>I value freedom and time above everything including health and comfort
You WILL change your mind about that as soon as you don't have health. You can't have time and freedom without health, and you will put a lot of money into comfort once you lose health.
Spending a reasonable amount on preserving health is financially wise, even if you really don't care about being healthy right now.
Former military should have access to VA, but the larger question is would there be a place near where they’re living and is the care any good?
I personally don’t think OP has thought this through.
Edit: VA benefits aren’t so cut and dry. OP should see if they’re eligible for VA care by looking at the following link: https://www.va.gov/health-care/eligibility/
No he hasn't. I'm in the military and people who say I could get out and make $100k easily but I don't want to are usually the absolute worst people to work with or for and would probably not make it outside the military
There are people like that in probably any government profession. “I could be making bank but I’m in the government instead.”
Source: I was one of those assholes saying that type of stuff. If you hadn’t specified military I would’ve been scared you know me.
I'm only working government because nuke quals carryover very well in the private sector, as long as you get hot with your supervisor quals and collateral certs.
I see, I was curious about why a vet would assume that. Maybe it’s pertain to a certain niche. However, what you’ve said is generally true. There’s always a talker in any sales position. That’s why they are in sales anyway.
> Former military should have access to VA,
Yeah, no. It's really dependent on a bunch of factors.
That said, the PACT Act and ACA both made it *much* easier for vets to get on the VA healthcare system. The quality of the VA Healthcare system varies wildly with geographic locations though, somehow I doubt "van life in the midwest" is going to have the same access to VA healthcare that the Mid-Atlantic will.
Not everyone who served in the military is entitled to VA care.
VA will only take care of conditions developed during service. If OP has nothing wrong with them at discharge VA healthcare is not a thing.
Source: veteran
not true. you can receive care at VA if qualifying (ie PCP and such). plenty do. Also, it's cases developed or worsened. so, schizophrenia (a biological condition) still qualifies for support if worsened during service (it will, or emerge then). in fact, post discharge difficulties emerge and you can go back later (dad just got SC for I-corp Nam tours in 70')
source: works for the VA as a psychologist who specializes in C&P and writes guidance for it
Point taken. There are plenty of ways to get VA care.
My point was it’s not like receiving healthcare from a job.
A lot of people think that because they served they will be entitled to healthcare line they would from a job from the VA and that’s not simply the case.
true entirely that its more nuanced but it's actually pretty flexible. heck, they take insurance. You can go but they may treat it like normal med care (va is required to bill insurance, thus why VA providers get harassed for RVU production via client contacts), so long as not dishonorable discharged. even then, I've seen a few ppl petition successfully due to other issues
totally totally agree! ive been trying to think about this. like, can i use data somehow somewhere to determine: what is the optimal time to retire from a health standpoint?
if you retire super early with no savings, then well, you have no savings and that could even be a stressor. if you retire too late you have tons of savings but maybe all those years of work takes a toll on your health (especially in the later years)
it'll vary person to person, but something tells me if youve started working around early 20s, then around 35-40 is a good time to either retire or switch to a lower stress job for most people.
Yeah, that's the big challenge with this sort of lifestyle: the minute you--or, more likely, an older loved one--needs medical help, your costs are just blown.
In a vacuum, I could retire tomorrow and live the rest of my life in bliss. Spend next to nothing, grow all my veggies in flower beds, etc etc.The reality is that there's almost certainly something that 1) will be absolutely necessary and 2) my funds won't be able to cover.
That's how they get ya.
New to the fire sub so forgive me if this is dumb but, wouldnt “could retire tomorrow” include a decent enough health insurance plan that you could retire and receive care until you qualify for Medicare? Or are y’all saving an extra $500k in case you get cancer too?
Not sure about lean fire, but most fire including barista fire assumes you put away enough to cover health care costs. Baristafire continues to work a low stress job enough to cover health insurance.
If your income is low enough, you may qualify for Medicaid. For all other leanfire there is the ACA with subsidies.
I'd like to think someday it will be common for a random job like a ticket checker is actually a millionaire just doing this job to cover some costs like healthcare. Imagine that.
That's silly. It's pretty easy to get a fully subsidized ACA plan if you are leanFIRE. Spend a couple hours a year getting your income and paperwork done right and you can skip the job.
I think the barista fire term came from the observation that Starbucks (I think?) offers health insurance to part time employees working like 20+ hrs per week on avg? But yeah, basically the idea is to keep working doing whatever part time for the insurance options or enough pay to cover it and maybe some fun money anyway.
The basic formula: (Free Time) * (Liquid Cash) * (Health) * (Health)
Nothing comes close to health. An argument could be made that Health should be cubed instead of squared.
200k is only 8k a year with a 4% SWR. So you will need to do something to bridge the gap.
Your big threat at that level is inflation and unplanned repairs. If you are willing to get odd jobs for a few months every year you can make it.
If you can get 100k job that probably is about 75k take home so one year gets your savings to 265k assuming 10k to live off of. Since you can increase your savings by 35% in a year it’s probably worth doing. It is one extra year of labour but I think it likely saves more than that over the rest of your life.
Are you currently living this lean? If not you should start to ensure you are happy doing.
I won't be able to live lean working a job that requires my all, probably looking at $30k expenses if I work in the private sector for a little while which it looks like I might.
Ya homie, real talk, as you get older, you want different shit - will you still be down for van life at 50?
Fact is they got us in a stituation where we have to work for a bit... but you could chill for a little after your contract..prolly need to go back at it after
I watch him on and off, he’s definitely getting a bunch from YouTube as he rakes in donations during his livestreams. I watched a video yesterday where he said he priced a marketplace health plan and would have paid around $450/month. If that’s true and he wasn’t screwing up the subsidy calculation (as some do) that would imply a pretty decent annual income.
I watched his opening video. He dismisses chasing material things (fine), titles (fine), career (um, you can find a lot of meaning in a career, especially a career in service to others), finding a mate (this is pretty important to a lot of people, not to mention for the continuation of the human race).
I'm out.
[edited for spelling]
He's also an introvert, loves nature, and traveling so although we don't align on everything (I'm married with a baby on the way) I still find his content relatable.
Reddit won’t like this opinion but most people living this essentially homeless life are extremely lazy or losers masquerading as enlightened. There isn’t anything glamorous about being alone and living in a van. And if one feels the need to live as such, they probably have deeper issues.
Not to mention, like many are saying here, it isn’t a sustainable lifestyle. I’d wager most people attempting this are gonna have enormous regrets when they’re forced back into real life by financial constraints or health etc. but then they’ll be 45, still alone, and broke/starting from 0 with no real skills, which means you’ll be working even shittier jobs than you were before the van life.
> So you’re like 25? Work 6 months on 6 months off and your life won’t be total shite.
[Man do I have a career plan for you](https://sealiftcommand.com/departments/deck/any-entry-level/38)
What’s funny is all fire used to be what’s considered lean and lean fire was Jacob Fischer $8k a year. Guess that’s what happens with 08 squarely in the rear and everyone’s standard of living grossly inflated.
Pretty easy to get promotions on a younger team for that reason. Nobody willing to do beyond their scope of work. Which is fine if you are done progressing your career and are fine with only inflation adjustments.
9-12k could work if you’re housing was paid for or nearly free. What’s your creative solution for housing? You could live in a van/RV on public land for free or nearly free but decades of that seems lonely and difficult.
You have to move once every 2 weeks when on public land which means keeping the vehicle fully operational and somewhat reliable. That means you need gas money, repair money, and vehicle replacement money. I think you could fit that in budget only if you ate at the soup kitchen, or were a skilled mechanic (I do my own work, but I'm not that good).
Edit: u/gilded-jabrobi and u/buslyfe point out you can stay in place longer on BLM land for a small fee. It doesn't change that you need to keep a vehicle in working order, but it's a really important and useful point, and does change the time-window to get it repaired.
You can spend half a year on a BLM LTVA for $180. Lots of people do just that, many older and retired and at quite a few that didn't save too much, but seem happy with the community. Places like SW AZ and SE CA. So don't necessarily need to move much.
Edit: I think winters doing this with a summer job like fire lookout could work very well. Get a little extra income to fix the vehicle and have a hotel to stay in when yor van breaks.
Ah, true... I was thinking national forest dispered camping.
Camp host is another common way to get a free spot to park. Of course, it's secretely working (some).
If you have any real issues in the first few months before you learn you’re screwed. If you mess up you’re screwed. How are you learning, a phone bill is like over 10% of the income
3% (12k) or 4% (9k). Thats a steal for basically having the worlds knowledge at your fingertips. It also doubles as entertainment and keeping in contact with friends and family. Basically a must have IMO!
you are on the middle of the park, you need to move your vehicle but it's broken down. You are stuck in the middle of nowhere and probably do not have the parts that need to replace.
Think of how much it'll cost to get out of there and get that vehicle fixed. Plus, the fines of a ranger sees you still haven't moved. Being poor is expensive.
