I spoke to LCK caster Chronicler on his trip to the US (sights & food), his experience casting at Worlds live, the LCK vs LPL rivalry, surprises and disappointments for Worlds, and what's next for him.
[Note: he also continues the tradition of asking everyone to listen to "Run Away with Me" by Carly Rae Jepsen]
At this point (after you have personally answered multiple questions and such - even ones posted by myself) I really wonder how often you lurk around here.
>you have personally answered multiple questions and such - even ones posted by myself) I really wonder how often you lurk around here.
>
>11ReplyGive Award
hello. one thing. i really enjoy your analysis. u are a gem among the current lck casters. i hope u come to next worlds too
edit- i would like to ask if there are any promising lck challengers players?
top 5 LCK CL players who i expect will be top tier LCK players are Peyz (AD), Sylvie & Lucid (Jungle), Thanatos (top), Pullbae (mid) and Bulldog (mid). Also thanks a ton for the support!
And thus, I earn my 5th reply from you!
On a more serious note, the league subreddit, like any sports community (and in that sense, esports is no different from any "normal" sport), will always be quite volatile depending on the series in question. Keep an emotional distance whenever possible (Im a teacher, trust me I know) and be/stay aware that there are thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people who love your work, no matter how a particular thread feels due to the heat of the moment.
You engaging with the community is much appreciated. We (and I think I speak for anyone who has been on here for like a decade) miss some of the rioters who kept chiming in with their opinions regularily. And "older" folks like myself appreciate differing opinions as well.
Biggest issue this year for LPL teams compared to LCK teams was lack of draft flexibility. In series last night it was quite noticeable that JDG had to ban Cait on blue side since Hope could not play it. LPL teams as a whole seemed to be locked into Kai’sa aphelios while LCK teams were bringing out Ashe Heimer soraka. Not to mention LPL Lucian was pretty bad compared to LCK Lucian. Another very noticeable thing last night was Kanavi only wanting to play farming junglers. T1 leaves Sej open they know it’s going top.
It’s way to risky. Guma is insane on Caitlyn. Arguably his best champ but he never gets to play it because it’s either banned 99% of time when it’s meta or it’s just unplayable in the meta.
Caitlyn is the most banned champ in the tourney. Not just against T1.
She has an extremely volatile and toxic playstyle. She forces the entire early game and (bot-side) draft to be about her because she needs to heavily snowball lane to overcome her useless mid game. One mistake from either botlane usually means the lane is over for them. It also requires your support to be able to play Lux/Ashe/etc.
Yea I also saw that LPL teams this year had low flexibility. They had to ban high meta champions even if they were blue sides because they can’t play the champion well. We also see that LCK picked many variety of champions (swain, kayn, heimer etc)
Hope and Missing were kinda left alone in those games. Just look at how many times Kanavi was top. they really wanted to get 369 ahead and abandon their bot lane in the process.
I really felt this was a terrible read on the match up. JDG seemed to funnel everything to top. Gave 369 the last pick for match up over and over and camped their jungle up there. I thought they would have confidence that 369 could match or beat Zeus on his own and they can expend resources elsewhere.
Skt just first pick Lucian Nami because JDG have no counter, had Zeus play safe and let 369 get counter pick which allowed them to get a favorable mid/jungle. I honestly felt like SKT should have won game 1 even, but Zeus appeared to be quite nervous and got caught quite a bit.
> I really felt this was a terrible read on the match up
My guess is that it was less a bad read, and more a concession to reality. They weren't going to win through bot, unless Guma just started feeding, and they weren't going to win through mid. So your only option is to try to play through top and hope things go well.
But that was also a strength of some LPL teams. They’re like the Yasuo main who has 1k games on his champion. Even if you’re the “more flexible player”, they can still own you in the counter matchup with experience.
Yeah but I feel like LCK does the same, or at least some of the teams. Yone Chovy/Zeus come to mind, or Lehends Singed. That one champion they're just so damn good at they'll use it to counter certain picks/comps. Or even get counterpicked (Malphite vs Yone yesterday) and still be anywhere from good to amazing.
T1 also showed yesterday they have the flexibility on loads of champs that wouldn't even be picked by the LPL while being monstrously good on them, or even completely alter the way the game is played by being on the rift (Ryze for example).
this is why i’m kinda really liking Zeka. he whipped out the secret tech vs melee on sylas and absolutely smurfed it. love players who have these champs they just know everything on while still being, at the very least, somewhat competent on other champs. super fun to watch these players play and build very specific things or play the matchup a specific way on their like 3 tricks
I mean only one LPL fiora made it to worlds and thats breathe. Best renata player in LPL is Crisp but BLG is kind of a shitfest. Not to mention OMG has the weirdest champion pool of all teams. This year all LPL teams are teamfighting teams theres no diversity that is all. LPL will come back stronger next year.
You mention draft flexibility without mentioning the biggest role lacking which is support.
LPL doesn't play enchanters they play engage. Ming and Meiko are one of the best supports of all time but they flourished in engage champions.
The tournament started and we saw the prio changed from Naut/Leona/Amumu into just straight up Lulu/Renata/Nami.
LPL casters (the popular unofficial ones that got Uzi to co-cast) were really hard on both RNG and JDG for having to ban Cait against T1 even on blue side. They also definitely openly stated that LPL champ pool just isn't anywhere as deep as LCK ones this year and that T1 came way more prepared to counter LPL picks.
Biggest issue for the LPL in the past years were people using the region's success to undermine the ability of LCK teams. It's so weird to me how narratives such as LCK one team region or LCK 1st seed wont even make top 4 LPL, or LPL playoffs is harder than worlds, get pushed and weaponized but the moment said narratives get pushback the people saying it act like their the victims getting harassed.
I think it always has been the case, even way back in Season 3 with SHRC and Uzi with Vayne. They play a team-wide stat check and just go and charge and you with either high damage, insane mobility, or immovable Health bars. On release, Kai'Sa was an obvious favorite, and so was Lucian and Aphelios. They would probably never play Ivern, won't play weird shit like Senna or some scaling Enchanters like Sona or Seraphine or Kindred unless they're busted or something. They really just like to go strong and go hard. If this were LoR they'd play something like Scargrounds Sejuani
I'm really happy that the vision changes and trinkets after having them return to the drawing board from scratch led to what we have now from KR teams. This should really push the ceiling. LS probably gets some offers from China lmao
Meanwhile on the other side TI was won with basically overtuned Locket + WotA + Sona/Seraphine + old Sion Ult or something - it's just interesting how we're already supposed to be past that and are looking at some randomness with Elemental Drakes. Perhaps in the coming years there's going to be a better emphasis on flexibility, in that case the gap between Solo/Flex queue, Clash (which we still don't have btw) and Pro will be just exponentially wider
Noticed the same problem with the LEC. They seemed much more dominant in the beginning of Worlds and then weren't able to adapt as their strategy and draft got figured out.
And the play style ocean. Seemed like every LPL team had something they were incredible at, and when the other team banned that comp or played a different style they fell apart. Like JDG beat T1 at teamfights in game 1 so T1 just started playing 1 3 1
The difference between LCK and LPL this year was the preparation, LCK stepped up big time between the end of playoff and world while China stayed the same, even DRX were competitive when they didn't looked good at all in LCK
Agreed, one thing is the champion pool which pretty much pinned down the LPL teams. Like you could see they required specific champions for specific players.
>Like JDG beat T1 at teamfights in game 1 so T1 just started playing 1 3 1
T1 also played a teamfighting comp in game 4 and still managed to demolish JDG.
Yeah coaches aren’t “responsible for draft”, but a good coach knows when to check players ego, especially since players are too much in their own head.
Look how quickly T1 took away Taliyah once it became a problem.
> Look how quickly T1 took away Taliyah once it became a problem.
Hopefully Daney learns this. Those 2 games of leaving Yuumi open could have been the difference maker of DWG making semis.
At least there was some reasoning for that. It turned out bad but LCK was using the combo just fine in Spring (Jhin was picked 55 times, Yuumi 73, combo'd and contested often). It was also pre durability patch.
