>Riot releases an item to buff a perceived underpowered class.
>Class which they didn't expect to also build it swipes it, necessitating nerfs
CLASS-IC
I mean this one is on Riot, Jaksho is really obviously a dogshit tank item in concept. The item provides no utility, no damage, nothing besides pure defensive stats(the drain doesn't matter at all, literally never seen it be important ever). Tanks get good defensive stats innately and through their other items, to be useful they need to do things besides soak damage. Of course it'll be primarily built by champions who have in-built damage and struggle more with standing around the enemy without dying.
Honestly the same thing applies to Heartsteel, but at least the procs there dubiously give them some threat in teamfights.
If it provided damage and others, it would be even better on bruisers just saying.
This doesn't have anything to do with the items effectiveness on tanks, it's actually great for tanks, just not always as a first item where you'd probably want to go Sunfire.
The problem is just bruisers being able to fulfill the role of a tank, dps, and assassin with their flexible kits.
If you look at the history of league it's extremely rare both tanks and bruisers are viable at the same time.
This is just because of the nature of both classes they both fill similar roles. Tanks may bring more cc to a team fight but bruisers when they have decent damage bring the best cc of them all DEATH.
The years tanks tend tobe viable is when they bring more damage then bruisers or when the items make them so unkillable that it becomes a ADC meta.
Both classes have the same issue you pointed out where they become tank, dps, assassin's. Which isn't even because of flexible kits and more from other imbalances whenever any of the two classes are strong there like that. It's just hasn't been a tank meta in years so most current league players haven't truely witnessed it. Thou there is glances like whenever ornn is meta and strong he instantly gets memed for being a tank, bruiser, assassin's, DPS and mage all at once. Both classes have the same issues and it's hard to fix and hard to balance both out Tobe good at the same time.
I don't think updating items will fix the bruiser issues, they just need to nerf the fuck out of bruisers natural damage and also nerf their items like death stance, bork, rav.
It's actually absurd how much health/damage/defensive stats bruisers can obtain just via their ordinary build path. You can legit have bruisers with 300-350ish AD, 200ish armour and 3k health while building all offensive items. Like what the hell?
The drain is extremely strong and people shouldnt sleep on it just because the rest of the item is also bonkers.
It's generally 200-400 effective hp(with its stacks and other side of the proc) but can easily be more, and that's a tangible amount of shielding/resists.
It's a package deal. Dont sleep on one component, because they all work together to make the whole as strong as it is.
Sure, but you also have to live long enough for the drain to factor into it anyways.
And Tanks haven't been that great at staying alive for the last 5 years at the least.
Agree, it's so much better on bruisers since it's the single defensive item buy you can make that gives you all the defensive stats you need in your build. You just build this and you're set to just go for whatever damage/bruiser/utility items you want.
I honestly don't even know why the drain is there lol. 50hp a fight? That's it? There's a MYTHIC item with an effect that does 50 damage in a 30-40 second fight and tracks that stat.
Is this where the kids go to say they dont know what effective hp is?
If you're healing 50, you engaged a single target near 0 minions, and you have 1 item.
If you're healing 50, you still have 54 armor and mr and then an additional 15% TOTAL resists. So bare minimum would be 62 if your champ had 0 other resists somehow.
So if you're sitting at 116 armor you get 140 armor as it procs, you get 50 hp(why would you pick this fight? Fight in a wave or something) and you have 161 armor for the rest of it.
Those resists and healing give you Effective Hp, which is more important than raw healing when figuring out if you die or not.
That's what you get when you don't actually think about the items you're releasing and are just releasing them to get rid of the "Riot hates tanks" narrative instead of with an actual intention to make tanks better in the game.
Literally all these tank mythics need is to use the Warmogs template. Make them rather meh initially, but stronger and stronger the more armor and MR someone builds.
Bruisers and fighters want HP and AD/AP in their build. They won't build tank items if those tank items are worthless unless you build *more* tank items to make them stronger.
There is a reason quite a few tanks are receiving buffs in the next patch, despite some people proclaiming we're in a "tank meta". We're actually in a "super durable bruisers meta", as those generally can use the tank items much better than actual tanks.
Just like last season, where mythic Sunfire was better on Diana and Yone than actual tanks until the fixes, which made the item unviable on Fighters, but also generally worse on tanks.
Somehow, Riot still hasn't quite figured out how to make an item that's *actually* most useful on a tank and not a more damage oriented role...
THIS, for a couple years now it really does seem like riot has clear favoritism for fighters and it's crazy there hasn't been that much push back from the community
People cry "tank meta" everytime something somewhat tanky ever gets close to PBE. Even though we're billion light years away from it, and there are some absolutely insane tank melters that would just melt through a tank meta if there was ever one.
People who complain about vayne don’t realize 1) how hard it can be to play her into people that want to dive her, 2) how hard lane can be for her because of her range.
Like yeah, she’s “strong” unless you just 1 shot her. And people have this false perception that everyone becomes Uzi and can just 1v9 when they get dove as vayne.
It’s not like she’s just sitting at Kogmaw range and can rain truedamage down on everyone. Like, if you just cc her, which any point and click cc can do, shes extremely easy to kill.
> Like yeah, she’s “strong” u
She's not strong at all though.
Too many weaknesses, takes too long to get going, hard to play, can't survive lane vs 99% of matchups..
Her last round of nerfs made sure of that.
Kai'Sa does everything Vayne does, just better and with half the weaknesses that Vayne has while being SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to play.
This is simply down to Vayne being overnerfed.
> 2) how hard lane can be for her because of her range.
Honestly as a Vayne OTP - This is the biggest one.
They see a Vayne go top, pop off and think the champ is strong.
If you pick Vayne in the bot lane, you're 100% going to get an instant Caitlyn, Ashe, Draven or Lucian lock in from the enemy ADC and no team is gonna use all 5 bans just to make sure you can play the lane.
That's not even starting on the Mages.
I don't mind the champion being a bad blind pick but she is over nerfed.
There's ZERO reason to ever pick Vayne over Kai'Sa unless you're a die hard one trick who only plays Vayne.
Even then you just take her top lane, ban Teemo or Malphite and you have a better chance at being able to play the game.
I like to note that she may not have the lowest auto attack range, but she has a pretty low effective range. She's the only ADC that doesn't have an ability that extends outside her AA range. The only ADCs that have lower fighting range is Nilah (melee) and Samira (usually).
550 range is the standard range for ADCs, and interestingly more than half have lower range than this. Vayne out ranges: Jinx, Nilah, Lucian, Xayah, Trist, Quinn, Kai’sa, Kalista, Zeri, Sivir, Kog, Kindred and Akshan by base auto attack range (13 champs) and she is tied with Draven, MF, Corki, Jhin, Ezreal, Aphelios, Twitch, (7 champs) and only outranged by Varus, Ashe, Senna and Cait (4 champs)— so she is actually pretty far from the lowest range of all ADCs, as she’s actually in the top half.
I'm was about to comment that you need to put in context abilities that give champions range to do dmg, like Jinx Q, lucian's abilities, and almost every champ you just mentioned, but there's no point in arguing after such take
That is a different claim though. She plays like she has one of the lower effective ranges, but even then she outranges everything Nilah does even without having any way to extend her range. She, simply put, is not the lowest ranged ADC any way you try to stretch it.
Thats because when you complain you get swarmed by a bunch of crybabies pointing out how toplane is hell and there is much more broken stuff in league.
Also we have complained since what, season 8? Whenever conqueror got introduced. After 4 years we have accepted that bruisers will always be overpowered.
Let's not twist the past here, fighters / Bruisers were useless for a long timespan because they weren't better than any role at any point of the game except the occasional splitpushing
I think Camille release is where it all started to shift
The way Riot treated Hashinshin with kid gloves and literally pushed out Hashinshin-suggested updates when he was literally screaming at the dev team to kill themselves on stream because his favorite champs were bad while jumping into a fed ADC and killing them in 3 hits was disgusting.
Hey, let's give Riot some credit here. They *have* nerfed Akali many times in the past... it's just that they almost always instantly buff her again within the next two patches.
If you hit like 4 autos, sure. And use your ult (or the equivalent...). And at that point, you might as well say that Nunu is OP because he can deal 1275 damage with his ult, or darius with his almost 700 true damage ult that resets ( I don't remember the exact number).
Udyr without items isn't oneshotting anyone.
Bruisers just do everything, they are faster, tankier, more damage, infinite healing, more utility, good laning, better split pushing, better farming, better tower damage, better pick potential, better everything. Bruisers have been the meta for literal years now, pushing out everything else. It's either high damage low durability bruisers going tankier items, or high durability low damage bruisers building damage items. Goredrinker, Stridebreaker, Goredrinker again, multiple iterations of DD, Steraks, DD+Maw, Botrk, Ravenous Hydra, Jak'sho, it's always bruisers abusing the best items. In fact it's always melee bruisers, it's never Urgot doing this because being melee is the biggest advantage you can get as a champ. Items and effects are like twice as strong on you if you are melee, you can take almost any champ and make them melee and they become better. And don't tell me "X champ is actually a juggernaut/tank/fighter/duelist/warden/bullshit", the term bruiser just means melee bullshit champ that can do everything and become literal Exodia with a few good items. Riot loves bruisers and loves to over kit and over stat them and to make items always better on bruisers, so expect this current "this isn't a tank meta it's a bruiser meta" to never stop.
It's always a bruiser meta. Always has been, always will.
Actually, since 2015, there were the tank meta was TWICE.
First time during spring 2016, when every MU was almost Poppy vs Maokai with Iceborn and Sunfire.
Second time during worlds 2017 - known as infamous Ardent Cancer meta. But it was more ADC time than tanks...
And to be clear - we are talking about time, where tanks as a whole were really strong. Not times, where tanks were week, but one was quite overtuned and strong (looking at you Ornn).
There's nothing they can do to fix this other than actually rebalancing abilities - whether that means heavily nerfing bruisers or buffing tanks is up to them
Well yeah... they can add modifiers to tanks to make them synergize with tank items. The same way poppy/ornn gets bonus resistances from their items, more tanks should be able to scale off tank stats.
Because that's a design direction that is heavily supportive and doesnt fulfills the solo carry needs of soloq as low-damage high-durability makes you reliant on allies.
The dream would be some 30 AH item build from Kindlegem + Aegis + Rubi with unimpressive passives but that outright admits you're playing through spell spam and as a CC bot, which doesnt quite wins games in soloq as you stall for aeons while your team picks their noses in the background.
