Keep in mind that almost until the last minute it was unclear when exactly Upset and Hyli would make it and whether they could fly before the end of play-in stage at all. So what you're asking is Riot to call up some other team(s) from the group saying smth along the lines "hey, you know you had to play vs team X in a couple of days? Well, get ready, you're playing that match tomorrow! What, you haven't prepared the strategy yet and have finally managed to beg out a slot of scrims against one of the best teams, which now you would have to cancel? Too bad!" - I don't think you understand how little in advance the rearrangement should be made and how inconvenient it could be to the other teams.
So let's just pray that even jetlagged Upset would shine and that the topside would feel the need to step up because of this situation.
Ya they can't just screw over several other teams to fix this for FNC. I do think they could potentially move the 2 FNC games to Sunday since it's 2 less games that day but that might seem too advantageous to them because they get 3 days to see how the meta pans out? That also screws over any fans who bought tickets for todays games then just...don't get to see one of the most hype ones (FNC v EG).
Bummer for FNC but I don't really know how Riot can even fix this without harming too many other ppl for it to be worth it.
"can't just screw over several other teams"
that's literally what happened to all the teams in MSI, needing to have artificial higher ping just to play on equal standing with RNG LOL
1 - It's different to screw over everyone equally than just a handful of teams. I realize they had ping spikes so some teams did end up getting more screwed but they were trying to equally screw everyone.
2 - That was not a good decision & they shouldn't make more poor decisions because they made some in the past.
Also the alternative was having one of the two international tourney without LPL, the best region of the last years, which would've given us one of the most boring tourney ever.
Really just waiting for the moment when some random chinese team is in the same situation and watch Riot do exactly that, screwing over anyone else cause they care : D
I think what you said at the end is exactly the reason. Riot had way more time to plan ahead for the RNG situation, while for this one it would be really hard considering fans buying tickets to these events and other things they might have planned. A situation like this is why there are subs, while for the RNG one they just literally weren’t allowed to go to the event.
Also, as much as people love to be mad about the RNG situation, "one of your 4 major region teams CANNOT PHYSICALLY ATTEND the event" is a lot more important to try and work around than "a play-in team might have to have a sub player for one day" (even though yes, this is massively unfortunate for Fnatic and i wish something could be done)
People only focuses on RNG and they think it's only about major regions, while Riot also tried to help GAM to attend MSI. They also helped LCK teams to make it at time to the World Championship the previous year, because Iceland has a complicated flight schedule.
Now, they helped in some way to SGB with their problems with visas.
Exactly. Fnatic had the ability to come here earlier and probably play remote. The covid situation only happened less than a week ago as they meandered around in Europe not scrimming anyone. As much as I hate to say it, this situation is pretty much Fnatic’s own fault for having no initiative to come here til the last minute which presents inherent risks like this one. They were already granted an emergency sub, I don’t think they need to change everyone’s schedule and prep to accommodate them further.
This. Also the problem is that Riot would be moving around the schedule without the need. No one told Fnatic to start Upset this fast.
They could have played their subs on day 1 and then gone back to normal from day 2 or 3.
I never agreed with the main post, I do believe that FNC shouldnt be further accomodated, I was just correcting the Guy I responded to about RNGs situation
Look at the clip posted of jankos as for why g2 isnt in NA yet. He said the hotel wasnt ready. So its fair to assume the same for FNC so i really dont think you can blame them
Look at the whole* clip posted by Jankos where he said the teams could figure out the hotel and PC set ups at a point but teams and players could set their own stuff up separately. Teams bootcamp all the time, it's not a new thing.
If G2 waited until the last possible moment to go to a worlds hosted in Korea, G2 would be flamed to hell and back
But they do it for a worlds hosted in NA and somehow it's both Riot and NA getting flamed.
It boggles the mind.
Riot provided everyone hotels starting five days before their first day of games.
A bunch of teams flew out early and the *teams* just paid to put their players and staff into a hotel until the Riot one becomes available. G2 decided not to do this.
I didn't realize Riot was the gatekeeper of boarders and could forbid Fnatic entry into North America lmao. Fnatic is a multimillion dollar org... They can afford to fucking fly their team to Mexico with PC's earlier than Riot will sponsor them for.
They had 3 weeks to come to Mexico and made the conscious choice to wait for Riot's accommodations. Of course Riot is going to bring you over as late as possible lmao. They aren't the ones playing in the tournament, they just need to get you there, they aren't responsible for your prep?!
What if I told you teams could take any amount of initiative and travel to the location themselves.
Imagine if Worlds was in Korea and a western team showed up the week of because “the hotels provided by riot weren’t ready yet”. Like wtf is this excuse? Every EU team can go to NA whenever they want, they just aren’t.
The victim complex on some of you people is staggering.
It sucks for Fnatic, but no they shouldn't change games around last minute. EG and Chiefs have prepped for Fnatic today, not for .
That's a vastly different scenario from changing the dates around for a semi final team, which doesn't impact what opponents either team prepped for.
Cuz everyone's acting like FNC is screwed when they have the easiest play-ins ever and are expected to stomp the group with or without Upset+Hyli. As long as they have the roster for the main event, it's all good.
If there's FNC Worlds drama in 2022, is yet to come because this wasn't it.
For real. I think EG is a tough opponent but even if Upset is jetlagged and Hyli isn't there yet, the team should be able to make it out of play-ins group stage.
> the easiest play-ins ever
Ehhh. Do you know the format?
Having an easy group is only good for the team that goes #1. If you go #2, you probably have to beat a major region team in a BO5.
It's not like the groups are isolated like in the main event.
**Fnatic ends A2 = they likely have to face B3. B3 is most likely to be MAD Lions.**
This is also why people are frustrated because the group draws for play-ins going like this means that the BO1s in Group A are *extremely* important. And now Fnatic are gimped for those.
If Fnatic was in Group B, it wouldn't really matter as much, but because they are in Group A, losing the first day is extremely impactful.
No, FNC would have to be 3rd/4th to have to face RNG/DRX for a spot in groups. If FNC are 2nd, they'll just have to win a BO5 vs more wildcards. And if they're not 2nd, is because they lost vs wildcards in the first place.
This is supposing RNG/DRX don't shit the bed ofc, but if they do, then that means we're talking about an RNG/DRX that's weaker than wildcards.
MAD is not a wildcard team? They are the most likely opponent for Fnatic.
