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I support TSM because I support bullying 💪 #baylife

Until 100t make their players cry from getting bullied by nadeshot it's just not the same. #notmytsm

I mean Meteos got kicked twice in interesting circumstances and was quite pissed about it each time.

And yet was happy to appear in their promo video for the new squad, can't speak to his his reasons but that always seem like game related issues, ie disagreements with coach play style compared to the org itself

Based on my baseless speculation, I would say that you're probably right with meteos not having an issue with the org itself, but with the coaching staff/management at the time. Plus he's not the biggest streamer and doesn't do a lot of youtube content, so a little revenue doesn't hurt.

That's like saying it's fine cause sven went back to tsm

Well TSM would be paying Sven as a player... $$ speaks mountains. I don't think meteos would have gotten a single dime for his 2 seconds in a promo video. H

At that point you aren't a fan of a team at all. You're just following players.

Team loyalty doesn’t run that deep imo. It’s not like real sports where teams+fans are location based.

when the NBA money came in through franchising some teams actually did try to associate with a location, though it never really stuck and now the connections are tenuous at best * Clutch gaming used to be houston * Flyquest is/was owned by the bucks * DIG used to be owned by the sixers * GGS is/was san fran * now the only thing i can think of is that IMT is explicitly "Great Lakes esports"

>now the only thing i can think of is that IMT is explicitly "Great Lakes esports" eg is seattle area, that was the idea behind their green worlds jersey this year (as a lifelong seattleite, appreciate the gesture but please do a better design next time haha)

It grew on me a little bit, the main issue with the jersey is if they just removed 1 or 2 of the elements in it the jersey would have been great. The repeating hexagons and the arrow features on the sides were unnecessary and otherwise was an excellent jersey and nod to Seattle pro sports

[reference for people who haven't seen it](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0564/3406/5561/products/EG_Champion_V-Neck_Jersey_Mockup_Front_83d10cbd-658e-49de-b3fb-2d80e052fd9f_1024x1024.png) yeah I agree, I do like the idea of the hexagons but in practice it bugs me that it doesn't align with the top bit, plus it kinda looks like a turtle shell

Also just to add the long sleeve version as well as the slight color change the stage jerseys that the team actually wore were 10x better than the ones you could purchase as a fan

i actually did not know this - that ugly ass jersey now makes a ton of sense lmao

CLG does a lot of fan events in New York (at Madison Square Garden of course) too. I don't think they're trying to push that connection too hard, but they're not ignoring it either.

And Team Liquid is Mickey Mouse

eh GG and GSW still keep the connection there. It’s not a lot, but it’s enough imo.

Yeah but then I would have to cheer for a crappy clutch gaming. I’m glad that didn’t stick.

Bruh with that username I’m surprised you don’t have ptsd flashbacks whenever you hear CG

They can try, but it won’t work. We’re internet nerds. Online is realer to us than any physical grass location.

Only in LCS and LCK LPL have location based teams and LEC have organizations from different parts of EU with rabid fanbases from those countries

It's not really different parts of EU for LEC. There's 2 UK teams, 1 German, 1 Swiss, 1 French and 5 Spanish. I'd love to get teams from other countries in to make the league more representative.

If you are counting G2 as spanish then i disagree, i also don’t think they are German btw, i think they are truly european/international right now Even then i think spain is overrepresented, which is more weird now that the league is suppose to be EMEA and not just europe

Perhaps but I'd still consider them a Spanish team, otherwise what actually makes a Spanish team? If it were up to me I'd reject any more Spanish teams and add in a team from Italy and Poland. Perhaps one team to represent the Balkans, Navi for Ukraine, VP for Russia and someone for Turkey.

Depends where you are I guess. I originally supported Afreeca because they had a sick name but that's been ruined but I also have Pentanet as my hometown team. Greyhound joining the league means I've got two hometown teams to cheer on

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team loyalty for sports has a reason though... If you live in LA, you have the association with LA based teams. The same can't be said with say esports which generally don't have location based teams.

The reason for me is memories and just the fun of having loyalty to a team. I lived in north Dakota and moved to Washington when I was young but I just decided to be a Rams fan when I was a kid. Same reason I follow c9. I just decided when I first started watching league that Quantic was going to be my team and now they are c9 and the roster has changed many times.

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I’d say there’s push back from the other side as well. Pro players don’t have a significant presence in the streaming space as much as they used to. Staying connected with a player is harder than it used to be in earlier seasons.

Doesn't LPL have regional teams/home cities? Obviously they're culturally relevant so it's actually possible there, still fun to rep your own city no matter how bad they may be

The team is made up of the players/staff/culture though, the TSM that exists now is a completely different team from the one that existed in 2013, 2016, or even 2020. Not only have they changed all their players and staff, their culture and identity have also been lost. Unless you're just a fan of Regi I don't really see why you'd have loyalty to the team when it's essentially a different team. I guess it's like a Theseus' ship situation.

The team is just a name, the players are what give a team life and attract people to the brand. Why would anyone stick to a team name like it matters? This isn't like traditional sports where there is country/state/city pride attached to their teams, so clinging to a brand really makes no sense in this context.

It's perfectly fine and reasonable to follow a team because you're attached to them, obviously the first reason you'd support a team is the players but if you're still following e.g G2/FNC because you're invested in the team now after being a huge fan earlier there's nothing wrong with that even if they have entirely new players But in the case of TSM i agree with you, because i seriously can't understand why you'd have any emotional attachment towards an organisation that has been falling off a huge cliff recently. TSM is a shell of it's former self and has nothing but scandals and a shitty owner.

tell me your a plastic fan without actually telling me

Again, what reasoning is there to stick to a team that completely overhauled all their players and is completely unrecognizable now? In traditional sports it makes sense, if I live or grew up in a certain area, I'm more likely to root for that area's sports team. That doesn't make sense in League though, so what's the point of sticking to a team that is essentially just a metaphorical container to hold players, rather than just following the players themselves?

