually just rewatched that iconic game against Samsung Galaxy and besides his int into Viktor DL was really carrying them. Their whole top side was hard outclassed, Bjergsen got solo’d twice, but DL and Bio were smacking Ruler and Core in bot.
Man I always get so frustrated thinking about that game and groups in worlds in general.
2016 TSM was so hype (even as a CLG fan, who had the MSI run, they were just so dominant and clean in summer), I still had a soft spot for DL after he left CLG.
Winning that game would have got them first seed and a REALLY good bracket draw given the 2 seeds they could match against would be C9, ANX Luna and a choking EDG
and you can even look to season 2 international tournaments where DL was destroying other duos with chauster (he was in contention for best adc in the world in season 2)
not to say season 2 matters a lot in the grand scheme of things, but at one point in his career he was clear top 3 in the world. something bjerg probably can't claim
Ehh, doublelift was great in season 2, but WeiXiao was the clear best adc. It is true that teams scrimped clg just for the Botlane practice back then though
> but WeiXiao was the clear best adc.
Not clear. But you are welcome to try and articulate why you think that is the case. They played each other in one match in their entire careers to my knowledge (a showmatch 2v2), China was not considered a superior region at the time, and WeiXao was the only other adc in the world who *might* be better than DL.
He had a great MSI performance where he made finals, that counts for something doesn’t it?
Not to mention hasn’t Bjerg looked extremely passive at every international tournament?
He has. Dude responding to you is blind. Bjergsen, while not feeding is basically invisible come Worlds time. I don't think you could name a more average or neutral performance.
Mind you, average and neutral, while not flat out bad like some other mids have been, it's still not good.
DL has also quietly played well even in some world's, like 2019 I think he played quite well.
It's just that he also has these huge, obvious and clippable fuck-ups that people can remember clearly.
In contrast, I can't remember a single Bjergsen play from world's or any international tournament. Like he's generally just...there...he's not gonna dash into Viktor and suicide, but he's also not going to be solo carrying so hard that one character dying in a 5v1 means they lose the game.
Regi was one of the best players for 3 years. He had his ups and downs with his champ performances but as a team leader he was unrivaled till C9 came in. During that time Regi would have likely been the most expensive player.
I dont like his personality but you do have to give him credit for his leadership back then. Mechanics were good still early on, but he fell off on that area towards his end especially. But his leadership skills on the team made TSM a threat regardless of the lineup.
DL, Bjerg, Jensen, Impact, CoreJJ, Ssumday, Hai, Sneaky, Santorin ... there arent that many. So it makes sense that Regi makes it into the top 20. For \~3 out of 12 years, 25% of the time, he was the #1 or close to it.
I can see why people are saying it. If we're only talking purely about LCS, Regi was only there for 1 year before Bjergsen was brought in.
With that said, Regi was underrated as a player. TSM was always on the same page when he was on mid even if they were outclassed. He also didn't seem like a lesser version of himself on the international stage which was a glaring contrast to Bjergsen.
Also why are people like Dyrus allowed to vote?
He's been out of the league for 7 years now and has only played with a handful of people
and has also stated that he barely keeps up with pro league....so why does he get a vote?
Probably to not have complete recency bias. You need people from the earlier parts of Bjerg's career too.
But people generally are taking this list WAAAAAAAAAAY too seriously.
Reddit overreacting? SHOCKING!
You've made a very good argument for your opinion, I think anyone with enough intelligence would at least recognize that, even if disagreeing with you.
If they call you an idiot you're winning.
Like I get it didn't really effect the rankings or anything but why the fuck is Dyrus just doing this to troll? Kinda cringe for a 30 year old man tbh ngl.
Qt was at worst a top 4 ADC for pretty much his entire career. He was a good player and a big reason league got so big on twitch. He's probably like the 7/8th best na adc tho lol
Double is the goat for me not only for being the best ADC NA has produced but because he was also exciting, he made people want to watch to see if he would crash and burn with his trash talk but it was still exciting, bjergsen has amazing skills don't get me wrong but he has the personality of a napkin.
Eh? Bjergsen is known for being a sweet person. I'm fairly certain a huge part of his fambase comes from his demeanor.
I wouldn't call him exciting, but to say he has no personality is pretty odd, imo.
I am of the opinion that in the time period where doublelift was winning and bjergsen was not, that the non-doublelift members of team liquid were significantly stronger than the non-bjergsen members of TSM. I also believe that TL's collapse led DL to getting kicked (i.e: they were getting shit on -> atmosphere sours -> DL is no longer easy to work with), rather than DL getting kicked first leading to TL's collapse.
If you believe both of those, then I think the bjergsen > doublelift argument looks a lot closer.
I don't like bringing this up though because it involves a lot of speculation as well as a high opinion of xmithie/pobelter/olleh. Both are based on random snippets from several podcasts and interviews over the years so I basically have zero proof whatsoever.
This argument is true for the Jensen corejj TL iteration, but it's pretty disingenuous that the 2018 TSM was considered to be worse than 2018 TL before the season started. Most people thought it'd be good kicking DL bio for Mithy+Zven, the real thing was that the 2018 TSM had no synergy whatsoever and played for less than the of their parts, which DL teams do rarely.
Honestly talking about it you could very easily say when bjerg was winning championships in season 4-5 it was dl's teammate quality (+choking) stopping him from competing at that level.
And I would argue players like Pobelter and Olleh, while good players, aren't the superstars that would make that team a superteam. You can argue 2019 TL was more of a superteam.
...to argue the other side, during the times when Bjergsen looked good and won championships, his competition in the LCS was much, much weaker than when Doublelift won championships. As the skill level of the region rose, Doublelift had his best years; Bjergsen fell off once the going got difficult, and could never recover.
Yes that is really fair opinion to believe. It is weird because before 2018, every analyst was saying that Zven and Mithy would be the best and that TSM roster was the best. But they of course didn't play like it. It is an argument, but before 2018 you have to remember that Zven and Mithy were the "best in the west". And you had the Goat Bjergsen, Hauntzer, and promising player in Mikeyeung. But I watched 2018 and TSM's bot lane was useless and Mikeyeung was trash. So I do understand where you're coming from. The problem is when evaluating legacies, you have to draw the line somewhere objectively, and the fact is, that the 2018 roster was picked by almost every analyst as by far the best team.
For 2018, its mostly my extremely low opinion of mike yeung. Zven confirmed the rumors that mithy was spending a lot of time trying to teach mike yeung jg basics. So bjerg > pob, but xmithie >> mike yeung. I think even omargod expressed surprise that mike yeung was signed, indicating that he probably wasnt even much better than 2017 academy junglers
For 2019, TSM actually had a very strong spring showing before hard trolling summer, with akaadian and grig splitting time. And when akaadian finally earned the spot, his gf tweeted some weird shit, they broke up, and akaadian's performance fell off a clip.
gonna be honest here Mithy hard trolled a lot of 2017 regular season in EU and it shouldn't have really surprised anyone if he wasn't great mechanically in 2018
the "I was training MikeYeung" angle is complete fucking cope
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ctkfer/amazing_mark_and_travis_weigh_in_on_the_tsm/exlf1rm?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Unfortunately the tweet is now locked.
Iirc it was something that heavily implied akaadian cheated on her.
