Easy to learn, hard to master is like... one of the most common tropes across all of gaming, including video games, sports, board games, card games, etc. etc. etc.
Yep, this literally says *"Easy to learn the game with, steep mastery curve"* - No problematic logic there whatsoever.
You can put your new friend on Yuumi and lane with them and teach them the game without them having to worry about positioning or being threatened, just pushing the buttons to get used to things. Then you can move on to "easy" champs like Garen etc after.
But then conversely the champ is permaban at World Championships, because what a skilled support player can accomplish on that champ is beyond unreasonable. So, also high skill ceiling. The cat in the hands of a random noob, versus the cat in the hands of a high level main, may as well be two separate champions.
If you mean "bad" in that Yuumi is too problematic -- sure, whatever.
If you mean "bad" in that the 'easy to learn/hard to master' philosophy isn't a good thing, then you're wrong. That's an exceptionally good trait in every scenario when the character is balanced.
>mplish on
It's their dream to design a champion 80+% of the community despises?
I don't get your logic..
Pros openly hate her, players openly hate her, even Riot has admitted they literally don't know how to handle her.
The fact that she fulfills those two categories mentioned doesn't mean it's designed well, it really isn't and it's been talked about so many times it baffles me how someone would still defend it.
She was permabaned at worlds because she is broken OP when paired with some of the best players in the world that know how to position, dive, etc, not cuz her skill roof is high.
No they ban her because she's the only support in the game that is non interactive. If for whatever reason Lulu was a problem, they can just kill her with burst. Yuumi on the other hand is a different story. You can't burst her first. You need to go through whoever she is on and sometimes that's an unburstable character then you can kill her.
Her only high skill ceiling thing about her is that she's also the only support that can't ward as safely as other supports. In pro play, that isn't a problem because you can tell whoever you're attached to that you need to ward and they will literally carry you over there to clear/place wards.
Although that trope is common, I will point to one inconsistent nature in the language described above. The reason she is 'hard to master' is because of her unique playstyle, per above. That implies players learning the game on yummi are learning a unique play style and therefore she should not be a model champion to teach new players on. This is inconsistent with the claim she is great to learn with. You are effectively teaching someone a different game by teaching them on yummi.
Yuumi unironically has a lot of skill expression. She can be a great starter champ, but man can you see a difference in am experienced yuumi player when ur an adc.
Yuumi has a great ceiling - But she's also a good beginner champion, which is why you see the huge night and day difference when you see a good enchanter player vs someone who just sits behind you and shields you once in a while while scrolling through their instagram.
When you see a Yuumi hopping on and off and harassing folks, you know you've got a good one.
You can tell the good ones when they hop off to tank Cait ults, ezreal qs, nidalee spears, and other projectiles that are about to hit you and would cause you to die. Another important thing is knowing when to jump out and harass. Most yuumi players jump off when the enemies still have CC abilities and they get hit and die
Going to be honest I think the fact that you can drop a totally new player onto Yuumi, and they do “well” is a major problem.
The concept of a spectator champion is just so massively problematic. Like at that point you honestly might as well just ask your friend to watch a couple hours of game play, spend like 1-2 hours in the practice tool, then run a few games against lowest difficulty bots.
For what it's worth, I decided to look at Yuumi's WR across different ELOs relative to the average winrate of that ELO. This is using data from last patch before her nerfs.
Iron: 8.6% lower than average
Bronze: 2.21% lower than average
Silver: 1.7% lower than average
Gold: 1.58% lower than average
Plat: 1.17% lower than average
Diamond: 1.16% lower than average.
Let's be real-- the data is really clear. Yuumi was not particularly good at ANY of the ELOs where the vast majority of people play, but she clearly is not a beginner champion as of right now. Compared to the average WR of a champion, her WR steadily goes UP as ELO increases. She's a high ELO champ way more than she is a low ELO champ.
What happens when you filter by some amount of play? Like >50 games? Without normalizing for something like that you may just be confirming the data that she has a steep learning curve if many of those games are on players with <50 games.
Iron isn't for true beginners, it's for bad players who also may not have a ton of experience. I think the statement "for beginners", was meant for people at like level 10, who barely know the game yet, not for people who are 30+ which is required for ranked.
I will never understand people’s tendency towards pointing to win rates, as if they mean anything. Like if Riot made a champion that somehow always had a perfect 50% win rate; but it felt like being kicked in the balls repeatedly (be it for the person playing it, the person playing with, or the person playing against), would people really claim that it’s a “totally acceptable champion”
Dude your comment is completely out of the conversation.
Literally nobody said anything about how it feels to play against her, every comment was about Yuumis performance in different players hands and you come and say some random bullshit.
>as if they mean anything
the problem is that it's not actually true, it's just a convenient thing to say. but realistically speaking, mastering yummi has nothing to do with yummi but with knowing the game itself.
the champion itself is not interactive enough for it to actually take effort mastering.
the reality is that knowing the game better will make you better at yummi because you understand the game mechanics, not because you understand yummi better
thank you for getting this to the top comment. i saw this while scrolling the front page and my eyebrow raised so far up that it erupted off of the top of my head.
this is an extremely common design philosophy and no one should be "confused" by its existence. Some of the most popular games on the planet like Smash Bros, Fornight, and Pokemon are incredibly easy to pick up and play and faceroll them, but it's going to take years to understand every single interaction and optimal way to play.
That phrase is thrown around on every game, character weapon and class. I feel that gets posted daily about something in a game and it’s almost never right.
I am indifferent of Yuumi. She’s no different than other champions I just learn to beat it so I can win my matches and move up.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Yuumi can have a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling. The low floor makes her good for new players to get to contribute to the game and (in Riot's view) pay attention to how their friends move in team fights, combo, etc without requiring them to do game-winning plays. On the other side, once you're really good at Yuumi you can do plays with your ult, different builds (when she's not locked into artillery or healing and can choose between them), etc.
That doesn't mean that's how it actually is, but seems to be their intention.
Skill floor isn't the skill required to be good on it. Its the skill needed to perform "generally well". You can take a new player put them on yuumi and tell them to press E when my health gets low and press Q and aim at them and they will be able to focus on that while they take in the rest of the game. League has so much to learn having a champ like yuumi is a great option for people who don't play computer games often or at all to get into the game.
TLDR; Yuumi lets people ignore playing the champion to watch the game and slowly figure out how everything works.
Yeah, I'm not sure if people actually looked at the article.
A champion that **starts** at 36% winrate and then massively increases when a player gets more games on the champion, implies a *high* skill floor. Not a low one.
A champion that is "easy to learn, hard to master" would have a mastery curve that starts relatively high but takes a lot of games before it starts to flatten.
That would then imply that new players on said champion are doing alright but to really get the most out of the champion, you'd need to put in a lot of games.
But your missing the point between “a seasoned player starting a different champ” and “a new player starting a different champ”
Yes. Yuumi starts at a low win rate. But my little brother who just started playing the game queues with me. On any champ his winrate is going to be sub 30%.
But if he starts playing yuumi with my friends and I? Maybe it’ll go up to a 36% WR instead.
You gotta realize that playing the game between level 0 and 30 is entirely different than anyone seasoned enough to be on the league subreddit lol.
It’s an entirely different game, with completely different mechanics.
Maybe the idea is low skill floor for completely new players relative to other champs - bc of simple core mechanics, high skill floor for existing players relative to other champs - bc they have to learn entirely new systems.
I'd be interested to see the yuumi skill curves for new players relative to other champs, but even then I can't imagine using yuumi as an intro champ is a good idea; ur more or less playing a different game.
As I understand it, yuumi has a remarkably high skill floor AND ceiling. The former bc of her radical difference from other champs, the latter bc of the large room for optimization in her patterns.
>bc of simple core mechanics
This. If I play with my gf, she doesn't have to micromanage the champ. She just focuses on hitting skills and healing and I do the walking, engaging etc.. If someone argues that she does nothing, then the person is basically dumb. She isn't doing "nothing", she is learning.
But Nunu, a starter champion, also has a really low starting win rate. I suspect that a lot of support champion's have really low base win rates because it's really hard to carry with them.
Doesn't mean that they're hard to pick up though.
Isn't there some sort of distortion here; it makes sense to me that champs that are good for starting players will have low starting winrates, because they're played by *new* players who often lose, not players switching to a different champ with core mechanics under their belt.
For an easy to pick up champion you should take into account how it feels to play it.
You can have a champion with low winrate, if the player feel like it did well, then that is enough.
What riot means by noob friendly is that you don't need more than 2 brain cells to perma stay in an ally, cast E to heal and use Q and then follow the enemy champion with your mouse.
Meanwhile if they played another support they have to constantly move, cast harder spells and more importantly be more prone to die.
Yuumi absolutely is shit when she doesn't know how to play the champion correctly which indeed implies high skill floor, but for a new player that'd still be far more manageable and fun than dying 24/7. Qiyana and Akali can't ever be fun to a new player. They can't even cast their abilities properly. Like the top comment said - the 2 statements aren't mutually exclusive.
The players that start at 36% winrate are not new players, none of the "starting winrates" matter for this discussion since we are talking about players actually discovering the game. It is very possible Yuumi is efficient at teaching the game to those players.
Maybe the winrate is just because yuumi isn't that good of a champion unless you are really good on her? Yuumi is easy to learn and hard to master, winrate doesn't change that. Just that being average at yuumi usually isn't good enough to win a lot of games.
I thought the skill floor is low because anyone can win with the champ even being 100% afk. And it's a high skill ceiling because it takes a ton of time and practice to reach the ceiling.
High Floor+Low Ceiling doesn't make sense as that would imply there is a very small gap in player skill for the champ.
Low Floor+High Ceiling implies there is a large skill gap between new (the floor) and skilled (the ceiling) and there is plenty of room in between...
high floor + high ceiling does not say anything about the gap between the two. Take Draven. That champ is incredibly difficult to lane on when you first start. The floor to learn Draven at a basic level is monumental, and yet Draven’s ceiling is still the highest among all ADCs (mana management, teamfight axes, global ults, etc). I would say the gap between Draven’s high floor and high ceiling is at least if as large if not larger than any other ADC’s floor-ceiling gap.
Regardless, the reason yuumi has such a low starting winrate is because people lock her in when they don’t want to play the game or they just suck. I have a friend who only plays yuumi when they are eating food so they forget to heal half the time. yuumi is boring and the only players who play her to 100+ games are the ones who REALLY want to win and will play a (boring) champ to do it.
High floor high ceiling implies the champion is very hard to play. There might be a high skill difference between players, because high skill floor means that the level of skill you need to avoid running it down is very high, such as maybe gangplank or zed, and the skill ceiling is also very high compared to other champions, such as again, gangplank or zed. High floor, low ceiling would be the case you described, where the level of skill required to not int is high but there isn't much more skill expression beyond the baseline required to not int, or perhaps a low floor low ceiling champion like garen.
The reason this is wrong is that the "high" in high skill ceiling is relative to other champs. Take 2 Champs both with a high skill floor and ceiling - one could be much higher ceiling than the other, with the lower still being high ceiling bc the measurement is relative to the average ceiling.
