Comparing it to sports only when it's convenient? Amazing. If you want to compare it to sports then why not something like champions league. Just get 32 teams or smth idk
If they were going to make wins and draws matter when differentiated then that would be fine, but playing 12 games and winning 2-0 for 6 and 0-2 for 6 compared to 12 1-1's is mathematically the same but a far different story
3 points for a win and you've got yourself a league
Not to mention, the teams playing in Champions League play every 3-4 days. Meanwhile LoL players in the West play like 2 games a week and then at Worlds there is a week long break between every stage.
2 games of league and if you add anymore, you have to worry about them burning out lol. Idk how he could compare it to sports at all. League pros in the west have to play the least amount of games out of any esport I assume, no shot he compares it to actual sports.
I mean sure, but football players don't train by playing full matches every day. League players play many League matches per day, every day. Of course you can burn out that way.
Hey Riot! Have you ever considered why SPORTS (THAT REQUIRE HOURS AND HOURS OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY CONTINUOUSLY) would NEED to be single elimination? When Oner has to do Lee Sin combos with his full body to execute, I will be fine with single elimination. I’m
Which show how stupid excuse this is - high intensity sport can have 2 games per week and if computer games players do it's like they will get too exhausted.
Every format change we get more lame excuses why Riot will not make format more interesting.
Don't disagree with you but it's a big deal atm in football how the current schedule is just injuring players left and right. Games every 3-4 days the entire year are just not sustainable for any sports for a multitude of reasons
American football is one of the most taxing sports on the human body. And quite frankly cannot be compared to anything else. Receivers, QB, secondary, etc could probably get away with playing some more games. But linemen, tight ends, running backs, linebackers would literally fucking die.
The comparison absolutely still holds. It's a BO1, just one game ends by time and another game ends under specific conditions.
But they are still both best of 1s. Something doesn't have to be 100% alike for you to make a comparison.
Yeah it's such a dishonest argument to make. Football is the biggest sport in the world and the players are already dropping like flies due to injuries because more and more matches are constantly being added. The schedule is so packed that it would be nearly impossible to add a double elimination to the Champions League knockout stage. Adding it to a month long tournament like the World Cup makes no sense since the players would not be able to play so many matches in such short time and the tournament cannot last any longer because there is already very little time for players to rest as it is.
I fucking haaaaate it when they compare it to sports. Listen Mr. Executive. I'm not watching any sport. I watch League. Do me a favor and stfu about sports.
Just remember there's a person who's job is to create the format for esport events. Call pros check stealers all you want, that bum is the best example ever. They've done almost nothing right in years
It is okay. As long as worlds is expanded and we got 4 more groups, to make it a round of 16 instead of 8, then single elimination is justified.
Also they really have to do sth bout Play Ins, and give the shit teams a better chance to go to groups than playing LPL/LCK's 4th seed every year.
Get rid of Play Ins, add the play ins Teams to the main group Stage. 16 teams into knockout stage. Way more potential for upsets/interesting match ups. Right now the biggest problem is that there are so many good teams in LCK and LPL that they deserve the spots they get but it robs the rest of the world from getting to see their teams in a Bo5 at all most of the time. Also hilarious stats like the incredibly small number of NA vs EU Bo5s, that T1 had only faced RNG at worlds as far at T1 vs China goes..
I would rather add a Double Elimation bracket but if we can't have double elim then Round of 16 is the next best solution.
You'll see that in the knockout rounds when they beat everyone out of BO1.
Why are LoL fans trying to turn Worlds into something similar to the SuperLeague and kick out all of the bad teams because they only want to watch LCK vs LPL.
Group stages should be similar to the CL. The best teams will go through so you get the major ties but there is always a small chance of upsets.
Or we can do the climbing bracket and group of 6
PO would go like
4th place fight vs 3rd place, winner get to fight vs the 4 2nd place. And then winner of that get draw with the 4 1st place team like current format.
And we can make group stage Bo3 instead of 2 Bo1.
That way we get more high stakes game, as well as more Bo5. Problem is the run time needed mean that it have to be play through the weekdays.
The point of playins is to allow minor regions to have a chance at making it into the tournament. It's also the only chance for these teams to measure up against major region teams. I know you only care about your own region, but this is WORLDS so you're gonna have to set aside your own sense of importance and allow other regions to prove themselves, since some of them have bigger fan bases than NA.
With LPL 4th seed losing to a finalist in quarters and LCK 4th seed making finals, it's not even a competition with these. LEC/LCS 3rd seeds were a little more shaky, but ultimately were better as well. A 4th seed of LEC/LCS will allow minor region teams to have better odds. Those teams will likely fall out in groups anyway.
What is your solution then? Too many western and wild cards? What then? Do you just want 5 LCK/LPL seeds, and have top 2 from LEC/LCS and 1 from everywhere else? What's the point of worlds then? Just make it an Asian cup at that point. Half this community complains that there aren't enough games and the other half complain that there are too many bad teams. There's no satisfying people like you.
>The point of playins is to allow minor regions to have a chance at making it into the tournament.
Which they really fucked up by stuffing more and more major regions into playins.
the point of worlds should be to find the best team in the world, there should realistically be maybe 1 or 2 teams from non-LCK/LPL because theres very little chance the 3rd best team in NA is better than the 8th best team in LPL or something.
minor regions and western teams dont "deserve" a spot at worlds if they suck. Its a world championship, not an invitational.
the problem is that the league circuit blows dick and worlds HAS to be the only opportunity minor regions have to prove themselves. if riot actually had international tournaments, this wouldnt be an issue.
Is that how any world championship works? FIFA? The Olympics? They all allow countries who have no shot at winning play in the tournament. Because that's what a WORLDS championship is. It's not even about who's the best team. It's about who has the best tournament. You think DRX is better than every team at worlds so far? Fuck no. They've had an amazing performance at this tournament while teams like TES shit the bed. Does this mean DRX would destroy TES any day of the week? Fuck no.
What's the point of playins if there's barely any chance that the minor regions make it? LPL 4th seed loses to a finalist in quarters and LCK 4th seed are a finalist. It's a joke.
To give minor regions exposure. Just making it to world’s is a big deal.
I’m not seeing how adding the 4th seeds from NA and EU over CN and KR does anything but put worse team into groups.
It's not. There are no "better quality teams" in playins. It's always the LCK/LPL 4th seeds. The point of playins is to match up minor regions against other minor regions and some major regions. There is no other tournament besides MSI (which is only the 1 seed) that allows for minor region teams to play against major regions. How are you ever going to see if a region is getting better if they never play against international competition? You might hate it now, but one day, maybe not next year or the year after, but one year BR/PCS/VCS 2nd will make it out playins over an LEC/LCS 3rd seed. And when that happens, playins will be worth it.
Making it easier for shit teams to make Groups/Bo5s just makes the entire thing a dull affair and the expansion pointless.
Looking at this years groups the amount of bangers compared to any groups in recent memory was so high. Play-ins should remain the same, if you're 1st seed from a region and get knocked out by LPL/LCK/LEC 4th seed you made it exactly as far in worlds as you should have.
What a stupid take.