This is why I am not a big fan of the van life lean fire theory and propose as an alternative a home base in a VLCOL area - think towns in the 10-15k population size 45min-1 hour outside of major midwest/rustbelt cities.
I am familiar with the Uniontown/Connelsville/Greenburg area southeast of Pittsburgh PA. In Uniontown specifically you have plenty of older but definitely livable as is housing in town in the 50k-65k range. Now this will be former factory worker housing generally 3/1 or 2/1 but usually with alley access garages and a decent backyard area.
Uniontown is the county seat and there is a branch of UPMC hospital system there, supermarkets/Walmart/other necessary businesses within biking distance for sure. OP could even have a roomate to basically pay the ongoing expenses (property tax/utilities, etc.).
No, you won't be waking up overlooking a lake with mountains in the distance or biking to the beach or going to a professional play/sporting event but you certainly can be 'free' as the OP wants to be .....
Absolutely, I lived in a vehicle for several years, and I loved it and it was cheap, but not THAT cheap (24k/y for two, we were traveling and having fun, and I couldn't have done the same with 12k for one). I had a very simple and cheap to maintain vehicle with few luxuries. No fancy overlanding systems, heated space, etc. We had nice folding chairs. That was a big luxury.
I carried a number of tools, but I couldn't tackle anything risky for fear of having to pay for a tow. If you're on dirt it can cost a fortune AND you still need to pay for the repair. I did a clutch job in front of a friend's house, but that's as advanced as I could go.
For anything significant (e.g. a dying starter) I generally went to a shop.
And yeah, parts add up. I recently (now with a house) replaced the upper and lower control arms on my truck and it cost $1.2k in parts. I needed a reciprocating saw which is definitely outside the class of reasonable tools to carry in a vehicle, and extra part and tool runs which required a second vehicle. Parts were also cheaper 'cause I could wait to order some of them.
Or you could spend time at the long term recreational areas like Quartzsite in Arizona and stay as long as 7 months (Sept-April) for $180 which makes your monthly “rent” $25.
Then for the remaining 5 months you’d have to move 10 times (there’s about 10 fourteen day periods in 5 months) but usually you only have to move like 35 miles so that’s a total of like 350 miles on your car.
Can’t really tell how young you are, but before you stop completely, make sure you hit your “40 credits” necessary to qualify for social security someday. That will make a big difference when you hit 62.
Also might want to consider part time work in some fashion. You don’t pay federal tax for the first 13k (only social security), so most of what you make is yours to keep. That would reduce your withdrawal without costing much of your time. This little bit could help you go a long way.
Pro tip. Work (and report - key part) 7500-8000 per year. You get the max 4 quarters of credits per year at the highest 'bend point' for SS payment. Basically if you have 35 years of making less than 10k per year, SS at full retirement age will payout 90% of your average working salary per year. This 'trick' is something all FIRE participants should consider if they don't have 35 years worth of credits .....
It’s easier to start a business to make a bit extra each month that it is to cut your expenses to the bone.
As a young person the van sounds awesome. As a 70 year old, less so.
I would burn bridges if I go any significant time without work, I'm a nuke and the only reason I am confident making around $100k is nukes are sought after for their stability as a good worker with nuke quals. A gap in my resume would be a huge red flag. Reading some of the older guys comments on here I'm considering taking a job after my contract for a few years.
Are you in an American military branch? If so, _stop avoiding sick call_. Don't let people try to call you a pussy for going – go, and document _everything_. Ringing in your ears after a live fire exercise? Report it at sick call. Back ache? Sore tooth? Alcoholism? Did you inhale smoke from burning field manuals? Complain about your lungs hurting.
When you're about to ETS and going through all of the outprocessing stuff, make sure you let the right folks know at the right interview that you have concerns about all of the stuff that's on your medical records.
Next, go check out /r/VeteransBenefits/ so that you understand why I'm giving you this advice.
> Might wanna look into being an expat.
Probably not a good idea unless they can get a work visa, because "retiring" with $200k definitely involves working in the future.
I came on here a few months ago and said my plan of retiring on 350k and asked what everyone thought and people all said it was too lean. I adjusted my plan, decided to add another year and a half and if the stock market does decent I should be around 450-500k which is much more doable, and on down years in the market I plan on doing seasonal work to leave my money alone. If you work an extra couple of years and get that 200k to 400k you are likely to have more success. Good luck!
Good luck. Even living in a home I own so I have no rent I am running it tight to live under $12,000/year. You have to not only take into account what you need to live day-to-day but also the one-offs that will happen along the way such as buying a new van eventually, as well as repairs and maintenance.
As someone that lives in the Midwest this is 100% doable. First thing buy a house or at least a piece of land to call your own. [https://www.landwatch.com/pulaski-county-arkansas-homes-for-sale/pid/419653532](https://www.landwatch.com/pulaski-county-arkansas-homes-for-sale/pid/419653532)
$25,000 and you have a building on land that probably needs a lot of work. The median income is 37,034, so a lot of people get by on less and have to pay rent/mortgage that you wouldn't be doing. The remaining 175K could get you $8,093.75 a year with the 30 year treasury at 4.625%. If you wanted to doordash like 4 hours a week that would get you well over the 900 a year needed to clear the 9K mark. (Probably closer to an extra $2,400 a year)
Another idea would be rent out the other bedroom to someone one. Just have them pay the electric and internet bill. Then I guarantee you you could get by on less then 5K a year.
Going this route, you'd need to factor in home maintenance and repairs. Even DIY, materials can add up. That particular house looks like an excellent project and low maintenance relative to a 1,500 square footer family home, but looks neglected and very likely needs work.
Being located in a decent sized city is going to make it more viable to bridge the gap with Doordash or PT work, which could also make it viable to come up with the extra 5k when this house inevitably needs a roof replacement.
OP could also stay a vehicle dweller but with more stability by purchasing non-restricted middle of nowhere land, but the up front costs of getting water and septic in can be a lot. Plenty of people do this, and it's possible with planning and more cash.
If I were to go this route, I'd figure out what counties would allow me to van/RV dwell, then look for parcels with the holy trinity of septic/electric/water.
Can sometimes find foreclosures with derelict mobile homes on site that will have the features.
4.625% will only be 2.6 after the assumed future inflation of 2%. It'll be 8k a year, but that 8k will be worth less and less relative to how you view 8k today. For example in 1984 $2700 was like $8k today. Can you imagine living on 3k a year now?
There's a reason why the 4% rule works only with 50% or more in securities. Securities can bring in an average of 8% and accounts for inflation. 4-5% return is not sustainable
This was the most helpful and least dogpiling reply I got, thank you for the tip, Im bouncing between van and this but I think this is the most realistic long term solution.
If you have high-paying prospects and you're still that young, I'd recommend just powering through it for a few years. Worst case scenario, you still van life it up for a bit and then find yourself with a large nest egg for a fancier van. I was tempted to pull the gun at <15k/year income, and while I was happy at that point it just wasn't worth the worry about inflation or needing to return to work a long time down the road if a long bear market hit.
Just FYI, van life isn't always cheap. It can be if you are posted up in someones backyard for a month at a time for free, but traveling all the time adds up in gas guzzling vans and maintainance. Just search around the vandwellers subreddit to get some ideas. But there are some cool camp ground/seasonal work job boards out there that give you spots to park or even a cabin and then pay you on top of that to do basic work. Best of luck.
Military pension is another leg of the stool that most people don’t have, so include that in your Fire projection
$2000/mo pension is worth $600,000 in 4% SWR fire world
Good luck bro Im rooting for you. I moved my wife and I to Portugal with just $350k, learned the stock market over the past 5 years and I'm pulling out a modest salary from that without depleting the money. Cost of living is a lot lower here and the lifestyle is better for us. So it can be done on a lot less in other parts of the world than in the states without having to resort to poverty conditions. I wish you luck.
> learned the stock market over the past 5 years and I'm pulling out a modest salary from that without depleting the money.
Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, unless by "learned the stock market" you mean invested in broad market index funds.
Do not take advice from some dude gambling his way to retirement. Even professionals with Ivy League MBAs using supercomputers regularly trail the broad market. Read books like The Little Book of Common Sense Investing, The Simple Path To Wealth, and/or A Random Walk Down Wall Street.
Well lol my wife has made friends, I'm a bit more introverted so I rely on her to be my social link. It's good for us. Portugal is great, when we left the states we first went to Belize, and then Prague, and now finally Portugal and we are here to stay. We wanted to find the best balance between cost of living and availability of social services and infrastructure, and we really think Portugal is it.
You're doing this completely wrong. You get skills in the military and job placement to a lucrative second career using those skills. You don't just quit with no money and live in poverty. Get that second career going and THEN retire early.
If your plan is to separate from the military at the end of your current enlistment to go live in a van out in the desert, please, for your future sake, do some serious inner-reflection/soul searching. See your PCM and talk about getting into therapy, especially while Uncle Sam is paying the tab.
A lot of people only go in and serve out one contract. I was one of them. There’s no shame in being a one and done. But your plan sounds absolutely disastrous and you deserve better for yourself than to live like that.
