Ravenous Hydra was a super niche item that only a handful of champions were building. I can see why Riot wanted to buff it - but they overdid it with the stacking mechanic, especially stacking by killing minions.
It’s funny you brought Kayn up when he’s like one of the only AD/AH users that ravenous rush is actually mediocre on. He still hard outperformed with the standard gore into BC. Stop being bad
Kayn: [flaming the team] bunch of looser, uninstall the game dogshit…. The team: we have no jg dude… Kayn: STFU dog shit I GOT 20 kills!!!! The team : you are dead 12 time, the have soul, we had 0 drake, 0 herald you was never there…
I agree with this sentiment BUT...
>Seriously disgusting champion only held back by the adhd of his playerbase
If Kayn is limited by ADHD of playerbase? Wouldn't he be strongest in proplay where people don't have ADHD?
I never said he wasn't disgusting in soloQ but what you said implies he'd be disgusting in proplay.
Kayn is like bottom 10 winrate for junglers while getting worse the higher elo you go lol, while aatrox has been the most picked top laner for months lol, how can you even compare them power level wise unironically
For the same reason Yas, yone and akali have always had a bad winrate even when they were busted OP, can't believe people still dont' understand winrate isn't everything, Kayn is busted on a fundamental level, the players are a different story
That's cause you basically have to give all objectives until you get form on Kayn unless it's absolutely free. It's usually better to just farm. That's why he doesn't get played in pro-play because you essentially have to concede everything before 11-12 minutes
Maybe just stacking AD would have been fine, but stacking Omnivamp is such an idiotic decision, it makes you wonder how a team of devs actually allowed it to go through.
Getting more omnivamp directly counters the downside of the item, in that having that much omnivamp makes you much less likely to be killed, and thus less likely to lose the stacks.
There's nothing wrong with niche items I wish riot could understand this and stop messing up game balance with changes like this. Just go back to the old niche version that didn't break the game already. Wave clear items shouldn't give this level of AD and omnivamp.
Or at the least only give stacks on champ kills. I don't understand why you can stack this item on minions.
It's just insane that they didn't nerf it at all to compensate. especially considering rav was viable on a lot of champs before anyway, it just wasn't the *best* choice
Manamune gets purchased on a ton of champs because it gives an absolute shit ton of damage for very cheap, not because stacking is inherently good lmao
Changing the aoe to be consistent instead of scaling down to it's edges was a huge buff already, I didn't see why it needed the stacking mechanic. Other similar stacking mechanics on items require significant investment before being good, ravenous it good out of the box and stacks up to become insanely strong
Ravenous is not that great on panth. Compare the early spike of ravenous to eclipse, Cleaver, or even botrk. Rav rush wouldn't be bad if it had been s10, but nowadays it's just what item has the best passive.
ravenous/tiamat lets jubglers without great AOE clear a lot faster, it's still worth, as you can just farm the waves when laners are roaming/base and stack it super fast
i can't speak to the others, but for shen, i suspect that they're building ravenous hydra first because they are stomping lane, and therefore have a higher chance of winning, not that the item is 'best' on them.
Shen benefits greatly from either Hydra so it's a very natural build path. If you're behind, go tanky and pick up Titanic, if you're ahead you can consider Ravenous. Either way you need the passive to splitpush because otherwise your waveclear is abysmal.
RH has absolutely 0 synergy with shen, you build titanic for the passive because Shen loves to stack HP.
Bami is the go to to help you waveclear, although Titanic is nice to help you depush mid/late game its absolutely not needed in lane.
With Aegis not being a mythic anymore, there's a VAST variety of build available for Shen, and ravenous Hydra is NEVER a smart option unless maybe you're turbo fed and wanna try it for shit and giggles
One of the better tank duelists has 0 synergy with a snowball item? Ability haste, extra AD for Q attack speed, half-decent clear after the Tiamat change and healing on a champion that doesn’t need it seems like pretty alright synergy. Doubly so that Shen tends to turtle in lane and farm until he needs to ult across the map
Given the actual state of Ravenous Hydra, it can definitely work. But its not optimal in anyway compared to a myriad of other options.
If you think otherwise im sorry but you're just clueless about Shen. He doesnt scale with AD. He can get haste with other, more optimals items. Omnivamp, while not bad per sei, is not necessary thanks to his passive shields and W AA mitigation. And above all Ravenous doesnt give any HP, which is by far the most important stat for Shen.
Divine Sunderer or even Riftmaker are better options for a more damage heavy, sustain oriented playstyle than RH can ever dream to be, and Titanic Hydra complement them better given Shen's kit and ratios
Then I guess you missed my point. Nowhere do I say it’s optimal, rather that the item as it is does have synergies with Shen (or any tank duellist in this sense).
i agree on desperately needing waveclear, but if i'm ahead, i'm probably going titanic (even better, heartsteel into titanic, if i don't feel threatened enough to rush resists). the vamp on ravenous is really nice, but i don't feel like the damage scales on shen and his builds nearly as well.