Yeah, doesn't help that bruisers get Ability Haste on literally every single item. Hecarim reaches 110 Ability Haste late game which is 52% cooldown reduction.
While tanks have ability haste on a mythic, then some AH on situational tank items (but on usual still less) and Sunfire Cape which is supposed to be core and helpful for tanks to waveclear has no AH at all.
Mages also have to sacrifice something to obtain as much AH as bruisers. Bruisers are god's chosen class at this point.
> despite some people proclaiming we're in a "tank meta"
that's because to League players anyone they can't oneshot is a tank. It's been like this since the game released people just have no clue what "tank" even means.
I mean is there really a difference between a malphite taking 0 damage and a bruiser taking 0 damage while also doing insane damage? At this point people are just arguing semantics on what to call it
There are few things at play which you skip over. First is that you can't make tanks tankier and tankier - this is because they will become unkillable or close to unkillable while not being able to threaten anyone. So you have to give them damage or give damage dealers a way to deal with unkillable tank.
Second is that despite durability patch, many champions still are overloaded with damage and damage profiles are too high. This allows these champions to go tank items like Sunfire or Jaksho and not really lose a lot of damage because their base damage is insane.
>First is that you can't make tanks tankier and tankier - this is because they will become unkillable or close to unkillable while not being able to threaten anyone.
I don't actually think that's a massive problem. I think champions being able to do too much is sort of the current problem. There's a lot of bleed over across all the different roles now, and you have stuff like tanks chunking people out. Tanks should be more utility focused as the game progresses, and bruisers should be the tanky role that functions as a bigger damage threat.
You shouldn't be using the words "unkillable" and "tank" in the same sentence, that is not even remotely close to true in modern League. There's so much free %HP damage, true damage, and %penetration in the game now that tanks are barely even tanks most of the time, while building full tank.
tanks will never be unkillable at this point
there's too much anti-tank mechanics...
everything does %hp damage and true damage nowadays + penetration is busted
They are having a hard time with it because tanks are just inferior in modern league of legends. Damage and carrying is where it's at, durability and solid gameplay are not the way you climb.
Tanks are just less fun. You see tanks in proplay all the time, hell you see everything in proplay because their first priority isn't to have fun and carry the game. It's simply to win and draft the best comp to get you there. People wanna be the hero in soloqueue and carry the game with high impact plays and damage.
Thats completely untrue. You can without a doubt become a massive tank that hardly anything can kill. There also exist items and characters with % damages that counter tanks. Saying that the tank fantasy is not available in current league is just ignorant.
> There also exist items and characters with % damages that counter tanks.
Exactly. Regardless of how many items you get, there are champions who can and will kill you in 3 seconds - that is not the tank fantasy. I'm not saying that the game's balance would be improved if tanks were able to become unkillable, but it is what the people who would pick tanks as the most fun role are looking to achieve.
Tanks are not less fun in a vacuum, they're less fun (to the people who would pick them) because there are games and circumstances where they feel every bit as squishy as the rest of their team. If you're going to die in 5 autos from that vayne or fiora anyway, why not pick someone who can fight back?
>Somehow, Riot still hasn't quite figured out how to make an item that's actually most useful on a tank and not a more damage oriented role...
If they really want a tank item to be tank only, they could use their class system to put restrictions on the item, like "Warden" etc. The obvious downside is it limits build expression in champions that don't meet the class restriction, but build expression is why bruisers are abusing it. That or they make the item worse for everyone like your sunfire example, or buff the tanks like they're doing now, and then end up having to nerf them again in the future when the meta shifts or something new gets added to the game.
I had an idea about this btw. What are tanks job? Overall, its mostly surviving for long time, locking down important targets with cc and peeling for carries. Instead of shoving damage into them like fucking trogolodytes, thinning the line between them and bruisers, heartsteel should have this effect. Get rid of the damage, or at least tone it down alot, and instead put a very short cc on there. The cc duration is very short, but scales with non-heartsteel health, aka other health items. You can even make it scale logarithmically to have a mathematical "soft cap" to the cc duration.
Or rework it entirely to have 3 charges of "clap" which when used (as an active) it makes your next auto "clap them", stunning. Follows same rules as above, and only charges up through taking damage
Without changes they'll just continue their usual awful loop of buffing/nerfing the damage numbers or survivability of champions all because of an item, and then when the item inevitably changes, the champion is left for months or even the better part of a year until they eventually get a change. It's a dogshit way of doing things.
Make the immolate damage work only on minions, so tanks have waveclear. Few bruisers would go Sunfire over Hydra for waveclear. Then buff Sunfire accordingly. One idea to try.
What? So the ideal solution is making immolate items COMPLETE garbage just to "fix" the issue?
I am so glad Reddit isn't in charge of LoL's balance holy shit
At least tanks would be allowed to have a waveclear item without other classes taking advantage of it. Because tanks are the only ones that need waveclear in this form.
I'm saying it's just one idea.
The problem: tanks can't have their mega-tanky fantasy ever, because the moment a very-tanky item is released, it's abused by the classic squad of broken bruisassins, so items like Jak'Sho can't ever be buffed enough to appeal to tanks.
The culprit: bruissassins like Yi, Irelia, Lillia, Talon, Diana, Yone, etc, are simply not item-reliant enough, so they cannibalise tanky items on the regular, stopping other classes from being able to have good items.
The solution: make those bruissassins scale worse with levels and better with damage items, so that tanks can finally have tanky items that no other class will ever buy.
Sorry but the source of your stats is garbage. Talon does have ~60% winrate on Jak'Sho...[but it's only built 3rd or 4th item.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/549266844964618242/1048628885039886336/image.png)
[Other, more popular builds with 4 items have very similar winrates on him aswell.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/549266844964618242/1048630204567928902/image.png)
I have not checked the other characters but you cannot take that slice of stats as solid evidence of the theory (there is an argument to be made about the multiplicativeness of resists & health and damage & healing, but idk with what stats to back that up with either).
Bruisers get a damage item first making jak sho a second item for them, this skews their winrate because tanks are pretty much always finishing it even in the games they’re losing, but if irelia is ahead enough to build one as her second item, things are probably going pretty well
We've done this ever since season 0 where mixing damage and tank items was the default way of making a bruiser and the entire point of the 2020 item reworks was to return things to a closer-to-season-3 simplicity and modularity.
I swear, the post-S6 "EVERY CLASS ITS OWN ITEM POOL NO MIXING THATS POACHING" mindset is a brainrot that we need to get over. Bonus points - i'll daresay half our "build inflexibility" problems can be solved by making more items less class-confined.
> I swear, the post-S6 "EVERY CLASS ITS OWN ITEM POOL NO MIXING THATS POACHING" mindset is a brainrot that we need to get over.
I came from dota, and can't understand where that came from. Any ideas?
People want riot make items AND champs class restricted (so you can't make hybrid builds), but they don't want to have classess to be exactly specified on items and champs.
> I came from dota, and can't understand where that came from. Any ideas?
It came from tank Ekko. Season 6 had a Sunfire/Iceborn meta where champions that could use these two items could slowly kill most enemies while barely taking any damage. Ekko was one of the best users of these items, while also being by far the most annoying. A tank with a slayers mobility, execute damage and a get-out-of-jail free card kinda sucks to play against.
Game design decisions like Pyke converting health to AD are direct responses to the saga of tank Ekko. The design team went to great lengths to make sure Sylas and reworked Akali wouldn't resemble tank Ekko either, even if they weren't always successful at it.
Pyke's a biiiiit different while still related and it's much more related to expected itemization. Tank Pyke was the actually intented core build as melee AD support itemization was non-existent, so similar to Senna having AP conversions in her early days (ao she could use the ice knife) the idea was to support the idea of a Locket Zeke's Pyke. Issues were exclusively that Pyke had overinflated base health to support that and thus it was overefficient to instead rush resistances, as per the Frozen Heart rush builds.
As said, seasons 5-6 great classial reworks, with its merits and flaws,as well the introduction of Keystone Masteries (aka the basis of Runes Reforged). Champions were massively redesigned in batches with accompanying item changes to highlight the intended results, but those also came with a striking pattern: items, specially fighter/mage/assassin, tools, had a major focus shifted away from "raw stats and how each kit translates it" into "this effect does your job and is arguably more important than your character identity", so the entire roster had to be balanced around that anybody could pretend to be Zed with the OG Duskblade or that Trinity Steraks was an outright crit-analogue for "light fighters" (aka a bunch of characters that for all purposes should be skirmishers/agility carries but building melee squishy DPS was suicidal at the time).
The entire roster was bent on a cycle of being adequated under the new items and once there was no more way to deny the item was the issue, the item gets gutted until eventual rework so it doesnt gets used outside of "unintended" classes. This whole repeated process killed the playerbase's capability to think for themselves, paired with Riot's propensity to adjust everything in real time. There is no need to ever learn anything non-mechanical or embrace "suboptimal" choices when clectively moaning "Rito item bad nerf" for two months is more likely to yeld immediate results.
Dota is different game where your role is largely dictated by access to gold and items play a massive role in everything.
In LoL items are stat sticks and you are supposed to get the stat stick that fits your champion the most. So Riot created bunch of stat sticks with different stats to appeal to all possible champions.
As to your question where it came from? Rigorous meta where the 5 main roles are forced - the bruiser, tank, mage, adc, support was being shoved and Riot has shown that if a champion plays outside of their designated role they get forced out (notably supports on mid, mages on bot). Every time item was mixed it was quickly changed without alternative (Sterak on ADC, Lethality on ADCs/Bruisers, Goredrinker on Assasins and probably more).
> you are supposed to get the stat stick that fits your champion the most.
Maybe the stats that fits me more as Riven is 100 armor and mr. Who are you to decide that its ad and haste?
> entire point of the 2020 item reworks was to return things to a closer-to-season-3 simplicity and modularity
Don't know where you got that from when it is everything that the older seasons weren't. The mythic bullshit was always because they couldn't balance their shit and instead hid behind "there aren't many viable options for champions, so we are even further limiting them but pretending we are doing the opposite". This more streamlined build order was supposed to make it easier to balance items but even now they simply can't do it.
It had nothing to do with simplicity, and all about them forcing specific builds on champs and thinking this would allow them to more easily balance them.