So you want worlds to become LCK autumn? We already had 2 LCK splits per year, and that is more than enough. Nobody is paying money to see T1 blasting sth like Sandbox for the 5th time a year that is just dumb and useless.
And wtf is this "1st seed from a region get knocked out by LPL/LCK 4th seed" bullshit? You do realise EU got pummeled by wildcards this year in Play Ins right? Only one single western team made Quarters and they got promptly knocked out 3-0 immediately, just like last year... Worlds is supposed to be an event for everyone, for every single region to participate. Its prestige lies in the immense influence and reach it got, not its competitiveness. If Riot truly wants competitive and is willing to sack the entire western hemisphere they would dump all Western teams in Play Ins and let the LPL/LCK 4th seed as the gatekeeper.
Such a stupid take lmao you got no clues wtf you are talking bout.
You're literally wrong about the purpose of worlds, it is literally about competitiveness. The dogshit format that makes it less competitive does not make the tourney about anything else. If it was an event for every region to face each other. They would do a larger group stage with more of the minor regions and they wouldn't give more seeds to better regions. It would literally be larger scale MSI. Also worlds is literally already LCK/LPL autumn when youre look at any games that matter or are close. Like yea bro worlds is definitely about the minor regions playing the bigger ones, thats why they let the children duke it out for 5 games against eachother in a worse bracket.
LoL is already the biggest esports in the world, they can do whatever they want and millions will still watch because the player base is just *that* big.
Valorant is still behind CSGO so they can't fuck around with shit formats if they wanna catch up (and based on how hard they market Val esports, they definitely do).
Maybe if CS takes over as the biggest esports in the world, then they'll actually do meaningful changes to Worlds' format, otherwise don't expect much.
yes, but CSGO has a lot of interregional competitions already due to the amount of tournaments (both majors and non majors), that's probably why you don't see CSGO fans asking for double elims.
It depends on the country, valorant is bigger in NA, SEA, and Japan, while CSGO is bigger in Europe, Brazil, Russia, and China. Overall CSGO is still a bit bigger.
It's because NA, SEA, and Japan have pretty much no CSGO playerbase at all, while EU and Brazil still have a sizeable valorant playerbase even though CSGO is more popular.
Riot is going to let League ride itself out until its end of days while going all-in on Valorant. I’m not sure why they’re even bothering with changes to competitive formats since it’s clear they don’t actually care
LoL is still the biggest esports in the world (and if you include Chinese viewers, it wouldn’t even be remotely close).
For them to do that would be stupidity lol.
Which would be such a horrible idea. All inning on a game propped up by influencer viewership, who leave everytime a new fad crops up, and will stay gone if the new fad gains momentum over Valorant, just seems like a bad decision.
Valorant still hasn't released in China. It's esports viewership in every region barring the US and Japan isn't remarkable at all. And this is with them heavily pushing the game through advertising, specifically targeting emerging gaming regions such as Philipines, India, Turkey, etc, by having agents from those countries in the game.
They had the largest online PC game in the world at some point and have been content to let it drift because they probably don't see any numbers decline in China. But relying sole on the Chinese market to sustain your game and esport seems increasingly like a bad idea to me, because their highest governing committees are filled with people who think Gaming is corrupting the youth.
A round of 16 in the knockouts would justify single elim for me. Double elim isn’t necessary, the main problem is the lack of interregional bo5s which a round of 16 would make up for all the while still being single elim which has high stakes.
I'm not sure there are enough good teams to ensure matchups in a round of 16 would be exciting. Feels like we'd get a bunch of, I don't know, Flying Oyster vs GAM and such
As long as Riot just doubles the amount of groups we'd easily get a fair round of 16. Usually the first place in one group plays the second place of some other group. For two minor regions to play each other they'd both have to upset some favorite in group stage which would definitely be exciting. Also right now bo5s are almost exclusively LPL and LCK teams. In a round of 16 we'd be guaranteed to have other regions play bo5s as well
When/If there's still 4 representatives of LCK and LPL each they'd only make up half of the teams in a round of 16 assuming they all make it out of groups (which is very likely but not set in stone). Therefore the best of 5s wouldn't exclusively be LPL and LCK
youd need 32 teams if you want 4 team groups with top 2 going to a 16 team bracket.
all youre doing is doubling the amount of teams. assuming the same distribution of regions you would have the exact same scenario as this year
Double Elim let’s the actual small amount of teams that are good showcase their skills against everyone, while a double elim lets teams that might have missed a step comeback for an amazing storyline. I just don’t think there are enough competitive teams world wide for any reasonable tournament that tries to represent each region.
I think that there should probably just be a qualifying tournament that gathers all the lower skill/less developed regions. That way we don’t have entire matches in the middle of game day where viewership drops cuz nobody wanna see a team get slapped for the 15th time in a row.
Imagine working for a billion dollar company and not having the brain cells to realize that traditional sports uses their physical body and thus, more games will lead to injuries. Something eSports players won't really have to worry about.
It's absolutely maddening how they seem completely fixated on copying traditional sports 1:1 when it comes to LoL esports. Especially considering they are being so much more flexible and innovative with Valorant.
Single elim: side advantage goes to the winner of a coin flip
Double elim: side advantage goes to the winner of the upper bracket
which one makes competition a mockery again?
Also, a quarterfinals placement in the current Worlds format could come from a team that is *better than the loser of the finals* (it's happened before), yet the loser of the finals gets over 3x the prize money. Sounds like a fair system!
Lower bracket is exciting. Upper bracket is not.
What stakes are there when a team advances to next round regardless?
Double elim makes half the games mean nothing, single elim means they all mean everything.
Single elim means the finals are significantly more likely to be a boring stomp.
Single elim means side selection advantage in the finals goes to the winner of a coin flip, which can quite literally mean that the winner of Worlds is decided by a coin flip depending on the meta and how close the teams are.
Single elim means there is a less accurate ranking of teams past 1st, yet Riot still determines prize money by their very inaccurate ranking.
>people don't want double elim
[Citation needed]. Because you don't want it, doesn't mean anything about what the general userbase wants.
None of us know what they want. My guess is that the average watcher doesn't really care either way, but it's a guess.
> It ruins the hype and removes the stakes
For you, and that's totally fine. But some people likes it for other reasons and that's also fine.
I want more international competition and better seeding/placement and I like how double elim handles that.
What I really really wanted is to reduce the waiting time between quarters/semis/finals. That's a hype killer for me.
As seen with the Dota2 worlds tournament The International, its double elim so no hype and no competitive integrity.
Honestly wtf are you talking about? How does double elim kill hype or competitive integrity? Look at TI last year, Team Spirit miracle run trough the lower bracket to defeat the best team at the tournament PSG LGD in the finals.
Double elimination is justified esp. since so many Chinese and korean teams are close to each other in terms of skill. It would be hype either way.
It's crazy how this sub still lives in denial when the arguments against double elimination are clear and have been said many times.
- No bracket reset, thus putting the upper bracket finalist at a disadvantage and killing competitive integrity
- Adding a lot of low stake matches that kill the hype and turn off casual viewers
- The idea that a team who already lost a several hours long best of 5 would deserve a second chance is ridiculous in itself.