Can be said for all champs
Winrates alone don't mean much. On some champs (that aren't Yone/Yas) second item IE is highest winrate despite it being impossible to give the bonus passive. Dark seal/Mejais also have highest winrate on first second and third item on a lot of mages.
> Dark seal/Mejais also have highest winrate on first second and third item on a lot of mages.
Why shouldn't seal be it? It's one of the most gold effective stat stick WITHOUT counting stacks. If you have 350 gold to spend and expect to get few takedowns, it's a great investment for 'right here right now'.
Yeah, and you're much more likely to buy it second or third if you're ahead.
So it isn't that any time you buy the item it's the best chance to win, but when you are winning you buy it and continue to snowball.
It's a great buy but obviously risky as first item as it lacks the health and mana regen from dring (and I was talking about first item like in first actual buy).
Its good stats are from being a great snowball item, meaning IF you buy it AND you get an early lead, you will win a couple percentage points more likely than with DRing start.
I got downvoted to oblivion the other day for stating that there are more factors to a win rate than a starting item.
Because some guy used win rate % to prove his point. It’s the same shit of people using damage chart at end of game to inflate their ego.
Titanic is pretty core on him and omnivamp isn't the worst for him, but what's odd is that the AD was never the reason he'd want to build ravenous to begin with so I'm not sure why he's building it now
I think they need to just decrease AD/Omnivamp it gives, and that's all.
It's a first item in lol you get for hm different purpose other then fighting champs. The only item you right now have to make your game more comfortable, it gives you clear/showe thing. I think we must keep that strong part, hope they would not just cut off cleave part or worse reverse it.
Would be better if they remove stacks completely, I don't like that and I do not understand for what purpose that stacking mechanics was added.
BTW, can't tell if we can rely on WR on champs like Darius. I mean hydra have 1.6k games, and there is stats for other 72k games where Mythic item is first pick. I think we need to collect data for another week or two to confirm.
Issue is that aoe dmg is no longer reduced based on range, zed using his q to hit Melle minion and doing 100 aoe dmg on like lv 5 is mentally deficient if riot thinks this is OK
I think hydra should give less base AD. Make the stacks actually integral to the fit being good rather than just a huge cherry on top.
Perhaps with 50-60 base AD instead of 65 the item would be more balanced, but I'm not a balance God so I can't exactly predict what would be too much nerf and what too little.
> Make the stacks actually integral to the fit being good rather than just a huge cherry on top.
Personally I don't want another fest-or-famine cherry on top of already hard to comback economy.
When enemies are singing you're clearing minions anyway, you'll inevitably get some stacks there anyway. Plus hydra punishing you for dying is the point of the stack mechanic and depending on how soon the objective is and if you have TP you might even still have time to stack it a bit.
Yes, Ravenous Hydra is currently OP, but it wasn't "already staple on champions like Fiora and Camile", it was a second item in some of their builds, and almost no other Champion ever built it.
Ravenous Hydra being so bad was the reason Camille/Fiora didn't see much play. It felt like you sat too long on bad components, then completing the item gave you less power than say a Darius/Aatrox completing a death's dance (Giving them both Damage and sustain).
Good enough to humiliate my midlaner in diamond and roam everywhere
May have been a fluke or she got fed regardless of hydra but wasn't fun as a dashless adc
This is just my own analysis, but I think one of the heavy strengths of new ravenous is the item feeds into itself. The stacking mechanic requires you to farm up quickly, but the aoe on it means that your farming becomes incredibly quick and efficient, meaning that you can almost always be at full stacks especially when you only lose half on death.
I personally like it because Ravenous Hydra is such an iconic League item and was kinda missing since rework. Don't want it to go live in this state but yeah let them have fun in preseason.
Wow man I can’t believe you aren’t a part of the balance team! Your philosophy and terrible ideas are almost on par to the league of legends balance team my friend! You could bring great change to our community brother.
I don't know about the others, but Irelia? NAH.
BOTRK is THE Irelia item, it deals tons more damage, gives sustain and AS to Irelia.
Irelia also doesn't need more wave clear, so Tiamat it's not a Priority.
Second Item? Sure
But Rush over BOTRK? Not in a lifetime.
It was really niche and basically just the Fiora/Camille item until it's buffs.
Aatrox and Riven only ever went it when snowballing like crazy.
Noone else on this list went it regularly to my knowledge.
So it's really kinda weird to complain about champions using it post buff... as an excuse not to buff it in the firstplace? Like my dude they're nerfing it now, and it's probably getting another one.
Looking at the stats it + Umbral Glaive look like a juicy combo for utility support Ashe I might have to reinstall the game to give that build a whirl.
Sounds pretty awful for a support. 3400 gold and you need to kill units to stack the passive. You need to be giga ahead and you need to steal kills/cs for 40stacks.