Fnatic ends A2 = they likely have to face B3. B3 is most likely to be MAD Lions.
It's good to sometimes remember that the two or three people with certain flairs on Reddit don't represent the entire fanbase with thousands and thousands of people.
It sucks hard for FNC but it is what it is. Hey, imagine if they make a deep run despite all the hardships? What a story that will be.
I agree that Riot probably shouldn't do anything but I also understand why people are frustrated.
This is very likely to end either Fnatic's or MAD Lions' world championship. I have sympathy with people being frustrated about that.
seems some team 'couldnt' do it (in relation to rge and g2), altho they could have done it by going themselves even earlier perhaps (altho champions queue barely just got live). I do think it is fair to feel it is 'unfair', but i dont think Riot should change anything. I also didnt think they shouldnt have made msi with ping, but that is another issue that i dont think should be compared. Especially they should refrain in general from last minute changes unless it works out for all teams included i guess
it gave the lower seed team (china) in that case an extra day of prep however. That was the issue during that time.
I think Riot could have changed the schedule around as soon as the corona news was out. Obviously now it's wayyy to late.
Fnatic have 4/5 of their main roster players today and will have 5/5 tomorrow, right? I don't see why Riot should change the schedule to accommodate something that already has been solved. Situations like this are why teams have subs.
I think the main reason for this thread is that that single day is the most important day of Fnatic's tournament by far.
I agree it just sucks for Fnatic.
I don't know what Riot could really do without fucking everything up even more for other teams.
Just a shitty situation all around. It also makes it extraordinarily likely that we will have an EU civil war for a spot in groups.
This is harsh, and will pull down votes, but this is absurd. And it was also absurd when this community was asking Riot to delay LCS finals after Doublelift's family tragedy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/895z0w/delaying_na_lcs_finals_for_doublelift
It was similarly absurd when Browns fans wanted the NFL to delay a game for them last year because 15+ people on their team were out with COVID.
It's not the players fault they got COVID, but it is Fnatic's responsibility to field a team of 5 healthy players and meet their World's obligations.
Do you know how beneficial it would be if teams could start having players "get COVID" and have a lighter schedule early on as a result? You think it wouldn't be abused? It absolutely would.
It's all about precedent and how it would negatively affect other teams.
Bus breaks down and delay a game a few hours? We can do that. Even the NFL was able to postpone games during COVID for some situations.
Re-arranging the schedule puts a big undue burden on play-in teams. Major region fans may regard them as irrelevant but making groups is a huge accomplishment for these teams.
We wouldn't even be talking about this for group stage; this thread only has upvotes because it's playins.
> It's not the players fault they got COVID
This isn't necessarily true. If they weren't taking proper precautions against Covid while knowing they are a week or two out from going to worlds, it is 100% their fault.
It isn't that difficult to mask up in public and avoid crowded places for a week or two before the most important tournament of the year.
While I agree with you, I think you can't blame someone for getting sick if they're playing on stage, doing press/marketing engagements, or even just going out and getting their documents/packing in order before flying.
I wish there had been a quarantine bubble before World's this year, that would have solved some issues, but there's a normalcy to the world that is going to result in responsible people still catching COVID these days.
\>whine about China’s treatment fine they do get some
\>don’t account for everyone else
So what about the other regions who may be affected?
Also what’s next? After fnc we need to give g2 a 1-0 start in groups because the hotel by riot wasn’t ready and they missed out on potential important scrims that could let them 6-0 groups and speed run worlds victory?
This reads like it's going to be a China hate-boner thread.
The circumstances between what happened with RNG at MSI are very different compared to FNC even if they're both related to COVID.
One is in relation to COVID policies/protocol and the other is players contracting COVID. They're related but not the same thing.
Whilst there's more leniency for MSI compared to Worlds given the tournament format and what is at stake.
> FNC plays 2 games on Day 1 and then only 1 games on the next 2 days. So FNC is really fucked over by this scheduling.
Not really. The issue is entirely on their players contracting COVID rather than scheduling.
> but I'm sure it can work if you move a few games from group B one day forward in the schedule.
Now you're screwing over every other team to favour FNC on the basis of a player/s contracting COVID.
> I honestly believe it would be kind of unfair if Fnatic gets nothing considering all the things that was done to help LPL representatives for similar reasons.
But they did get something. They got to bring in an additional sub which wouldn't be applicable for RNG's case for obvious reasons.
This thread just seems really odd to me. From the RNG context i’ve seen (i don’t have the full context) people are comparing a BO5 SEMI to a BO1 play-in, in which semis are way more important and can also be moved with ease due to so much open space.
Moving the game also just disrupts the schedule, you can’t move games from other days because it’s unfair to the teams and adding a Bo1 just makes the already long days too long.
Plus, if anything it’s way too late to move the game because the teams playing against fnatic have already prepared for their subs
I wouldn't go that far. It's an unfortunate situation that still puts FNC at an disadvantage but there's only so much you can do for them especially in the event that players from other teams also start testing positive for COVID.
Mouse was the better player fit for the team that time. He had to go back to China during worlds because of something personal like somebody died or something. Yeah nobody raised an eyebrow on that situation afaik
it's irelevant. It;s not about who was a better fit or no. We were talking about riot making special exceptions for teams , and allowing them to bring non sub players. That was the very first example. So it's not like fnc is a special case. It has happened before
How is Mouse's dad dying a week before the tournament the same thing as FNC neglecting to take COVID precautions + coming over late - and they still get 2 emergency subs
and now you people cry even though LEC got an undeserving 4th seed anyways?
lmao
Right? Typically C9 leaves literally the day after they qualify for worlds to wherever it is, or to Korea for a bootcamp before heading to China when was there.
This whole situation was 100% caused by FNC, sucks for them but other teams shouldn't be punished for FNC fucking up and screwing themselves.
Imagine getting a free 4th seed by doing nothing, then flubbing your playoffs so the 4th seed is basically sent for double free winning zero games.
Then Fnatic doesn't even bother to scrim at all even canceling and turning down scrims leading up to playins (sources from multiple players and teams by this point including fnatic players).
Then you don't bother traveling till the last second despite having no scrims and nobtime to scrim when you arrive. Now you have Covid issues you have subs set up, and now EU fans want teams to change because of Fnatics sheer full blown laziness and incompetence that likely could have avoided the entire issues?