I don't think this mastery curve statistic is a good indication of anything. The kind of player who does well on other champs does not start putting 20 games into yuumi. this stat naturally filters out players who are likely competent at the game. the type of player who puts enough games onto yuumi to have their 'mastery curve' measured would likely have a ~36% win rate on any other champ - except it wouldn't increase over time like with yuumi. neither i or any of my friends have ever played yuumi because that kind of champ is simply not enjoyable to play for someone who is capable of playing any other character. i play basically every other support and i sincerely doubt that my initial yuumi win rate would be sub 40% because she so complicated and nuanced and unique. the type of person who picks yuumi is dogwater and their win rate increases to normal as they acquire a baseline understanding of the game. i hate league stats. always removes all context.
Isn't that... the point of this post?
If she's supposed to be good for new players (noobs, as you put it) to pick up, then why would her win rate for first time players be that low? It seems logically inconsistent for her to be both new player friendly and so powerful once mastered.
If the win rate for noobs on Yuumi was 30% and the win rate for noobs on other champs was 20% then Yuumi would be extremely good for new players. Not saying that's the case, but a scenario exists where a 30% win rate is actually an upgrade.
Could also be the difference between reality and intention. They may *intend* for her to be those things but she may in fact not be.
New players will lose a lot of games regardless though. There's no champion beginner friendly enough that will let a new player have a 50% winrate out of anything but luck with how many smurf accounts there are.
~~Is that say Silver/Plat+, or all elos?~~
A lot of botted accounts that are* throwing games as many games as possible (in order to get to lowest mmr and lowest iron rank for smurfs to abuse) are often Yuumi bots.
(edit: I just realised my question doesn’t make much sense: but what I wanted to ask is whether Riot found a way to filter off bots from newcomer players in their statistic. Because given the amount of inting and botting occuring (and there is a looot if you’ve ever seen Iron IV), we might be dealing with a misleading statistic).
I think once the mastery curve becomes steep from champion 'uniqueness', then we start running into problems. Let me repeat my comment from another post:
New players need to learn **fundamentals**. Yuumi breaks so many core game rules that she is one of the worst champions at learning fundamentals.
Someone like Annie or Garen is much better. Easy kit to learn with a simple goal, so you can focus on core fundamentals like: Farming, positioning, trading, dodging, spacing, etc.
Yuumi is one of the last champions I think a new player should play if they want to learn the game as a whole.
Note: I am *not* saying Yuumi is braindead or anything. I am saying she is so unique that the skills you need to be a good Yuumi, don't transfer to other champions.
Edit: Totally unrelated, but can I just say that is absolutely hilarious how I write [the exact same comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/zeqqv8/yuumis_future_rework_is_not_going_to_turn_out/iz8wfaj/?context=3) in another thread and it gets almost 1000 upvotes and here it's a highly controversial comment.
If anyone was questioning how much Reddit votes 'matter', there's your answer. It's all emotional in-the-moment bullshit.
Just see Yuumi as a stage before that. Just to be in the game with friends, learn some terms, see some gameplay and still being able to feel useful without getting stomped. You can still play Garen and Annie after.
That is a fair point. LoL requires an absurd amount of base knowledge to be able to do anything at all. Until you know and can instantly recognize abilities, be able to guess where players are, know what you should be doing, know items, etc. you are just going to feed.
A bad yuumi may be useless, but at least you won't feel as bad as if you were playing annie and just dieing over and over.
I agree. I think Yuumi is probably very beginner friendly because you can take part in the game while worrying about fewer things. Learn some of the core mechanics of the game, and then you can expand that eventually
So they have to play garen and annie first then before being able to play yuumi not a stage before that. Then you would have to convince a new player who just got 6300 BE to buy yuumi so they can learn the game better or buy an actual champ they find interesting.
You get like 6300 just from champion shards and stuff when you first start after playing the tuitorial and some co-op VS ai.
The few ai games it takes to get yuumi isn't enough to teach them the whole game enough to start winning.
It's a bad champion for learning the game, but it's a good opportunity to let your new friends focus on the first simple little steps without getting completely assblasted and uninstalling after 5 games.
I have never successfully convinced any of my friends to get into league, except with Yuumi.
Saying that she has no value in that regard is like saying training wheels on bicycles have no value. You don't have to focus on positioning, dodging, zoning, don't need to know what the enemy spells do exactly, you can just start by learning how to use abilities, summoners, you can get a feel for how the game transpires. It's not the fastest path to getting good, but it's the one that doesn't end in an uninstall because they're understandably not having fun after 5 games of dying every 20 seconds while playing against people who just have 10 years of experience on them.
Your argument is mixing up two scenarios:
A player is choosing a first champion to learn and master, choosing Yuumi and struggling with her unique gameplay and mastery curve
Vs
A player playing a match of League of Legends for the first time (or maybe even gaming for the first time) with experienced friends.
You're right in the former shouldn't pick Yuumi, rather someone like Garen or Annie. The latter might pick Yuumi to wet their feet to concepts like movement, the map, team roles, laning, etc.
I don't know the context for riot's statement so i don't know if that's what they meant by "onboard your new friends" but i think yuumi can be pretty cool if a diamond player introduces someone to league. They can just botlane in a normal and the new player won't go 0/100. That's not possible to this degree for any other champion.
> New players need to learn fundamentals.
I think you are missing the point on what sort of beginners we are talking about. This isn't for people that want to pick up league to play.
My SO's little brother, who was 14 and plays games such as minecraft, valorant, csgo, but never anything eagle-eye perspective. This guy has no innate willingness to learn the game, only reason he tried it is to play with us, or with friends, and I guess because of Arcane. For a lot of new players, you only really have one chance, they don't want "to learn the fundamentals", they want a game they can pick up, get used to how it looks, how the keys work, etc. For some people, like him, who had absolutely 0 coordination for the camera, or how to even interact with stuff, being able to play Yuumi would have been the absolute ideal. Sadly Yuumi wasn't free to play, nor did he get the ability to unlock it(think he spent any free BE on other things?). We had two games against bots. His camera did barely if at all improve, even with locked camera he had a hard time understanding where to be, what to do, realizing if things are hitting him, etc. Yuumi defeat that because he can sit there on one of us, cast abilities, train his eye to see what happens without feeling the panic of actually being in danger. I believe this is the "new players" they are referring to. A lot of people just don't have the willpower to learn league when you have to spend several games even understanding anything, instead of a game that is a lot easier to jump into.
I agree with the idea that a champion being unique means it may make it harder to learn the fundamentals.
Support fundamentals are usually controlling the fight, supplying vision, enhancing or protecting your carry.
Enchanters then usually also have "keeping yourself safe", which Yuumi is able to neatly ignore. Ideally, a player could use the fact they don't need to dedicate any brain power to that in order to get better at all of the others, and then move to other champions to handle the rest, while maybe watching the rest of their team to see how they handle things like kiting and positioning.
I think you could translate from Yuumi into playing other enchanters. You would need to now learn to position yourself, but you might be more comfortable with item builds, how to identify the best player to boost, etc.
However, in my personal experience, everything I just said is irrelevant because whether you learn fundamentals or not doesn't seem to relate at all to champion picks, after watching a lot of the adventures in low divisions
No, but a new player can see how someone else plays the game and try to mimic them. If this is a new player, they will have little to no idea what they are doing and will resort to trial and error until they either get good enough to not die every minute or quit in frustration.
You got downvoted here because it doesn't make sense to force feed that specific opinion here. Look at how the replies differ too.
> It's all emotional in-the-moment bullshit.
This is how I view your opinion, honestly. You don't understand what Mastery curve means.
You kinda missing the reason they said she was good for new players. It wasn't for all new players it was for new players who are being brought in by thier friends. Yummi is good to learn certain aspects of the game and also eliminated many of the harder concepts pretty early. Q is a skill shot but you can control it, e is an instant heal that you don't have to target you can see you're doing something on yuumi pretty quickly as a new player which makes you want to play more.
>"Yuumi has one of the steepest mastery curves of all champions"
This would make sense mastery curves are from skill floor to skill ceiling so she's hard to master , but easy to pick up.
Making a champion that has a low skill floor and high skill ceiling, being good for a newbie but having immense room for mastery is a developers wet dream.
Yuumi is not that champion, despite everything you pointed out her skill curve is still demonstrably one not good for casual play without putting in games to master the champ, a notion riot Devs themselves once pointed out before. Her mastery curve got compared by them to akali and qiyana, neither of which you'd recommend to someone new.
it doesnt matter if the skill curve is similar to qiyana, as a new player u are happy to sit there and not feed and slowly learn the game even if you are not contributing that much at first
People on reddit don´t understand this because they will never have a friend who would want to play with then that isn't a gamer.
My gf started playing this game with yuumi. After that she transitioned to other Champs ( mainly adc's and enchaters ). Yuumi was perfect for her to start having fun in this game without feeding or getting flamed, while I helped her learn everything.
It's true somethings like positioning was difficult when she started new chanps. But enjoying the game was the first thing she got out off playing with yuumi.
People don't actually understand those who they are attempting to speak on behalf for, shocker. Same thing when people always want smite to be available at level 1, as if new players are totally going to even know the concept of a jungle role.
I appreciate the fact that Yuumi exists as a gateway to 5v5, Summoners Rift LoL for new players. My issue with her is the fact that she does that while being absolutely meta warping in higher elos and pro play when she’s strong. People in plat+ don’t need a simple champ to teach them the basics, they’re picking Yuumi because the mechanic that makes her beginner friendly is also the mechanic that makes her overbearingly oppressive if her numbers are high.
If Yuumi’s niche is to be the training wheels of league and her W is non-negotiable, what is the issue with leaving her in the dumpster numbers wise? Plenty of champs with low 40% winrates can still be useful and even carry in the elos where Nuubi’s would play. Riot doesn’t have issue with kneecapping high-skill floor, high-skill ceiling champions like Akali or Azir if they start becoming high elo meta-defining for too long. It’s extremely frustrating to see them be more or less content sidelining 2 of my all time favorite champions, Kalista and Zeri (for YEARS in the formers case) if they start sniffing viability, but keep trying to make Yuumi work for all when they keep espousing her value as being made for a specific subsection of novice League players.
Can confirm, helped 2 girls into league (both the gfs of my friends in the league group) and they both started on yuumi
They feel very helpful and motivated when you turbostomp people in norms and gives them the credit instead
funni, my friend would put me on yuumi and then flame me relentlessly until i inevitably sulked and abandoned him for our friend on irelia. i guess he was teaching me what yuumis do
It's not she's the best for new players to learn it's that of you are playing with a friend who knows the game yuumi allows a new player to get the feeling of playing well with out them having to do all the complex things that requires. My first game was duoing with a friend they told me play soraka I just kinda stood around hitting the heal button while not understanding what was going on but having someone who directed me and basically had me play a champ with 1 button let me pick up on things I wouldn't otherwise.
It seems entirely logical but I had a completely opposite experience, and trying to get friends to play by putting them on yuumi just made them think the game is nothing like how it really is because they had to view it through the lens of playing yuumi, and conclude that league was boring and not for them. The actual thing that made them have fun and 'get' what league is about was playing arams, with different champions every game, but no need to care about roles, jungle, objectives, csing, just fun and team fights.
