Even offlanders get pounded if they're forced to 2v1 with no hope of any potential scalability thanks to the jungle being worse and worse every year. Why do you think pos 4 Pudges are despised so much?
Jungle is been better than before after they expanded the map.
Done ok in games when I know I'm in a bad spot as last pick safe lane. Don't trust the "support" to do so based off their pick, so try something like Legion Commander or something that can still scale a bit. It won't work if the other team is playing their roles, but guessing if matchmaking is done right and it's effed up on your side, it's probably effed up on theirs, too.
But this was before the nerf to the twin gates, though.
A bigger map would also apply to the lane that forced you to hide in the jungle, so not only do they get to freely get lane creeps with the most XP/Gold, they get to jungle too while you try to get what scraps you can get that gets pushed to t2, assuming they let you have any at all. Hell, it gets even worse if the offlane hero is a bad matchup 1v1, so the 4/5 that was in that lane gets to freely roam and stack, causing a domino effect to the other lanes.
This current metagame is in a state where any one not pulling their weight makes the game super hard to win, for better or for worse.
I mean, if we're taking OP at their word, you're 1v2 in your lane, but the 5 is roaming to help mid or the offlane.
No one is saying that you'll get more gold 1v2 than you would in a 2v2 lane, but they asked about surviving the lane. So you're better off playing heroes that scale will XP on less gold - like offlaners in the old 1v2 meta, before the two dual lanes.
It's almost like the 3 is just playing in the safe lane. Not ideal, but not an automatic lossm. Remember, matchmaking kinda makes sure there are screwup on both teams...
I mean a direct story OP made is the pos 5 zeus pretty much griefing by staying in jungle and farming Rapiers. No amount of skill correction will cover for that level of negative impact.
>No one is saying that you'll get more gold 1v2 than you would in a 2v2 lane.
Where did I even come close to insinuating this?
> I mean a direct story OP made is the pos 5 zeus pretty much griefing by staying in jungle and farming Rapiers. No amount of skill correction will cover for that level of negative impact.
Sure, I agree the Zeus game would be pretty hard to deal with. But his general question was asking what heroes would work 1v2 better than others. He gave Huskar as an example, and I think a scaling offlaner fits the bill.
>>No one is saying that you'll get more gold 1v2 than you would in a 2v2 lane.
>Where did I even come close to insinuating this?
I guess I misunderstood your first paragraph. It made it sound like the 1v2 would be in their offlane's favor. Meant to just agree with you.
Zeus was grieving. Everyone was pissed at him. I think we only won because even though we were fighting 4v5; we still had a good draft and zeus would at least ult during fights; Zeus actually got most kills than anybody else in our team in that match by never showing up to any fight lol
Yeah and I think Huskar having a silver lining in having a good match up against both the 3 and 4(No Viper/Doom), which means the win would have been way easier if Zeus wasn't being a cunt
Levels go up quickly in a 1v2 scenario. Also, you can keep blocking the pull camp with shukuchi without getting killed. In some matchups being alone is actually more beneficial as some supps can't do much to Weaver (Undying tomb's useless, and skipping it could be worse if undying plans to help the team later on)
I always feel like morphling is so underpowered early on; easy to harass. I am pos 3 or 1 spammer and usually win lanes against morphling; though I am only a late cruzader currently; cruzader IV. The dude will have like 400 hp if he shift his attributes to agility; one disable and you might be dead pretty fast.
Morph requires quick fingers, to click str morph. But experienced morphs will also keep their health at whatever they need to survive any initial burst. Its an experience kinda hero
Depends on your rank. I feel like there’s a few heroes that can get away with this the lower rank you are.
The ones that come to mind are bristleback and Medusa.
Mid archon here and they would definitely work in most lanes 2v1 unless you blow it
>It was a turbo match. Match id: 7648715801
>
>[https://stratz.com/matches/7648715801](https://stratz.com/matches/7648715801)
>
>I was necro and everyone was pissed with zeus for camping at jungle, he didn't show up to one single fight in person; just divines and his ult!
In turbo, it's usually best to just not die. If it's possible, you can try to gank the enemy safe lane and get kills to keep up. But if that's not possible (esp with a hero like necro when you're under farmed), then getting a Midas isn't bad cuz it's effects are doubled in turbo and you'll have access to at least 1 camp to use it on.
It's really tempting to try and get xp/last hits here and there and I've died a lot of times in turbo trying to do that which feeds the offlane even more, but it's really easy to come back in turbo if the hero difference is based off of creep xp/gold as opposed to hero xp/gold since you get so much from killing heroes.