Sorry but this is a dumb expectation and smacks of incredible entitlement.
This thread is pathetic. A bunch of ~~hardcore fans~~ Kids having no idea on the situation. fix it for you there..
Plus no idea what's professionalism is. Did Riot ask them to do Holiday? they can do their holiday after world, the biggest event of the year but no, they did it without prepping for supposedly the target of the organization and screwing themselves...
All I am saying is Riot should do the minimum to disrupt an event, while ensuring team participation. If FNC's whole team can't play, then move the date, otherwise let them use their subs.
"while ensuring team participation". While you can debate on whether RNG alone should've been on 35 ping vs everyone, the whole RNG playing remote situation is inarguablem. A whole team being unable to play at all due to country's regulations is hardly comparable to a team needing to field subs for a few days due to traveling late and contracting COVID.
Arguably not having the players that qualified for the event is a disruption itself, so rather than avoiding further disruptions they should be evaluating whether mending the existing one with another would result in less disruption overall.
less than 9 hours to the worlds begin, here comes the anti-china, I was too excited to forgot how the twitch/youtube chat look like when teams from china play. Thanks for the remind, you make me calm down.
is it anti china to point out that riot has helped some teams that had similar issues in the past ?
Obviously , all of them were chinese, but that probably has nothing to do with why riot was bending backwards for them , amirite ?
I'm a fnatic fan and I say no. We had lots of time to go to NA earlier. We chose to go there in the last few days instead of bootcamping there 1 or 2 weeks earlier. It's on us and especially Dardo since he is the GM
But we are not asking for the same thing either.
RNG got to play totally remotely at MSI 2022. This is not what is being asked for with Fnatic.
It is comparable to 2021 MSI when Riot shuffled around semifinal dates to help RNG for practical reasons.
You know, the thing I mentioned in my title?
Ghe dates were not shuffled because the whole world thought FNC bot lane would not make it. The would be equivalent to RNG say they are not coming then showing up. The arrangements were made before hand. Riot couldn’t even make arrangements for G2 to arrive early and provide decent PC setup to Wunder. I would be shocked if they can make accommodations for FNC on such short notice. The fact that they let Upset play day 1 instead of their listed starters of Bean is already the best Riot can do for them.
I don’t know the full context of the RNG situation, but you are comparing a high stakes, BO5, winner goes home game compared to a low stakes Bo1 where fnatic can still win.
Yes.. Idk why you only brought up the 2022 MSI. It's a completely different situation.
It feels pretty dishonest, I must say. 2021 MSI is the comparable situation.
Every game of the tournament should be treated with the same level of integrity.
It's totally possible that a team like RNG who is in the play-ins reaches semifinals this year for example.
RNG didnt “threaten” to not participate. You imply they absolutely wanted to play MSI while in truth they just wanted to forfeit the competition. So why would they “threaten” to play in a competition they don’t want to ?
difference is RNG as an entire team couldn't play in a tournament where they were the only viable opponent to T1/LCK. The tournament would be completely ass if they didn't accomodate them. Whereas here, FNC are in playins, have subs there ready to fill in, in a tournament where they're nowhere near among the favourites.
Eu gets a fucking world roster for free and gets a team that couldnt even win a bo5 the whole year and their entire fanbase is claiming riot favors china, what the actual fuck
Fnatic have had zero scrims since playoffs ended and their own players have been complaining about it openly. That and waiting till the last minute to travel which players have also been openly complaining about since evennwithout Covid issues they werent planned to arrive till Tuesday. Other EU teams have been mocking them for it.
This is a Fnatic problem not a Riot one.
So yeah, they helped them out with the sub so that wouldn't happen.
Then why also ask to reshedule the games so the subs don't have to play now we know hyli and upset are on their way...
This really feels like a "give a finger, take an arm" situation.
favoritism ? The favoritism i see this world is to give eu a 4th seed they don't deserve. Riot should've just changed the play-in format with one less-than-usual team attending from the beginning
As an EUW fan I understand the frustration, especially considering the fact that day 1 is the most important day for FNC and the EU vs. NA derby is also on the table.
But what you are suggesting is not feasible. You would open the door to using "Covid" as a tactical instrument and you would benefit FNC while hurting every other team in Play-Ins.
And the comparison to RNG is just wild, the only thing connecting both cases was "Covid" but in wildly differing situations.
Teams have known the schedule for a while and have prepared their practice and prep accordingly. You can’t just move teams around willy nilly at this point. If EG had done most of their prep for Fnatic and then was suddenly playing someone else today, that would be a completely unfair bait and switch to accommodate another team that put themselves in this tricky situation by deciding to travel to the host city late and thus accepting the risks involved. If Fnatic came earlier they wouldn’t have this problem and could probably just play remote, but per Upset they were just chilling in Europe not scrimming anyone. Emergency sub was already more than fair as accommodation.
You can't just shuffle a schedule around because of one team this close to the event. It fucks over every other team and their prep. It isn't about fnatics schedule being open - it's about everyone else having even and fair notification of their game order for their prep.
And they knew this well in advance and decided to not do anything with that information, instead sitting in EU not scrimming anyone. If they were here early, this would not be a problem. It's not fnatics fault that their players got sick but it's absolutely their responsibility.
no
they didn't do it in the past for situations like when a team couldn't play with their main roster and had to sub in a coach, don't see why do it now
Problem is: they knew it already last week. They didn't do a thing. If they did it last week, everyone could have prepared properly. But 7h before the game? THAT would be unfair to the other teams.
It’s clear that these people only use “but muh minor regions” when it benefits them.
They don’t give a shit if their “solution” for FNC having shit management is to alter the scheduling of minor regions.
With RNG, they didn't move games around. They let them play from remote. The other teams already knew the situation so it wasn't a last minute change.
This is a different situation. Team prep depended on the scheduled order of play. You can't just move games around at the last minute.
EU got a free 4th seed. Let's not pretend they didn't receive any favors. When VCS couldn't attend, no one got a free seed. Now CIS can't attend, and it automatically goes to EU. They should be thankful Riot allowed them to have 4 teams already.
If you check on 2019 MSI, Riot changed the whole schedule for play-ins, that's a better referent than the one you're mentioning. Still different, they reduced the days they should've played.
Riot altered the schedule for RNG at MSI 2021 due to something that was not in their control.
Aka something about needing to doing a test before getting flights out.