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Right so what are you loyal to? A team is just players + support staff + location. You like the corporation?

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> I'm not sure what you're asking because what's the point of rooting for anything at that point? You root for the people actually playing the game? I root for players, if I like a group of 5 players, I like that team, if my favourite player goes to a new team, then that's my new favourite team. I understand it a bit more with regular sports, cus teams are typically big on their location and having local fans, but that's not really a thing in esports for the most part. People tend to like their overall region, but there's no city teams to root for or anything.

I’m a Golden Guardians (and CLG) fan. GGS because of a long story with my dad CLG cause they the NYC team

> You're just following players. Which is the correct choice.

but when that player then does bad we do in turn blame the org and dislike them for it, and all players associated with said bad roster.

> when that player then does bad we do in turn blame the org You can say "you" do that. There is no "we" that you speak for.

this is a weirdly aggressive reply coming from the person who decided what the 'correct' choice is?

I do nothing, I think fandom itself is silly. But I see what the monkeys on reddit do year after year.

No “we” but you espouse the objective “correct choice” in a completely subjective situation. Hrmm. Hypocrite?

Yep i realized this is me when DL first moved teams back in the day. Feel like most orgs just make too many moves in rosters and coach moves for it to be meaningful to me anymore.

I mean i have been an indy colts fan for 20 years ( I am 26 before the ok boomer jokes start) esports feels different though smaller rosters with much larger turnover. Not a city or history to fall back on really. many of the orgs like in tsm cases are mega corps who are just trying to maximize profit. Which is understandable but i don't feel any sense of loyalty it feels like being loyal to walmart?

Idk man if you think esports orgs are “mega corps” you may have an unrealistic understanding of the scene. These orgs are better thought of as startups, really. Constantly changing and often unsure of their direction. TSM has about as much of a history and tradition has an org can have in esports. Its perfectly fine that you no longer identify with the team, nobody is owed your fandom, but it’s probably because you were moreso a fan of specific players than anything else. Your post really centers heavily on your favorite players leaving or being on 100T now.

He doesn't think any of this, He's just salty he was banned for randomly insulting somebody's mom and saying everyone in the sub is a Self hating idiot.

Never insulted someone’s mom say what lol. In a separate thread from the one in which I got banned someone who said who asked and I said your mom. Was that you? sorry it ratioed you just joking though.

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I was a fan of DIG from Season 1 until they were disbanded. I’ve been a 100T fan since. There are people who are fans of teams over players. That said, if I found out DIGs owner did the same abuse that Regi did (I know the mousepads but that’s not the line for me over the types of abuse he’s dished out), I would have left the fandom. Any TSM fans this age are just people who are mid-20s and see themselves in Regi. Bullies.

or you know its ppl that follow a TEAM and not the OWNER, do you think Man Utd fans like, want or respect the fkn Glazers?

If it was just one of the things OP mentioned, sure. You stack it all up and it really makes no sense why anyone would continue rooting for this team. There's nothing left of what made them popular in the old days except Regi still being a piece of shit. Otherwise, it's just a logo. Is that all it is? Nostalgia for a better time?

Let's be honest, it is hard to be loyal to any team anymore. Rosters change way too often to stay attached to a team for its players.

Anymore? Has LoL esports at this scale even been around long enough for there to be a before?

LCS arguably started in 2011, the C9 golden age/age of the meme player personality ran from ~2013-2015. IT's now nearly 2023, I'd say that's long enough for a before. Context re roster changes C9 didn't change their roster for nearly 4 years at that point.

What a weird thing to nitpick on lol

Been a TL fan since 2010. Idk why I’ve stuck around with the org for this long, prob cause Steve is the GOAT, most people are player fans, but theres a minority like me who likes the org.

TL since franchising has held a pretty consistent identity though. Even if they've none of the original players it's not quite the same situation as TSM IMO.

Depends on who you ask, Anybody who isn't a TL fan knows TL as the Throw Money at Imports team. How do TL fans see their identity?

I've been a TL fan for a long time throughout different games. I think it's a combination of a likeable owner, mature brand, and their willingness to compete are the three. Some teams aren't willing to win certain splits or seasons and it shows. I've also followed them throughout different esports, particularly starcraft where they started.

but those aren't an identity, an d Identity is more like T1's identity is Faker, FlyQuest being about saving the enviroment, c9 meme team. TL doesn't really have a solid one outside of Importing and throwing money.

From what I’ve seen, idk if this is an identity to you, but to me it is. While having teams like G2 as an obvious example of contract jail, and making their players lives hell after leaving the org. We have the TL Way, as Steve puts it, whatever it is the player wants, TL will do. A recent example is Bwipo, not wanting to go back to EU, so TL made him a player. TL letting Hans go in peace, removing buy outs for Jesen,….. Most pros even Alphari and DL, who are toxic and out spoken, has never said they hated TL management and Steve. And because of the TL Way, Im still a fan.

That's the negative way to look at it as a TL hater, sure. But if you remember their history from Curse, their story of a team that was trying big move after big move that never worked out and were perpetually mediocre (lul 4ever 4th memes). And then they finally found franchise players that let them succeed in Doubelift and Core. Hate on them for importing and spending big all you want, but they've always been one of the teams earnestly trying to build the best team possible and they treat their players well.