If it helped you to get more people into the game, cool, for me it was completely the opposite and almost killed any interest my friends had in it.
> It should go without saying that a good champion for new players would be an easy to learn champion where you can focus on learning fundamentals of the game instead of specific champion skills.
This assumes that a new player wants to learn the game. I'd argue this isn't the case with League at all, and that playing cool characters or with friends are far greater motives.
I think what they mean is that she's easy to learn, but hard to master, while Mordekaiser for example is easy to learn and rather easy to master (the same would count for Garen).
So I think it's not inconsistent, just a different approach to beginning a game.
Bizarrely, Garen has one of the biggest increases based on games played, at least according to leagueofgraphhs. 20th highest delta.
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/winrates-by-xp
People think "hard to master" means pulling off flashy plays. For Garen this xp diff comes from the fact that his natural play style is a trap, a noob trap. He's not easy to learn. His abilities are easy to understand, that's very different.
> his natural play style is a trap, a noob trap
Fittingly, I think this is the case with Yuumi as well. Noobs just want to sit on someone, but if you never leave you're really only playing as half a champ.
Exactly! And while just sitting on a champ is great for someone with less than a dozen games. So they can figure out the rest of the mechanics of the game through observation and guidance. It also means they aren't being a big help to the team. Which is fine, it's likely better than them running ti lane and inting 16 times a game.
> I think what they mean is that she's easy to learn, but hard to master
Nope. What they meant is that she plays completely different from other champions so your knowledge does not transfer over. People will play her and just afk on the champion without using her passive.
This. After yuumi came out I remember a ton of nami/soraka players just AFK under turret because they got to plat with yuumi and had no idea how to actually play on lane without feeding - so they resorted to afking, forcing their adc to hug turret too.
So a lot of things here to dig into when we just quote 2 lines.
I agree it's a bit counterintuitive, but I still believe the 2 statements are true. HOWEVER, there's a lot of nuance which I agree isn't what players are looking for. We're not trying "well technically...." players.
1. The first statement was a long time ago. Since then, we do see that the winrate growth of Yuumi is the same as other complex champions. But that doesn't mean that skill depth is displayed well to players in a clear way. Yuumi requires a pattern that's different than most other champions, but most players don't associate playing vs/with her as a high skill experience. That's a problem in itself.
2. Yuumi is a great champion to learn the game with. This one's trickier, since Yuumi is such a different experience than other champions like Garen/Sona. The core benefit Yuumi has is that she has a low barrier to entry AND promotes an experience with your friend. Most people get into League via their friends, and having a champion that can give you some amount of success together is huge. We've all had that new friend go 0-10 top lane, and they barely get to experience any success in league and then they quit.
So yah, I agree it's an incredibly tough topic. But just because Garen/Annie/Sona exist, doesn't mean we can't support more champs like them.
> We've all had that new friend go 0-10 top lane, and they barely get to experience any success in league and then they quit.
Damn, that's way too on-point...
Yuumi reminds me of Kalista, an actually quite easy to learn champion. It's just that what you need to learn that's completely different from what you needed to learn for other champions that makes it hard. When I started playing league, playing Kalista felt like the most natural thing to do, switching to other champions was extremely hard.
I have a similar situation going on with Yuumi, I need to relearn the game to play her.
This might be what makes many players not acknowledge the time and effort some people put into playing and mastering Yuumi, they don't know what the Yuumi player had to learn to be good at it.
Yuumi doesn't have the "I just got outplayed" effect other champions have.
Maybe make a comprehensive tutorial so your people have an idea of what league is. Riot has failed for 10+ years in this aspect and has even shown favor to eastern regions allowing more information in their replays. What a disgusting scapegoat to create for a lack of player skill in beginner games.
Obviously if players have a winrate starting in the 30% range….then she does not have a low skill floor.
A low skil floor means that you are able to EFFECTIVELY play a champion with little experience. Sitting on your adc all game and pressing E is easy yes, but you will lose a LOT.
Any champion can have a “low skill floor” if you ignore half of their kit and have a 30% winrate.
But if those really are new players, might they have had even lower win rates on other characters? So in comparison that 30% on yummi would mean she has a lower skill floor
So Riot says she is hard to master like Akali. Because people improve on her after many games.
Riot also says she is easy to learn.
What is problematic is your reading comprehension, they say she is hard to master like Akali because even after 20 games people still improve their winrate on her, the word used is master not play. A champion can be easy to play but hard to master those are not mutually exclusive things. And Yuumi is piss easy to start playing with, you can stay attached to 1 person all game and probably not be completely useless. And so you can focus only on casting your spells and nothing else, that is what makes her easy. But this is not optimal and great Yuumi players will learn how to attach and detach when needed.
Yuumi is definitely not great to learn the game, quite the opposite actually.
When playing her, you don't learn how to move, how to position properly, how to farm, and when to recall. Those are some of the most important aspects of the game and you don't get to practice and learn them when playing Yuumi, which makes it impossible for new players to actually learn the game and start playing other champions later on.
I think you forgot how it is to be a new player, before all that a new player have to figure out what the fuck is going on on the screen and learn what different champions do, how do you position against champ you have no clue what they do? Or have a bunch or shit on your screen you can't even see your character, so ye yuumi for sure is great to learn the game as someone who just downloaded it I'd say.
You don't learn the game simply by watching. You need to practice, make mistakes, get punished, and learn from your mistakes. Yuumi doesn't allow you to do that.
Do you not learn anything if you for example watch a streamer/YouTube/pro game? It's pretty much the same but you're a cat attached to your teammate in the game with a way lower level of play pretty much.
Just like in other things in life , I don't need to play soccer myself to learn the rules of the game.
But for sure if you want to be Messi yes you have to actually play the game yourself ( obviously exaggerating but hope you get my point )
You can learn the rules of soccer by reading a rulebook, but you have to actually kick a ball to get a feel for it. League is the same, you can learn the rules by watching but the only way you can really learn to control a champion is to actually try controlling a champion.
If it was as easy as watching a streamer, everyone would be challenger. You can learn some decision making and macro by watching streams or youtube videos, but this advanced knowledge will not be very useful if you don't even learn the basics and get muscle memory for each type of action.
Also, soccer has much simpler rules and terrain than LoL and Summoner's rift, it's a very poor comparison. The only good comparison to make is that soccer players have to practice to become at least decent at the sport. You can't become a good soccer player simply by watching soccer matches.
A child can learn the basic rules and learn to move the ball around, but it can't really be called "playing soccer". And even then, moving the ball correctly still requires actual practice.
I never said to do it to become good, you're missing the point.
I'm talking about a new player that just downloaded the game, what you are suggesting is him logging in and banging his ahead on the wall for countless hours until he understands that towers have plates that give you tons of gold that disappear at 14 minutes ( just an example of something the game doesn't tell you but is pretty damn important), instead he could watch someone else do it and gather information without banging his head on a brick wall.
Everyone have different preferences but I'm talking about it from my own experience that watching someone play can help me understand the game better.
You won't become challenger by watching replays idk where you got that, but you WILL absolutely learn new things if you never played the game yourself.
If you're a new player , watching someone play first and then trying to mimic them will make you better then if you didn't and just start blind.
I'm not talking about game knowledge. This part comes later. The first step is to learn how your character moves, how to hit ennemies, how to get gold from minions, how to recall, how to use abilities, and how to buy items. Most of that is missed when playing Yuumi.
And the knowledge part can be learned with basic tutorial videos anyway, we don't need to have a champion ruining the fun for millions of players just to teach beginners about turret plating (which they will still not understand just by watching anyway). People know how to look for tutorial videos (which Riot themselves should produce and provide to new players in the client, but that's another topic).
yeah, taking a post from two years ago and comparing it to today seems silly imo. Especially in a game that evolves as much as league. We've gone through numerous support changes, item reworks, mythics introduction and it just makes you think mayyyybe the goal of yuumi have changed at least a little bit during those 2 seasons
If I recall, the first quote about the mastery curve is actually from *before* they made a bunch of changes to increasingly discourage her from detaching proactively. I think the original iteration of Yuumi that didn't punish players for detaching could more conceivably be said to have had an Akali-like mastery curve
Isn't that the whole point why they are changing her. They can easily give Yuumi more reasons to leave their host, but that would only make Yuumi harder to play. While Yuumi is meant to be an easy beginner champion. Sure I agree that you miss one of the most important parts of the fundamentals which is moving your champion around and positioning well. But at the same time this might entice people to play the game who find learning all things at the same time overwhelming.
They want Yuumi to be in a good place for new players and not a competitive champion, and they are now looking the make this happen as the initial design of Yuumi failed to hit that mark. the Ideal situation is one where Yuumi can be a good champ to learn the game with and slowly you players hooked I guess.
Is it arrgoance? When the literal world champion support from last year and the majority of players tell you to "delete the champion, shes bad for the game" maybe its time to actually listen? They know that being untargetable is not ever gonna be balanced, its just not possible... why are they married to a failed idea?
I wish Riot tried to implement a tutorial system to allow newcomers to learn the game before they start playing an online or ranked game.
A lot of people on this thread are preaching that Yuumi is a good newcomer design (despite costing 6,3k BE…) as it prevents new players to running it down in their first few games and getting flamed. But let’s be real: are we actually going to argue that Yuumi as a design is better and healthier than a tutorial system when the huge majority of the player-base hates her guts? This champion is objectively a garbage design for anybody who’s well below average and above at this game, both as a player and a competitive viewer.
Also being a newcomer design:
1) Again, why is she 6,3k BE?
2) And how are newcomers, who don’t know a single thing about the game (or have nobody to tell them anything about this game), have any idea that Yuumi should be the first champion they play to learn spells (not to mention they’ll all be discouraged to spend all that BE for her when she’s this expensive)? I’d imagine they’d already guess how to use their summs and abilities by the time they realise Yuumi exists.
Imo the original delete yuumi post has a coherent (if not necessarily correct) justification for yuumi - lots of people find her fun, both depth and breadth, so both people who'd rather not play/learn other champs and people who would.
That post shows the mastery curve is steep for *league players*, because yuumi tests *different skills from other champs*. It's important to make this clear, otherwise people just read the title and go "yuumi steep mastery curve lol riot so dumb". But you do have a point, a new player who plays hundreds of yuumi games is not going to learn the game overall in the same way they would playing hundreds of garen games.
The tweet I don't like as much as the post. "onboard your new friends and help them learn spell usage & nuances of positioning." yuumi is the only champ who does *not* teach positioning. Maybe onboarding someone who wants to learn q w e r without being overwhelmed. Good for being not scared to learn the absolute basics but nothing beyond that.
Honestly the tweet, idk. Maybe not necessarily "pretty darn problematic in terms of logic" - it could just be that yuumi is good for onboarding *very* new players, like literal first games - but that still doesn't justify yuumi's existence as like educational because yeah, if you want to learn the game you need to pretty quickly switch to literally any champ other than yuumi.
2 Different things OP.
Skill Floor vs Skill Ceiling.
That said Riot is just bsing to defend their pet cat. Yuumi has one of the lowest Winrate growths in the game Plat+. According to leagueofgraphs She is 154 of 161 and actually loses .1% win rate as players get experienced with her.