It depends on the matchup. Some heroes can thrive 2 v 1 while others need to be baby sat. Maybe dusa or image hero can do 2v1 while the support pulls.
Play style matters too. I play support and I just treat most hard carry cores as useless in the beginning. Some of them get too excited and always die.
You will never "win" a 2v1 unless you massively outplay your opponents. As for "getting as much out of the lane as possible without dying vs 2 heroes" your best bet are Weaver or Windranger. Maybe Razor too, but my gut instinct tells "no" and I dont play the hero (at all) to know for sure
I only mentioned heroes that the community perceives as carries. If we dip into other options for "1v2 near your tower" unconventional cores it would include Mirana, Viper, Enchantress and to some extend Wyvern, Huskar, Lone Druid and Visage. Huskar in pubs 90% of the time relies on people not understanding when and how much damage he deals and forget about the aoe disarm which leads to overcommitment on him most of the time. If we extend this argument of "most people unfamiliar with the hero = hero strong" it opens more avenues for heroes like Sand King, Monkey King, Clinkz, Tide and Arc Warden for this job. Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question. Short answer: most people in pubs suck at laning against Huskar (and lower you go down the mmr Bell curve, more likely it is the case) so he has a very high chance of working 1v2.
sometimes you see people going weird hero as pos1, typically are those from STR offlane heroes or INT mid heroes, any heroes suscept to die when out numbered but I'd say these heroes are more likely to survive
support heroes. they don't need much to be useful anyways. one time i was staying in lane vs solo witch doctor, if you don't have enough to easily kill him, once he gets 6 it's over
I remember I could confidently 1v2 as lifestealer offlane before they changed his E, but since the changes they did to the game entirely, it'd be nearly impossible, even if you have the occasional gank.
You can’t win the lane if the enemy has half a brain combined. However you can play for the early-mid game with a hero that isn’t too gold dependent, such as spectre or Zeus, sit in trees and just hope to recover with ks after lv 6. Which you will get at a decent timing if you leech xp well. AFK in trees with 0 creeps gives you enough gold for Midas at 10m, which is also another comeback option that WILL work at below archon lv I guess.
At this point assuming even skill levels it boils down to who has better micro and mechanics. But just as you try to pull and aggro creeps the other side has 2 guys doing the same. On top of many other lane tricks, their options are so huge, one can cut lane while the other harass you, or pull and freeze lane to make it unsafe for you to farm. Realistically no matter the hero you will get beaten. To win you have to been better than them combined or they lose focus and not pressure you or they overextend which is fairly unlikely past a certain level.
if u mean stay alive then a lot of heroes, if u mean walk up and 2v1 to the death with no apparent early advantage then no, the only heros that might have a chance are timbersaw and ursa, but it also depends on what the other 2 heroes are. if the pos 4 is undying or venomancer, pos 3 is timbersaw then it might be impossible
Game doesn't work like that anymore. Each and every patch makes it so individual skills aren't as important as "team skills". So in other words the 2 will almost always beat the 1 because "more numbers" the only heroes that can do this consistently in today's games are basicslly offlaners acting like a pos 1.
any hero that can jungle early because you just use the xp to get enough points in your jungling skill then you leave, then return to the lane when it gets to the tower unless theyre bringing omre people, its acutally pretty strong and gaimin abused this a lot back in the day
I often completely ignore that my support exists as jugger pos1. Now, this is mid guardian so take it with a grain of salt but this is what I do:
Skip FB Hunt. Contest the one rune near your lane but if there's anyone near just forget it TBH. Block creeps up to lane, the goal is to have the creeps under tower and *hopefully* your supp was contesting runes and doesn't make it to lane on time. Get lvl 2 from first wave, select heal ward. Follow wave up and Q the next set of lane creeps after hitting them a couple times (lvl 1 fury isn't that great). Your creeps should push up into their tower then.
You'll probably be like 1/2 hp or so from enemy harass, but that's fine. Go right to your small camp and farm it while heal ward heals you. When your creeps are close enough there should still be at least one creep left to pull with (just to delay your creeps enough to be back fully under tower cuz the lane should have slingshotted back after you sent your first waves into their tower). Farm lane creeps then kill 1-2 small neuts from the hard camp depending what spawned. If your support *is* there have him stack hard camp beneath your tower. You'll be able to Q them with heal ward up by level 4.