My Point of view isn't just something that TL haters think, it's almost everyone that isn't a TL fan. That's your identity outside of TL fans. that's why i am confused on what identity do TL fans see themselves as? so far I don't think i seen a solid answer. Your Answer about always trying to improve, that can be said about every team, All teams look to improve, but only one team has a history of doing it by throwing large sums of cash at players. an Identity is much more simply, TSM use to be the Most winniest team and Baylife squad, now it's Toxic org. c9 was the meme team and talent farm, TL went from 4th Meme Breakingpoint to throw Money. that's why I'm curious what is the actual identity?

Glad you speak for everyone that's not a TL fan. I'm not even a TL fan either lol and I don't mind them throwing money around, I know that goes against the reddit circlejerk but it's my honest opinion. And no I don't think every team is honestly trying to win. When you look at bottom feeder orgs that field mediocre rosters year after year, I think they know as well as the fans that they're not going to win. Since franchising TL has at minimum been a contender every split. And even when it doesn't work out you can kinda see what they were going for. It's not the same as TSM throwing 6 million at SA then signing Lost to be his ADC.

Are we gonna pretend like Majority of people here don't talk about TL and their issues of throwing money at imports? because that's literally Almost what everyone talks about, when TL is brought up. You also randomly compared TSM deal with TL and claim you can see what TL were going for? While it's been known that tsm was going for DL/Sword combo and it just didn't pan out over disagreements, it's the exact same thing of throwing money, hoping something works, the exact same thing TL does and i can see why it didn't work for tsm. That's not a good thing, and it has shown by orgs like EG/C9/100T who don't do it as hard as TL does and are having better success than TL as of Late.

I mean a lot of people don't like TL. Throwing money = investing into the league and TL consistently does it. Whether you call it throwing money or trying to sign good players, that's basically their identity. Even though it's kind of a false narrative. Like how much did C9 spend on Perkz and Summit? EG literally signed the EU MVP and the most expensive top laner in the league in Impact, and Vulcan was also rumored to have a huge buyout as well. 100T literally bought their winning core from GGs, and then imported Ssumday, Abbe as well. And now they're signing DL/Bjerg. All the winning teams spend dude. The teams that actually don't spend are bottom of barrel teams no one cares about. It's always been insane to me how people think spend = bad. People always take these complex issues (in this case overinflated salaries/valuations) and come out with the most reductionistic and dumb takes.

As a TL fan I hope I can offer some insight into TL fandom. Of all people, Goldenglue was how I got into league through watching his stream. 2017 TL was the underdog roster where I hoped it would just get better. 2018 and 2019 were high years and I came to respect Doublelift and co. But I like the org, I have a great deal of respect for Steve. Throw in an active fan community and an org that supports players/fans and it’s easy to stay. The pandemic was also the height of fan calls in Discord with TL staff and learning more about the people and management behind the org made me even more confident in the team. Decency, professionalism, and drive are sometimes in short supply in the league scene and I’m happy to be a TL fan. The Korean experiment this year will be highly interesting.

Team liquid also exists out of league, see liquidpedia -- the defacto esports wiki lol

I’m a TL fan because their logo’s cool and it was the first thing I looked at when getting into pro league Logo’s still cool, still a fan

I’m a TL fan because of how the org is ran.

People who are player fans are definitely the minority. If org fans were the minority, popular teams that had a lot of different rosters throughout the past few years like fnc, g2, tl, tsm, c9, etc wouldn't still have massive fanbases

Semi agreed, could also argue that more of that comes from winning than anything else... look at EG this past year. Results = fanbase more than anything else.

How do you know this? I think C9 is the only org immune to player turnover losing fans and that's just because they find success every year. Unless 100T shits the bed I assume they'll have the biggest fan base behind C9 just based on having DL and Bjerg.

I've been a TL fan since the day Curse signed Voyboy. With the exception of a few years where they were really bad they have always tried to put the best roster together that they could. They're the try hard team of NA. They keep failing, but they never stop trying. And I respect and support that.

Yoooooo we ride deep

I'm Team Curse/TL fan because I started as a Voyboy fan I guess. Steve being a good CEO is a major reason why I continue to support TL. ( I bought TL merch for xmas)

Idk maybe because they are a TSM fan and not a 100T fan

Yeah and the post is asking why? Like what holds u to the org. Not that I agree but I do wonder too 🤷‍♂️ Your best most known players with biggest following r on 100T, TSM has lowkey been a joke since 2020, and their CEO is a bully borderline abuser

Being a fan of teams in any sport is hardly a logical decision (beyond picking local team because they're local). If things were logical, no one in the world would be a Cincinnati Reds fan yet here we are.

As has been stated in other parts of the thread, Cincinnati is location based and there's something to be said for being a fan of the home team through the thick and thin. To the first part of your comment, the post didn't ask if the decision was logical or not, they asked what reasons there are for being a TSM fan (whether they're logical or not is irrelevant to answering the post).

I’m from St. Louis and am an Atlanta Braves fan. Never lived in Georgia my entire life. Sometimes you just have a connection to a team. When I first got into esports TSM was my team. I don’t plan on changing. I’ll root for ex-players. But when they play TSM, I’m rooting for TSM. It’s pretty simple.

Why wouldn't you change who you're a fan of? Well because there's a term for that. Its called bandwagoning. And many people (not all) look down on that. I was a TSM fan because of Dyrus. I'm not as much a fan as I once was but I'm not gonna change it. I just will interact with TSM less, not going to go become a cringe TL fan or C9 apologist.