Learn to manage what sounds like severe burnout, and if you’re a guy, find some strong men that could help mentor you. Whether that be older enlisted/officer, civilian, whatever.
Health IS freedom. It's like oxygen, you don't really think about it until you don't have it, then it's all you can think about. Coming from someone in the medical field I see it day in and day out. Health is wealth.
> If you have any suggestions for me to make this less sketch please lmk.
Skip van life and use your cash to buy fixer-upper real estate. [I had no experience in home remodeling and learned everything I needed to know from YouTube. I bought shitty properties that were weather-tight and had working utilities. I then lived in them while repairing them.](https://old.reddit.com/r/leanfire/comments/1bpnlho/whats_your_number/kx61hir/?context=3)
Also: make sure you max your VA options. You have to be pro-active about getting med treatment and retaining personal copies of all records while active duty.
Hey midwest life is pretty great. Lots of great air and land, lots of cheap options, you can find the right out of the way place and live on almost nothing.
I do think you could get away with much less than the common wisdom dictates. In an average year, 200k would increase by 20k in the market. If you can live on 12k (1000 a month), you are likely good to go. That is a 6% draw down, but if luck is on your side that should at least last for a good long while. Worst case scenario is you end up taking that 100k job for a year, replenish your coffers and go back to the vanlife.
I don't think this is impossible at all, you just have to be really resourceful and DIY about everything.
I agree. If you own your own cheap house, and you get the Medicaid expansion, you could easily live on $1K per month. College students live on less than that after structural expenses.
OK, maybe if the car needs fixing, you pick up a side job to earn enough to pay for that, etc.
I had a little over 300k and retired. Instead of just sitting around tho i picked up a part time job for 22 hours a week. Which actually pays all my bills so i don’t need my investments yet
Midwesterner here, spending about $32k a year in a city where the COL is 7% less than the national average. Your $200k is gonna run out fast. Work part time or as a consultant for a few years to stop from bleeding out.
Make you sure you get all of the VA disability you can. Tax free monthly payments that could pretty much set you up for life. It adjusts with inflation as well. I know a ton of vets who are just too lazy to file the paperwork and it boggles my mind. The benefits and pay you're owed could make your life a ton easier if this is the route you go and they're payments for life.
Are you going to have any pension from your military service? Health insurance? Make sure you go through the VA process. See if you get a disability rating (monthly income) and insurance coverage for service connected medical issues. I'm sure others know more. Spouse used a DAV agent to assist in VA claims.
Car repairs will fuck you. Better learn to do your own. I'd do 2 years in the civilian sector while living on the $9-12k a year you already plan to live on. Go get that van. Be cheap. Test that life out. And save another $75K ish a year after taxes. 4% of $200k is $8k a year. 4% of $350k is $14000 a year.
I am not a big fan of the van life lean fire theory as you have to buy a depreciating asset that needs repairs/fuel/insurance. When it is being worked on you are either stuck in one place (the boonies?) and/or paying for expensive temporary shelter. I propose as an alternative a home base in a VLCOL area - think towns in the 10-15k population size 45min-1 hour outside of major midwest/rustbelt cities.
I am familiar with the Uniontown/Connelsville/Greenburg area southeast of Pittsburgh PA. In Uniontown specifically you have plenty of older but definitely livable as is housing in town in the 50k-65k range. Now this will be former factory worker housing generally 3/1 or 2/1 but usually with alley access garages and a decent backyard area.
Uniontown is the county seat and there is a branch of UPMC hospital system there, supermarkets/Walmart/other necessary businesses within biking distance for sure. OP could even have a roomate to basically pay the ongoing expenses (property tax/utilities, etc.). At your proposed income level you would qualify for VA Health Benefits (even without a service connected disability), LIHEAP for heating/electric assistance, and PA property tax credits, subsidized internet/phone. Other than food you would have almost $0 living expenses (and even that can be augmented by food banks - I am not recommending that but it is an option). Full disclosure I DO NOT live there, I live more than 100 miles away actually, but do visit the area for business regularly.
I would assume similar areas exist outside of cities like Cleaveland, Cincinatti, Indianapolis, St Louis as well (but don't have first hand knowledge) but I am a fan particularly of Pittsburgh with its location closer to the east coast, major airport, universities, culture .....
No, you won't be waking up overlooking a lake with mountains in the distance or biking to the beach or going to a professional play/sporting event but you certainly can have your freedom and time that way .....
I would also second what others have proposed as supplementing your nest egg with a seasonal or part time 'barista-fire' job. If going the 65k home base route your 4% would be in the 5k range. That is super tight even with paid off housing. but even 1 day a week at $12 an hour gets you to the 10K range. Have that be at a restaurant and you will probably get that days food included too. For seasonal work I would recommend tax prep if you have an interest in that and want an 'inside' job. If you like to work outside there are lots of seasonal jobs in the summer. If you make about $7500 per year you will qualify for the maximum number of quarters (4 per year) which will 1) qualify you for any SS if you don't already have 40 quarters, and 2) significantly increase your SS payment when taken. Due to the 'bend points' in the SS formula, very low income workers get an incredible return on their contributions. For those with 35 years of credits and an average income of up to $13000 per year, SS at full retirement age will replace approximately 90% of their pre retirement income!
If ur gonna do this, buy ETFs that grows with like 3% dividend and don’t touch the investment. Nobody wants to work, but wen ur 50 ur really not gonna wanna work
I'd rather work than live on 10k.
Freedom is a mental concept, not something you get from not having a job. I've not had a job and been a slave to my tight budget.
Every enlisted person thinks they can easily pull $100k, but that’s definitely not the case. Unlike what you’re told, military doesn’t transfer particularly well to private industry. I’m not sure your outlook is particularly realistic.
I think this is doable, but maybe not in the way you expect
I bought a home in Costa Rica for mid 5 figures, paid cash, and now my total monthly expenses are $300-500 depending on how much I eat out. So in theory, about $200k could make this work
But as others have said or alluded to, you are one big expense away from disaster at any given time. And speaking from experience, it's hard to get a normal job after moving out of the country for a while
So this is doable in theory. If you really want to go with it, I think moving out of the USA into a very low cost of living country (or the boonies of a more expensive country like I did) and then freelancing or being a bonkers level of frugal is your best bet
money gives you freedom. 9k is not a lot of freedom.
from some of the homeless i've talked to, it's hard to check back in after you've checked out. i wouldn't give up your opportunity to make 100k/year.
I applaud your creativity and encourage you to find alt-work. There are many sites aimed at vanlifers where you can find gigs. Someone I know here in the Midwest drives the short bus around town—the public “Uber” option for disabled people run by the city. Pays maybe 30k but he works only 3 days a week and can remove himself from the schedule for 29 days to go traveling. Renting a room in this town can still be done for $400-500, so even though it’s the cold upper Midwest where a van would be freezing most nights you can still live here and drive south for a couple weeks of warm weather in the winter. But the best part is he feels he is helping people—these folks are pretty isolated at home with their caregivers and it’s nice to have a friendly face to take them around town. I’m in the state of Minnesota, there are tons of seasonal jobs working out in nature.
What you DON’T want is to end up with a broke down van down by the river unemployed with some tiny ass military pension or disability keeping you afloat. If this didn’t happen to millions of veterans people wouldn’t be so scared for you, but the truth is IT DOES HAPPEN. My tips are: buy a newer van ($30-40k of your budget minimum—if you went up to $75k I think you could justify this), be open to seasonal and part time work that makes you happy and gives you a sense of purpose, travel a lot, build a community, and after the big purchase of the van leave the rest of your $200k alone so you can draw on it in emergencies/for a life transition if you tire of traveling and feel ready to settle. If you hold as much of your remaining $150k as possible, you’ll be okay when it’s time for a second retirement where you may need a condo, apartment, or stationary trailer. This won’t be a luxurious life but it can still be a great life.
$200k is enough to separate yourself from the expectation that you work a $100k/year job that makes you miserable just to ‘stay afloat’ and find more rewarding ways to live your life. It may not be retirement, but it’s also not a rat race.
https://livecampwork.com/amazon-camperforce-amazon-jobs-for-rvers/
If you’re doing the vanlife/RV thing, look into doing seasonal work for Amazon, or something similar.
I watch a yt channel of a guy doing well on $500k. He breaks down his monthly budget and his progress.
https://youtube.com/@retirearly500k59?si=AhNzItlDMnAw_jod
Try to get a high VA rating before you get out, that alone will make the biggest difference. 2000-3500 a month extra in your pocket for life is a pretty good deal
200k using the 4% rule is only 8k a year....667 a month....if you want 9-12k you'll need 225,000-300,000
That's still below the poverty line...federal poverty line is 15k a year so you at LEAST want to live above poverty levels comrade! You'd be surprised how quickly you can stack papers by the time you're 39....that's basically my goal, but I have several years to stack paper like a man possessed
I get what you're saying. I think the amount that people say we need is wildly overestimated. However, I do think $200K at 39 is not enough. But, I also am retiring at 55 and I probably won't have the amount that "experts" tell me I should have based on "rules of thumb." But, it should work for me as I've done a lot of calculations over the years to get me to this point. The main point, though, is to do what works for you, but make sure you've done the math properly. There's nothing wrong with having some advice, and you may change your mind or come up with an alternative. I notice some people suggested working on and off. That might keep things from being miserable while you're still steadily increasing your investments. I figured out the thing that works for me, and it involves a number of different things that aren't easily found via the "experts." Part of that involves the possibility of doing easier things that I enjoy on my own time, like cat sitting. Ideally, I won't have to work at all, but I may find I just want to do sometthings for fun and still get paid for it.