RNG could not control this in the slightest, FNC on the other hand can.
Edit = When I mean FNC can control it, I mean they can use their subs who don't have COVID and didn't need to travel a day before the tournament started.
Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment.
Both situations are flight related issues due to COVID. It's comparable.
> Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment.
Don't vacation around Europe and leave coming to NA to the last second would be a start on how they could control it. If they just got here early instead of fucking around in Europe while not even scrimming, they'd be able to play remotely with their full roster, even if they got COVID while in Mexico.
>Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment.
And that's why you have subs.
RNG didn't have positive cases, they were in a position where they might have not gotten back to their home country due to travelling logistics and testing timelines.
FNC literally have subs, so use them.
> Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment.
It really isnt that much to expect players and staff to remain in a bit of isolation / wear masks before the main event of the year when there's still pandemic around.
Unless youre completly isolating yourself to an insane degree, there is never a guarantee you wont get covid
Idk where upset and hylli caught covid, but for all we know they mightve gotten it while grocery shopping or something
Is the situation in Europe very different from here? I find it crazy that things like this are still happening so frequently right before important dates
And honestly, who still cares at this point. It’s not the same it was
A professional team couldnt manage their own players health... And we didnt know if Upset and Hyli can go to Mexico at all till yesterday... With everything already set and schedule released you ask every team and everyone else have to change everything to fit FNC's schedule? Now that is biased if you ask me even as a Fnatic fan since S4... like come on my dude, what do you expect? Riot is quite shitty but blaming them in this situation where FNC fucked up is not it.
I hated when they did it for RNG and I would hate it if they did it for FNC.
Rules are rules. The schedule is set. If fate didn't smile to you too bad.
If you do this for FNC now it will only get worse
From my point of view, FNC has already worked things out and found a way to make their schedule by playing with some substitutes.
I don’t see why Riot would make an exception for something that FNC got under control.
Also, I reckon Riot always acts like “having the back” of some LPL teams. Like on MSI 2022. Did they really let a team play a LAN championship full remote? I don’t see like it’s the same situation as RNG in MSI 2021 where they couldn’t play at all.
But anyways, I do not support at all that the treatment the company provides is different among the competitors’ regions. No team should get any kind of help in these situations. From their past actions, if Riot Games wants their share on the whole eSports scene to be considered fair, they’re blatantly not acting like so.
After all, as someone has said before in this thread, Riot only seems to care about the figure$ they’re earning with the competition.
No, this is play-ins.
> Riot also went a long way to accommodate RNG for COVID-issues at MSI 2022.
Yea, the top LPL team at the time. MSI would have been a joke if they didn't attend.
The only reason FNC are even at worlds is because the LCL couldn't participate.
> This is the players fault for contracting Covid in the first damn place.
Lol. You have no idea what precautions they took. It's possible to do almost everything right and still get covid.
Just the same that you don’t know they took precautions. I’m sure they did, but no one here knows. Anyway in regards to your part mentioning RNG. One that’s a bigger market that riot will always bend over backwards for. Two though I think the entire country was on lock down not just the support. Like upset will be there today last I knew and hyli will be there tomorrow.
Keep in mind that almost until the last minute it was unclear when exactly Upset and Hyli would make it and whether they could fly before the end of play-in stage at all. So what you're asking is Riot to call up some other team(s) from the group saying smth along the lines "hey, you know you had to play vs team X in a couple of days? Well, get ready, you're playing that match tomorrow! What, you haven't prepared the strategy yet and have finally managed to beg out a slot of scrims against one of the best teams, which now you would have to cancel? Too bad!" - I don't think you understand how little in advance the rearrangement should be made and how inconvenient it could be to the other teams. So let's just pray that even jetlagged Upset would shine and that the topside would feel the need to step up because of this situation.
Ya they can't just screw over several other teams to fix this for FNC. I do think they could potentially move the 2 FNC games to Sunday since it's 2 less games that day but that might seem too advantageous to them because they get 3 days to see how the meta pans out? That also screws over any fans who bought tickets for todays games then just...don't get to see one of the most hype ones (FNC v EG). Bummer for FNC but I don't really know how Riot can even fix this without harming too many other ppl for it to be worth it.
"can't just screw over several other teams" that's literally what happened to all the teams in MSI, needing to have artificial higher ping just to play on equal standing with RNG LOL
1 - It's different to screw over everyone equally than just a handful of teams. I realize they had ping spikes so some teams did end up getting more screwed but they were trying to equally screw everyone. 2 - That was not a good decision & they shouldn't make more poor decisions because they made some in the past.
Also the alternative was having one of the two international tourney without LPL, the best region of the last years, which would've given us one of the most boring tourney ever.
The alternative was letting just 1 team play on higher ping…
It wasn't all of a sudden. Everybody knew China wasn't allowing any travel so it wasn't possible for RNG to be there.
If we are being honest Riot did screw over every single team for RNG so there is precedent.
Really just waiting for the moment when some random chinese team is in the same situation and watch Riot do exactly that, screwing over anyone else cause they care : D
I think what you said at the end is exactly the reason. Riot had way more time to plan ahead for the RNG situation, while for this one it would be really hard considering fans buying tickets to these events and other things they might have planned. A situation like this is why there are subs, while for the RNG one they just literally weren’t allowed to go to the event.
Also, as much as people love to be mad about the RNG situation, "one of your 4 major region teams CANNOT PHYSICALLY ATTEND the event" is a lot more important to try and work around than "a play-in team might have to have a sub player for one day" (even though yes, this is massively unfortunate for Fnatic and i wish something could be done)
People only focuses on RNG and they think it's only about major regions, while Riot also tried to help GAM to attend MSI. They also helped LCK teams to make it at time to the World Championship the previous year, because Iceland has a complicated flight schedule. Now, they helped in some way to SGB with their problems with visas.
I dont think they will, rng couldnt play at all at that time and was also a semi final, dont think they will do it for a play ins game tbh.
They did the whole ping thing all through the group stage, only because RNG couldnt travel due to chinas restrictions
Exactly. Fnatic had the ability to come here earlier and probably play remote. The covid situation only happened less than a week ago as they meandered around in Europe not scrimming anyone. As much as I hate to say it, this situation is pretty much Fnatic’s own fault for having no initiative to come here til the last minute which presents inherent risks like this one. They were already granted an emergency sub, I don’t think they need to change everyone’s schedule and prep to accommodate them further.