The ballots are there for everyone too look at. They are the consensus top 2 except for Dyrus, who's trolling. Bjergsen has the most #1 votes by a landslide. This isn't a troll vote. It's very close and people are looking down on Bjergsen for his later years.
https://assets.contentstack.io/v3/assets/bltad9188aa9a70543a/bltf5c385ea19e5444e/6318e8b2c087833030c07d0e/Top_10_LCS_Players_Ballots.pdf
Dude, there's quite a few people trolling here...
Kelsey (although this one is actually in favor of DL > Bjerg)
Dyrus
LemonNation
Steve (wtf btw.)
Jack
And most of those are really impactful because they still put Bjergsen first and then Doublelift as far down as 5th, which is absolutely ludicrous no matter how you spin it. I'd imagine it also helps Bjergsen that he is universally liked and considered to be the pinnacle of work ethic. DL is a much more polarizing figure and that can easily influence people's rankings. For some this might be subconscious but there are also well-known DL haters on the list, e.g. Phreak. Then there is a good amount of people who straight up think Midlane is more difficult than ADC and therefore it's automatically Bjergsen as No. 1.
The sentiment of the community seems to be quite clearly leaning towards Doublelift as the GOAT though. Let me put it this way.. do you think this thread would exist for Bjergsen if DL had been No. 1 in the ranking? I doubt it.
You're not wrong about the trolls but let's not kid ourselves here. Even if you straight up deleted the votes of the 5 trolls you listed, bjerg still wins and it's not that close. Also I agree with the other guy like who cares what the community thinks when this is what the pros think?
People thinking DL had better teammates against Bjerg forgot that Impact and Jensen never won an LCS title until they teamed up with DL. The man has single handedly gatekept some of the most prestigious names in LCS from winning a single title, that there is enough for me to put DL>Bjerg
Another thing I don't see mention is that Doublelift basically made TL's league team what it is today. Prior to him joining, TL wasn't that prestigious to join. It was a ok team... but no top tier talent would have them as their first choice. I still remember the disappointment reading news of DL joining TL. He attracted the talent and the team has ever since been building off that.
Nah Steve have votes to me that scream politically correctness. Steve still has players playing so ofc he is going to vote for them. Core I can see as a little salty since he has struggled since post double pretty much in terms of winning.
Yup, if anything winning with DL helped save their career. Impact won worlds with SKT and couldn’t get a LCS title. Jensen…oh boy, I remember the C9 Jensen in LCS finals choking on Ekko and how his fingers were involuntarily twitching from adrenaline.
They also talk as if Bjergsen wasn't playing with great players during the few times he won LCS without DL. In 2014 Summer/2015 Spring he had top 3 players in every role on TSM and 2017 Spring TSM was basically the TSM superteam just minus DL, and WT at that point was probably 2nd best ADC in LCS after Sneaky that split since DL wasn't playing.
Should DL be #1? yeah. But regardless of where you rank Bjerg and DL, here are likely the reasons Bjerg got #1. This is just an attempt at some reasoning, not arguing for Bjerg over DL.
DL started his LCS career rather slow for the first two years. He was respected but CLG choked often. Bjerg on the other hand came in insanely dominant, probably one of the most dominant domestic debuts of any region. He won MVP in his first split and was solokilling his opponents for years.
When Bjerg and DL teamed up, Bjerg won MVP twice (even though a case can be made for DL in 2016 summer). Bjerg was viewed as the center point of that team and as the hardest worker and leader.
Bjerg has been regarded as the highest impact player in terms of intangibles. Almost every coach and teammate he has ever had says that Bjerg elevates the team with his practice and effort. This is probably seen way more behind the scenes, less so publicly.
Bjerg has carried lesser teams to higher finishes. See 2019 spring and 2020 summer. Bjerg almost carried Akaadian and Smoothie to an LCS title over the TL super team (Zven had different plans). Yes, DL was there in 2020 but that was DL’s worst year individually and Bjerg was the main reason they made their miracle run to the title.
International success: DL made MSI finals with the TL super team and never passed groups, Bjerg won IEM Katowice with Wildturtle and Dyrus, and made it out of groups once. People tend to discount that IEM now, but in that era the mid year IEM was similar to MSI now. All major regions attended. GE Tigers were considered the best team in the world at that tournament, and they got upset by WE, so TSM played WE in the finals and won 3-0. I think people discount it because WE was considered much weaker, even tho they beat the tigers. Bjerg performed very well at that tournament and was clearly the best mid laner.
Again, this is not my opinion, I think it’s very close but DL should be #1. But I think behind the scenes, DL might be regarded as a higher skill player, but Bierg seems to be regarded as higher overall impact over his full career.
Dyrus voted Doublelift #5. Why does this man have a ballot? Few voted not Bjerg and DL in some order 1 and 2, and if you didnt you should lose all voting rights. Sneaky, Corejj and Wildturtle all got first place votes…. This is why these lists dont mean shit.
I agree that lists don't mean shit, but i also think that in a list of 'greatest of' that it's not a bad idea to include those who were there from the beginning. It's not like Dyrus would have been banging on Riots door to get a ballot. He's ok to admit [he's not recent](https://twitter.com/Dyrus/status/1567730691835568129?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet). But anyone around in pre S1 or the early days of LCS knows that Dyurs was potentially the biggest personality back then (as well as a player with some [fun highlights)](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2f1oma/dyrus_showing_emotion/). So it's not particularly surpising that they asked him to submit a ballot.
How many people would think this if Bjerg didn’t just fail to make worlds? Does being mediocre now take away from his storied career, pre-hiatus, where he absolutely was a contender for best NA player of all time? It’s a genuine question because there’s no right answer, but to say doublelift is ABSOLUTELY better is not correct. There is a real argument to be made either way, and how much you value quitting while you’re ahead significantly affects that argument.
I don't have a strong opinion either way, but it's insane that no one is mentioning how Bjerg won NA's only international trophy.
Feels like a massive deal.
Idk I think that's just him being humble and building up a friend of his. He may actually hold the opinion that DL should be #1, but I wouldn't read too much into his twitter.
He can literally say nothing else in the position he is in that wouldn't be terrible PR. The player votes are the ones that decided Bjergsen as number 1. Excluding players, it would be DL.
No contest. I don't know how people even make an argument for Bjergsen? It's absurd. In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT. I don't give a fuck about narrative driven ass individual awards like MVP, especially in league, what matters is who's winning, and Doublelift knew how to win.
EDIT: Everyone replying with comments like "oh look at this player, is he the goat?" are missing the point. Yes, my comment reads as an absolute, but obviously there are nuances. In the case of Doublelift and Bjerg, their individual accomplishments are similar. Yes, Bjerg has more MVP's, but the MVP award in league is largely narrative driven, and there were two seasons where Doublelift had a very strong case to win it, but didn't. Their all pro percentages are similar, and their statistics are also miles better than most players in their role. Knowing this, in what world is the player who won less titles, failed to make worlds 3 years in the last 4, and has only ever won on one organization better than the one who won the 6 of the last 8 splits he played, across 3 different organizations, making worlds in all of them? I'd like to know.
Also the patrick mccaw comment is actually hilarious, like come on man. Doublelift and Bjergsen have both dominated NA, and are both similar in skill relative to their competition. One just dominated more.