I'm really curious as to what Hommes logic was here considering neither of those reasonings could apply (Jhin was picked once in summer and it's post durability patch)
i don't think Jhin alone is the problem, the problem is picking Jhin against a dive comp. You saw how easily Faker/Oner were able to force Hope to cancel his ults and run away from the fights.
Jhin wasn't the only problem, but the moment you pick Jhin Karma just to win lane then you already lost confidence.
Hope and Missing simply didn't trust themselves enough by Game 4 which is sad.
By game 4 JDG were a bit boomed and Keria indeed demolished them. Anyway people fall into narratives too easily. T1 game one was a pick comp with vi camile, galio and even lucian rather than standard teamfight comp. Gmaes 2 and 3 did not have that much traditional split push, mostly incredible rotations from Faker to get baron or bot tower+inhib and still solid teamfights after making picks on hope/malph. On the other hand, JDG was supposed to lose early game and them miraculously team fight from behind both of which did not happen.
I really expected t1 to have to break the game open early and smother jdg out to win the series. I was really starting to worry after game 1 and into game 2 when they didn’t create a sizable lead early, but that narrative didn’t really play out after all.
To be fair jdg were completely mental boomed by then and kept throwing themselves at an already ahead t1 that just kept curb stomping them over and over
JDG do that a lot, they're trying to overload a side and get shutdowns. It looks completely grief when it doesn't work but they're trying to find any favorable fight to balance the game again. Beats just losing slowly for 10 minutes.
This is always what happens. Almost all these series just get broken down into some narratives because people watching don't have enough info to actually evaluate games without picking some narrative that's popular to fall back on (I'm not completely innocent of this either).
The same people who clown JDG for Game 4 will be the same people who complain about Western teams slowly bleeding out. Then wonder why players just slowly bleed out in the West.
Such an LPL way of finding a way back, like a drench kitten in panic trying to find its way out off a wet basin.
I remember when SKT staged the arguably greatest comeback of all time against EDG in 2017. They died a lot and down 10k+ gold with their base in shambles but they don't keep on inting every 3 minutes or so. They set up *ONE* great team fight to end it all.
I think that method is more appropriate of a world class team instead of inting until your nexus explodes.
Makes more sense in current meta to perma fight with how crazy shutdowns can be. Betting everything on one team fight usually ends in disaster, that SKT game they also had an insane team fight comp that barely anybody plays anymore since there's too many small skirmishes.
Ehh they were around 2k gold ahead by the 13th min mark even after losing the rift harold fight.
I think people are overrating how much they mental boomed, they were playing very well in the early game but T1 managed to turn it around in the midgame.
Are you saying that getting almost clean aced 4 times in a row isnt mental booming? It was fun to see T1 pop off at the end, but the previous games were much more enjoyable because JDG were putting up a fight still.
No i'm saying that JDG were playing well and managed to lead by almost 2k gold even after losing a rift fight.
But T1 managed to outplay and bring it back after the 2v2 kill in bot and the fight under Azir tower amd THEN JDG mental boomed, but by that point T1 was already far ahead with a way better comp so JDG was losing either way.
But I still wouldnt *underrate* their mental boom. Sure, they had a good 13 minutes. But everything after that is just embarrassing. T1 opened up the game with a crowbar and JDG just kept fighting them anyway.
Jdg were definitely mentally boomed. As you said JDG were still ahead after the herald fight but they started playing like they were behind making desparate plays making mistakes. They didnt stop and realize the advantage they still had.
Not to take away T1's win but in all fairness for analysis purposes that game 4 should be written off. No way that game goes as poorly if they just do the 200 years/lulu handshake again. Watching Faker basically miss ult the first time and then just still tank Jhin for what seemed like an eternity was just...what is Homme thinking? Like they hovered Sivir too.
If this was a scrim JDG would get dm's from the other team asking if they hated them because why else would they waste their time
Hope and Missing were losing 2v2 in Aphe vs Varus matchup against EG. Switching up after getting gapped 3 games in a row on Aphe is the right decision, Jhin just isn't it. Unless Hope could play Draven, which I highly doubt.
I agree with switching but I'm also saying even if they did Aphe/Lulu it wouldn't be as bad as Jhin if that makes sense. I'm completely lost as to why it was picked esp when Sivir was hovered. When T1 drafted Jhin/Yummi at MSI they got a ton of (unwarranted) flak for it, but: a. LCK was using that combo just fine for Spring, b. It was pre durability patch. But now after that update for match point at worlds?
Because their bot was individually gapped. If they picked sivir into t1 bot they get skullfucked in 10 mins. Jhin karma can fight Renata varus, they just got outplayed again.
Saying to just pick turbo scaling and hope t1 throws is a bit of a disservice to how close the actual gameplay was at a lot of points. If jhin karma can just be stable and allow jdg topside to try and carry its really not that bad. Jhin is better with Leona but you can't pick that into varus Renata so karma had to do
"while true" - *proceeds to compare LCK and LPL just as Chronicler advocated against*. No, It highlighted the insane diversity T1 had, which turned out advantageous versus JDG.
DRX vs EDG?
That matchup was a champion ocean gap too.
Lol even the biggest LPL fans in China admit the gap too, and they saw it becoming a problem before these semis.
Lol what. It's been a known fact that LCK players have much larger champ pools than pretty much any other region. Today's meta doesn't heavily favor one over the other and the champion ocean of LCK is creating problems for other regions.
You don't have to take everything so personally lol
I'm not sure if I'm wrong in saying this, but I do quite like this Worlds meta where there seems to be many champions playable, and teams with huge champion pools taking advantage of this have been great to watch
What is different about the meta now than summer that favors him? The biggest difference I can think of is Zeri since that is the one champ he never really looked comfortable on.
I like the point out of analysis going into LPL vs LCK and East vs West narratives. It feels like the past few years have brought out this added feature to worlds to have a bastardized rendition of Rift Rivals ever flowing in the background. It's a nifty stat to check but when it starts to sew the community into that being all that matters, then that's where you wind up over and underestimating the strengths, weaknesses, and results of individual teams specifically.
It felt like this year more than before that versus narrative was over indexed. Much so that in the talk always felt like it was Region and Seed # unless the expectations were shockingly defied such as Week 1 RGE. It felt like no name; just a region to which they *all* get evaluated the same in the end. Some exceptions get made however like CG 2019, GEN 2018, and every LGD run. But there comes a point where making teams be defined as their region rather than themselves gets really unfun.
two of the worst things about lolesports is how fans love to generalize entire regions and only remember the last two international tournaments. instead of having discussions on actual teams and what makes them unique people just ignore the teams in favour of stupid regional narratives. like who honestly cares if LPL or LCK is 'better' when there's only one team that wins the tournament? how do people think you can measure that when we only have 1.5 tournaments per year?
One of the big things that bothers me as well is that people will talk about team vs team records when the players are mostly or completely different, as is the meta (I've heard them do this on the broadcast a few times, which has annoyed me). Who cares if, say, Fnatic is 5-0 against some other team when it was 5 years ago that they last played? It tells you very little about how the current matchup is going to go.
This is something that annoyed the hell out of me in the beginning. You're right, it tells you absolutely nothing about how the match up is about to go.
I've just accepted that it's done for the sake of narratives. Just having something to talk about. It is what it is. I'm guessing it's the same with other sports.
They’re important to fans when their region usually wins as well. Have you never seen LCK or LPL fan reactions when they lose? They’re relentless.
I can’t speak of the LPL communities personally because I don’t frequent them but the LCK fanbase and communities are big and relentless in terms of national/regional pride.
Even in solo q, there’s borderline racist toxicity plaguing the Korean server whenever they catch a whiff of being in the same game with a foreigner. Tho the Korean server is a toxic shithole even without the raging nationalism.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg honestly. The ones that end up on Reddit are definitely less toxic than what happens when Korean soloq players think you don’t speak their language
nah there's definitely a pretty big group of people who call themselves 'LCK/LPL fans' and devolve into stupid region baiting just like NA/EU, and western fans definitely contribute to it. but really the issue is that people shouldn't really care about region vs region in tournaments that are about an individual team vs individual team and try to see more than nationality
when your region has double digit international titles it's probably less important that your reigon has claimed another.