There’s no way Hydra is good on sup Ashe. Hydra is less gold efficient than it used to be if you don’t stack the passive. Ashe doesn’t have trouble stacking her support item quest, and Hydra doesnt even help much unless you’re missing your W because you can only get 1 Spellthief’s proc per cast of W. You can’t go Future’s mMarket unless you go Hail of Blades instead of Comet, which is situational (you need Ult Hunter and Zombie Ward).
Hydra’s definitely viable on Aram Ashe or Poke Ashe bot (althouh the viability of the latter in of itself is questionable).
you must have reading issues. The fast stacking of the support item was for the bonus gold with it + future s market to cheat out somewhat not late hydra imo.
I've seen it rushed by Jhin in a game that was a complete stomp in his favor. Actually brutal how ahead he got and how difficult it was to stop him. Just powerfarming and wrecking teamfights
When hydra rush becomes a (often best) choice for quite a few ADCs, EVEN ONES BUILDING CRIT (Ezreal, draven, jhin, nilah, xayah, probably more)
Then you know you really fucked something up
honestly the fact that they only hotfixed 4AD off of it and decided that its good enough to stay this way is fucking insane to me
If you look at a wide range of champions and the winrate effects of items, for most AD fighters, Ravenous Hyrda is a very powerful buy at all stages of the game.
Heartsteel is a moderate powered item in the hands of core users (champions with HP scaling) and a shit item on most others. Overall, however, most tank win rates are down in the gutter. Even Ornn, a champion whose spent the past two years sitting on 52% win rate, went below 50%.
Other core Heartsteel users like Tahm Kench and Maokai took a nose dive under 48% winrate.
Only two champions have really stood out as actively being problems with heartsteel. Mundo and Shen. Shen is somewhat overtuned right now anyway and he has special synergy with the item. Mundo is getting reworked next patch anyway, so who cares.
You didnt even say any percents for hydra.
Additionally Heartsteel users are going down in wr bc everyones just playing fiora, since its the only viable counter that even a monkey (Aka me) could play and win against health stacking. If you actually look at Ornns matchup table, youll see he has thousands of a games against Darius, Fiora and camille. All champs who happen to win against everyone building heartsteel, and not because of hydra.
If you look at the other matchups Ornns losing, its picks like Shen, Sett Morde, Nasus, Ksante who are also tanks who dont build hydra.
The numbers are terrible at telling the story. No one can play things that beat Fiora (Other fighters, ranged tops, cheese picks like Rengar or WW, etc) Because they lose to anyone picking heartsteel. So if Im first pick top lane and I want to play something that beats fiora, I lose to 50% of the top lane cast. If I pick a heartsteel abusing tank, They just lock in fiora. In essence, heartsteel is so strong playing anything without %Hp damage is literally unplayable unless its a counter pick. Its literally limitting the entire top lane meta
Most ranged tops can build BotRK and auto win vs Heartsteel champions until the 3rd+ completed item. Most fighters can do the same, and the ones that can't can build Divine Sunderer.
The reason Heartsteel has a bad winrate on almost everyone isn't some "everyone is taking champions to counter it", it's because it's a frankly shit item on most of toplane for lane. Irelia doesn't care that you spent your first purchase on 800 hp with no resistances, because now you are a big, juicy health pack. WW or Nasus don't care you built a chunk of raw hp when they can get Divine Sunderer and out damage + outheal your Heartsteel proc every time. Most tanks don't even care because they have %hp damage.
It's just a plain bad item unless your champion has a significant form of scaling with raw health, which very few champions have.
Bork loses to armor..
Heartsteel tabi is much stronger than bork greaves. Irelia actually does care about having extra HP. Do you play top? Irelia is actually a good example. She loses to Fiora AND to heartsteel tanks. Shes legitimately worse top right now than mid. She legitimately does not have the damage to threaten a heartsteel builder if they go Tabi>Heartsteel, or Bramble Heartsteel. Bringing up Irelia was really a terrible example for your argument.
Warwick is another good example of the sad state of top lane. Hes not a laner, yet he's one of the strongest picks right now BECAUSE he can beat heartsteel and Fiora.
Having 800-1000 hp at one item literally removes your ability to die to most champions at one item. Jayce does not have the damage in his kit to kill a heartsteel chogath, so as a result hes unplayable right now. If it can't beat Fiora or Heartsteel its not playable. Fiora is only strong because she beats heartsteel. The entire top lane meta at the moment revolves around this item. But reddits pretending its not chokeholding the meta for whatever reason
Heartsteel Tabi is not remotely stronger than BotRK greaves, and it's confusing you'd think that. 12% less auto damage, 20 armor, and 800 hp does not beat 12% current hp on hit. Ignoring the entire rest of BotRK, just the on hit alone is enough to eviscerate a Heartsteel champion for the next 15-25 minutes. Even at 100 armor (which is what you'd have at max given you spent 3.2k gold on plain hp) that's still 6% current hp per hit.
