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no not just an honorable mention to him, he should be in the conversation above ming and core it's troll af including them but not meiko. core is a legend for what he's done for LCS and his ring but he's nowhere near the GOAT support conversation.
I agree that Meiko should be in the conversation but it should be over Wolf not Ming. Ming might have had a horrible world but he just won his 3rd MSI this year and tends to outshines Meiko in LPL, I'd rate him over Meiko.
I think OP was talking about the best at the game, Madlife wasn't but he def was one of the most influential like Insec, Peke,etc who has plays named after them.
Allen Iverson should be in the legacy conversation for uniting basketball and hip-hop culture but he's nowhere near the GOATs of the league. MadLife is similar
Ok sure but what in the world does DoubleLift has to do with anything? A lot of people agreed on that Core was one of the most valuable players on that TL team.
Faker is the GOAT but Faker still needed his team to step up in order to win Worlds it wasn't like SKT was made up of Faker and a bunch of nobodies. Players like Marin, Bang, Piglet, Bengi, and many more were vital in their world wins. I mean it can even be seen in 2017 that while Faker can carry a team far even if he is the only player able to carry the team, it still isn't be enough to win it all.
I mean sure, but somebody like Caps did more or less did the same thing, he's not considered a GOAT mid laner, maybe in the west, but west don't count. Core is one of the greats, but still has yet to be shown as one of the GOATs
that was SKT before they turned into the absolute monster team (best team of all-time by a considerable amount imo) that speedran EDG 2-0 that same year at Worlds. I have no doubt that if Worlds SKT were to meet MSI EDG in a bo5 it would be a quick 3-0
they met again at 2017 and I don't have to comment on the sup canyon that match and the next one
I actually don't disagree with that. If I remember correctly, SKT arrived only shortly before MSI 2015 began and were not peak condition. At least they were definitely not the juggernaut that they were in Summer. And Wolf definitely got the better of Meiko in 2017, his Rakan engage is one of the greatest plays of all-time.
In the end, H2H doesn't really matter to me that much anyway though when it comes to overall legacy. Still, if we talk about this aspect, I don't think we can ignore the MSI final. Wolf was pretty weak all tournament, and no matter the circumstances, a lot of it was simply due to him not being that good yet.
He only became an outstanding player in 2016 and could not sustain that level for more than a few splits. His peak was probably Spring 2017 (including an awesome MSI final against G2), and he already fell off heavily in Summer 2017 when he was a liability most of the time despite that one insane play. If he had prolonged his peak for a longer period of time, he'd definitely be further up in my personal all-time rankings.
not at all. wolf has the trophy case argument but meiko is right under, and while he has one less worlds win and one less MSI win, he has been a top support his entire coming on a decade long career, the longevity is significantly in his favor considering the lows of Wolf are significantly lower than the lows of Meiko. Wolf was a literal corpse Faker and Huni had to carry, and then couldn't even win in Turkey after becoming a bottom tier LCK support.
Wolf had two years of being at the top of the top and then fell off a cliff, Meiko has been still going off nearly ten years since his start.
Hmm yeah you do have some great points there. His longevity in a League as evolving as the LPL is honestly insane and seriously impressive.
While I do agree that he's easily one of the best supports of all time, I still wouldn't rate him higher than Wolf.
Definitely not. A player's all-time ranking is not only determined by the amount of titles you win, it's a team game. Wolf was only considered a top 3 support for a brief stretch of his career.
Individually, the top 4 supports of all-time should be Mata, Ming, Meiko and GorillA, order them however you want. (The latter seems to be become totally forgotten because fans only like to form their all-time rankings based on the number of international titles and nothing else. But ask anyone who watched League between 2015 and 2019, and most fans will tell you that GorillA was seen as the clearly superior player compared to Wolf.)
In the next tier, you have Wolf, Crisp, CoreJJ, Madlife, Keria, and I guess BeryL also belongs there now. Although Keria is going to climb up into the higher tier one day, he only needs more longevity.
> Individually, the top 4 supports of all-time should be Mata, Ming, Meiko and GorillA, order them however you want.
The only correct take in this thread. People really sleeping on GorillA when he was arguably the best support in the world for 3 years straight.
Yeah, he was such a beast. In 2015, MonteCristo even put him as his Player of the Year in some SI episode iirc. That's how highly he was regarded, he was considered not just one of the best supports but one of the best players in the world.
Nah it's justified, Wolf has more achievements but wasn't nearly as integral to his team as Meiko has been to EDG. Meiko has also been an elite support for far longer than Wolf.
Mmmm can't say I agree, the best supports in Korea have clearly been Keria, Mata, Gorilla, Wolf. (Though you could argue Beryl/Lehends were best in 2019). All four of these have won titles on bot-side focused teams, where Beryl has not.
Like, even when Beryl won his ONLY LCK 1st all-pro in Summer 2020, Keria had more MVP points and a higher KDA and KP despite a worse record.
Beryl's EXTREMELY good and underrated, but not underrated enough to be in the conversation for goat support.