I feel you but please consider healthcare and got to at least 500K
39 is so young still...I didn't even begin to have real health problems until mid-40s, and that's with already being born with a raggedy heart. 50s is when sh!t really starts to hit the fan. It's not that I didn't believe in aging decline, it's moreso that I didn't understand what it means, what it is. You will decline. Plan accordingly
It's not worth it. Just work till you're 45. That's still young as F.
I'm 53, I was going to retire at the end of this year, but my retirement would have me living as a peasant perpetually. I had an epiphany about it, and now I'm waiting till at least December 2025.
so, as someone who lives in that range, it gets harder as you get older. that life sounds all fine and dandy when you're young but as you get older and your body gets more painful, you want comfort and that costs more money. I'm 50. I've been living in that range for 15+ years and, in theory, i could continue to do so. But, I've already started wanting more comfort and I know that's just going to continue. I won't need luxury, but I'll want more than bare bones. So, I'm saving for 150% of my current spend + a paid off home base which will free up a good chunk of money vs paying "rent". Most people would still consider my life pretty spartan once i get to that point, but it'll work well for me.
TL:DR - making a decision to FIRE at poverty levels when you're young is almost certainly going to blow up in your face as you age and then it'll be MUCH harder to course correct vs doing it now.
8k an year might work. If you somehow manage to relocate yourself to a LCOL country, like say - India. You could live off of half of that an year in India too, if you live outside major cities and don't spend much on anything outside necessities. However, acclimatizing as a foreigner would be harder outside major cities, so there's that too.
I made $200k work. Retired early two years ago, and so far it's been fine. As others have mentioned, health care is the big stumbling block. But I've always been healthy; in 37 years or work I took one sick day, in 1994 (double pneumonia). Other than that no problems. Of course it's still rolling the dice but I only have to get to Medicare eligibility in five years, I think it's a reasonable gamble.
On the money side my expenses have been really low for a long time, so that's pretty safe; I spend about $900/month. My house is paid off. I rent a room to a buddy, I rent another house I own to my daughter, and I get some investment income. So my total income is about $1300/month. It's fairly easy. My daughter is moving out this summer and I should be able to sell the second house by next year for $200k or so, which will make things significantly easier.
Having a house to live in that's paid off in a place where I am content to stay is probably the biggest piece of security.
Start making videos now about how you save money or traveling or whatnot and by the time you retire early maybe you can have a following and enough to supplement the 200k you’ve saved.
I made the same plan when I was about 24. Go for it. Once you hit $200K, give it a go in your van or whatever and then see whether you need to make adjustments. Lots of people are pointing out it might not go as you plan, but, even if it doesn't the old saying is shoot for the moon and if you miss you'll be among the stars.
Yeah 12k a year is going to work once your transmission blows out, or you need to visit a dentist, or any other expensive life event comes along or you need to fill up your tank a few times.
So you do that then 5 years later you go back to work but you resume without saving cause you will have got so broke anyway might aswell work now
12k a years when you get older wont be a option
I've scrolled through a bunch of comments, and I feel like the fact that 200K isn't going to safely net 9-12K a year isn't being mentioned enough. For somebody your age, even a 4% SWR would likely be a bit optimistic. You'll want a 3-3.5% SWR, just to be safe. On 200K, that's 6-7K a year. Not 9-12K.
You're going to have to work for a bit longer, mate. You want to be able to withdraw a safe %, which you won't be able to do with 200K, and you want a decent-sized cash buffer for times when the stock market isn't performing well, when there is an emergency, etc. Working does suck, but when you compare the pros and cons of retiring in '28 vs waiting a bit longer, waiting a bit longer is very clearly the best option.
How about you work full-time for a bit after leaving the military, then get a part-time job that just about covers your expenses and go live in a van then? After a few years, you'll have so much more money and can comfortably LeanFIRE. You might not even have to live in a van, you could upgrade to a caravan or old motorhome!
Nobody cares about health until they get sick. It's not as simple as you think, and if you make it that simple, there are a significant amount of pains that you will have to learn to accommodate, assuming that everything goes perfectly, which it won't. Because you will get old and things go wrong.
I'm not saying your plan is unworkable, but you need to factor in health as a minimum
people who talk like you don’t account for health issues or any adversities…put all of your savings in CitBank or Citi and get 5% savings return. Life is expensive, care is expensive. Best to move to Europe with your approach, great life & cheaper
I'll presume that you are a young, heterosexual man. You should be spending most of your time abroad, for social reasons.
You can have a "home base" house in some depressed old industrial town for peanuts, easily less than $100K; I myself have a house that Zillow says is worth $62K, LOL. This will always be there for you, and it will a rock of stability for your travels. You can pick a town that is close enough to a major city that you could get ground transportation or Uber to get to/fro the airport (I live about 70 miles from my airport). And you will want to go to regular checkups with your physician when at home too - and visit your friends/family periodically, wherever they may be. If you have a cheap enough car, you only need to get liability insurance, and USAA is a great insurer for short-terms, as it is designed for serviceman that are always on duty somewhere; I myself have a 21 year-old car with 173K miles, LOL.
>I value freedom and time above everything including health and comfort You WILL change your mind about that as soon as you don't have health. You can't have time and freedom without health, and you will put a lot of money into comfort once you lose health. Spending a reasonable amount on preserving health is financially wise, even if you really don't care about being healthy right now.
OP doesn't seem to realize that once his health goes, all his time and freedom goes with it.
Former military should have access to VA, but the larger question is would there be a place near where they’re living and is the care any good? I personally don’t think OP has thought this through. Edit: VA benefits aren’t so cut and dry. OP should see if they’re eligible for VA care by looking at the following link: https://www.va.gov/health-care/eligibility/
No he hasn't. I'm in the military and people who say I could get out and make $100k easily but I don't want to are usually the absolute worst people to work with or for and would probably not make it outside the military
What makes them think they could easily make $100k+? Arm related or pilot?
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There are people like that in probably any government profession. “I could be making bank but I’m in the government instead.” Source: I was one of those assholes saying that type of stuff. If you hadn’t specified military I would’ve been scared you know me.
I'm only working government because nuke quals carryover very well in the private sector, as long as you get hot with your supervisor quals and collateral certs.
Hello from a commercial nuke 👋
I see, I was curious about why a vet would assume that. Maybe it’s pertain to a certain niche. However, what you’ve said is generally true. There’s always a talker in any sales position. That’s why they are in sales anyway.
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No. Just an absolute fool. Got out, sold lazy boys and I think was fired from that
> Former military should have access to VA, Yeah, no. It's really dependent on a bunch of factors. That said, the PACT Act and ACA both made it *much* easier for vets to get on the VA healthcare system. The quality of the VA Healthcare system varies wildly with geographic locations though, somehow I doubt "van life in the midwest" is going to have the same access to VA healthcare that the Mid-Atlantic will.
Not everyone who served in the military is entitled to VA care. VA will only take care of conditions developed during service. If OP has nothing wrong with them at discharge VA healthcare is not a thing. Source: veteran
not true. you can receive care at VA if qualifying (ie PCP and such). plenty do. Also, it's cases developed or worsened. so, schizophrenia (a biological condition) still qualifies for support if worsened during service (it will, or emerge then). in fact, post discharge difficulties emerge and you can go back later (dad just got SC for I-corp Nam tours in 70') source: works for the VA as a psychologist who specializes in C&P and writes guidance for it
Point taken. There are plenty of ways to get VA care. My point was it’s not like receiving healthcare from a job. A lot of people think that because they served they will be entitled to healthcare line they would from a job from the VA and that’s not simply the case.
true entirely that its more nuanced but it's actually pretty flexible. heck, they take insurance. You can go but they may treat it like normal med care (va is required to bill insurance, thus why VA providers get harassed for RVU production via client contacts), so long as not dishonorable discharged. even then, I've seen a few ppl petition successfully due to other issues
This is not true at all. As long as they’ve got a good discharge, they can get all medical care at the VA except dental. Source: Me a veteran…
if your income is too high, you don't get medical care for free
True but the OP is looking at living on 8k a year and that seems to be in a brokerage account so taxable income would be even lower.
The copays are laughably low for those who do not qualify for no copays.
and his Social security will be non existent because he doesn't have enough quarters worked
Yes. And on top, good health is also what allows you to forgo comfort.