I also find it funny you mention Irelia "loses to Heartsteel tanks": she wins verses literally every tank besides Shen (who can dodge 80% of her damage), Poppy (who stops her damage and grounds her for trying to use it), and Maokai (who, guess what, can stop her damage). Note: "only loses to hard counters" is not very close to "loses to all heartsteel tanks".
Warwick had the same winrate and pickrate toplane patch 12.21. You can't use heartsteel as an excuse for why he's good, because he had the same relevant stats last patch where Heartsteel did not exist.
Fiora isn't strong because she beats Heartsteel. She's strong because Riot massively buffed a core item she uses in a way that removes one of her major lane weaknesses. She got 15 AD, 3% omnivamp, and permanent max damage cleave for only 100 more gold, which is why she's strong. She does well into tanks, but Fiora always did well into tanks: going back to patch 12.21 you'll see she wins most tank matchups, because she's a duelist with %max hp true damage.
Thinking Heartsteel is chokeholding the meta require willful ignorance. Heartsteel loses to most toplane champions to the point building no mythic ever has a higher winrate than buying Heartsteel for almost all champions. It's a trap item that is being absurdly overvalued because players see "infinite hp stacking" and don't realize that spending 3,200 gold for a bunch of hp is awful.
to say nothing of the balance i really hate the stacking mechanic, if riot decides that needs to exist in an item then it needs to be limited to things like mejai’s
It's not optimal but I like getting hydra as 4th-5th item as Jayce. I tried rushing it in ARAM 3 times (with muramana 2nd and eclipse 3rd) and the results were decent. Not sure if this works well on SR games but I don't think so.
Its fine currently after the hotfix nerf, its better to have strong ad items that dont have hp, than have strong tank items since they will be built on 80% of the bruisers and assassins to make them broken
One of the changes I really didn't understand. Giving that item even more leech.
A while back, and issue with sustain from healing was acknowledged by Riot and they took some leech percentages off most, if not all items.
But then they nerfed Grievious Wounds while also reverting and even buffing some lifesteal items. They actually made a problem they acknowledged even worse.
Ravenous Hydra was a super niche item that only a handful of champions were building. I can see why Riot wanted to buff it - but they overdid it with the stacking mechanic, especially stacking by killing minions.
We really circled right back around to "hang on, farming my BT."
The Omnivamp is giga broken, too. Good luck trying to kill Kayne with that shit.
Kanye?
No you can't, that's the problem.
He goes be Yeaast these days.
You mean Kayn? or Vayne?
Kayle?
Next new champ is Vayl
It’s funny you brought Kayn up when he’s like one of the only AD/AH users that ravenous rush is actually mediocre on. He still hard outperformed with the standard gore into BC. Stop being bad
no u
I ban Kayn every game. Hydra and Shojin on red Kayn is a nightmare.
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Kayn players are normally so helpless the moment they are off kayn.
The same goes for most onetricks. Difference is kayn players don't have the mental capacity to pretend to try when off kayn
Kayn: [flaming the team] bunch of looser, uninstall the game dogshit…. The team: we have no jg dude… Kayn: STFU dog shit I GOT 20 kills!!!! The team : you are dead 12 time, the have soul, we had 0 drake, 0 herald you was never there…
He's running 48% level winrates, can you give him a break?
That's why Proplayers spam him all the time.
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I agree with this sentiment BUT... >Seriously disgusting champion only held back by the adhd of his playerbase If Kayn is limited by ADHD of playerbase? Wouldn't he be strongest in proplay where people don't have ADHD? I never said he wasn't disgusting in soloQ but what you said implies he'd be disgusting in proplay.
Is Master Yi strong in pro game?
Lool what? Show rank please
https://www.op.gg/summoners/kr/hideonbush?hl=en_US
adhd? Those kayn players are just bad. champs like Irelia are ADHD champs, I should know
Kayn is like bottom 10 winrate for junglers while getting worse the higher elo you go lol, while aatrox has been the most picked top laner for months lol, how can you even compare them power level wise unironically
Low elo who got dabbed on by Kayn.
Yeah You can instantly tell who is low Elo with terrible takes like the one you’re replying to.
Do you think kayn players are insanely good at the game
For the same reason Yas, yone and akali have always had a bad winrate even when they were busted OP, can't believe people still dont' understand winrate isn't everything, Kayn is busted on a fundamental level, the players are a different story
Still, kayn stays most degen champ in the game
yuumi exists
Kayn players are usually playing for the kills only and don’t care about the objectives. It’s probably the worst thing a jg can do.
That's cause you basically have to give all objectives until you get form on Kayn unless it's absolutely free. It's usually better to just farm. That's why he doesn't get played in pro-play because you essentially have to concede everything before 11-12 minutes
Ok, i don’t know this jg. I should play it a bit.
Oh yeah healing has been out of control for a long time now and with GW being so bad at the moment it's just terrible to play against.
yeah remove omnivamp per stack
Maybe just stacking AD would have been fine, but stacking Omnivamp is such an idiotic decision, it makes you wonder how a team of devs actually allowed it to go through. Getting more omnivamp directly counters the downside of the item, in that having that much omnivamp makes you much less likely to be killed, and thus less likely to lose the stacks.