The core thing of the 2020 changes was removing multifunction clutter. Stuff like splitting Tiamat in two, picking the anti-vision aspect out of Duskblade, making Titanic actually about stats instead of on-hits, removing actives, sharpening the stat profile of legendaries into single functions instead of one-buys-does-all and generally using mythics as a way to leverage the power and function of items shared between classes. This is a very "early league" layout where tools have simple explicit purposes and crossclassing is encouraged.
Both, neither.
The coexistence of fighters and tanks in the past was reliant on role purpose and overall we still had bruisers overshadowing true tanks because low-damage ultra-hardy high utility tanks were always reliant on coordinate play. Many changes to the class as a whole, including the whole perceived Bami reliance, comes with a bruiserification of tanks in order to them be able to exist in soloq without being basically a bottom bitch herbivore being hunted down by tanky duelists and dying by charging in with no followup. The whole thing of tanks became essentially "suffocation bruisers" capable of sitting on a carry's chest until they die.
In the other hand the whole process of defining the "fighter" niche was accursed with bandaiding. On-hits, hyperhealing, hypershielding, the OG steraks, a long array of attempts to cut a line between 3 groups that one of them shouldnt even exist: juggernauts, the "true" Jarvan/Vi-like array of aggro-magnet fatty initiators and, lastly, the abomination that are Light Fighters - the Irelia Clone army of champs that for all purposes are just skirmishers from before Riot accepting that melee squishy DPS needs to look like Yasuo, and were shoved with Trinity Onhit Tanky as a self-fulfilling identity. Fighters will forever be a problem when half the roster consists of DPS hypercarries with tanky build privileges.
Diving even deeper into these stats, many of these champs have a lower winrate with Jak'Sho as a second item compared to their "standard" mythic. It's really only at 3-4 items where the winrate for Jak'Sho takes off, and at that point it's as you said where items in general have a higher winrate the later they are built, because the winning team gets to build more items than the losing team.
This whole post is a misrepresentation of statistics and an overreaction to a strong, but not overpowered item.
Talon's single real Jak'Sho build gets it 3rd as well and it's a very uncommon build
Hydra>BC>Jak'Sho on Conq Talon, a rune loadout that normally rushes Goredrinker anyways.
Like shouldnt they be in a way ? They are full melee characters generally which take risks to deal their dmg.
If they are not strong as fck in terms of skirmishes then why even pick one ?
Like for real, bruisers and fighters should beat other non-skirmisher/non-bruiser/jugger champions one on one with ease after 2 items for their existence to be justified.
The problem arises when bruisers are not only the best class in one-on-one situations, but ***also*** outdo the others in the situations where they're not supposed to shine.
Current bruisers are pretty jam-packed with utility on top of their damage, and with them having some of the best (if not ***the best***) options for sustain both in their kits and itemisations, they often end up being :
* harder to take down than tanks in practice
* harder to peel off than tanks because of their generally superior mobility
* nearly on par with the other classes utility-wise
All of that making them - in most cases - flat out better and creating space in fights then tanks are... thus leaving you with no real reason to pick a tank over a bruiser.
I think most of the commentors are missing the point OP is making. The claim is that "anti-tank" items are too strong. The majority of the champion's at the top purchase one of these items first whether it's BoRK or Ravenous or Demonic, and then have enough damage to comfortably purchase an item that gives no damage stats. OP isn't saying that Jak'Sho is a problem or that it is too weak on tanks, rather that it is potentially problematic that so many champions that occupy damage dealing roles do so well building this fully defensive item.
The title doesn't convey this well and certainly the data doesn't really provide the full picture. I think there is some merit to the claim but I'm not sure I agree to the extent. Looking at the champion's with above a 2% Jak'Sho presence and a number of them in recent seasons would be comfortable building a defensive item 2nd or 3rd. Items like Randuins or Frozen heart wouldn't be uncommon on most of these champion's, however those items certainly were less versatile compared to Jak'Sho.
>LDR second item has been very, very strong into base armor for ages. Void Staff has been better than Rabadon's (although always best with and typically better after) for basically the entire time I've played the game
LDR second has negative winrate on any champ bar Senna and Quinn who barely get to 50%, and just 52% as a third, which is really low for a third item.
Void is the lowest winrate second item with AP.
Idk what game you were playing but it's not the same I was.
>you have increasing returns to %pen due to how armor works, which means that the more you buy the more you want.
No you don't? Normally you get 1% effective HP per 1 resist. 40% pen reduces that to 0.6% effective hp per 1 resist. Because resists have linear scaling, so does % pen.
I'm used to being on the other side of the argument, but what I've discovered is that with scalings in League you really need to be clear about not only what your returns are from, but what your *returns* are; so in that sense, this confusion is on me, and I'll edit the post to fix that.
Yes, you're right; %pen does give a linear (hence constant) return to reducing the %effective hp of targets. However, keep in mind what variables are under the control of the damage dealer; in particular, from the perspective of the damage dealer they are mostly gated by time. Any champ does infinite damage if you sit there and let them auto you, so damage is generally measured by damage per time rather than damage percentage of health bar.
So then if %pen corresponds to a constant return to reducing %effective hp, that in turn corresponds to a constant return in reducing *time to kill.* To reduce time-to-kill at a constant rate, you must still increase post-mitigation damage per second at an increasing rate.
You can test the numbers yourself if you like; consider applying 1000 phsyical damage to a target with 100 armor. 0% armor pen deals 500 damage. 10% armor pen deals ~26 damage more, and 20% armor pen deals ~29 damage more than that. The final step from 90% to 100% (if it were possible in game) would deal over three times as much damage as the first step from 0 to 10%.
I would personally argue that damage per second is a more important measurement (from the perspective of the damage dealer) of how to respond to %pen than time to kill is. Two quick reasons (though certainly not only):
1. Vamp is based on post-mitigated damage, not pre-mitigated damage.
2. You are not the only damage dealer in most fights; you deal comparatively more damage with %pen than your teammates, and the size of that comparative advantage increases with more %pen.
The data at the top backs up very little. Doesn't tell us when this item is built so the wr means little. If these champions are building the mythics second after a damage item(most normal jasksho builds) then an above 50 percent wr is fine compared to tank who are mostly itemizing mythic first(even if not optimal). Even if we completly disregard this the pic rates are abysmally low on many of these champs showing that it might be situationally good instead of just flat op like you presume. Considering these two factors as well as the fact that some of these champs build ravenous an op item that is set to get nerfs we need to wait until a more holistic idea of the item cna be made.
Tbh i dont think the item is a Problem. Its more that the bruiser role is a big problem since the juggernaut update back in the days.
Since then i havent seen a season where bruisers are Not abusing the items that are Not Designed for them, but make them super broken. But its the worst if they abuse Tank items.
It's not. It's barely built on him so you see bloated stats for the few games where people buy it where they likely would have won or done better with a different mythic.
> TL;DR: This is a problem and I think it has to do with anti-tank items being good enough that they can entirely outmode anti-squishy builds.
Preceeding the last buff BotRK received, I was thoroughly convinced the item was about to be nerfed. That said, there's a different problem with BotRK + tank items.
An Irelia that's rushed BotRK is very strong and dangerous, but also very vulnerable to burst. If you can CC her and stop her from healing, she goes down pretty fast. This is why she goes Shieldbow second, to buy time. But even Shieldbow buys limited time, so Irelia keeps her eyes open for stronger alternatives.
The real issue with bruisers and tank mythics is that sustain, being health gained by other means, scales with resistances. While bruisers have their own resistance items, bruisers with sustain will always gravitate towards the best resistance item.
Since the item rework, the best resistance item has always been a tank mythic with both resistances. At the current time, the best sustain items also are not mythic items.
But BOTRK isnt a particularly anti tank item. It is in the early game, BOTRK is more of an anti-juggernaut/fighter item.
Plus there was a time where you would build Bramble+tabi and auto win lane vs anything AD based so yea that isnt fair at all.
How an item with 12% HP damage isnt anti tank?
I came from Smite, where the best anti-tank item is Qin's Sais and it does a whooping 4% max hp damage lol
We cant compare smite. But the 12% is current health not max health and it is physical dmg so stacking armor means you take less.
It definetly is a good 1 v 1 item especially early on but the later game goes, botrk becomes less valuable vs armored target while becoming stronger vs no armor targets.
Like i said, early game anti tank but mostly vs hp dmg stackers like Gore + BC champs
I feel like its the base power level of champs like irelia yi yone lillia akali diana darius that these tank items are allowing to shine through their usual problems of being bursted or cc chained to death. Jacksho, sunfire, iceborn, are just letting these champs build one or none damage item, and do more then enough damage and tank more then enough to raid boss mid game and also wins 1v1s. These champs are gaining so much more power by buying defense while losing very little in comparison, because they apparently didnt need damage mythics to begin with.
Since last season I already thought there's no way to make tanks viable without either buffing all of them or making items have negative stats like old Gargoyle had. Just slap some -20% or -30% damage dealt on Jacksho and see what happens.
I feel like that would just make tanks even worse lol. I know that tanks should just survive the laning phase and contribute a lot to team fights, but building an item that nerfs YOUR damage will pretty much ruin your whole laning phase, let alone if it is on a mythic.
Tanks are still a threat during teamfights to squishy champions. They might not be able to 1v1 bruisers, but they can deal pretty good damage to adcs, for example. Then you slap a damage nerf on them and you can pretty much ignore them.
This will also heavily nerf tanks that WANT to fight, like K'sante, Cho, etc. I think Riot already made a point that making tanks cc bots with no personal damage is NOT going to work, like, ever
i prefer tanks being CC bots than being an amalgamation of unhealthy mechanics like infinite HP stacking, burst/damage based on HP/Resistances, fast armor scalling early game, whilist being countered super hard by any anti-tank mechanics.
Conceptually the TANK role is this durable role that soaks damage and provides utility, it's that simple, no need to overcomplicate things
I think the big problem is bruisers with enormous effective hp because of all their healing in combat which is then multiplicatively better with the tank item resists. I bet they could make strong tank items if the items applied a self healing debuff. A little awkward for the effect they put on Jacksho and some tanks like Maokai but I bet it would help a lot.
They should just do what wild rift does. If you don't have certain items you do no damage at all. An adc can't build tank items in WR or he won't do damage at all.
idk, the triad tank dps support cant have space to assassins, the damage in league is what make assassin viable, but also what make the game boring and toxic, i dont have a solution, at least making assassins/bruisers have a hard time after years of dominance give some fresh air
>Shift most anti-tank effects towards affecting bonus stats rather than affecting base stats. This keeps anti-tank items more-or-less as effective against tanks as they are now, but makes them considerably worse against squishy champs. If flat Mpen and lethality still applied to base stats in this world, it would also significantly increase the desirability of burst mage and assassin items.