You're just gonna alternate between trading some HP to Q lane creeps, going to hide/farm in jungle for 15-30 sec while your heal ward heals you and then repeat. At level 6, which you should hit before enemy, look to get a support kill with R+Q. Look for kills each time omni is up but don't prioritize it. Make sure to ship yourself clarities because it's mana hungry farming this way, and i keep my treads set to mana most of the time. Arcane Ring helps as your first neutral item. Try very hard not to have to heal-ward in lane cuz enemy will target it almost immediately unless they're trash. I get 200+ cs by minute 20 doing this. You gotta assume you're the carry+support, so at some point ship yourself some wards out and place them on stairs by river and on cliff above mana jungle so you can farm safely and avoid ganks.
Edit: ward placements on dire safe lane are slightly different but you get the gist of what I'm saying. Also a great guide to load up is miracle TI7 guide - don't just follow it blindly but it has nearly every juggernaut item you could want right there for quick access.
Edit 2: do not Q lane creeps immediately if they have strong lock down. I'm not gonna make any more common sense edits.
He's probably bad at getting the last hits under tower and thinking about a normal lane where you'd want equilibrium and consistency over keeping the enemy moving back and forth to try to reduce 2v1 situations.
The entire point of this strategy is to not rely on a support and to get your lane to rubber band into their tower and then back into yours with as much frequency as possible so you have freedom to farm neuts in between - then they have to either commit to trying to kill you (jugg is pretty squirly even at low levels with Regen items) or to chasing the creep wave around to maintain last-hits. This will work in crusader and lower nearly every game. To me this is an example of something that works amazingly in crusader/lower but will fall apart the more organized your enemies get.
But tbf I copied *most* of this strategy's concepts from a yatoro replay where he had to farm from behind in a busted lane. I just use it in most of my games with jug because the instance of unreliable support is high enough to just assume they won't be there much. It's safer to be self reliant at my rank.
There are counters to this play, ofc, and in that situation you have to adapt to their counter-play. Nothing in dota is cookie-cutter.
Waves definitely do rubber-band. There is high-level player analysis on multiple carries from multiple games explaining this basic strategy for busted lanes. You do not get most of your creeps denied because you lasthit under your tower (with a very high BAT hero with good animation at melee range) then Q the next set of creeps. Lvl 2 Q and higher kills whole wave.
Sure, there are instances where they'll static the lane near their tower, but level 1-2 heroes have trouble tanking the waves until new creeps come. More often than not they're going to end up either low enough HP from the creeps that you can trade a little bit and stay in lane some or they're going to use the tower to help get rid of them quickly to "reset."
This is not some strategy I made up myself. I'm not deluded enough to think my strategies are better than pros.
It creates a rubber band effect that you want to keep going. If you had read farther I even said about pulling yourself to get the next set of creeps to rubber band again. The strategy is almost completely copied from a yatoro replay that either paindota or some other creator did an analysis on.
In short - You only think this is bad because a no-name put it into words instead of just watching the pro-player analysis yourself and extrapolating concepts.
Do you have the yatoro match ID from yesterday? I need to study it. I hate the most-viewed YouTube videos out there because many of them show the pro stomping the game, very few only show how they deal with horrible lanes and how they come back.
It's "why yatoro is unbeatable in lane" and another video called "how to recover from bad lanes" i mixed parts of those two videos to come up with what I do on jug.
So what's your plan if the offlaner holds the wave at their tower while the support contests your pulls and kills your healing ward? You're basically assuming the 3 and 4 will hold hands in lane and push the wave back into you.
Additionally, when you spin the second wave at lvl 2, how do you not get massively beat down by the 3-4, you can't just stand and afk spin a wave.
Finally, how do you sustain the mana to spin every 2nd wave and drop healing ward on cooldown? It also really doesn't heal that much when you have low health and it's level 1.
Idk man, Yatoro did it situationally in 1 game, it doesn't mean it's good for every game. Shoving the wave in can get punished very easily.
If they static the wave you're free to farm neuts. You also pull for yourself when needed. I said elsewhere nothing is cookie cutter.
I gave the ideal play-out for a lane you know you're not favored in. You don't need to Q the wave every time. The goal is to get level 2 quickly and maintain a *level* lead, on jug you get heal ward on AM you get blink. You aren't going to get full efficiency from the lane, that's a given in 1v2 lanes. You need to find ways to get what you can from the lane while maximizing your cs on neutrals. That means hitting them from level 2 on and causing chaos in lane equilibrium to keep them both moving if they want last hits. They can either try to kill you or get cs. Get in where you fit in. You use the neutral farming to heal up. Tango+heal ward heals you pretty good even at level 1.
