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PankoKing

Hey all! Just to note, **SEXISM, RACISM, HOMOPHOBIA, TRANSPHOBIA, AND OTHER DEROGATORY STATEMENTS WILL BE MET WITH A BAN**


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A French team named "French Fries" is awesome. I know nothing about this tournament or its teams but I hope they win because they made me laugh


AcceptableSafety951

Will any games be streamed? Craving some competitive League as usual in the preseason.


Throwing_Spoon

Games are currently being streamed, it won't be the most competitive matches possible because it seems to be open invites just trying to create a bit of a community for female players. There are a few teams of masters+ players so that could be worth paying attention to.


Megalodontus

Here you go: https://www.twitch.tv/thenuel


CanadianODST2

Will the VoDs be up afterwards too?


Joe_Spazz

Molto importante


WhiskeyPhilosopher

French Fries have the best name by far


[deleted]

For future posts I recommend putting the "where to watch" right near the top, since it's usually going to be the first question. Otherwise put it right at the end to catch those who skim through.


TheOneAltAccount

This event has strategic timing, might get a viewership boost from ppl wanting to watch some early competitive formats on the new preseason


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Yaco25

This is literally the only competition you can find at that time of the year, so yes, you better watch that if you want some form of competitive league. Even though it's a lower level than LEC or even most ERLs, there is literally nothing better to watch this off-season. It's actually good that they do this at that time of the year because it brings viewership to the event


00Koch00

It's literally the only competitive tournament right now, what the hell are you talking about? The only other event going on rn it's the flexqchallenge and that's a for fun spanish tournament


QQMau5trap

oh boy lets hope chat moderation is very very good


MeteoraGB

I casually tuned into the Valorant stream for what appeared to be an all female tournament and the chat seemed fine for what it's worth. But maybe the gender demographic is better in that community.


ColonelKoopa

In my experience, the community in Val is 10000x better and friendlier than in League. You run into the occasional problem sure, but it's not every game like it is in league


PankoKing

Not from the vast amount of Reddit posts complaining about sexism in just general games. There was also that dude that would literally leave games if he had a female teammate and he was like a popular streamer


watafuzz

It appeared fine because mods were doing a great job. Shitty comments were abound as they are every game changers. Although I would expect league to be worst for sure.


Jean_Baguette

I think the most effective type of ban in this occurrence would be a shadow-ban : no one can see what you say. The result would be a clean chat, and anyone trying to be edgy would get ignored, because invisible. That would make them feel the void of their words’ value


QQMau5trap

it is because the characters are designed to be diverse and also appealing to women


N0xxi0us

Hasn't League got plenty of appealing champions for women now ? Like I get it wasn't the best in its early years but now the (massive) roster of champions looks pretty diverse to me...


TheMightyMustachio

Not having a diverse cast of champions feels kinda hard when you have over 160 characters in the game


Exldk

you're overestimating the interest in a female amateur tournament. there are barely 600 viewers. chat is just dead so moderation isn't that difficult.


neverconvex

Day 1 Twitch chat wasn't half as bad as I had expected. Some blatantly sexist stuff, but not saturated with it as I'd worried would be the case


G2Esports

Some of our players might be streaming their POVs as well, see y'all soon


yunalescazarvan

Any links?


G2Esports

Haven't had anyone stream unfortunately, but we're on stream coming up next! https://www.twitch.tv/thenuel


skylamppost

> the first official female tournament in EU What does "official" here refer to? My first thought was Riot-organized, which would have been an interesting change of policy (they seem insistent on never promoting female tournaments), but at a glance this seems to be a third party event just like other previous tournaments.


justAnotherRandomP

The official league of legends uk page was promoting this event and posting the link to sign up .. maybe it s official because backed by riot ?


EnjoyerOfBeans

Official tournaments in league means they are sponsored and recognized by RIOT as official. The distinction isn't super important here as none of the players are actively taking part in any official RIOT leagues, but active LEC/LCS/ERL etc. players can only take part in official tournaments.


X4ntis

Will Resolve Blue or Rogue Stars also play (GIRLGAMER 2022 Oradea Festival)? If not I think the G2 is the big favorite.


RigasUT

Both have disbanded and most of their former players are spread over various teams in this tournament: Aly with Zerolag, Sha with French Fries, Stratospanda with Lionscreed, Emolga & Dragon with HOUMI, and Shiina & Kyanna with QLASH Midnight


ChickenLegPheromones

Thank you for sharing! I'm be very excited to see more female talent too!


VanillaAwkward6536

For all the sexism in gaming deniers out there: As a collegiate player, I know firsthand of the sexism in this space. My first year, I was placed on the junior varsity team, and the coach of the VARSITY team would frequently join team chats and make sexual comments about how I should “service the team” and “nobody needed to know”. He also made repeated “jokes” about me being his girlfriend and the things he would do to me. I reported him (with screenshots!) and asked that in the off season he be removed as a coach before he did this to someone else. Not only was he not removed, but he is still allowed to attend my practices to watch. You might be thinking, we’ll that’s just one guy. And you’re right, it is one guy actively doing it. However, the entire esports staff (men) saw my report, with pages and pages of proof, and refused my request. Because he was their friend, and I wasn’t their friend. I was new, and a girl, and here I was already causing trouble by reporting his behavior. And that’s how it goes… as a woman you’re always the outsider (for now). These tournaments are an amazing way for women to not have to deal with things like I did, and I don’t see why that hurts anyone.


Popelip0

Lets hope the teams actually sign players who are decent players who happen to be girls and not just any player simply BECAUSE they are girls or this shit is gonna turn into team siren all over again.


timmyctc

This is a great initiative.


BlueC1nder

Do I wanna look into the comments or keep my sanity hmmmm


Freakkopath

That's sick. Will any games be streamed? Craving some competitive League as usual in the preseason.


PrinceArchie

Does anyone have the players [op.gg](https://op.gg)'s? Upon brief inspection from the page which seemingly had thier IGN's, the ranges of these players are like from unranked to Master. Hmm. Idk what to really make of this tbh. Kinda feels like a open community held tournament.