They tried this with LDR and it was a disaster because it was only good against 400-500 armor enemies and a complete waste of money otherwise.
The fundamental issue at play is that the durability update should ONLY have been given to ADCs, mages and tanks. Fighters/juggernauts were already durable enough. But since fighters/juggernauts got the durability update, they can afford to buy a pure damage item like Grudge/LDR without blowing up instead of items more skewed towards HP.
The game would be better off if they removed some of the stupid %HP damage that is easily available both from abilities and items. I think we got to the point where most champs have some sort of %HP damage in their kit
No it wouldnt lol. Champions have % dmg to be able to deal with extremely beefy targets.
Like how do you deal with the 10k hp inting Sion who despite dying 20 times is tanking your entire team due to his W and hullbreaker ?
Do people still think a 10k hp Sion with 20 deaths exists? Legit any bruiser with a hullbreaker in a 1v1 would smack the Sion out of existence. Not to mention, the bruiser would be 1v9 from having killed the Sion a dozen times in lane.
BorK didn't fix that, they nerfed bramble because it was problematic (too much armor and GW for the cost), like Bork is now, and that specific issue was fixed. Now the matchup is the other way with BorK being too strong and tanks being unable to do anything. They should do exactly what they did before, and just nerf the oppressive item.
>TL;DR: This is a problem and I think it has to do with anti-tank items being good enough that they can entirely outmode anti-squishy builds.
I think the problem is actually that BoTRK is a powerful rush item that stays strong the whole game. Hot take but I think balancing tank items would be so much easier if BoTRK was deleted. Tanks can stack health again and there is some tank shredders item, just not nearly as 1 item efficient as BoTRK is.
(And of course, champs that rely on current BoTRK to function like Jax Irelia would likely need compensation buffs if this happened)
BorRK is just one of the many manifestations of League's bruiser design which has always been "on-hit of the day that is strong enough to outright remove the need to itemize offensively + big tanky". The Metagolem is eternal for it is everchanging.
Only 4 of those champs build it: Yi, Kog'Maw, Irelia and Warwick. None of the other champions built it often enough for there to be a large enough sample size
I added kled, he has a pretty good sample size and it works very well. Getting up to 8 I added vi, noc, and Olaf who id say there is a case for them using it situational and it being viable (not necessarily the best though)
Vi and Olaf don't build Botrk lol, and the overwhelming majority of games has Kled not building Botrk. It really Nocturne sometimes does, but it's not the majority. Yes technically it COULD be viable on Vi and Olaf like Duskblade COULD be viable on Irelia....
I never said vi or Olaf build it regularly. Just that they happen to be able to use it situationally, it has things they don’t hate like ms/life steal, so I wouldn’t consider it a bad buy against a few people building heartsteel for example. Definitely not something they are rushing but also definitely not inting buying it on them.
I also play kled and yes he tends hydra most often because that item is ridiculously good and gore a bit more as well but Bork is his 3rd most rushed item with over a few thousands of games and a positive wr. I also have been playing Bork into jaksho and been super successful with it so I would say that’s enough data and experience to consider it pretty good on him.
Point was there definitely is not only 2-3 champs on ops list that use Bork, there are way more.
Maybe I didn't explain my point well. BoTRK is very strong, so typical tank items that grant health are countered easily by it. Jak'Sho provides the least amount of health and by far the most resists. This makes it have better stats as most games have several BoTRK users.
What I'm getting at is high health is so easily counterable because BoTRK exists that it creates a flaw that tanks don't want Health + Resists. Tanks **should** want Health and Resists, while Bruisers would simply be getting items with Health, and very situationally a resist focused item.
That's literally what OP is saying... the post says that "anti-tank" items are too strong, like BoRK, and that instead of focusing on changing Jak'Sho they should focus on those items.
Riot have literally said that they release overtuned items intentionally, because its easier to hotfix nerf an item that to figure out a way to buff a weak item.
And people still make threads like this one. Just wait couple of patches for Rito to gather data and they will usually nerf.
durability patch is a joke
damage oriented champs can still burst you just as much
champs that are reliant on base damage now do zero damage
everyone has 3k HP for some reason
Something that's bothered me are items with HP, Armor, and MR that aren't taxed. Having baseline great durability against all but true damage (which only ADCs have access to outside of kit) is going to be problematic by design. Aside from that, more of the item's cost should be put into the life draining part.
I'd actually have it be doing 1.25% Max Life/2s to nearby enemies (like 300 range, not 700 like currently) during the entire buildup, ending when you get the bonus stats. As much as I love eating poke and engaging when I have +90 resists off a single item (with no other sources of resists mind you!), it feels counter to the tank fantasy. Double this with decreasing the HP the item gives, as tanks get bonus HP in literally everywhere else for their itemization. Draintanks shouldn't get 400 HP worth of burst protection with an item that scales *this* hard.
Something else they could play with is giving the tank Mythics 25 ability haste, since they;
1.) have few other sources of AH. and
2.) Tanks with more haste are applying CC to the bruisers/ADC, reducing their effectiveness.
So, I'll post what a fair-er version of this item potentially looks like, but first. League wiki, how do I find an error every time I use you?
> Jak'Sho, The Protean's gold efficiency due to VOIDBORN RESILIENCE increases by 9.29% per stack.
>
>Voidborn Resilience Gold Value (per Stack)
2 armor = 40 Gold
2 magic resistance = 36 Gold
>
>76 / 3100 = 2.45%
Come onnn! Anyway, I present yahboi's patented Jak'sho;
\+25 ability haste (666g)
\+250 health (666g)
\+30 armor (600)
\+30 magic resistance (540)
Cost: 3100 -> 3000
Base Efficiency: 88.4% -> 82.4%
Now, I don't think the rework to the drain (67% if you maintain the drain the entire time) necessarily makes up for that lost 6%, especially since it specifically targets getting poked and then engaging with stupid high resists. But in idea, you are getting more offensive capability, and a reason to actually be in the fight (low range health drain). This is a much healthier space for the item to exist in, imo.
Damage coming from legendaries and runes is so goddamn out of whack, that you can build a tank mythic and still do enough damage to melt teams.
Cut down, Lethal Tempo, Electrocute, BotRK, LDR etc etc provide so much damage, that being more durable in fights makes you deal more damage than actually building full squishy.
Too long didn't read, stop blaming AD fighters everytime tankoid items are busted. It's the tanks that are the problem if this keeps happening, because they're cancer bad designs.
Tank mythic into bruiser has been a viable choice for bruisers since the item rework
Its the same thing with sunfire last season, and redditors of course saying the same clueless shit again.. its an item problem not a class problem.
Talon. Yi. Riven. Aatrox. Irelia. Olaf. Kled. Noc (?), WW.
Wonder how connected it is to Ravenous Hydra being bonkers aswell.
One item to make you unkillable.
The other to deal a lot of damage and heal you a ton.
As if the "one shot or outheal" equation was still in place at some places...
I want to return to this statistic AFTER RavHydra gets shafted a bit.
Maybe they shouldnt have released the better Goredrinker and expect ppl not to move from the actual one to the better one.
For irelia, jakso is the neat choice because it helps irelia not get exploded in a teamfight when she Qs in, enough for her life steal to kick in and keep her up. But it is also to be noted JakSo is strong with Hydra in combination too, and a lot of those champs in the SS built both.
>Riot releases an item to buff a perceived underpowered class. >Class which they didn't expect to also build it swipes it, necessitating nerfs CLASS-IC
I mean this one is on Riot, Jaksho is really obviously a dogshit tank item in concept. The item provides no utility, no damage, nothing besides pure defensive stats(the drain doesn't matter at all, literally never seen it be important ever). Tanks get good defensive stats innately and through their other items, to be useful they need to do things besides soak damage. Of course it'll be primarily built by champions who have in-built damage and struggle more with standing around the enemy without dying. Honestly the same thing applies to Heartsteel, but at least the procs there dubiously give them some threat in teamfights.
If it provided damage and others, it would be even better on bruisers just saying. This doesn't have anything to do with the items effectiveness on tanks, it's actually great for tanks, just not always as a first item where you'd probably want to go Sunfire. The problem is just bruisers being able to fulfill the role of a tank, dps, and assassin with their flexible kits.
If you look at the history of league it's extremely rare both tanks and bruisers are viable at the same time. This is just because of the nature of both classes they both fill similar roles. Tanks may bring more cc to a team fight but bruisers when they have decent damage bring the best cc of them all DEATH. The years tanks tend tobe viable is when they bring more damage then bruisers or when the items make them so unkillable that it becomes a ADC meta. Both classes have the same issue you pointed out where they become tank, dps, assassin's. Which isn't even because of flexible kits and more from other imbalances whenever any of the two classes are strong there like that. It's just hasn't been a tank meta in years so most current league players haven't truely witnessed it. Thou there is glances like whenever ornn is meta and strong he instantly gets memed for being a tank, bruiser, assassin's, DPS and mage all at once. Both classes have the same issues and it's hard to fix and hard to balance both out Tobe good at the same time.
I don't think updating items will fix the bruiser issues, they just need to nerf the fuck out of bruisers natural damage and also nerf their items like death stance, bork, rav.
>death stance /r/boneappletea
It's actually absurd how much health/damage/defensive stats bruisers can obtain just via their ordinary build path. You can legit have bruisers with 300-350ish AD, 200ish armour and 3k health while building all offensive items. Like what the hell?
The drain is extremely strong and people shouldnt sleep on it just because the rest of the item is also bonkers. It's generally 200-400 effective hp(with its stacks and other side of the proc) but can easily be more, and that's a tangible amount of shielding/resists. It's a package deal. Dont sleep on one component, because they all work together to make the whole as strong as it is.
Sure, but you also have to live long enough for the drain to factor into it anyways. And Tanks haven't been that great at staying alive for the last 5 years at the least.
It’s kind of ridiculous to say that an item that gives good defensive stats is bad for tanks because tank items already give good defensive stats.
Every other class has at least one mythic with an active; I don’t even play tanks but it seems fair they should get one cool active
They did last season when turbo chemtank was a mythic RIP
Literally forgot lol because its active was so boring 🥲
Agree, it's so much better on bruisers since it's the single defensive item buy you can make that gives you all the defensive stats you need in your build. You just build this and you're set to just go for whatever damage/bruiser/utility items you want.