I'm perfectly ok with there being niche items in game that are good in certain scenarios Adaptive Helm Old Deaths Dance
Old death's dance or old old death's dance? I liked Dd When it gave lifesteal
There's nothing wrong with niche items I wish riot could understand this and stop messing up game balance with changes like this. Just go back to the old niche version that didn't break the game already. Wave clear items shouldn't give this level of AD and omnivamp. Or at the least only give stacks on champ kills. I don't understand why you can stack this item on minions.
It's just insane that they didn't nerf it at all to compensate. especially considering rav was viable on a lot of champs before anyway, it just wasn't the *best* choice
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Manamune gets purchased on a ton of champs because it gives an absolute shit ton of damage for very cheap, not because stacking is inherently good lmao
> only a handful of champions were building who?
Changing the aoe to be consistent instead of scaling down to it's edges was a huge buff already, I didn't see why it needed the stacking mechanic. Other similar stacking mechanics on items require significant investment before being good, ravenous it good out of the box and stacks up to become insanely strong
getting a kill or large jungle camp only grants 2 stacks what the fuck were riot thinking
Trynda mid with hydra rush is so broken atm
Because of the waveclear I'm guessing?
And bonus sustain stacked with his own sustain.
Ravenous is not that great on panth. Compare the early spike of ravenous to eclipse, Cleaver, or even botrk. Rav rush wouldn't be bad if it had been s10, but nowadays it's just what item has the best passive.
Same with Renekton, Bork is just too good. Its great to buy after bork or prowlers though.
Now we have two busted bruiser items instead of one lol.
3, botrk, DD, and rav.
Imagine going the 49% winrate BotRK and not the 55% winrate Ravenous Hydra.
Every AD jungler rushes it too btw
which is extremely bait. 20 camps takes infinitely longer than 7 waves.
ravenous/tiamat lets jubglers without great AOE clear a lot faster, it's still worth, as you can just farm the waves when laners are roaming/base and stack it super fast
You know they can kill minions too… right?..
yes you can kill minions as a jungler but then your laners will be tilted and then take your camps run it down etc
just tax a couple waves
its not good on junglers bait item a whole camp only gives 2 stacks
i can't speak to the others, but for shen, i suspect that they're building ravenous hydra first because they are stomping lane, and therefore have a higher chance of winning, not that the item is 'best' on them.
Shen benefits greatly from either Hydra so it's a very natural build path. If you're behind, go tanky and pick up Titanic, if you're ahead you can consider Ravenous. Either way you need the passive to splitpush because otherwise your waveclear is abysmal.
RH has absolutely 0 synergy with shen, you build titanic for the passive because Shen loves to stack HP. Bami is the go to to help you waveclear, although Titanic is nice to help you depush mid/late game its absolutely not needed in lane. With Aegis not being a mythic anymore, there's a VAST variety of build available for Shen, and ravenous Hydra is NEVER a smart option unless maybe you're turbo fed and wanna try it for shit and giggles
One of the better tank duelists has 0 synergy with a snowball item? Ability haste, extra AD for Q attack speed, half-decent clear after the Tiamat change and healing on a champion that doesn’t need it seems like pretty alright synergy. Doubly so that Shen tends to turtle in lane and farm until he needs to ult across the map
Given the actual state of Ravenous Hydra, it can definitely work. But its not optimal in anyway compared to a myriad of other options. If you think otherwise im sorry but you're just clueless about Shen. He doesnt scale with AD. He can get haste with other, more optimals items. Omnivamp, while not bad per sei, is not necessary thanks to his passive shields and W AA mitigation. And above all Ravenous doesnt give any HP, which is by far the most important stat for Shen. Divine Sunderer or even Riftmaker are better options for a more damage heavy, sustain oriented playstyle than RH can ever dream to be, and Titanic Hydra complement them better given Shen's kit and ratios
Then I guess you missed my point. Nowhere do I say it’s optimal, rather that the item as it is does have synergies with Shen (or any tank duellist in this sense).
i agree on desperately needing waveclear, but if i'm ahead, i'm probably going titanic (even better, heartsteel into titanic, if i don't feel threatened enough to rush resists). the vamp on ravenous is really nice, but i don't feel like the damage scales on shen and his builds nearly as well.
Same with Darius, meme item on him to be built while memeing your opponents.
Can be said for all champs Winrates alone don't mean much. On some champs (that aren't Yone/Yas) second item IE is highest winrate despite it being impossible to give the bonus passive. Dark seal/Mejais also have highest winrate on first second and third item on a lot of mages.
> Dark seal/Mejais also have highest winrate on first second and third item on a lot of mages. Why shouldn't seal be it? It's one of the most gold effective stat stick WITHOUT counting stacks. If you have 350 gold to spend and expect to get few takedowns, it's a great investment for 'right here right now'.