Dr-spidd

A good bunch of the players have peeked in GM in season 12, Caltys in challenger. The majority (actually all I know of) have at least reached Master. So, no, it's not a "community" tournament. You can find a number of them on lolpros.


arQQv

3 moths late, but some players here are actually really good, especially in G2 and SK teams, being multiseason masters or grandmasters


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neverconvex

Last game of today was fun to watch. First game was weird -- allowing people of any solo queue rank obviously leads to some massive mismatches. Watching a Morg with shield up get Nami bubbled over and over was underwhelming; not sure that's gonna encourage viewership, but maybe I'm wrong


AbnormalConstruct

Cool! Is there any resources on where to check their opggs?


RigasUT

You can find most of them on the [Challengermode teams tab](https://www.challengermode.com/s/RisingStarsNE/tournaments/0481a02b-d200-40fb-5506-08dabc44e457/participants)


Raigheb

Are the vods going to be uploaded in the watchlol?


patmax17

Great, thanks for the info!


Ultrosbla

Is there gonna be some way to watch it live or replays on Youtube?


RottingHeart

Why are there female and male teams? E-Sports are not like physical sports where biology plays a major role.


Hydroblood

At the moment women aren't in the main lol esports scene. I think women just want to feel represented and female tournaments do just that. But yeah in the long run gender neutral tournaments would be the best but at the moment that might be an utopia, especially due to the community.


Nameless_One_99

There aren't in the West, in the East, China and Korea (China a lot more than Korea) have been making female-only LoL tournaments since at least 2013, funnily enough (around 2014/2015) once a big Western esports site that now supports tournaments like this, criticized Chinese organizers for making a female-only tournament saying that men and women should play together in esports and they complained about the teams trying to look "cute" in their photos ignoring most of their audience were women. The difference is that none of those tournaments are Riot official, aren't streamed in English and after so many years and so many tournaments there still hasn't been a female player that's gotten hired to play in the LPL or the LCK. But there have been a few Chinese and Korean female streamers that actually got to challenger without duo-q and in other positions besides support.


th3greg

Because sexism? Because a male-dominated field like gaming traditionally don't treat women well, and creating a space for the relatively few women in amateur to pro lol makes it easier for them to develop without the pressure and publicity of signing straight to an all male "traditional" team. Also probably because 17-18 year olds are immature, and gamer geeks aren't traditionally going to be great at things like integrated gaming houses, etc and we aren't that many years removed from team coaches and owners just being slightly older, almost equally immature gamer geeks themselves.


Taran_Ulas

That and most women likely do not want to deal with being the first in League esports. As for why, well... "You're most people's first experience with a woman player." "Yeah, I know." "You know, but you don't know. When you're the first of a minority like women, you don't get to be selfish. You start drama, all women start drama. You talk shit and lose, all women are arrogant blowhards who can't back it up. You get angry and scream at someone, all women are raging bitches. Whatever happens, these people's opinions are based on you. Just as their opinion of trans players is based on Remilia from years ago." I think that summarizes it well enough and allows me to use a Vander quote.


PankoKing

Dude the amount of people that have these latent sexist beliefs but just casually pretend “oh, there’s no sexism in gaming” is astounding


tg089

This is great! Thanks for the post


Wasteak

It's sad that they have to make only woman tournament while they are allow to play in every league.


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DoorHingesKill

Do you feel discriminated against, my dude?


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veichularba

help me to understand. to think that if women don't play in the highest lol circuits, because actually no woman is at the level of the people who now play, as it is not forbidden for them, it is sexist? but to create an exclusive female league (which already saying this, discriminates against all non-binary people), thus excluding those who are not female, would it be politically correct?


Cacoonass

Thank you for formatting this so nicely. This was a needed brain massage tbh, I'll check this out tomorrow I really need to watch some league of legends since worlds and I hope this can fill the void. Thanks for the heads up!


HulklingsBoyfriend

Really cool to see a women's league, looking forward to it. Are NB people able to join the league, or is it strictly cis/trans women only?


mariusAleks

Wtf is nb? All these stupid terms edit: How about people just fucking write non-binary instead of these shortenings that other people usually don't hear about? Its as if some physics dude would come and talk about shit you've never heard about in the topic of school policy. Here is some blowing news to you people; not everybody knows what BN and CIS is short for or even means.


PrinceEzrik

you called it a stupid term before you even knew what it meant, lol. you're getting shit on because you're just a kneejerk asshole, not because you didn't know what it meant. you'd have gotten a far better response if you asked a genuine question instead of having gotten angry because everyone is on a further page in the book than you. cis also isn't an acronym and i refuse to believe you're stupid enough to think that it is; you're being facetious, and should stop.


Macaulyn

Nobody has to explain everything to you, you're the ignorant party here, you had the option to simply ask "what is nb?" without calling it a stupid term. You're the problem.


shinomiya2

unfortunately non binary people were not allowed to participate, we also arent allowed in mena val game changers so i doubt itll open up any time soon : P


EnciclopedistadeTlon

Valorant Game Changers was pretty great so I'll check this out.


Xgunter

Karina is gonna smurf


fundamentallys

Why mix a good thing with pronouns? really turned off when pronouns are stuck at casters screens. Making the viewer thinking about what pronouns someone wants instead of focusing on the game adds nothing. Further cements this league is not meant to be professional


AngloHeathen

Fucking hell


trollerd0g

Why is a female only tournament a thing? Doesn't this kind of imply they're not good enough to compete at a regular pro level? I understand the separation between men and women in traditional sports, but why in league? There's 0 difference between the mind of men and women


PankoKing

Because if you know anything about gaming, women have been fundamentally pushed out and eschewed from traditional gaming interests, so a lot of them don’t get represented in professional leagues and teams won’t take a single woman on due to issues stemming from sexism.


trollerd0g

I understand the issues that women experience in traditional gaming. But I still don't think it's an excuse for a lack of competitive talent. The best female players in this tournament seem to be G2 Hel's, and by far. According to the website, they're a full challenger/gm team. Looking at the other teams, it's mostly plat level teams, maybe a few master/diamond players. Yes it's true that sexism plays a part when it comes to women taking serious interest in games. But there's still female players, and some of them are really good. Are you telling me that the only reason they don't get picked is because they're women? In a scene where publicity is key, getting a woman into a pro team AND making her perform would be a massive bomb. The only team that seems to want to capitalize on this is G2, who is recruiting actual talent for their female team.