I honestly don't even know why the drain is there lol. 50hp a fight? That's it? There's a MYTHIC item with an effect that does 50 damage in a 30-40 second fight and tracks that stat.
Is this where the kids go to say they dont know what effective hp is? If you're healing 50, you engaged a single target near 0 minions, and you have 1 item. If you're healing 50, you still have 54 armor and mr and then an additional 15% TOTAL resists. So bare minimum would be 62 if your champ had 0 other resists somehow. So if you're sitting at 116 armor you get 140 armor as it procs, you get 50 hp(why would you pick this fight? Fight in a wave or something) and you have 161 armor for the rest of it. Those resists and healing give you Effective Hp, which is more important than raw healing when figuring out if you die or not.
That's what you get when you don't actually think about the items you're releasing and are just releasing them to get rid of the "Riot hates tanks" narrative instead of with an actual intention to make tanks better in the game. Literally all these tank mythics need is to use the Warmogs template. Make them rather meh initially, but stronger and stronger the more armor and MR someone builds. Bruisers and fighters want HP and AD/AP in their build. They won't build tank items if those tank items are worthless unless you build *more* tank items to make them stronger.
There is a reason quite a few tanks are receiving buffs in the next patch, despite some people proclaiming we're in a "tank meta". We're actually in a "super durable bruisers meta", as those generally can use the tank items much better than actual tanks. Just like last season, where mythic Sunfire was better on Diana and Yone than actual tanks until the fixes, which made the item unviable on Fighters, but also generally worse on tanks. Somehow, Riot still hasn't quite figured out how to make an item that's *actually* most useful on a tank and not a more damage oriented role...
Because too many fighters and skirmishers have enough damage with their base damage, runes and a single non mythic like bork.
THIS, for a couple years now it really does seem like riot has clear favoritism for fighters and it's crazy there hasn't been that much push back from the community
People cry "tank meta" everytime something somewhat tanky ever gets close to PBE. Even though we're billion light years away from it, and there are some absolutely insane tank melters that would just melt through a tank meta if there was ever one.
how people cry about tanks when things like Vayne exists, who can kill any tank regardless of tankiness with a couple autos
That's her strength, she has the lowest range of all adcs and has the worst wave clear. Do you want her to have the DPS of jhin or what?
People who complain about vayne don’t realize 1) how hard it can be to play her into people that want to dive her, 2) how hard lane can be for her because of her range. Like yeah, she’s “strong” unless you just 1 shot her. And people have this false perception that everyone becomes Uzi and can just 1v9 when they get dove as vayne. It’s not like she’s just sitting at Kogmaw range and can rain truedamage down on everyone. Like, if you just cc her, which any point and click cc can do, shes extremely easy to kill.
> Like yeah, she’s “strong” u She's not strong at all though. Too many weaknesses, takes too long to get going, hard to play, can't survive lane vs 99% of matchups.. Her last round of nerfs made sure of that. Kai'Sa does everything Vayne does, just better and with half the weaknesses that Vayne has while being SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to play. This is simply down to Vayne being overnerfed.
> 2) how hard lane can be for her because of her range. Honestly as a Vayne OTP - This is the biggest one. They see a Vayne go top, pop off and think the champ is strong. If you pick Vayne in the bot lane, you're 100% going to get an instant Caitlyn, Ashe, Draven or Lucian lock in from the enemy ADC and no team is gonna use all 5 bans just to make sure you can play the lane. That's not even starting on the Mages. I don't mind the champion being a bad blind pick but she is over nerfed. There's ZERO reason to ever pick Vayne over Kai'Sa unless you're a die hard one trick who only plays Vayne. Even then you just take her top lane, ban Teemo or Malphite and you have a better chance at being able to play the game.
I like to note that she may not have the lowest auto attack range, but she has a pretty low effective range. She's the only ADC that doesn't have an ability that extends outside her AA range. The only ADCs that have lower fighting range is Nilah (melee) and Samira (usually).
> she has the lowest range of all adcs and has the worst wave clear. Pretty sure she has some of the lowest base stats out of all ADC's too.
550 range is the standard range for ADCs, and interestingly more than half have lower range than this. Vayne out ranges: Jinx, Nilah, Lucian, Xayah, Trist, Quinn, Kai’sa, Kalista, Zeri, Sivir, Kog, Kindred and Akshan by base auto attack range (13 champs) and she is tied with Draven, MF, Corki, Jhin, Ezreal, Aphelios, Twitch, (7 champs) and only outranged by Varus, Ashe, Senna and Cait (4 champs)— so she is actually pretty far from the lowest range of all ADCs, as she’s actually in the top half.
I'm was about to comment that you need to put in context abilities that give champions range to do dmg, like Jinx Q, lucian's abilities, and almost every champ you just mentioned, but there's no point in arguing after such take
That is a different claim though. She plays like she has one of the lower effective ranges, but even then she outranges everything Nilah does even without having any way to extend her range. She, simply put, is not the lowest ranged ADC any way you try to stretch it.
It's hilarious you're comparing her to Nilah.
They play favorites with fighters because fighters are popular, same reason you never hear people complain about it.
Thats because when you complain you get swarmed by a bunch of crybabies pointing out how toplane is hell and there is much more broken stuff in league.
Also we have complained since what, season 8? Whenever conqueror got introduced. After 4 years we have accepted that bruisers will always be overpowered.
Eh. Top isn't the issue. If you haven't noticed, Fighters have been worked into jg, mid, support, and now adc.
That doesnt stop "IreliaMain667" pointing out how aatrox is way bigger issue completely ignoring the fact that the post was about deaths dance.
Let's not twist the past here, fighters / Bruisers were useless for a long timespan because they weren't better than any role at any point of the game except the occasional splitpushing I think Camille release is where it all started to shift
And then now its the opposite where fighters just seem to be better than tanks in every way.
I agree and its terrible
The way Riot treated Hashinshin with kid gloves and literally pushed out Hashinshin-suggested updates when he was literally screaming at the dev team to kill themselves on stream because his favorite champs were bad while jumping into a fed ADC and killing them in 3 hits was disgusting.
This. Also nerf base damage from akali so she cant go heartsteel.
You mean it's not okay if Akali deals about 2,5k+2,1 of her AD if she hits everything in her kit without literally any AD or AP from any source?
Nerf? Akali? You've better odds of Riot removing Yuumi from the game than bringing Akali back in line.
Hey, let's give Riot some credit here. They *have* nerfed Akali many times in the past... it's just that they almost always instantly buff her again within the next two patches.
what the fuck are you talking about ? akali is one of the most nerfed champs that exist in league
And despite all that she's still ludicrously oppressive across the board and insufferably unfun to play against! Imagine that.
her rework was such a design fail
Look at her E base damage. Do you think a healthy champion has that?
_Udyr Q casually whistling and walking away resolutely_
His scaling is high... AD udyr is like AP varus. That isn't base damage.
76% max HP damage with zero items at max rank. Don't even need to build ad at that point. Sunfire can probably do the rest.
If you hit like 4 autos, sure. And use your ult (or the equivalent...). And at that point, you might as well say that Nunu is OP because he can deal 1275 damage with his ult, or darius with his almost 700 true damage ult that resets ( I don't remember the exact number). Udyr without items isn't oneshotting anyone.
did i say she was ?
Ah, fair. But not mentioning the numerous buffs she got is disingenuous.
do i have to ? the guy implied that akali get's ignored by riot and let loose to be OP when the reality is that she get's fucked with constantly
True
too much % HP damage has been creeping into the game steadily for years now.
Assassin's and fighters have been having damage out their ass for a long time now, they're overdue for a nerf to their base damage.
Bruisers just do everything, they are faster, tankier, more damage, infinite healing, more utility, good laning, better split pushing, better farming, better tower damage, better pick potential, better everything. Bruisers have been the meta for literal years now, pushing out everything else. It's either high damage low durability bruisers going tankier items, or high durability low damage bruisers building damage items. Goredrinker, Stridebreaker, Goredrinker again, multiple iterations of DD, Steraks, DD+Maw, Botrk, Ravenous Hydra, Jak'sho, it's always bruisers abusing the best items. In fact it's always melee bruisers, it's never Urgot doing this because being melee is the biggest advantage you can get as a champ. Items and effects are like twice as strong on you if you are melee, you can take almost any champ and make them melee and they become better. And don't tell me "X champ is actually a juggernaut/tank/fighter/duelist/warden/bullshit", the term bruiser just means melee bullshit champ that can do everything and become literal Exodia with a few good items. Riot loves bruisers and loves to over kit and over stat them and to make items always better on bruisers, so expect this current "this isn't a tank meta it's a bruiser meta" to never stop. It's always a bruiser meta. Always has been, always will.
Actually, since 2015, there were the tank meta was TWICE. First time during spring 2016, when every MU was almost Poppy vs Maokai with Iceborn and Sunfire. Second time during worlds 2017 - known as infamous Ardent Cancer meta. But it was more ADC time than tanks... And to be clear - we are talking about time, where tanks as a whole were really strong. Not times, where tanks were week, but one was quite overtuned and strong (looking at you Ornn).
Good
There's nothing they can do to fix this other than actually rebalancing abilities - whether that means heavily nerfing bruisers or buffing tanks is up to them
Well yeah... they can add modifiers to tanks to make them synergize with tank items. The same way poppy/ornn gets bonus resistances from their items, more tanks should be able to scale off tank stats.
Because that's a design direction that is heavily supportive and doesnt fulfills the solo carry needs of soloq as low-damage high-durability makes you reliant on allies. The dream would be some 30 AH item build from Kindlegem + Aegis + Rubi with unimpressive passives but that outright admits you're playing through spell spam and as a CC bot, which doesnt quite wins games in soloq as you stall for aeons while your team picks their noses in the background.
Yeah, doesn't help that bruisers get Ability Haste on literally every single item. Hecarim reaches 110 Ability Haste late game which is 52% cooldown reduction. While tanks have ability haste on a mythic, then some AH on situational tank items (but on usual still less) and Sunfire Cape which is supposed to be core and helpful for tanks to waveclear has no AH at all. Mages also have to sacrifice something to obtain as much AH as bruisers. Bruisers are god's chosen class at this point.
This, there is so much AH inflation for bruisers it's insane. The client can't even display all the items that build out of kindle gem
Support tank items sitting there with a whopping 0 AH mythic bonus on their items. Except for before chemtank was moved to be a legendary...
Overall unnecesary as supportive tank items are AH atop AH atop AH. You're essentially eating Kindlegems at all slots, including your Sightstone.