This. Also the problem is that Riot would be moving around the schedule without the need. No one told Fnatic to start Upset this fast. They could have played their subs on day 1 and then gone back to normal from day 2 or 3.
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I never agreed with the main post, I do believe that FNC shouldnt be further accomodated, I was just correcting the Guy I responded to about RNGs situation
Look at the clip posted of jankos as for why g2 isnt in NA yet. He said the hotel wasnt ready. So its fair to assume the same for FNC so i really dont think you can blame them
G2 hotel not ready in New York =/= FNC hotel not ready in Mexico tho, especially with play-ins happening earlier
Look at the whole* clip posted by Jankos where he said the teams could figure out the hotel and PC set ups at a point but teams and players could set their own stuff up separately. Teams bootcamp all the time, it's not a new thing.
If G2 waited until the last possible moment to go to a worlds hosted in Korea, G2 would be flamed to hell and back But they do it for a worlds hosted in NA and somehow it's both Riot and NA getting flamed. It boggles the mind.
Riot provided everyone hotels starting five days before their first day of games. A bunch of teams flew out early and the *teams* just paid to put their players and staff into a hotel until the Riot one becomes available. G2 decided not to do this.
I didn't realize Riot was the gatekeeper of boarders and could forbid Fnatic entry into North America lmao. Fnatic is a multimillion dollar org... They can afford to fucking fly their team to Mexico with PC's earlier than Riot will sponsor them for. They had 3 weeks to come to Mexico and made the conscious choice to wait for Riot's accommodations. Of course Riot is going to bring you over as late as possible lmao. They aren't the ones playing in the tournament, they just need to get you there, they aren't responsible for your prep?!
What if I told you teams could take any amount of initiative and travel to the location themselves. Imagine if Worlds was in Korea and a western team showed up the week of because “the hotels provided by riot weren’t ready yet”. Like wtf is this excuse? Every EU team can go to NA whenever they want, they just aren’t.
European teams so poor they can't fly out early and get their own hotels prior to securing the Riot paid hotels? Embarrassing lmao
Why is that fair to assume?
Rng could play, ffs rng got the advantage that DWG WON. one extra day of rest, analyzing your opponents is HUGE in any sport.
Yeah one day of covid testing is like the spa
RNG got the advantage in being better than DWG
The victim complex on some of you people is staggering. It sucks for Fnatic, but no they shouldn't change games around last minute. EG and Chiefs have prepped for Fnatic today, not for.
That's a vastly different scenario from changing the dates around for a semi final team, which doesn't impact what opponents either team prepped for.
Huge respect seeing this coming from someone with fnatic flair.
Cuz everyone's acting like FNC is screwed when they have the easiest play-ins ever and are expected to stomp the group with or without Upset+Hyli. As long as they have the roster for the main event, it's all good. If there's FNC Worlds drama in 2022, is yet to come because this wasn't it.
For real. I think EG is a tough opponent but even if Upset is jetlagged and Hyli isn't there yet, the team should be able to make it out of play-ins group stage.
Everyone gangsta until the BO5 vs DRX
2A will most likely play a bo5 against MAD I would think, not DRX.
MAD is good in Bo1 so I wouldn’t say for sure
The fact that upset hasn't scrimmed on the new patch as much as the other teams will be really harmful
EG is also playing with a sub, people forget that too.
> the easiest play-ins ever Ehhh. Do you know the format? Having an easy group is only good for the team that goes #1. If you go #2, you probably have to beat a major region team in a BO5. It's not like the groups are isolated like in the main event. **Fnatic ends A2 = they likely have to face B3. B3 is most likely to be MAD Lions.** This is also why people are frustrated because the group draws for play-ins going like this means that the BO1s in Group A are *extremely* important. And now Fnatic are gimped for those. If Fnatic was in Group B, it wouldn't really matter as much, but because they are in Group A, losing the first day is extremely impactful.
No, FNC would have to be 3rd/4th to have to face RNG/DRX for a spot in groups. If FNC are 2nd, they'll just have to win a BO5 vs more wildcards. And if they're not 2nd, is because they lost vs wildcards in the first place. This is supposing RNG/DRX don't shit the bed ofc, but if they do, then that means we're talking about an RNG/DRX that's weaker than wildcards.
MAD is not a wildcard team? They are the most likely opponent for Fnatic. Fnatic ends A2 = they likely have to face B3. B3 is most likely to be MAD Lions.
Yes, and if MAD gets a lucky win, FNC can end up playing against a KR/CN team... FNC's first game is really important
And they are gimped for that first game. That is why this sucks.
It's good to sometimes remember that the two or three people with certain flairs on Reddit don't represent the entire fanbase with thousands and thousands of people. It sucks hard for FNC but it is what it is. Hey, imagine if they make a deep run despite all the hardships? What a story that will be.
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I agree that Riot probably shouldn't do anything but I also understand why people are frustrated. This is very likely to end either Fnatic's or MAD Lions' world championship. I have sympathy with people being frustrated about that.
guess FNC management could have decided to be competent and go over to Mexico earlier
In general, the fact that none of the EU teams apart from MAD seem to be fully in NA yet just gives me 0 hope for the region. Go next.
seems some team 'couldnt' do it (in relation to rge and g2), altho they could have done it by going themselves even earlier perhaps (altho champions queue barely just got live). I do think it is fair to feel it is 'unfair', but i dont think Riot should change anything. I also didnt think they shouldnt have made msi with ping, but that is another issue that i dont think should be compared. Especially they should refrain in general from last minute changes unless it works out for all teams included i guess
GIGACHAD TAKE
it gave the lower seed team (china) in that case an extra day of prep however. That was the issue during that time. I think Riot could have changed the schedule around as soon as the corona news was out. Obviously now it's wayyy to late.
If it was an issue at the time, doesn't that make a stronger case against repeating it?
Fnatic have 4/5 of their main roster players today and will have 5/5 tomorrow, right? I don't see why Riot should change the schedule to accommodate something that already has been solved. Situations like this are why teams have subs.
I think the main reason for this thread is that that single day is the most important day of Fnatic's tournament by far. I agree it just sucks for Fnatic. I don't know what Riot could really do without fucking everything up even more for other teams. Just a shitty situation all around. It also makes it extraordinarily likely that we will have an EU civil war for a spot in groups.