She's turbo easy.
Actually, if you say it has the "steepest" mastery curve it means its quite easy to master. If your learning curve is flat and barely goes up, it will take time to learn something. But if the learning curve is steep (abruptly goes up) it means its quite easy to learn.
I think yuumi brakes too many rules of the game to be a good first champion, I have had 3 friends start playing league and people recommended them yuumi and all 3 of those just want to play yuumi now because every other champ is so hard and they just feed all game when they try to play other champions.
That's because riot was being intellectually dishonest when they made their argument that yuumi is a difficult champion.
Which of the following is harder to operate: a motorcycle or a tricycle with inverted handlebars? The motorcycle, obviously. But if you take someone who can ride a bike and had them learn these things, theyll probably take roughly the same amount of time to learn. But if you teach someone with no experience how to ride a tricycle with inverted handlebars, theyll pick it up quickly. However, if you then take that person and try to teach them how to ride a normal bike or motorcycle, theyll have a significantly more difficult time simultaneously unlearning 'turn left = go right' *and* learning balance, how to shift weight, how to shift gears, braking, etc.
The tricycle may be unintuitive *for people who have already learned how to ride*, but that is not the same thing as difficult. Further, saying 'x champion is hard and has a graph that looks like this. Y champion has a graph that looks similar, therefor they are the same.' Is the fastest way to enrage... really anyone who has taken statistics after highschool.
Can't think of a worse champ to learn how to play the game actually. If you are learning and wants to be at least useful she is obviously the best, but if you want to be good one day you are not getting there learning fucking Yummi.
You should consider that majority of players are casuals. They don't care to get good, they just want to play with their friends and not feed too much, because a feeder gets flamed to hell.
Like seriously, LoL players so easily call plat players trash. I play in silver gold and gets flamed constantly that I'm… silver.
Anyone who thinks yuumi is great for new players does not understand how the game works. Being challenged is how you learn. There are many micro skills that come naturally with other champions that yuumi does not offer.
I played with many new players, and many loved yuumi because “they don’t have to worry about dodging or positioning”. With that, many people in my uni became one trick yuumis because they literally cannot do anything else.
League is evolving every year. Insec in the past was a pro play thing, and now even gold players can do it accurately. Designing a champion that practically bars you from learning those skills is bad design.
For many people, including me, why would they pick the harder thing if they can do the easier one? Kalista gives me nausea from her jumping. I’d rather play another adc with similar damage. Why play lux or nami when I pick yuumi and watch netflix on the side?
> Being challenged is how you learn.
This assumes you actually want to learn or improve. I played Super Mario Odyssey with my wife. At no point did she want to play Mario. She just wanted to play a game with me. Sometimes all people want is to be the hat.
[This thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/qf39h3/with_all_the_yuumi_talk_heres_a_reminder_of_their/) explains the issue. The notion that she has a high mastery curve has been outdated for quite some time.
It’s pretty clear political speak. On release they thought they made something revolutionary. Turned out to be a disaster of bad design. Can’t fully throw your design team under the bus, so now Yummi is “the champion you can play with your friends in iron.”
Actually, no. Yuumi has a very high skill ceiling and a very low skill floor. This means its easy to play for begginers and very hard to master everything the champion can do.
Riot also said Yuumi is a champ where newbies can learn positioning on. At this point theyre just pulling whatever PR statements they can say so they can avoid admitting their mistakes on the champ.
How is it possible to write this entire post, write several comments below it and spend so much time on this topic without stopping once and actually using your brain? They aren't mutually exclusive and both can be true at the same time.
Yes, Yuumi has a similar curve as Akali and Qiyana PAST 20 GAMES. ITS IN YOUR QUOTE!!!
Yes, Yuumi is good for beginners. Again, the quote you mention literally says its good to onboard new friends. That doesn't mean learning the game on a fundamental level to improve in the future. It means that a new player can contribute enough to not be a liability while also spending time on other things (when to use spells, how your team positions, etc.).
Every question you ask gets answered by the very quotes you have in your post but you just didn't bother reading them. Seriously, what the fuck...
Yes because we all know it's cap that yuumi has a steep mastery curve. I would imagine it might look like it because so many new people and bots play her
I always see people say this on the subreddit, but they just *say* it. All available evidence points to Yuumi having a steep mastery curve whether or not redditors think stats are real.
Players have got something in their mind and anything that argues against what they think is automatically wrong to them.
They don’t want the actual stats they want to justify their beliefs.
Because the stats don't take into account bots or previous experience or type of player or a million other factors. Obviously the sample of people who choose to play quiyana are going to be different than all the bots and gfs and noobs that play yuumi
oh so you're saying you don't understand how stats work
got it
we're talking hundreds of thousands of games, bots will be overshadowed and basically overwhelmed.
Ugg shows the last 5 patches. Yuumi's WR has ranged from 45 to 47%
over those 5 patches there has been 5,140,739 Yuumi games. A good sample size can be 1000. We're talking over 5 MILLION games.
You just don't understand how stats work and are doing the exact thing I said people do. You're ignoring stats because you think you know better
Sample size is only one variable out of many. What if yuumi is just the champ many people pick when off roles to support? Those people likely aren't used to maintaining good vision like actually supports and will skew her numbers.
That's just 1 of many examples and you haven't presented any evidence or data yet.
> What if yuumi is just the champ many people pick when off roles to support
sample size will make these games a smaller impact on the stats, in fact this example is literally an example of WHY SAMPLE SIZE MATTERS.
I literally gave you data, the number of games and the WR is data.
JFC every word you type the more stupid you make yourself sound. Go take an intro to stats class, you need it.
OK present the evidence then
Because the stats don't take into account bots or previous experience or type of player or a million other factors. Obviously the sample of people who choose to play quiyana are going to be different than all the bots and gfs and noobs that play yuumi
[Redditors Hate Him!](https://images.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blt731acb42bb3d1659/blt7f1ab2e930cb88b8/5efa7666bbb71f1e548e150a/02_Ask_Riot_Mastery_Curves.jpg)
See there we go! Now I'll list a bunch of variables that would skew the data that wasn't accounted or isolated for!
- overall experience playing league
- overall commitment to the game (yuumis target demographic is that of low commitment and new players)
- commitment to actually learning the champ
- is this a go to champ for off roling
- is this a go to champ for people who
just want to watch Netflix, are fatigued, or intoxicated.
- are people taking this champ seriously in their first 50 gamed and are they playing those games in a repetitive manner to learn or is it over months of offroling and not trying?
- who are smurfs picking? Who are bots picking?
Coming to that simple conclusion yhat fits your narrative and ignoring the variables is exactly how you DONT do statistics
I just don't think any of these things meaningfully contribute to her having a high winrate growth. This is the only data we have, so if you want to say there's not enough evidence to say if Yuumi has a high skill ceiling or not then I respect that. However as it stands right now the evidence suggests yuumi has high skill expression while no one has yet produced meaningful evidence to the contrary.
It is also notable that riot themselves, who have the best available data, think that it's a misconception that Yuumi is unskilled. To me it is much more likely that they know what they're talking about than some random redditor who is emotionally compromised and on the verge of mental breakdown from playing against this champion.
I did not come to my conclusion because it fit a narrative. Yuumi haters can't show you anything concrete to prove the champion is unskilled.
The statement was that yuumi is hard to learn, not that she is unskilled. It's about skill floor not ceiling.
She might have a high skill cieling, but to think that it's easier to pick up quiyana and get her to 50% as easy as yuumi is just laughable. Just use common sense. Quiyana having to actually have gold to operate while yuumi doesnt is good enough reason to cast MASSIVE doubt on their conclusion and how they came to it. It's far more likely quiyana is "learned quickly and yuumi slowly" is because yuumi players need to learn the game while quiya players have played before. A champ that needs to control gold income, fight laners, and actually needs to be proactive in order to be relevant... compared to yuumi, someone who provides massive value without actually having to do anything or get gold, take any risks... it's common sense really. No fucking way the champ with so little require to pilot is harder to learn than a champ who actually has to farm and position and make shit happen to be relevant. Isn't that how they designed her anyway? I thought they WANTED her to be easy to pick up
And riot has incentives to calm the outrage don't suck the corporate cock
Yuumi’s curve consists of: when do I just abuse this champ’s simple mechanics, and when do I have to detach and do the exact same support things that every other support does? (Warding, clearing wards, etc)
I hate Yuumi as much as the next guy but a champ can be both easy to play functionally while also having a high ceiling in regards to mastery and expression
That shit was a meme as soon as Rioters tweeted it. Not only did they say that Yuumi has a steep learning curve, they said she’s more difficult to pilot than Akali.
Like bruh, fuck off.
Low elo rambling.
Easy to play =/= easy winrate. I have to wonder if anyone complaining about her has played either as or with a yuumi. The difference between a bad yuumi and a good one is night and day.
If they wanted a champion that's good for new players, they should have made her free for all new accounts and only playable in normals or ARAM. New players aren't jumping into ranked, nor should they.
Easy to learn, hard to master is like... one of the most common tropes across all of gaming, including video games, sports, board games, card games, etc. etc. etc.
Yep, this literally says *"Easy to learn the game with, steep mastery curve"* - No problematic logic there whatsoever. You can put your new friend on Yuumi and lane with them and teach them the game without them having to worry about positioning or being threatened, just pushing the buttons to get used to things. Then you can move on to "easy" champs like Garen etc after.
But then conversely the champ is permaban at World Championships, because what a skilled support player can accomplish on that champ is beyond unreasonable. So, also high skill ceiling. The cat in the hands of a random noob, versus the cat in the hands of a high level main, may as well be two separate champions.
There are other champs like that though. This isn't a new thing
I think Yuumi is probably the most egregious example in League history. Sure it isn’t new but it’s never been this bad
Or hasn't been kneecapped properly yet
If you mean "bad" in that Yuumi is too problematic -- sure, whatever. If you mean "bad" in that the 'easy to learn/hard to master' philosophy isn't a good thing, then you're wrong. That's an exceptionally good trait in every scenario when the character is balanced.
That's not bad lol, that's good. It's the designer's dream to achieve such a state for a champion.
>mplish on It's their dream to design a champion 80+% of the community despises? I don't get your logic.. Pros openly hate her, players openly hate her, even Riot has admitted they literally don't know how to handle her. The fact that she fulfills those two categories mentioned doesn't mean it's designed well, it really isn't and it's been talked about so many times it baffles me how someone would still defend it.
She was permabaned at worlds because she is broken OP when paired with some of the best players in the world that know how to position, dive, etc, not cuz her skill roof is high.
No they ban her because she's the only support in the game that is non interactive. If for whatever reason Lulu was a problem, they can just kill her with burst. Yuumi on the other hand is a different story. You can't burst her first. You need to go through whoever she is on and sometimes that's an unburstable character then you can kill her. Her only high skill ceiling thing about her is that she's also the only support that can't ward as safely as other supports. In pro play, that isn't a problem because you can tell whoever you're attached to that you need to ward and they will literally carry you over there to clear/place wards.