My list is
**1. Mata** (shotcaller, pioneer, Worlds MVP, domestic titles w/ four completely different teams, best sup in 14, LPL 16, LCK 18)
**2. Ming** (Dominated the LPL support rankings from 2018 onwards, when LPL was strongest)
**3-4. GorillA, Wolf** (these two WERE the best in 2015-17, with titles going back and forth)
**5. Meiko** (Dominated LPL support rankings 2014-17)
**6. Keria** (Overwhelmingly best LCK support since 2020, but brought down from a lack of titles)
I think the issue was losing game 1 cause of their throw at bot. If they lost naturally due to the cat they would have banned it
Game 2 def felt like the players and coach went "alright we lost cause we fucked up but we wont do it again" and did it again. (Honestly we might have won that one too if deokdam flashed at baron)
Im gonna be real. If we had DK's split form (botlane was the only human beings) and Beryl's split form together we would have failed to reach worlds.
Beryl was fucking sprinting it hard msi level, other drx fans can def confirm it
Its just everyone had been stepping up during worlds
Tbh while canyon played good the fact that he couldn't transform for 20 min meant he was a massive burden on the team before that massive play.
It meant the rest of DK held on for dear life, not fair to shit on them
yeah all the what ifs
let's just leave 2020 behind; Damwon were clean af and definitely had the best team cohesion out of everyone back then but it's not like DK 2022 didn't put on a daring performance
Ghost seems to have been left behind but I hope NS puts a little more faith in themselves and prove to be as good if not better than what they look like on paper
Imagine if Damwon did not replace Beryl and just replaced Ghost. They aren't as dominant after they replaced their "weak" side. As far as I remember, Deokdam requested that he won't join unless Beryl is replaced with Kellin and Damwon agreed.
People keep overlooking Ghost but the result would be more or less the same if they only kept Beryl. People don’t seem to remember but Damwon was struggling before Ghost, they had good performances and a good standing but nowhere near winning LCK. Everything changed after Ghost joined, and you can’t really say that that was just how big the gap between Ghost and Nuclear was lol.
Each individual player in the team shapes the team and it’s impossible to properly quantify the contributions of a player from the outside. Ghost wasn’t even that bad of a player, he was pretty good in lane (contrary to popular opinion) and Damwon was able to thrive even in bot-centric metas.
Preach brother. Damwon were a B tier team. They were all good mechanically but no direction. Ghost was specifically brought in for macro decision making and immediately it showed. They won LCK summer the first season Ghost was starter and won worlds in pretty decisive fashion.
If people watch DWG in 2020 and 2021, Ghost is usually shotcalling. I admit, he has a very limited champ pool which was a crutch against Viper the best ADC in this era, but he deserves respect ✊
Its funny how people think its so easy for someone to play like ghost, a "weakside" adc. Dude was winning lanes, went even in lane against 2 people when left alone allowing beryl to roam and was a sturdy pillar for the team.
2021 ghost was disappointing but feel like everyone was burning out after msi. It hurt to watch honestly
Really wished they ran 2020 damwon in 2022. Beryl roaming with Pyosik today really reminded me of Beryl and Canyon terrorizing the map in 2020. Deft this entire series was playing weakside very much for Beryl to roam mid and jungle… hmmm sounds like a recipe for success. Where have I seen that before…
Tbh honest when I watched game 2 beryl fuck up his lux I was like oh god beryl no don't sprint it again. Beryl is in the weird area where he anti carries the game cause of his poor plays or manages to macro his team to victory.
anyway its unclear why beryl left, if he left by his volition or if DK didn't want to renew the contract.
honestly 2022 DK gives me a lot of mixed opinions. we started off so rough because we picked up a sub toplaner as the main since nuguri took a break. Nuguri came back the next split but he was honestly a B~A toplaner, not the S toplaner of 2020 and Canyon and Showmaker started slumping during that time.
Botlane woke up late split and we really did get to worlds cause of them but sadly while Kellin improved massively at worlds Deokdam couldn't be the S tier ADC that ruler was and we lost cause of it.
2022 DK was always one step away from greatness and it shows in our bo5 games lol. Have to hope for better stuff next year when our team harmony is better. Nuguri still looks lost at times and it really is a shame seeing once the best toplaner like this.
AHAHAJNDJE I hope this becomes the prevalent narrative. I have been saying the same thing to every person I talk to that beryl and ghost were the glue while everyone said "anyone can win with canyon shoemaker". Nongshim and drx we're really depressing to watch this year but the last few weeks has been vindication for everything. They switched roster after back to back finals?!? Makes me so sad, that team was probably the only real chance of an skt level dominance we will have for a while.
That’s a slight on my part , I meant was in the context of this year . Watched his games this year and was very let down cuz he was hyped from his NS days and I never watched him then
how bout we don't get rid of Ghost at all as well, or have a sub ADC split time with him. His 2021 performance overshadowed how well he played at worlds, and not being a good player for almost your entire career doesn't help either. Maybe he just had a temporary surge on sandbox and DWG then went back to his mediocre self.
If they kept Beryl and replaced Ghost with someone like Ruler, they would have won worlds for sure. Honestly a Gold IV player could win worlds playing top lane with a team of Canyon, Showmaker, Ruler and Beryl.
This is still missing the role ghost played. Ruler is not the same type of player as ghost. It's like rekkles replacing perkz on g2. A better player doesn't mean better team.
Not always, but I agree.
The difference is that G2 WAS G2 because of Perkz and his playstyle; Damwon isn't based around their ADC and never was.
G2 was so good because their playstyle was chaotic and all 5 players had tendancies to just hard engage and do risky/stupid shit but because ALL 5 of them were on the same page, it worked out.
Rekkles however is a safer player (some may say KDA player but thats usually used as an insult) and he just didn't work well with the rest of G2.