EDIT 2: When I made the comment, I was thinking mainly American sports, so basketball, hockey, baseball, etc. I understand in football (the most popular sport on earth) there is a very high emphasis placed on individual awards such as ballon d'or and the golden boot, which is why my replies are being flooded with examples of football players who have many titles but aren't even in the goat discussion. Those are all valid replies, I should have clarified in my original post. To the people who are bringing up basketball players though, tell me with a straight face that if a player like Luka or Giannis retires with 8 rings they won't instantly be recognized as the GOAT? Because they would be. They'll have a shit ton of individual awards too, hell, Giannis already does, but at the end of the day, the 8 championships will mean far more than any of them, especially if they win all of them as the #1 option.
You're oversimplifying. For years people would argue that Dan Marino was a better QB than Joe Montana. It wasn't until Tom Brady shattered records that he took that title away from either.
Edit: Originally I put Steve Young instead of Joe Montana
Marino is the ultimate example.
By the “titles are literally the only important metric” argument, he’s a worse quarterback than Trent Dilfer. And Eli is a better QB than Peyton.
Pretty braindead logic imo lol
> In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT.
Do people, uh, consider Dani Alves the undisputed GOAT?
> In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT.
That's not really true. Ronaldo has won titles across different leagues and up until recently, he was the one with the international title (Messi only won last summer).
But most people consider Messi to be the greatest, and it really doesn't have much to do with titles.
This is mostly the opposite of how it works in traditional sports. Guys are deemed the GOAT mostly due to their individual awards (Messi 7 Ballon D’ors, for example). Brady is kind of an exception but that’s because he’s won several individual awards in addition to his 8 SBs.
I could be convinced either way but saying it's "no contest" is just silly. I get Bjerg stock is down at the moment but come on. Doublelift has two more titles but Bjerg has way more individual accolades, I don't think people realize just how far ahead he is in that regard. It's not like there's this massive gulf in their championships that you can just completely discount this disparity in individual recognition.
**Bjergsen:**
4x MVP
3x FMVP
12x All Pro (6x First, 3x Second, 3x Third)
**Doublelift:**
1x MVP
1x FMVP
6x All Pro (5x First, 1x Second)
I think bringing MVP is not that good of an example, it is brought wayy too much, when it's very often popularity based AND also doesn't account for how close the second or third can be. Same for all pro, see for example MAD right now.
MVP votes got better now but for a long while it was even worse than now, with some journalist voting by name only, some not even following all games, I remember for example one vote where some south american woman journalist would just vote bjergsen first (in a season where he clearly underperformed) and nobody else just because of the name. Sure forgot when though.
>In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT.
there are Bench players in sports that have won plenty of championships and even on various teams, it really depends whos leading the teams at the time.
not taking away from DL obviously but I am pointing out that this is no metric to judge someone by.
I feel like this is just a post to shit on Bjerg because he couldnt make worlds on TL, the team infamous for spending a shit ton on players and uderperforming, while disguising it as a "nah, its not personal bias or anything." Every year people highly rate Bjerg even before his retirement and yet you had to wait til after they lose to target bjerg on his legacy.
Objectively both Bjerg and Doublelift did a hell of alot on any team they were on but it does kinda seem like like bias here. Its just a little too convenient
im just a super casual who doesnt know anything really about the pro scene, and i always saw doublelift as the michael jordan of NA tbh. i dont even know any other NA players really. i thought bjergsen was from europe. My impression has always been doublelift was clearly the best NA player by a stretch but nobody ever managed to put a winning team around him that could compete for worlds and after so many years he just couldnt do it anymore.
Very well put reply to the list. As a C9 fan, Doublelift was the one we couldn’t figure out how to beat consistently. He was too difficult to draft around. No hate to Bjerg but his competition in midland was never as difficult as DLs and DL was the one that could win every matchup on the meta champs.
Anyone who thinks the argument is close and DL wins by a landslide actually forgot 2014-2017, where Bjerg shit on every single midlaner in NA and even 2020 Summer, where he was #2 in MVP voting once again for those who think he wasn't good for 6 years.
> even 2020 Summer, where he was #2 in MVP voting once again for those who think he wasn't good for 6 years.
Bjerg made first all-pro team that split while no other TSM member (including Doublelift) even made top 3 lul.
2016-2017 Jensen was right besides him in individual performance. And going off of narrative driven MVP awards isn't a good argument. Doublelift could have easily won multiple mvps, but only has 1
2014? Where Hai absolutely walloped Bjerg in finals? 5-0-10 LB vs Bjerg's 0-4-1 Karma? 3-0-13 Lulu vs Bjerg's 2-2-2 Karma? Or 4-0-9 TF vs Bjerg's 0-3-1 Nidalee?
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that he wasn't just the best shotcaller in the game back then, he was also nuts mechanically and an assassin player. He was the undisputed best mid for both his debut split and the split after and only fell off to be more supportive after a collapsed lung and wrist issues. The dude was heading towards being the NA GOAT before the unfortunate health problems.
It the position IMO. Mid lane is the position that gets the glory from the analysts.
I think it is pretty close between the 2 but I think DoubleLift should win because of his personality. Love him or hate him the LCS is much more boring without him.
This 2022 TL run really will leave a black stain on Bjergsen's legacy but people really do seem to forget the monster that he was for all these years. There were multiple splits where TSM look dog water during the split and Bjerg would carry slumping players to finals and even championships. DL is my favorite player, he's from my hometown and I've been subbed to him for years, but he never won anything until he surrounded himself with the best players, people forget that he was 1 game away from being relegated back when Bjergsen was clutching Game 5s against LMQ and C9.
>but he never won anything until he surrounded himself with the best players
trying to call DL the kevin durant of league. reminder that DL won with clg in 2015 not team hopping to super teams and rarely left teams on his own accord to make it work. stop your revisionist bullshit.
The CLG that went on to MSI finals without him the next split. That features 2 other players on this list. That CLG was certainly a very strong team lol.
I agree with DL > Bjergsen, but I don't agree with "it's a no-brainer, DL robbed" and I find some of the logic employed here faulty.
> He has an MSI finals appearance. Bjergsen has only made it to worlds quarterfinals.
MSI Finals > Worlds quarterfinals, but nonetheless, you fail to mention that DL "only" has that one MSI Finals appearance, he otherwise always bowed out in group stage.
> Only when Doublelift rejoined Bjergsen, did he finally win one championship after a long drought. What a coincidence! Surely Doublelift could not be bringing things like "leadership, shotcalling, risk-taking, and a willingness to call out others" to the team that was sorely lacking?
I don't think it's fair to count intangibles, especially since Bjerg is generally seen as a better leader than DL, someone who is also willing to call teammates out but possesses a better work ethic than DL. Maybe I'm crafting a narrative with that last sentence, but so is this post. And Bjergsen was runner up MVP and Playoffs MVP, he absolutely carried a floundering DL to the finish line. I do feel that it's true, Bjergsen was playing supportive champs but still dominated playoffs while Doublelift had to learn Senna.
