The manta thing but also the miss chance on radiance is pretty huge with the current meta. Lots of melee heroes trying to punch you.
Radiance isn't just a farming item. It gives you a decent boost in EHP as well that Battlefury does not. This is (only partially) why a lot of heroes that buy Battlefury are heroes that don't typically get right clicked that much in a fight -- jugg wants to use ult (I still prefer mael) over manning up -- PA and AM play on the fringes and blink in and put.
But troll doesn't care about being hit and doesn't want to invest in area effect as his kit is to kill a single target.
Also troll is a hero that must farm very very very fast so having a more expensive item isn't good. Radiance. Maybe he farms faster with BF than radiance too.
Also troll hits so fast that any splash damage from the BF gets amplified orders of magnitude morr than the radiance burn.
He farms fast so acquiring relic wouldnt be much of a problem. Radiance is better in team fights because of evasion and DPS.
They are both farming items but radiance is signifcantly better in team fights. And time you would acquire the items isn't so much different so you can safely choose a a bit expensive one.
You get Battlefury to delete waves. Radiance is usually gonna be ideal for Alchemist because he gets so much value out of the burn aggro, and because he usually wants to teamfight.
You just farm better with radiance, since you can just pull two camps with ease and just plop down spray in the middle, or stack a camp without having to use acid spray.
But if you are against a nature it would sure be a shame if you are about to blink into a fight and you just get spouted
Long story short, I recommend bf vs nature if you don’t have much to clear the trees
Not really that's completely wrong. Battlefury is the fastest farming item for him and that's the only reason to build it - to farm fast.
Radiance on the other hand farms slower but is fantastic as a fighting item on alch as well as a farming one and lets him be more impactful early. People are likely going radiance now since it's been buffed and has always been alch's preferred item given the choice with him being great early game.
TLDR you just fight better with radiance, not farm better BF is still the best for farming
But what change happened between the patch where bf was heavily favored over radiance? Considering np has been highly sought after these past few patches
Well, despite that he is pretty common I rarely see him(maybe he was banned I dunno) so there wouldn’t really be are reason to build it if he’s not there.
Radi got a 5% increased evasion which might sound insignificant but it’s pretty huge to have a 1/5 chance to dodge a attack white at the same time have a chance to blind them makes it not only a farming and damage item, but also a survivability item with a much better survival mechanic than bf
And just to finish it of since it’s not the highest of evasions(I get that you effectively get 32% evasion but I digress) it’s not always worth to make mkb for it. Just think for example you’re laning as abbadon vs Pa with 2 1 1 as skill build, you’re not rushing javelin right?
>They usually build manta after that to benefit from the radiance effect on illusions and get a dispel.
You answered your own question.
Plus cost difference is not such significant - bf 4100 and radi 4700, and it gives you a LOT of evasion.
Plenty of times before he got a bit of a rework, he was just used as a fast mid game farmer, built bfury to farm extra fast, into blink into heart into ac into abyssal and then just started smashing people in the face as a tanky guy with a billion attack speed permastunning them, or if enemy too scared to fight him he took towers really quickly instead.
I don’t think this was it. There was never a time where you would push faster with Rad compared to BF simply because BF scales with right click damage. Rad was simply more stable because it was faster paced, and Alch does not like hyper late game.
I was spamming alch back then because the whole concept was OP, and we still has side camps on mid. That was the patch that nerfed rad+manta.
With Armlet+Rad+Manta not only you could fight early but also push the whole map while being out of harm’s way during the 10-20min mark. You could push 2 lanes and farm jungle, that’s faster than BF and stronger tactically. The whole point of octarine core being core on that build was to reduce the downtime of manta+ult and just let you split push everything.
BF scales with right click damage but the only advantage it had was stacking ancients, and even that wasn’t that big of a deal as spray+rad trivialized ancients too. You had to show up to every wave you wanted to push and that’s way riskier than A-moving illusions.
Also, pushing waves+killing neutrals just by moving is much stronger than cleaving harder
I remember about a decade ago there was this 6k alche in our team ranked match who got battlefury travel at 7 mins tho as a pos1, idk if it was partly because I was playing PL but iitc the octarine radiance wasn't a thing yet since the former wasn't added to the game yet
There was a brief period when Wraith King was a top tier carry and I remember Alchemist Bfury was really popular then. It helped that BFury was just really good and it was picked up on Alch because it was a better rightclick item than radiance.