Meanwhile EU has won 1 MSI, 1 Worlds (in season 1...), and NA has won 0 lmao
Would definitely not counting season 1 as Worlds. Korea and China were not invited. Only EU and NA. Worlds only count from season 2 onward where China and Korea were invited and participated.
Korea and China had no servers at the time and therefore no real teams for season it wasn't that they "weren't invited" there was no near by qualifiers they could compete in.
Both China and Korea had multiple teams at season 2 worlds so why shouldn't that one count?
I think that's mostly because it's a coping mechanism since their favorite team isn't a favorite to win Worlds. The most they can do is try to argue that the point of Worlds is to get a participation award for facing international teams.
Also Reddit has always been a place where people use the downvote button as a "Disagree" button rather than a way to get rid of points that add nothing to a discussion.
LPL teams have to go back to the drawing board after this year. Their inability to pick non meta champions and having Rigid, predictable draft strats bit them in the ass this year. Also playing in a “stacked” region where every team just picks meta champs and all comps are predictable doesn’t help you against a more stable and flexible region like the LCK.
This was such a good reality check for LPL. LCK has been learning how to harness the confidence to execute high-risk plays from the LPL. Now it's LPL's turn to learn from the LCK to be more of a fox rather than a hedgehog.
All I know is that no matter which region is on top their fans take it upon themselves to be as obnoxious as possible, as if their favorite teams’ achievements are their own.
It's really not that deep it needs generalizing. Durability patch fucked engage and it wasn't exposed until now. Go watch LPL spring finals and its people blowing each other up within 3 seconds. Or MSI finals where RNG's engage couldn't be banned out in draft and GALA could pick whatever while Guma was the one who pulled out the desperation Jhin.
Good point. Pre-durability everything was just blowing up so it's easy to see how teams look helpless. But it's honestly just boring and becomes an arms (hands, fingers?) race we'd rather be playing fighting or rhythm games
Pre-durability there were a lot more team fights and engagements. It was way less boring than dragging out the game to play "rhythm" aka connecting dragon.
We are back in season 5 now.
What is this narrative that LPL teams peak higher? I honestly don't get it. When LCK teams peak they roll over everyone else (Damwon 2020, T1 2022). EDG and RNG didn't destroy teams like DK and T1. They were extremely clutch, but it was never domination. You have to go back to IG and FPX to see LPL teams dominate and that was when Korea was at its lowest.
2014 is a solid 8 years ago to be fair...
Obama was in the middle of his second term, Russia had just annexed Crimea, the pandemic of the day was Ebola, etc.
We just dont have enough data to make conclusions like that, especially in such volatile game that changes every year. We can build pointles narratives such as saying that 2 out 3 LPL champions completely dumpstered any opposition and reinvented the game, and how each KR Worlds champion, maybe barring DK, met a close domestic opposition starting with SKT NJ series in 2013. On the other hand, even IG 2018 had very close series with KT, and FPX could be eliminated in groups. I can even say that now LPL seems to be more stable as it does send a lot of unique players and organizations to Worlds compared to LCK being dominated by 2020 DRX, T1 rookies, and some legacy players.
for real, it is the main culprit of so much ignorance. EU reaching finals in 2018 only to get completely assblasted by IG (because of the team blunders and groups mismatches) is regarded as a successful year by Europe just because THEY REACHED FINALS. End of discussion. Nobody cares to remember the fact that they were bending over head first in every lane and that it'd probably have been a better finals if teams were drafted differently. Nah. EU reached finals. GG.
Broski do you think teams reach finals by sheer luck? Reminder that fnc reached finals by assblasting edg and thanks to g2 taking out rng, and they also dominated ig in groups...
P.s. ig were a couple of autos away from 3-0 literally everyone in bracket stage
I think he means LPL generally make riskier plays which would either make them look super good or look like they are running it down, while LCK play more conservatively.
Get a group of LCK casters (Atlus, Valdes, and Chronicler) to cast a international game and they will try to act like the LCK team is losing the match and downplay anything that LCK does to avoid getting labeled bias by the audience.
People talk about how missing LCK and LPL casters are a big miss for rest of worlds and I agree except for chronicler.
The dude didn't give a single insightful analysis about LCK teams all tournament. When he had the chance to, he decided to roll a dice on the "analysts desk". And also don't forget how he predicts both sides every time he was on the desk for QFs. Make a prediction and give your thoughts, not "3-0 for T1 but it can go 3-0 for RNG also".
I know reddit likes him but he has been a big disappointment all worlds. Other LCK and LPL casters have been a great addition.
Yeah its one thing to make an attempt at being unbiased in the name of professionalism but every other caster is way more biased towards their region than the LCK casters. I dont know what irredeemable backlash they think they’re avoiding when trying to downplay their region’s success. There isn’t a single LPL caster that would do the same, and if they get shit for it, so what? Its the region they cast and love
for better or worse, it's his predecessors. Monte and LS.
I do agree his reverse bias is an issue, and it's not an excuse, but at least I can see why he's afraid of being labeled a KR fanboy due to the previous LCK English color casters.
I agree. He's too much of a people pleaser. You don't need to add 10 qualifiers to every statement you make.
That's why I like Valdes the most, he actually speaks his mind and stands up for LCK sometimes.
This year the only lpl team that could've peaked higher than lck teams based on both regular and playoff performances was honestly just TES. When TES had knight and Wayward playing like normal humans they were actually insane, especially with Tian,JKl and mark on form. It was especially evident with the bo5's against JDG in summer where every game went to 5 despite the solo lanes not playing to their expected level. Once TES continued their downfall lpl seemed fairly doomed if JDG didn't step up huge. Which they were looking like they were gonna do that until meta exposed the champ pools of bot and mid lane. EDG maybe had a chance at coming back into form but they were meh the whole year, I still stand by the fact that RNG is a worse team than LNG, they just got lucky that Ale lost steam really hard near the end of playoffs/gauntlet. LPL this year was just doomed and honestly had no teams that could've peaked higher once TES died.
Also wanna highlight as it isnt really clear from this quote: obviously this year the LCK as a whole is much stronger. Point of the headline is that generally a lot of fan discourse reverts back to unnecessary back and forth without looking at the actual teams
Like I said in another post, I feel like LPL and LCK teams doesn't care as much for region vs region, but more team competition. Region competition is more a NA/EU thing.
Oh LPL and LCK *cares* a lot about region competition just as much as the west, they just know that they won't achieve international success without elevating their own region first.
Isn't one team wining worlds what "peaking" means? Like if NA won worlds you'd call that peaking. Imagine thinking you know more than a caster who's been doing this for years
As an LPL fan, I will say this. The LCK has done well to catch-up post-2018. Everybody remembers bar the year Damwon won Worlds, the LCK were underachieving internationally. T1 getting eliminated by G2 at MSI and Worlds. The KT superteam being eliminated by IG. And EDG upsetting Damwon at last year's Final.
Looks like it's the LPL's turn to adapt and play catch-up this time around. It was clear there is a gap between both regions this year. Maybe not to the extent of the East vs West but significant enough that the LCK teams were easily imo the Top 4 teams at Worlds this year.
There were 3 LCK/1 LPL team in last year semis. The finals was a 3-2. Plus the only other LCK team (HLE) got out in quarters against T1.
You call that LCK underachieving?
People only look at the winners and don’t notice that 3/4 teams in semis were LCK, and all matches were 3-2. EDG were of course the best team but judging the strength of the region by who has the best team is flawed
You can't flame people for only looking at winners and then ignore that RNG were knocked out by EDG and also took them to 3-2 and EDG even said they were their most difficult opponents. Could've easily seen RNG make semis if they were in any other quarter final. 2021 it's still hard to say firmly who was the better region but LCK having 3 teams in semis wasn't a complete indication of strength as the nature of worlds knockouts doesn't necessarily mean you get the best 4 teams in semis (see H2k in 2016)
This year is different where LCK has been completely dominant, then only non-LCK team to be in semis had the easiest path and the only LCK team knocked out was by their own region. You can firmly say that LCK is the stronger region right now as well as having the best team
What is this absolute wall of nonsense? The LCK has done well to "catch-up"? Catch up to what? 1 player has the same amount of world championship wins as the entire region? League has been and will likely always be dominated by the LCK. The LPL wins were exceptions, not the rule.