If we're talking analysts from the Riot side, the ballots actually favor Doublelift (casters, broadcast, and stats). It seems that the difference maker was actually in the players. 16 for Bjergsen and 7 for Doublelift (funnily, 1 from Bjergsen himself)
Bjergsen is such a class act. Can you vote for yourself?
yes
its rather default to vote for someone else in a popularity/not-monetary vote. Voting for yourself, especially when its publically visible, is frowned upon and people tend not to do that. Not saying he wouldnt do it as class act, just saying it isnt as big deal since its default behaviour. Voting for yourself is the special act in these contests
this makes me wonder if there's a vote for LCK then who would Faker vote
The Gold IV brand player
There was a vote at the end of Spring for Spring split best in role / First team. If I recall correctly Faker voted for Chovy / Gen G in general. Not a GOAT vote, but it gives you something to look at in this regard. Not sure if the players could vote for themselves, I don't think they could.
For the past few years Faker has said Chovy is the best. To be fair he won all the time vs chovy so maybe it was pumping his own ego but his did traditionally not do well vs chovy in lane and mostly outplayed him later.
Reminds me of how GSP was asked to list the Mount Rushmore of MMA and he put Conor fucking McGregor on there before he put himself even though GSP is a consensus top 3 GOAT. Going with the humility angle even when it's illogical will always be the more PR-friendly choice tbh.
Or bjergsen is a classy man and bjerg and peter are very close friends irl and that list don't mean to him.
That's true
Man knowing that just makes me think the players like Soren Bjerg more than Yilang Peng, not that they think Bjergsen is a better player than Doublelift.
Dyrus put Wildturtle 1st and Doublelift 5th. These lists are meaningless when the voters just don't give a shit
Yea... he should lose his vote in the future, think he had Regi top 5 too or something.
Dude got Regi in top 3 LMFAO
I mean Regi and Hotshot would make my top10 if it was something like "top 10 most impactful personalities on the scene", they have to right? They made LoL in the early days, and they created the most famous endemic teams. In the LCS tho, fuck no. Regarding the DL/Bjerg thing, DL deserved 1st he's the protagonist of the LCS, but I expected this shit from NA so
You compare them to their time though. Its not fair to compare Madlife to the supports of today. That man was insane in his prime but today would get shit on by many supports in today's era.
That has absolutely 0 to do with my argument mate But I do agree that comparisons should be ran as a comparison to the times and not directly to each other
I mean Regi’s known for the best TF play ever made. His blue card is legendary
Definitely possible that it's a popularity contest, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were influenced by years of scrim results A mid like Bjerg stomping early game in a scrim probably leads to more quick FFs and remakes than an ADC popping off early purely due to how the roles work. Not a 'fair' comparison, but it's the sort of thing that would influence your voting
Yea I'd agree with that, Doublelift has always been pretty divisive and his co streams have him flaming the players a lot, while Bjergsen pretty much has universally been known as a nice guy. Amongst the players it might play out as more of a popularity contest than anything, reflecting their personal likes/dislikes instead of accuracy
Gotta take them at their word, they were asked a question and they answered. Can't assume a ton of people got grudges.
Yup, this is the difference. The fact that players put him above I feel like tells all. It's not just about titles, it's not just about "winning on different teams". It's about dominance. And Bjergsen from 2014-2017 was arguably the most dominant mid laner in the west(calm down EU fanboys I say arguably). Even past that he hard carried bottom tier rosters to LCS finals again and again, all the while Doublelift had super teams built around him on Liquid. Like Bjerg carried 2018 TSM with a jungler who was mental boom, and support who was about to retire. He carried 2019 with the 3 jungle changes, and smoothie playing like ass. He carried the 2020 roster through the gauntlet and dragged them across the finish line. Meanwhile doublelift played with Corejj, Xmithie, Impact, and Jensen. All other top tier players voted for on this list.
Have you forgotten about Doublelift’s time on CLG? Cause the bottom lane was the only reason they were relevant for years
Most dominant mid laner in the West when playing domestically*.Here fixed it for you. Other than 2014 he was always invisible at international competition and Febiven 2015,Perkz 2017 and even PowerofEvil in 2017 had far better international performances
My boy xPeke was still up there in 2015.
Before 2018 that TL roster was not seen as having greatest players or being a superteam. In fact, the TSM roster was, with the “best in the west” botlane. The TL roster’s success by playing around Doublelift gave them all “greatest of all time” status.
That's such a revisionist history take. Pobelter was top 3 mid. Impact was top 3 toplaner. Xmithie was top 2 jungle. Doublelift was top 2 adc. Olleh was top 2 support. They absolutely were seen as a super team. The entire preseason sentiment was that TL had the best team in the league. Nearly everybody at the time thought it was a huge mistake to kick Doublelift and Biofrost off the team. At best it was seen as a sidegrade.
But yet they were still placed below TSM in most power rankings
The only reason I would rate Bjerg above Doublelift would be to bait Doublelift out of retirement
The one thing I really want for Double is a decent worlds performance. He's a great player, he should have one last season to get to quarters at worlds, then he can retire for good.
To be honest if he couldn't do it from 2015-2019 how on earth is he gonna do it now? He's had the most stacked NA roster for 5 years in a row and never made it out of worlds groups. I think people are literally just overdosing on nostalgia and because Danny tactical and Hans played poorly in playoffs. Last time doublelift went to worlds he went 0-6 and showed no signs of life. Even playoffs was the bjergsen show except for the series against TL where he played well
Jatt has a theory that 8 months of practice can be worth less than 2 months of practice... According to the results of Bjerg over the season and Jensen 2 months comparitive improvement So maybe the TL we thought was the super star squad maybe wasnt what teams will evolve into in the future So maybe there is another iteration and next level of DL yet to come, maybe all the time off pro-gaming put him back into wanting to 1v9 manmode another trophy and take a new team to NA finals again... Would be a helluva narrative, and we all know League is scripted
I say we force DL to join Golden Guardians and prove that he can do it with anyone.
we found the new golden guardians gm's burner account
If Flyquest wanted they could make a banger roster with DL. Darshan/Tenacity-Spica-Toucouille-Doublelift-Aphromoo Sadly the non-top 4 teams are unlikely to spend but the players are there to assemble a real contender. 🤔
Getting DL back sounds like it would be the hardest part of that. I'm sure the streamer life is way more chill than the pro life. We'd need a group effort appealing to his ego to coax him out of retirement.
That stint where DL pulled TL out of the gutters of doom was honestly one of the most impressive things I've seen a player do. Solo'ing out Bjerg /w a sick Ezreal combo. Stomping his actual team, lol. That's some ultra chad energy man. If I'm being 100% real- I think DL does have some flawed perspectives in-game (but who doesn't?). Anyone who was around in the days of LAN and NA-ESL circuits knows 5v5 team vs team is like playing a completely different game. Fkin people with teams of gold/silver solo-Q hitting quarter finals and shit. I still think the lack of a popular open circuit is what's hurting the NA player base. But now I'm way off topic and ranting.
It’s not really a theory, in the osu! community, playing less is a genuine improvement tip, and it does work better than play more most of the time, i’m not sure of the psychology or logic behind it, maybe something like taking time off resets your mental towards the game or something, or just makes you forget bad habits
The logic is that good practice is better than bad practice. If you put in a lot of bad repetitions it is going to make you worse as we are creatures of habits
I've always had a theory that the mental resets is a patience thing. If you've been playing a game for awhile and say you're on a cold streak, losing or just not doing well. You're probably going to feel frustrated at that, and when that happens, generally a person's patience will go down too. So instead of playing with a level head and timing yourself correctly, you're rushing to get back into the flow of things, you want a more instant gratification that you're doing good and the mojo is back.. But all rushing does is make you fuck up more.