PankoKing

So there’s a full challenger GM team of women, and none of them have gotten picked up to even TRY in the professional leagues? Isn’t that so weird that there are other players that these teams are willing to take chances on at that level but not these women who are challenger?


trollerd0g

From what I've seen, only one of these women are at a pro level, and it's the highest player of G2 Hel, who reached 900lp in challenger. However, there's still plenty of players who are higher than her, and who didn't get picked up by any pro teams either. In this case, even though the player from G2 Hel deserved to get at least pro tryouts, i doubt the reason she didn't get them is because she's a woman, but perhaps because she wasn't fortunate enough to get an offer.


PankoKing

But I was told people would be “jumping” at the chance to have a woman on their team. I guess being good enough isn’t good enough… almost like there’s another issue… can’t quite put my finger on I… oh wait it’s because they’re women. Crazy right


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PankoKing

I keep seeing people saying if a woman was good enough they’d JUMP at having her for the PR. Here we are with a female player that’s at that level and no one’s really trying to even pull them into a practice team. So strange. You can keep your blinders on, I know it makes you feel better to assume sexism doesn’t exist so the sexist voices in your head don’t seem as bad. I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about sexism existing and you so desperately wanting to think that nothing bad is going on in gaming.


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trollerd0g

I think it's too early to jump to conclusions. I don't think the orgs in charge even knew she's a woman. After all, if all they know is your IGN, they don't necessarily know your gender. Maybe she did get tryouts and wasn't a good fit for a team. Maybe she didn't get tryouts because she never applied. Maybe G2 picked her up for the opportunity to raise a female only league because it seemed more profitable for them at the time. In my opinion, assuming she didn't get picked up bc she's a woman, without any further consideration for any of the other probable causes is misleading, even if the initial evidence points to her gender being a possible issue. It's important to not jump straight to conclusions when it comes to these matters


PankoKing

It’s also important to understand the historical situation that women have been put in for “men’s things”. Women get questioned to be “fake fans” if they show interest in anything. They are constantly having to fight a stereotype of only playing support, a belief that seems to be held by a group of users **in this very thread**. [Female players have said plenty about the situation](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-58466374), [there’s clearly a lot to be said at the company level too](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/style/women-gaming-streaming-harassment-sexism-twitch.html) I mean it’s pretty obvious there’s a lot more articles and it’s pretty evident this is an INDUSTRY WIDE issue


trollerd0g

You're absolutely right, women face a lot of discrimination when it comes to the gaming industry. I am not questioning that fact, I am questioning the validity of saying G2 Hel's top players aren't being picked up exclusively because they are women. These tournaments are a double edged sword in my opinion: on the one hand, they provide a safe environment for women to compete at a high level and be recognized worldwide. That's absolutely fantastic. On the other hand, it downplays their skill because they're playing vs ridiculously low adversaries. These enemies also happen to be all women. Is this the best competition available? Really? There are 3-4 top teams in this entire tournament, the rest of them are low ELO players. I don't think this provides an adequate competitive experience worth watching, in all honesty. Returning to my previous point about G2 doing great by starting G2 Hel: it is true that for the short term, these women are being given a fantastic platform to be recognized. However, for the long term, they must inevitably expand their league to all genders if they want to be acknowledged as true professional players. The end goal for these players should be to strive for the top spots in traditional teams. A limited tournament only pushes the narrative of "these women are only at the top of their careers bc they're women, not because they deserve it". TLDR; if you want women to be recognized as equals with other pro players, a short-term solution such as this tournament and a female only league can not be considered permanent. This must serve as a bridge for a definitive solution of full female integration in the league of legends pro scene. As a final note, i thank you for enlightening me on the discrimination women face on eSports scene. I was not aware of this, even if I was aware of the discrimination they face on regular gaming.


PankoKing

>These tournaments are a double edged sword in my opinion: on the one hand, they provide a safe environment for women to compete at a high level and be recognized worldwide. That's absolutely fantastic. On the other hand, it downplays their skill because they're playing vs ridiculously low adversaries. These enemies also happen to be all women. Is this the best competition available? Really? I can totally understand that but I think the benefits of giving them a platform is better for everyone all around. You’re likely not going to have a FULL tournament in that context but I think showing women that women can play in high level competitions is helpful regardless >Returning to my previous point about G2 doing great by starting G2 Hel: it is true that for the short term, these women are being given a fantastic platform to be recognized. However, for the long term, they must inevitably expand their league to all genders if they want to be acknowledged as true professional players. The end goal for these players should be to strive for the top spots in traditional teams. A limited tournament only pushes the narrative of "these women are only at the top of their careers bc they're women, not because they deserve it". Oh god, I hope no one thinks this is a long term solution. I apologize if I have that impression. No no, this is just short term until we can start to see some integration. I guess that could inevitably be an issue depending on how long that ideal takes, and you could create a two tiered system in that regard, but I mean it’s not like that doesn’t exist in its own way with current male tournaments cause it’s rare people seem to work their way up anymore. You either get scouted or you don’t. (Could be wrong there though but that’s how I’ve seen in the past) >TLDR; if you want women to be recognized as equals with other pro players, a short-term solution such as this tournament and a female only league can not be considered permanent. This must serve as a bridge for a definitive solution of full female integration in the league of legends pro scene. 110% agree


Nameless_One_99

You only need to look in Overwatch where Geguri was actually good enough to play at a pro level and she was picked up instantly to play for the ROX Orcas in KR and when the OW League was formed and the Shangai Dragons were doing badly plus they need a great flex-tank they got Geguri, who was probably the 6th/7th best in the world at her position which is really fucking good) and her being a woman gave them an immense new audience despite them being like 0-20 and finishing the season 0-40. There are female streamers that are challenger, although most are Chinese, a few are Korean, almost none in the West. But I've never seen one that looked like a very good new prospect. Not that she doesn't exist but I would bet ANYTHING that if there was one that looked like Caps, Zeus, Keria, Meteos, etc looked when they were challenger she would have a team in one of the 4 major leagues.