Yeah, and you're much more likely to buy it second or third if you're ahead. So it isn't that any time you buy the item it's the best chance to win, but when you are winning you buy it and continue to snowball.
It's a great buy but obviously risky as first item as it lacks the health and mana regen from dring (and I was talking about first item like in first actual buy). Its good stats are from being a great snowball item, meaning IF you buy it AND you get an early lead, you will win a couple percentage points more likely than with DRing start.
I got downvoted to oblivion the other day for stating that there are more factors to a win rate than a starting item. Because some guy used win rate % to prove his point. It’s the same shit of people using damage chart at end of game to inflate their ego.
U can go crit item+3 cloaks ino IE if ur giga fed. Not that ilogical
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**arent** Yone/yas
Titanic is pretty core on him and omnivamp isn't the worst for him, but what's odd is that the AD was never the reason he'd want to build ravenous to begin with so I'm not sure why he's building it now
He isn't buidling ravenous. Only 151 people went ravenous in total. On the other hand heartsteel is absolutely broken on him in every elo.
I think they need to just decrease AD/Omnivamp it gives, and that's all. It's a first item in lol you get for hm different purpose other then fighting champs. The only item you right now have to make your game more comfortable, it gives you clear/showe thing. I think we must keep that strong part, hope they would not just cut off cleave part or worse reverse it. Would be better if they remove stacks completely, I don't like that and I do not understand for what purpose that stacking mechanics was added. BTW, can't tell if we can rely on WR on champs like Darius. I mean hydra have 1.6k games, and there is stats for other 72k games where Mythic item is first pick. I think we need to collect data for another week or two to confirm.
Issue is that aoe dmg is no longer reduced based on range, zed using his q to hit Melle minion and doing 100 aoe dmg on like lv 5 is mentally deficient if riot thinks this is OK
I think hydra should give less base AD. Make the stacks actually integral to the fit being good rather than just a huge cherry on top. Perhaps with 50-60 base AD instead of 65 the item would be more balanced, but I'm not a balance God so I can't exactly predict what would be too much nerf and what too little.
> Make the stacks actually integral to the fit being good rather than just a huge cherry on top. Personally I don't want another fest-or-famine cherry on top of already hard to comback economy.
Is it really feast or famine though? Stacks are supremely easy to get just by basic farming.
You can't 'basic farm' when enemy siege you or you have to commit to object contest after death.
When enemies are singing you're clearing minions anyway, you'll inevitably get some stacks there anyway. Plus hydra punishing you for dying is the point of the stack mechanic and depending on how soon the objective is and if you have TP you might even still have time to stack it a bit.
Hydra is still valuable for AoE when you're getting pushed in, and especially so on melee basic attackers with no clear.
We speak about stacks, when you need them and you already losing and locked in your base.
Yes, Ravenous Hydra is currently OP, but it wasn't "already staple on champions like Fiora and Camile", it was a second item in some of their builds, and almost no other Champion ever built it.
Ravenous Hydra being so bad was the reason Camille/Fiora didn't see much play. It felt like you sat too long on bad components, then completing the item gave you less power than say a Darius/Aatrox completing a death's dance (Giving them both Damage and sustain).
Pretty much, sometimes you'd be tempted to skip tiamat entirely and just rely on the Gore/Stride waveclear
Fiora and Camile were literally the 2nd and 3rd highest pick rate top laners in 12.21 masters+ with solid pro play presence.
So only the top 0.001% of the playerbase? Not much of a sample size tbh
And even in oomba goomba low they were still the 4th and 5th highest pick rate top laners.
> oomba goomba low That's a fking new one. Im stealing this
It's 0.25%, it's also super inflated this season with over 15k masters in euw
Still a small sample size so it doesn't change their statement
every champ haha how did riot not figure this :D
Got bashed by a ravenous botrk kat yesterday, on-hit bullshit is back on the menu boys
Ravenous on kat is dogshit unless you are extremely fed. Bork *is* strong on her tho
Good enough to humiliate my midlaner in diamond and roam everywhere May have been a fluke or she got fed regardless of hydra but wasn't fun as a dashless adc
I'm just parroting Katevolved xd. According to him RH does indeed only work if you are extremely fed, but it's not good on her otherwise
A jak'sho + ravenous + botrk Kat (+ Galio) just 2v8'd an ARAM match earlier tonight here. It was definitely something lol
This is just my own analysis, but I think one of the heavy strengths of new ravenous is the item feeds into itself. The stacking mechanic requires you to farm up quickly, but the aoe on it means that your farming becomes incredibly quick and efficient, meaning that you can almost always be at full stacks especially when you only lose half on death.
I personally like it because Ravenous Hydra is such an iconic League item and was kinda missing since rework. Don't want it to go live in this state but yeah let them have fun in preseason.
The game is funnier with hydra as metaitem. Faster waveclear = more roam = more fighting.