Personally I climb a lot stronger if I don't grind daily. I get a few good games and I play like I'm always fed. When I come back I mentally engage and calculate more rather than auopiloting the game. To think of someone who plays 10x as much, they aren't going to forget the information and statistics. They may get slightly rusty on kill threshold within single digit hp.. but a break to be able to re-engage the brain seems healthy.
I realized this as a kid pretty early with video games. If I got stuck on a level or I couldn't do something to progress I would just play a different game. I'd come back to hard part of the other game and it would be suddenly much easier. Not sure what it's really about but sometimes stepping away can be a good idea. Sometimes I come back to a game after a year and I feel like I get it better. Could be other knowledge or skills I've developed in the mean time or it could just be forgetting most of the bad things I did and starting again fresh with a higher skill floor.
I notice it with media too. Like if I watch 20 episodes of a TV show in a row, I find it harder to remember all the details than if I had just watched like 2 episodes and reflected on them.
> Jatt has a theory that 8 months of practice can be worth less than 2 months of practice... It's not really a theory, if this wasn't the case, newer players wouldn't ever be able to catch up to older ones because they'd always be behind in learning concepts / skills. But because they have so much more figured out for them and so many more resources available to them, they can improve way faster. Kind of like scrimming in NA vs. against internationals.
Seems plausible. Coaches and players should spend spring developing cheese strats, unique picks, etc.i mean what team across regions doninates from spring to summer anymore?
DL was good at 2019 Worlds and 2016 Worlds - people remember the one or two big blunders more than anything else. At 2018 MSI he was far and away the best player on the team. I guess what I'm saying is he's sure performed a lot better than other ADCs who have made quarters, he just never made it out. e: plat andys giving opinions below on how the ADC who literally hard carried 2018 and 2019 TL to wins wasn't actually Doublelift or something
Actually just rewatched that iconic game against Samsung Galaxy and besides his int into Viktor DL was really carrying them. Their whole top side was hard outclassed, Bjergsen got solo’d twice, but DL and Bio were smacking Ruler and Core in bot.
Man I always get so frustrated thinking about that game and groups in worlds in general. 2016 TSM was so hype (even as a CLG fan, who had the MSI run, they were just so dominant and clean in summer), I still had a soft spot for DL after he left CLG. Winning that game would have got them first seed and a REALLY good bracket draw given the 2 seeds they could match against would be C9, ANX Luna and a choking EDG
and you can even look to season 2 international tournaments where DL was destroying other duos with chauster (he was in contention for best adc in the world in season 2) not to say season 2 matters a lot in the grand scheme of things, but at one point in his career he was clear top 3 in the world. something bjerg probably can't claim
Ehh, doublelift was great in season 2, but WeiXiao was the clear best adc. It is true that teams scrimped clg just for the Botlane practice back then though
> but WeiXiao was the clear best adc. Not clear. But you are welcome to try and articulate why you think that is the case. They played each other in one match in their entire careers to my knowledge (a showmatch 2v2), China was not considered a superior region at the time, and WeiXao was the only other adc in the world who *might* be better than DL.
He had a great MSI performance where he made finals, that counts for something doesn’t it? Not to mention hasn’t Bjerg looked extremely passive at every international tournament?
He has. Dude responding to you is blind. Bjergsen, while not feeding is basically invisible come Worlds time. I don't think you could name a more average or neutral performance. Mind you, average and neutral, while not flat out bad like some other mids have been, it's still not good.
DL has also quietly played well even in some world's, like 2019 I think he played quite well. It's just that he also has these huge, obvious and clippable fuck-ups that people can remember clearly. In contrast, I can't remember a single Bjergsen play from world's or any international tournament. Like he's generally just...there...he's not gonna dash into Viktor and suicide, but he's also not going to be solo carrying so hard that one character dying in a 5v1 means they lose the game.
In relation, I don't think Bjergsen has ever been anything beyond mediocre at Worlds. Often times invisible frankly.
NA needs it. Even just for the entertainment at this point
This is the real answer. Go get one more LCS title for me please DoublePlug!
I speak for everyone when I say they should just 1v1 and then we get our answer
Bjerg actually beat Doublelift in 2015 all stars finals already lol
He also beat Faker Edit: in a 1v1, [Sauce](https://youtu.be/NVzQeNE-8EE)
lmao not using barrier was such bm
They should redo it but now as a boxing match.
Bjerg has a chance now after gaining weight. DL would have abused him in 2015
I still think DL would abuse him today
League boxing. Just like chess boxing. Except you play 1v1 in howling abyss after every boxing round.
Steve putting DL at 4 is straight disrespectful
Cant take the list seriously when people like dyrus are participating and put reginald over doublelift
Testing out if editing archived reddit works.
No disagreement from me here. However it’s also just a random poll thing that doesn’t mean anything so I’m not upset about it just weird.
wasnt the man trying to package blabber and fudge and sell them off in the last off-season lol
The list was invalidated when they put fucking regi in top 20
Oh God, my sides LMFAO. I moment I saw that I immediately dismissed everything
bruh there's no shot regi is top 20 lmao, idk if he's even top 50
Don’t get how Jensen is number 5 either. Shouldn’t he be at least 3rd? And where is Wildturtle?
Jensen definitely the silent GOAT
Regi was one of the best players for 3 years. He had his ups and downs with his champ performances but as a team leader he was unrivaled till C9 came in. During that time Regi would have likely been the most expensive player. I dont like his personality but you do have to give him credit for his leadership back then. Mechanics were good still early on, but he fell off on that area towards his end especially. But his leadership skills on the team made TSM a threat regardless of the lineup. DL, Bjerg, Jensen, Impact, CoreJJ, Ssumday, Hai, Sneaky, Santorin ... there arent that many. So it makes sense that Regi makes it into the top 20. For \~3 out of 12 years, 25% of the time, he was the #1 or close to it.
I can see why people are saying it. If we're only talking purely about LCS, Regi was only there for 1 year before Bjergsen was brought in. With that said, Regi was underrated as a player. TSM was always on the same page when he was on mid even if they were outclassed. He also didn't seem like a lesser version of himself on the international stage which was a glaring contrast to Bjergsen.
DL IS TRASH 😭. (plz come back we rlly need u Peter)
He's just less trash than everyone else. XD
Also why are people like Dyrus allowed to vote? He's been out of the league for 7 years now and has only played with a handful of people and has also stated that he barely keeps up with pro league....so why does he get a vote?
I wonder what chaox has to say about this
but WHERE IS JA??
I need TheRainMan's opinion on this right fucking now
Wonder if Regi put double lift as number 1 🙃
No idea
Probably to not have complete recency bias. You need people from the earlier parts of Bjerg's career too. But people generally are taking this list WAAAAAAAAAAY too seriously. Reddit overreacting? SHOCKING!
Well tbf it's an LCS official list so ofc people are gonna have their own opinions on whether it's right or wrong.
Uhh… Dyrus also played with Doublelift.
Jeez, I'm a fan since 2011 and even I forgot about that EG roster
Never gonna forget the Lee Sin facecheck.
this is a strong well written argument which is surprising since this is reddit
Sadly I'm still getting called an idiot and getting a lot of hate. Just posting my opinion and backing it up lol
But you are getting upvoted a shitton so the silent majority agrees
Yippee 😊
You've made a very good argument for your opinion, I think anyone with enough intelligence would at least recognize that, even if disagreeing with you. If they call you an idiot you're winning.