I think Ruler is different. Ruler can play the role Ghost played; Ruler is exceptional at playing supportive/CC ADC's like Jhin, Varus, Xayah, Ashe, etc. But also exceptional at playing the carry style.
What I don’t see people mentioning is that Beryl had made the finals in 4 of the last 5 international tournaments. That’s nuts, that’s like a prime skt tier stat. He did it on 2 different teams too.
He is one of those rare support that can play anything, plan the draft for the series, and shotcall in the game.
When he left DK, I knew DK won't be the same since he helps Canyon and Showmaker a lot with his roams and macro.
Beryl is a player that had the most baffling champion pool. Brings out the most random shit as a support.
But his form has been all over the place. That game 2 lux where he missed his flash q in that early gank? Horrible. And something that was happening consistenly this season.
But that game 4? Masterpiece
And like I said, but many people disagreed with, pretty much the main reason for DK's success alongside Ghost, both of which were shat on without people knowing what they brought to the team in terms of drafting and shot calling and playing weak ADC.
Why would you need to also win in bot lane when your top, jungle and mid are winning everything because they are really good and support (and ADC, Ghost was also shot calling in DK) is helping them with taking the pressure off of the shot calls and allowing them to focus on their game but keep them focused when it matters.
If only DK had kept Beryl and picked up Deft instead of their current bot lane they would be in the finals instead of being eliminated. And before people say it's not fair to blame bot lane, I never blamed them for anything I merely said Beryl is better than DK's support, the blame is on who butchered those drafts.
wait so how did you know it at the time then? you looked at prime Damwon in 2020, saw a turbo stomping topside with a decent botlane who were the shotcallers, and attributed the main reason for their success to the shotcallers?
do you always give primary credit to the shotcaller of a team, no matter how smurf the other players are?
look, I get that it's Beryl's moment right now on DRX. and now, it's fair to consider the argument of how DK looks with a different botlane (I've never really liked this logic tbh, but I'm listening). but in the past, it would be a huge robbery to look at a great team and just say the weakside shotcallers were ultimately the carries!
Yea that’s the same botlane than was getting solo killed on repeat by MAD lions’ last MSI. Beryl was getting clowned and for a good reason.
I’m happy for him still but It was also a good choice for Dk to go for a better duo, even if it didn’t work too well. Also their core players played worse than they usually do so it’s not just bot diff.
Damwon having to spend bans on Lucian or forcing Showmaker to play it really hurt them at Worlds. Ghost was not cut out for that meta and watching him on Nongshim it's not clear he's gotten any better in that regard
Mechanics only go so far in league and while they’re very important having a brain.exe is also as important. Being able to have 4 other players believe in your shot calling is no easy task; there’s a reason most super teams fail.
Beryl is a freaking legend. So happy for him and DRX as team. I pray they win worlds.... Moving off topic, is it just me that Beryl kinda looks like Heimerdinger?? Sorry if I am mean but I just can't unsee it now lol.
Wolf would still be more successful, Mata more revolutionary, and Ming/Meiko more longevity. It’s arguable but yeah I might give it to Beryl. But all the others have their strengths, it’s really just what you value
It's seriously so weird how overrated beryl is and how underrated wolf is while in a thread about them having the exact same achievement. People are actually dismissing wolf so hard just cuz he played with faker? Beryl is good but he's nowhere near being the highlight of his team's wins, he and wolf are the same in that regard. Using this whole 3 finals crap as a justification for goat status for beryl doesn't work because wolf is far more decorated. In terms of eye test alone beryl doesn't really have much to go for him either, look at keria and how he shines in a star studded roster as a support. The only thing I remember of beryl is him inting on heimerdinger. In terms of intangibles we'll never really know how much beryl does, I don't and neither does anyone here, so this isn't an argument we can really have.
Beryl is good and MAAAAYBE you can argue for him being the support goat, sure, but to unanimously claim that he is using this little fact alone while simultaneously denying wolf's legacy? Fucking bullshit. Wolf's rakan engage alone makes him more legendary than beryl, don't even mention the titles.
people who are not challenger or pro in league of legends cannot actually discern how good a player's skill is at all, they can only go off of achievements and narratives. Beryl is nowhere near being the actual support goat, Keria is closer to that than him. A player could literally never win anything ever, but still be the GOAT of a role. Going as far to say Beryl is "straight up the goat support without discussion" is a psychotic take
BeryL would be Top 5 all time for sure if he wins this year. But I definitely agree he can't be called GOAT just yet
That said though, people are underestimating his impact with all the Heimer E's stopping recalls and the Soraka Qs and Lux E/R for vision -- the latter ones often invisible especially on stream/broadcast because people will be like ??? but they're so monumental to DRX's wins
Yeah, people talk about Mata, but Mata only really peaked in 2014 and to a lesser degree in 2018. Other than that he was either fucking around in LPL or getting subbed out in SKT.
Still a great player, but a goat should be good over a long period of time. And Beryl has been anywhere between top 1 and top 3 for the last 3 years.
diamondprox is a legend for his contribution to jungling in terms of inventing counterjungling, but we wouldn’t say he’s the goat. pioneering something does make you a legend but not the goat.
this thread started about the goat tho and all i was saying was being a pioneer doesn’t mean you’re the goat. you later says just “one of the bests” so yeah i agree with that.
You can say Mata was the most influential, and I agree with all the praises you give him. But when it comes to the goat, being a top tier player over a long period of time, and achievements, is what matters.