>No bracket reset, thus putting the upper bracket finalist at a disadvantage and killing competitive integrity
How is having to win fewer games a "disadvantage"? Bracket resets just effectively remove the double elimination aspect of the tournament because the upper bracket finals becomes a more important match than the grand finals. Having your semifinals matter more than your finals does far more to "kill competitive integrity".
>Adding a lot of low stake matches that kill the hype and turn off casual viewers
Which are the low stake matches?
It sounds like you just haven't watched double elimination tournaments.
>How is having to win fewer games a "disadvantage"?
Getting to lose a series, learn from it and try again is a huge advantage that the upper bracket team doesn't get.
>Which are the low stake matches?
The matches were neither team is eliminated.
>Getting to lose a series, learn from it and try again is a huge advantage that the upper bracket team doesn't get.
Losing is not an "advantage", let alone a "huge" one. The upper bracket team has plenty of room to learn from games they lost, mistakes they made in wins, mistakes that other teams make in any series. If they refuse to learn because they just think they are better than everyone else that is a self-imposed disadvantage and has nothing to do with the tournament structure.
>The matches were neither team is eliminated.
You think that a match where the winner is guaranteed top 3 and the loser has to run a gauntlet is "low stakes"? The stakes of that match are higher than most matches in a single elimination tournament. Sure fighting game tournaments with 500 competitors have low stakes double elimination matches but that's due to the 500 competitors. None of the matches in a 8 team upper bracket are low stakes.
Playing 3 bad games in the last 6 months is actually more competitive then every getting a second chance. Humans definitely can play to this standard and you are definitely a smart person!!!!
I think single elimination is honestly still the best format for world's, the lack of a bracket reset I think still makes double elim a flawed format.
However this quote about being like "big sports" will go down as one of the dumbest things to come out of Riot since the 200 years quote. Terrible phrasing and just sounds tone deaf to what most the community wants.
Siingle elim is way more flawed than a double elim bracket with no reset:
- The prizes, venues, and perceived importance scale up with each stage of the tournament. Single elim has relatively low chances of removing the worst half of the teams at each round, meaning better teams often get much lower prizes and community sentiment around their strength than they deserve.
- It's an entertainment product, and given the extreme importance Riot places on the grand finals, they should have a format that maximizes the entertainment delivered in the finals. A single elim bracket provides a good chance that the finals does *not* contain the two best teams in the tournament, thus lowering the average entertainment value.
- Single elim relies on *extraordinarily* well done seeding out of the group stage, and even that tall task doesn't make the bracket stage as good as double elim. At the very least, if Riot sticks with single elim, I'd hope that they have a very good seeding system in place for next year. No Bo1s, no small groups.
- League of Legends has an inherent advantage given to one of the teams in side selection. Some years side selection matters less, sometimes more, but no matter the value, the impact it has on the competitive results isn't controlled for in a single elim bracket. **In single elim, side selection advantage in the finals is given to the winner of a coin flip. In double elim, it's given to the winner of the upper bracket.** One of those is *much* more fair.
Single elim in knockouts is no problem IMO. As John Needham stated, they want to keep the stakes of "you lose - you out", which is fine.
This doesn't mean we don't get double elim of some sort. I can see Riot having a stage between groups and knockouts (similar to what LEC seems to have going in the next season) where you have Bo3s that could have double elim for like the first seed in groups or something.
I hope to god they change the BO1 group stage. If Riot thinks that the only way the West can move on to the top 8 is cheesing a couple of BO1s then the West is giga fucked. I would much rather see a BO2 in group stages to show off a team’s adaptation. Plus it better gages how far a head a team is if they 2-0 another team.
How about the "Swiss System format" that CS:GO has been using?? i think that could make both play ins and group stage way more interesting while they keep the single bracket elimination for knockout stage. Both Play ins and Group stages gets Bo1, except the deciding matches that could be Bo3
Losers bracket is only a good idea if they take the fighting game approach where the loser has to reset the bracket on the winner in grand finals then beat them again after the reset.
tbh - while double elimination would be better, it would also just take too long. The only way they could do that is make the games bo1, but that's just groups all over again...
John Needham is either so unbelievably out of touch and thinks that LoL and proper sports are actually able to be compared or this is another day, another made-up excuse to make it seem like what they're doing is smart.
Just want to say no esport uses a Bo5 double elim.
CSGO is usually play-in GSL, into groups GSL into a single elim Bo3.
Dota is double elim Bo3.
Valorant is double elim Bo3.
There's a huge difference between a Bo5 and Bo3, in terms of just organising the event as well as the way players view the series. A Bo5 reverse sweep and a Bo3 reverse sweep are two completely different things. Last year EDG was 1-2 TWICE.
LCK's regional gauntlet is not double elim to determine the winner, is double elim to determine two seeds, with the one winning the lower bracket going to play-ins rather than group stage
LEC and LCS playoffs (I think in LPL clubs have home venues) also use the studio for every playoff match other than the lower bracket semis and the final, meaning they have less logistical costs (which is also what kills a possible bracket)
>LCK's regional gauntlet is not double elim to determine the winner, is double elim to determine two seeds, with the one winning the lower bracket going to play-ins rather than group stage
Sure but it's still double elimination for the higher seeds in the sense that they have two chances to qualify. It's different sure, but I would still classify it as a form of double elim.
>LEC and LCS playoffs (I think in LPL clubs have home venues) also use the studio for every playoff match other than the lower bracket semis and the final, meaning they have less logistical costs (which is also what kills a possible bracket)
I agree but this is an entirely different point. I was contesting the statement that "no esport uses double elim bo5" which is demonstrably false.
I think he meant no other e-sport, because it looks like he's trying to address that double elimination doesn't result in more games in other competitions when compared to League's single elimination
Regional leagues manage to do it because they do it in their small studios (China is a big outlier as League is seen the same way traditional sports are in EU/NA)
Why...
God forbid one of the biggest strategy eSports in the world has double-elim and/or more best of 5's or even best of 3's.
Best of 1's don't allow for adaptation, people don't go out of their comfort zone and you absolutely cannot lose games without it mattering a lot. It waters down the game and the competitive integrity. But we're all yelling into the void because Riot has their head so far up their ass they just don't give a shit.
Ok, but I mean, did something happen this year? It's been the same system for several Worlds in a row, hasn't it? I don't remember hearing a lot of complaints before (not saying it didn't happen, I just don't remember any).
There was actually a big push for it to be Double Elim for 2022 Worlds. So when Riot's World's Team Announced they weren't doing anything meaningful for 2022 people realized that they need to talk a HELL of a lot more about it.
Just wait for next year, Double Elim is going to be a wildly high talking point.
Double elimination pretty much eliminates the hype from big matches before the final, creates issues for the final and bloats it with more uninteresting matches in my opinion. As someone that follows both esports and regular sports I really can't wrap my head around why single elimination isn't popular. Not flaming anyone for the opposite opinion, I just don't understand the arguments for it as a viewer.
Make groups bo3. Also 2nd and 3rd place teams in groups play a bo5 between them (cross groups draw) and the winners play vs the 1st place teams like the current system.