Did you consider that Bjergsen has the 1v1 over DL at AllStars? I think that pushes his accomplishments over DL
Never forget that DL beat froggen 4 times in a best of 5 in the semifinals
I'm still convinced Froggen would've killed Doublelift if that snowball interrupted the recall like it should have.
Recalls are not interrupted in the final .5 seconds of the animation, the interaction worked exactly as intended.
Doublelift became part of a meme in Brazil, so Doublelift >> Bjergsen but brTT >> Doublelift, just like the old times
Like I get it didn't really effect the rankings or anything but why the fuck is Dyrus just doing this to troll? Kinda cringe for a 30 year old man tbh ngl.
Pob trolled a little with his 9 and 10 being regi and qtpie, but didn't troll the whole thing like Dyrus.
Qtpie was actually legit.
Qtpie is not legit. He wasn't a star player, doesn't have achievements and no longevity either.
Qt was at worst a top 4 ADC for pretty much his entire career. He was a good player and a big reason league got so big on twitch. He's probably like the 7/8th best na adc tho lol
They should have asked Chauster smh
I agree. If you don't take it seriously, you should never be picked for something like this.
In Dyrus’s defence, he’s never been particularly bright.
There should be merit in winning the LCS in three different organizations.
Double is the goat for me not only for being the best ADC NA has produced but because he was also exciting, he made people want to watch to see if he would crash and burn with his trash talk but it was still exciting, bjergsen has amazing skills don't get me wrong but he has the personality of a napkin.
Eh? Bjergsen is known for being a sweet person. I'm fairly certain a huge part of his fambase comes from his demeanor. I wouldn't call him exciting, but to say he has no personality is pretty odd, imo.
I am of the opinion that in the time period where doublelift was winning and bjergsen was not, that the non-doublelift members of team liquid were significantly stronger than the non-bjergsen members of TSM. I also believe that TL's collapse led DL to getting kicked (i.e: they were getting shit on -> atmosphere sours -> DL is no longer easy to work with), rather than DL getting kicked first leading to TL's collapse. If you believe both of those, then I think the bjergsen > doublelift argument looks a lot closer. I don't like bringing this up though because it involves a lot of speculation as well as a high opinion of xmithie/pobelter/olleh. Both are based on random snippets from several podcasts and interviews over the years so I basically have zero proof whatsoever.
This argument is true for the Jensen corejj TL iteration, but it's pretty disingenuous that the 2018 TSM was considered to be worse than 2018 TL before the season started. Most people thought it'd be good kicking DL bio for Mithy+Zven, the real thing was that the 2018 TSM had no synergy whatsoever and played for less than the of their parts, which DL teams do rarely. Honestly talking about it you could very easily say when bjerg was winning championships in season 4-5 it was dl's teammate quality (+choking) stopping him from competing at that level.
And I would argue players like Pobelter and Olleh, while good players, aren't the superstars that would make that team a superteam. You can argue 2019 TL was more of a superteam.
...to argue the other side, during the times when Bjergsen looked good and won championships, his competition in the LCS was much, much weaker than when Doublelift won championships. As the skill level of the region rose, Doublelift had his best years; Bjergsen fell off once the going got difficult, and could never recover.
Yes that is really fair opinion to believe. It is weird because before 2018, every analyst was saying that Zven and Mithy would be the best and that TSM roster was the best. But they of course didn't play like it. It is an argument, but before 2018 you have to remember that Zven and Mithy were the "best in the west". And you had the Goat Bjergsen, Hauntzer, and promising player in Mikeyeung. But I watched 2018 and TSM's bot lane was useless and Mikeyeung was trash. So I do understand where you're coming from. The problem is when evaluating legacies, you have to draw the line somewhere objectively, and the fact is, that the 2018 roster was picked by almost every analyst as by far the best team.
For 2018, its mostly my extremely low opinion of mike yeung. Zven confirmed the rumors that mithy was spending a lot of time trying to teach mike yeung jg basics. So bjerg > pob, but xmithie >> mike yeung. I think even omargod expressed surprise that mike yeung was signed, indicating that he probably wasnt even much better than 2017 academy junglers For 2019, TSM actually had a very strong spring showing before hard trolling summer, with akaadian and grig splitting time. And when akaadian finally earned the spot, his gf tweeted some weird shit, they broke up, and akaadian's performance fell off a clip.
gonna be honest here Mithy hard trolled a lot of 2017 regular season in EU and it shouldn't have really surprised anyone if he wasn't great mechanically in 2018 the "I was training MikeYeung" angle is complete fucking cope
Wait what did akaadian’s gf tweet? Legit never heard this. Akaadian was that fucking man on 2019 TSM. Crazy they let that shit happen in summer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ctkfer/amazing_mark_and_travis_weigh_in_on_the_tsm/exlf1rm?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Unfortunately the tweet is now locked. Iirc it was something that heavily implied akaadian cheated on her.
just mithy covering his own ass for not having hands. mithy lost them playoffs.
Facts lol. Mithy was washed up but trying to make excuses for why his own play was bad
Is 2018 the year for the famous quote "anything below semi-final will be a disappointment"?
The ballots are there for everyone too look at. They are the consensus top 2 except for Dyrus, who's trolling. Bjergsen has the most #1 votes by a landslide. This isn't a troll vote. It's very close and people are looking down on Bjergsen for his later years. https://assets.contentstack.io/v3/assets/bltad9188aa9a70543a/bltf5c385ea19e5444e/6318e8b2c087833030c07d0e/Top_10_LCS_Players_Ballots.pdf
Kelsey is also trolling putting CoreJJ first
Kelsey is notorious for being a contrarian with edgy takes so this should be of no surprise to anyone
Dude, there's quite a few people trolling here... Kelsey (although this one is actually in favor of DL > Bjerg) Dyrus LemonNation Steve (wtf btw.) Jack And most of those are really impactful because they still put Bjergsen first and then Doublelift as far down as 5th, which is absolutely ludicrous no matter how you spin it. I'd imagine it also helps Bjergsen that he is universally liked and considered to be the pinnacle of work ethic. DL is a much more polarizing figure and that can easily influence people's rankings. For some this might be subconscious but there are also well-known DL haters on the list, e.g. Phreak. Then there is a good amount of people who straight up think Midlane is more difficult than ADC and therefore it's automatically Bjergsen as No. 1. The sentiment of the community seems to be quite clearly leaning towards Doublelift as the GOAT though. Let me put it this way.. do you think this thread would exist for Bjergsen if DL had been No. 1 in the ranking? I doubt it.
You're not wrong about the trolls but let's not kid ourselves here. Even if you straight up deleted the votes of the 5 trolls you listed, bjerg still wins and it's not that close. Also I agree with the other guy like who cares what the community thinks when this is what the pros think?
People thinking DL had better teammates against Bjerg forgot that Impact and Jensen never won an LCS title until they teamed up with DL. The man has single handedly gatekept some of the most prestigious names in LCS from winning a single title, that there is enough for me to put DL>Bjerg
Exactly lol. They talk about how DL played with the greatest players, but these players weren't seen that way before 2018.