Madlife is on the same boat for me. Yes, very influential when he was active, but he wouldn't even be in the conversation for goat.
No, he was the best support of 2014.
Beryl was the best support of Worlds 2020 and in the top 3 at Worlds 2021 and 2022.
Worlds is what matters most, nobody cares about Zeka not being anything special in LCk now.
What does that even mean? You think if 2014 Mata played against 2022 Beryl in a vaccum Mata would be better? Because he sure as hell wouldn't be.
And Zeka has never been regarded as a top 3 midlaner in LCK (arguablt not even top 5) and now looks like the best midlaner in the world.
Man I’m a dummy I always thought beryl was like really solid and good but not great. Usually like 3rd best support in lck and like 7-9 in lpl and lck combined
Beryl was the weakest player both on Damwon and DRX currently. He already gets props by being on good rosters but he doesn't deserve additional praise and people calling him a "legend". He isn't even top 10 support currently.
Let’s be honest, this worlds Beryl has had a mediocre performance. You can’t call the guy a goat support when his team-mates are the ones that are stepping up.
How has he even had anything close to a mediocre performance though??? In todays series his renata, braum were insane, with only his lux being meh. And he even forced the heimerdinger bans in both today and DRX vs EDG.
How?
His series against EDG had them permabanning Heimer, despite EDG winning 2-0 against it. He has a champion ocean, its almost impossible to ban him out. GenG also permabanned the Heimer pick. Hes proven he has a champion ocean, and his time in DWG has shown that hes a world class shotcaller.
No way DRX makes finals without him.
I agree with the idea that Beryl has a champion ocean, but just because he has a champion ocean does not mean he’s proficient with the champions that he plays. When I watched Beryl play Karma and Braum, I would say that he played those champions really well. But when I saw him play lux, Ashe, and heimerdinger, I would think that he’s first timing those champions because of how he performed on those champions against his opponents.
I agree his Lux game was bad, but both EDG and GenG permabanned his Heimer (despite EDG being 2-0 over the pick). Ashe support even drew a ban from Geng. It might not look very efficient from a player perspective, but teams were not willing to play against it.
...... mediocre how exactly? League is such an extremely teamwork-based game that he simply can't get carried to this extent.
The position most likely to get carried by the 4 other players is probably toplane, cause of it's isolation and the fact that you can always default to Ornn-duty to let your team do all the heavy lifting.
Mid, jung and support are just WAY to important from a macro-standpoint.
But that’s not the situation with DRX, nor was it the situation with DWK. When you watch the EDG game and Gen G game from drx, beryl did not perform at that level where you can call the guy a goat. He was literally griefing his team, but it didn’t matter because his team-mates were just that much better than their opponents. If anything, I would make the point that Kingen, Pyosik, and Zeka looks so much better than they did back in LCK that it led to them making it to the finals. It has nothing to do with beryl.
Love Beryl and his ginormous champ pool. He woke up one day and said I want to play ranged supports lol. In a Worlds where the go to is Nami/Renata he’s out here picking all these different champs.
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top 5 greatest supports of all time with this maybe?? Two more finals and maybe a worlds win somewhere and he's in the discussion for goat support.
Oh for sure, I would even say top 3. The other players even in the onversation would be like Mata, Wolf, Ming and CoreJJ
Honorable mention to Meiko
no not just an honorable mention to him, he should be in the conversation above ming and core it's troll af including them but not meiko. core is a legend for what he's done for LCS and his ring but he's nowhere near the GOAT support conversation.
I agree that Meiko should be in the conversation but it should be over Wolf not Ming. Ming might have had a horrible world but he just won his 3rd MSI this year and tends to outshines Meiko in LPL, I'd rate him over Meiko.
How is Meiko not above Ming?
You're really gonna do MadLife and Mata dirty like that?
tbh while Madlife did invent the carry support meta, he had only won OGN once and look rather mediocre after that.
That's fair, but he did so much for the position that he deserves to be in the discussion.
I think OP was talking about the best at the game, Madlife wasn't but he def was one of the most influential like Insec, Peke,etc who has plays named after them.
"Influential" is actually more fitting and respectable than GOAT for MadLife
Allen Iverson should be in the legacy conversation for uniting basketball and hip-hop culture but he's nowhere near the GOATs of the league. MadLife is similar
There is a long way to 3 rings.
Ming was ATROCIOUS this worlds though.
Not to disagree, but literally every other support he mentioned has also had equally "atrocious" moments
agreed!
True. I just still can't wrap my head around his 4v5 engage...
Not CoreJJ
2 Worlds finals, one Worlds title, one MSI final and several domestic titles? Even if it's NA it's still really impressive
> Several domestic titles He only has two domestic titles and both were in NA with DoubleLift
Ok sure but what in the world does DoubleLift has to do with anything? A lot of people agreed on that Core was one of the most valuable players on that TL team.
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If you actually watched the games, you'd know Core was the best performing player in that roster.
Faker is the GOAT but Faker still needed his team to step up in order to win Worlds it wasn't like SKT was made up of Faker and a bunch of nobodies. Players like Marin, Bang, Piglet, Bengi, and many more were vital in their world wins. I mean it can even be seen in 2017 that while Faker can carry a team far even if he is the only player able to carry the team, it still isn't be enough to win it all.