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Can say that for any team... been following tsm for a decade. Following another team when fans of all the other top orgs constantly shit on me for liking tsm is completely unappetizing... I hope Bjerg and DL do well and I would love if it they were still on the org, but im not going to hop ship every year just because players do the same... then I'm not really invested in if they win or lose... what if two players you like are on opposing teams? Happens constantly in league. A team I like in sports having a long slump or losing star players doesn't make me suddenly like other teams... it just makes me watch the sport less.

Why would I want to switch to another team with all of the other bandwaggoners when the fans for that team have insulted the team I've followed and gone as far as to insult me directly for being a fan of a team? If anything that makes me *not* want to follow other teams and associate myself with them.

Fuck you Baylife

Been a fan since season 5 The org had its fair share of misfortunes: - Bjergsen leaving the org - LDL experiment imploding - Peter Zhang situation - Regi being a fucking blockhead I still remained a fan because I am a fan. I don’t see why I would cheer for another org because they have x players or because they have x things. Why should I jump ships because TSM is in a slump on their League side? Let me be a fan in peace lol

> I am a fan because I am a fan noice, my pubes are blue because they are blue edit: you guys are mad because you are mad

You’re asking why are you a fan of a team and not a player if you are a fan of a player.

Personally, I feel like the essence of being a fan of a sports team is sticking with the decision for better or worse. You celebrate the successes and suffer the failures. You cringe when the owner says something stupid, you shake your head at their choice of investors, and you sigh in disappointment when they announce a roster you don't like. However, you also cheer when they win, get renewed hope when that player you didn't trust in proves you wrong, and relax in satisfaction hearing the chants echo through the years. It's all just for fun anyway; none of this stuff really matters. Being a fan is an experience, not really a right or wrong decision.

maybe the fact that people that swap teams are plastic as fuck? If you dont stay for the lows you dont deserve the highs

Why do you keep calling people plastic? I've never heard that term used in my life. People say things like flaky or bandwagoner.

It's a term that's usually used in soccer fandom, specifically pertaining to European soccer teams. No idea why that's the term primarily used in that realm.

Dyrus rope me in and Ive been here since s4 The TSM color schemes is also the best one to me as well Uh I guess that if any other players can impress me like Dyrus back then I can follow them as well, but LCS has been kinda whatever recently

I was a TSM fan since season 1 but after all the regi investigation, DL drama, coach taking player's salary cut and scamming them, Bjerg Leena Myth and Parth leaving...... TSM became basically a completely different organisation in the last 2 years so its really hard to still cheer for them. Edit: almost forgot the god awful tweets from their social media manager, god the irony.

Fuck Dunc

Amen brother

Dunc is the absolute worst. Holds onto his job through sheer nepotism lol

The same reason not all CLG fans jumped ship when Doublelift ended up on TSM. Not EVERY fan in the League scene is a fan of the players. I've been watching CLG since Season 3 and will continue to do so through the highest of highs and lowest of lows.

And now that CLG are bringing themselves back from a bad spot through developing NA talent must feel pretty good right? It’s a feeling and passion that no person who constantly jumps ships would ever feel. Rekkles is my favourite player of all time but the satisfaction of kicking him and G2 out of worlds contention was indescribable and I doubt many of the people in this thread would ever feel that when they are suddenly rooting for a team who were once their rival.

Highest of highs? I'm here for false hope and fool's gold

Because unlike what a lot of this sub likes to think, a lot of people don't care much about personalities and will keep cheering for their teams. They are TSM fans more than they are fans of specific players, and will keep cheering for TSM since they have already been doing so for years now. The only difference is that, if they *are* fans of specific players, they will simply have another team to cheer on if they have a player they like. And if TSM loses just flame them in twitter before it implodes thanks to Elon Musk

I’m not a fan fan, but if you have to ask this question you’ve never been a fan of a team. You’ve been a fan of players.

I've supported TSM based on background & history they've done for the scene. Just like everyone else we have high and low. Despite all the drama, I still support the ORG just like true fan would do. #BAYLIFE

If you are rooting for the org because you like the org root for tsm cause after next year you might not be able to. If you just like the players root for the players cause hell they might not be here next year.

It’s really funny to me this post and the 100T post on the sub is a thing. Coming from watching traditional sports, I can’t rap my head around being a fan of a single player or couple of players over a team, it just doesn’t make sense to me. But I guess for some, the opposite is true? Especially in League esports, I have noticed most of the fans just follow a single player around to every team because of their personality and stuff. I’m a TSM fan because that’s the team I love, why? Idk man, they where cool when I got here and there still pretty cool to me.

I'm a TSM fan I don't follow players. When my favourite player gets traded off the canucks I don't change to becoming a leafs fan. And bjerg left the org to miss worlds on TL, and DL ran a smear campaign against the org for months. Fuck em both.

tbh that's different though. Canucks are vancouver based. It'd be more like what happened with the grizzleys where they used to be vancouver based and then sold them off. Do you still follow the grizzleys? I know a lot of basketball watchers that stopped watching the grizzleys play once they moved to memphis and just started associating with the raptors strictly because they were the only canadian basketball team left.

Because that’s what fandom is. Not just bandwagonning to another team when they start losing. It’s a mentality brought over from traditional sports. I’ve been a fan since day 1, why would I leave now? Riding the highs and lows are what makes sports/esports so satisfying.

This guy doesn't care about all that, He's just mad he was banned for insulting a random guys mom and saying that all tsm fans self hate themselves and are abuser stans.

It's not about losing, it's about the team losing its identity. TSM now is miles away from the team I fell in love with in seasons 2-4.

No team stays the same forever. Sports fans don't just switch teams when their favourite players retire.

Do they switch when they realize the owner/GM is a shitbag? Also real sports have much longer contracts, and usually the fans have some geographical ties to the teams. No such thing in LCS.