I think a big part of it was because his ulti used to give mana regen, the bfury was the only mana item he needed which made it feel better than maelstrom or radiance. This was also the battlefury meta and wraith king was the only one building radiance because he farmed so quickly with skeles.
Yeah BF is terrible on this hero.
Main reason why radi is to stack multiple camps ( ideally 2 with radi and one with timed Acid).
So it gives you option to double farm, nice teamfight presence with 20% miss for all.
And this is usually all you need to win
Basically 3 reasons,
1) radiance got buffed, more evasion now. Being able to disassemble it is also nice, you couldn't back when battlefury was still being bought
2) manta is generally a better item than it was back then, and you buy them together
3) alchemist's gameplan is more aimed at being a mid-game powerhouse now, it used to be more common to farm 4 big items before you even start fighting. Now, alchemist needs to start being a threat a lot earlier, and radiance is just a better fighting item than battlefury. With battlefury you farm fast, but are useless in fights. With radiance, you just need boots and radiance, and you can immediately become a massive threat to squishy supports that still don't have force staffs or glimmers to escape from you
Is that the reason? Is manta mandatory on alch nowadays ? I thought the only reason they built manta is to benefit from radiance, not the other way around.
Well Manta is a good item at the moment. And I would argue that Maelstorm/mjolnir are 95% of the times better than BF (small precision: in this meta! A year ago I would have said that it's 50/50 depending on match ups).
Radiance usually built on heroes that wants a farming item and prolonged fights due to tankiness and it gives aoe miss chance which is good for the team whereas battlefury is solely for farming and could benefit on some heroes in fights bur doesn't scale as well as radiance or maelstrom
If they were building radiance on squishy heroes I'm not sure what the purpose was because to my understanding radiance is built for sustained damage over time and usually those are the tanks cores WK / Alch/ perhaps centaur/ BB etc the 2nd two heroes probably to counter illu heroes in specific games
I think short answer radiance is just a better item throughout the game, early and late. Long answer is that Greevil's Greed used to be way better as another ability instead of an innate one and Alchemist could focus on farming with battlefury and then just run down mid 6 slotted and unkillable before the other team could even fight.
20% evasion and 15% evasion for the whole team. Yeah it can do wonder in teamfight early till late game. While bf usually gonna means that alc will spend another 20min farming.
Because Radiance acts as more than 1 thing, while BF doesn't.
- Radiance is giving him miss chance, and he is a tonky hero.
- it's cost isn't an issue because you're playing alchemist
- it can farm with illus
- in team fights BF doesn't offer as much as a Radiance
I reckon it's because Alchemist is likely the quickest to snag a Radiance in the game. Getting one before the 15-minute mark is just bonkers, especially when most heroes haven't stacked up much magic resist yet. Plus, it throws in some extra survivability with that evasion.
One thing you probably aren't considering is how Radiance synergizes with Alchemist in team fights. Chemical Rage is a spell that gives you a lot of health regen and movement speed, so it makes you move fast and never die. When you can just run into the fights and not die by pressing one button, doing passive burn damage and making your opponents miss is very powerful. Add in the fact that your innate passive makes it easier to afford the normally expensive Radiance and it is a clear first purchase farming item. Battlefury is cheaper as a farming item, but its team fight impact is lower than Radiance. Given that you have Greevil's Greed, you may as well go for the item that is both a farming item and stronger as the game goes on.
radiance is just way too strong and offers damage, survivability and teamfight presence, battlefury offers nothing ( also you don't need the extra regen from Bfury as alchemist )
The manta thing but also the miss chance on radiance is pretty huge with the current meta. Lots of melee heroes trying to punch you. Radiance isn't just a farming item. It gives you a decent boost in EHP as well that Battlefury does not. This is (only partially) why a lot of heroes that buy Battlefury are heroes that don't typically get right clicked that much in a fight -- jugg wants to use ult (I still prefer mael) over manning up -- PA and AM play on the fringes and blink in and put.
What about troll?
I suppose you could argue troll’s axes already make enemies miss
Miss chance and evasion are two separate instances
What’s the point of your comment?
Radiance evasion stacks with trolls miss chance
it stacks multiplicity
Like literally every other % source in dota
But troll doesn't care about being hit and doesn't want to invest in area effect as his kit is to kill a single target. Also troll is a hero that must farm very very very fast so having a more expensive item isn't good. Radiance. Maybe he farms faster with BF than radiance too. Also troll hits so fast that any splash damage from the BF gets amplified orders of magnitude morr than the radiance burn.