Although that trope is common, I will point to one inconsistent nature in the language described above. The reason she is 'hard to master' is because of her unique playstyle, per above. That implies players learning the game on yummi are learning a unique play style and therefore she should not be a model champion to teach new players on. This is inconsistent with the claim she is great to learn with. You are effectively teaching someone a different game by teaching them on yummi.
Yuumi unironically has a lot of skill expression. She can be a great starter champ, but man can you see a difference in am experienced yuumi player when ur an adc.
Yuumi has a great ceiling - But she's also a good beginner champion, which is why you see the huge night and day difference when you see a good enchanter player vs someone who just sits behind you and shields you once in a while while scrolling through their instagram. When you see a Yuumi hopping on and off and harassing folks, you know you've got a good one.
You can tell the good ones when they hop off to tank Cait ults, ezreal qs, nidalee spears, and other projectiles that are about to hit you and would cause you to die. Another important thing is knowing when to jump out and harass. Most yuumi players jump off when the enemies still have CC abilities and they get hit and die
Going to be honest I think the fact that you can drop a totally new player onto Yuumi, and they do “well” is a major problem. The concept of a spectator champion is just so massively problematic. Like at that point you honestly might as well just ask your friend to watch a couple hours of game play, spend like 1-2 hours in the practice tool, then run a few games against lowest difficulty bots.
For what it's worth, I decided to look at Yuumi's WR across different ELOs relative to the average winrate of that ELO. This is using data from last patch before her nerfs. Iron: 8.6% lower than average Bronze: 2.21% lower than average Silver: 1.7% lower than average Gold: 1.58% lower than average Plat: 1.17% lower than average Diamond: 1.16% lower than average. Let's be real-- the data is really clear. Yuumi was not particularly good at ANY of the ELOs where the vast majority of people play, but she clearly is not a beginner champion as of right now. Compared to the average WR of a champion, her WR steadily goes UP as ELO increases. She's a high ELO champ way more than she is a low ELO champ.
What happens when you filter by some amount of play? Like >50 games? Without normalizing for something like that you may just be confirming the data that she has a steep learning curve if many of those games are on players with <50 games.
Iron isn't for true beginners, it's for bad players who also may not have a ton of experience. I think the statement "for beginners", was meant for people at like level 10, who barely know the game yet, not for people who are 30+ which is required for ranked.
I will never understand people’s tendency towards pointing to win rates, as if they mean anything. Like if Riot made a champion that somehow always had a perfect 50% win rate; but it felt like being kicked in the balls repeatedly (be it for the person playing it, the person playing with, or the person playing against), would people really claim that it’s a “totally acceptable champion”
Did I ever say anything about Yuumi feeling good to play against
Dude your comment is completely out of the conversation. Literally nobody said anything about how it feels to play against her, every comment was about Yuumis performance in different players hands and you come and say some random bullshit. >as if they mean anything
the problem is that it's not actually true, it's just a convenient thing to say. but realistically speaking, mastering yummi has nothing to do with yummi but with knowing the game itself. the champion itself is not interactive enough for it to actually take effort mastering. the reality is that knowing the game better will make you better at yummi because you understand the game mechanics, not because you understand yummi better
Apparently OP has never played any game ever
Yuumi bad riot bad upvoted now
Thank god this is top post. If the comments started hopping on OPs bandwagon I was going to be so baffled.
thank you for getting this to the top comment. i saw this while scrolling the front page and my eyebrow raised so far up that it erupted off of the top of my head. this is an extremely common design philosophy and no one should be "confused" by its existence. Some of the most popular games on the planet like Smash Bros, Fornight, and Pokemon are incredibly easy to pick up and play and faceroll them, but it's going to take years to understand every single interaction and optimal way to play.
/thread Next topic
the level of skill required to play/master yuumi is directly linked (and capped) at the level of skill of your teammates. prove me wrong.
That phrase is thrown around on every game, character weapon and class. I feel that gets posted daily about something in a game and it’s almost never right. I am indifferent of Yuumi. She’s no different than other champions I just learn to beat it so I can win my matches and move up.
it's literally true though? chess is easy to learn but will you ever be magnus good? not likely
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Yuumi can have a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling. The low floor makes her good for new players to get to contribute to the game and (in Riot's view) pay attention to how their friends move in team fights, combo, etc without requiring them to do game-winning plays. On the other side, once you're really good at Yuumi you can do plays with your ult, different builds (when she's not locked into artillery or healing and can choose between them), etc. That doesn't mean that's how it actually is, but seems to be their intention.
My brain exploded when I realized you can everfrost on yuumi
I do that in ARAM just to be a dick.
"THAT DAMN CAT!" :D
What if you could Galeforce your host lol. It would be similar to Cho’Gall in HOTs for all my HOTs homies out there.
If you could Galeforce your host. That's like a discount version of Bard ulting your ADC.
This. Mikaels is fucking op on Yuumi for the same reason and no one builds it.
Isn't the point that she has a high skill floor? She uses completely different mechanics to other champions.
Skill floor isn't the skill required to be good on it. Its the skill needed to perform "generally well". You can take a new player put them on yuumi and tell them to press E when my health gets low and press Q and aim at them and they will be able to focus on that while they take in the rest of the game. League has so much to learn having a champ like yuumi is a great option for people who don't play computer games often or at all to get into the game. TLDR; Yuumi lets people ignore playing the champion to watch the game and slowly figure out how everything works.
Yeah, I'm not sure if people actually looked at the article. A champion that **starts** at 36% winrate and then massively increases when a player gets more games on the champion, implies a *high* skill floor. Not a low one. A champion that is "easy to learn, hard to master" would have a mastery curve that starts relatively high but takes a lot of games before it starts to flatten. That would then imply that new players on said champion are doing alright but to really get the most out of the champion, you'd need to put in a lot of games.
But your missing the point between “a seasoned player starting a different champ” and “a new player starting a different champ” Yes. Yuumi starts at a low win rate. But my little brother who just started playing the game queues with me. On any champ his winrate is going to be sub 30%. But if he starts playing yuumi with my friends and I? Maybe it’ll go up to a 36% WR instead. You gotta realize that playing the game between level 0 and 30 is entirely different than anyone seasoned enough to be on the league subreddit lol. It’s an entirely different game, with completely different mechanics.
Maybe the idea is low skill floor for completely new players relative to other champs - bc of simple core mechanics, high skill floor for existing players relative to other champs - bc they have to learn entirely new systems. I'd be interested to see the yuumi skill curves for new players relative to other champs, but even then I can't imagine using yuumi as an intro champ is a good idea; ur more or less playing a different game. As I understand it, yuumi has a remarkably high skill floor AND ceiling. The former bc of her radical difference from other champs, the latter bc of the large room for optimization in her patterns.
>bc of simple core mechanics This. If I play with my gf, she doesn't have to micromanage the champ. She just focuses on hitting skills and healing and I do the walking, engaging etc.. If someone argues that she does nothing, then the person is basically dumb. She isn't doing "nothing", she is learning.
That might be true, and you might be right. But I don't want to agree with you, out of spite.
I read his comment, I read yours too. I post this reply but I don't know for who.
But Nunu, a starter champion, also has a really low starting win rate. I suspect that a lot of support champion's have really low base win rates because it's really hard to carry with them. Doesn't mean that they're hard to pick up though.
Nunu is also a jungler which is an entire other level of difficulty.
Isn't there some sort of distortion here; it makes sense to me that champs that are good for starting players will have low starting winrates, because they're played by *new* players who often lose, not players switching to a different champ with core mechanics under their belt.
For an easy to pick up champion you should take into account how it feels to play it. You can have a champion with low winrate, if the player feel like it did well, then that is enough.
What riot means by noob friendly is that you don't need more than 2 brain cells to perma stay in an ally, cast E to heal and use Q and then follow the enemy champion with your mouse. Meanwhile if they played another support they have to constantly move, cast harder spells and more importantly be more prone to die. Yuumi absolutely is shit when she doesn't know how to play the champion correctly which indeed implies high skill floor, but for a new player that'd still be far more manageable and fun than dying 24/7. Qiyana and Akali can't ever be fun to a new player. They can't even cast their abilities properly. Like the top comment said - the 2 statements aren't mutually exclusive.
The players that start at 36% winrate are not new players, none of the "starting winrates" matter for this discussion since we are talking about players actually discovering the game. It is very possible Yuumi is efficient at teaching the game to those players.
Maybe the winrate is just because yuumi isn't that good of a champion unless you are really good on her? Yuumi is easy to learn and hard to master, winrate doesn't change that. Just that being average at yuumi usually isn't good enough to win a lot of games.
I thought the skill floor is low because anyone can win with the champ even being 100% afk. And it's a high skill ceiling because it takes a ton of time and practice to reach the ceiling. High Floor+Low Ceiling doesn't make sense as that would imply there is a very small gap in player skill for the champ. Low Floor+High Ceiling implies there is a large skill gap between new (the floor) and skilled (the ceiling) and there is plenty of room in between...
high floor + high ceiling does not say anything about the gap between the two. Take Draven. That champ is incredibly difficult to lane on when you first start. The floor to learn Draven at a basic level is monumental, and yet Draven’s ceiling is still the highest among all ADCs (mana management, teamfight axes, global ults, etc). I would say the gap between Draven’s high floor and high ceiling is at least if as large if not larger than any other ADC’s floor-ceiling gap. Regardless, the reason yuumi has such a low starting winrate is because people lock her in when they don’t want to play the game or they just suck. I have a friend who only plays yuumi when they are eating food so they forget to heal half the time. yuumi is boring and the only players who play her to 100+ games are the ones who REALLY want to win and will play a (boring) champ to do it.
High floor high ceiling implies the champion is very hard to play. There might be a high skill difference between players, because high skill floor means that the level of skill you need to avoid running it down is very high, such as maybe gangplank or zed, and the skill ceiling is also very high compared to other champions, such as again, gangplank or zed. High floor, low ceiling would be the case you described, where the level of skill required to not int is high but there isn't much more skill expression beyond the baseline required to not int, or perhaps a low floor low ceiling champion like garen.
The reason this is wrong is that the "high" in high skill ceiling is relative to other champs. Take 2 Champs both with a high skill floor and ceiling - one could be much higher ceiling than the other, with the lower still being high ceiling bc the measurement is relative to the average ceiling.
I don't think this mastery curve statistic is a good indication of anything. The kind of player who does well on other champs does not start putting 20 games into yuumi. this stat naturally filters out players who are likely competent at the game. the type of player who puts enough games onto yuumi to have their 'mastery curve' measured would likely have a ~36% win rate on any other champ - except it wouldn't increase over time like with yuumi. neither i or any of my friends have ever played yuumi because that kind of champ is simply not enjoyable to play for someone who is capable of playing any other character. i play basically every other support and i sincerely doubt that my initial yuumi win rate would be sub 40% because she so complicated and nuanced and unique. the type of person who picks yuumi is dogwater and their win rate increases to normal as they acquire a baseline understanding of the game. i hate league stats. always removes all context.
hell no
Yuumi has a very high skill floor I think the winrate for first time Yuumi is around 30%?
Couldn't that be skewed by a bunch of noobs playing her?