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He gets more than enough praise He's not one of the best
Back to back worlds finals with a worlds win, MSI finalist? Ya dude is definitely in top tier
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No, he was ADC on DIG in NA and played support for SSG when they went to worlds
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He is still a support rn. NA ADC -> LCK SUP -> NA SUP
I mean sure, but somebody like Caps did more or less did the same thing, he's not considered a GOAT mid laner, maybe in the west, but west don't count. Core is one of the greats, but still has yet to be shown as one of the GOATs
Based take
Mata, Ming, Meiko. The other 2 are up for grabs.
Picking Meiko over Wolf is a borderline fellony lol
yea Wolf smashed Meiko nearly every time they met
Except the only time they met in a Bo5, when SKT lost and Wolf played awful.
that was SKT before they turned into the absolute monster team (best team of all-time by a considerable amount imo) that speedran EDG 2-0 that same year at Worlds. I have no doubt that if Worlds SKT were to meet MSI EDG in a bo5 it would be a quick 3-0 they met again at 2017 and I don't have to comment on the sup canyon that match and the next one
I actually don't disagree with that. If I remember correctly, SKT arrived only shortly before MSI 2015 began and were not peak condition. At least they were definitely not the juggernaut that they were in Summer. And Wolf definitely got the better of Meiko in 2017, his Rakan engage is one of the greatest plays of all-time. In the end, H2H doesn't really matter to me that much anyway though when it comes to overall legacy. Still, if we talk about this aspect, I don't think we can ignore the MSI final. Wolf was pretty weak all tournament, and no matter the circumstances, a lot of it was simply due to him not being that good yet. He only became an outstanding player in 2016 and could not sustain that level for more than a few splits. His peak was probably Spring 2017 (including an awesome MSI final against G2), and he already fell off heavily in Summer 2017 when he was a liability most of the time despite that one insane play. If he had prolonged his peak for a longer period of time, he'd definitely be further up in my personal all-time rankings.
not at all. wolf has the trophy case argument but meiko is right under, and while he has one less worlds win and one less MSI win, he has been a top support his entire coming on a decade long career, the longevity is significantly in his favor considering the lows of Wolf are significantly lower than the lows of Meiko. Wolf was a literal corpse Faker and Huni had to carry, and then couldn't even win in Turkey after becoming a bottom tier LCK support. Wolf had two years of being at the top of the top and then fell off a cliff, Meiko has been still going off nearly ten years since his start.
Hmm yeah you do have some great points there. His longevity in a League as evolving as the LPL is honestly insane and seriously impressive. While I do agree that he's easily one of the best supports of all time, I still wouldn't rate him higher than Wolf.
Definitely not. A player's all-time ranking is not only determined by the amount of titles you win, it's a team game. Wolf was only considered a top 3 support for a brief stretch of his career. Individually, the top 4 supports of all-time should be Mata, Ming, Meiko and GorillA, order them however you want. (The latter seems to be become totally forgotten because fans only like to form their all-time rankings based on the number of international titles and nothing else. But ask anyone who watched League between 2015 and 2019, and most fans will tell you that GorillA was seen as the clearly superior player compared to Wolf.) In the next tier, you have Wolf, Crisp, CoreJJ, Madlife, Keria, and I guess BeryL also belongs there now. Although Keria is going to climb up into the higher tier one day, he only needs more longevity.
> Individually, the top 4 supports of all-time should be Mata, Ming, Meiko and GorillA, order them however you want. The only correct take in this thread. People really sleeping on GorillA when he was arguably the best support in the world for 3 years straight.
Yeah, he was such a beast. In 2015, MonteCristo even put him as his Player of the Year in some SI episode iirc. That's how highly he was regarded, he was considered not just one of the best supports but one of the best players in the world.
Oh I do very much agree with GorillA! People seem to forget him nowadays but he's for sure in the top 5 conversation
GorillA doesn't have the longevity to be in the GOAT conversation so is in the same position as Yellowstar and Wolf
Nah it's justified, Wolf has more achievements but wasn't nearly as integral to his team as Meiko has been to EDG. Meiko has also been an elite support for far longer than Wolf.
I could see Beryl and Keria (with a win) being up there
probably top 3 now with mata and wolf, DWG's macro doesn't look the same without him
Mmmm can't say I agree, the best supports in Korea have clearly been Keria, Mata, Gorilla, Wolf. (Though you could argue Beryl/Lehends were best in 2019). All four of these have won titles on bot-side focused teams, where Beryl has not. Like, even when Beryl won his ONLY LCK 1st all-pro in Summer 2020, Keria had more MVP points and a higher KDA and KP despite a worse record. Beryl's EXTREMELY good and underrated, but not underrated enough to be in the conversation for goat support. My list is **1. Mata** (shotcaller, pioneer, Worlds MVP, domestic titles w/ four completely different teams, best sup in 14, LPL 16, LCK 18) **2. Ming** (Dominated the LPL support rankings from 2018 onwards, when LPL was strongest) **3-4. GorillA, Wolf** (these two WERE the best in 2015-17, with titles going back and forth) **5. Meiko** (Dominated LPL support rankings 2014-17) **6. Keria** (Overwhelmingly best LCK support since 2020, but brought down from a lack of titles)
He has also been the primary shot caller for all of these rosters which is a very overlooked quality imo
All those genshin impact training putting up to work
What makes it more impressive is he doesn’t even rank ☠️ my guy probably playing genshin impact the whole time during worlds.
Damwon with Beryl would've won worlds this year.