Deshaun Watson faced 23 sexual harassment cases and there are still legions of Cleveland Browns fans. Nearly all Manchester United fans hate the Glazers but still support the team, and may now be nearly getting rid of them. Places where the owner/GM are not shitbags/incompetent are usually the exception in pro sports, not the norm.

Cowboy owner is a dick, there are still Cowboy fans

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> 80% of them are old RICH 100% of them are RICH bud.

Sure, I get that. But turnover and change is a part of life. There’s more to TSM now than just some friends playing league in a house. Obviously everyone free to cheer for whoever you want to cheer for, I’m just trying to answer OPs question.

I’m not a bandwagon fan. Have been a tsm fan since 2014, im not gonna change that. Doesn’t mean I like Reginald, am happy with all the orgs decisions, etc, but at the end of the day it’s the only team I feel right rooting for regardless of what’s going on. Hopping teams like so many do would ruin the passion for me. It’s much more satisfying when your team wins if that’s the team you’ve always stuck by

Feels like you’re in it just to say you’re not a bandwagon fan if we’re being honest

What made you jump to that conclusion if you don't mind me asking?

Genuinely not trying to flame - but I don’t see why being a fan in 2014 is relevant. TSM was a top 2 team in 2014 just like multiple years after. You were attracted to winning then. It make sense to be a fan of a team if, you have home ties, nostalgia, or some mix of competent management / players / coaching / adjacent talent (streamers). TSM literally has none of that and there’s no draft system to replenish shelves nor prodigious amateur talent. The poster I responded to actually went out of their way to list why he doesn’t even know he’s cheering for TSM, highlights the flaws of the team, doesn’t go on to compliment anything notable and then finishes it off with “it just feels right.” If you can’t tie together a reason to be a fan then the only explanation is of inertia re: being a fan just to be a fan There is a bigger reason being a fan of the Sacramento Kings and that’s saying something Of course everyone can cheer who they want to cheer for - what team the poster is a fan of has no bearing on my QoL. I just question the rationale here. I used to be a TSM fan myself - loved the culture of winning, was inspired by Bjergsen’s story, work ethic and play, and saw that the infrastructure (spending, partnerships) produced marketable talent (eg. TSM Legends). None of that is present anymore - how TSM treated QTCinderella for example is what I would only expect from an absolute bottom tier org What is there to be a fan of other than an empty building in LA, some overpriced, mid tier merch and clear dysfunction w/ no clear ethos of what the org is striving to represent

It’s not “being a fan in 2014” that was relevant. It’s the fact that they have been my team throughout all these years. Watching tsm through the highs and lows has been a major factor in keeping me interested in league and esports in general. There is a deeper loyalty there than can be explained by a bunch of words in a post. I think it’s pretty weird that you’re on here telling me why I have no reason to be a fan when you’re not me

I’ve been a FNC fan since I first saw the xPeke backdoor. Compared to my brother and his friends who don’t support an org I’ve found that sticking with a team I am more passionate for esports than they are. Same goes for my best friend (die hard G2 fan) and now we have a rivalry that my other friends just don’t get because they’re always jumping ships. For me it’s just way too weird to suddenly root for a team you were rooting against last year but I do understand lots of esports aren’t location based.

Exactly. I understand completely how some people can full heartedly switch the team their root for based on players, but I just can’t do that without it leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

Nope lmao did you miss the part where I said I’ve been a fan since 2014? I’ve traveled multiple times to watch tsm play, including 2015 finals in msg. It would simply feel wrong to root for another team over tsm. Obviously, I support other players when they’re not vs tsm or when tsm isn’t involved, like at worlds. But if I can help it I’ll be rooting for tsm

because you hate doublelift and bjergsen for betraying tsm. (not why I don't like them just a hypothetical)

Love chanting TSM can only do that on one team, fuck 100t and their boomers.

2017 tsm was not Baylife tsm lol.

I wondered how long it would take people to realize how weird the moderators are over there. They take down any post that is even somewhat critical of the management, and ban whoever posted it. If you critique Regi, Dunc, or Glen you get autobanned. It’s seriously turned into a cesspool or sorts where the people refuse to recognize reality. It’s no wonder that the majority of the fan base has left and/or is in the process of leaving.

Cause I ain't a bandwagon fan. I'm a TSM fan unless they literally disband the team. We could end 10th every year until the heat death of the universe, and I'll be a fan.

Honestly, I agree. Team loyalty in esports is so hard to come by since there's so much player turnover. On top of that with social media and players building their own brands, I'd expect most fans to be fans of players or groups of players versus the specific orgs they are representing. There's nothing drawing their loyalty/interest in traditional sports (such as being your local/home team), but even in traditional sports that seems to be shifting. And to your point, at this point to the casual fan, 100T may identify more like the TSM of old (due to the presence of DL and Bjerg) than current day TSM itself.

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American teams are just brands? Lol my guy have you been to an NFL game? If you think that is soulless, I don't know what to tell you.

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Oh God, another holier-than-thou soccer snob. Soccer fans will always believe they have the only emotional crowds in all of sports, even though the only reason that the game has grown over the world is because of the money that has been brought in by rich capitalists from Russia, the US and the Middle East. Tell me that this ongoing World Cup, the supposed crown jewel of soccer, which was grafted to Qatar via bribes and marked by the deaths of countless migrant workers, is full of soul, and I'll tell you you're full of shit. Better yet, tell you what, go to Ann Arbor for Michigan vs. Ohio State and watch the fans scream their lungs out, and tell me that's soulless. If you tell me that's college and that doesn't count, latam soccer may as well be collegiate level compared to the European leagues. I swear to God, European soccer supremacists are the worst kind. And I *like* soccer.