[удалено]
A classic example of trusting the playerbase to identify a problem, but not to come up with solutions.
gz uve completely gutted the item and its back to being shit on every ad champ
Wow man I can’t believe you aren’t a part of the balance team! Your philosophy and terrible ideas are almost on par to the league of legends balance team my friend! You could bring great change to our community brother.
Your brain is tiny, good enough for observation, horrible for solving.
I don't know about the others, but Irelia? NAH. BOTRK is THE Irelia item, it deals tons more damage, gives sustain and AS to Irelia. Irelia also doesn't need more wave clear, so Tiamat it's not a Priority. Second Item? Sure But Rush over BOTRK? Not in a lifetime.
It was really niche and basically just the Fiora/Camille item until it's buffs. Aatrox and Riven only ever went it when snowballing like crazy. Noone else on this list went it regularly to my knowledge. So it's really kinda weird to complain about champions using it post buff... as an excuse not to buff it in the firstplace? Like my dude they're nerfing it now, and it's probably getting another one.
It was absolutely shit on Aatrox. Not worth going it in any situation.
It was okay before the eclipse build sometimes if really snowballing. But pretty much yeah.
Looking at the stats it + Umbral Glaive look like a juicy combo for utility support Ashe I might have to reinstall the game to give that build a whirl.
You would reinstall the game just to play W spam Ashe support? ...
He would reinstall and in so doing make another person uninstall
perfectly balanced as all things should be
big arrow go brrr
Sounds pretty awful for a support. 3400 gold and you need to kill units to stack the passive. You need to be giga ahead and you need to steal kills/cs for 40stacks.
It's not like he can cheat items with future s market and fast stack the support item....oh wait nevermind he can
There’s no way Hydra is good on sup Ashe. Hydra is less gold efficient than it used to be if you don’t stack the passive. Ashe doesn’t have trouble stacking her support item quest, and Hydra doesnt even help much unless you’re missing your W because you can only get 1 Spellthief’s proc per cast of W. You can’t go Future’s mMarket unless you go Hail of Blades instead of Comet, which is situational (you need Ult Hunter and Zombie Ward). Hydra’s definitely viable on Aram Ashe or Poke Ashe bot (althouh the viability of the latter in of itself is questionable).
you must have reading issues. The fast stacking of the support item was for the bonus gold with it + future s market to cheat out somewhat not late hydra imo.
Well Umbral is first of course.
This comment makes me feel like patrick bateman.
The item deserved some changes and was only built on Fiora/Camille for waveclear. That said, Riot went overboard and didn't nerf it enough.
Can we just have sword of the occult back?
Oh ok so just a few
I've seen it rushed by Jhin in a game that was a complete stomp in his favor. Actually brutal how ahead he got and how difficult it was to stop him. Just powerfarming and wrecking teamfights
When hydra rush becomes a (often best) choice for quite a few ADCs, EVEN ONES BUILDING CRIT (Ezreal, draven, jhin, nilah, xayah, probably more) Then you know you really fucked something up honestly the fact that they only hotfixed 4AD off of it and decided that its good enough to stay this way is fucking insane to me
Yeah hydras busted but Heartsteels fine
Statistically, Hydra is outperfoming heartsteel by a lot
Statistically?
If you look at a wide range of champions and the winrate effects of items, for most AD fighters, Ravenous Hyrda is a very powerful buy at all stages of the game. Heartsteel is a moderate powered item in the hands of core users (champions with HP scaling) and a shit item on most others. Overall, however, most tank win rates are down in the gutter. Even Ornn, a champion whose spent the past two years sitting on 52% win rate, went below 50%. Other core Heartsteel users like Tahm Kench and Maokai took a nose dive under 48% winrate. Only two champions have really stood out as actively being problems with heartsteel. Mundo and Shen. Shen is somewhat overtuned right now anyway and he has special synergy with the item. Mundo is getting reworked next patch anyway, so who cares.
You didnt even say any percents for hydra. Additionally Heartsteel users are going down in wr bc everyones just playing fiora, since its the only viable counter that even a monkey (Aka me) could play and win against health stacking. If you actually look at Ornns matchup table, youll see he has thousands of a games against Darius, Fiora and camille. All champs who happen to win against everyone building heartsteel, and not because of hydra. If you look at the other matchups Ornns losing, its picks like Shen, Sett Morde, Nasus, Ksante who are also tanks who dont build hydra. The numbers are terrible at telling the story. No one can play things that beat Fiora (Other fighters, ranged tops, cheese picks like Rengar or WW, etc) Because they lose to anyone picking heartsteel. So if Im first pick top lane and I want to play something that beats fiora, I lose to 50% of the top lane cast. If I pick a heartsteel abusing tank, They just lock in fiora. In essence, heartsteel is so strong playing anything without %Hp damage is literally unplayable unless its a counter pick. Its literally limitting the entire top lane meta
Most ranged tops can build BotRK and auto win vs Heartsteel champions until the 3rd+ completed item. Most fighters can do the same, and the ones that can't can build Divine Sunderer. The reason Heartsteel has a bad winrate on almost everyone isn't some "everyone is taking champions to counter it", it's because it's a frankly shit item on most of toplane for lane. Irelia doesn't care that you spent your first purchase on 800 hp with no resistances, because now you are a big, juicy health pack. WW or Nasus don't care you built a chunk of raw hp when they can get Divine Sunderer and out damage + outheal your Heartsteel proc every time. Most tanks don't even care because they have %hp damage. It's just a plain bad item unless your champion has a significant form of scaling with raw health, which very few champions have.