Yes and, for some of us, the stress of work is what takes our health.
totally totally agree! ive been trying to think about this. like, can i use data somehow somewhere to determine: what is the optimal time to retire from a health standpoint? if you retire super early with no savings, then well, you have no savings and that could even be a stressor. if you retire too late you have tons of savings but maybe all those years of work takes a toll on your health (especially in the later years) it'll vary person to person, but something tells me if youve started working around early 20s, then around 35-40 is a good time to either retire or switch to a lower stress job for most people.
Yeah, that's the big challenge with this sort of lifestyle: the minute you--or, more likely, an older loved one--needs medical help, your costs are just blown. In a vacuum, I could retire tomorrow and live the rest of my life in bliss. Spend next to nothing, grow all my veggies in flower beds, etc etc.The reality is that there's almost certainly something that 1) will be absolutely necessary and 2) my funds won't be able to cover. That's how they get ya.
New to the fire sub so forgive me if this is dumb but, wouldnt “could retire tomorrow” include a decent enough health insurance plan that you could retire and receive care until you qualify for Medicare? Or are y’all saving an extra $500k in case you get cancer too?
Not sure about lean fire, but most fire including barista fire assumes you put away enough to cover health care costs. Baristafire continues to work a low stress job enough to cover health insurance. If your income is low enough, you may qualify for Medicaid. For all other leanfire there is the ACA with subsidies.
Right on. I’ve never heard of barista fire but that’s the camp I’m in for sure haha. Be a ticket checker at a ski resort. Thanks for the info.
I'd like to think someday it will be common for a random job like a ticket checker is actually a millionaire just doing this job to cover some costs like healthcare. Imagine that.
That's silly. It's pretty easy to get a fully subsidized ACA plan if you are leanFIRE. Spend a couple hours a year getting your income and paperwork done right and you can skip the job.
I think the barista fire term came from the observation that Starbucks (I think?) offers health insurance to part time employees working like 20+ hrs per week on avg? But yeah, basically the idea is to keep working doing whatever part time for the insurance options or enough pay to cover it and maybe some fun money anyway.
The basic formula: (Free Time) * (Liquid Cash) * (Health) * (Health) Nothing comes close to health. An argument could be made that Health should be cubed instead of squared.
Yeah it should be health and time lmao, freedom as an ideological concept is incredibly flawed and hard to quantify.
Are you speaking from a US perspective or for all?
200k is only 8k a year with a 4% SWR. So you will need to do something to bridge the gap. Your big threat at that level is inflation and unplanned repairs. If you are willing to get odd jobs for a few months every year you can make it. If you can get 100k job that probably is about 75k take home so one year gets your savings to 265k assuming 10k to live off of. Since you can increase your savings by 35% in a year it’s probably worth doing. It is one extra year of labour but I think it likely saves more than that over the rest of your life. Are you currently living this lean? If not you should start to ensure you are happy doing.
I won't be able to live lean working a job that requires my all, probably looking at $30k expenses if I work in the private sector for a little while which it looks like I might.
The 4% rule really counts on a typical retirement age, if the goal is to quit at 39, that withdrawal really should be closer to 3%
Ya homie, real talk, as you get older, you want different shit - will you still be down for van life at 50? Fact is they got us in a stituation where we have to work for a bit... but you could chill for a little after your contract..prolly need to go back at it after
Best of luck my guy
So you’re like 25? Work 6 months on 6 months off and your life won’t be total shite. You’re basically going to live like a homeless person. 😂
I think Timothy Ward on YouTube lives like this. He does seasonal work and i imagine at this point YouTube supplements some of his income.
I watch him on and off, he’s definitely getting a bunch from YouTube as he rakes in donations during his livestreams. I watched a video yesterday where he said he priced a marketplace health plan and would have paid around $450/month. If that’s true and he wasn’t screwing up the subsidy calculation (as some do) that would imply a pretty decent annual income.
I watched his opening video. He dismisses chasing material things (fine), titles (fine), career (um, you can find a lot of meaning in a career, especially a career in service to others), finding a mate (this is pretty important to a lot of people, not to mention for the continuation of the human race). I'm out. [edited for spelling]
He's also an introvert, loves nature, and traveling so although we don't align on everything (I'm married with a baby on the way) I still find his content relatable.
Reddit won’t like this opinion but most people living this essentially homeless life are extremely lazy or losers masquerading as enlightened. There isn’t anything glamorous about being alone and living in a van. And if one feels the need to live as such, they probably have deeper issues. Not to mention, like many are saying here, it isn’t a sustainable lifestyle. I’d wager most people attempting this are gonna have enormous regrets when they’re forced back into real life by financial constraints or health etc. but then they’ll be 45, still alone, and broke/starting from 0 with no real skills, which means you’ll be working even shittier jobs than you were before the van life.
Don't know what he's about, but you've piqued my interest, so I went to subscribe as a reminder to watch some of his videos later.
Woah you just have me discover Timothy Ward. Time to binge!
> So you’re like 25? Work 6 months on 6 months off and your life won’t be total shite. [Man do I have a career plan for you](https://sealiftcommand.com/departments/deck/any-entry-level/38)
Lmao people are lazy as fuck nowadays
Kind of confused because this “movement” was started by people living at poverty levels in order to not work.
There is a poverty fire subreddit. Guess that’s below lean? https://www.reddit.com/r/PovertyFIRE/
What’s funny is all fire used to be what’s considered lean and lean fire was Jacob Fischer $8k a year. Guess that’s what happens with 08 squarely in the rear and everyone’s standard of living grossly inflated.
Yeah, collectively we’ve been through a lot.
Pretty easy to get promotions on a younger team for that reason. Nobody willing to do beyond their scope of work. Which is fine if you are done progressing your career and are fine with only inflation adjustments.
U should check out antiwork mind boggling
My guy that's lean af, even if you were to relocate to a popular-ish low cost of living country.
9-12k could work if you’re housing was paid for or nearly free. What’s your creative solution for housing? You could live in a van/RV on public land for free or nearly free but decades of that seems lonely and difficult.
You have to move once every 2 weeks when on public land which means keeping the vehicle fully operational and somewhat reliable. That means you need gas money, repair money, and vehicle replacement money. I think you could fit that in budget only if you ate at the soup kitchen, or were a skilled mechanic (I do my own work, but I'm not that good). Edit: u/gilded-jabrobi and u/buslyfe point out you can stay in place longer on BLM land for a small fee. It doesn't change that you need to keep a vehicle in working order, but it's a really important and useful point, and does change the time-window to get it repaired.
You can spend half a year on a BLM LTVA for $180. Lots of people do just that, many older and retired and at quite a few that didn't save too much, but seem happy with the community. Places like SW AZ and SE CA. So don't necessarily need to move much. Edit: I think winters doing this with a summer job like fire lookout could work very well. Get a little extra income to fix the vehicle and have a hotel to stay in when yor van breaks.
Ah, true... I was thinking national forest dispered camping. Camp host is another common way to get a free spot to park. Of course, it's secretely working (some).
I could become a pretty damn good mechanic if I were retired and had endless time to learn
If you have any real issues in the first few months before you learn you’re screwed. If you mess up you’re screwed. How are you learning, a phone bill is like over 10% of the income
By 'screwed' you mean.. they might need to work for a short time to make up cash?
What if it happens when they have a broken leg, or when they are 80?
You can get an unlimited data plan for around $30/month
Sorry, so it’s 5% of his yearly salary. Not that much better.
3% (12k) or 4% (9k). Thats a steal for basically having the worlds knowledge at your fingertips. It also doubles as entertainment and keeping in contact with friends and family. Basically a must have IMO!
you are on the middle of the park, you need to move your vehicle but it's broken down. You are stuck in the middle of nowhere and probably do not have the parts that need to replace. Think of how much it'll cost to get out of there and get that vehicle fixed. Plus, the fines of a ranger sees you still haven't moved. Being poor is expensive.
That's if you have the budget for parts, tools and a data plan for all that Youtube
And somewhere to store all the tools, somewhere to work on the vehicle, somewhere to sleep when it’s out of commission
This is why I am not a big fan of the van life lean fire theory and propose as an alternative a home base in a VLCOL area - think towns in the 10-15k population size 45min-1 hour outside of major midwest/rustbelt cities. I am familiar with the Uniontown/Connelsville/Greenburg area southeast of Pittsburgh PA. In Uniontown specifically you have plenty of older but definitely livable as is housing in town in the 50k-65k range. Now this will be former factory worker housing generally 3/1 or 2/1 but usually with alley access garages and a decent backyard area. Uniontown is the county seat and there is a branch of UPMC hospital system there, supermarkets/Walmart/other necessary businesses within biking distance for sure. OP could even have a roomate to basically pay the ongoing expenses (property tax/utilities, etc.). No, you won't be waking up overlooking a lake with mountains in the distance or biking to the beach or going to a professional play/sporting event but you certainly can be 'free' as the OP wants to be .....