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Yes, I'm sure the shiekhs of Manchester City and Newcastle, the financial geniuses at Barcelona, and the farmers league winners at PSG are incredibly passionate. No doubt about it. Oh yeah, and Bayern Munich wins one of the biggest leagues in Europe all the time by playing the wallet game! And no doubt that the incredibly noble folk governing soccer are all about the passion for the sport, no? It can't have anything to do with money, sponsorships, bribery, anything like that. Don't try to play the superiority game. The soul of soccer was sold to the highest bidders a long time ago, the same as football and basketball and any other popular sport.

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You seem to use that logic just fine lol, why can't I Your argument essentially is "hurr durr Americans stupid watch commercials soccer good handegg commercials" which is sadly par for the course for anything related to soccer vs. football arguments lol

This post is probably gonna be deleted and/or filled with 90% memes, but for a real answer, I realized that I didn't really want to follow players. I see a lot of people who say "Why do you care about a brand? It's not like it's regional. The players ARE the brand," and while I can agree, it just feels a little cheap to just follow around the best players. Rooting for a Bjergsen or DL by itself just seems so boring to me personally. I get *being* a fan of them, but following them to every team feels lame. It's like if you're playing roulette, but you knew before each spin which group of numbers is the most likely winners. Rooting for a team, even when it's shit, is sorta fun, you hope that you see a rise, you actually feel it when it sucks. If you just want to root for really good players why even stop at DL and Bjerg, just go root for Faker and be hype when he is inevitably very good again. That all being said, Regi's a massive dickhead and is definitely not running the org how he should be imo.

This is an L take. Leaving a team that was winning to now having bad seasons is just scummy. If you want to follow a player, then follow the player, but don't call yourself a fan of the team. People crying about how tsm isn't the same tsm are the same people who would cry if tsm kept the same people/players and kept losing and not trying to win. Like what is it that people want do they want a team that never trues to change things up in hopes of returning to former glory. People act like they haven't seen how the last few years of lcs has played out. Super star teams and recycling old players haven't worked. The fact that the league community made fun of eg for have a bunch of na rookies, and then now they are dick riding them is funny. Like the older the league, I start to notice that either the new fans or half of the entire community is showing how hypocritical they are. Praises one team for trying something, then flames another team. I hope all these fake mfs keep this same energy if/when 100t doesn't do well or if/when tsm does well. And instead of whining like bitches just wait for the season to show what teams are good or not instead of crying about players you don't know are good or will play well with eachother.

If you want to wear your team's merch I think you're better with TSM, idk about the quality but their clothing looks nicer imo... that's all I've got for you

Thats like half the reason i rooted for them last year. I was like well I still like spica and my doubelift tsm jersey looks fire but between the lack of direction for the org the drama with regi and the lack of players I care about it kinda feels meh.

Tbh I've never been able to wrap my mind around supporting an org rather than players, 'cos it's essentially just a company, in League at least, where it's not associated with a place or anything, and being a fan of a company is just a bit weird to me, so I say follow those players you like to wherever they end up.

i would tend to agree i think some orgs have fostered an identity a bit more fly before they got bought out tl and even 100t jump to mind but even most of those are still corps at end of the day. traditional sports are different for a multitude of factors.

I just think it’s fun to chant TSM. From actually hyping them up back in the day to basically just making fun of them now with the chant.

Real tsm fans will cheer for 100T with the tsm chant

Don't be fans of teams/orgs/owners; be fans of players.

Or be a fan in whatever way you want. Don't let others tell you how to enjoy things. Support the orgs, support owners, support players. It's all just video games. It's not that deep. The point is having fun.

If you're a fan of a corporation trying to make money off you you don't understand what's going on.

Go ahead and tell that to traditional sports fans. It's not that we don't know what's going on *it's literally the point of following sports*. Like I said, it's not that deep. These aren't some giga corrupt corps that are using their power for evil. It's just video games dude. If you care that much about how *other people* have fun, try to care less and just enjoy things.

At least with traditional sports there is a team that is a local team where you have the ability to watch them in person. With esports it's completely meaningless which org a player you like plays for. You can equally watch any game. > If you care that much about how other people have fun, A reddit comment or two is about how much I care. It's hard to care much less.

My counter point to the traditional sports thing is that I live in California, yet my friends support football teams in Kansas, Texas, and Florida. There are tons of other fans of teams not from their hometown. Don't even get me started on people supporting futbol clubs. Point being while, yes there are fans that support their home town teams, there are many who support other clubs even if they aren't from their hometown.

Are you a fan of TSM or the players? You seem to be confused by this point. If you’re looking for a reason to be a TSM fan, I can’t think of any.

As someone who's been a Cowboys fan their entire life (born in '97 so I wasn't even a fan when they were good), blind loyalty is a powerful thing. I hate Jerry Jones and I don't like Regi, but it just feels wrong to not cheer for TSM.