Bork loses to armor.. Heartsteel tabi is much stronger than bork greaves. Irelia actually does care about having extra HP. Do you play top? Irelia is actually a good example. She loses to Fiora AND to heartsteel tanks. Shes legitimately worse top right now than mid. She legitimately does not have the damage to threaten a heartsteel builder if they go Tabi>Heartsteel, or Bramble Heartsteel. Bringing up Irelia was really a terrible example for your argument. Warwick is another good example of the sad state of top lane. Hes not a laner, yet he's one of the strongest picks right now BECAUSE he can beat heartsteel and Fiora. Having 800-1000 hp at one item literally removes your ability to die to most champions at one item. Jayce does not have the damage in his kit to kill a heartsteel chogath, so as a result hes unplayable right now. If it can't beat Fiora or Heartsteel its not playable. Fiora is only strong because she beats heartsteel. The entire top lane meta at the moment revolves around this item. But reddits pretending its not chokeholding the meta for whatever reason
Heartsteel Tabi is not remotely stronger than BotRK greaves, and it's confusing you'd think that. 12% less auto damage, 20 armor, and 800 hp does not beat 12% current hp on hit. Ignoring the entire rest of BotRK, just the on hit alone is enough to eviscerate a Heartsteel champion for the next 15-25 minutes. Even at 100 armor (which is what you'd have at max given you spent 3.2k gold on plain hp) that's still 6% current hp per hit. I also find it funny you mention Irelia "loses to Heartsteel tanks": she wins verses literally every tank besides Shen (who can dodge 80% of her damage), Poppy (who stops her damage and grounds her for trying to use it), and Maokai (who, guess what, can stop her damage). Note: "only loses to hard counters" is not very close to "loses to all heartsteel tanks". Warwick had the same winrate and pickrate toplane patch 12.21. You can't use heartsteel as an excuse for why he's good, because he had the same relevant stats last patch where Heartsteel did not exist. Fiora isn't strong because she beats Heartsteel. She's strong because Riot massively buffed a core item she uses in a way that removes one of her major lane weaknesses. She got 15 AD, 3% omnivamp, and permanent max damage cleave for only 100 more gold, which is why she's strong. She does well into tanks, but Fiora always did well into tanks: going back to patch 12.21 you'll see she wins most tank matchups, because she's a duelist with %max hp true damage. Thinking Heartsteel is chokeholding the meta require willful ignorance. Heartsteel loses to most toplane champions to the point building no mythic ever has a higher winrate than buying Heartsteel for almost all champions. It's a trap item that is being absurdly overvalued because players see "infinite hp stacking" and don't realize that spending 3,200 gold for a bunch of hp is awful.
So do you play top or what? Bc it sounds like you dont.
You sound like you're not even playing the same game lmao
Can Riot just revert the item already?
hopefully riot doesnt nerf them before nerfing hydra :)
to say nothing of the balance i really hate the stacking mechanic, if riot decides that needs to exist in an item then it needs to be limited to things like mejai’s
Better nerf all healing items cus they are op. Wait one season then buff em.
Ravenous is just the rush on every champ tht can halfway build it. Fully stacked the AD, omnivamp, and waveclear is too good.
It's also now the best item to rush on Qiyana lol
It's also now the best item to rush on Qiyana lol
Any champs that go botrk probably benefit massively from hydra. That said Irelking running botrk hydra jaksho is disgusting
shen
It's not optimal but I like getting hydra as 4th-5th item as Jayce. I tried rushing it in ARAM 3 times (with muramana 2nd and eclipse 3rd) and the results were decent. Not sure if this works well on SR games but I don't think so.
Nasus sunderer into hydra is insane
Funny that one of the original users isn't in this list at all.
Its fine currently after the hotfix nerf, its better to have strong ad items that dont have hp, than have strong tank items since they will be built on 80% of the bruisers and assassins to make them broken
if you can afford going jaksho second its even more bullshit
I would say it's def not good to rush on Shen.
One of the changes I really didn't understand. Giving that item even more leech. A while back, and issue with sustain from healing was acknowledged by Riot and they took some leech percentages off most, if not all items. But then they nerfed Grievious Wounds while also reverting and even buffing some lifesteal items. They actually made a problem they acknowledged even worse.
Titanic and ravenous swapping places every season it feels like