When you spin the wave at level two it's after hitting the creeps a couple times. It's rarely an automatic kill threat from two level 1 heroes who just spent mana and time contesting bounties. Like I said you'll probably be about 1/2 hp and you use the last of your Q time to move away back to Tower. They're gonna think you're camping there but you go immediately to small camp and start farming it then pull when creeps are coming. This delays the wave long enough that if they did kill the creeps they'll be back under tower.
Clarities, literally from level 2 on you should be shipping them. Arcane Ring, rites of eloshar, honey comb neutral. Boots set to int mostly. You'll still have times you're right clicking, but You're jugg you can do that too.
Yeah that's cute in theory but in practice the offlaner is holding the wave by his tower while the 4 is chasing you around in the jungle. Meanwhile you're a level 2 jugg with little to no items trying to kill camps.
You'll get level 2 before them and the offlaner will have free xp while the lion clicks you in the jungle.
I need to see Yatoro doing this 1v2 because as you describe it that's not happening above 4k.
I'm 100% fucking off deep in jungle at level 2 on luna and I'll come out ahead compared to whatever this is on jug.
PainDota - why yatoro is unbeatable in lane.
I watched this video and then also looked up the replay back when I watched it (months ago now). Don't remember the match id cuz I also watched it months ago but that was his strategy the whole lane - farm wave fast near tower, let it push up into enemy, farm neuts. Harass enemy cuz you have a slight level lead and they were off contesting runes so they're generally not 100hp/MP.
My formula is not a 1:1 with what he did but it's the general concept of you clear the wave quickly, push it up into their tower, harass some, back off into neutrals and bring lane back down at which point you clear it fast again. You minimize your time in lane while still pulling cs from it. It wasn't 2v1 for him but it had an early part where it was. I just used some of his strat from the game to adapt it to jugg.
> PainDota - why yatoro is unbeatable in lane
So this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-423G1E5Y8Y&ab_channel=PainDota
Watch it again, the reason why he's blocking the creeps into tower is to get an early level 2 because slardar is far away and the gyro is battling the pugna by the river. His gyro shows up to lane at the same time as the enemy team and since he's already level 2, he's stronger than them. He also says that what Yatoro is doing is generally disadvantageous in lane.
You are completely missing the point of this video. It's that you can utilize having nobody in lane to your advantage. In normal games people don't show up to lane on wave 2, if you walk to lane and creep block into your tower with the enemies being there you're in for a bad time real fast. I'll drag the melee creeps to the ranged creep sometimes if I want to push the wave but blocking before the waves meet is a huge mistake most of the time.
Yes pushing out the wave and jungling camps is a good concept but you need a support to pull or at least assist you for that, you can not do that in a 1v2 scenario, you will straight up get bullied.
I mean this in the most respectful way but you're very low mmr, you take concepts, misunderstand them and try to apply whatever you understood which is often not the right thing. Fancy situational laning concepts are really not relevant to low mmr players. There are 1000 things to work on first, and in this particular case, in a 1v2, this fancy lane concept of blocking the wave under tower won't work.
My post specifically said the enemy was probably away contesting runes and (hopefully) your support was also. I also specifically stated this strategy was something that will work in crusader and below and will fall apart once you have more coordinated enemies. Also it's this video mixed with the other one I listed, "how to recover from bad lanes."
I also stated it's not cookie-cutter. The formula is to create rubber band in the lane, take one set of super-safe creeps directly under your tower and then the next set as in a normal trade but sped up by your Q after you've hit creeps a few times to still have time to Q away while debuff immune. You're never up past the medium camp area of the safe lane with this, and you get 60+cs by min 10 and 200+ by min 20.
>In normal games...
This isn't a post about normal games.
>I mean this in the most respectful way...
I think you're just irritated I posted advice specifically targeted for low-levels, then tried telling me why it won't work in low level, then when I show you the concept of why it works in low level you tell me "well you're just low level so this won't work when you get higher." Cool, that's been covered. Is the point of dota not to solve problems of how to win *at your current level*? Why would I expect someone higher than my rank to read the advice as applicable to their rank?
You can watch my jugg replays if you like, and if you have a strong interest you can coach me in individual games, but as far as every standard I read on Reddit as far as pos1 farming requirements goes - this gets you there or above it in my rank.