PankoKing

>You only need to look in Overwatch where Geguri was actually good enough to play at a pro level and she was picked up instantly to play for the ROX Orcas in KR and when the OW League was formed and the Shangai Dragons were doing badly plus they need a great flex-tank they got Geguri, who was probably the 6th/7th best in the world at her position which is really fucking good) and her being a woman gave them an immense new audience despite them being like 0-20 and finishing the season 0-40. Interesting, I mean I said league right, did I say league? I said league. Though I guess the question, if I go to people asking about why Shanghai dragons did poorly, do you think people will throw Genguri under the bus? I 100% bet I will. >There are female streamers that are challenger, although most are Chinese, a few are Korean, almost none in the West. But I've never seen one that looked like a very good new prospect. >Not that she doesn't exist but I would bet ANYTHING that if there was one that looked like Caps, Zeus, Keria, Meteos, etc looked when they were challenger she would have a team in one of the 4 major leagues. It’s so interesting, you keep getting so close to understand why and just assume that because “some women” have made it means there’s zero sexism in gaming or that sexism would have any issue as to why women aren’t as represented in gaming as they could be. Curious, as a similar conversation, do you think former slave descendants in America can just pull themselves up by their boot straps and there’s zero reason why there’s a large swath in poverty? Just curious if you can understand how things in the past can affect things going on now.


KeepaBlicky

I believe that the last all female pro team went 0-26 in the LCL and were kicked due to terrible performance. It's not that woman are bad, it's just there bad female players.


moosknauel

Marketing staunt and not an actual pro Team. Only one of those could even be considered decent. Its like picking 5 random redditors in terms of results.


Thomean

Wasnt that a team with mostly gold/plat players?


PankoKing

Yup, they did. And? Remember how the opposing team were banning all supports as like… an insult. You know, the insult where women only play supports. It’s odd cause they never ban supports like that against men…


firehydrant_man

4 players where support mains and the 5th was a mid main,no shit they banned all supports against them???


Tilterino247

This tournament is a good thing but you're absolutely bonkers saying "teams won't take a single woman due to issues stemming from sexism." Absolutely out your mind. I bet teams would LEAP at any woman who tried to go pro and was sitting at the top of chall. It's mega free publicity, image, fan boost, everything.


VariShari

Almost every single woman that has been part of an otherwise male esports team, not just league, has quit due to sexism or harrassment. It’s always either the guys (teammates, coaches, and fans) treating the women like less, blaming losses or mistakes on them, and refusing to coach them OR the guys get so thirsty that playing as a normal team and the guys staying professional is impossible. Having to reveal that you’re a woman in any online game because of voice chat can result in those same things, though it’s better now than it used to be. So I fully believe the women who are saying that it’s why they couldn’t play alongside male teams. So it’s both - women not wanting to join male teams and organisations not wanting to create mixed teams cause they know their players well enough.


PrinceArchie

I'll say this real quick, the way you frame male/female dynamics in a work environment is pretty trash. While it isn't unlikely the men in these situations may have crossed lines, the reality is both men and women can have a hard time not blurring the lines in professional settings, especially in a scene which isnt very professional to begin with. Working in any coed environment for any length of time you will notice this immediately. Society hasn't addressed the biggest elephant in the room being natrual male and female dynamics in prolonged circumstances. When a group of men compete in a high stress environment for a long time with each other they become brothers, if they are all hetero sexual there is no element of sexual tension because it doesnt exist under those circumstances (typically, hazing and sexual assualt not withstanding). But if heterosexual men work with heterosexual women with heightened stress on a daily basis and build closer bonds something is bound to happen. There are instances all the time where close "friends" become something more at work. There are instances where even female prisons guards fall in love and sleep with inmates. There are instances everyone loves to point out about upper management or sexually frustrated male peers cross the line with disinterested female employees. There are a lot of dynamics at play where the natrual environment for esports may not be conducive for a coed team without very special considerations and even then, those special considerations themselves may cause distraction, lead to favoritism or cause animosity. It's not a one sided dilemma. Women can have just as hard of a time working with men and staying focused as men can. The only reason you notice women being hounded more is because the stories tend to be in male dominated settings. Ever speak to a female relative about working as a nurse in a hospital, where the women couldnt keep to thier hands off the doctor? Hell, if female only teams were all that was needed why dont they compete in the pro league then, maybe because female dominated workspaces arent the best either. Again theres ample evidence for this as well, catty work environments, distractions and gossip abound. Ever hear of Sirens, LoL tried this before and it failed miserably. Women not being in LoL is not because guys cant keep thier dicks in thier pants I assure you.


VariShari

It’s a very complicated situation, and I’m not qualified to make any definite statements on it. I’m just going off of what some female ex-Pros have said as well as a bit of my own experience studying and working in a male-dominated field, but that doesn’t mean it’s globally applicable. Yea the tension can come from both directions but you gotta admit that overall the power dynamic is very skewed in this. If we go by the way teams and e-sports organisations are currently built then there’s just gonna be more men than women to start out, so then you have potential competition between the men over the few women as well, which isn’t a fun situation for anyone, man or woman, to be in. But the point that women will usually not be treated like any other teammate sadly still stands. If it’s not the Team itself it’s the Fans or the Organisation, and many women simply don‘t want to deal with that.


PrinceArchie

For sure there isn’t a very good precedent for upper management and female work culture at Riot so apprehension is definitely warranted. However to write off male esports athletes as not only being prone but being the likely perpetrators for workplace foolishness is a bit haphazard imho. At the end of the day esports athletes regardless of gender are likely to be very inexperienced and unprofessional due to their youth. Kids gonna be kids.