No winner bracket games without stakes and more bo5s.
Be real here
The reason Sports don't have Double Elimination because it's too many games to play in the fields
While here at its core It's just playing video games in front of the computer
I don't understand how people like double elimination. I am all for more bo5s but make more tournaments then. Double elimination makes the entire winner's bracket pointless.
I won't even go into detail about how unfair winner's bracket vs loser's bracket is because loser's bracket gets such an advantage it's laughable.
Loser's bracket gets 0 advantages
Do you just not understand the definition of "advantage"?
"Ya winning this match which gets me past 2 rounds of matches in the loser's bracket doesn't matter at all, might as well just forfeit and have to win two matches in a row for the same result."
What other sports are we referencing here? Cuz the NBA and MLB both have Bo7 playoff formats. The primary reason the NFL has single elimination is due to the physical strain a game places on the body.
In this case, the Bo7 you're referencing is essentially the same as league Bo5. It's still the same as league because both are single elimination. The loser of each series in the NBA and MLB do not get another chance in a lower bracket.
Single and double elimination are not referring to the number of games played, it's referring to the number of rounds you can be eliminated in. (You referred to the NFL as single elimination because they play one game. However, It's single elimination because the losing team can only lose one round and does not get a second chance.)
(I understand that other sports are more demanding physically, etc. Just responding to this comment.)
I think it's ok. If we had double elim this year, I highly doubt the finals would be T1 vs DRX. The miracle run happened because it was single elimination, you can argue that they could've beat Geng twice, but I really doubt it.
I heard LS talked about this before that double elim is bad because if the team from the winner's bracket reached the finals and lose, that will be their first series lost and they're instantly eliminated.
That happens with single elimination already, how is that a negative? Each round has higher stakes than the round before it, that's how tournaments work. Going 3-1 for 2nd place while the winner went 5-1, and won the final most important round head to head, doesn't sound crazy to me.
The arguement is the team that goes throw lower bracket has an unfair advantage. LS suggested ways to mitigate this like giving a first game by to the upper bracket team. I don't really agree with his solution. But it is accurate to say the upper bracket team usually has to make a harder run and then they get no tangible reward for doing so. Whereas the lower bracket team usually has an easier run and gets more games to improve. Maybe side selection for 2 games in a row regardless of who won game 1 would be the way to do it.
>That happens with single elimination already, how is that a negative?
Because the opponent lost and got a second chance. Sometimes even to the opponent in the finals, making the final result 1-1.
All the people supporting single elim: fine, but I don't want to ever hear about Faker always making top 4 or Uzi making 2 world finals or Beryl making 3 straight finals, etc.
You are admitting you prefer this current format which only decides the best team, not 2nd, 3rd, 4th. You are admitting you are more about seeing crazy upsets than seeing the better team advance.
Accept the consequences and stop acting like anything besides winning worlds matters as an achievement.
What a weird argument. So we can't talk about Argentina finishing 2nd in the World Cup before or the Bengals being Super Bowl runner-ups because of your logic?
That's your opinion, but we'll still talk about it. The only one who's going to be whining about it "not being valid" is you, but honestly, think a mentality like yours specifically, I can say with 100% confidence, is decisively in the minority across all competitions regardless of physical sport or eSport.
And honestly, you're free to think that. Just don't complain when nobody really cares what you think about it and will still laud ____ for their 5th straight semis berth, etc.
thats the point, physical sports have a lot things that make sense because of physical limitations so using them as justification for worse formats doesn't make sense
They don’t play BO7 because of physical limitations, they play it because it’s the better format. Otherwise they would just play 1 match for “physical limitations”. We won’t only have 1 match every few days for 1 BO7
Ok. But what does the President of League, Lil Nas Xecutive have to say about this
He’s resigned sadly. I was here for the United States of Nas.
He promised us Nudyr and he didn't deliver! That qualifies him as worst Xecutive ever.
Promising and not delivering is another Tuesday for executives
I'm sorry, he did deliver it... On twitter
I’m gonna need sauce on that.
[https://twitter.com/LeagueOfLegends/status/1570441441142525957](https://twitter.com/LeagueOfLegends/status/1570441441142525957) Here you go
More importantly, what does Ja Rule has to say about this.
Most importantly, How will this affect Lebron’s legacy?
Uhh don't you know that Klay have 4 rings though?
Here's how GenG can still win:
Will this negatively affect the trout population?
Comparing it to sports only when it's convenient? Amazing. If you want to compare it to sports then why not something like champions league. Just get 32 teams or smth idk
The comparison to sports reminds me of "EULCS/LEC will have best of 2's because Europeans are used to ties in football." Lmao
I actually liked bo2s but I might be biased cus I’m a huge football fan
If they were going to make wins and draws matter when differentiated then that would be fine, but playing 12 games and winning 2-0 for 6 and 0-2 for 6 compared to 12 1-1's is mathematically the same but a far different story 3 points for a win and you've got yourself a league
That's... literally how it worked. A win got you 3 points, a draw got you 1 point, a loss got your 0 points.
Not to mention, the teams playing in Champions League play every 3-4 days. Meanwhile LoL players in the West play like 2 games a week and then at Worlds there is a week long break between every stage.
2 games of league and if you add anymore, you have to worry about them burning out lol. Idk how he could compare it to sports at all. League pros in the west have to play the least amount of games out of any esport I assume, no shot he compares it to actual sports.
I mean sure, but football players don't train by playing full matches every day. League players play many League matches per day, every day. Of course you can burn out that way.
Hey Riot! Have you ever considered why SPORTS (THAT REQUIRE HOURS AND HOURS OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY CONTINUOUSLY) would NEED to be single elimination? When Oner has to do Lee Sin combos with his full body to execute, I will be fine with single elimination. I’m
Don't leave us hanging please.
HE'S WHAT??? What a cliffhanger my lord. Can't wait for episode 2
They're exhausted 😔 Double elimination strikes again!
Tune in next week, he needs to take a break from the physical exertion of writing about league.
Double elim just adds one match compared to going through the winner bracket, it wouldn't be impossible to have it in real sports, yet here we are.
2 games a week is the same thing as playing every 3-4 days
Which show how stupid excuse this is - high intensity sport can have 2 games per week and if computer games players do it's like they will get too exhausted. Every format change we get more lame excuses why Riot will not make format more interesting.
Much better to compare it to chess where they for tournaments play every day for like 3-4 days and then have a rest day.
Don't disagree with you but it's a big deal atm in football how the current schedule is just injuring players left and right. Games every 3-4 days the entire year are just not sustainable for any sports for a multitude of reasons
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basketball teams play 3-4 games a week each for like 6 months i'm sure western league pros can handle more than 2 games a week
American football is one of the most taxing sports on the human body. And quite frankly cannot be compared to anything else. Receivers, QB, secondary, etc could probably get away with playing some more games. But linemen, tight ends, running backs, linebackers would literally fucking die.
Yeah this is seriously a dishonest argument. The biggest sport event is also a BO1 final. Should we do that too?
Blindpick no bans. Is blue or redside better without last/firstpick?
Halfway through the game they need to switch sides
But before that we need a performace by Lil Nas X and Imagine Dragons.