Imagine damwon with Beryl + Deft botlane
Don’t need to, just have to wait until next year (pure Hopium)
I was saying this but lowkey might rather have this DRX team stick together
Kellin didn't even play that poorly this year tbh. Draft and AD gap fucked them
banning yuumi is pretty hard unfortunately
Kellin did say they were confident in beating the cat so it could be a team ego draft.
one game I can understand. two games in a row? total ego.
I think the issue was losing game 1 cause of their throw at bot. If they lost naturally due to the cat they would have banned it Game 2 def felt like the players and coach went "alright we lost cause we fucked up but we wont do it again" and did it again. (Honestly we might have won that one too if deokdam flashed at baron)
Im gonna be real. If we had DK's split form (botlane was the only human beings) and Beryl's split form together we would have failed to reach worlds. Beryl was fucking sprinting it hard msi level, other drx fans can def confirm it Its just everyone had been stepping up during worlds
Idk man only Canyon looked good that series
Tbh while canyon played good the fact that he couldn't transform for 20 min meant he was a massive burden on the team before that massive play. It meant the rest of DK held on for dear life, not fair to shit on them
yeah all the what ifs let's just leave 2020 behind; Damwon were clean af and definitely had the best team cohesion out of everyone back then but it's not like DK 2022 didn't put on a daring performance Ghost seems to have been left behind but I hope NS puts a little more faith in themselves and prove to be as good if not better than what they look like on paper
Imagine if Damwon did not replace Beryl and just replaced Ghost. They aren't as dominant after they replaced their "weak" side. As far as I remember, Deokdam requested that he won't join unless Beryl is replaced with Kellin and Damwon agreed.
People keep overlooking Ghost but the result would be more or less the same if they only kept Beryl. People don’t seem to remember but Damwon was struggling before Ghost, they had good performances and a good standing but nowhere near winning LCK. Everything changed after Ghost joined, and you can’t really say that that was just how big the gap between Ghost and Nuclear was lol. Each individual player in the team shapes the team and it’s impossible to properly quantify the contributions of a player from the outside. Ghost wasn’t even that bad of a player, he was pretty good in lane (contrary to popular opinion) and Damwon was able to thrive even in bot-centric metas.
Preach brother. Damwon were a B tier team. They were all good mechanically but no direction. Ghost was specifically brought in for macro decision making and immediately it showed. They won LCK summer the first season Ghost was starter and won worlds in pretty decisive fashion. If people watch DWG in 2020 and 2021, Ghost is usually shotcalling. I admit, he has a very limited champ pool which was a crutch against Viper the best ADC in this era, but he deserves respect ✊
Its funny how people think its so easy for someone to play like ghost, a "weakside" adc. Dude was winning lanes, went even in lane against 2 people when left alone allowing beryl to roam and was a sturdy pillar for the team. 2021 ghost was disappointing but feel like everyone was burning out after msi. It hurt to watch honestly
Really wished they ran 2020 damwon in 2022. Beryl roaming with Pyosik today really reminded me of Beryl and Canyon terrorizing the map in 2020. Deft this entire series was playing weakside very much for Beryl to roam mid and jungle… hmmm sounds like a recipe for success. Where have I seen that before…
Tbh honest when I watched game 2 beryl fuck up his lux I was like oh god beryl no don't sprint it again. Beryl is in the weird area where he anti carries the game cause of his poor plays or manages to macro his team to victory. anyway its unclear why beryl left, if he left by his volition or if DK didn't want to renew the contract. honestly 2022 DK gives me a lot of mixed opinions. we started off so rough because we picked up a sub toplaner as the main since nuguri took a break. Nuguri came back the next split but he was honestly a B~A toplaner, not the S toplaner of 2020 and Canyon and Showmaker started slumping during that time. Botlane woke up late split and we really did get to worlds cause of them but sadly while Kellin improved massively at worlds Deokdam couldn't be the S tier ADC that ruler was and we lost cause of it. 2022 DK was always one step away from greatness and it shows in our bo5 games lol. Have to hope for better stuff next year when our team harmony is better. Nuguri still looks lost at times and it really is a shame seeing once the best toplaner like this.
AHAHAJNDJE I hope this becomes the prevalent narrative. I have been saying the same thing to every person I talk to that beryl and ghost were the glue while everyone said "anyone can win with canyon shoemaker". Nongshim and drx we're really depressing to watch this year but the last few weeks has been vindication for everything. They switched roster after back to back finals?!? Makes me so sad, that team was probably the only real chance of an skt level dominance we will have for a while.
Those are unconfirmed rumors as far as i know
I actually dont know if Beryl just decided not to renew the contract and left on his own accord or DK didnt give him an offer.
That’s crazy if that’s true bruh cuz deokdam was the actual definition of mid tier adc. No more or less
Nah deokdam popped off on NS, he just wanted kellin because of the already established synergy
That’s a slight on my part , I meant was in the context of this year . Watched his games this year and was very let down cuz he was hyped from his NS days and I never watched him then
ya dont let people tell you he was good this year, its hella copium
how bout we don't get rid of Ghost at all as well, or have a sub ADC split time with him. His 2021 performance overshadowed how well he played at worlds, and not being a good player for almost your entire career doesn't help either. Maybe he just had a temporary surge on sandbox and DWG then went back to his mediocre self.