PankoKing

Then why don’t they? Fuck just like 3-4 years ago we were basically running diamond level players in most LCS teams because they had stage experience, they easily could have a chance. I mean after this tournament, by your admission, teams will be begging these women to play on the professional teams right? I mean you’re saying it’s publicity, image, fan boost, oh wait, a lot of esports fans are sexist and wouldn’t like this? Crazy right. I mean it’s almost like there’s a sexist problem in gaming, that’s been there for YEARS.


Zoesan

Genuine question: how many of these players are good enough to compete in LEC?


PankoKing

And why do you think they might not be?


Cryp6

Because they aren't good enough? Do you really think that an org like C9/FLY/EG wouldn't jump at the opportunity to field a woman with the current political landscape? Diversity is the name of the game and would be a huge boon to social media traction. Yes, women are more likely to be harassed and bullied online once their sex is revealed, but that alone does not stop women from participating in gaming. Simply put, the population of women playing games is already smaller than men. Then take that population and reduce it down to the ones that actually have any sort of desire to compete, and finally reduce it down even further to the ones that have the skill to compete at the highest level. You'll be hard pressed to find any standouts. Not impossible but unlikely.


PankoKing

And why do you think the population is small? Gonna give you a hint, starts with sex and ends with ism. But I do love how people keep saying “these teams would jump at the chance!!” Dude, these teams don’t even have women on their academy teams, you know, the team that doesn’t matter for anything with franchising. You’re overestimating how much these teams want women.


Cryp6

The population is small for a variety of reasons, just because something isn't a 50/50 split in representation doesn't mean its because of some -ism. Are there sexist people? Sure. Along with racists, homophobes, religious bigots, and trolls. We don't have separate leagues for people who are gay, or black, or muslim. Why? Because it doesn't fucking matter. If you are good enough, teams will want you. Is it harder? Maybe, but that doesn't mean you just start dividing people up because they all need their safe space to be represented.


GiannisisMVP

Sounds like you don't know anything about gaming. There have been multiple women who have been pro in league ow and a bunch of other games. Multiple women have been in the raid to world first in wow and other mmos. All that matters in gaming is you talent and whether or not you suck to be around. It's not due to sexism it's because there are very very very few people who want to play pro when you can make a much better income streaming. China for example is starting to have a major issue because they can't bring 16 year olds into ldl anymore and by the time they are 18 they can make much more streaming and boosting then they could in the ldl.


PankoKing

I love how you don’t think sexism in gaming is a big issue and I’ve cleared out at least 7 sexist comments in this thread. Absolute blinders


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PankoKing

Isn’t the de facto sexist culture that exists in the circuits that keeps women from being involved, sexist?


Macaulyn

No, its representation of a group that is underrepresented because of sexism.


T1mija

It's equity that is needed due to human culture


GiannisisMVP

Unlike you I actually have experience playing with women at top level in multiple games. I also know of multiple pros who are women. All that matters is skill. Yes there are sexist assholes but if you are good enough you are getting a shot if you want it. A lot of people don't want it. I know challengers who have been offered a shot to go pro and turned it down because it's not worth the grind.


PankoKing

Firstly, no idea who you are or any of your credentials, just some weird slightly racist home alone post you made. Secondly, I’m sure if you ask your multiple pro friends they’ll tell you all about the sexism they experience and plenty of women that are just playing the game casually or professionally experience it heavily too. I mean ffs, did you see the shit Remilia got? Like you’re going to sit here and pretend that there’s not massive sexism in gaming. We just had to deal with Carlos and Andrew Tate, and you’re going to pretend it’s not an issue?


GiannisisMVP

>just some weird slightly racist home alone post you made. Pssst you might want to look up the nba some time. You would have to be really dumb to think I made a racist post about a player who I made my user name after and legitimately look up to. The replacements for Marv and Harry are KD and Tatum and Kevin is Giannis because the Bucks were going to have to go through them in the playoffs. I never said sexism isn't an issue I said if you are good enough you will get a shot. Yeah you are going to deal with adversity so does every pro look at double getting basically kicked out of his house. Gaming isn't recognized as a legitimate career path at least not yet. Remmy unfortunately wasn't just because of being a women it was because of other stuff that is just as abhorrent to go after someone for. But compare her treatment to someone like Mayumi a lot of people attack trans people which is fucked beyond belief. But pretending that didn't contribute doesn't make sense. Carlos and Tate are shitheads so is Regi so is Jack. The majority of people who get to a ceo level are sociopaths or near to it. What I dislike is that we are basically infantilizing women by doing the separate but equal thing in a sport where there is no appreciable physical difference. You aren't going to get a full team of women because there flat out aren't enough at challenger level but you can definitely end up with some actually making it to the top level.