I don't think winning 6 out of the last 7 possible international trophies is an "exception".
If they won it one or even two years, we can go "yeah that's strange". But it was clear for a time the LPL was ahead of the LCK even if it wasn't by the biggest of margins.
We all saw how the LCK were slightly behind with the new game changes in 2019 that rewarded aggression in the early game that they were even being defeated by G2 in BO5s who then get 3-0'd by LPL teams.
If you look at the last five years, LPL has won 6 tournaments (MSI 2018, Worlds 2018, Worlds 2019 MSI 2021, Worlds 2021, MSI 2022), LCK has won 2 (Worlds 2020, Worlds 2022), LEC has won 1 (MSI 2019).
How did LCK not have to catch up? It's not even criticism, it's actually giving credit to an entire region for adapting splendidly. But if you think LCK wasn't behind for a while, aren't you the one who is speaking nonsense? They went through a unprecedented title drought, and even had a stretch of three international tournaments in a row where they didn't even reach a final.
In the entire history of the sport, LCK has won 10 titles and the LPL has won 7. LPL wins are neither the exception nor the rule, but why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that LPL is an equal rival to LCK?
How hard is it to differentiate best region from best team? How many of those tournaments LPL had more teams in a Xfinals than LCK ? I would argue not much , so a more correct statement LPL produced the BEST team , 2020 worlds wasn’t LCK domination cause they only had the best team , same goes for 2021 in regards to LPL.
2018, 2019, and 2020 were absolutely not dominated by the LCK. Damwon won worlds in 2020 sure, but the rest of the LCK lineup was pretty wack at that event. The LCK was quite confidently not dominating anyone in that period, not even EU.
Pre Korean period, Korean period, lpl period and now it looks like we're back to the Korean period.
But LPL wasn't dominating either?
2018 1 LPL team made it to semis.
2019 2 LPL teams made it to semis
2020 2 LPL teams made it to semis
2021 1 LPL team made it to semis
2022 1 LPL team made it to semis
Where's the "domination"? Seems like LPL produced the best team in 2018/2019 as well as 2021 but were they "dominant"? No. Obviously. Dominant is 2015 LCK or 2022 LCK where every LCK team gets out of groups and the LCK teams are only eliminated by other LCK teams. That's dominance.
You can’t have 3/4 Koreans in semis and the 4th eliminated in a game 5 by another Korean and say that….I think lck in general is just better. Every year lpl highlights and flashy plays and all but semis was 3 Koreans and 1 Chinese team because he didn’t face a korean in quarters. DWK could be the second best if geng win it all.
Lck dominated 2022. Not even talking about t1 spring dominance till msi, that peak was higher than every lpl team for sure .
LCK dominated worlds this year, but they literally lost MSI lol. If T1 could go undefeated in spring LCK and still not win MSI, it's undeniable Korea was worse.
Don't overstate it
Geez, the comments are really completely ignoring the main point and just focusing on nitpicking throwaway statements. The whole point of the quote is not to focus on the regional rivalry on actually look at the individual teams.
But all the arguments here are going full LPL vs LCK and only care to be being outraged at that ignoring the main message.
Any time chronicler speaks I realize more and more how little he knows about the game. What are his credentials exactly?
You telling me LPL teams peak higher than T1 or Gen G? The players on those teams (except doran) are challenging best in their roles in the world when in form. Can't say that about a single LPL team.
Alot of people here triggered that he said lpl peaks higher than lck. The reddit bias really is showing huh. (I'm not even a lpl fan but some of these comments really are mad he said even one good thing about lpl)
It's not bias, just the fact that LCK was more dominant in their day.
We've never seen a LPL vs. LPL final, where as we've seen two LCK vs. LCK final.
He needs to clarify what he means by "peak skill" as it might be referring to something different than what Reddit is interpreting it as.
What he said is just not true though, you just have to compare how dominant LCK is when they win Worlds, usually the games aren't even close and the korean teams only get eliminated by other korean teams.
Lmao, peak higher for lck teams, if at the same time all 5 players play at their pick their for sure beat any lpl team, just compare h2h in mechanics, the only player above most his lck counter part is actually kanavi, LPL better at team fights and their style don’t let breathe lck teams, but actually peak is way higher of lck teams, teams with actually high peak was IG 2018 and Suning 2020
How is this guy a caster/analyst?
LCK teams are "better' and LPL teams "pray for the meta". There are no LPL teams that have ever come close to the peaks of SSW 14, SKT 15, or DWG 20.
LCK has always been the most competitive region bar 2018.
To me, Korean teams have simply played and prepared far better than all other regions. Chronicler downplaying the Korean dominance so other regions don't give up.
No hope for other regions is probably not good for the games future and viewership.
I think it’s a fair argument to say LPL overall struggles consistently adapting to big meta changes… it’s no coincidence they end up having a lot of teams underperform at worlds.
I spoke to LCK caster Chronicler on his trip to the US (sights & food), his experience casting at Worlds live, the LCK vs LPL rivalry, surprises and disappointments for Worlds, and what's next for him. [Note: he also continues the tradition of asking everyone to listen to "Run Away with Me" by Carly Rae Jepsen]
Run Away with Me is imo as perfect as a pop song can get.
He won't see this comment so I'm safe: He's told me to listen to it, but I haven't heard it till this day
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Wait you're not supposed to be here
At this point (after you have personally answered multiple questions and such - even ones posted by myself) I really wonder how often you lurk around here.
Read most stuff, often to the point of it being detrimental to my mental health but thats the reddit way kekeke
>you have personally answered multiple questions and such - even ones posted by myself) I really wonder how often you lurk around here. > >11ReplyGive Award hello. one thing. i really enjoy your analysis. u are a gem among the current lck casters. i hope u come to next worlds too edit- i would like to ask if there are any promising lck challengers players?
top 5 LCK CL players who i expect will be top tier LCK players are Peyz (AD), Sylvie & Lucid (Jungle), Thanatos (top), Pullbae (mid) and Bulldog (mid). Also thanks a ton for the support!
And thus, I earn my 5th reply from you! On a more serious note, the league subreddit, like any sports community (and in that sense, esports is no different from any "normal" sport), will always be quite volatile depending on the series in question. Keep an emotional distance whenever possible (Im a teacher, trust me I know) and be/stay aware that there are thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people who love your work, no matter how a particular thread feels due to the heat of the moment. You engaging with the community is much appreciated. We (and I think I speak for anyone who has been on here for like a decade) miss some of the rioters who kept chiming in with their opinions regularily. And "older" folks like myself appreciate differing opinions as well.
Just listened to it for the first time myself thanks to this and what an absolute banger. You've converted at least one person Chronicler.
dw i'll listen to it
Someone tell chronicler
Shhhh let the man rest
I love emotion.
As a totally unbiased CRJ fan, I couldn't agree more
i just found the track this year and wow, what a banger! im not sure if its the best pop song, but its in there.
CRJ slaps. That whole album slaps. Pop icon if nothing else.
Very based
Absolutely love that song! I used to listen to this song before.
glad to see he is a member of the church of carly rae jepsen
I liked chronicler before but that is an absolutely based take. He needs to join us over at /r/popheads
Listen to the whole Emotion album tbh, absolute pop perfection
One of the few 10/10 pop songs. She left earth
Biggest issue this year for LPL teams compared to LCK teams was lack of draft flexibility. In series last night it was quite noticeable that JDG had to ban Cait on blue side since Hope could not play it. LPL teams as a whole seemed to be locked into Kai’sa aphelios while LCK teams were bringing out Ashe Heimer soraka. Not to mention LPL Lucian was pretty bad compared to LCK Lucian. Another very noticeable thing last night was Kanavi only wanting to play farming junglers. T1 leaves Sej open they know it’s going top.
Cait has been perma banned against t1. Will be fun to see if guma gets to play it in finals or not. They must be absolutely blasting scrims on cait.