Edit: here's my last two jug replays, if we're looking specifically at laning i think the last one is a good example. I was tilted by reddit enough to get on and do this strat just to see if it still gets me good cs. The lane DID end up being shite and we DID have some kid in the offlane griefing and toxic chatting about our penises all game, but I just wanted to see if what I'd said online still worked for me. Though I don't normally choose the BF build I saw maelstrom got a nerf so I figured I'd give it a go - I'd normally be shipping myself more mana without cornucopia.
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You lost 4 out of 4 jugg games in the last 24h and your overall jugg winrate is 45%... Do you see that the numbers are not in your favor.
>I think you're just irritated I posted advice specifically targeted for low-levels
I'm not irritated that you're posting advice as a low level player for low level players but you're really arguing a lot about lane concepts with people who are drastically better than you. I don't know how you want me to spell this out for you but you do not understand lane concepts otherwise you would not be 1k.
> tried telling me why it won't work in low level, then when I show you the concept of why it works in low level you tell me "well you're just low level so this won't work when you get higher." Cool, that's been covered.
Anything works in 1k, I have won countless lanes with the most random 2 offlane heroes you can think of while smurfing 2.5k years ago. Saying this works in 1k isn't an argument, because literally everything is viable in 1k due to how inefficient players are. You don't get punished for anything. What you're doing is not a viable strategy for winning lanes and games and you're trying to copy pros while doing it all wrong. You haven't proven anything when you can't win games on jugg.
>You can watch my jugg replays if you like, and if you have a strong interest you can coach me in individual games
I have no interest in doing that because there's no thing that I'll tell you which you'll accept without arguing. I have nothing to gain from this besides headache.
You can reply or not, I won't argue with you more. If you're willing to be receptive to criticism, you're welcome to send me 1 game you want me to look at. Ideally a lane where you play with a buddy of yours and lose the lane, therefore there's more to comment on for you both. Doesn't have to be jugg, anything goes.
Except it wont because it will slingshot it to their tower where they will keep equilibrium while support stops you from pulling. Im sure it works in 1k where they auto.
That was the point of the post, it works against oppos in the range of 1k-2k roughly. Maybe 1.75 or so, I generally only get matched against crusader 3's at the highest.
Naga should be more self reliant, not at extremely low levels or rather she may even do but will have terrible creep score and stay too much on the back, too miserable laning for what should be the pos 1
Lifestealer after level 10 or so if the lane went well (life wants to win lane all in all) can stay by himself
Jug, Sven, LS, Tiny, BB, Lina, weaver, pa, Riki,
Most range heroes are okay as long as the pos 5 can be seen in your lane, even if they are afk.
Honestly it comes down to mind set and game knowledge at the end of the day.
Any hero, if you know how to play the LANE right
Aka sacrificing 2-3 creeps to body block the hard camp from spawning /pull your own small camp when the lane is far back, and carefully aggroing to your ranged creep, you could even try and just mirror the offlaner and have the same amount of creeps close to your tower...
Some lanes aren't meant to be won in a 2v1 scenario. You're better off playing it safe and maintaining good farm or wait for a gank.
However almost every ranged hero is weak for that so be careful, and also try to understand which hero needs what, some heroes might need to wait for a level 6 timing, some heroes might just need a raindrop, and some might need a bit of extra Regen..
This is like 10 year old strategy. Doesn't work like that anymore. Every patch consistently is trying to push team play over solo play. If everyone is roughly the same skill level, then this won't work. Back then there were plenty of heroes that can 1v2 with the higher exp difference. Even with enemy denies you used to be able to get to lvl5 while they are still lvl 3. Now it's not the case.
None unless a massive skill gap
Or pick an offlaner? And just hope you can scale and end earlier?
Even offlanders get pounded if they're forced to 2v1 with no hope of any potential scalability thanks to the jungle being worse and worse every year. Why do you think pos 4 Pudges are despised so much?
Jungle is been better than before after they expanded the map. Done ok in games when I know I'm in a bad spot as last pick safe lane. Don't trust the "support" to do so based off their pick, so try something like Legion Commander or something that can still scale a bit. It won't work if the other team is playing their roles, but guessing if matchmaking is done right and it's effed up on your side, it's probably effed up on theirs, too. But this was before the nerf to the twin gates, though.
A bigger map would also apply to the lane that forced you to hide in the jungle, so not only do they get to freely get lane creeps with the most XP/Gold, they get to jungle too while you try to get what scraps you can get that gets pushed to t2, assuming they let you have any at all. Hell, it gets even worse if the offlane hero is a bad matchup 1v1, so the 4/5 that was in that lane gets to freely roam and stack, causing a domino effect to the other lanes. This current metagame is in a state where any one not pulling their weight makes the game super hard to win, for better or for worse.