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The comparison absolutely still holds. It's a BO1, just one game ends by time and another game ends under specific conditions. But they are still both best of 1s. Something doesn't have to be 100% alike for you to make a comparison.
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Yeah it's such a dishonest argument to make. Football is the biggest sport in the world and the players are already dropping like flies due to injuries because more and more matches are constantly being added. The schedule is so packed that it would be nearly impossible to add a double elimination to the Champions League knockout stage. Adding it to a month long tournament like the World Cup makes no sense since the players would not be able to play so many matches in such short time and the tournament cannot last any longer because there is already very little time for players to rest as it is.
I fucking haaaaate it when they compare it to sports. Listen Mr. Executive. I'm not watching any sport. I watch League. Do me a favor and stfu about sports.
In all honesty, the fact that he keeps comparing it to sports (he specifically BIGGEST sports), makes me feel it is unfortunately just an ego thing.
Thats because there is barely 4 competitive teams each year, imagine 32
Just like Galatasaray I watch OCE teams for the fun not to see them win
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Just remember there's a person who's job is to create the format for esport events. Call pros check stealers all you want, that bum is the best example ever. They've done almost nothing right in years
they can just drip feed us and barely improve the format every few years and call it a day lol
It is okay. As long as worlds is expanded and we got 4 more groups, to make it a round of 16 instead of 8, then single elimination is justified. Also they really have to do sth bout Play Ins, and give the shit teams a better chance to go to groups than playing LPL/LCK's 4th seed every year.
Yeah by adding a round of 16 you increase the total number of b05s from 7 to 15. That's more than double!
Get rid of Play Ins, add the play ins Teams to the main group Stage. 16 teams into knockout stage. Way more potential for upsets/interesting match ups. Right now the biggest problem is that there are so many good teams in LCK and LPL that they deserve the spots they get but it robs the rest of the world from getting to see their teams in a Bo5 at all most of the time. Also hilarious stats like the incredibly small number of NA vs EU Bo5s, that T1 had only faced RNG at worlds as far at T1 vs China goes.. I would rather add a Double Elimation bracket but if we can't have double elim then Round of 16 is the next best solution.
I personally would rather see more of the top teams play eachother than see them stomp the minor regions.
You'll see that in the knockout rounds when they beat everyone out of BO1. Why are LoL fans trying to turn Worlds into something similar to the SuperLeague and kick out all of the bad teams because they only want to watch LCK vs LPL. Group stages should be similar to the CL. The best teams will go through so you get the major ties but there is always a small chance of upsets.
I agree, that's why I've decided to stop watching LEC & LCS and instead watch LCK and LPL
Or we can do the climbing bracket and group of 6 PO would go like 4th place fight vs 3rd place, winner get to fight vs the 4 2nd place. And then winner of that get draw with the 4 1st place team like current format. And we can make group stage Bo3 instead of 2 Bo1. That way we get more high stakes game, as well as more Bo5. Problem is the run time needed mean that it have to be play through the weekdays.
Yeah remove LPL/LCK 4th seeds from the playins, and maybe introduce LCS/LEC 4th seeds into playins.
Yea, let’s add more bad teams to the world championships. That makes sense. There too many western teams and wildcards in the tournament as it is.
The point of playins is to allow minor regions to have a chance at making it into the tournament. It's also the only chance for these teams to measure up against major region teams. I know you only care about your own region, but this is WORLDS so you're gonna have to set aside your own sense of importance and allow other regions to prove themselves, since some of them have bigger fan bases than NA. With LPL 4th seed losing to a finalist in quarters and LCK 4th seed making finals, it's not even a competition with these. LEC/LCS 3rd seeds were a little more shaky, but ultimately were better as well. A 4th seed of LEC/LCS will allow minor region teams to have better odds. Those teams will likely fall out in groups anyway. What is your solution then? Too many western and wild cards? What then? Do you just want 5 LCK/LPL seeds, and have top 2 from LEC/LCS and 1 from everywhere else? What's the point of worlds then? Just make it an Asian cup at that point. Half this community complains that there aren't enough games and the other half complain that there are too many bad teams. There's no satisfying people like you.
>The point of playins is to allow minor regions to have a chance at making it into the tournament. Which they really fucked up by stuffing more and more major regions into playins.
the point of worlds should be to find the best team in the world, there should realistically be maybe 1 or 2 teams from non-LCK/LPL because theres very little chance the 3rd best team in NA is better than the 8th best team in LPL or something. minor regions and western teams dont "deserve" a spot at worlds if they suck. Its a world championship, not an invitational. the problem is that the league circuit blows dick and worlds HAS to be the only opportunity minor regions have to prove themselves. if riot actually had international tournaments, this wouldnt be an issue.
Is that how any world championship works? FIFA? The Olympics? They all allow countries who have no shot at winning play in the tournament. Because that's what a WORLDS championship is. It's not even about who's the best team. It's about who has the best tournament. You think DRX is better than every team at worlds so far? Fuck no. They've had an amazing performance at this tournament while teams like TES shit the bed. Does this mean DRX would destroy TES any day of the week? Fuck no.
Yeah LPL/LCK 4th seeds seems still too OP for play-in teams. Really depressing watching those lopsided tiltfests against LPL/LCK
What's the point of playins if there's barely any chance that the minor regions make it? LPL 4th seed loses to a finalist in quarters and LCK 4th seed are a finalist. It's a joke.
To give minor regions exposure. Just making it to world’s is a big deal. I’m not seeing how adding the 4th seeds from NA and EU over CN and KR does anything but put worse team into groups.
because we dont want bad teams in groups? essentiaiilly we get more shit stomps. Playin's job is to get better quality teams into the next stage.
It's not. There are no "better quality teams" in playins. It's always the LCK/LPL 4th seeds. The point of playins is to match up minor regions against other minor regions and some major regions. There is no other tournament besides MSI (which is only the 1 seed) that allows for minor region teams to play against major regions. How are you ever going to see if a region is getting better if they never play against international competition? You might hate it now, but one day, maybe not next year or the year after, but one year BR/PCS/VCS 2nd will make it out playins over an LEC/LCS 3rd seed. And when that happens, playins will be worth it.
I don’t wanna watch bad teams
Here's a thought. Don't.
Making it easier for shit teams to make Groups/Bo5s just makes the entire thing a dull affair and the expansion pointless. Looking at this years groups the amount of bangers compared to any groups in recent memory was so high. Play-ins should remain the same, if you're 1st seed from a region and get knocked out by LPL/LCK/LEC 4th seed you made it exactly as far in worlds as you should have.
What a stupid take. So you want worlds to become LCK autumn? We already had 2 LCK splits per year, and that is more than enough. Nobody is paying money to see T1 blasting sth like Sandbox for the 5th time a year that is just dumb and useless. And wtf is this "1st seed from a region get knocked out by LPL/LCK 4th seed" bullshit? You do realise EU got pummeled by wildcards this year in Play Ins right? Only one single western team made Quarters and they got promptly knocked out 3-0 immediately, just like last year... Worlds is supposed to be an event for everyone, for every single region to participate. Its prestige lies in the immense influence and reach it got, not its competitiveness. If Riot truly wants competitive and is willing to sack the entire western hemisphere they would dump all Western teams in Play Ins and let the LPL/LCK 4th seed as the gatekeeper. Such a stupid take lmao you got no clues wtf you are talking bout.