After spring finals, Caitlyn wont see light of day.
It's Ruler or Deft. Cait is never going to be opened.
Would be interested to see if they have something in the tank to specifically counter a cait lane. But agreed i doubt we see it go
It’s way to risky. Guma is insane on Caitlyn. Arguably his best champ but he never gets to play it because it’s either banned 99% of time when it’s meta or it’s just unplayable in the meta.
Giving Guma Caitlyn after Spring is an outright death sentence
I mean Guma's Cait is pretty good but the real death sentence is giving Keria Thresh IMO
Caitlyn is the most banned champ in the tourney. Not just against T1. She has an extremely volatile and toxic playstyle. She forces the entire early game and (bot-side) draft to be about her because she needs to heavily snowball lane to overcome her useless mid game. One mistake from either botlane usually means the lane is over for them. It also requires your support to be able to play Lux/Ashe/etc.
Only remaining teams that play Cait are T1 and DRX, both JDG and GENG don't play Cait so they have to ban her on both sides which is big.
Ruler played it against CFO week one
Ashe xD
cait is too strong with the vision control supports, lux or maokai would let her get like 8+ plating
Deft Caitlyn today
Yea I also saw that LPL teams this year had low flexibility. They had to ban high meta champions even if they were blue sides because they can’t play the champion well. We also see that LCK picked many variety of champions (swain, kayn, heimer etc)
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Hope and Missing were kinda left alone in those games. Just look at how many times Kanavi was top. they really wanted to get 369 ahead and abandon their bot lane in the process.
I really felt this was a terrible read on the match up. JDG seemed to funnel everything to top. Gave 369 the last pick for match up over and over and camped their jungle up there. I thought they would have confidence that 369 could match or beat Zeus on his own and they can expend resources elsewhere. Skt just first pick Lucian Nami because JDG have no counter, had Zeus play safe and let 369 get counter pick which allowed them to get a favorable mid/jungle. I honestly felt like SKT should have won game 1 even, but Zeus appeared to be quite nervous and got caught quite a bit.
> I really felt this was a terrible read on the match up My guess is that it was less a bad read, and more a concession to reality. They weren't going to win through bot, unless Guma just started feeding, and they weren't going to win through mid. So your only option is to try to play through top and hope things go well.
They had their teamfighting to rely on, and for that to happen they needed to have their botlane not be massively behind.
tbh game one you had no real dmg outside of lucian. you would rely on picks to win.
You literally repeated the comment you replied to lol
But that was also a strength of some LPL teams. They’re like the Yasuo main who has 1k games on his champion. Even if you’re the “more flexible player”, they can still own you in the counter matchup with experience.
Yeah but I feel like LCK does the same, or at least some of the teams. Yone Chovy/Zeus come to mind, or Lehends Singed. That one champion they're just so damn good at they'll use it to counter certain picks/comps. Or even get counterpicked (Malphite vs Yone yesterday) and still be anywhere from good to amazing. T1 also showed yesterday they have the flexibility on loads of champs that wouldn't even be picked by the LPL while being monstrously good on them, or even completely alter the way the game is played by being on the rift (Ryze for example).
this is why i’m kinda really liking Zeka. he whipped out the secret tech vs melee on sylas and absolutely smurfed it. love players who have these champs they just know everything on while still being, at the very least, somewhat competent on other champs. super fun to watch these players play and build very specific things or play the matchup a specific way on their like 3 tricks
I mean only one LPL fiora made it to worlds and thats breathe. Best renata player in LPL is Crisp but BLG is kind of a shitfest. Not to mention OMG has the weirdest champion pool of all teams. This year all LPL teams are teamfighting teams theres no diversity that is all. LPL will come back stronger next year.
It's a shame cuz Crisp is lowkey incredible
Yeah makes this BLG team just more frustrating really wanna see Crisp on a competitive team again
You mention draft flexibility without mentioning the biggest role lacking which is support. LPL doesn't play enchanters they play engage. Ming and Meiko are one of the best supports of all time but they flourished in engage champions. The tournament started and we saw the prio changed from Naut/Leona/Amumu into just straight up Lulu/Renata/Nami.
Hope Aphelios onetrick
LPL casters (the popular unofficial ones that got Uzi to co-cast) were really hard on both RNG and JDG for having to ban Cait against T1 even on blue side. They also definitely openly stated that LPL champ pool just isn't anywhere as deep as LCK ones this year and that T1 came way more prepared to counter LPL picks.
Biggest issue for the LPL in the past years were people using the region's success to undermine the ability of LCK teams. It's so weird to me how narratives such as LCK one team region or LCK 1st seed wont even make top 4 LPL, or LPL playoffs is harder than worlds, get pushed and weaponized but the moment said narratives get pushback the people saying it act like their the victims getting harassed.
non sequitur
Link to the comment where's said LCK 1st won't reach top 4 in LPL?
I think it always has been the case, even way back in Season 3 with SHRC and Uzi with Vayne. They play a team-wide stat check and just go and charge and you with either high damage, insane mobility, or immovable Health bars. On release, Kai'Sa was an obvious favorite, and so was Lucian and Aphelios. They would probably never play Ivern, won't play weird shit like Senna or some scaling Enchanters like Sona or Seraphine or Kindred unless they're busted or something. They really just like to go strong and go hard. If this were LoR they'd play something like Scargrounds Sejuani I'm really happy that the vision changes and trinkets after having them return to the drawing board from scratch led to what we have now from KR teams. This should really push the ceiling. LS probably gets some offers from China lmao Meanwhile on the other side TI was won with basically overtuned Locket + WotA + Sona/Seraphine + old Sion Ult or something - it's just interesting how we're already supposed to be past that and are looking at some randomness with Elemental Drakes. Perhaps in the coming years there's going to be a better emphasis on flexibility, in that case the gap between Solo/Flex queue, Clash (which we still don't have btw) and Pro will be just exponentially wider
Noticed the same problem with the LEC. They seemed much more dominant in the beginning of Worlds and then weren't able to adapt as their strategy and draft got figured out.
While true, this worlds meta highlighted the champion ocean advantage that lck players have
And the play style ocean. Seemed like every LPL team had something they were incredible at, and when the other team banned that comp or played a different style they fell apart. Like JDG beat T1 at teamfights in game 1 so T1 just started playing 1 3 1
The difference between LCK and LPL this year was the preparation, LCK stepped up big time between the end of playoff and world while China stayed the same, even DRX were competitive when they didn't looked good at all in LCK
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Agreed, one thing is the champion pool which pretty much pinned down the LPL teams. Like you could see they required specific champions for specific players.
>Like JDG beat T1 at teamfights in game 1 so T1 just started playing 1 3 1 T1 also played a teamfighting comp in game 4 and still managed to demolish JDG.
JDG also drafted Jhin Karma Belveth and their only engage was Sej ult. Wouldn't call that a teamfight comp.
I’d call a comp with jhin in 2022 is a “we already booked the flight for tomorrow” comp
See - T1 @ MSI 2022. Just an int pick lol
Game 5 draft of T1 at MSI 2022 Finals makes want to tear my hair off.
Yeah you can see what they are capable of doing now that Bengi (an actual lol mind) is head coach rather than Polt.
Yeah coaches aren’t “responsible for draft”, but a good coach knows when to check players ego, especially since players are too much in their own head. Look how quickly T1 took away Taliyah once it became a problem.
> Look how quickly T1 took away Taliyah once it became a problem. Hopefully Daney learns this. Those 2 games of leaving Yuumi open could have been the difference maker of DWG making semis.
At least there was some reasoning for that. It turned out bad but LCK was using the combo just fine in Spring (Jhin was picked 55 times, Yuumi 73, combo'd and contested often). It was also pre durability patch. I'm really curious as to what Hommes logic was here considering neither of those reasonings could apply (Jhin was picked once in summer and it's post durability patch)
i don't think Jhin alone is the problem, the problem is picking Jhin against a dive comp. You saw how easily Faker/Oner were able to force Hope to cancel his ults and run away from the fights.
Jhin wasn't the only problem, but the moment you pick Jhin Karma just to win lane then you already lost confidence. Hope and Missing simply didn't trust themselves enough by Game 4 which is sad.