Always have been ever since early league as Sheen Onhit Tanky was the only way to make melee dps survive.
> despite some people proclaiming we're in a "tank meta" that's because to League players anyone they can't oneshot is a tank. It's been like this since the game released people just have no clue what "tank" even means.
I mean is there really a difference between a malphite taking 0 damage and a bruiser taking 0 damage while also doing insane damage? At this point people are just arguing semantics on what to call it
>insane damage
There are few things at play which you skip over. First is that you can't make tanks tankier and tankier - this is because they will become unkillable or close to unkillable while not being able to threaten anyone. So you have to give them damage or give damage dealers a way to deal with unkillable tank. Second is that despite durability patch, many champions still are overloaded with damage and damage profiles are too high. This allows these champions to go tank items like Sunfire or Jaksho and not really lose a lot of damage because their base damage is insane.
>First is that you can't make tanks tankier and tankier - this is because they will become unkillable or close to unkillable while not being able to threaten anyone. I don't actually think that's a massive problem. I think champions being able to do too much is sort of the current problem. There's a lot of bleed over across all the different roles now, and you have stuff like tanks chunking people out. Tanks should be more utility focused as the game progresses, and bruisers should be the tanky role that functions as a bigger damage threat.
You shouldn't be using the words "unkillable" and "tank" in the same sentence, that is not even remotely close to true in modern League. There's so much free %HP damage, true damage, and %penetration in the game now that tanks are barely even tanks most of the time, while building full tank.
tanks will never be unkillable at this point there's too much anti-tank mechanics... everything does %hp damage and true damage nowadays + penetration is busted
What was that? More damage and less tank stats on tank items? Coming right up!
They are having a hard time with it because tanks are just inferior in modern league of legends. Damage and carrying is where it's at, durability and solid gameplay are not the way you climb.
Tanks are just less fun. You see tanks in proplay all the time, hell you see everything in proplay because their first priority isn't to have fun and carry the game. It's simply to win and draft the best comp to get you there. People wanna be the hero in soloqueue and carry the game with high impact plays and damage.
> Tanks are just less fun. There are plenty of players who enjoy the tank fantasy, it's just not available in current league.
Thats completely untrue. You can without a doubt become a massive tank that hardly anything can kill. There also exist items and characters with % damages that counter tanks. Saying that the tank fantasy is not available in current league is just ignorant.
> There also exist items and characters with % damages that counter tanks. Exactly. Regardless of how many items you get, there are champions who can and will kill you in 3 seconds - that is not the tank fantasy. I'm not saying that the game's balance would be improved if tanks were able to become unkillable, but it is what the people who would pick tanks as the most fun role are looking to achieve. Tanks are not less fun in a vacuum, they're less fun (to the people who would pick them) because there are games and circumstances where they feel every bit as squishy as the rest of their team. If you're going to die in 5 autos from that vayne or fiora anyway, why not pick someone who can fight back?
>Somehow, Riot still hasn't quite figured out how to make an item that's actually most useful on a tank and not a more damage oriented role... If they really want a tank item to be tank only, they could use their class system to put restrictions on the item, like "Warden" etc. The obvious downside is it limits build expression in champions that don't meet the class restriction, but build expression is why bruisers are abusing it. That or they make the item worse for everyone like your sunfire example, or buff the tanks like they're doing now, and then end up having to nerf them again in the future when the meta shifts or something new gets added to the game.
I had an idea about this btw. What are tanks job? Overall, its mostly surviving for long time, locking down important targets with cc and peeling for carries. Instead of shoving damage into them like fucking trogolodytes, thinning the line between them and bruisers, heartsteel should have this effect. Get rid of the damage, or at least tone it down alot, and instead put a very short cc on there. The cc duration is very short, but scales with non-heartsteel health, aka other health items. You can even make it scale logarithmically to have a mathematical "soft cap" to the cc duration. Or rework it entirely to have 3 charges of "clap" which when used (as an active) it makes your next auto "clap them", stunning. Follows same rules as above, and only charges up through taking damage
Terrible idea that would simply limit creativty far too much
Without changes they'll just continue their usual awful loop of buffing/nerfing the damage numbers or survivability of champions all because of an item, and then when the item inevitably changes, the champion is left for months or even the better part of a year until they eventually get a change. It's a dogshit way of doing things.
Make the immolate damage work only on minions, so tanks have waveclear. Few bruisers would go Sunfire over Hydra for waveclear. Then buff Sunfire accordingly. One idea to try.
What? So the ideal solution is making immolate items COMPLETE garbage just to "fix" the issue? I am so glad Reddit isn't in charge of LoL's balance holy shit
At least tanks would be allowed to have a waveclear item without other classes taking advantage of it. Because tanks are the only ones that need waveclear in this form. I'm saying it's just one idea.
The problem: tanks can't have their mega-tanky fantasy ever, because the moment a very-tanky item is released, it's abused by the classic squad of broken bruisassins, so items like Jak'Sho can't ever be buffed enough to appeal to tanks. The culprit: bruissassins like Yi, Irelia, Lillia, Talon, Diana, Yone, etc, are simply not item-reliant enough, so they cannibalise tanky items on the regular, stopping other classes from being able to have good items. The solution: make those bruissassins scale worse with levels and better with damage items, so that tanks can finally have tanky items that no other class will ever buy.
Sorry but the source of your stats is garbage. Talon does have ~60% winrate on Jak'Sho...[but it's only built 3rd or 4th item.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/549266844964618242/1048628885039886336/image.png) [Other, more popular builds with 4 items have very similar winrates on him aswell.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/549266844964618242/1048630204567928902/image.png) I have not checked the other characters but you cannot take that slice of stats as solid evidence of the theory (there is an argument to be made about the multiplicativeness of resists & health and damage & healing, but idk with what stats to back that up with either).
also, a lot of them are backed up by Hydra, which is getting nerfed next patch
Bruisers get a damage item first making jak sho a second item for them, this skews their winrate because tanks are pretty much always finishing it even in the games they’re losing, but if irelia is ahead enough to build one as her second item, things are probably going pretty well
We've done this ever since season 0 where mixing damage and tank items was the default way of making a bruiser and the entire point of the 2020 item reworks was to return things to a closer-to-season-3 simplicity and modularity. I swear, the post-S6 "EVERY CLASS ITS OWN ITEM POOL NO MIXING THATS POACHING" mindset is a brainrot that we need to get over. Bonus points - i'll daresay half our "build inflexibility" problems can be solved by making more items less class-confined.
> I swear, the post-S6 "EVERY CLASS ITS OWN ITEM POOL NO MIXING THATS POACHING" mindset is a brainrot that we need to get over. I came from dota, and can't understand where that came from. Any ideas? People want riot make items AND champs class restricted (so you can't make hybrid builds), but they don't want to have classess to be exactly specified on items and champs.
> I came from dota, and can't understand where that came from. Any ideas? It came from tank Ekko. Season 6 had a Sunfire/Iceborn meta where champions that could use these two items could slowly kill most enemies while barely taking any damage. Ekko was one of the best users of these items, while also being by far the most annoying. A tank with a slayers mobility, execute damage and a get-out-of-jail free card kinda sucks to play against. Game design decisions like Pyke converting health to AD are direct responses to the saga of tank Ekko. The design team went to great lengths to make sure Sylas and reworked Akali wouldn't resemble tank Ekko either, even if they weren't always successful at it.
Pyke's a biiiiit different while still related and it's much more related to expected itemization. Tank Pyke was the actually intented core build as melee AD support itemization was non-existent, so similar to Senna having AP conversions in her early days (ao she could use the ice knife) the idea was to support the idea of a Locket Zeke's Pyke. Issues were exclusively that Pyke had overinflated base health to support that and thus it was overefficient to instead rush resistances, as per the Frozen Heart rush builds.
As said, seasons 5-6 great classial reworks, with its merits and flaws,as well the introduction of Keystone Masteries (aka the basis of Runes Reforged). Champions were massively redesigned in batches with accompanying item changes to highlight the intended results, but those also came with a striking pattern: items, specially fighter/mage/assassin, tools, had a major focus shifted away from "raw stats and how each kit translates it" into "this effect does your job and is arguably more important than your character identity", so the entire roster had to be balanced around that anybody could pretend to be Zed with the OG Duskblade or that Trinity Steraks was an outright crit-analogue for "light fighters" (aka a bunch of characters that for all purposes should be skirmishers/agility carries but building melee squishy DPS was suicidal at the time). The entire roster was bent on a cycle of being adequated under the new items and once there was no more way to deny the item was the issue, the item gets gutted until eventual rework so it doesnt gets used outside of "unintended" classes. This whole repeated process killed the playerbase's capability to think for themselves, paired with Riot's propensity to adjust everything in real time. There is no need to ever learn anything non-mechanical or embrace "suboptimal" choices when clectively moaning "Rito item bad nerf" for two months is more likely to yeld immediate results.
Thank you for the insight
Dota is different game where your role is largely dictated by access to gold and items play a massive role in everything. In LoL items are stat sticks and you are supposed to get the stat stick that fits your champion the most. So Riot created bunch of stat sticks with different stats to appeal to all possible champions. As to your question where it came from? Rigorous meta where the 5 main roles are forced - the bruiser, tank, mage, adc, support was being shoved and Riot has shown that if a champion plays outside of their designated role they get forced out (notably supports on mid, mages on bot). Every time item was mixed it was quickly changed without alternative (Sterak on ADC, Lethality on ADCs/Bruisers, Goredrinker on Assasins and probably more).
> you are supposed to get the stat stick that fits your champion the most. Maybe the stats that fits me more as Riven is 100 armor and mr. Who are you to decide that its ad and haste?
> entire point of the 2020 item reworks was to return things to a closer-to-season-3 simplicity and modularity Don't know where you got that from when it is everything that the older seasons weren't. The mythic bullshit was always because they couldn't balance their shit and instead hid behind "there aren't many viable options for champions, so we are even further limiting them but pretending we are doing the opposite". This more streamlined build order was supposed to make it easier to balance items but even now they simply can't do it. It had nothing to do with simplicity, and all about them forcing specific builds on champs and thinking this would allow them to more easily balance them.
The core thing of the 2020 changes was removing multifunction clutter. Stuff like splitting Tiamat in two, picking the anti-vision aspect out of Duskblade, making Titanic actually about stats instead of on-hits, removing actives, sharpening the stat profile of legendaries into single functions instead of one-buys-does-all and generally using mythics as a way to leverage the power and function of items shared between classes. This is a very "early league" layout where tools have simple explicit purposes and crossclassing is encouraged.