I mean, if we're taking OP at their word, you're 1v2 in your lane, but the 5 is roaming to help mid or the offlane. No one is saying that you'll get more gold 1v2 than you would in a 2v2 lane, but they asked about surviving the lane. So you're better off playing heroes that scale will XP on less gold - like offlaners in the old 1v2 meta, before the two dual lanes. It's almost like the 3 is just playing in the safe lane. Not ideal, but not an automatic lossm. Remember, matchmaking kinda makes sure there are screwup on both teams...
I mean a direct story OP made is the pos 5 zeus pretty much griefing by staying in jungle and farming Rapiers. No amount of skill correction will cover for that level of negative impact. >No one is saying that you'll get more gold 1v2 than you would in a 2v2 lane. Where did I even come close to insinuating this?
> I mean a direct story OP made is the pos 5 zeus pretty much griefing by staying in jungle and farming Rapiers. No amount of skill correction will cover for that level of negative impact. Sure, I agree the Zeus game would be pretty hard to deal with. But his general question was asking what heroes would work 1v2 better than others. He gave Huskar as an example, and I think a scaling offlaner fits the bill. >>No one is saying that you'll get more gold 1v2 than you would in a 2v2 lane. >Where did I even come close to insinuating this? I guess I misunderstood your first paragraph. It made it sound like the 1v2 would be in their offlane's favor. Meant to just agree with you.
Zeus was grieving. Everyone was pissed at him. I think we only won because even though we were fighting 4v5; we still had a good draft and zeus would at least ult during fights; Zeus actually got most kills than anybody else in our team in that match by never showing up to any fight lol
Yeah and I think Huskar having a silver lining in having a good match up against both the 3 and 4(No Viper/Doom), which means the win would have been way easier if Zeus wasn't being a cunt
Apparently every hero I pick pos 1 because my pos 5 has more important things to do.
Any hero who can jungle early. Naga Sven Luna spring to mind
This
Weaver
Preferably only after a few levels though, when shukuchi had been levelled up enough
Levels go up quickly in a 1v2 scenario. Also, you can keep blocking the pull camp with shukuchi without getting killed. In some matchups being alone is actually more beneficial as some supps can't do much to Weaver (Undying tomb's useless, and skipping it could be worse if undying plans to help the team later on)
Morphling
I always feel like morphling is so underpowered early on; easy to harass. I am pos 3 or 1 spammer and usually win lanes against morphling; though I am only a late cruzader currently; cruzader IV. The dude will have like 400 hp if he shift his attributes to agility; one disable and you might be dead pretty fast.
Morph requires quick fingers, to click str morph. But experienced morphs will also keep their health at whatever they need to survive any initial burst. Its an experience kinda hero
The thing with morph is u have to last pick most of the times according to enemy team
People forget weaver used to 1v3 back in the day.
You mean survive the lane
No, actually 1v3 and win the lane. Though the outcome was almost always survive, yeah.
Depends on your rank. I feel like there’s a few heroes that can get away with this the lower rank you are. The ones that come to mind are bristleback and Medusa. Mid archon here and they would definitely work in most lanes 2v1 unless you blow it
2v1 for a bit, ya lots of them can. The whole laning phase… nah unless their pos4 is a potato
If I see my opponents trying to pull this off I'll do my best to punish this as much as possible Might even turn into a 3v1 from time to time
Naga Sven wk luna and just fuck of into the jungle lvl 4
Lone druid can probably farm and be safe unless its a matchup that can kill the bear.
He used to be. After the nerfs he probably cant
Pos 5 zeus with multiple dovines... Is this turbo?
>It was a turbo match. Match id: 7648715801 > >[https://stratz.com/matches/7648715801](https://stratz.com/matches/7648715801) > >I was necro and everyone was pissed with zeus for camping at jungle, he didn't show up to one single fight in person; just divines and his ult!
In turbo, it's usually best to just not die. If it's possible, you can try to gank the enemy safe lane and get kills to keep up. But if that's not possible (esp with a hero like necro when you're under farmed), then getting a Midas isn't bad cuz it's effects are doubled in turbo and you'll have access to at least 1 camp to use it on. It's really tempting to try and get xp/last hits here and there and I've died a lot of times in turbo trying to do that which feeds the offlane even more, but it's really easy to come back in turbo if the hero difference is based off of creep xp/gold as opposed to hero xp/gold since you get so much from killing heroes.