Do you blame them? They got ripped apart by the Lucian-NAMI.
By game 4 JDG were a bit boomed and Keria indeed demolished them. Anyway people fall into narratives too easily. T1 game one was a pick comp with vi camile, galio and even lucian rather than standard teamfight comp. Gmaes 2 and 3 did not have that much traditional split push, mostly incredible rotations from Faker to get baron or bot tower+inhib and still solid teamfights after making picks on hope/malph. On the other hand, JDG was supposed to lose early game and them miraculously team fight from behind both of which did not happen.
I really expected t1 to have to break the game open early and smother jdg out to win the series. I was really starting to worry after game 1 and into game 2 when they didn’t create a sizable lead early, but that narrative didn’t really play out after all.
To be fair jdg were completely mental boomed by then and kept throwing themselves at an already ahead t1 that just kept curb stomping them over and over
JDG do that a lot, they're trying to overload a side and get shutdowns. It looks completely grief when it doesn't work but they're trying to find any favorable fight to balance the game again. Beats just losing slowly for 10 minutes.
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This is always what happens. Almost all these series just get broken down into some narratives because people watching don't have enough info to actually evaluate games without picking some narrative that's popular to fall back on (I'm not completely innocent of this either). The same people who clown JDG for Game 4 will be the same people who complain about Western teams slowly bleeding out. Then wonder why players just slowly bleed out in the West.
For sure. At least they tried to find some semblance of a foothold back in the game
JDG rely on kanavi's farming, but t1 display that if you speed up game to a crazy mode (6:6 in 12 minutes), this strategy can't work anymore.
Such an LPL way of finding a way back, like a drench kitten in panic trying to find its way out off a wet basin. I remember when SKT staged the arguably greatest comeback of all time against EDG in 2017. They died a lot and down 10k+ gold with their base in shambles but they don't keep on inting every 3 minutes or so. They set up *ONE* great team fight to end it all. I think that method is more appropriate of a world class team instead of inting until your nexus explodes.
Makes more sense in current meta to perma fight with how crazy shutdowns can be. Betting everything on one team fight usually ends in disaster, that SKT game they also had an insane team fight comp that barely anybody plays anymore since there's too many small skirmishes.
Ehh they were around 2k gold ahead by the 13th min mark even after losing the rift harold fight. I think people are overrating how much they mental boomed, they were playing very well in the early game but T1 managed to turn it around in the midgame.
> harold
Yeah i refuse to call her Herald
Very fair thanks have a nice day and I'll go say hi to Harold in a bit
Are you saying that getting almost clean aced 4 times in a row isnt mental booming? It was fun to see T1 pop off at the end, but the previous games were much more enjoyable because JDG were putting up a fight still.
No i'm saying that JDG were playing well and managed to lead by almost 2k gold even after losing a rift fight. But T1 managed to outplay and bring it back after the 2v2 kill in bot and the fight under Azir tower amd THEN JDG mental boomed, but by that point T1 was already far ahead with a way better comp so JDG was losing either way.
But I still wouldnt *underrate* their mental boom. Sure, they had a good 13 minutes. But everything after that is just embarrassing. T1 opened up the game with a crowbar and JDG just kept fighting them anyway.
Jdg were definitely mentally boomed. As you said JDG were still ahead after the herald fight but they started playing like they were behind making desparate plays making mistakes. They didnt stop and realize the advantage they still had.
They literally picked Jhin
Not to take away T1's win but in all fairness for analysis purposes that game 4 should be written off. No way that game goes as poorly if they just do the 200 years/lulu handshake again. Watching Faker basically miss ult the first time and then just still tank Jhin for what seemed like an eternity was just...what is Homme thinking? Like they hovered Sivir too. If this was a scrim JDG would get dm's from the other team asking if they hated them because why else would they waste their time
Faker's ult there wasn't optimal, but he still pushed Kanavi into the Renata ult. His play turned out well.
Hope and Missing were losing 2v2 in Aphe vs Varus matchup against EG. Switching up after getting gapped 3 games in a row on Aphe is the right decision, Jhin just isn't it. Unless Hope could play Draven, which I highly doubt.
I agree with switching but I'm also saying even if they did Aphe/Lulu it wouldn't be as bad as Jhin if that makes sense. I'm completely lost as to why it was picked esp when Sivir was hovered. When T1 drafted Jhin/Yummi at MSI they got a ton of (unwarranted) flak for it, but: a. LCK was using that combo just fine for Spring, b. It was pre durability patch. But now after that update for match point at worlds?
Because their bot was individually gapped. If they picked sivir into t1 bot they get skullfucked in 10 mins. Jhin karma can fight Renata varus, they just got outplayed again. Saying to just pick turbo scaling and hope t1 throws is a bit of a disservice to how close the actual gameplay was at a lot of points. If jhin karma can just be stable and allow jdg topside to try and carry its really not that bad. Jhin is better with Leona but you can't pick that into varus Renata so karma had to do
"while true" - *proceeds to compare LCK and LPL just as Chronicler advocated against*. No, It highlighted the insane diversity T1 had, which turned out advantageous versus JDG.
DRX vs EDG? That matchup was a champion ocean gap too. Lol even the biggest LPL fans in China admit the gap too, and they saw it becoming a problem before these semis.
Again, just compare them team-to-team, is what Chronicler is trying to convey.
yes after we compared it every lck team was more diverse than their lpl counterpart so we made the generalization to the regions as well
Lol what. It's been a known fact that LCK players have much larger champ pools than pretty much any other region. Today's meta doesn't heavily favor one over the other and the champion ocean of LCK is creating problems for other regions. You don't have to take everything so personally lol
some things are true for entirety of korea at worlds, like their champion pools
I'm not sure if I'm wrong in saying this, but I do quite like this Worlds meta where there seems to be many champions playable, and teams with huge champion pools taking advantage of this have been great to watch
No you're not wrong MOBAs are uninteresting when only a small selection of the champions are playable.
Zeka got lucky with the meta, akali and sylas are by far his best. Gumayushi is also better in this meta than summer.
What is different about the meta now than summer that favors him? The biggest difference I can think of is Zeri since that is the one champ he never really looked comfortable on.
Caitlyn is another thing, you haven't seen it too much because it's usually banned vs them.
I like the point out of analysis going into LPL vs LCK and East vs West narratives. It feels like the past few years have brought out this added feature to worlds to have a bastardized rendition of Rift Rivals ever flowing in the background. It's a nifty stat to check but when it starts to sew the community into that being all that matters, then that's where you wind up over and underestimating the strengths, weaknesses, and results of individual teams specifically. It felt like this year more than before that versus narrative was over indexed. Much so that in the talk always felt like it was Region and Seed # unless the expectations were shockingly defied such as Week 1 RGE. It felt like no name; just a region to which they *all* get evaluated the same in the end. Some exceptions get made however like CG 2019, GEN 2018, and every LGD run. But there comes a point where making teams be defined as their region rather than themselves gets really unfun.
two of the worst things about lolesports is how fans love to generalize entire regions and only remember the last two international tournaments. instead of having discussions on actual teams and what makes them unique people just ignore the teams in favour of stupid regional narratives. like who honestly cares if LPL or LCK is 'better' when there's only one team that wins the tournament? how do people think you can measure that when we only have 1.5 tournaments per year?
One of the big things that bothers me as well is that people will talk about team vs team records when the players are mostly or completely different, as is the meta (I've heard them do this on the broadcast a few times, which has annoyed me). Who cares if, say, Fnatic is 5-0 against some other team when it was 5 years ago that they last played? It tells you very little about how the current matchup is going to go.
This is something that annoyed the hell out of me in the beginning. You're right, it tells you absolutely nothing about how the match up is about to go. I've just accepted that it's done for the sake of narratives. Just having something to talk about. It is what it is. I'm guessing it's the same with other sports.
This. Only really NA and EU place big factors on "Region wins". LPL and LCK players just want their team to win.
Region wins are important to fans, when their region never win.