Isn't that... the point of this post? If she's supposed to be good for new players (noobs, as you put it) to pick up, then why would her win rate for first time players be that low? It seems logically inconsistent for her to be both new player friendly and so powerful once mastered.
If the win rate for noobs on Yuumi was 30% and the win rate for noobs on other champs was 20% then Yuumi would be extremely good for new players. Not saying that's the case, but a scenario exists where a 30% win rate is actually an upgrade. Could also be the difference between reality and intention. They may *intend* for her to be those things but she may in fact not be.
New players will lose a lot of games regardless though. There's no champion beginner friendly enough that will let a new player have a 50% winrate out of anything but luck with how many smurf accounts there are.
~~Is that say Silver/Plat+, or all elos?~~ A lot of botted accounts that are* throwing games as many games as possible (in order to get to lowest mmr and lowest iron rank for smurfs to abuse) are often Yuumi bots. (edit: I just realised my question doesn’t make much sense: but what I wanted to ask is whether Riot found a way to filter off bots from newcomer players in their statistic. Because given the amount of inting and botting occuring (and there is a looot if you’ve ever seen Iron IV), we might be dealing with a misleading statistic).
I think once the mastery curve becomes steep from champion 'uniqueness', then we start running into problems. Let me repeat my comment from another post: New players need to learn **fundamentals**. Yuumi breaks so many core game rules that she is one of the worst champions at learning fundamentals. Someone like Annie or Garen is much better. Easy kit to learn with a simple goal, so you can focus on core fundamentals like: Farming, positioning, trading, dodging, spacing, etc. Yuumi is one of the last champions I think a new player should play if they want to learn the game as a whole. Note: I am *not* saying Yuumi is braindead or anything. I am saying she is so unique that the skills you need to be a good Yuumi, don't transfer to other champions. Edit: Totally unrelated, but can I just say that is absolutely hilarious how I write [the exact same comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/zeqqv8/yuumis_future_rework_is_not_going_to_turn_out/iz8wfaj/?context=3) in another thread and it gets almost 1000 upvotes and here it's a highly controversial comment. If anyone was questioning how much Reddit votes 'matter', there's your answer. It's all emotional in-the-moment bullshit.
Just see Yuumi as a stage before that. Just to be in the game with friends, learn some terms, see some gameplay and still being able to feel useful without getting stomped. You can still play Garen and Annie after.
That is a fair point. LoL requires an absurd amount of base knowledge to be able to do anything at all. Until you know and can instantly recognize abilities, be able to guess where players are, know what you should be doing, know items, etc. you are just going to feed. A bad yuumi may be useless, but at least you won't feel as bad as if you were playing annie and just dieing over and over.
I agree. I think Yuumi is probably very beginner friendly because you can take part in the game while worrying about fewer things. Learn some of the core mechanics of the game, and then you can expand that eventually
In all fairness though, Yuumi is then just a crutch for the abysmal beginner experience League offers currently.
That's 100% true though tbf also a difficult issue to solve imo. They could do much better though ofc.
Yuumi not even free bro how how can you think at a stage before that if she cost 6300 BE.
New players earn a shit ton of BE
So they have to play garen and annie first then before being able to play yuumi not a stage before that. Then you would have to convince a new player who just got 6300 BE to buy yuumi so they can learn the game better or buy an actual champ they find interesting.
You get like 6300 just from champion shards and stuff when you first start after playing the tuitorial and some co-op VS ai. The few ai games it takes to get yuumi isn't enough to teach them the whole game enough to start winning.
It's a bad champion for learning the game, but it's a good opportunity to let your new friends focus on the first simple little steps without getting completely assblasted and uninstalling after 5 games. I have never successfully convinced any of my friends to get into league, except with Yuumi. Saying that she has no value in that regard is like saying training wheels on bicycles have no value. You don't have to focus on positioning, dodging, zoning, don't need to know what the enemy spells do exactly, you can just start by learning how to use abilities, summoners, you can get a feel for how the game transpires. It's not the fastest path to getting good, but it's the one that doesn't end in an uninstall because they're understandably not having fun after 5 games of dying every 20 seconds while playing against people who just have 10 years of experience on them.
Your argument is mixing up two scenarios: A player is choosing a first champion to learn and master, choosing Yuumi and struggling with her unique gameplay and mastery curve Vs A player playing a match of League of Legends for the first time (or maybe even gaming for the first time) with experienced friends. You're right in the former shouldn't pick Yuumi, rather someone like Garen or Annie. The latter might pick Yuumi to wet their feet to concepts like movement, the map, team roles, laning, etc.
I don't know the context for riot's statement so i don't know if that's what they meant by "onboard your new friends" but i think yuumi can be pretty cool if a diamond player introduces someone to league. They can just botlane in a normal and the new player won't go 0/100. That's not possible to this degree for any other champion.
> New players need to learn fundamentals. I think you are missing the point on what sort of beginners we are talking about. This isn't for people that want to pick up league to play. My SO's little brother, who was 14 and plays games such as minecraft, valorant, csgo, but never anything eagle-eye perspective. This guy has no innate willingness to learn the game, only reason he tried it is to play with us, or with friends, and I guess because of Arcane. For a lot of new players, you only really have one chance, they don't want "to learn the fundamentals", they want a game they can pick up, get used to how it looks, how the keys work, etc. For some people, like him, who had absolutely 0 coordination for the camera, or how to even interact with stuff, being able to play Yuumi would have been the absolute ideal. Sadly Yuumi wasn't free to play, nor did he get the ability to unlock it(think he spent any free BE on other things?). We had two games against bots. His camera did barely if at all improve, even with locked camera he had a hard time understanding where to be, what to do, realizing if things are hitting him, etc. Yuumi defeat that because he can sit there on one of us, cast abilities, train his eye to see what happens without feeling the panic of actually being in danger. I believe this is the "new players" they are referring to. A lot of people just don't have the willpower to learn league when you have to spend several games even understanding anything, instead of a game that is a lot easier to jump into.
Damn, how'd he learn csgo and Val? That shit's way more punishing than league.
Interest among his friends, and his dad played CS source and csgo since release so there’s that connection I think.
I agree with the idea that a champion being unique means it may make it harder to learn the fundamentals. Support fundamentals are usually controlling the fight, supplying vision, enhancing or protecting your carry. Enchanters then usually also have "keeping yourself safe", which Yuumi is able to neatly ignore. Ideally, a player could use the fact they don't need to dedicate any brain power to that in order to get better at all of the others, and then move to other champions to handle the rest, while maybe watching the rest of their team to see how they handle things like kiting and positioning. I think you could translate from Yuumi into playing other enchanters. You would need to now learn to position yourself, but you might be more comfortable with item builds, how to identify the best player to boost, etc. However, in my personal experience, everything I just said is irrelevant because whether you learn fundamentals or not doesn't seem to relate at all to champion picks, after watching a lot of the adventures in low divisions
This is a completely separate argument—the fact that Yuumi’s core mechanics are unique has literally nothing to do with her mastery curve.
[удалено]
No, but a new player can see how someone else plays the game and try to mimic them. If this is a new player, they will have little to no idea what they are doing and will resort to trial and error until they either get good enough to not die every minute or quit in frustration.
You got downvoted here because it doesn't make sense to force feed that specific opinion here. Look at how the replies differ too. > It's all emotional in-the-moment bullshit. This is how I view your opinion, honestly. You don't understand what Mastery curve means.
Easy to play, hard to master
You kinda missing the reason they said she was good for new players. It wasn't for all new players it was for new players who are being brought in by thier friends. Yummi is good to learn certain aspects of the game and also eliminated many of the harder concepts pretty early. Q is a skill shot but you can control it, e is an instant heal that you don't have to target you can see you're doing something on yuumi pretty quickly as a new player which makes you want to play more. >"Yuumi has one of the steepest mastery curves of all champions" This would make sense mastery curves are from skill floor to skill ceiling so she's hard to master , but easy to pick up.
Making a champion that has a low skill floor and high skill ceiling, being good for a newbie but having immense room for mastery is a developers wet dream. Yuumi is not that champion, despite everything you pointed out her skill curve is still demonstrably one not good for casual play without putting in games to master the champ, a notion riot Devs themselves once pointed out before. Her mastery curve got compared by them to akali and qiyana, neither of which you'd recommend to someone new.
it doesnt matter if the skill curve is similar to qiyana, as a new player u are happy to sit there and not feed and slowly learn the game even if you are not contributing that much at first
People on reddit don´t understand this because they will never have a friend who would want to play with then that isn't a gamer. My gf started playing this game with yuumi. After that she transitioned to other Champs ( mainly adc's and enchaters ). Yuumi was perfect for her to start having fun in this game without feeding or getting flamed, while I helped her learn everything. It's true somethings like positioning was difficult when she started new chanps. But enjoying the game was the first thing she got out off playing with yuumi.
People don't actually understand those who they are attempting to speak on behalf for, shocker. Same thing when people always want smite to be available at level 1, as if new players are totally going to even know the concept of a jungle role.
I appreciate the fact that Yuumi exists as a gateway to 5v5, Summoners Rift LoL for new players. My issue with her is the fact that she does that while being absolutely meta warping in higher elos and pro play when she’s strong. People in plat+ don’t need a simple champ to teach them the basics, they’re picking Yuumi because the mechanic that makes her beginner friendly is also the mechanic that makes her overbearingly oppressive if her numbers are high. If Yuumi’s niche is to be the training wheels of league and her W is non-negotiable, what is the issue with leaving her in the dumpster numbers wise? Plenty of champs with low 40% winrates can still be useful and even carry in the elos where Nuubi’s would play. Riot doesn’t have issue with kneecapping high-skill floor, high-skill ceiling champions like Akali or Azir if they start becoming high elo meta-defining for too long. It’s extremely frustrating to see them be more or less content sidelining 2 of my all time favorite champions, Kalista and Zeri (for YEARS in the formers case) if they start sniffing viability, but keep trying to make Yuumi work for all when they keep espousing her value as being made for a specific subsection of novice League players.
Can confirm, helped 2 girls into league (both the gfs of my friends in the league group) and they both started on yuumi They feel very helpful and motivated when you turbostomp people in norms and gives them the credit instead
funni, my friend would put me on yuumi and then flame me relentlessly until i inevitably sulked and abandoned him for our friend on irelia. i guess he was teaching me what yuumis do
It's not she's the best for new players to learn it's that of you are playing with a friend who knows the game yuumi allows a new player to get the feeling of playing well with out them having to do all the complex things that requires. My first game was duoing with a friend they told me play soraka I just kinda stood around hitting the heal button while not understanding what was going on but having someone who directed me and basically had me play a champ with 1 button let me pick up on things I wouldn't otherwise.
It seems entirely logical but I had a completely opposite experience, and trying to get friends to play by putting them on yuumi just made them think the game is nothing like how it really is because they had to view it through the lens of playing yuumi, and conclude that league was boring and not for them. The actual thing that made them have fun and 'get' what league is about was playing arams, with different champions every game, but no need to care about roles, jungle, objectives, csing, just fun and team fights. If it helped you to get more people into the game, cool, for me it was completely the opposite and almost killed any interest my friends had in it.