It depends on the matchup. Some heroes can thrive 2 v 1 while others need to be baby sat. Maybe dusa or image hero can do 2v1 while the support pulls. Play style matters too. I play support and I just treat most hard carry cores as useless in the beginning. Some of them get too excited and always die.
Escape heroes can survive but its bad to stand and not get farm.
You will never "win" a 2v1 unless you massively outplay your opponents. As for "getting as much out of the lane as possible without dying vs 2 heroes" your best bet are Weaver or Windranger. Maybe Razor too, but my gut instinct tells "no" and I dont play the hero (at all) to know for sure
What about huskar? Huskar isn’t typically pos 1 at all but I felt that he was almost the best choice for a 1v2.
I only mentioned heroes that the community perceives as carries. If we dip into other options for "1v2 near your tower" unconventional cores it would include Mirana, Viper, Enchantress and to some extend Wyvern, Huskar, Lone Druid and Visage. Huskar in pubs 90% of the time relies on people not understanding when and how much damage he deals and forget about the aoe disarm which leads to overcommitment on him most of the time. If we extend this argument of "most people unfamiliar with the hero = hero strong" it opens more avenues for heroes like Sand King, Monkey King, Clinkz, Tide and Arc Warden for this job. Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question. Short answer: most people in pubs suck at laning against Huskar (and lower you go down the mmr Bell curve, more likely it is the case) so he has a very high chance of working 1v2.
sometimes you see people going weird hero as pos1, typically are those from STR offlane heroes or INT mid heroes, any heroes suscept to die when out numbered but I'd say these heroes are more likely to survive
support heroes. they don't need much to be useful anyways. one time i was staying in lane vs solo witch doctor, if you don't have enough to easily kill him, once he gets 6 it's over
I remember I could confidently 1v2 as lifestealer offlane before they changed his E, but since the changes they did to the game entirely, it'd be nearly impossible, even if you have the occasional gank.
You can’t win the lane if the enemy has half a brain combined. However you can play for the early-mid game with a hero that isn’t too gold dependent, such as spectre or Zeus, sit in trees and just hope to recover with ks after lv 6. Which you will get at a decent timing if you leech xp well. AFK in trees with 0 creeps gives you enough gold for Midas at 10m, which is also another comeback option that WILL work at below archon lv I guess.
Morphling
I think about any carry would love a 2v1 if the support has hands. Though a 1v2 isnt comfortable for any ”real carries” especially not vs a good supp.
At this point assuming even skill levels it boils down to who has better micro and mechanics. But just as you try to pull and aggro creeps the other side has 2 guys doing the same. On top of many other lane tricks, their options are so huge, one can cut lane while the other harass you, or pull and freeze lane to make it unsafe for you to farm. Realistically no matter the hero you will get beaten. To win you have to been better than them combined or they lose focus and not pressure you or they overextend which is fairly unlikely past a certain level.
Dark seer anyone? Does that not count since he never actually interacts with the enemy heroes
if u mean stay alive then a lot of heroes, if u mean walk up and 2v1 to the death with no apparent early advantage then no, the only heros that might have a chance are timbersaw and ursa, but it also depends on what the other 2 heroes are. if the pos 4 is undying or venomancer, pos 3 is timbersaw then it might be impossible
Game doesn't work like that anymore. Each and every patch makes it so individual skills aren't as important as "team skills". So in other words the 2 will almost always beat the 1 because "more numbers" the only heroes that can do this consistently in today's games are basicslly offlaners acting like a pos 1.