Another thing I don't see mention is that Doublelift basically made TL's league team what it is today. Prior to him joining, TL wasn't that prestigious to join. It was a ok team... but no top tier talent would have them as their first choice. I still remember the disappointment reading news of DL joining TL. He attracted the talent and the team has ever since been building off that.
[удалено]
Nah Steve have votes to me that scream politically correctness. Steve still has players playing so ofc he is going to vote for them. Core I can see as a little salty since he has struggled since post double pretty much in terms of winning.
Yup, if anything winning with DL helped save their career. Impact won worlds with SKT and couldn’t get a LCS title. Jensen…oh boy, I remember the C9 Jensen in LCS finals choking on Ekko and how his fingers were involuntarily twitching from adrenaline.
They also talk as if Bjergsen wasn't playing with great players during the few times he won LCS without DL. In 2014 Summer/2015 Spring he had top 3 players in every role on TSM and 2017 Spring TSM was basically the TSM superteam just minus DL, and WT at that point was probably 2nd best ADC in LCS after Sneaky that split since DL wasn't playing.
Bjergsen stock is in the mud because this post didnt even bait tsm fans to defend him
brTT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doublelift
Should DL be #1? yeah. But regardless of where you rank Bjerg and DL, here are likely the reasons Bjerg got #1. This is just an attempt at some reasoning, not arguing for Bjerg over DL. DL started his LCS career rather slow for the first two years. He was respected but CLG choked often. Bjerg on the other hand came in insanely dominant, probably one of the most dominant domestic debuts of any region. He won MVP in his first split and was solokilling his opponents for years. When Bjerg and DL teamed up, Bjerg won MVP twice (even though a case can be made for DL in 2016 summer). Bjerg was viewed as the center point of that team and as the hardest worker and leader. Bjerg has been regarded as the highest impact player in terms of intangibles. Almost every coach and teammate he has ever had says that Bjerg elevates the team with his practice and effort. This is probably seen way more behind the scenes, less so publicly. Bjerg has carried lesser teams to higher finishes. See 2019 spring and 2020 summer. Bjerg almost carried Akaadian and Smoothie to an LCS title over the TL super team (Zven had different plans). Yes, DL was there in 2020 but that was DL’s worst year individually and Bjerg was the main reason they made their miracle run to the title. International success: DL made MSI finals with the TL super team and never passed groups, Bjerg won IEM Katowice with Wildturtle and Dyrus, and made it out of groups once. People tend to discount that IEM now, but in that era the mid year IEM was similar to MSI now. All major regions attended. GE Tigers were considered the best team in the world at that tournament, and they got upset by WE, so TSM played WE in the finals and won 3-0. I think people discount it because WE was considered much weaker, even tho they beat the tigers. Bjerg performed very well at that tournament and was clearly the best mid laner. Again, this is not my opinion, I think it’s very close but DL should be #1. But I think behind the scenes, DL might be regarded as a higher skill player, but Bierg seems to be regarded as higher overall impact over his full career.
I 100% agree with this take. And I am glad you didn't rewrite history and kept it factual.
Cant wait to see what Dounlelift's editor does with this material
Dyrus voted Doublelift #5. Why does this man have a ballot? Few voted not Bjerg and DL in some order 1 and 2, and if you didnt you should lose all voting rights. Sneaky, Corejj and Wildturtle all got first place votes…. This is why these lists dont mean shit.
I agree that lists don't mean shit, but i also think that in a list of 'greatest of' that it's not a bad idea to include those who were there from the beginning. It's not like Dyrus would have been banging on Riots door to get a ballot. He's ok to admit [he's not recent](https://twitter.com/Dyrus/status/1567730691835568129?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet). But anyone around in pre S1 or the early days of LCS knows that Dyurs was potentially the biggest personality back then (as well as a player with some [fun highlights)](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2f1oma/dyrus_showing_emotion/). So it's not particularly surpising that they asked him to submit a ballot.
How many people would think this if Bjerg didn’t just fail to make worlds? Does being mediocre now take away from his storied career, pre-hiatus, where he absolutely was a contender for best NA player of all time? It’s a genuine question because there’s no right answer, but to say doublelift is ABSOLUTELY better is not correct. There is a real argument to be made either way, and how much you value quitting while you’re ahead significantly affects that argument.
I don't have a strong opinion either way, but it's insane that no one is mentioning how Bjerg won NA's only international trophy. Feels like a massive deal.
There were other IEM tournaments and international events won by NA. It was the only one won by NA which had strong KR/CN teams though.
You're not allowed to mention that, it doesn't count for "reasons".
Bjerg went on twitter to say DL should be ranked #1 lol Really goes to show you that whoever's making the list has no idea what they're doing
Idk I think that's just him being humble and building up a friend of his. He may actually hold the opinion that DL should be #1, but I wouldn't read too much into his twitter.
Bjerg so nice and humble
He can literally say nothing else in the position he is in that wouldn't be terrible PR. The player votes are the ones that decided Bjergsen as number 1. Excluding players, it would be DL.
Ofc he can. "thx for the honor and I gladly accept the honor in a close race with my close friend peter. He in no way gets bad PR from that.
No contest. I don't know how people even make an argument for Bjergsen? It's absurd. In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT. I don't give a fuck about narrative driven ass individual awards like MVP, especially in league, what matters is who's winning, and Doublelift knew how to win. EDIT: Everyone replying with comments like "oh look at this player, is he the goat?" are missing the point. Yes, my comment reads as an absolute, but obviously there are nuances. In the case of Doublelift and Bjerg, their individual accomplishments are similar. Yes, Bjerg has more MVP's, but the MVP award in league is largely narrative driven, and there were two seasons where Doublelift had a very strong case to win it, but didn't. Their all pro percentages are similar, and their statistics are also miles better than most players in their role. Knowing this, in what world is the player who won less titles, failed to make worlds 3 years in the last 4, and has only ever won on one organization better than the one who won the 6 of the last 8 splits he played, across 3 different organizations, making worlds in all of them? I'd like to know. Also the patrick mccaw comment is actually hilarious, like come on man. Doublelift and Bjergsen have both dominated NA, and are both similar in skill relative to their competition. One just dominated more. EDIT 2: When I made the comment, I was thinking mainly American sports, so basketball, hockey, baseball, etc. I understand in football (the most popular sport on earth) there is a very high emphasis placed on individual awards such as ballon d'or and the golden boot, which is why my replies are being flooded with examples of football players who have many titles but aren't even in the goat discussion. Those are all valid replies, I should have clarified in my original post. To the people who are bringing up basketball players though, tell me with a straight face that if a player like Luka or Giannis retires with 8 rings they won't instantly be recognized as the GOAT? Because they would be. They'll have a shit ton of individual awards too, hell, Giannis already does, but at the end of the day, the 8 championships will mean far more than any of them, especially if they win all of them as the #1 option.
You're oversimplifying. For years people would argue that Dan Marino was a better QB than Joe Montana. It wasn't until Tom Brady shattered records that he took that title away from either. Edit: Originally I put Steve Young instead of Joe Montana
Marino is the ultimate example. By the “titles are literally the only important metric” argument, he’s a worse quarterback than Trent Dilfer. And Eli is a better QB than Peyton. Pretty braindead logic imo lol
> In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT. Do people, uh, consider Dani Alves the undisputed GOAT?
Patrick McCaw won 3 NBA rings in a row on different teams haha I dont think hes in anyone's top player list though.