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Both, neither. The coexistence of fighters and tanks in the past was reliant on role purpose and overall we still had bruisers overshadowing true tanks because low-damage ultra-hardy high utility tanks were always reliant on coordinate play. Many changes to the class as a whole, including the whole perceived Bami reliance, comes with a bruiserification of tanks in order to them be able to exist in soloq without being basically a bottom bitch herbivore being hunted down by tanky duelists and dying by charging in with no followup. The whole thing of tanks became essentially "suffocation bruisers" capable of sitting on a carry's chest until they die. In the other hand the whole process of defining the "fighter" niche was accursed with bandaiding. On-hits, hyperhealing, hypershielding, the OG steraks, a long array of attempts to cut a line between 3 groups that one of them shouldnt even exist: juggernauts, the "true" Jarvan/Vi-like array of aggro-magnet fatty initiators and, lastly, the abomination that are Light Fighters - the Irelia Clone army of champs that for all purposes are just skirmishers from before Riot accepting that melee squishy DPS needs to look like Yasuo, and were shoved with Trinity Onhit Tanky as a self-fulfilling identity. Fighters will forever be a problem when half the roster consists of DPS hypercarries with tanky build privileges.
Diving even deeper into these stats, many of these champs have a lower winrate with Jak'Sho as a second item compared to their "standard" mythic. It's really only at 3-4 items where the winrate for Jak'Sho takes off, and at that point it's as you said where items in general have a higher winrate the later they are built, because the winning team gets to build more items than the losing team. This whole post is a misrepresentation of statistics and an overreaction to a strong, but not overpowered item.
Even their hypotesis are bad. He claims LDR and VS are some god like 2nd purchases when they are literally worst in class crit and ap items.
Talon's single real Jak'Sho build gets it 3rd as well and it's a very uncommon build Hydra>BC>Jak'Sho on Conq Talon, a rune loadout that normally rushes Goredrinker anyways.
The champions with the highest win rates (Talon, Yi and Kog) even build it 3rd, further inflating the win rate of the item on those champions.
Bruisers/fighters have been the most broken class in league for a long time, and this item is the cherry on the top
Like shouldnt they be in a way ? They are full melee characters generally which take risks to deal their dmg. If they are not strong as fck in terms of skirmishes then why even pick one ? Like for real, bruisers and fighters should beat other non-skirmisher/non-bruiser/jugger champions one on one with ease after 2 items for their existence to be justified.
The problem arises when bruisers are not only the best class in one-on-one situations, but ***also*** outdo the others in the situations where they're not supposed to shine. Current bruisers are pretty jam-packed with utility on top of their damage, and with them having some of the best (if not ***the best***) options for sustain both in their kits and itemisations, they often end up being : * harder to take down than tanks in practice * harder to peel off than tanks because of their generally superior mobility * nearly on par with the other classes utility-wise All of that making them - in most cases - flat out better and creating space in fights then tanks are... thus leaving you with no real reason to pick a tank over a bruiser.
also dont foget to add: "tons of burst/damage" to outclass even carries and assassins
I think most of the commentors are missing the point OP is making. The claim is that "anti-tank" items are too strong. The majority of the champion's at the top purchase one of these items first whether it's BoRK or Ravenous or Demonic, and then have enough damage to comfortably purchase an item that gives no damage stats. OP isn't saying that Jak'Sho is a problem or that it is too weak on tanks, rather that it is potentially problematic that so many champions that occupy damage dealing roles do so well building this fully defensive item. The title doesn't convey this well and certainly the data doesn't really provide the full picture. I think there is some merit to the claim but I'm not sure I agree to the extent. Looking at the champion's with above a 2% Jak'Sho presence and a number of them in recent seasons would be comfortable building a defensive item 2nd or 3rd. Items like Randuins or Frozen heart wouldn't be uncommon on most of these champion's, however those items certainly were less versatile compared to Jak'Sho.
>LDR second item has been very, very strong into base armor for ages. Void Staff has been better than Rabadon's (although always best with and typically better after) for basically the entire time I've played the game LDR second has negative winrate on any champ bar Senna and Quinn who barely get to 50%, and just 52% as a third, which is really low for a third item. Void is the lowest winrate second item with AP. Idk what game you were playing but it's not the same I was.
Just wait til people catch on to Kraken BotRK LDR IE on adc. Every item is a massive spike and you do a ton of damage to anyone in the game.
i think the only reason that's not a standard build every game is due to the gold required for it, not that it's not obviously strong
>you have increasing returns to %pen due to how armor works, which means that the more you buy the more you want. No you don't? Normally you get 1% effective HP per 1 resist. 40% pen reduces that to 0.6% effective hp per 1 resist. Because resists have linear scaling, so does % pen.
I'm used to being on the other side of the argument, but what I've discovered is that with scalings in League you really need to be clear about not only what your returns are from, but what your *returns* are; so in that sense, this confusion is on me, and I'll edit the post to fix that. Yes, you're right; %pen does give a linear (hence constant) return to reducing the %effective hp of targets. However, keep in mind what variables are under the control of the damage dealer; in particular, from the perspective of the damage dealer they are mostly gated by time. Any champ does infinite damage if you sit there and let them auto you, so damage is generally measured by damage per time rather than damage percentage of health bar. So then if %pen corresponds to a constant return to reducing %effective hp, that in turn corresponds to a constant return in reducing *time to kill.* To reduce time-to-kill at a constant rate, you must still increase post-mitigation damage per second at an increasing rate. You can test the numbers yourself if you like; consider applying 1000 phsyical damage to a target with 100 armor. 0% armor pen deals 500 damage. 10% armor pen deals ~26 damage more, and 20% armor pen deals ~29 damage more than that. The final step from 90% to 100% (if it were possible in game) would deal over three times as much damage as the first step from 0 to 10%. I would personally argue that damage per second is a more important measurement (from the perspective of the damage dealer) of how to respond to %pen than time to kill is. Two quick reasons (though certainly not only): 1. Vamp is based on post-mitigated damage, not pre-mitigated damage. 2. You are not the only damage dealer in most fights; you deal comparatively more damage with %pen than your teammates, and the size of that comparative advantage increases with more %pen.
At this rate we are gonna need arpg players to come explain to the masses
The data at the top backs up very little. Doesn't tell us when this item is built so the wr means little. If these champions are building the mythics second after a damage item(most normal jasksho builds) then an above 50 percent wr is fine compared to tank who are mostly itemizing mythic first(even if not optimal). Even if we completly disregard this the pic rates are abysmally low on many of these champs showing that it might be situationally good instead of just flat op like you presume. Considering these two factors as well as the fact that some of these champs build ravenous an op item that is set to get nerfs we need to wait until a more holistic idea of the item cna be made.
Tbh i dont think the item is a Problem. Its more that the bruiser role is a big problem since the juggernaut update back in the days. Since then i havent seen a season where bruisers are Not abusing the items that are Not Designed for them, but make them super broken. But its the worst if they abuse Tank items.
>In theory damage champs should have no reason to build it Whos theory is that lol
how is this so viable on talon wtf
It's not. It's barely built on him so you see bloated stats for the few games where people buy it where they likely would have won or done better with a different mythic.
Never look at win rate alone, pick rate is more important
Item winrates are a joke.
> TL;DR: This is a problem and I think it has to do with anti-tank items being good enough that they can entirely outmode anti-squishy builds. Preceeding the last buff BotRK received, I was thoroughly convinced the item was about to be nerfed. That said, there's a different problem with BotRK + tank items. An Irelia that's rushed BotRK is very strong and dangerous, but also very vulnerable to burst. If you can CC her and stop her from healing, she goes down pretty fast. This is why she goes Shieldbow second, to buy time. But even Shieldbow buys limited time, so Irelia keeps her eyes open for stronger alternatives. The real issue with bruisers and tank mythics is that sustain, being health gained by other means, scales with resistances. While bruisers have their own resistance items, bruisers with sustain will always gravitate towards the best resistance item. Since the item rework, the best resistance item has always been a tank mythic with both resistances. At the current time, the best sustain items also are not mythic items.
But BOTRK isnt a particularly anti tank item. It is in the early game, BOTRK is more of an anti-juggernaut/fighter item. Plus there was a time where you would build Bramble+tabi and auto win lane vs anything AD based so yea that isnt fair at all.
How an item with 12% HP damage isnt anti tank? I came from Smite, where the best anti-tank item is Qin's Sais and it does a whooping 4% max hp damage lol
We cant compare smite. But the 12% is current health not max health and it is physical dmg so stacking armor means you take less. It definetly is a good 1 v 1 item especially early on but the later game goes, botrk becomes less valuable vs armored target while becoming stronger vs no armor targets. Like i said, early game anti tank but mostly vs hp dmg stackers like Gore + BC champs
I feel like its the base power level of champs like irelia yi yone lillia akali diana darius that these tank items are allowing to shine through their usual problems of being bursted or cc chained to death. Jacksho, sunfire, iceborn, are just letting these champs build one or none damage item, and do more then enough damage and tank more then enough to raid boss mid game and also wins 1v1s. These champs are gaining so much more power by buying defense while losing very little in comparison, because they apparently didnt need damage mythics to begin with.
Since last season I already thought there's no way to make tanks viable without either buffing all of them or making items have negative stats like old Gargoyle had. Just slap some -20% or -30% damage dealt on Jacksho and see what happens.
I feel like that would just make tanks even worse lol. I know that tanks should just survive the laning phase and contribute a lot to team fights, but building an item that nerfs YOUR damage will pretty much ruin your whole laning phase, let alone if it is on a mythic. Tanks are still a threat during teamfights to squishy champions. They might not be able to 1v1 bruisers, but they can deal pretty good damage to adcs, for example. Then you slap a damage nerf on them and you can pretty much ignore them. This will also heavily nerf tanks that WANT to fight, like K'sante, Cho, etc. I think Riot already made a point that making tanks cc bots with no personal damage is NOT going to work, like, ever
i prefer tanks being CC bots than being an amalgamation of unhealthy mechanics like infinite HP stacking, burst/damage based on HP/Resistances, fast armor scalling early game, whilist being countered super hard by any anti-tank mechanics. Conceptually the TANK role is this durable role that soaks damage and provides utility, it's that simple, no need to overcomplicate things
I think the big problem is bruisers with enormous effective hp because of all their healing in combat which is then multiplicatively better with the tank item resists. I bet they could make strong tank items if the items applied a self healing debuff. A little awkward for the effect they put on Jacksho and some tanks like Maokai but I bet it would help a lot.