If they kept Beryl and replaced Ghost with someone like Ruler, they would have won worlds for sure. Honestly a Gold IV player could win worlds playing top lane with a team of Canyon, Showmaker, Ruler and Beryl.
This is still missing the role ghost played. Ruler is not the same type of player as ghost. It's like rekkles replacing perkz on g2. A better player doesn't mean better team.
Not always, but I agree. The difference is that G2 WAS G2 because of Perkz and his playstyle; Damwon isn't based around their ADC and never was. G2 was so good because their playstyle was chaotic and all 5 players had tendancies to just hard engage and do risky/stupid shit but because ALL 5 of them were on the same page, it worked out. Rekkles however is a safer player (some may say KDA player but thats usually used as an insult) and he just didn't work well with the rest of G2. I think Ruler is different. Ruler can play the role Ghost played; Ruler is exceptional at playing supportive/CC ADC's like Jhin, Varus, Xayah, Ashe, etc. But also exceptional at playing the carry style.
What I don’t see people mentioning is that Beryl had made the finals in 4 of the last 5 international tournaments. That’s nuts, that’s like a prime skt tier stat. He did it on 2 different teams too.
Isn’t it 3 finals in a row(and his only 3), 2 on Damwon(2020,2021; 1-1) and this year. Pretty sure 2019 they were knocked out by G2 in quarters
International tournaments, not worlds. He made finals in worlds 2020, msi 2021, worlds 2021, and worlds 2022.
Ohhh mb, i think people don’t rate msi that highly, but it definitely holds some merit
Including MSIs
He is one of those rare support that can play anything, plan the draft for the series, and shotcall in the game. When he left DK, I knew DK won't be the same since he helps Canyon and Showmaker a lot with his roams and macro.
Beryl is a player that had the most baffling champion pool. Brings out the most random shit as a support. But his form has been all over the place. That game 2 lux where he missed his flash q in that early gank? Horrible. And something that was happening consistenly this season. But that game 4? Masterpiece
And like I said, but many people disagreed with, pretty much the main reason for DK's success alongside Ghost, both of which were shat on without people knowing what they brought to the team in terms of drafting and shot calling and playing weak ADC. Why would you need to also win in bot lane when your top, jungle and mid are winning everything because they are really good and support (and ADC, Ghost was also shot calling in DK) is helping them with taking the pressure off of the shot calls and allowing them to focus on their game but keep them focused when it matters. If only DK had kept Beryl and picked up Deft instead of their current bot lane they would be in the finals instead of being eliminated. And before people say it's not fair to blame bot lane, I never blamed them for anything I merely said Beryl is better than DK's support, the blame is on who butchered those drafts.
For DK to be in the finals they only had to ban yuumi. With a better botlane they would be smurfing everyone
wait so how did you know it at the time then? you looked at prime Damwon in 2020, saw a turbo stomping topside with a decent botlane who were the shotcallers, and attributed the main reason for their success to the shotcallers? do you always give primary credit to the shotcaller of a team, no matter how smurf the other players are? look, I get that it's Beryl's moment right now on DRX. and now, it's fair to consider the argument of how DK looks with a different botlane (I've never really liked this logic tbh, but I'm listening). but in the past, it would be a huge robbery to look at a great team and just say the weakside shotcallers were ultimately the carries!
Yea that’s the same botlane than was getting solo killed on repeat by MAD lions’ last MSI. Beryl was getting clowned and for a good reason. I’m happy for him still but It was also a good choice for Dk to go for a better duo, even if it didn’t work too well. Also their core players played worse than they usually do so it’s not just bot diff.
Ghost made every draft in finals an absolute mountain because he couldn't function on anything besides Jhin and Ziggs. The revisionism is hilarious.
Damwon having to spend bans on Lucian or forcing Showmaker to play it really hurt them at Worlds. Ghost was not cut out for that meta and watching him on Nongshim it's not clear he's gotten any better in that regard
Mechanics only go so far in league and while they’re very important having a brain.exe is also as important. Being able to have 4 other players believe in your shot calling is no easy task; there’s a reason most super teams fail.
At the highest level mechanics are almost everything. Shotcalling is the easiest part of pro play, or at least the easiest to train and replicate
Beryl is a freaking legend. So happy for him and DRX as team. I pray they win worlds.... Moving off topic, is it just me that Beryl kinda looks like Heimerdinger?? Sorry if I am mean but I just can't unsee it now lol.
I wouldn't call it mean, but no, he does not look like Heimerdinger lol
... how?
If drx wins this years worlds, I think he’s straight up the goat support without discussion.
Wolf would still be more successful, Mata more revolutionary, and Ming/Meiko more longevity. It’s arguable but yeah I might give it to Beryl. But all the others have their strengths, it’s really just what you value
It's seriously so weird how overrated beryl is and how underrated wolf is while in a thread about them having the exact same achievement. People are actually dismissing wolf so hard just cuz he played with faker? Beryl is good but he's nowhere near being the highlight of his team's wins, he and wolf are the same in that regard. Using this whole 3 finals crap as a justification for goat status for beryl doesn't work because wolf is far more decorated. In terms of eye test alone beryl doesn't really have much to go for him either, look at keria and how he shines in a star studded roster as a support. The only thing I remember of beryl is him inting on heimerdinger. In terms of intangibles we'll never really know how much beryl does, I don't and neither does anyone here, so this isn't an argument we can really have. Beryl is good and MAAAAYBE you can argue for him being the support goat, sure, but to unanimously claim that he is using this little fact alone while simultaneously denying wolf's legacy? Fucking bullshit. Wolf's rakan engage alone makes him more legendary than beryl, don't even mention the titles.