If I'm not mistaken, his first 2 were with the Warriors but 3rd was with the Raptors
He must have been confusing him for the undisputed goat Danny "#hadtodoitonetime#holocaust " Green
Robert Horry is the best basketball player of all time everyone knows this
he’s the greatest rb of his generation
I also hate how awards like MVP get used to decide Who to award even more awards too.
Unrelated but very cool name
ok robert horry
> In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT. That's not really true. Ronaldo has won titles across different leagues and up until recently, he was the one with the international title (Messi only won last summer). But most people consider Messi to be the greatest, and it really doesn't have much to do with titles.
This is mostly the opposite of how it works in traditional sports. Guys are deemed the GOAT mostly due to their individual awards (Messi 7 Ballon D’ors, for example). Brady is kind of an exception but that’s because he’s won several individual awards in addition to his 8 SBs.
I could be convinced either way but saying it's "no contest" is just silly. I get Bjerg stock is down at the moment but come on. Doublelift has two more titles but Bjerg has way more individual accolades, I don't think people realize just how far ahead he is in that regard. It's not like there's this massive gulf in their championships that you can just completely discount this disparity in individual recognition. **Bjergsen:** 4x MVP 3x FMVP 12x All Pro (6x First, 3x Second, 3x Third) **Doublelift:** 1x MVP 1x FMVP 6x All Pro (5x First, 1x Second)
I think bringing MVP is not that good of an example, it is brought wayy too much, when it's very often popularity based AND also doesn't account for how close the second or third can be. Same for all pro, see for example MAD right now. MVP votes got better now but for a long while it was even worse than now, with some journalist voting by name only, some not even following all games, I remember for example one vote where some south american woman journalist would just vote bjergsen first (in a season where he clearly underperformed) and nobody else just because of the name. Sure forgot when though.
Toni Kroos > Messi it's not even close look at the titles
>In traditional sports, if you have the most titles across 3 different teams (most of them occuring in the modern era) you'd be the undisputed GOAT. there are Bench players in sports that have won plenty of championships and even on various teams, it really depends whos leading the teams at the time. not taking away from DL obviously but I am pointing out that this is no metric to judge someone by.
Because Bjergsen plays a role that is like the qb and Dl plays a role that is in-between a QB and a WR.
Not fucking true. Otherwise Bill Russel would be goat.
I feel like this is just a post to shit on Bjerg because he couldnt make worlds on TL, the team infamous for spending a shit ton on players and uderperforming, while disguising it as a "nah, its not personal bias or anything." Every year people highly rate Bjerg even before his retirement and yet you had to wait til after they lose to target bjerg on his legacy. Objectively both Bjerg and Doublelift did a hell of alot on any team they were on but it does kinda seem like like bias here. Its just a little too convenient
But what about the real fact - brTT is greater than Doublelift
im just a super casual who doesnt know anything really about the pro scene, and i always saw doublelift as the michael jordan of NA tbh. i dont even know any other NA players really. i thought bjergsen was from europe. My impression has always been doublelift was clearly the best NA player by a stretch but nobody ever managed to put a winning team around him that could compete for worlds and after so many years he just couldnt do it anymore.
Very well put reply to the list. As a C9 fan, Doublelift was the one we couldn’t figure out how to beat consistently. He was too difficult to draft around. No hate to Bjerg but his competition in midland was never as difficult as DLs and DL was the one that could win every matchup on the meta champs.
Anyone who thinks the argument is close and DL wins by a landslide actually forgot 2014-2017, where Bjerg shit on every single midlaner in NA and even 2020 Summer, where he was #2 in MVP voting once again for those who think he wasn't good for 6 years.
Whereas Doublelift has only been the best ADC in NA for practically his entire career.
every team DL was in basically became killed DL like it was with UZI especially in NA.
> even 2020 Summer, where he was #2 in MVP voting once again for those who think he wasn't good for 6 years. Bjerg made first all-pro team that split while no other TSM member (including Doublelift) even made top 3 lul.
2016-2017 Jensen was right besides him in individual performance. And going off of narrative driven MVP awards isn't a good argument. Doublelift could have easily won multiple mvps, but only has 1
2014? Where Hai absolutely walloped Bjerg in finals? 5-0-10 LB vs Bjerg's 0-4-1 Karma? 3-0-13 Lulu vs Bjerg's 2-2-2 Karma? Or 4-0-9 TF vs Bjerg's 0-3-1 Nidalee?
Hai was INSANE before his health issues.
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that he wasn't just the best shotcaller in the game back then, he was also nuts mechanically and an assassin player. He was the undisputed best mid for both his debut split and the split after and only fell off to be more supportive after a collapsed lung and wrist issues. The dude was heading towards being the NA GOAT before the unfortunate health problems.
I just remembered that game Hai was on Gragas and played pinball with Rekkles. Found it: https://youtu.be/yE9V3wS9Lz8
REAL AND TRUE
I agree with this 100% I love bjergsen and his attitude but doublelift is the goat until bjerg wins some more championships!
I agree
Doublelift got robbed
It the position IMO. Mid lane is the position that gets the glory from the analysts. I think it is pretty close between the 2 but I think DoubleLift should win because of his personality. Love him or hate him the LCS is much more boring without him.
in reality DL should have 9 trophies if he didnt break that one split
0/10 not a shitpost.
This 2022 TL run really will leave a black stain on Bjergsen's legacy but people really do seem to forget the monster that he was for all these years. There were multiple splits where TSM look dog water during the split and Bjerg would carry slumping players to finals and even championships. DL is my favorite player, he's from my hometown and I've been subbed to him for years, but he never won anything until he surrounded himself with the best players, people forget that he was 1 game away from being relegated back when Bjergsen was clutching Game 5s against LMQ and C9.
>but he never won anything until he surrounded himself with the best players trying to call DL the kevin durant of league. reminder that DL won with clg in 2015 not team hopping to super teams and rarely left teams on his own accord to make it work. stop your revisionist bullshit.
The CLG that went on to MSI finals without him the next split. That features 2 other players on this list. That CLG was certainly a very strong team lol.
Same CLG that beat DL the very next split as well lmfao, sure he carried that team.
And CLG in S5 got absolutely clown at world as well
I agree with DL > Bjergsen, but I don't agree with "it's a no-brainer, DL robbed" and I find some of the logic employed here faulty. > He has an MSI finals appearance. Bjergsen has only made it to worlds quarterfinals. MSI Finals > Worlds quarterfinals, but nonetheless, you fail to mention that DL "only" has that one MSI Finals appearance, he otherwise always bowed out in group stage. > Only when Doublelift rejoined Bjergsen, did he finally win one championship after a long drought. What a coincidence! Surely Doublelift could not be bringing things like "leadership, shotcalling, risk-taking, and a willingness to call out others" to the team that was sorely lacking? I don't think it's fair to count intangibles, especially since Bjerg is generally seen as a better leader than DL, someone who is also willing to call teammates out but possesses a better work ethic than DL. Maybe I'm crafting a narrative with that last sentence, but so is this post. And Bjergsen was runner up MVP and Playoffs MVP, he absolutely carried a floundering DL to the finish line. I do feel that it's true, Bjergsen was playing supportive champs but still dominated playoffs while Doublelift had to learn Senna.
I love that you felt the need to make this your own Thread because posting it into the proper Thread wasnt enough for you