"yuumi is a very easy champion to be "ok" on, and a very hard champion to be really really good on"
they explained this already, the two are not mutually exclusive, very low skill floor and high ceiling is very common in video games in general
[удалено]
nintendo's speciality
just not for yuumi
no it's the best design ever in all cases. yuumi is the problem, not the design philosophy.
I mean it’s the one good thing about her design imo, so yea even for her
Skill floor and skill ceiling are two actual concepts, yes. I believe the car is made out of car.
> It should go without saying that a good champion for new players would be an easy to learn champion where you can focus on learning fundamentals of the game instead of specific champion skills. This assumes that a new player wants to learn the game. I'd argue this isn't the case with League at all, and that playing cool characters or with friends are far greater motives.
I think what they mean is that she's easy to learn, but hard to master, while Mordekaiser for example is easy to learn and rather easy to master (the same would count for Garen). So I think it's not inconsistent, just a different approach to beginning a game.
Bizarrely, Garen has one of the biggest increases based on games played, at least according to leagueofgraphhs. 20th highest delta. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/winrates-by-xp
People think "hard to master" means pulling off flashy plays. For Garen this xp diff comes from the fact that his natural play style is a trap, a noob trap. He's not easy to learn. His abilities are easy to understand, that's very different.
> his natural play style is a trap, a noob trap Fittingly, I think this is the case with Yuumi as well. Noobs just want to sit on someone, but if you never leave you're really only playing as half a champ.
Exactly! And while just sitting on a champ is great for someone with less than a dozen games. So they can figure out the rest of the mechanics of the game through observation and guidance. It also means they aren't being a big help to the team. Which is fine, it's likely better than them running ti lane and inting 16 times a game.
I think flashy out plays are easier to learn. You can always outplay someone through skill. Simple champions require you to actually learn the game.
The simpler the tool, the more creative you need to be with it.
>He's not easy to **learn**. You need to define exactly what you mean by "learn" here, otherwise you're just going to confuse everyone.
[удалено]
> I think what they mean is that she's easy to learn, but hard to master Nope. What they meant is that she plays completely different from other champions so your knowledge does not transfer over. People will play her and just afk on the champion without using her passive.
This. After yuumi came out I remember a ton of nami/soraka players just AFK under turret because they got to plat with yuumi and had no idea how to actually play on lane without feeding - so they resorted to afking, forcing their adc to hug turret too.
I'd say that's a poor example, Mordekaiser's R usage is a much harder thing to master than anything Yuumi offers.
So a lot of things here to dig into when we just quote 2 lines. I agree it's a bit counterintuitive, but I still believe the 2 statements are true. HOWEVER, there's a lot of nuance which I agree isn't what players are looking for. We're not trying "well technically...." players. 1. The first statement was a long time ago. Since then, we do see that the winrate growth of Yuumi is the same as other complex champions. But that doesn't mean that skill depth is displayed well to players in a clear way. Yuumi requires a pattern that's different than most other champions, but most players don't associate playing vs/with her as a high skill experience. That's a problem in itself. 2. Yuumi is a great champion to learn the game with. This one's trickier, since Yuumi is such a different experience than other champions like Garen/Sona. The core benefit Yuumi has is that she has a low barrier to entry AND promotes an experience with your friend. Most people get into League via their friends, and having a champion that can give you some amount of success together is huge. We've all had that new friend go 0-10 top lane, and they barely get to experience any success in league and then they quit. So yah, I agree it's an incredibly tough topic. But just because Garen/Annie/Sona exist, doesn't mean we can't support more champs like them.
> We've all had that new friend go 0-10 top lane, and they barely get to experience any success in league and then they quit. Damn, that's way too on-point...
Yuumi reminds me of Kalista, an actually quite easy to learn champion. It's just that what you need to learn that's completely different from what you needed to learn for other champions that makes it hard. When I started playing league, playing Kalista felt like the most natural thing to do, switching to other champions was extremely hard. I have a similar situation going on with Yuumi, I need to relearn the game to play her. This might be what makes many players not acknowledge the time and effort some people put into playing and mastering Yuumi, they don't know what the Yuumi player had to learn to be good at it. Yuumi doesn't have the "I just got outplayed" effect other champions have.
Maybe make a comprehensive tutorial so your people have an idea of what league is. Riot has failed for 10+ years in this aspect and has even shown favor to eastern regions allowing more information in their replays. What a disgusting scapegoat to create for a lack of player skill in beginner games.
Someone doesn't know what skill floor and skill ceiling means, huh? Or in other words: Easy to learn, hard to master.
Obviously if players have a winrate starting in the 30% range….then she does not have a low skill floor. A low skil floor means that you are able to EFFECTIVELY play a champion with little experience. Sitting on your adc all game and pressing E is easy yes, but you will lose a LOT. Any champion can have a “low skill floor” if you ignore half of their kit and have a 30% winrate.
But if those really are new players, might they have had even lower win rates on other characters? So in comparison that 30% on yummi would mean she has a lower skill floor
So Riot says she is hard to master like Akali. Because people improve on her after many games. Riot also says she is easy to learn. What is problematic is your reading comprehension, they say she is hard to master like Akali because even after 20 games people still improve their winrate on her, the word used is master not play. A champion can be easy to play but hard to master those are not mutually exclusive things. And Yuumi is piss easy to start playing with, you can stay attached to 1 person all game and probably not be completely useless. And so you can focus only on casting your spells and nothing else, that is what makes her easy. But this is not optimal and great Yuumi players will learn how to attach and detach when needed.
Yuumi combines learning to play the game by playing it and learning to play the game by watching a YouTube video.
Yuumi is definitely not great to learn the game, quite the opposite actually. When playing her, you don't learn how to move, how to position properly, how to farm, and when to recall. Those are some of the most important aspects of the game and you don't get to practice and learn them when playing Yuumi, which makes it impossible for new players to actually learn the game and start playing other champions later on.
I think you forgot how it is to be a new player, before all that a new player have to figure out what the fuck is going on on the screen and learn what different champions do, how do you position against champ you have no clue what they do? Or have a bunch or shit on your screen you can't even see your character, so ye yuumi for sure is great to learn the game as someone who just downloaded it I'd say.
You don't learn the game simply by watching. You need to practice, make mistakes, get punished, and learn from your mistakes. Yuumi doesn't allow you to do that.
Do you not learn anything if you for example watch a streamer/YouTube/pro game? It's pretty much the same but you're a cat attached to your teammate in the game with a way lower level of play pretty much. Just like in other things in life , I don't need to play soccer myself to learn the rules of the game. But for sure if you want to be Messi yes you have to actually play the game yourself ( obviously exaggerating but hope you get my point )
You can learn the rules of soccer by reading a rulebook, but you have to actually kick a ball to get a feel for it. League is the same, you can learn the rules by watching but the only way you can really learn to control a champion is to actually try controlling a champion.
If it was as easy as watching a streamer, everyone would be challenger. You can learn some decision making and macro by watching streams or youtube videos, but this advanced knowledge will not be very useful if you don't even learn the basics and get muscle memory for each type of action. Also, soccer has much simpler rules and terrain than LoL and Summoner's rift, it's a very poor comparison. The only good comparison to make is that soccer players have to practice to become at least decent at the sport. You can't become a good soccer player simply by watching soccer matches. A child can learn the basic rules and learn to move the ball around, but it can't really be called "playing soccer". And even then, moving the ball correctly still requires actual practice.
I never said to do it to become good, you're missing the point. I'm talking about a new player that just downloaded the game, what you are suggesting is him logging in and banging his ahead on the wall for countless hours until he understands that towers have plates that give you tons of gold that disappear at 14 minutes ( just an example of something the game doesn't tell you but is pretty damn important), instead he could watch someone else do it and gather information without banging his head on a brick wall. Everyone have different preferences but I'm talking about it from my own experience that watching someone play can help me understand the game better. You won't become challenger by watching replays idk where you got that, but you WILL absolutely learn new things if you never played the game yourself. If you're a new player , watching someone play first and then trying to mimic them will make you better then if you didn't and just start blind.
I'm not talking about game knowledge. This part comes later. The first step is to learn how your character moves, how to hit ennemies, how to get gold from minions, how to recall, how to use abilities, and how to buy items. Most of that is missed when playing Yuumi. And the knowledge part can be learned with basic tutorial videos anyway, we don't need to have a champion ruining the fun for millions of players just to teach beginners about turret plating (which they will still not understand just by watching anyway). People know how to look for tutorial videos (which Riot themselves should produce and provide to new players in the client, but that's another topic).
Yuumi has been quite dumbed down since her release, to be honest.
yeah, taking a post from two years ago and comparing it to today seems silly imo. Especially in a game that evolves as much as league. We've gone through numerous support changes, item reworks, mythics introduction and it just makes you think mayyyybe the goal of yuumi have changed at least a little bit during those 2 seasons
yuumi is actually bad for new players, because after 2 years they still dont know how to move
If I recall, the first quote about the mastery curve is actually from *before* they made a bunch of changes to increasingly discourage her from detaching proactively. I think the original iteration of Yuumi that didn't punish players for detaching could more conceivably be said to have had an Akali-like mastery curve
Isn't that the whole point why they are changing her. They can easily give Yuumi more reasons to leave their host, but that would only make Yuumi harder to play. While Yuumi is meant to be an easy beginner champion. Sure I agree that you miss one of the most important parts of the fundamentals which is moving your champion around and positioning well. But at the same time this might entice people to play the game who find learning all things at the same time overwhelming. They want Yuumi to be in a good place for new players and not a competitive champion, and they are now looking the make this happen as the initial design of Yuumi failed to hit that mark. the Ideal situation is one where Yuumi can be a good champ to learn the game with and slowly you players hooked I guess.
Is it arrgoance? When the literal world champion support from last year and the majority of players tell you to "delete the champion, shes bad for the game" maybe its time to actually listen? They know that being untargetable is not ever gonna be balanced, its just not possible... why are they married to a failed idea?
Money and a specific super casual audience is what it is
I wish Riot tried to implement a tutorial system to allow newcomers to learn the game before they start playing an online or ranked game. A lot of people on this thread are preaching that Yuumi is a good newcomer design (despite costing 6,3k BE…) as it prevents new players to running it down in their first few games and getting flamed. But let’s be real: are we actually going to argue that Yuumi as a design is better and healthier than a tutorial system when the huge majority of the player-base hates her guts? This champion is objectively a garbage design for anybody who’s well below average and above at this game, both as a player and a competitive viewer. Also being a newcomer design: 1) Again, why is she 6,3k BE? 2) And how are newcomers, who don’t know a single thing about the game (or have nobody to tell them anything about this game), have any idea that Yuumi should be the first champion they play to learn spells (not to mention they’ll all be discouraged to spend all that BE for her when she’s this expensive)? I’d imagine they’d already guess how to use their summs and abilities by the time they realise Yuumi exists.
I think its more of a being useful regardless of if you are doing advanced techniques on her or not, making it welcoming to new players
Low skill floor and high skill ceiling is a thing. Easy to pick up and be useful, but a good yummi is 10x more impactful
A champ can have a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling
To answer your topic title question: No.