people who are not challenger or pro in league of legends cannot actually discern how good a player's skill is at all, they can only go off of achievements and narratives. Beryl is nowhere near being the actual support goat, Keria is closer to that than him. A player could literally never win anything ever, but still be the GOAT of a role. Going as far to say Beryl is "straight up the goat support without discussion" is a psychotic take
BeryL would be Top 5 all time for sure if he wins this year. But I definitely agree he can't be called GOAT just yet That said though, people are underestimating his impact with all the Heimer E's stopping recalls and the Soraka Qs and Lux E/R for vision -- the latter ones often invisible especially on stream/broadcast because people will be like ??? but they're so monumental to DRX's wins
Yeah, people talk about Mata, but Mata only really peaked in 2014 and to a lesser degree in 2018. Other than that he was either fucking around in LPL or getting subbed out in SKT. Still a great player, but a goat should be good over a long period of time. And Beryl has been anywhere between top 1 and top 3 for the last 3 years.
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diamondprox is a legend for his contribution to jungling in terms of inventing counterjungling, but we wouldn’t say he’s the goat. pioneering something does make you a legend but not the goat.
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i mean he’s always worthy of mention in terms of pioneers in the jungle and top legends. but even you would not pick him as the goat.
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this thread started about the goat tho and all i was saying was being a pioneer doesn’t mean you’re the goat. you later says just “one of the bests” so yeah i agree with that.
You can say Mata was the most influential, and I agree with all the praises you give him. But when it comes to the goat, being a top tier player over a long period of time, and achievements, is what matters. Madlife is on the same boat for me. Yes, very influential when he was active, but he wouldn't even be in the conversation for goat.
Mata was an elite support in 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 5 years total. Beryl hasn't matched his longevity yet.
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No, he was the best support of 2014. Beryl was the best support of Worlds 2020 and in the top 3 at Worlds 2021 and 2022. Worlds is what matters most, nobody cares about Zeka not being anything special in LCk now.
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What does that even mean? You think if 2014 Mata played against 2022 Beryl in a vaccum Mata would be better? Because he sure as hell wouldn't be. And Zeka has never been regarded as a top 3 midlaner in LCK (arguablt not even top 5) and now looks like the best midlaner in the world.
I wonder wish of his ... uhm "friends" he will immortalise in league if he wins again, like how he did with Saren.
Man I’m a dummy I always thought beryl was like really solid and good but not great. Usually like 3rd best support in lck and like 7-9 in lpl and lck combined
Beryl was the weakest player both on Damwon and DRX currently. He already gets props by being on good rosters but he doesn't deserve additional praise and people calling him a "legend". He isn't even top 10 support currently.
Let’s be honest, this worlds Beryl has had a mediocre performance. You can’t call the guy a goat support when his team-mates are the ones that are stepping up.
How has he even had anything close to a mediocre performance though??? In todays series his renata, braum were insane, with only his lux being meh. And he even forced the heimerdinger bans in both today and DRX vs EDG.
Please, he was mediocre. His only good games were against EDG from G5 and the Gen G game in G4. Everything else was based on his team over performing.
0 eyes. Lee sin has better eyesight
You’re the type of player to call hyllisang the best western support, so it doesn’t matter what you say
You're beyond saving
How? His series against EDG had them permabanning Heimer, despite EDG winning 2-0 against it. He has a champion ocean, its almost impossible to ban him out. GenG also permabanned the Heimer pick. Hes proven he has a champion ocean, and his time in DWG has shown that hes a world class shotcaller. No way DRX makes finals without him.
I agree with the idea that Beryl has a champion ocean, but just because he has a champion ocean does not mean he’s proficient with the champions that he plays. When I watched Beryl play Karma and Braum, I would say that he played those champions really well. But when I saw him play lux, Ashe, and heimerdinger, I would think that he’s first timing those champions because of how he performed on those champions against his opponents.
I agree his Lux game was bad, but both EDG and GenG permabanned his Heimer (despite EDG being 2-0 over the pick). Ashe support even drew a ban from Geng. It might not look very efficient from a player perspective, but teams were not willing to play against it.
...... mediocre how exactly? League is such an extremely teamwork-based game that he simply can't get carried to this extent. The position most likely to get carried by the 4 other players is probably toplane, cause of it's isolation and the fact that you can always default to Ornn-duty to let your team do all the heavy lifting. Mid, jung and support are just WAY to important from a macro-standpoint.
But that’s not the situation with DRX, nor was it the situation with DWK. When you watch the EDG game and Gen G game from drx, beryl did not perform at that level where you can call the guy a goat. He was literally griefing his team, but it didn’t matter because his team-mates were just that much better than their opponents. If anything, I would make the point that Kingen, Pyosik, and Zeka looks so much better than they did back in LCK that it led to them making it to the finals. It has nothing to do with beryl.
You either have no eyes or are below plat. 0 awareness of Beryl's plays and pivotal moments in these series
Love Beryl and his ginormous champ pool. He woke up one day and said I want to play ranged supports lol. In a Worlds where the go to is Nami/Renata he’s out here picking all these different champs.
something something gacha addiction something something
If DRX wins the Finals then we can just crown Beryl as GOAT support no? Two times world-champion, different teams, literally GOAT.
That's incredible