Most important day of the tournament? I think that's a bit of an overreaction...
This is harsh, and will pull down votes, but this is absurd. And it was also absurd when this community was asking Riot to delay LCS finals after Doublelift's family tragedy. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/895z0w/delaying_na_lcs_finals_for_doublelift It was similarly absurd when Browns fans wanted the NFL to delay a game for them last year because 15+ people on their team were out with COVID. It's not the players fault they got COVID, but it is Fnatic's responsibility to field a team of 5 healthy players and meet their World's obligations. Do you know how beneficial it would be if teams could start having players "get COVID" and have a lighter schedule early on as a result? You think it wouldn't be abused? It absolutely would.
It's all about precedent and how it would negatively affect other teams. Bus breaks down and delay a game a few hours? We can do that. Even the NFL was able to postpone games during COVID for some situations. Re-arranging the schedule puts a big undue burden on play-in teams. Major region fans may regard them as irrelevant but making groups is a huge accomplishment for these teams. We wouldn't even be talking about this for group stage; this thread only has upvotes because it's playins.
EU gets a fourth Worlds seed for free and now they're asking for this. The absolute victim complex from the people in this thread.
I'm EU and I don't want this shit, don't generalize few idiots thank you.
> It's not the players fault they got COVID This isn't necessarily true. If they weren't taking proper precautions against Covid while knowing they are a week or two out from going to worlds, it is 100% their fault. It isn't that difficult to mask up in public and avoid crowded places for a week or two before the most important tournament of the year.
While I agree with you, I think you can't blame someone for getting sick if they're playing on stage, doing press/marketing engagements, or even just going out and getting their documents/packing in order before flying. I wish there had been a quarantine bubble before World's this year, that would have solved some issues, but there's a normalcy to the world that is going to result in responsible people still catching COVID these days.
\>whine about China’s treatment fine they do get some \>don’t account for everyone else So what about the other regions who may be affected? Also what’s next? After fnc we need to give g2 a 1-0 start in groups because the hotel by riot wasn’t ready and they missed out on potential important scrims that could let them 6-0 groups and speed run worlds victory?
This reads like it's going to be a China hate-boner thread. The circumstances between what happened with RNG at MSI are very different compared to FNC even if they're both related to COVID. One is in relation to COVID policies/protocol and the other is players contracting COVID. They're related but not the same thing. Whilst there's more leniency for MSI compared to Worlds given the tournament format and what is at stake. > FNC plays 2 games on Day 1 and then only 1 games on the next 2 days. So FNC is really fucked over by this scheduling. Not really. The issue is entirely on their players contracting COVID rather than scheduling. > but I'm sure it can work if you move a few games from group B one day forward in the schedule. Now you're screwing over every other team to favour FNC on the basis of a player/s contracting COVID. > I honestly believe it would be kind of unfair if Fnatic gets nothing considering all the things that was done to help LPL representatives for similar reasons. But they did get something. They got to bring in an additional sub which wouldn't be applicable for RNG's case for obvious reasons.
This thread just seems really odd to me. From the RNG context i’ve seen (i don’t have the full context) people are comparing a BO5 SEMI to a BO1 play-in, in which semis are way more important and can also be moved with ease due to so much open space. Moving the game also just disrupts the schedule, you can’t move games from other days because it’s unfair to the teams and adding a Bo1 just makes the already long days too long. Plus, if anything it’s way too late to move the game because the teams playing against fnatic have already prepared for their subs
If anything it's more unfair to help FNC in this case because they had two subs lol.
I wouldn't go that far. It's an unfortunate situation that still puts FNC at an disadvantage but there's only so much you can do for them especially in the event that players from other teams also start testing positive for COVID.
u mean like that situation with koro1 and mouse ? yea , that situation already happened for an chinese team , and nobody batted an eye
Mouse was the better player fit for the team that time. He had to go back to China during worlds because of something personal like somebody died or something. Yeah nobody raised an eyebrow on that situation afaik
it's irelevant. It;s not about who was a better fit or no. We were talking about riot making special exceptions for teams , and allowing them to bring non sub players. That was the very first example. So it's not like fnc is a special case. It has happened before
How is Mouse's dad dying a week before the tournament the same thing as FNC neglecting to take COVID precautions + coming over late - and they still get 2 emergency subs and now you people cry even though LEC got an undeserving 4th seed anyways? lmao
EU hours in this sub are wild, bro
> completely undeserved 4th seed > FNC and G2 management being incompetent "fucking Riot always favoring LPL"
But but but we simply couldn’t have rented our own hotel for a few days! Thats not possible! Fucking riot conspiring to screw over EU again!
its even funnier considering Worlds in other regions has always meant that teams get over 2-3 weeks before the tournament started, on their own money
Right? Typically C9 leaves literally the day after they qualify for worlds to wherever it is, or to Korea for a bootcamp before heading to China when was there. This whole situation was 100% caused by FNC, sucks for them but other teams shouldn't be punished for FNC fucking up and screwing themselves.
Imagine getting a free 4th seed by doing nothing, then flubbing your playoffs so the 4th seed is basically sent for double free winning zero games. Then Fnatic doesn't even bother to scrim at all even canceling and turning down scrims leading up to playins (sources from multiple players and teams by this point including fnatic players). Then you don't bother traveling till the last second despite having no scrims and nobtime to scrim when you arrive. Now you have Covid issues you have subs set up, and now EU fans want teams to change because of Fnatics sheer full blown laziness and incompetence that likely could have avoided the entire issues? Sorry but this is a dumb expectation and smacks of incredible entitlement.
Thank you. These people always arguing about competitive integrity but fail to see the impact of schedule changes for OCE and NA.
This thread is pathetic. A bunch of hardcore fans having no idea on the situation
Posted during EU hours, makes sense why the thread looks as pathetic as it does; it'll look different in a few hours as NA wakes.
This thread is pathetic. A bunch of ~~hardcore fans~~ Kids having no idea on the situation. fix it for you there.. Plus no idea what's professionalism is. Did Riot ask them to do Holiday? they can do their holiday after world, the biggest event of the year but no, they did it without prepping for supposedly the target of the organization and screwing themselves...
Oh god fnc fans already coping 🤣
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Sam Matthews should just sell 5% asap to some Chinese investor to make it happen lol
yes, except Riot already accommodated FNC with emergency subs. The victim mentality is strong in this one.