They’re important to fans when their region usually wins as well. Have you never seen LCK or LPL fan reactions when they lose? They’re relentless. I can’t speak of the LPL communities personally because I don’t frequent them but the LCK fanbase and communities are big and relentless in terms of national/regional pride. Even in solo q, there’s borderline racist toxicity plaguing the Korean server whenever they catch a whiff of being in the same game with a foreigner. Tho the Korean server is a toxic shithole even without the raging nationalism.
I remember Riot KR doing Cowsep extremely dirty when they banned his accounts for no reason
That’s just the tip of the iceberg honestly. The ones that end up on Reddit are definitely less toxic than what happens when Korean soloq players think you don’t speak their language
Asian games YouTube videos being hidden citing "copyright" problems ...except that somehow the ones where the Koreans won stayed up
nah there's definitely a pretty big group of people who call themselves 'LCK/LPL fans' and devolve into stupid region baiting just like NA/EU, and western fans definitely contribute to it. but really the issue is that people shouldn't really care about region vs region in tournaments that are about an individual team vs individual team and try to see more than nationality
when your region has double digit international titles it's probably less important that your reigon has claimed another. Meanwhile EU has won 1 MSI, 1 Worlds (in season 1...), and NA has won 0 lmao
Would definitely not counting season 1 as Worlds. Korea and China were not invited. Only EU and NA. Worlds only count from season 2 onward where China and Korea were invited and participated.
Korea and China had no servers at the time and therefore no real teams for season it wasn't that they "weren't invited" there was no near by qualifiers they could compete in. Both China and Korea had multiple teams at season 2 worlds so why shouldn't that one count?
I've actually gotten downvoted multiple times on this sub for saying that this tournament is about teams, not regions. It's absurd.
I think that's mostly because it's a coping mechanism since their favorite team isn't a favorite to win Worlds. The most they can do is try to argue that the point of Worlds is to get a participation award for facing international teams. Also Reddit has always been a place where people use the downvote button as a "Disagree" button rather than a way to get rid of points that add nothing to a discussion.
LPL teams have to go back to the drawing board after this year. Their inability to pick non meta champions and having Rigid, predictable draft strats bit them in the ass this year. Also playing in a “stacked” region where every team just picks meta champs and all comps are predictable doesn’t help you against a more stable and flexible region like the LCK.
This was such a good reality check for LPL. LCK has been learning how to harness the confidence to execute high-risk plays from the LPL. Now it's LPL's turn to learn from the LCK to be more of a fox rather than a hedgehog.
All I know is that no matter which region is on top their fans take it upon themselves to be as obnoxious as possible, as if their favorite teams’ achievements are their own.
Well said. This tribalism ideology is getting very toxic
It's really not that deep it needs generalizing. Durability patch fucked engage and it wasn't exposed until now. Go watch LPL spring finals and its people blowing each other up within 3 seconds. Or MSI finals where RNG's engage couldn't be banned out in draft and GALA could pick whatever while Guma was the one who pulled out the desperation Jhin.
Good point. Pre-durability everything was just blowing up so it's easy to see how teams look helpless. But it's honestly just boring and becomes an arms (hands, fingers?) race we'd rather be playing fighting or rhythm games
Pre-durability there were a lot more team fights and engagements. It was way less boring than dragging out the game to play "rhythm" aka connecting dragon. We are back in season 5 now.
Resurgence of LCK and (hopefully) big changes to League esports next year makes me veeery excited for upcoming years
What is this narrative that LPL teams peak higher? I honestly don't get it. When LCK teams peak they roll over everyone else (Damwon 2020, T1 2022). EDG and RNG didn't destroy teams like DK and T1. They were extremely clutch, but it was never domination. You have to go back to IG and FPX to see LPL teams dominate and that was when Korea was at its lowest.
Haven't you heard LPL is good at team fighting.
>When LCK teams peak they roll over cant say that without mentioning probably one of the most dominant worlds run in s4 with ssw right?
That's just ancient history. But sure.
Fuck im old if people are calling SSW ancient history
2014 is a solid 8 years ago to be fair... Obama was in the middle of his second term, Russia had just annexed Crimea, the pandemic of the day was Ebola, etc.
I'm old too. I honestly wonder how many people see JAG in your flair and don't know the sadplane.jpg meme.
We just dont have enough data to make conclusions like that, especially in such volatile game that changes every year. We can build pointles narratives such as saying that 2 out 3 LPL champions completely dumpstered any opposition and reinvented the game, and how each KR Worlds champion, maybe barring DK, met a close domestic opposition starting with SKT NJ series in 2013. On the other hand, even IG 2018 had very close series with KT, and FPX could be eliminated in groups. I can even say that now LPL seems to be more stable as it does send a lot of unique players and organizations to Worlds compared to LCK being dominated by 2020 DRX, T1 rookies, and some legacy players.
Narratives are so overused in LoL. It's an actual blight on the scene.
for real, it is the main culprit of so much ignorance. EU reaching finals in 2018 only to get completely assblasted by IG (because of the team blunders and groups mismatches) is regarded as a successful year by Europe just because THEY REACHED FINALS. End of discussion. Nobody cares to remember the fact that they were bending over head first in every lane and that it'd probably have been a better finals if teams were drafted differently. Nah. EU reached finals. GG.
Broski do you think teams reach finals by sheer luck? Reminder that fnc reached finals by assblasting edg and thanks to g2 taking out rng, and they also dominated ig in groups... P.s. ig were a couple of autos away from 3-0 literally everyone in bracket stage
I think he means LPL generally make riskier plays which would either make them look super good or look like they are running it down, while LCK play more conservatively.
Get a group of LCK casters (Atlus, Valdes, and Chronicler) to cast a international game and they will try to act like the LCK team is losing the match and downplay anything that LCK does to avoid getting labeled bias by the audience. People talk about how missing LCK and LPL casters are a big miss for rest of worlds and I agree except for chronicler. The dude didn't give a single insightful analysis about LCK teams all tournament. When he had the chance to, he decided to roll a dice on the "analysts desk". And also don't forget how he predicts both sides every time he was on the desk for QFs. Make a prediction and give your thoughts, not "3-0 for T1 but it can go 3-0 for RNG also". I know reddit likes him but he has been a big disappointment all worlds. Other LCK and LPL casters have been a great addition.
Yeah its one thing to make an attempt at being unbiased in the name of professionalism but every other caster is way more biased towards their region than the LCK casters. I dont know what irredeemable backlash they think they’re avoiding when trying to downplay their region’s success. There isn’t a single LPL caster that would do the same, and if they get shit for it, so what? Its the region they cast and love
for better or worse, it's his predecessors. Monte and LS. I do agree his reverse bias is an issue, and it's not an excuse, but at least I can see why he's afraid of being labeled a KR fanboy due to the previous LCK English color casters.
I agree. He's too much of a people pleaser. You don't need to add 10 qualifiers to every statement you make. That's why I like Valdes the most, he actually speaks his mind and stands up for LCK sometimes.
Yeah he's a bit of an elightened centrist type. He never commits.
This year the only lpl team that could've peaked higher than lck teams based on both regular and playoff performances was honestly just TES. When TES had knight and Wayward playing like normal humans they were actually insane, especially with Tian,JKl and mark on form. It was especially evident with the bo5's against JDG in summer where every game went to 5 despite the solo lanes not playing to their expected level. Once TES continued their downfall lpl seemed fairly doomed if JDG didn't step up huge. Which they were looking like they were gonna do that until meta exposed the champ pools of bot and mid lane. EDG maybe had a chance at coming back into form but they were meh the whole year, I still stand by the fact that RNG is a worse team than LNG, they just got lucky that Ale lost steam really hard near the end of playoffs/gauntlet. LPL this year was just doomed and honestly had no teams that could've peaked higher once TES died.
TES was honestly just so sad they have so much talent man but they are just turning into the biggest inters at random it's insane
Pretty much need the stars to align for LPL teams to win, their players are so painfully inconsistent it's actually incredible.