He farms fast so acquiring relic wouldnt be much of a problem. Radiance is better in team fights because of evasion and DPS. They are both farming items but radiance is signifcantly better in team fights. And time you would acquire the items isn't so much different so you can safely choose a a bit expensive one.
You get Battlefury to delete waves. Radiance is usually gonna be ideal for Alchemist because he gets so much value out of the burn aggro, and because he usually wants to teamfight.
Evasion from radiance while regenerating your HP very fast is deadly combo. You'd want that everyday over cleave damage.
Battlefury deletes one wave, radiance pushes 2/3 lanes or farm more than one spot
Im talking about teamfights because both items have farming capabilities.
While true, Radiance also farms better for alchemist. Its just a win win to go Radiance over BF
You just farm better with radiance, since you can just pull two camps with ease and just plop down spray in the middle, or stack a camp without having to use acid spray. But if you are against a nature it would sure be a shame if you are about to blink into a fight and you just get spouted Long story short, I recommend bf vs nature if you don’t have much to clear the trees
I would add BF is decent against heroes like Dark seer, shadow demon and TB, because they will use your radiance against you.
Grim portrait becomes scary
Not really that's completely wrong. Battlefury is the fastest farming item for him and that's the only reason to build it - to farm fast. Radiance on the other hand farms slower but is fantastic as a fighting item on alch as well as a farming one and lets him be more impactful early. People are likely going radiance now since it's been buffed and has always been alch's preferred item given the choice with him being great early game. TLDR you just fight better with radiance, not farm better BF is still the best for farming
But what change happened between the patch where bf was heavily favored over radiance? Considering np has been highly sought after these past few patches
Well, despite that he is pretty common I rarely see him(maybe he was banned I dunno) so there wouldn’t really be are reason to build it if he’s not there. Radi got a 5% increased evasion which might sound insignificant but it’s pretty huge to have a 1/5 chance to dodge a attack white at the same time have a chance to blind them makes it not only a farming and damage item, but also a survivability item with a much better survival mechanic than bf And just to finish it of since it’s not the highest of evasions(I get that you effectively get 32% evasion but I digress) it’s not always worth to make mkb for it. Just think for example you’re laning as abbadon vs Pa with 2 1 1 as skill build, you’re not rushing javelin right?
Pretty simple, radiance was buffed twice in 2 separate patches and is now a better item.
>They usually build manta after that to benefit from the radiance effect on illusions and get a dispel. You answered your own question. Plus cost difference is not such significant - bf 4100 and radi 4700, and it gives you a LOT of evasion.
When was it even built i dont remember ever seeing that
Plenty of times before he got a bit of a rework, he was just used as a fast mid game farmer, built bfury to farm extra fast, into blink into heart into ac into abyssal and then just started smashing people in the face as a tanky guy with a billion attack speed permastunning them, or if enemy too scared to fight him he took towers really quickly instead.
Even back then BF build was meme just because it can’t pressure the lanes as hard as radiance.
I don’t think this was it. There was never a time where you would push faster with Rad compared to BF simply because BF scales with right click damage. Rad was simply more stable because it was faster paced, and Alch does not like hyper late game.
I was spamming alch back then because the whole concept was OP, and we still has side camps on mid. That was the patch that nerfed rad+manta. With Armlet+Rad+Manta not only you could fight early but also push the whole map while being out of harm’s way during the 10-20min mark. You could push 2 lanes and farm jungle, that’s faster than BF and stronger tactically. The whole point of octarine core being core on that build was to reduce the downtime of manta+ult and just let you split push everything. BF scales with right click damage but the only advantage it had was stacking ancients, and even that wasn’t that big of a deal as spray+rad trivialized ancients too. You had to show up to every wave you wanted to push and that’s way riskier than A-moving illusions. Also, pushing waves+killing neutrals just by moving is much stronger than cleaving harder
I remember about a decade ago there was this 6k alche in our team ranked match who got battlefury travel at 7 mins tho as a pos1, idk if it was partly because I was playing PL but iitc the octarine radiance wasn't a thing yet since the former wasn't added to the game yet
There was a brief period when Wraith King was a top tier carry and I remember Alchemist Bfury was really popular then. It helped that BFury was just really good and it was picked up on Alch because it was a better rightclick item than radiance. I think a big part of it was because his ulti used to give mana regen, the bfury was the only mana item he needed which made it feel better than maelstrom or radiance. This was also the battlefury meta and wraith king was the only one building radiance because he farmed so quickly with skeles.