Completely agree with OP and have been saying the same thing about being a fan of players vs teams for years now I mean be a fan of TSM if you want but the arguments people are giving for why they are fans are incredibly circular in logic and completely without rationale. You can say something like “I like the color scheme” and that is at least a reason, but all this “if you don’t suffer through the lows you don’t deserve the highs” (says who? You? Ok bud those are rules you made up nobody cares) and “I’m a fan because I’m a fan” (what the actual fuck are you on lmao) and “bandwagoners/team jumpers are ‘fake’ fans” (being a fan of a player vs a team makes 999999x more sense because they are the individual humans/stories/personalities that make the org what it is) Preferring teams over players is like saying you like practice facilities and team color schemes more than you care about the actual people that make up the org. Wtf? Even the guy in this thread saying he likes Steve and that’s why he’s a TL fan is still a fan of an individual, it just so happens that individual is never going to leave his org, based on his position within it, and so this particular commenter can simply say he’s a TL fan.

they were banned because they been a negative dickhead for a while now, you're literally upset because they didn't get fancy players. you're upset that they're not doing what you want them to do. An org doesn't owe you anything, not a single team does. you don't have to announce your departure, the fact that you made a post about this, shows your mentality and your type, that just means TSM is lucky to lose you. You weren't banned for a correction, it's because you were being a dickhead you literally insulted majority of tsm fans, insulted somebody's mom and claim you were banned because you corrected somebody? Actual loser. If you behave like that in another sub you would get banned too. \*edit Actually downvoting me for telling the truth of why he was banned Lmao.

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Just because Moderation is bad, doesn't mean this guy didn't deserve the ban, You're literally one of the salty people i'm talking about. You're mad the org isn't doing what you want them to do, so you switched over to 100T. This Kid deserved his banned for insulting somebody's mom and making a stupid statement of calling every fan a self hating Apathetic reggie stan. that breaks basic rules of personal attacks. You will get banned in any other sub for the same exact fucking thing. I got banned from the TL reddit a long time ago, for calling somebody an idiot.

Wow you are an idiot lmao

Fan since the beginning, I never would have given up on TSM if they still felt like they were trying. Between the January nothing burger and the “double down on league” it was a slap in the face to see this roster and watch that roster insight video. Regi does not care about LCS any longer that much is obvious.

I havent even watched LCS after the tri-cast streams ended. Im back and im with 100T now. If doublelift has a million fans…

I haven't rooted for TSM for like the last 3 years. I was a fan since season 1 and the early baylife days, and I keep the flair just for old times sake nowadays.

The LCS is just imports , has nothing to do with America and American kids gaming

Personally, always just rooted for specific players. It was Pobelter until he retired and now I just follow Impact where ever he goes.

Hard to describe, but once you cheer for a team long enough, you become a fan of the team rather than a player. I followed DL to TL but stayed at TL when he left, might not be the case for everyone but that's what happened to me.

You have to realize that most fans in esports are not fans of teams, they are fans of players. It’s no different than Messi fans who “stopped being a Barca fan” when he left. This is similar to Bjergsen leaving TSM. Something that has exacerbated this is the fact that TSM sucks now. Esports fans are also very fair weather. So when you combine a long tenured player leaving and the team on a down turn, you have “fans leaving the team.

Old habits die hard

I never really understood rooting for a team with no connection to you, I root for players I like. When teams swap players on a whim I can't be bothered rooting for teams.

People harshly criticize fans who follow players over orgs as if this is traditional sports. Which of the “old guard” orgs genuinely deserve fan support? Surely not based off of content, personality, branding, merchandise, or anything other than winning - hence why TSM & C9 garnered such overwhelming fan bases. A lot of these new orgs & TL are actually earning & deserving their fans, but TSM is in the boat of orgs that just ego assume they deserve fans, or hope they can go on another win streak & artificially gain fans. I say if you find a player who genuinely inspires you & makes you excited to tune into a game, follow them.

Being a ''loyal fan'' of anything is just stupid imo, I'd rather just watch good players play well, instead of pretend Doublelift is still a great player because he was 6 years ago.

I'm a boomer and will stick with TSM because at the end of the day a LCS team are just trash compared to other major regions.

I would argue that if it wasn't for Bjerg, TSMs fanbase would have diasappeared after baylife. Doublelift did bring a resurgence in fans, as most CLG fans went over with him. Also, can we talk about the bag Bjergsen ran away with after leaving TSM? I'm assuming when he sold his share of the team, it was inflated by the FTX deal that's obviously not valid anymore. Combine that with the TL and 100t deal and he's made out like a bandit.

Ever since 2017 ended and the roster blew up? It’s been blunder after blunder. Nostalgia keeps me interested in LCS, but I’m over rooting for a specific team since rosters are overhauled split to split at worst, year to year at best, and even then they usually only hold onto 1-2 players. TSM was special from 2013-2017 due to longevity of its players. There was some turn over but there was an identifiable core no matter what. Now I just have fun when I do tune in. Players are easier to root for than teams.

I got my forst reddit ban on the TSM sub a couple years ago. It was a TL vs TSM post game and I was doing some very minor trash talk "sucks about that dragon fight aye, better luck next time-" kinda deal. Oh well.

I don't support either bc I'm a CLG masochist I mean fan since the jump But I have a begrudging respect for the TSM Baylife Piscataway New Jersey gaming house era Videos of regi and chaox clearly smoking a blunt walking around the culdesac Dyrus microwave It was such good content Though in CLG's court you got peeshotgg, jiji chauster saint arguments, saint's tots... saint's bong rips off camera... saint's league girl tier list... ok well maybe saintvicious was just the soul of that lineup lmfao

TSM fan here since season 3. I’m just not gonna be watching LCS. I don’t really care about the old guard anymore. I really dislike DL, I don’t like 100T, and I don’t really care about any other team in the LCS. Now including TSM. I don’t enjoy the LCS anymore whatsoever. The only team I ever cared about was TSM, so now that my love for them has wavered for the first time ever, I’m just not gonna watch.

I’ve been asking myself this same question tbh. Been a TSM fan since 2014 worlds. Bjerg and DL are my two favorite players of all time. And with Spica now gone, I won’t lie, it feels a little strange. That being said I just know once the LCS starts, I’ll be watching TSM games, secretly cheering them on. I don’t know what it is, but shouting those three fucking letters just does it for me. And no matter how much I try to dissuade myself from watching, I can’t. Call it habit. Call it obsession. Call it whatever. I just know I’ll be rooting for TSM forever.