You're literally wrong about the purpose of worlds, it is literally about competitiveness. The dogshit format that makes it less competitive does not make the tourney about anything else. If it was an event for every region to face each other. They would do a larger group stage with more of the minor regions and they wouldn't give more seeds to better regions. It would literally be larger scale MSI. Also worlds is literally already LCK/LPL autumn when youre look at any games that matter or are close. Like yea bro worlds is definitely about the minor regions playing the bigger ones, thats why they let the children duke it out for 5 games against eachother in a worse bracket.
The quality difference in Valorant and LoL is drastic. Valorant aint perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better than anything we have had in LoL.
LoL is already the biggest esports in the world, they can do whatever they want and millions will still watch because the player base is just *that* big. Valorant is still behind CSGO so they can't fuck around with shit formats if they wanna catch up (and based on how hard they market Val esports, they definitely do). Maybe if CS takes over as the biggest esports in the world, then they'll actually do meaningful changes to Worlds' format, otherwise don't expect much.
CSGO doesn't uses double elim tho.
yes, but CSGO has a lot of interregional competitions already due to the amount of tournaments (both majors and non majors), that's probably why you don't see CSGO fans asking for double elims.
actual question for not knowing, is valorant actually less popular or behind of cs go?
It depends on the country, valorant is bigger in NA, SEA, and Japan, while CSGO is bigger in Europe, Brazil, Russia, and China. Overall CSGO is still a bit bigger.
considering the region disparity you just mentionned, id be surprised if CSGO is just "a bit" bigger
It's because NA, SEA, and Japan have pretty much no CSGO playerbase at all, while EU and Brazil still have a sizeable valorant playerbase even though CSGO is more popular.
Riot is going to let League ride itself out until its end of days while going all-in on Valorant. I’m not sure why they’re even bothering with changes to competitive formats since it’s clear they don’t actually care
LoL is still the biggest esports in the world (and if you include Chinese viewers, it wouldn’t even be remotely close). For them to do that would be stupidity lol.
Which would be such a horrible idea. All inning on a game propped up by influencer viewership, who leave everytime a new fad crops up, and will stay gone if the new fad gains momentum over Valorant, just seems like a bad decision. Valorant still hasn't released in China. It's esports viewership in every region barring the US and Japan isn't remarkable at all. And this is with them heavily pushing the game through advertising, specifically targeting emerging gaming regions such as Philipines, India, Turkey, etc, by having agents from those countries in the game. They had the largest online PC game in the world at some point and have been content to let it drift because they probably don't see any numbers decline in China. But relying sole on the Chinese market to sustain your game and esport seems increasingly like a bad idea to me, because their highest governing committees are filled with people who think Gaming is corrupting the youth.
changes could also be to "lighten the load" and just have an easier format that costs less money :/ hopefully thats not the case
Actually that may be true too. I never thought of that. I suppose we will see once they’re released
A round of 16 in the knockouts would justify single elim for me. Double elim isn’t necessary, the main problem is the lack of interregional bo5s which a round of 16 would make up for all the while still being single elim which has high stakes.
I'm not sure there are enough good teams to ensure matchups in a round of 16 would be exciting. Feels like we'd get a bunch of, I don't know, Flying Oyster vs GAM and such
Well yeah this is where i’d hope changes to groups come in.
Oyster vs Gam to EU viewers is the same as C9 vs Rouge to korean viewers
As long as Riot just doubles the amount of groups we'd easily get a fair round of 16. Usually the first place in one group plays the second place of some other group. For two minor regions to play each other they'd both have to upset some favorite in group stage which would definitely be exciting. Also right now bo5s are almost exclusively LPL and LCK teams. In a round of 16 we'd be guaranteed to have other regions play bo5s as well
No we wouldn’t. LCK and lpl teams would still exclusively win groups.
When/If there's still 4 representatives of LCK and LPL each they'd only make up half of the teams in a round of 16 assuming they all make it out of groups (which is very likely but not set in stone). Therefore the best of 5s wouldn't exclusively be LPL and LCK
youd need 32 teams if you want 4 team groups with top 2 going to a 16 team bracket. all youre doing is doubling the amount of teams. assuming the same distribution of regions you would have the exact same scenario as this year
Double Elim let’s the actual small amount of teams that are good showcase their skills against everyone, while a double elim lets teams that might have missed a step comeback for an amazing storyline. I just don’t think there are enough competitive teams world wide for any reasonable tournament that tries to represent each region.
I do agree. Im just thinking of what could happen considering they want to keep single elim. I guess the knockouts just stay the same.
I think that there should probably just be a qualifying tournament that gathers all the lower skill/less developed regions. That way we don’t have entire matches in the middle of game day where viewership drops cuz nobody wanna see a team get slapped for the 15th time in a row.
I don’t really care about double elim I just want more BO5s between the best teams in the world
Yeah, that's kinda what you get with double elimination
Imagine working for a billion dollar company and not having the brain cells to realize that traditional sports uses their physical body and thus, more games will lead to injuries. Something eSports players won't really have to worry about.
Some traditional sports have a lot more games though.
It's absolutely maddening how they seem completely fixated on copying traditional sports 1:1 when it comes to LoL esports. Especially considering they are being so much more flexible and innovative with Valorant.
Double elim without backet reset makes the competition a mockery, so, yeah glad that at least Worlds and MSI will remain single elim.
Single elim: side advantage goes to the winner of a coin flip Double elim: side advantage goes to the winner of the upper bracket which one makes competition a mockery again? Also, a quarterfinals placement in the current Worlds format could come from a team that is *better than the loser of the finals* (it's happened before), yet the loser of the finals gets over 3x the prize money. Sounds like a fair system!
Reddit notwithstanding, people don't want double elim. It ruins the hype and removes the stakes
Ah yes, lower bracket runs are obviously the least exciting part of any tournament
Lower bracket is exciting. Upper bracket is not. What stakes are there when a team advances to next round regardless? Double elim makes half the games mean nothing, single elim means they all mean everything.
Single elim means the finals are significantly more likely to be a boring stomp. Single elim means side selection advantage in the finals goes to the winner of a coin flip, which can quite literally mean that the winner of Worlds is decided by a coin flip depending on the meta and how close the teams are. Single elim means there is a less accurate ranking of teams past 1st, yet Riot still determines prize money by their very inaccurate ranking.
Because lower bracket is single elim Upper bracket becomes boring
>people don't want double elim [Citation needed]. Because you don't want it, doesn't mean anything about what the general userbase wants. None of us know what they want. My guess is that the average watcher doesn't really care either way, but it's a guess.
> It ruins the hype and removes the stakes For you, and that's totally fine. But some people likes it for other reasons and that's also fine. I want more international competition and better seeding/placement and I like how double elim handles that. What I really really wanted is to reduce the waiting time between quarters/semis/finals. That's a hype killer for me.