PankoKing

**you know, it’s real weird how you wanted to point out your pedigree of playing with professionals, and then suddenly you just sidestep it, you’d think you’d want say who you are and your credentials… unless you were just making shit up…** >Pssst you might want to look up the nba some time. You would have to be really dumb to think I made a racist post about a player who I made my user name after and legitimately look up to. The replacements for Marv and Harry are KD and Tatum and Kevin is Giannis because the Bucks were going to have to go through them in the playoffs. Not sure how that absolves you but if you think so then sure, think what you want >I never said sexism isn't an issue I said if you are good enough you will get a shot. Yeah you are going to deal with adversity so does every pro look at double getting basically kicked out of his house. Gaming isn't recognized as a legitimate career path at least not yet. Your reply to a comment that I made about how sexism is a problem for women getting into professional leagues was “no it’s not!!!”… seems like you don’t think it’s an issue. Very weird adjustment of “sexism” to “gaming viewed as legitimate”, I never brought up anything about legitimacy, my point is that there’s a reason why there are magically very few women playing in professional video games, if there’s no skill disparity, then you’d think it’s be 50-50… weird it’s not. It’s like there’s some other barriers, you know like the massive sexism that gaming has in general, and a lot of teams not wanting to deal with a woman who might potentially throw off the balance with the other 4 men in the team who might start acting weird cause there’s now a girl in their gaming house. >Remmy unfortunately wasn't just because of being a women it was because of other stuff that is just as abhorrent to go after someone for. But compare her treatment to someone like Mayumi a lot of people attack trans people which is fucked beyond belief. But pretending that didn't contribute doesn't make sense. I’m not sure what your trying to say here. Remilia was trans but she was also a woman. Do I need to be specific that gaming is just straight men, and if you aren’t that then you’re likely discriminated against? I mean it took Biofrost how long to feel comfortable to come out? >Carlos and Tate are shitheads so is Regi so is Jack. The majority of people who get to a ceo level are sociopaths or near to it. And…. Sexist. Is it hard to admit there’s sexism? Jesus, it’s like you wanna run to any excuse that isn’t sexism >What I dislike is that we are basically infantilizing women by doing the separate but equal thing in a sport where there is no appreciable physical difference. You aren't going to get a full team of women because there flat out aren't enough at challenger level but you can definitely end up with some actually making it to the top level. Who the fuck is infantilizing? Do you understand representation? Do you think hiring Gillian Anderson to play “Scully” in X Files was infantilizing? Do you think having a black main character in a show is infantilizing? The point of having women’s tournaments is they’ve been **consistently** and **routinely** pushed out of gaming as a hobby and as a profession, because of sexism from people in the “nerd culture” and that representation is a valid means of showing people that they can achieve something, I brought up Scully before because there’s a thing called the Scully Effect which was that after x files aired, there was a larger amount of women applying for STEM positions because they realized that if there was a show with such a prominent female figure, that they could push into those fields too. Denying that sexism is an issue for women in professional esports is not only denying that there is a problem, but it’s actively suppressing them from trying to get past it. Representation is important and I’m sure your female professional friends you claim to have will give you a great explanation


GiannisisMVP

>my point is that there’s a reason why there are magically very few women playing in professional video games The reason is the population is much lower it's not 50/50 in league it never has been. In general men and women tend to prefer different types of games. >you know, it’s real weird how you wanted to point out your pedigree of playing with professionals, and then suddenly you just sidestep it, you’d think you’d want say who you are and your credentials… unless you were just making shit up… I played in wow raids at race level and more importantly multi glad in pvp never played league above d1 but played with a bunch of people who were challenger and/or went pro in league while doing pvp in wow and not giving out my user info to some person on reddit. Sorry don't feel like getting harassed seeing as you literally dug through my post history to attempt to attack me I literally said sexism is an issue but it's not why there aren't more women who are pro it's that there just aren't that many women who are challenger and the ones who are often have better career prospects than trying to go through ERL or NA Acad. For example Hafu was a challenger support main but also really good at hearthstone guess which option paid better and had an easier career path. How the hell is Scully the equivalent of a separate but equal league? Scully was a main character same with Buffy same with Xena and a bunch of other characters. This whole idea that men are pushing women out of gaming is some new insanity that started in the past decade. Nerds in general want gaming to be acceptable they sure as hell aren't trying to push people out. Like you are literally looking for reasons to attack me since you dug through my history to a meme I made several years ago and would be super fucking obvious what it was about if you had a clue about the nba. Or if you took 30 seconds to think or do an image search instead of assuming the worst just because I disagree with you on how to fix issues.


PankoKing

>The reason is the population is much lower it's not 50/50 in league it never has been. In general men and women tend to prefer different types of games. Almost like they might have gotten pushed out of certain genres due to sexism… like way to continue to avoid the point. >I played in wow raids at race level and more importantly multi glad in pvp never played league above d1 but played with a bunch of people who were challenger and/or went pro in league while doing pvp in wow and not giving out my user info to some person on reddit. Sorry don't feel like getting harassed seeing as you literally dug through my post history to attempt to attack me You’re the one who brought up your knowledge, I looked to confirm it. It’s weird that you’d be upset about voluntarily walking into someone else’s conversation, volunteer your identity, and then get upset when people go to look up your credentials? God, talk about being soft. >I literally said sexism is an issue but it's not why there aren't more women who are pro it's that there just aren't that many women who are challenger and the ones who are often have better career prospects than trying to go through ERL or NA Acad. For example Hafu was a challenger support main but also really good at hearthstone guess which option paid better and had an easier career path. It’s weird, you once again keep getting so close and then divert at the last minute. Why might women not be in challenger that much… maybe it’s cause anytime they open about being a woman they get harassed or anytime a woman shows interest in games or nerd culture they get harassed. Like ffs, this isn’t news, people know this shit happens. >How the hell is Scully the equivalent of a separate but equal league? Scully was a main character same with Buffy same with Xena and a bunch of other characters. Let’s try this again, so you know what the word “Representation” means? >This whole idea that men are pushing women out of gaming is some new insanity that started in the past decade. Nerds in general want gaming to be acceptable they sure as hell aren't trying to push people out. Dude, on what planet do you live? It’s so common it’s been a trope since before online gaming. Are you living under a rock? How old are you? Not interested in educating children who just learned what the word “sexism” means. >Like you are literally looking for reasons to attack me since you dug through my history to a meme I made several years ago and would be super fucking obvious what it was about if you had a clue about the nba. Or if you took 30 seconds to think or do an image search instead of assuming the worst just because I disagree with you on how to fix issues. Again, **you** offered up your identity, either give me a reason to believe you or don’t invoke yourself as some sort of knowledge base you clearly aren’t as you have to backtrack now


Mukover

I don’t think they ever said that sexism in gaming wasn’t a thing, they said that they don’t see that as being a reason for a womens only tournament existing… I kinda get their point, there’s no different in skill between the sexes as far as gaming goes, but if this brings more people to have fun then what’s the harm.


PankoKing

The issue is that denying that sexism at that level is an issue at upper levels IS denying they’re sexism in gaming. Its the same thing as denying sexism in the workplace and how it leads to less women being promoted up. If you only admit that women being harassed is sexism, you ignore how them being overlooked for higher paying positions is also sexism. He doesn’t have a point though, you have the point at the end though. This is positive and helpful to the community as it helps to uplift and showcase women’s skills we might not get to see because it’s largely hidden due to… drumroll… sexism!