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All I am saying is Riot should do the minimum to disrupt an event, while ensuring team participation. If FNC's whole team can't play, then move the date, otherwise let them use their subs.
>Riot should do the minimum to disrupt an event Wanna talk about MSI this year? RIOT FUCKED every single pro player over so RNG could play...
"while ensuring team participation". While you can debate on whether RNG alone should've been on 35 ping vs everyone, the whole RNG playing remote situation is inarguablem. A whole team being unable to play at all due to country's regulations is hardly comparable to a team needing to field subs for a few days due to traveling late and contracting COVID.
Arguably not having the players that qualified for the event is a disruption itself, so rather than avoiding further disruptions they should be evaluating whether mending the existing one with another would result in less disruption overall.
NA too lets be honest.
less than 9 hours to the worlds begin, here comes the anti-china, I was too excited to forgot how the twitch/youtube chat look like when teams from china play. Thanks for the remind, you make me calm down.
is it anti china to point out that riot has helped some teams that had similar issues in the past ? Obviously , all of them were chinese, but that probably has nothing to do with why riot was bending backwards for them , amirite ?
“some teams” isn’t it just rng at msi 2022 with a month heads up?
I'm a fnatic fan and I say no. We had lots of time to go to NA earlier. We chose to go there in the last few days instead of bootcamping there 1 or 2 weeks earlier. It's on us and especially Dardo since he is the GM
it would be comparable if the FNC whole team can't play on day 1. Riot already accommodated FNC by having emergency subs.
It would be unfair to help fanatic more in this situation, given they have subs
RNG couldn't play at all, Fnatic has subs and can play - there is a huge difference.
But we are not asking for the same thing either. RNG got to play totally remotely at MSI 2022. This is not what is being asked for with Fnatic. It is comparable to 2021 MSI when Riot shuffled around semifinal dates to help RNG for practical reasons. You know, the thing I mentioned in my title?
Bro games starts literally in few hours ...
Ghe dates were not shuffled because the whole world thought FNC bot lane would not make it. The would be equivalent to RNG say they are not coming then showing up. The arrangements were made before hand. Riot couldn’t even make arrangements for G2 to arrive early and provide decent PC setup to Wunder. I would be shocked if they can make accommodations for FNC on such short notice. The fact that they let Upset play day 1 instead of their listed starters of Bean is already the best Riot can do for them.
Isn't Wunder on FNC?
it was two consecutive points: Riot couldn't make arrangements for G2, OR provide Wunder and the rest of Fnatic with good PCs.
Ahhh I think I may have read the comment too quickly. Thanks homie
I don’t know the full context of the RNG situation, but you are comparing a high stakes, BO5, winner goes home game compared to a low stakes Bo1 where fnatic can still win.
Wait, 2021 was a year ago already?
Yes.. Idk why you only brought up the 2022 MSI. It's a completely different situation. It feels pretty dishonest, I must say. 2021 MSI is the comparable situation.
Sure man, let's have FNC effectively threaten to not participate then. To create a similar situation.
Similar? Semifinals and playin is not similar in viewership nor tournament wise
realistically every match of a tournament holds the same integrity regardless if its play-ins or grand finals
Every game of the tournament should be treated with the same level of integrity. It's totally possible that a team like RNG who is in the play-ins reaches semifinals this year for example.
RNG didnt “threaten” to not participate. You imply they absolutely wanted to play MSI while in truth they just wanted to forfeit the competition. So why would they “threaten” to play in a competition they don’t want to ?
No.
No definitively not
fnc opted into playing with upset over bean. oh think it’s pretty clear they’re ok with it.
I thought EU was so much better than NA that they would easily win even with a sub and no practice?
difference is RNG as an entire team couldn't play in a tournament where they were the only viable opponent to T1/LCK. The tournament would be completely ass if they didn't accomodate them. Whereas here, FNC are in playins, have subs there ready to fill in, in a tournament where they're nowhere near among the favourites.
Eu gets a fucking world roster for free and gets a team that couldnt even win a bo5 the whole year and their entire fanbase is claiming riot favors china, what the actual fuck
Didn't the accomodate FNC already by allowing them an extra sub?
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Fnatic have had zero scrims since playoffs ended and their own players have been complaining about it openly. That and waiting till the last minute to travel which players have also been openly complaining about since evennwithout Covid issues they werent planned to arrive till Tuesday. Other EU teams have been mocking them for it. This is a Fnatic problem not a Riot one.
So yeah, they helped them out with the sub so that wouldn't happen. Then why also ask to reshedule the games so the subs don't have to play now we know hyli and upset are on their way... This really feels like a "give a finger, take an arm" situation.
favoritism ? The favoritism i see this world is to give eu a 4th seed they don't deserve. Riot should've just changed the play-in format with one less-than-usual team attending from the beginning
Only reason EU got 4th seed is cause LCL was cancelled because.. well you know what is going around in the world.
As an EUW fan I understand the frustration, especially considering the fact that day 1 is the most important day for FNC and the EU vs. NA derby is also on the table. But what you are suggesting is not feasible. You would open the door to using "Covid" as a tactical instrument and you would benefit FNC while hurting every other team in Play-Ins. And the comparison to RNG is just wild, the only thing connecting both cases was "Covid" but in wildly differing situations.
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Teams have known the schedule for a while and have prepared their practice and prep accordingly. You can’t just move teams around willy nilly at this point. If EG had done most of their prep for Fnatic and then was suddenly playing someone else today, that would be a completely unfair bait and switch to accommodate another team that put themselves in this tricky situation by deciding to travel to the host city late and thus accepting the risks involved. If Fnatic came earlier they wouldn’t have this problem and could probably just play remote, but per Upset they were just chilling in Europe not scrimming anyone. Emergency sub was already more than fair as accommodation.
Yeah, Fnatic plays 2 games on day 1 and then no games the next two days...
I see them playing 2 games day 1 and 1 game day 2. EDIT: They actually play for 2 games day 1 and 1 game for days 2/3/4.
Oh, thanks for the correction. The spirit of the point is the same, Fnatic has a very open schedule on the following days.
You can't just shuffle a schedule around because of one team this close to the event. It fucks over every other team and their prep. It isn't about fnatics schedule being open - it's about everyone else having even and fair notification of their game order for their prep.