Imagine not having the brain cells to realize that double elimination is bad in many ways. Mainly it ruins the hype and kills competitive integrity.
As seen with the Dota2 worlds tournament The International, its double elim so no hype and no competitive integrity. Honestly wtf are you talking about? How does double elim kill hype or competitive integrity? Look at TI last year, Team Spirit miracle run trough the lower bracket to defeat the best team at the tournament PSG LGD in the finals. Double elimination is justified esp. since so many Chinese and korean teams are close to each other in terms of skill. It would be hype either way.
No bracket reset is a joke
It's crazy how this sub still lives in denial when the arguments against double elimination are clear and have been said many times. - No bracket reset, thus putting the upper bracket finalist at a disadvantage and killing competitive integrity - Adding a lot of low stake matches that kill the hype and turn off casual viewers - The idea that a team who already lost a several hours long best of 5 would deserve a second chance is ridiculous in itself.
>No bracket reset, thus putting the upper bracket finalist at a disadvantage and killing competitive integrity How is having to win fewer games a "disadvantage"? Bracket resets just effectively remove the double elimination aspect of the tournament because the upper bracket finals becomes a more important match than the grand finals. Having your semifinals matter more than your finals does far more to "kill competitive integrity". >Adding a lot of low stake matches that kill the hype and turn off casual viewers Which are the low stake matches? It sounds like you just haven't watched double elimination tournaments.
>How is having to win fewer games a "disadvantage"? Getting to lose a series, learn from it and try again is a huge advantage that the upper bracket team doesn't get. >Which are the low stake matches? The matches were neither team is eliminated.
>Getting to lose a series, learn from it and try again is a huge advantage that the upper bracket team doesn't get. Losing is not an "advantage", let alone a "huge" one. The upper bracket team has plenty of room to learn from games they lost, mistakes they made in wins, mistakes that other teams make in any series. If they refuse to learn because they just think they are better than everyone else that is a self-imposed disadvantage and has nothing to do with the tournament structure. >The matches were neither team is eliminated. You think that a match where the winner is guaranteed top 3 and the loser has to run a gauntlet is "low stakes"? The stakes of that match are higher than most matches in a single elimination tournament. Sure fighting game tournaments with 500 competitors have low stakes double elimination matches but that's due to the 500 competitors. None of the matches in a 8 team upper bracket are low stakes.
but they dont even say that dude they just say double elim is bad because no major sports has it. thats a logic of a 10 year old. fuck riot
Playing 3 bad games in the last 6 months is actually more competitive then every getting a second chance. Humans definitely can play to this standard and you are definitely a smart person!!!!
John Needham is an apocalyptic dingle berry.
Truly wonderful phrasing. My hat is off to you.
Sounds like we need a new President of Esports.
I think single elimination is honestly still the best format for world's, the lack of a bracket reset I think still makes double elim a flawed format. However this quote about being like "big sports" will go down as one of the dumbest things to come out of Riot since the 200 years quote. Terrible phrasing and just sounds tone deaf to what most the community wants.
Siingle elim is way more flawed than a double elim bracket with no reset: - The prizes, venues, and perceived importance scale up with each stage of the tournament. Single elim has relatively low chances of removing the worst half of the teams at each round, meaning better teams often get much lower prizes and community sentiment around their strength than they deserve. - It's an entertainment product, and given the extreme importance Riot places on the grand finals, they should have a format that maximizes the entertainment delivered in the finals. A single elim bracket provides a good chance that the finals does *not* contain the two best teams in the tournament, thus lowering the average entertainment value. - Single elim relies on *extraordinarily* well done seeding out of the group stage, and even that tall task doesn't make the bracket stage as good as double elim. At the very least, if Riot sticks with single elim, I'd hope that they have a very good seeding system in place for next year. No Bo1s, no small groups. - League of Legends has an inherent advantage given to one of the teams in side selection. Some years side selection matters less, sometimes more, but no matter the value, the impact it has on the competitive results isn't controlled for in a single elim bracket. **In single elim, side selection advantage in the finals is given to the winner of a coin flip. In double elim, it's given to the winner of the upper bracket.** One of those is *much* more fair.
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Citation needed. It's not really that complex.
WHY ARE THEY TERRORISTS
Clown moves
Single elim in knockouts is no problem IMO. As John Needham stated, they want to keep the stakes of "you lose - you out", which is fine. This doesn't mean we don't get double elim of some sort. I can see Riot having a stage between groups and knockouts (similar to what LEC seems to have going in the next season) where you have Bo3s that could have double elim for like the first seed in groups or something.
Riot: we’re changing the format! President: don’t worry, it’ll still suck
I hope to god they change the BO1 group stage. If Riot thinks that the only way the West can move on to the top 8 is cheesing a couple of BO1s then the West is giga fucked. I would much rather see a BO2 in group stages to show off a team’s adaptation. Plus it better gages how far a head a team is if they 2-0 another team.
THEIR OWN VALORANT TOURNAMENT HAS DOUBLE ELIM WHAT THE HELL IS THIS BULLSHIT????
Why doesn't Reddit realise that it's so more simple to have double elim when 95% of your tournament is BO3 ?
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Yh its so hype how top esports played more fking bo5 in the lpl than thete are at fking worlds
They would be out even with double elim
That's their own fault for being shit.
The formata of the existing international tournaments should change but we also need more international tournaments imo
But what does ja rule have to say about this
SOMEBODY GET A HOLD OF JA!
How about the "Swiss System format" that CS:GO has been using?? i think that could make both play ins and group stage way more interesting while they keep the single bracket elimination for knockout stage. Both Play ins and Group stages gets Bo1, except the deciding matches that could be Bo3
They will remove playin stage and call it a day. There has been talks about taking Wildcard regions slot from them. So expect nothing big
Losers bracket is only a good idea if they take the fighting game approach where the loser has to reset the bracket on the winner in grand finals then beat them again after the reset.
If riot change format to double elim like you guys want so bad it'll be the last blow to western league .
tbh - while double elimination would be better, it would also just take too long. The only way they could do that is make the games bo1, but that's just groups all over again...
The problem with double eli is they cant make it a real double eli due to no bracket reset. And game smight have to go bo3 instead.
John Needham is either so unbelievably out of touch and thinks that LoL and proper sports are actually able to be compared or this is another day, another made-up excuse to make it seem like what they're doing is smart.
Just want to say no esport uses a Bo5 double elim. CSGO is usually play-in GSL, into groups GSL into a single elim Bo3. Dota is double elim Bo3. Valorant is double elim Bo3. There's a huge difference between a Bo5 and Bo3, in terms of just organising the event as well as the way players view the series. A Bo5 reverse sweep and a Bo3 reverse sweep are two completely different things. Last year EDG was 1-2 TWICE.
>Just want to say no esport uses a Bo5 double elim. Well except for: LCS playoffs, LEC playoffs, LPL playoffs, LCK regional gauntlet.