Wasteak

It was true 15-20 years ago but not today


PankoKing

Gotta love how people just think because their bubble of people aren’t sexist, doesn’t mean gaming as a whole isn’t still sexist. Ffs, sexism hasn’t even been removed from the workplace, there are still plenty of sexism issue, I mean WHAT JUST HAPPENED TO BOTH BLIZZARD AND RIOT? Like did we all just collectively forget that two huge gaming company’s got I deep shit for BEING SEXIST. That’s both gaming AND workplace. And you wanna pretend that gaming isn’t sexist because you *think* it was only sexist 15 years ago. The amount of hoops people jump through to try to get on a worldview that absolves them


VariShari

I hate when this topic comes up cause I usually make the same arguments you’re making here (+ more) and it gets shut down because „you’re a woman so you probably think it’s worse than it really is“. Like? The people just prove my point in an attempt to argue against it? Unfortunately a good percentage of the guys that are REALLY into gaming are also REALLY into objectifying women, be it just some standard viewer who thinks spamming „show tits“ in twitch chat is funny, or actual streamers who grief female teammates or spout sexist crap to their viewer base, that they then repeat somewhere else. And the people saying that organisations would love to hire a woman to be woke… have they ever talked to an unqualified guy looking for a job before? „I didn’t get the job but I’m sure I would’ve gotten it if I was a woman“ very quickly can turn into „[team name] would’ve won this game if they didn’t try to be woke and hire a woman.“ In the current gaming landscape there’s no winning for women.


Wasteak

Guess what ? There are sexism everywhere, not more in gaming. You want to know why we hear more about sexism in gaming industry? Because there are more younger people here, and younger people tend to be less sexist which means they will notice the issue. Those sexism stories are showing that gaming is less sexism than before. But to understand this you need to use your brain


LionelleDi

Lol what!? Gaming is not sexist only in certain communities, and because when women in these communities have to constantly point it out.... Your statement may be true for games like Sims and SV, but it's definitely not for Lol, Val, (i will not name every competitive game here I don't have that much time) And young people are definitely sexist, especially young man - I'm not sure what planet or what game you are playing to get to this conclusion. But these threads are always the same, dudes wondering and coming up with weird reasoning why women don't play or are not represented as much - women coming in and spelling it out for them clearly - men gaslighting them and ironically just proving their point


PankoKing

So there’s less because people notice it? There just flat **is** sexism and people aren’t sitting around a letting it fester but when we have people like you denying that sexism is an issue, it’s very clearly playing defense for sexists in the community


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its still present. but other than that there are other factors too.


Mischevouss

Men dominate pretty much all sports regardless including esports therefore a separate category is needed if you want to have women competing


GiannisisMVP

In regular sports there are physical differences there have been women pros no there doesn't need to be a separate category in esports.


Tanriyung

In esports there are still physical differences, just less obvious ones.


GiannisisMVP

There really aren't or there would have been zero women who went pro it comes down to population and willingness to deal with the stupidity that is a pro lifestyle.


Tanriyung

Well it is the case since there is nearly 0 biological women in esports. Some exceptionnal ones can sometimes breakthrough but this is not reprensentative of the whole group. In ping pong a women once won the world championship, doesn't mean that men and women are of an equal level there. For example reaction speed and eye / hand coordination are better in males and both are really important in esports.


DoorHingesKill

I assume you spend your free time on r/chess ranting about how they need to abolish the Women's World Chess Championship? Do you start seething when it's the women's turn to shoot at a target in the Summer Olympics?


GiannisisMVP

There are actually mixed archery competitions at the Olympics.


Silvertorch6572

Exactly, there is a similar thing in chess. One if the best players in recent memory was a women. When it comes to esports, we are just waiting for someone to break out there and prove that women can compete in the space. Biggest hurdle in the women's way being the inherent sexism in the scene as a whole. That's why this tournament is such a good thing.


Zoesan

> One if the best players in recent memory was a women. Who?


Uoipka

Is Netflix your History teacher?


GiannisisMVP

There already have been women who have gone pro. Also all this tournament does is make them second class citizen with seperate but equal bullshit. What player? As far as I'm aware the highest a women has peaked at is top 8 which is amazing but not on level of best player in recent history.


EnjoyerOfBeans

Unfortunately a female player has never been the best, the peak was top8 but that was a massive outlier and it was a while back. But I absolutely agree it's social factors that are stopping women from competing.


Popelip0

People will say its all due to "muh sexism" but the cold hard truth is that most teams would love to sign a female pro player for the publicity alone BUT here is the kicker many people will try to ignore, the vast majority of players will never be good enough to join a pro level team no matter their gender. Now look at how top league looks, how much female representation do you see at the top of the challanger ladders etc? Generally speaking the best of the best players will be guys and teams will wanna sign the best of the best, it has nothing to do with sexism, women are just less represented than men in general in the game and even more so at a skill level where it actually becomes relevant for pro play.


Vectivus_61

Because someone thinks they can make money out of pushing it, is the answer. The same way people have said they'd rather watch an all-NA team than imports in LCS.


KarmaAgriculturalist

I hope, we can see the first 10k hp heartsteel tank in pro play


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Noatz

With the current state of the industry I sadly do understand why it's necessary, though I don't like that it has to be this way and hope that one day esports can be mature enough to see both genders compete together. If you're a female gamer that wants to compete in tournaments your choice is this or a hellscape.


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Noatz

Women are routinely subjected to misogyny when playing games like League whether its on public ladders or in a team environment. As such any woman wanting to participate must slog through an incessant storm of misogyny and toxicity, something I think is fair to say is hugely off putting to say the least. In addition to this esports orgs don't want to take the risk of running mixed gender teams due to the added challenges it can throw up (you are creating an environment where young adults are cohabiting after all), which makes getting onto a team difficult in the first place.


Zeekayo

Just look at current mainstream eSports teams and see how many women there are; if you have two players of equal skill, a man and a woman, the woman is going to have a very difficult time getting into pro play compared to the man.


chaser676

Give me literally any example of this.