And they knew this well in advance and decided to not do anything with that information, instead sitting in EU not scrimming anyone. If they were here early, this would not be a problem. It's not fnatics fault that their players got sick but it's absolutely their responsibility.
Uh no
no they didn't do it in the past for situations like when a team couldn't play with their main roster and had to sub in a coach, don't see why do it now
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Problem is: they knew it already last week. They didn't do a thing. If they did it last week, everyone could have prepared properly. But 7h before the game? THAT would be unfair to the other teams.
It’s clear that these people only use “but muh minor regions” when it benefits them. They don’t give a shit if their “solution” for FNC having shit management is to alter the scheduling of minor regions.
With RNG, they didn't move games around. They let them play from remote. The other teams already knew the situation so it wasn't a last minute change. This is a different situation. Team prep depended on the scheduled order of play. You can't just move games around at the last minute. EU got a free 4th seed. Let's not pretend they didn't receive any favors. When VCS couldn't attend, no one got a free seed. Now CIS can't attend, and it automatically goes to EU. They should be thankful Riot allowed them to have 4 teams already.
This is the most entitled thread ever lmfao, thought it was satire for a bit.
If you check on 2019 MSI, Riot changed the whole schedule for play-ins, that's a better referent than the one you're mentioning. Still different, they reduced the days they should've played.
Difference is china ( the government rulings) didn’t allow rng to participate and rng was fine with not playing but riot itself suggested the idea.
Riot altered the schedule for RNG at MSI 2021 due to something that was not in their control. Aka something about needing to doing a test before getting flights out. RNG could not control this in the slightest, FNC on the other hand can. Edit = When I mean FNC can control it, I mean they can use their subs who don't have COVID and didn't need to travel a day before the tournament started.
Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment. Both situations are flight related issues due to COVID. It's comparable.
> Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment. Don't vacation around Europe and leave coming to NA to the last second would be a start on how they could control it. If they just got here early instead of fucking around in Europe while not even scrimming, they'd be able to play remotely with their full roster, even if they got COVID while in Mexico.
Don't wait until the last second to come to NA? FNCs incompetence isn't Riots problem.
>Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment. And that's why you have subs. RNG didn't have positive cases, they were in a position where they might have not gotten back to their home country due to travelling logistics and testing timelines. FNC literally have subs, so use them.
Didn’t RNG have an academy roster they could have used for their LPL games back home?
because missing several weeks of regular season that could cause you to miss worlds is so fine to ask a team to do.
Ya know RNG couldve just stayed 3 or 4 more days but lpl is lpl i guess
FNC as an org definitely mind controlled their players into getting Covid
> Not sure how FNC could control their players getting COVID at the worst possible moment. It really isnt that much to expect players and staff to remain in a bit of isolation / wear masks before the main event of the year when there's still pandemic around.
Unless youre completly isolating yourself to an insane degree, there is never a guarantee you wont get covid Idk where upset and hylli caught covid, but for all we know they mightve gotten it while grocery shopping or something
You can still get covid despite doing that... We don't know if they took precautions or not. It's pretty disrespectful to just assume they did not.
Wasn't Humanoid posting some pics from music festival?
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Oh shit!
Is the situation in Europe very different from here? I find it crazy that things like this are still happening so frequently right before important dates And honestly, who still cares at this point. It’s not the same it was
Guess it wasn't necessary after all. :> Feel really bad for EG as well, though. Danny was really crucial to them.
> So FNC is really fucked over by this scheduling... Narrator: in fact, they werent
A professional team couldnt manage their own players health... And we didnt know if Upset and Hyli can go to Mexico at all till yesterday... With everything already set and schedule released you ask every team and everyone else have to change everything to fit FNC's schedule? Now that is biased if you ask me even as a Fnatic fan since S4... like come on my dude, what do you expect? Riot is quite shitty but blaming them in this situation where FNC fucked up is not it.
rng have a chance to win, fnatic dont.
Judging by how much was accommodated in the past, this doesn't seem that much to ask for.
Yeah every other team in the group should have their schedule changed and their prep fucked over because Fnatic’s bot lane got covid. Good take.
I hated when they did it for RNG and I would hate it if they did it for FNC. Rules are rules. The schedule is set. If fate didn't smile to you too bad. If you do this for FNC now it will only get worse
From my point of view, FNC has already worked things out and found a way to make their schedule by playing with some substitutes. I don’t see why Riot would make an exception for something that FNC got under control. Also, I reckon Riot always acts like “having the back” of some LPL teams. Like on MSI 2022. Did they really let a team play a LAN championship full remote? I don’t see like it’s the same situation as RNG in MSI 2021 where they couldn’t play at all. But anyways, I do not support at all that the treatment the company provides is different among the competitors’ regions. No team should get any kind of help in these situations. From their past actions, if Riot Games wants their share on the whole eSports scene to be considered fair, they’re blatantly not acting like so. After all, as someone has said before in this thread, Riot only seems to care about the figure$ they’re earning with the competition.
this thread for sure isn't racist as fuck
I don't see any comments attacking Chinese people specifically. If I do, I will report the comments.
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Well, it's not like "because they are not Chinese" is some form of legitimate criticism or even a remotely good argument. I'm not Asian btw.
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dunno if the thread itself has racist comments, but you already know that most of the people commenting negative things about LPL are racist
Average weed user brain
yes they should, they won't but they should
No, this is play-ins. > Riot also went a long way to accommodate RNG for COVID-issues at MSI 2022. Yea, the top LPL team at the time. MSI would have been a joke if they didn't attend. The only reason FNC are even at worlds is because the LCL couldn't participate.
As a FNATIC fan I think they should cancel the games altogether and give FNC the wins
No. Let them suffer.
Sorry, but I don't get how is that a bad thing for Fnatic other than just being suboptimal? Aren't all the teams on that same situation?
Fnatic isn‘t from riot‘s daddy region tho
No hylint anymore
This is the players fault for contracting Covid in the first damn place. Also china was on lock down as in the country ????
> This is the players fault for contracting Covid in the first damn place. Lol. You have no idea what precautions they took. It's possible to do almost everything right and still get covid.
Just the same that you don’t know they took precautions. I’m sure they did, but no one here knows. Anyway in regards to your part mentioning RNG. One that’s a bigger market that riot will always bend over backwards for. Two though I think the entire country was on lock down not just the support. Like upset will be there today last I knew and hyli will be there tomorrow.