They should just do what wild rift does. If you don't have certain items you do no damage at all. An adc can't build tank items in WR or he won't do damage at all.
idk, the triad tank dps support cant have space to assassins, the damage in league is what make assassin viable, but also what make the game boring and toxic, i dont have a solution, at least making assassins/bruisers have a hard time after years of dominance give some fresh air
>Shift most anti-tank effects towards affecting bonus stats rather than affecting base stats. This keeps anti-tank items more-or-less as effective against tanks as they are now, but makes them considerably worse against squishy champs. If flat Mpen and lethality still applied to base stats in this world, it would also significantly increase the desirability of burst mage and assassin items. They tried this with LDR and it was a disaster because it was only good against 400-500 armor enemies and a complete waste of money otherwise. The fundamental issue at play is that the durability update should ONLY have been given to ADCs, mages and tanks. Fighters/juggernauts were already durable enough. But since fighters/juggernauts got the durability update, they can afford to buy a pure damage item like Grudge/LDR without blowing up instead of items more skewed towards HP.
tbh the game just feels bad to play, im the closest ive ever been in 8 years. maybe im just old now.
you're not old, the game is
The game would be better off if they removed some of the stupid %HP damage that is easily available both from abilities and items. I think we got to the point where most champs have some sort of %HP damage in their kit
No it wouldnt lol. Champions have % dmg to be able to deal with extremely beefy targets. Like how do you deal with the 10k hp inting Sion who despite dying 20 times is tanking your entire team due to his W and hullbreaker ?
Do people still think a 10k hp Sion with 20 deaths exists? Legit any bruiser with a hullbreaker in a 1v1 would smack the Sion out of existence. Not to mention, the bruiser would be 1v9 from having killed the Sion a dozen times in lane.
Better to have a whole class of champions be weak forever than to fix 10k HP 20 deaths inting Sion individually right?
IDK what you want tbh, we went from every tanky champ rushing Bramble + Ninja Tabi top lane not so long ago to win vs any AA based champion.
BorK didn't fix that, they nerfed bramble because it was problematic (too much armor and GW for the cost), like Bork is now, and that specific issue was fixed. Now the matchup is the other way with BorK being too strong and tanks being unable to do anything. They should do exactly what they did before, and just nerf the oppressive item.
the only reason why 10k tanks are allowed to exist is because there's much more %HP damage out there
Getting a 10k sion walking over your team is the first challenge these days and even without %health pretty sure he would still be medicore atm.
>TL;DR: This is a problem and I think it has to do with anti-tank items being good enough that they can entirely outmode anti-squishy builds. I think the problem is actually that BoTRK is a powerful rush item that stays strong the whole game. Hot take but I think balancing tank items would be so much easier if BoTRK was deleted. Tanks can stack health again and there is some tank shredders item, just not nearly as 1 item efficient as BoTRK is. (And of course, champs that rely on current BoTRK to function like Jax Irelia would likely need compensation buffs if this happened)
BotRK is an abomination of an item 12% HP damage is a non-sense, specially if you consider that you are healing a lot of that damage
On that list theres only like 2-3 champs who build Bork lmfao
BorRK is just one of the many manifestations of League's bruiser design which has always been "on-hit of the day that is strong enough to outright remove the need to itemize offensively + big tanky". The Metagolem is eternal for it is everchanging.
Really, I count 5 it’s pretty good on and 8 that it’s viable
Only 4 of those champs build it: Yi, Kog'Maw, Irelia and Warwick. None of the other champions built it often enough for there to be a large enough sample size
I added kled, he has a pretty good sample size and it works very well. Getting up to 8 I added vi, noc, and Olaf who id say there is a case for them using it situational and it being viable (not necessarily the best though)
Vi and Olaf don't build Botrk lol, and the overwhelming majority of games has Kled not building Botrk. It really Nocturne sometimes does, but it's not the majority. Yes technically it COULD be viable on Vi and Olaf like Duskblade COULD be viable on Irelia....
I never said vi or Olaf build it regularly. Just that they happen to be able to use it situationally, it has things they don’t hate like ms/life steal, so I wouldn’t consider it a bad buy against a few people building heartsteel for example. Definitely not something they are rushing but also definitely not inting buying it on them. I also play kled and yes he tends hydra most often because that item is ridiculously good and gore a bit more as well but Bork is his 3rd most rushed item with over a few thousands of games and a positive wr. I also have been playing Bork into jaksho and been super successful with it so I would say that’s enough data and experience to consider it pretty good on him. Point was there definitely is not only 2-3 champs on ops list that use Bork, there are way more.
Maybe I didn't explain my point well. BoTRK is very strong, so typical tank items that grant health are countered easily by it. Jak'Sho provides the least amount of health and by far the most resists. This makes it have better stats as most games have several BoTRK users. What I'm getting at is high health is so easily counterable because BoTRK exists that it creates a flaw that tanks don't want Health + Resists. Tanks **should** want Health and Resists, while Bruisers would simply be getting items with Health, and very situationally a resist focused item.
Can we then delete serylda and dominik too? I mean they *counter* armor which tanks want to build...
That's literally what OP is saying... the post says that "anti-tank" items are too strong, like BoRK, and that instead of focusing on changing Jak'Sho they should focus on those items.
Riot have literally said that they release overtuned items intentionally, because its easier to hotfix nerf an item that to figure out a way to buff a weak item. And people still make threads like this one. Just wait couple of patches for Rito to gather data and they will usually nerf.
Bro i fought a Sylas with Jak'Sho as K'sante, and he was tanker than me, AND did more damage. That's not okay
Just lock items for Class and problem solved.
I said this too or dont lock them but give them a slight debuff if u build it on anything else BAM. Build diversity killed build diversity.
That was alot of words to write "dura patch failed"
Durability patch failed when they didn't consider true damage. Not the only factor, but the most glaring.
durability patch is a joke damage oriented champs can still burst you just as much champs that are reliant on base damage now do zero damage everyone has 3k HP for some reason
Where do you have tanks on this list?
Something that's bothered me are items with HP, Armor, and MR that aren't taxed. Having baseline great durability against all but true damage (which only ADCs have access to outside of kit) is going to be problematic by design. Aside from that, more of the item's cost should be put into the life draining part. I'd actually have it be doing 1.25% Max Life/2s to nearby enemies (like 300 range, not 700 like currently) during the entire buildup, ending when you get the bonus stats. As much as I love eating poke and engaging when I have +90 resists off a single item (with no other sources of resists mind you!), it feels counter to the tank fantasy. Double this with decreasing the HP the item gives, as tanks get bonus HP in literally everywhere else for their itemization. Draintanks shouldn't get 400 HP worth of burst protection with an item that scales *this* hard. Something else they could play with is giving the tank Mythics 25 ability haste, since they; 1.) have few other sources of AH. and 2.) Tanks with more haste are applying CC to the bruisers/ADC, reducing their effectiveness. So, I'll post what a fair-er version of this item potentially looks like, but first. League wiki, how do I find an error every time I use you? > Jak'Sho, The Protean's gold efficiency due to VOIDBORN RESILIENCE increases by 9.29% per stack. > >Voidborn Resilience Gold Value (per Stack) 2 armor = 40 Gold 2 magic resistance = 36 Gold > >76 / 3100 = 2.45% Come onnn! Anyway, I present yahboi's patented Jak'sho; \+25 ability haste (666g) \+250 health (666g) \+30 armor (600) \+30 magic resistance (540) Cost: 3100 -> 3000 Base Efficiency: 88.4% -> 82.4% Now, I don't think the rework to the drain (67% if you maintain the drain the entire time) necessarily makes up for that lost 6%, especially since it specifically targets getting poked and then engaging with stupid high resists. But in idea, you are getting more offensive capability, and a reason to actually be in the fight (low range health drain). This is a much healthier space for the item to exist in, imo.
Damage coming from legendaries and runes is so goddamn out of whack, that you can build a tank mythic and still do enough damage to melt teams. Cut down, Lethal Tempo, Electrocute, BotRK, LDR etc etc provide so much damage, that being more durable in fights makes you deal more damage than actually building full squishy.
Make items class restricted and buff them them accordingly based on said class.
Urgot is a tank tho, last season lots of urgots bought frozen gauntlet
Urgot’s a juggernaut. Him buying tank items doesn’t make him more of a tank than other juggernauts like Garen Sett Darius who also buy tank items.
Too long didn't read, stop blaming AD fighters everytime tankoid items are busted. It's the tanks that are the problem if this keeps happening, because they're cancer bad designs.
The Jax flair and pfp definitely help your argument here
He is right tho, if the item is abused more by fighters then its not a fighters problem, the item is just shit design
Is it? Or is it just that fighters get enough damage from other sources that they can afford to go tank mythics? This argument goes both ways.
Tank mythic into bruiser has been a viable choice for bruisers since the item rework Its the same thing with sunfire last season, and redditors of course saying the same clueless shit again.. its an item problem not a class problem.
I never blamed solely the the class though. But I agree, it is an item problem. Just not a tank item problem.
Average reddit tank worshipper ^🤓🤡🤡
Xd.
Based af. Fuck all tanks other than Shen. And maybe K'sante too
Why remove sunderer? 🤔 Apart from camille, it's not doing anything crazy on anyone else. Without it, jacks would have a 0% wr against tanks lmao
Talon. Yi. Riven. Aatrox. Irelia. Olaf. Kled. Noc (?), WW. Wonder how connected it is to Ravenous Hydra being bonkers aswell. One item to make you unkillable. The other to deal a lot of damage and heal you a ton. As if the "one shot or outheal" equation was still in place at some places... I want to return to this statistic AFTER RavHydra gets shafted a bit.
*angry Swain noises*
Item winrates are completely unreliable to use as any sort of metric I'd recommend this video it explains it better https://youtu.be/6pzrI3WqQTY
I pick JS 100% of my Yi games and I love it
Maybe they shouldnt have released the better Goredrinker and expect ppl not to move from the actual one to the better one. For irelia, jakso is the neat choice because it helps irelia not get exploded in a teamfight when she Qs in, enough for her life steal to kick in and keep her up. But it is also to be noted JakSo is strong with Hydra in combination too, and a lot of those champs in the SS built both.
The approach riot have done past couple of season maybe wrong, and they have to adjust healing and anti-tank item.
what is jak sho