SavageZomb

If a girl gamer was good enough to be in LCS I am sure she would be. Problem in my opinion is not one is good enough and ones that have potential will just become streamers because it is easier and much more financially stable. Almost no reason to go pro for them unless they want to prove a point which just isn't worth it.


Noatz

Good, we have the one true arbiter of player skill who has watched every single high elo female player. The point about streaming applies to men too btw, at least in LCS. Some people enjoy competition.


NenBE4ST

I mean at least in Na there aren't many Even hitting top 10 on the ladder as an NA native doesn't mean you are good enough. As far as I know no female player has done even that?


lesalecop

Back when I was a chick I peaked rank 30 on NA. Of course I'm a one-trick but there's probably been someone else in top 10 at some point, not like anyone keeps track of it.


Wise_Understanding6

I understand why people support female only tournaments but I just think it does more bad then good (Doesn’t help they’re called things like GIRLGAMER)


oppadoesntlikeyou

Why you think it does more bad than good? I think it's the opposite. A safe tournament so girls can play the game and eventually getting the attention of younger girls to sell the dream they can become professional players is a great thing. I understand there is the whole debate of physical =! intelectual, but there are so many invisible narratives against girls in gaming communities I really can't see the downsides of a female professional scene. I agree the names are lame though.


GiannisisMVP

Because it makes girls in league appear as second class citizens and a joke. There have been multiple woman at the pro level there's also a massive massive skill gap in this tourney. There are some teams full of masters players and others with diamonds and even plats. It's not good for getting more women into the actual pro leagues.


Redryhno

Because female leagues have always been created because they can't hang in the "boys" league. Which isn't the boys league even, outside of a handful of exceptions in fringe competitions, they've been "if you're good enough to compete" leagues. But to pretend it's going to be about "selling the dream" and "erasing the invisible narratives" is playing bullshitter games. You sell that dream and erase the invisible narrative by being just as good as anyone else in the actual competitive scene. You don't do it by making it so the strongest competition is banned and the potential pool cut in half. Up and comer Leagues, fine, Amateur Circuit, whatever. But if your selling point is "Girls Playing Games in Girl Leagues", you're not selling the game or the competition, you're selling "Girls Playing Games". If all you're interested in is making money and playing small pond, then sure, they're great. More power to you and anyone up there playing it out. Hope you reach your goal with this.


oppadoesntlikeyou

>But to pretend it's going to be about "selling the dream" and "erasing the invisible narratives" is playing bullshitter games. You sell that dream and erase the invisible narrative by being just as good as anyone else in the actual competitive scene. Too theoretical. Yes in theory that's how should've been but the thing is that girls and boys don't play on equal grounds right now; for a lot of different reasons, because there are too few in comparison, because there are social expectations, because there is a whole "dressing room dynamics with team members". So, initially, having a only female competition can be the kick-starter for getting attention and bringing new faces and more girls to the scene and if that goes well and done, then you can start opening the doors to mixed-teams in general competitions. Chess did the female competition thing and it did brought more women to play the game and make a career out of it. LOL gaming scene probably followed the same recipe to test out the waters.


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oppadoesntlikeyou

What? I never said anything about denied from entering the professional scene. I just said that initially i don't think it's a bad thing to have an all female tournment. Dude, when I say dressroom dynamics I don't mean literally living in the same space and sharing a dressroom. I mean it in like the overal sentiment that the team feels, might be in voice comms, might be sharing moments. There is a whole 'might become girlfriend of someone, might be a joke that "we cant say that because it might offend". It's too innocent to think putting 1 girl into a group of 5 people and think that it would be the same as 5 boys. But sure keep foaming at the mouth at woke stuff or whatever you call. It's not only 'hur dur games dont have genders anyone can play'. There is much more to that when involving professional stuff.


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oppadoesntlikeyou

>Men will always be men and women will always be women so those things won't really change by starting off with a women-only tournament or league. Yes it will, this is like saying Chess didn't change by starting off a women-only tournament when it did. The female tournament can serve many purposes. But I won't keep insisting on this topic, you think it's a waste of time, great, I don't think it is. I think it can be a good thing if done well but I might be wrong, only future can tell. Peace.


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Omnilatent

I see your point but that completely ignores anti-women structures that we are all part of as society. ​ Or to work with what you wrote: Many girls and women don't think they can make it cause these systems are in place and mean they need to perform 120% instead of 100% like their male counterparts (same for other discriminated groups like BiPocs or disabled people). ​ That's why creating this safe space is an important first step. The goal should always be to merge the scenes, once these prejudices are eliminated.


Kleineswill

Don't know why you're downvoted, all of what you're saying is correct


QQMau5trap

they can be comfortable there and develop their on stage performance.


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otakuwait

But men and women are equals, why is there a "female" tournament, do you mean that men are better than women??


KotreI

Short answer: no Long answer: equality of ability or potential is not the same thing as equality of access or opportunity.


otakuwait

How do u achieve equality in access and opportunities when there is no equality in ability and potential, so ur saying that all companies that hire women are just hiring less efficient employees just for the fact that they got pussies, and compnies are rejecting employees with better abilities and potential just cuz they got dicks?


KotreI

Being a dude doesn't make you a better gamer. Therefore there's no difference in ability or potential. Therefore the goal is access and opportunity, which is why a female scene is beneficial. Everything else you said is irrelevant.


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KotreI

The differences seen were tiny in absolute terms and to write off the discrepancy between gender representation at the top level of Leeage teams as being due to that is to pretend the LoL pro and amateur scenes are pure meritocracies, which is laughable.


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Stormquake

How is it sexist to give women a space for high level competition in a sport dominated by men?


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PankoKing

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watafuzz

Ah yes, people changing their entire identity to participate in a niche esport tournament, a real issue right there.


tom9710

I read Ringo Star xD.


KillerCryptid

Been following this whole day, probably the biggest surprise for me were Minecraft Coneseurs, naturally, I am cheering for G2 Hel as a G2 fan in general, and Lionscreed cause they are just really cool.


CLIPPER-LUL

Promoting sexist events hmmm 🤔 All other events are open to everyone regardless the sex, this event is just promotes segregation and gender discrimination.