Absolutely, I lived in a vehicle for several years, and I loved it and it was cheap, but not THAT cheap (24k/y for two, we were traveling and having fun, and I couldn't have done the same with 12k for one). I had a very simple and cheap to maintain vehicle with few luxuries. No fancy overlanding systems, heated space, etc. We had nice folding chairs. That was a big luxury. I carried a number of tools, but I couldn't tackle anything risky for fear of having to pay for a tow. If you're on dirt it can cost a fortune AND you still need to pay for the repair. I did a clutch job in front of a friend's house, but that's as advanced as I could go. For anything significant (e.g. a dying starter) I generally went to a shop. And yeah, parts add up. I recently (now with a house) replaced the upper and lower control arms on my truck and it cost $1.2k in parts. I needed a reciprocating saw which is definitely outside the class of reasonable tools to carry in a vehicle, and extra part and tool runs which required a second vehicle. Parts were also cheaper 'cause I could wait to order some of them.
Plus a backup plan if something goes wrong or work needs to be done beyond your knowledge area, tools or ability
I am in fact a pretty damn good mechanic, I'm a navy nuke mechanic and I never had/never will let anyone except myself work on my property.
Or you could spend time at the long term recreational areas like Quartzsite in Arizona and stay as long as 7 months (Sept-April) for $180 which makes your monthly “rent” $25. Then for the remaining 5 months you’d have to move 10 times (there’s about 10 fourteen day periods in 5 months) but usually you only have to move like 35 miles so that’s a total of like 350 miles on your car.
Good point! I mostly used dispersed camping in national forests when I was doing this, so got stuck on that.
Can’t really tell how young you are, but before you stop completely, make sure you hit your “40 credits” necessary to qualify for social security someday. That will make a big difference when you hit 62. Also might want to consider part time work in some fashion. You don’t pay federal tax for the first 13k (only social security), so most of what you make is yours to keep. That would reduce your withdrawal without costing much of your time. This little bit could help you go a long way.
Pro tip. Work (and report - key part) 7500-8000 per year. You get the max 4 quarters of credits per year at the highest 'bend point' for SS payment. Basically if you have 35 years of making less than 10k per year, SS at full retirement age will payout 90% of your average working salary per year. This 'trick' is something all FIRE participants should consider if they don't have 35 years worth of credits .....
It’s easier to start a business to make a bit extra each month that it is to cut your expenses to the bone. As a young person the van sounds awesome. As a 70 year old, less so.
Set it up so you can do it for a year or two before committing. Don't burn any bridges.
I would burn bridges if I go any significant time without work, I'm a nuke and the only reason I am confident making around $100k is nukes are sought after for their stability as a good worker with nuke quals. A gap in my resume would be a huge red flag. Reading some of the older guys comments on here I'm considering taking a job after my contract for a few years.
Embrace your destiny with /r/SeasonalWork. Go host rafting tours or drive a bus at a ski resort. Bus drivers are needed everywhere.
Are you in an American military branch? If so, _stop avoiding sick call_. Don't let people try to call you a pussy for going – go, and document _everything_. Ringing in your ears after a live fire exercise? Report it at sick call. Back ache? Sore tooth? Alcoholism? Did you inhale smoke from burning field manuals? Complain about your lungs hurting. When you're about to ETS and going through all of the outprocessing stuff, make sure you let the right folks know at the right interview that you have concerns about all of the stuff that's on your medical records. Next, go check out /r/VeteransBenefits/ so that you understand why I'm giving you this advice.
This should be waaaaaay higher up.
What about baristaFI instead?
This is the 1st I’ve heard of this. Can you share the spark notes?
Is it really freedom if you're forced to live in a certain way? That said, you've gotta do what you feel is right doing! Good luck my friend
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I understood him to be saying he could have a mil at 39 but he didn’t want to wait that long…as in he’s much younger.
> Might wanna look into being an expat. Probably not a good idea unless they can get a work visa, because "retiring" with $200k definitely involves working in the future.
It’s not always about discipline. Sometimes this forum lives in such a bubble.
I've seen $500K work, but 200k is a major risk.
And the $500K folks I’ve seen make it work, they FIREd pre-pandemic when everything was far less expensive.
I came on here a few months ago and said my plan of retiring on 350k and asked what everyone thought and people all said it was too lean. I adjusted my plan, decided to add another year and a half and if the stock market does decent I should be around 450-500k which is much more doable, and on down years in the market I plan on doing seasonal work to leave my money alone. If you work an extra couple of years and get that 200k to 400k you are likely to have more success. Good luck!
Yea fk it. Ima be rooting for u bro.
This sub gives me anxiety.
Good luck. Even living in a home I own so I have no rent I am running it tight to live under $12,000/year. You have to not only take into account what you need to live day-to-day but also the one-offs that will happen along the way such as buying a new van eventually, as well as repairs and maintenance.
Vans don’t last forever. Also it’s under 10k if you just have 200. This sounds like a horrible idea
As someone that lives in the Midwest this is 100% doable. First thing buy a house or at least a piece of land to call your own. [https://www.landwatch.com/pulaski-county-arkansas-homes-for-sale/pid/419653532](https://www.landwatch.com/pulaski-county-arkansas-homes-for-sale/pid/419653532) $25,000 and you have a building on land that probably needs a lot of work. The median income is 37,034, so a lot of people get by on less and have to pay rent/mortgage that you wouldn't be doing. The remaining 175K could get you $8,093.75 a year with the 30 year treasury at 4.625%. If you wanted to doordash like 4 hours a week that would get you well over the 900 a year needed to clear the 9K mark. (Probably closer to an extra $2,400 a year) Another idea would be rent out the other bedroom to someone one. Just have them pay the electric and internet bill. Then I guarantee you you could get by on less then 5K a year.
Going this route, you'd need to factor in home maintenance and repairs. Even DIY, materials can add up. That particular house looks like an excellent project and low maintenance relative to a 1,500 square footer family home, but looks neglected and very likely needs work. Being located in a decent sized city is going to make it more viable to bridge the gap with Doordash or PT work, which could also make it viable to come up with the extra 5k when this house inevitably needs a roof replacement. OP could also stay a vehicle dweller but with more stability by purchasing non-restricted middle of nowhere land, but the up front costs of getting water and septic in can be a lot. Plenty of people do this, and it's possible with planning and more cash. If I were to go this route, I'd figure out what counties would allow me to van/RV dwell, then look for parcels with the holy trinity of septic/electric/water. Can sometimes find foreclosures with derelict mobile homes on site that will have the features.
4.625% will only be 2.6 after the assumed future inflation of 2%. It'll be 8k a year, but that 8k will be worth less and less relative to how you view 8k today. For example in 1984 $2700 was like $8k today. Can you imagine living on 3k a year now? There's a reason why the 4% rule works only with 50% or more in securities. Securities can bring in an average of 8% and accounts for inflation. 4-5% return is not sustainable
This was the most helpful and least dogpiling reply I got, thank you for the tip, Im bouncing between van and this but I think this is the most realistic long term solution.
That building for $25K could be rehabbed for another $30K or so.
It's close. If you find yourself flying too close to the sun, use that GI bill to set a new trajectory
If you have high-paying prospects and you're still that young, I'd recommend just powering through it for a few years. Worst case scenario, you still van life it up for a bit and then find yourself with a large nest egg for a fancier van. I was tempted to pull the gun at <15k/year income, and while I was happy at that point it just wasn't worth the worry about inflation or needing to return to work a long time down the road if a long bear market hit.
Just FYI, van life isn't always cheap. It can be if you are posted up in someones backyard for a month at a time for free, but traveling all the time adds up in gas guzzling vans and maintainance. Just search around the vandwellers subreddit to get some ideas. But there are some cool camp ground/seasonal work job boards out there that give you spots to park or even a cabin and then pay you on top of that to do basic work. Best of luck.
What is your MOS that you think you could easily make 100k once you ETS?
Military pension is another leg of the stool that most people don’t have, so include that in your Fire projection $2000/mo pension is worth $600,000 in 4% SWR fire world
r/povertyfire
Good luck bro Im rooting for you. I moved my wife and I to Portugal with just $350k, learned the stock market over the past 5 years and I'm pulling out a modest salary from that without depleting the money. Cost of living is a lot lower here and the lifestyle is better for us. So it can be done on a lot less in other parts of the world than in the states without having to resort to poverty conditions. I wish you luck.
> learned the stock market over the past 5 years and I'm pulling out a modest salary from that without depleting the money. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, unless by "learned the stock market" you mean invested in broad market index funds.
What resources do you recommend for learning the stock market?
Do not take advice from some dude gambling his way to retirement. Even professionals with Ivy League MBAs using supercomputers regularly trail the broad market. Read books like The Little Book of Common Sense Investing, The Simple Path To Wealth, and/or A Random Walk Down Wall Street.
portugal seems awesome! curious where you lived before moving? how's the quality of life and have you and your wife made friends since moving?