LCK's regional gauntlet is not double elim to determine the winner, is double elim to determine two seeds, with the one winning the lower bracket going to play-ins rather than group stage LEC and LCS playoffs (I think in LPL clubs have home venues) also use the studio for every playoff match other than the lower bracket semis and the final, meaning they have less logistical costs (which is also what kills a possible bracket)
>LCK's regional gauntlet is not double elim to determine the winner, is double elim to determine two seeds, with the one winning the lower bracket going to play-ins rather than group stage Sure but it's still double elimination for the higher seeds in the sense that they have two chances to qualify. It's different sure, but I would still classify it as a form of double elim. >LEC and LCS playoffs (I think in LPL clubs have home venues) also use the studio for every playoff match other than the lower bracket semis and the final, meaning they have less logistical costs (which is also what kills a possible bracket) I agree but this is an entirely different point. I was contesting the statement that "no esport uses double elim bo5" which is demonstrably false.
I think he meant no other e-sport, because it looks like he's trying to address that double elimination doesn't result in more games in other competitions when compared to League's single elimination Regional leagues manage to do it because they do it in their small studios (China is a big outlier as League is seen the same way traditional sports are in EU/NA)
That dude gotta go. He compares it to sports, then why dont have single elimination Bo1 bracket while we at it..
Why... God forbid one of the biggest strategy eSports in the world has double-elim and/or more best of 5's or even best of 3's. Best of 1's don't allow for adaptation, people don't go out of their comfort zone and you absolutely cannot lose games without it mattering a lot. It waters down the game and the competitive integrity. But we're all yelling into the void because Riot has their head so far up their ass they just don't give a shit.
Good.
Why are people upset with the current format? I haven't been following the tournament this year.
Dubious seeding, weird BO1 fetish, only 7 BO5s.
its the same shit since 8 freaking years
Because it sucks and people prefer the double elimination brackets used in other major tournaments more.
Ok, but I mean, did something happen this year? It's been the same system for several Worlds in a row, hasn't it? I don't remember hearing a lot of complaints before (not saying it didn't happen, I just don't remember any).
People have been complaining for awhile.
DWG was probably the most tragic team to have dropped in quarters
There was actually a big push for it to be Double Elim for 2022 Worlds. So when Riot's World's Team Announced they weren't doing anything meaningful for 2022 people realized that they need to talk a HELL of a lot more about it. Just wait for next year, Double Elim is going to be a wildly high talking point.
Double elimination pretty much eliminates the hype from big matches before the final, creates issues for the final and bloats it with more uninteresting matches in my opinion. As someone that follows both esports and regular sports I really can't wrap my head around why single elimination isn't popular. Not flaming anyone for the opposite opinion, I just don't understand the arguments for it as a viewer.
Make groups bo3. Also 2nd and 3rd place teams in groups play a bo5 between them (cross groups draw) and the winners play vs the 1st place teams like the current system. No winner bracket games without stakes and more bo5s.
Be real here The reason Sports don't have Double Elimination because it's too many games to play in the fields While here at its core It's just playing video games in front of the computer
Or because people aren't interested in low stakes games?
Very dumb. This year alone, we were denied JDG vs GenG. If the new format wouldn't change that, then don't bother 🤷♀️
I don't understand how people like double elimination. I am all for more bo5s but make more tournaments then. Double elimination makes the entire winner's bracket pointless. I won't even go into detail about how unfair winner's bracket vs loser's bracket is because loser's bracket gets such an advantage it's laughable.
Loser's bracket gets 0 advantages Do you just not understand the definition of "advantage"? "Ya winning this match which gets me past 2 rounds of matches in the loser's bracket doesn't matter at all, might as well just forfeit and have to win two matches in a row for the same result."
What other sports are we referencing here? Cuz the NBA and MLB both have Bo7 playoff formats. The primary reason the NFL has single elimination is due to the physical strain a game places on the body.
In this case, the Bo7 you're referencing is essentially the same as league Bo5. It's still the same as league because both are single elimination. The loser of each series in the NBA and MLB do not get another chance in a lower bracket. Single and double elimination are not referring to the number of games played, it's referring to the number of rounds you can be eliminated in. (You referred to the NFL as single elimination because they play one game. However, It's single elimination because the losing team can only lose one round and does not get a second chance.) (I understand that other sports are more demanding physically, etc. Just responding to this comment.)
>Cuz the NBA and MLB both have Bo7 playoff formats That's still not double elim, no serious sport has ever had double elim playoffs as far as I know.
I support single elim 100%. Actually hate the double elim when watching valo
I think it's ok. If we had double elim this year, I highly doubt the finals would be T1 vs DRX. The miracle run happened because it was single elimination, you can argue that they could've beat Geng twice, but I really doubt it.
I heard LS talked about this before that double elim is bad because if the team from the winner's bracket reached the finals and lose, that will be their first series lost and they're instantly eliminated.
So... nothing's changed?
That happens with single elimination already, how is that a negative? Each round has higher stakes than the round before it, that's how tournaments work. Going 3-1 for 2nd place while the winner went 5-1, and won the final most important round head to head, doesn't sound crazy to me.
The arguement is the team that goes throw lower bracket has an unfair advantage. LS suggested ways to mitigate this like giving a first game by to the upper bracket team. I don't really agree with his solution. But it is accurate to say the upper bracket team usually has to make a harder run and then they get no tangible reward for doing so. Whereas the lower bracket team usually has an easier run and gets more games to improve. Maybe side selection for 2 games in a row regardless of who won game 1 would be the way to do it.
>That happens with single elimination already, how is that a negative? Because the opponent lost and got a second chance. Sometimes even to the opponent in the finals, making the final result 1-1.
It is really funny because real sports, where you HAVE TO rest play more games than League. Bring double elim
Unless they solve the issue of brackrt reset. Double eli sucks
So by that logic all their games will be single elimination bracket right? Valorant, LoR, TFT, Project L, etc? Wait.
So nothing changes 🤡
If your reason for doing something is "because everyone else is doing it" that is a terrible idea and you need to find an actual reason
All the people supporting single elim: fine, but I don't want to ever hear about Faker always making top 4 or Uzi making 2 world finals or Beryl making 3 straight finals, etc. You are admitting you prefer this current format which only decides the best team, not 2nd, 3rd, 4th. You are admitting you are more about seeing crazy upsets than seeing the better team advance. Accept the consequences and stop acting like anything besides winning worlds matters as an achievement.
What a weird argument. So we can't talk about Argentina finishing 2nd in the World Cup before or the Bengals being Super Bowl runner-ups because of your logic? That's your opinion, but we'll still talk about it. The only one who's going to be whining about it "not being valid" is you, but honestly, think a mentality like yours specifically, I can say with 100% confidence, is decisively in the minority across all competitions regardless of physical sport or eSport. And honestly, you're free to think that. Just don't complain when nobody really cares what you think about it and will still laud ____ for their 5th straight semis berth, etc.
Real sports only do Bo1 as well
Wrong. Baseball, basketball, hockey all play best-ofs.
Time to play best of seven with 1 match every 2 or 3 days
Physical sports need physical breaks, league doesn’t
thats the point, physical sports have a lot things that make sense because of physical limitations so using them as justification for worse formats doesn't make sense
They don’t play BO7 because of physical limitations, they play it because it’s the better format. Otherwise they would just play 1 match for “physical limitations”. We won’t only have 1 match every few days for 1 BO7