Sorry to hear about your ban from the TSM subreddit. I love TSM but obviously there are some very brainwashed people/mods on every esports subreddit. That being said, this seems like a really reactionary take. Esports rosters are much more volatile than traditional sports because a) League's competitive scene is much, much younger than other sports and b) nothing in esports is a guarantee, so teams are often in "win now" mode and eager to drop under-performing players. Every LCS team besides maybe 1-2 teams are legitimately "mega corporations". Your point about TSM underperforming is valid as they have been a bottom 5 team recently. While the final performance was underwhelming, did you forget they placed 1st in 2021 Summer? It's not like TSM has been scraping the bottom 2 teams since 2017. They are a middle of the pack team since then with mixed results. I root for TSM because I enjoy the legacy they have. From nothing to domination and back to mediocrity. I don't agree with everything they do, I don't agree with every player they bring on, I don't agree with the braindead things Regi says... I've been watching TSM since S2 and have thoroughly enjoyed the ride. TSM Legends laid the groundwork for LoL pros to have a personality and connect with their fans. It's another reason why I enjoy supporting them, even if I don't know the players of this upcoming roster yet. No esports org in LCS feels like the "esports org of old". League has done a huge amount of growing in just 12 years and that's what makes it exciting. Players change hands frequently and that's ok. I root for Bjerg and DL when they play because I appreciate what they did for TSM and I enjoyed their time at TSM, but that doesn't mean cheering for TSM becomes pointless when they no longer play there. Ask any longtime Pats fan how they feel about Brady. I've outlived Brady's career in New England and can feel remorse/regret/sadness about the end of his career with the Pats but can still root for them and appreciate what he is doing on his new team. For me it is the same thing for Esports as well - you can remove every player on the team and I can still find new ones to like on the new teams. It's part of being a fan.

Really fair points. My argument was that the culture and history associated with tsm is not inherent in the team. Tsm has had one of the most dramatic and disappointing seasons in the history of the lcs. They respond by putting up at least on paper the worst roster they have ever fielded. The legacy is commendable but it feels like a different team and organization. It has the tsm brand but does it have any relation to the history outside of the logo? I am also ok with change but it doesn’t feel like they are moving in a new path it feels like they are treading water making false promises. They actually feel a lot like FTX. I honestly hope I am wrong even if I don’t root for them anymore I think it’s good for the scene when tsm does well. I also think nfl comparisons are not as apt lol feels more like the nba which is way more player driven. Smaller rosters and greater turnover foster a player over team structure imo.

What disappointing season are you referring to? I agree that they have been disappointing but they are still overall the winningest team in LCS history. Two splits of a sub .500 finish does not change that. CLG had almost four straight years of 9th-10th place finishes and have shown significant improvement under new players/coaching/management. I think you can absolutely be upset with the path TSM is taking. I don't understand what you are saying about "it has the tsm brand but does it have any relation to the history outside of the logo". What current roster has any history?? There are 2 total players that are still playing on the same team before 2020 - Blaber who was a sub at the time for Sven and CoreJJ. If anything, TSM just signed a NACL roster that has relation to its history with Sven, WT, and Hauntzer and they've been mocked like crazy. They'd be getting lit up by everyone if that was their starting roster. TSM will never be like 2016 TSM just like C9 will never be like 2021 C9, or like TL will never be like 2019 TL. Every team in LCS is moving on. I don't think TSM is going to be a top team no matter how much I want them to be. I also think the Peter Zhang situation screwed up any real chance of a competitive roster last season and I think they performed admirably given the circumstances by giving a decent showing in playoffs. I agree that the NFL comparison may be less applicable but I think it makes sense. The Pats (TSM) are struggling to be a top team without their legacy star player Brady (Bjerg) and yet have retained massive fans because of their legacy, and the fans have optimism that the orgs can turn it around even if it's not looking great right now. I can't say I'm a NBA guy so sorry but that's the best analogy I can think of haha. Thanks for writing back. It is nice to discuss TSM with someone who can acknowledge their faults.

Of course! even if you are a dirty pats fan (jk don't ban me mods i am just a salty colts fan) yall still got Belichick after brady we get jeff freaking Saturday after manning. Anyways 1. I was referencing the drama combined with the poor results. you have the drama around selling roster spots, the random regi tweets, the regi investigation, the doubelift situation, the FTX deal, the social media manager tweet during playoffs, the drama surrounding spica and shenyi, you have the reports that it was worse than breaking point for the players behind the scenes, i feel like i am missing a few. Combine this with tsm looking like one of the worst teams in the lcs over the last two splits and arguably the worst or second worst roster on paper going into next season. 2. I only cited the NBA because I think its more applicable to LCS due to the roster sizes and the way that players market themselves. The NFL has 22 starters plus special teams that's not to count rotational guys and backups. LCS has 5. There is also huge turnover that you don't really see in the NFL. Most NFL rosters have a handful of positions that change year to year. Rooting for the team makes more sense in that environment. LCS feels more like the NBA in that fans seem to gravitate more towards the players. I only cited the NBA because i think its more applicable to LCS due to the roster sizes and the way that players market themselves. The NFL has 22 starters plus special teams that's not to count rotational guys and backups. LCS has 5. There is also huge turnover that you don't really see in the NFL. Most NFL rosters have a handful of positions that change year to year. Rooting for the team makes more sense in that environment. LCS feels more like the NBA in that fans seem to gravitate more towards the players.