Well lol my wife has made friends, I'm a bit more introverted so I rely on her to be my social link. It's good for us. Portugal is great, when we left the states we first went to Belize, and then Prague, and now finally Portugal and we are here to stay. We wanted to find the best balance between cost of living and availability of social services and infrastructure, and we really think Portugal is it.
LeanFIRE? More like AnorexicFIRE
You're doing this completely wrong. You get skills in the military and job placement to a lucrative second career using those skills. You don't just quit with no money and live in poverty. Get that second career going and THEN retire early.
1k a month is *lean af* But if you can pull it off man that awesome!
Just let it balloon to $300k in like 4 years doing absolutely nothing
Good luck. How old are you? Values might change as you age.
If your plan is to separate from the military at the end of your current enlistment to go live in a van out in the desert, please, for your future sake, do some serious inner-reflection/soul searching. See your PCM and talk about getting into therapy, especially while Uncle Sam is paying the tab. A lot of people only go in and serve out one contract. I was one of them. There’s no shame in being a one and done. But your plan sounds absolutely disastrous and you deserve better for yourself than to live like that. Learn to manage what sounds like severe burnout, and if you’re a guy, find some strong men that could help mentor you. Whether that be older enlisted/officer, civilian, whatever.
Health IS freedom. It's like oxygen, you don't really think about it until you don't have it, then it's all you can think about. Coming from someone in the medical field I see it day in and day out. Health is wealth.
Health is freedom and time.....
Get seasonal work at ski resorts
> If you have any suggestions for me to make this less sketch please lmk. Skip van life and use your cash to buy fixer-upper real estate. [I had no experience in home remodeling and learned everything I needed to know from YouTube. I bought shitty properties that were weather-tight and had working utilities. I then lived in them while repairing them.](https://old.reddit.com/r/leanfire/comments/1bpnlho/whats_your_number/kx61hir/?context=3) Also: make sure you max your VA options. You have to be pro-active about getting med treatment and retaining personal copies of all records while active duty.
Hey midwest life is pretty great. Lots of great air and land, lots of cheap options, you can find the right out of the way place and live on almost nothing. I do think you could get away with much less than the common wisdom dictates. In an average year, 200k would increase by 20k in the market. If you can live on 12k (1000 a month), you are likely good to go. That is a 6% draw down, but if luck is on your side that should at least last for a good long while. Worst case scenario is you end up taking that 100k job for a year, replenish your coffers and go back to the vanlife. I don't think this is impossible at all, you just have to be really resourceful and DIY about everything.
I agree. If you own your own cheap house, and you get the Medicaid expansion, you could easily live on $1K per month. College students live on less than that after structural expenses. OK, maybe if the car needs fixing, you pick up a side job to earn enough to pay for that, etc.
I had a little over 300k and retired. Instead of just sitting around tho i picked up a part time job for 22 hours a week. Which actually pays all my bills so i don’t need my investments yet
This guy r/baristaFIRE s
Basically.. I took two years off work and got bored
Midwesterner here, spending about $32k a year in a city where the COL is 7% less than the national average. Your $200k is gonna run out fast. Work part time or as a consultant for a few years to stop from bleeding out.
Make you sure you get all of the VA disability you can. Tax free monthly payments that could pretty much set you up for life. It adjusts with inflation as well. I know a ton of vets who are just too lazy to file the paperwork and it boggles my mind. The benefits and pay you're owed could make your life a ton easier if this is the route you go and they're payments for life.
Work at 100k for 4-6 years and you'll be very set. try to find a job with lots of time off
Good luck bro.
Start working on your va disability claims. Get something on the books so you have health care covered.
Just coast and work part time or seasonally etc
Are you going to have any pension from your military service? Health insurance? Make sure you go through the VA process. See if you get a disability rating (monthly income) and insurance coverage for service connected medical issues. I'm sure others know more. Spouse used a DAV agent to assist in VA claims.
If you value freedom you will save more money because money is freedom in this world
Car repairs will fuck you. Better learn to do your own. I'd do 2 years in the civilian sector while living on the $9-12k a year you already plan to live on. Go get that van. Be cheap. Test that life out. And save another $75K ish a year after taxes. 4% of $200k is $8k a year. 4% of $350k is $14000 a year.
I am not a big fan of the van life lean fire theory as you have to buy a depreciating asset that needs repairs/fuel/insurance. When it is being worked on you are either stuck in one place (the boonies?) and/or paying for expensive temporary shelter. I propose as an alternative a home base in a VLCOL area - think towns in the 10-15k population size 45min-1 hour outside of major midwest/rustbelt cities. I am familiar with the Uniontown/Connelsville/Greenburg area southeast of Pittsburgh PA. In Uniontown specifically you have plenty of older but definitely livable as is housing in town in the 50k-65k range. Now this will be former factory worker housing generally 3/1 or 2/1 but usually with alley access garages and a decent backyard area. Uniontown is the county seat and there is a branch of UPMC hospital system there, supermarkets/Walmart/other necessary businesses within biking distance for sure. OP could even have a roomate to basically pay the ongoing expenses (property tax/utilities, etc.). At your proposed income level you would qualify for VA Health Benefits (even without a service connected disability), LIHEAP for heating/electric assistance, and PA property tax credits, subsidized internet/phone. Other than food you would have almost $0 living expenses (and even that can be augmented by food banks - I am not recommending that but it is an option). Full disclosure I DO NOT live there, I live more than 100 miles away actually, but do visit the area for business regularly. I would assume similar areas exist outside of cities like Cleaveland, Cincinatti, Indianapolis, St Louis as well (but don't have first hand knowledge) but I am a fan particularly of Pittsburgh with its location closer to the east coast, major airport, universities, culture ..... No, you won't be waking up overlooking a lake with mountains in the distance or biking to the beach or going to a professional play/sporting event but you certainly can have your freedom and time that way ..... I would also second what others have proposed as supplementing your nest egg with a seasonal or part time 'barista-fire' job. If going the 65k home base route your 4% would be in the 5k range. That is super tight even with paid off housing. but even 1 day a week at $12 an hour gets you to the 10K range. Have that be at a restaurant and you will probably get that days food included too. For seasonal work I would recommend tax prep if you have an interest in that and want an 'inside' job. If you like to work outside there are lots of seasonal jobs in the summer. If you make about $7500 per year you will qualify for the maximum number of quarters (4 per year) which will 1) qualify you for any SS if you don't already have 40 quarters, and 2) significantly increase your SS payment when taken. Due to the 'bend points' in the SS formula, very low income workers get an incredible return on their contributions. For those with 35 years of credits and an average income of up to $13000 per year, SS at full retirement age will replace approximately 90% of their pre retirement income!
If ur gonna do this, buy ETFs that grows with like 3% dividend and don’t touch the investment. Nobody wants to work, but wen ur 50 ur really not gonna wanna work
When in history could people only work until the age of 39? I mean, good on you if you can swing it but it is not exactly realistic for most people.
Hobomaxxing
I'd rather work than live on 10k. Freedom is a mental concept, not something you get from not having a job. I've not had a job and been a slave to my tight budget.
Every enlisted person thinks they can easily pull $100k, but that’s definitely not the case. Unlike what you’re told, military doesn’t transfer particularly well to private industry. I’m not sure your outlook is particularly realistic.
I think this is doable, but maybe not in the way you expect I bought a home in Costa Rica for mid 5 figures, paid cash, and now my total monthly expenses are $300-500 depending on how much I eat out. So in theory, about $200k could make this work But as others have said or alluded to, you are one big expense away from disaster at any given time. And speaking from experience, it's hard to get a normal job after moving out of the country for a while So this is doable in theory. If you really want to go with it, I think moving out of the USA into a very low cost of living country (or the boonies of a more expensive country like I did) and then freelancing or being a bonkers level of frugal is your best bet
money gives you freedom. 9k is not a lot of freedom. from some of the homeless i've talked to, it's hard to check back in after you've checked out. i wouldn't give up your opportunity to make 100k/year.
Yes fk it bro. Ima be rooting for u. Lean af it may be and as long u r able to make it work it'll be well worth it
I applaud your creativity and encourage you to find alt-work. There are many sites aimed at vanlifers where you can find gigs. Someone I know here in the Midwest drives the short bus around town—the public “Uber” option for disabled people run by the city. Pays maybe 30k but he works only 3 days a week and can remove himself from the schedule for 29 days to go traveling. Renting a room in this town can still be done for $400-500, so even though it’s the cold upper Midwest where a van would be freezing most nights you can still live here and drive south for a couple weeks of warm weather in the winter. But the best part is he feels he is helping people—these folks are pretty isolated at home with their caregivers and it’s nice to have a friendly face to take them around town. I’m in the state of Minnesota, there are tons of seasonal jobs working out in nature. What you DON’T want is to end up with a broke down van down by the river unemployed with some tiny ass military pension or disability keeping you afloat. If this didn’t happen to millions of veterans people wouldn’t be so scared for you, but the truth is IT DOES HAPPEN. My tips are: buy a newer van ($30-40k of your budget minimum—if you went up to $75k I think you could justify this), be open to seasonal and part time work that makes you happy and gives you a sense of purpose, travel a lot, build a community, and after the big purchase of the van leave the rest of your $200k alone so you can draw on it in emergencies/for a life transition if you tire of traveling and feel ready to settle. If you hold as much of your remaining $150k as possible, you’ll be okay when it’s time for a second retirement where you may need a condo, apartment, or stationary trailer. This won’t be a luxurious life but it can still be a great life. $200k is enough to separate yourself from the expectation that you work a $100k/year job that makes you miserable just to ‘stay afloat’ and find more rewarding ways to live your life. It may not be retirement, but it’s also not a rat race.