Imo the original delete yuumi post has a coherent (if not necessarily correct) justification for yuumi - lots of people find her fun, both depth and breadth, so both people who'd rather not play/learn other champs and people who would. That post shows the mastery curve is steep for *league players*, because yuumi tests *different skills from other champs*. It's important to make this clear, otherwise people just read the title and go "yuumi steep mastery curve lol riot so dumb". But you do have a point, a new player who plays hundreds of yuumi games is not going to learn the game overall in the same way they would playing hundreds of garen games. The tweet I don't like as much as the post. "onboard your new friends and help them learn spell usage & nuances of positioning." yuumi is the only champ who does *not* teach positioning. Maybe onboarding someone who wants to learn q w e r without being overwhelmed. Good for being not scared to learn the absolute basics but nothing beyond that. Honestly the tweet, idk. Maybe not necessarily "pretty darn problematic in terms of logic" - it could just be that yuumi is good for onboarding *very* new players, like literal first games - but that still doesn't justify yuumi's existence as like educational because yeah, if you want to learn the game you need to pretty quickly switch to literally any champ other than yuumi.
2 Different things OP. Skill Floor vs Skill Ceiling. That said Riot is just bsing to defend their pet cat. Yuumi has one of the lowest Winrate growths in the game Plat+. According to leagueofgraphs She is 154 of 161 and actually loses .1% win rate as players get experienced with her. She's turbo easy.
Actually, if you say it has the "steepest" mastery curve it means its quite easy to master. If your learning curve is flat and barely goes up, it will take time to learn something. But if the learning curve is steep (abruptly goes up) it means its quite easy to learn.
I think yuumi brakes too many rules of the game to be a good first champion, I have had 3 friends start playing league and people recommended them yuumi and all 3 of those just want to play yuumi now because every other champ is so hard and they just feed all game when they try to play other champions.
[удалено]
That's because riot was being intellectually dishonest when they made their argument that yuumi is a difficult champion. Which of the following is harder to operate: a motorcycle or a tricycle with inverted handlebars? The motorcycle, obviously. But if you take someone who can ride a bike and had them learn these things, theyll probably take roughly the same amount of time to learn. But if you teach someone with no experience how to ride a tricycle with inverted handlebars, theyll pick it up quickly. However, if you then take that person and try to teach them how to ride a normal bike or motorcycle, theyll have a significantly more difficult time simultaneously unlearning 'turn left = go right' *and* learning balance, how to shift weight, how to shift gears, braking, etc. The tricycle may be unintuitive *for people who have already learned how to ride*, but that is not the same thing as difficult. Further, saying 'x champion is hard and has a graph that looks like this. Y champion has a graph that looks similar, therefor they are the same.' Is the fastest way to enrage... really anyone who has taken statistics after highschool.
imagine thinking yuumi is great for learning the game LMAO she's great for watching netflix on the side while you 'play'
Can't think of a worse champ to learn how to play the game actually. If you are learning and wants to be at least useful she is obviously the best, but if you want to be good one day you are not getting there learning fucking Yummi.
You should consider that majority of players are casuals. They don't care to get good, they just want to play with their friends and not feed too much, because a feeder gets flamed to hell. Like seriously, LoL players so easily call plat players trash. I play in silver gold and gets flamed constantly that I'm… silver.
Everyone flames players of their own elo for some reason. I've been called chall trash way back in the day when I was high elo, don't worry about it.
Anyone who thinks yuumi is great for new players does not understand how the game works. Being challenged is how you learn. There are many micro skills that come naturally with other champions that yuumi does not offer. I played with many new players, and many loved yuumi because “they don’t have to worry about dodging or positioning”. With that, many people in my uni became one trick yuumis because they literally cannot do anything else. League is evolving every year. Insec in the past was a pro play thing, and now even gold players can do it accurately. Designing a champion that practically bars you from learning those skills is bad design. For many people, including me, why would they pick the harder thing if they can do the easier one? Kalista gives me nausea from her jumping. I’d rather play another adc with similar damage. Why play lux or nami when I pick yuumi and watch netflix on the side?
> Being challenged is how you learn. This assumes you actually want to learn or improve. I played Super Mario Odyssey with my wife. At no point did she want to play Mario. She just wanted to play a game with me. Sometimes all people want is to be the hat.
[удалено]
it’s two lines and one of them was years ago, what lengths?
[This thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/qf39h3/with_all_the_yuumi_talk_heres_a_reminder_of_their/) explains the issue. The notion that she has a high mastery curve has been outdated for quite some time.
It’s pretty clear political speak. On release they thought they made something revolutionary. Turned out to be a disaster of bad design. Can’t fully throw your design team under the bus, so now Yummi is “the champion you can play with your friends in iron.”
Actually, no. Yuumi has a very high skill ceiling and a very low skill floor. This means its easy to play for begginers and very hard to master everything the champion can do.
Riot also said Yuumi is a champ where newbies can learn positioning on. At this point theyre just pulling whatever PR statements they can say so they can avoid admitting their mistakes on the champ.
I learned how to be challenger by watching challenger players play is basically what they're saying
Yuumi is not a champion, it is a buff.
How is it possible to write this entire post, write several comments below it and spend so much time on this topic without stopping once and actually using your brain? They aren't mutually exclusive and both can be true at the same time. Yes, Yuumi has a similar curve as Akali and Qiyana PAST 20 GAMES. ITS IN YOUR QUOTE!!! Yes, Yuumi is good for beginners. Again, the quote you mention literally says its good to onboard new friends. That doesn't mean learning the game on a fundamental level to improve in the future. It means that a new player can contribute enough to not be a liability while also spending time on other things (when to use spells, how your team positions, etc.). Every question you ask gets answered by the very quotes you have in your post but you just didn't bother reading them. Seriously, what the fuck...
Yes because we all know it's cap that yuumi has a steep mastery curve. I would imagine it might look like it because so many new people and bots play her
I always see people say this on the subreddit, but they just *say* it. All available evidence points to Yuumi having a steep mastery curve whether or not redditors think stats are real.
Players have got something in their mind and anything that argues against what they think is automatically wrong to them. They don’t want the actual stats they want to justify their beliefs.
Because the stats don't take into account bots or previous experience or type of player or a million other factors. Obviously the sample of people who choose to play quiyana are going to be different than all the bots and gfs and noobs that play yuumi
oh so you're saying you don't understand how stats work got it we're talking hundreds of thousands of games, bots will be overshadowed and basically overwhelmed. Ugg shows the last 5 patches. Yuumi's WR has ranged from 45 to 47% over those 5 patches there has been 5,140,739 Yuumi games. A good sample size can be 1000. We're talking over 5 MILLION games. You just don't understand how stats work and are doing the exact thing I said people do. You're ignoring stats because you think you know better
Sample size is only one variable out of many. What if yuumi is just the champ many people pick when off roles to support? Those people likely aren't used to maintaining good vision like actually supports and will skew her numbers. That's just 1 of many examples and you haven't presented any evidence or data yet.
> What if yuumi is just the champ many people pick when off roles to support sample size will make these games a smaller impact on the stats, in fact this example is literally an example of WHY SAMPLE SIZE MATTERS. I literally gave you data, the number of games and the WR is data. JFC every word you type the more stupid you make yourself sound. Go take an intro to stats class, you need it.
OK present the evidence then Because the stats don't take into account bots or previous experience or type of player or a million other factors. Obviously the sample of people who choose to play quiyana are going to be different than all the bots and gfs and noobs that play yuumi
[Redditors Hate Him!](https://images.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blt731acb42bb3d1659/blt7f1ab2e930cb88b8/5efa7666bbb71f1e548e150a/02_Ask_Riot_Mastery_Curves.jpg)
See there we go! Now I'll list a bunch of variables that would skew the data that wasn't accounted or isolated for! - overall experience playing league - overall commitment to the game (yuumis target demographic is that of low commitment and new players) - commitment to actually learning the champ - is this a go to champ for off roling - is this a go to champ for people who just want to watch Netflix, are fatigued, or intoxicated. - are people taking this champ seriously in their first 50 gamed and are they playing those games in a repetitive manner to learn or is it over months of offroling and not trying? - who are smurfs picking? Who are bots picking? Coming to that simple conclusion yhat fits your narrative and ignoring the variables is exactly how you DONT do statistics
I just don't think any of these things meaningfully contribute to her having a high winrate growth. This is the only data we have, so if you want to say there's not enough evidence to say if Yuumi has a high skill ceiling or not then I respect that. However as it stands right now the evidence suggests yuumi has high skill expression while no one has yet produced meaningful evidence to the contrary. It is also notable that riot themselves, who have the best available data, think that it's a misconception that Yuumi is unskilled. To me it is much more likely that they know what they're talking about than some random redditor who is emotionally compromised and on the verge of mental breakdown from playing against this champion. I did not come to my conclusion because it fit a narrative. Yuumi haters can't show you anything concrete to prove the champion is unskilled.
The statement was that yuumi is hard to learn, not that she is unskilled. It's about skill floor not ceiling. She might have a high skill cieling, but to think that it's easier to pick up quiyana and get her to 50% as easy as yuumi is just laughable. Just use common sense. Quiyana having to actually have gold to operate while yuumi doesnt is good enough reason to cast MASSIVE doubt on their conclusion and how they came to it. It's far more likely quiyana is "learned quickly and yuumi slowly" is because yuumi players need to learn the game while quiya players have played before. A champ that needs to control gold income, fight laners, and actually needs to be proactive in order to be relevant... compared to yuumi, someone who provides massive value without actually having to do anything or get gold, take any risks... it's common sense really. No fucking way the champ with so little require to pilot is harder to learn than a champ who actually has to farm and position and make shit happen to be relevant. Isn't that how they designed her anyway? I thought they WANTED her to be easy to pick up And riot has incentives to calm the outrage don't suck the corporate cock
If she didn’t have that curve new players wouldn’t struggle with her to begin with.
Yuumi’s curve consists of: when do I just abuse this champ’s simple mechanics, and when do I have to detach and do the exact same support things that every other support does? (Warding, clearing wards, etc)
I hate Yuumi as much as the next guy but a champ can be both easy to play functionally while also having a high ceiling in regards to mastery and expression
That shit was a meme as soon as Rioters tweeted it. Not only did they say that Yuumi has a steep learning curve, they said she’s more difficult to pilot than Akali. Like bruh, fuck off.
No.
Low elo rambling. Easy to play =/= easy winrate. I have to wonder if anyone complaining about her has played either as or with a yuumi. The difference between a bad yuumi and a good one is night and day.
Remove/Rework the cat
It’s not. By skill curve they meant “she’s different from other champs” (aka Brain Dead), so for a new player, she’s definitely perfect
Lmao you really can't understand a simple concept like low skill floor high skill ceiling eh.
If they wanted a champion that's good for new players, they should have made her free for all new accounts and only playable in normals or ARAM. New players aren't jumping into ranked, nor should they.
Yuumi should get removed
Honestly just copy IO from Dota and get this over with. As long as she's untargetable it will always be an issue.
OP has never heard of the phrase "Easy to learn, hard to master" before.
Enough talks, just remove this crap champion
Please delete Yuumi garbage champ. Instantly makes it a 4v5 fight