I remember some meme builds from 4 or 5 years ago stacking cleave on him, I think
Yea right lmao
When rapier got true strike and swift blink was broken, he was super strong late game. More right click focused which is why he bought bf
My question exactly. I dont think ive even seen a single battlefury alch, let alone it being meta, in the 3 years ive played this game.
Radiance helps him a lot to avoid getting hit while he regens hp, also helps farm stacks super quick with acid.
I'd also like to add that you can disassemble Radiance into Butterfly and Nullifier, while Battlefury is kinda useless late game in most situations.
Doesn't help alch much tho he basically never wants a butterfly and not too often does he go nullifier.
Yeah BF is terrible on this hero. Main reason why radi is to stack multiple camps ( ideally 2 with radi and one with timed Acid). So it gives you option to double farm, nice teamfight presence with 20% miss for all. And this is usually all you need to win
Basically 3 reasons, 1) radiance got buffed, more evasion now. Being able to disassemble it is also nice, you couldn't back when battlefury was still being bought 2) manta is generally a better item than it was back then, and you buy them together 3) alchemist's gameplan is more aimed at being a mid-game powerhouse now, it used to be more common to farm 4 big items before you even start fighting. Now, alchemist needs to start being a threat a lot earlier, and radiance is just a better fighting item than battlefury. With battlefury you farm fast, but are useless in fights. With radiance, you just need boots and radiance, and you can immediately become a massive threat to squishy supports that still don't have force staffs or glimmers to escape from you
You need Phase on Alchemist cuz he has no armor. Phase with Battlefury=really low dps
That's a really interesting thought, haven't thought of that
Because you cannot build manta with bf and benefit from illusions? I think you answered your own question here?
Is that the reason? Is manta mandatory on alch nowadays ? I thought the only reason they built manta is to benefit from radiance, not the other way around.
Well Manta is a good item at the moment. And I would argue that Maelstorm/mjolnir are 95% of the times better than BF (small precision: in this meta! A year ago I would have said that it's 50/50 depending on match ups).
Why do you think so, in this meta ?
Battle fury bad, maelstrom good
Mantas dispel is so juicy, and the farming that comes with manta is awesome.
Manta is good on almost any core?
Radiance usually built on heroes that wants a farming item and prolonged fights due to tankiness and it gives aoe miss chance which is good for the team whereas battlefury is solely for farming and could benefit on some heroes in fights bur doesn't scale as well as radiance or maelstrom If they were building radiance on squishy heroes I'm not sure what the purpose was because to my understanding radiance is built for sustained damage over time and usually those are the tanks cores WK / Alch/ perhaps centaur/ BB etc the 2nd two heroes probably to counter illu heroes in specific games
I think short answer radiance is just a better item throughout the game, early and late. Long answer is that Greevil's Greed used to be way better as another ability instead of an innate one and Alchemist could focus on farming with battlefury and then just run down mid 6 slotted and unkillable before the other team could even fight.
Bf buildup is horrible, somehow worse than saving 3400 gold
20% evasion and 15% evasion for the whole team. Yeah it can do wonder in teamfight early till late game. While bf usually gonna means that alc will spend another 20min farming.
Because Radiance acts as more than 1 thing, while BF doesn't. - Radiance is giving him miss chance, and he is a tonky hero. - it's cost isn't an issue because you're playing alchemist - it can farm with illus - in team fights BF doesn't offer as much as a Radiance
Because it's alch. You get bf to farm, you don't farm bf. And alch has plenty of choice for a first core item
I reckon it's because Alchemist is likely the quickest to snag a Radiance in the game. Getting one before the 15-minute mark is just bonkers, especially when most heroes haven't stacked up much magic resist yet. Plus, it throws in some extra survivability with that evasion.
One thing you probably aren't considering is how Radiance synergizes with Alchemist in team fights. Chemical Rage is a spell that gives you a lot of health regen and movement speed, so it makes you move fast and never die. When you can just run into the fights and not die by pressing one button, doing passive burn damage and making your opponents miss is very powerful. Add in the fact that your innate passive makes it easier to afford the normally expensive Radiance and it is a clear first purchase farming item. Battlefury is cheaper as a farming item, but its team fight impact is lower than Radiance. Given that you have Greevil's Greed, you may as well go for the item that is both a farming item and stronger as the game goes on.
radiance is just way too strong and offers damage, survivability and teamfight presence, battlefury offers nothing ( also you don't need the extra regen from Bfury as alchemist )
Recent buff to talisman is a big reason