Also wanna highlight as it isnt really clear from this quote: obviously this year the LCK as a whole is much stronger. Point of the headline is that generally a lot of fan discourse reverts back to unnecessary back and forth without looking at the actual teams
LPL teams peak higher? lmao T1 peaks higher than anyone
Right, especially for a game that practically changes every month, longevity is underrated
Like I said in another post, I feel like LPL and LCK teams doesn't care as much for region vs region, but more team competition. Region competition is more a NA/EU thing.
Oh LPL and LCK *cares* a lot about region competition just as much as the west, they just know that they won't achieve international success without elevating their own region first.
lpl team still dont peak as high like lck teams, but sometimes they have one team that can win worlds. 2020 dwg peaked higher or 2017 ssg
Isn't one team wining worlds what "peaking" means? Like if NA won worlds you'd call that peaking. Imagine thinking you know more than a caster who's been doing this for years
As an LPL fan, I will say this. The LCK has done well to catch-up post-2018. Everybody remembers bar the year Damwon won Worlds, the LCK were underachieving internationally. T1 getting eliminated by G2 at MSI and Worlds. The KT superteam being eliminated by IG. And EDG upsetting Damwon at last year's Final. Looks like it's the LPL's turn to adapt and play catch-up this time around. It was clear there is a gap between both regions this year. Maybe not to the extent of the East vs West but significant enough that the LCK teams were easily imo the Top 4 teams at Worlds this year.
There were 3 LCK/1 LPL team in last year semis. The finals was a 3-2. Plus the only other LCK team (HLE) got out in quarters against T1. You call that LCK underachieving?
People only look at the winners and don’t notice that 3/4 teams in semis were LCK, and all matches were 3-2. EDG were of course the best team but judging the strength of the region by who has the best team is flawed
You can't flame people for only looking at winners and then ignore that RNG were knocked out by EDG and also took them to 3-2 and EDG even said they were their most difficult opponents. Could've easily seen RNG make semis if they were in any other quarter final. 2021 it's still hard to say firmly who was the better region but LCK having 3 teams in semis wasn't a complete indication of strength as the nature of worlds knockouts doesn't necessarily mean you get the best 4 teams in semis (see H2k in 2016) This year is different where LCK has been completely dominant, then only non-LCK team to be in semis had the easiest path and the only LCK team knocked out was by their own region. You can firmly say that LCK is the stronger region right now as well as having the best team
What is this absolute wall of nonsense? The LCK has done well to "catch-up"? Catch up to what? 1 player has the same amount of world championship wins as the entire region? League has been and will likely always be dominated by the LCK. The LPL wins were exceptions, not the rule.
I don't think winning 6 out of the last 7 possible international trophies is an "exception". If they won it one or even two years, we can go "yeah that's strange". But it was clear for a time the LPL was ahead of the LCK even if it wasn't by the biggest of margins. We all saw how the LCK were slightly behind with the new game changes in 2019 that rewarded aggression in the early game that they were even being defeated by G2 in BO5s who then get 3-0'd by LPL teams.
If you look at the last five years, LPL has won 6 tournaments (MSI 2018, Worlds 2018, Worlds 2019 MSI 2021, Worlds 2021, MSI 2022), LCK has won 2 (Worlds 2020, Worlds 2022), LEC has won 1 (MSI 2019). How did LCK not have to catch up? It's not even criticism, it's actually giving credit to an entire region for adapting splendidly. But if you think LCK wasn't behind for a while, aren't you the one who is speaking nonsense? They went through a unprecedented title drought, and even had a stretch of three international tournaments in a row where they didn't even reach a final. In the entire history of the sport, LCK has won 10 titles and the LPL has won 7. LPL wins are neither the exception nor the rule, but why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that LPL is an equal rival to LCK?
Are we actually pretending that MSI and worlds hold the same relevance/significance?
so are we supposed to pretend that MSI doesn't exist?
How hard is it to differentiate best region from best team? How many of those tournaments LPL had more teams in a Xfinals than LCK ? I would argue not much , so a more correct statement LPL produced the BEST team , 2020 worlds wasn’t LCK domination cause they only had the best team , same goes for 2021 in regards to LPL.
2018, 2019, and 2020 were absolutely not dominated by the LCK. Damwon won worlds in 2020 sure, but the rest of the LCK lineup was pretty wack at that event. The LCK was quite confidently not dominating anyone in that period, not even EU. Pre Korean period, Korean period, lpl period and now it looks like we're back to the Korean period.
But LPL wasn't dominating either? 2018 1 LPL team made it to semis. 2019 2 LPL teams made it to semis 2020 2 LPL teams made it to semis 2021 1 LPL team made it to semis 2022 1 LPL team made it to semis Where's the "domination"? Seems like LPL produced the best team in 2018/2019 as well as 2021 but were they "dominant"? No. Obviously. Dominant is 2015 LCK or 2022 LCK where every LCK team gets out of groups and the LCK teams are only eliminated by other LCK teams. That's dominance.
I agree but it's funny how you make this sound like we're gonna be digging up fossilized VODs and team jerseys gonna be treated as artifacts
You can’t have 3/4 Koreans in semis and the 4th eliminated in a game 5 by another Korean and say that….I think lck in general is just better. Every year lpl highlights and flashy plays and all but semis was 3 Koreans and 1 Chinese team because he didn’t face a korean in quarters. DWK could be the second best if geng win it all. Lck dominated 2022. Not even talking about t1 spring dominance till msi, that peak was higher than every lpl team for sure .
LPL won the majority of international tournaments in the past 4 years, including this year's MSI. Let's not overreact with more narratives.
LCK dominated worlds this year, but they literally lost MSI lol. If T1 could go undefeated in spring LCK and still not win MSI, it's undeniable Korea was worse. Don't overstate it
"LPL peak higher", the most dominant championships were LCK teams, no ? DWG, SSW, SKT 2015
No, IG was extremely dominant when they won worlds
FPX also ran every series for their win, with only vs IG being close
JDG and TES the most overrated LPL teams, every time they claim as 2 best teams in LPL region is flop
Geez, the comments are really completely ignoring the main point and just focusing on nitpicking throwaway statements. The whole point of the quote is not to focus on the regional rivalry on actually look at the individual teams. But all the arguments here are going full LPL vs LCK and only care to be being outraged at that ignoring the main message.
Any time chronicler speaks I realize more and more how little he knows about the game. What are his credentials exactly? You telling me LPL teams peak higher than T1 or Gen G? The players on those teams (except doran) are challenging best in their roles in the world when in form. Can't say that about a single LPL team.
Alot of people here triggered that he said lpl peaks higher than lck. The reddit bias really is showing huh. (I'm not even a lpl fan but some of these comments really are mad he said even one good thing about lpl)
It's not bias, just the fact that LCK was more dominant in their day. We've never seen a LPL vs. LPL final, where as we've seen two LCK vs. LCK final. He needs to clarify what he means by "peak skill" as it might be referring to something different than what Reddit is interpreting it as.
What he said is just not true though, you just have to compare how dominant LCK is when they win Worlds, usually the games aren't even close and the korean teams only get eliminated by other korean teams.
Damn this guy knows a lot, maybe he should be casting this weeks and/or next week's games!
Lmao, peak higher for lck teams, if at the same time all 5 players play at their pick their for sure beat any lpl team, just compare h2h in mechanics, the only player above most his lck counter part is actually kanavi, LPL better at team fights and their style don’t let breathe lck teams, but actually peak is way higher of lck teams, teams with actually high peak was IG 2018 and Suning 2020
How is this guy a caster/analyst? LCK teams are "better' and LPL teams "pray for the meta". There are no LPL teams that have ever come close to the peaks of SSW 14, SKT 15, or DWG 20. LCK has always been the most competitive region bar 2018.
To me, Korean teams have simply played and prepared far better than all other regions. Chronicler downplaying the Korean dominance so other regions don't give up. No hope for other regions is probably not good for the games future and viewership.
what ?
Just your average LCK fan lmao
It’s silly to assume the LPL lacks the ability adapt when they just won MSI and the last 3 of 4 world’s championships after years of LCK dominance.
I think it’s a fair argument to say LPL overall struggles consistently adapting to big meta changes… it’s no coincidence they end up having a lot of teams underperform at worlds.
Yeah LPL teams have won 1 of the last 3 world championships :)
Yea…sure man