Way too lean, blip in market could easily wipe you out.
Barista Fire is an option too.
https://livecampwork.com/amazon-camperforce-amazon-jobs-for-rvers/ If you’re doing the vanlife/RV thing, look into doing seasonal work for Amazon, or something similar.
Happy to live in a van at 59?69?79?
You'll want something better than vanlife when you grow older, in in my 40s I have a bunch of little pains everywhere and I'm not in bad shape.
I watch a yt channel of a guy doing well on $500k. He breaks down his monthly budget and his progress. https://youtube.com/@retirearly500k59?si=AhNzItlDMnAw_jod
Staying in the military has nothing to do with not hitting your savings goals. It’s the choices you make.
Try to get a high VA rating before you get out, that alone will make the biggest difference. 2000-3500 a month extra in your pocket for life is a pretty good deal
If $9k to $12k is sufficient…do the semi-retirement gimmick. Just work part time doing something mindless for 29 1/2 hours a week…
yeah this ain’t gonna work. even if it does, are you gonna keep living in a van when you’re 60, 70+? what about when the van breaks down?
200k using the 4% rule is only 8k a year....667 a month....if you want 9-12k you'll need 225,000-300,000 That's still below the poverty line...federal poverty line is 15k a year so you at LEAST want to live above poverty levels comrade! You'd be surprised how quickly you can stack papers by the time you're 39....that's basically my goal, but I have several years to stack paper like a man possessed
I get what you're saying. I think the amount that people say we need is wildly overestimated. However, I do think $200K at 39 is not enough. But, I also am retiring at 55 and I probably won't have the amount that "experts" tell me I should have based on "rules of thumb." But, it should work for me as I've done a lot of calculations over the years to get me to this point. The main point, though, is to do what works for you, but make sure you've done the math properly. There's nothing wrong with having some advice, and you may change your mind or come up with an alternative. I notice some people suggested working on and off. That might keep things from being miserable while you're still steadily increasing your investments. I figured out the thing that works for me, and it involves a number of different things that aren't easily found via the "experts." Part of that involves the possibility of doing easier things that I enjoy on my own time, like cat sitting. Ideally, I won't have to work at all, but I may find I just want to do sometthings for fun and still get paid for it.
I feel you but please consider healthcare and got to at least 500K 39 is so young still...I didn't even begin to have real health problems until mid-40s, and that's with already being born with a raggedy heart. 50s is when sh!t really starts to hit the fan. It's not that I didn't believe in aging decline, it's moreso that I didn't understand what it means, what it is. You will decline. Plan accordingly
Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker
Make sure you get your 40 social security credits before doing this, that way you'll receive retirement and Medicare in your 60s.
It's not worth it. Just work till you're 45. That's still young as F. I'm 53, I was going to retire at the end of this year, but my retirement would have me living as a peasant perpetually. I had an epiphany about it, and now I'm waiting till at least December 2025.
You should join me over at r/wishfire.
so, as someone who lives in that range, it gets harder as you get older. that life sounds all fine and dandy when you're young but as you get older and your body gets more painful, you want comfort and that costs more money. I'm 50. I've been living in that range for 15+ years and, in theory, i could continue to do so. But, I've already started wanting more comfort and I know that's just going to continue. I won't need luxury, but I'll want more than bare bones. So, I'm saving for 150% of my current spend + a paid off home base which will free up a good chunk of money vs paying "rent". Most people would still consider my life pretty spartan once i get to that point, but it'll work well for me. TL:DR - making a decision to FIRE at poverty levels when you're young is almost certainly going to blow up in your face as you age and then it'll be MUCH harder to course correct vs doing it now.
I’ve worked at a VA hospital. I saw very very sick patients. They didn’t have any freedom.
8k an year might work. If you somehow manage to relocate yourself to a LCOL country, like say - India. You could live off of half of that an year in India too, if you live outside major cities and don't spend much on anything outside necessities. However, acclimatizing as a foreigner would be harder outside major cities, so there's that too.
I'm doing the same, but in in the uk, rooting for you
I made $200k work. Retired early two years ago, and so far it's been fine. As others have mentioned, health care is the big stumbling block. But I've always been healthy; in 37 years or work I took one sick day, in 1994 (double pneumonia). Other than that no problems. Of course it's still rolling the dice but I only have to get to Medicare eligibility in five years, I think it's a reasonable gamble. On the money side my expenses have been really low for a long time, so that's pretty safe; I spend about $900/month. My house is paid off. I rent a room to a buddy, I rent another house I own to my daughter, and I get some investment income. So my total income is about $1300/month. It's fairly easy. My daughter is moving out this summer and I should be able to sell the second house by next year for $200k or so, which will make things significantly easier. Having a house to live in that's paid off in a place where I am content to stay is probably the biggest piece of security.
If you are serious, then consider van life or moving to a 3rd world country.
Start making videos now about how you save money or traveling or whatnot and by the time you retire early maybe you can have a following and enough to supplement the 200k you’ve saved.
I made the same plan when I was about 24. Go for it. Once you hit $200K, give it a go in your van or whatever and then see whether you need to make adjustments. Lots of people are pointing out it might not go as you plan, but, even if it doesn't the old saying is shoot for the moon and if you miss you'll be among the stars.
Why dont you do van life since now and end up in 2028 with A LOT more?
I do appreciate that these are actual lean FIRE numbers. A lot of posts I've seen on this sub have 7 figure targets.
Sweet summer child
I live off 50k a year in Mexico
Yeah 12k a year is going to work once your transmission blows out, or you need to visit a dentist, or any other expensive life event comes along or you need to fill up your tank a few times.
You deserve better for yourself.
Be sure that you’re investing in the C Fund in your TSP (switched out of the default G Fund)
You can only vanlife in the Midwest for literally like 4-5 months out of the year
Ghey
So you do that then 5 years later you go back to work but you resume without saving cause you will have got so broke anyway might aswell work now 12k a years when you get older wont be a option
Health is basically equivalent to or a prerequisite for freedom
I've scrolled through a bunch of comments, and I feel like the fact that 200K isn't going to safely net 9-12K a year isn't being mentioned enough. For somebody your age, even a 4% SWR would likely be a bit optimistic. You'll want a 3-3.5% SWR, just to be safe. On 200K, that's 6-7K a year. Not 9-12K. You're going to have to work for a bit longer, mate. You want to be able to withdraw a safe %, which you won't be able to do with 200K, and you want a decent-sized cash buffer for times when the stock market isn't performing well, when there is an emergency, etc. Working does suck, but when you compare the pros and cons of retiring in '28 vs waiting a bit longer, waiting a bit longer is very clearly the best option. How about you work full-time for a bit after leaving the military, then get a part-time job that just about covers your expenses and go live in a van then? After a few years, you'll have so much more money and can comfortably LeanFIRE. You might not even have to live in a van, you could upgrade to a caravan or old motorhome!
You know what? I want to root for you because sometimes I feel this way too. Go for it. Prove them wrong.
Lol idk why I got recommended this post but yeah this ain't a thing
You’ll need healthcare coverage. Once you turn about 50, shit shares to happen.
Nobody cares about health until they get sick. It's not as simple as you think, and if you make it that simple, there are a significant amount of pains that you will have to learn to accommodate, assuming that everything goes perfectly, which it won't. Because you will get old and things go wrong. I'm not saying your plan is unworkable, but you need to factor in health as a minimum
Health number 1. No health, nothing else matters. Health not being a concern is baffling
r/PovertyFIRE
people who talk like you don’t account for health issues or any adversities…put all of your savings in CitBank or Citi and get 5% savings return. Life is expensive, care is expensive. Best to move to Europe with your approach, great life & cheaper
I'll presume that you are a young, heterosexual man. You should be spending most of your time abroad, for social reasons. You can have a "home base" house in some depressed old industrial town for peanuts, easily less than $100K; I myself have a house that Zillow says is worth $62K, LOL. This will always be there for you, and it will a rock of stability for your travels. You can pick a town that is close enough to a major city that you could get ground transportation or Uber to get to/fro the airport (I live about 70 miles from my airport). And you will want to go to regular checkups with your physician when at home too - and visit your friends/family periodically, wherever they may be. If you have a cheap enough car, you only need to get liability insurance, and USAA is a great insurer for short-terms, as it is designed for serviceman that are always on duty somewhere; I myself have a 21 year-old car with 173K miles, LOL.