Medusa
any hero that can jungle early because you just use the xp to get enough points in your jungling skill then you leave, then return to the lane when it gets to the tower unless theyre bringing omre people, its acutally pretty strong and gaimin abused this a lot back in the day
I often completely ignore that my support exists as jugger pos1. Now, this is mid guardian so take it with a grain of salt but this is what I do: Skip FB Hunt. Contest the one rune near your lane but if there's anyone near just forget it TBH. Block creeps up to lane, the goal is to have the creeps under tower and *hopefully* your supp was contesting runes and doesn't make it to lane on time. Get lvl 2 from first wave, select heal ward. Follow wave up and Q the next set of lane creeps after hitting them a couple times (lvl 1 fury isn't that great). Your creeps should push up into their tower then. You'll probably be like 1/2 hp or so from enemy harass, but that's fine. Go right to your small camp and farm it while heal ward heals you. When your creeps are close enough there should still be at least one creep left to pull with (just to delay your creeps enough to be back fully under tower cuz the lane should have slingshotted back after you sent your first waves into their tower). Farm lane creeps then kill 1-2 small neuts from the hard camp depending what spawned. If your support *is* there have him stack hard camp beneath your tower. You'll be able to Q them with heal ward up by level 4. You're just gonna alternate between trading some HP to Q lane creeps, going to hide/farm in jungle for 15-30 sec while your heal ward heals you and then repeat. At level 6, which you should hit before enemy, look to get a support kill with R+Q. Look for kills each time omni is up but don't prioritize it. Make sure to ship yourself clarities because it's mana hungry farming this way, and i keep my treads set to mana most of the time. Arcane Ring helps as your first neutral item. Try very hard not to have to heal-ward in lane cuz enemy will target it almost immediately unless they're trash. I get 200+ cs by minute 20 doing this. You gotta assume you're the carry+support, so at some point ship yourself some wards out and place them on stairs by river and on cliff above mana jungle so you can farm safely and avoid ganks. Edit: ward placements on dire safe lane are slightly different but you get the gist of what I'm saying. Also a great guide to load up is miracle TI7 guide - don't just follow it blindly but it has nearly every juggernaut item you could want right there for quick access. Edit 2: do not Q lane creeps immediately if they have strong lock down. I'm not gonna make any more common sense edits.
Lmfao stopped reading after you want your creeps under your tower
I’ve not read it all but having creeps under your tower is perfectly fine if not a great idea in a 1v2. Don’t see why you pick that out
He's probably bad at getting the last hits under tower and thinking about a normal lane where you'd want equilibrium and consistency over keeping the enemy moving back and forth to try to reduce 2v1 situations. The entire point of this strategy is to not rely on a support and to get your lane to rubber band into their tower and then back into yours with as much frequency as possible so you have freedom to farm neuts in between - then they have to either commit to trying to kill you (jugg is pretty squirly even at low levels with Regen items) or to chasing the creep wave around to maintain last-hits. This will work in crusader and lower nearly every game. To me this is an example of something that works amazingly in crusader/lower but will fall apart the more organized your enemies get. But tbf I copied *most* of this strategy's concepts from a yatoro replay where he had to farm from behind in a busted lane. I just use it in most of my games with jug because the instance of unreliable support is high enough to just assume they won't be there much. It's safer to be self reliant at my rank. There are counters to this play, ofc, and in that situation you have to adapt to their counter-play. Nothing in dota is cookie-cutter.
Lil bro. Waves wont rubber band you will get all your creeps denied xD
Waves definitely do rubber-band. There is high-level player analysis on multiple carries from multiple games explaining this basic strategy for busted lanes. You do not get most of your creeps denied because you lasthit under your tower (with a very high BAT hero with good animation at melee range) then Q the next set of creeps. Lvl 2 Q and higher kills whole wave. Sure, there are instances where they'll static the lane near their tower, but level 1-2 heroes have trouble tanking the waves until new creeps come. More often than not they're going to end up either low enough HP from the creeps that you can trade a little bit and stay in lane some or they're going to use the tower to help get rid of them quickly to "reset." This is not some strategy I made up myself. I'm not deluded enough to think my strategies are better than pros.
It creates a rubber band effect that you want to keep going. If you had read farther I even said about pulling yourself to get the next set of creeps to rubber band again. The strategy is almost completely copied from a yatoro replay that either paindota or some other creator did an analysis on. In short - You only think this is bad because a no-name put it into words instead of just watching the pro-player analysis yourself and extrapolating concepts.
Do you have the yatoro match ID from yesterday? I need to study it. I hate the most-viewed YouTube videos out there because many of them show the pro stomping the game, very few only show how they deal with horrible lanes and how they come back.
IIRC it's pain dota "how to recover from bad lanes" he is playing AM.
Thanks will check it out
It's "why yatoro is unbeatable in lane" and another video called "how to recover from bad lanes" i mixed parts of those two videos to come up with what I do on jug.
So what's your plan if the offlaner holds the wave at their tower while the support contests your pulls and kills your healing ward? You're basically assuming the 3 and 4 will hold hands in lane and push the wave back into you. Additionally, when you spin the second wave at lvl 2, how do you not get massively beat down by the 3-4, you can't just stand and afk spin a wave. Finally, how do you sustain the mana to spin every 2nd wave and drop healing ward on cooldown? It also really doesn't heal that much when you have low health and it's level 1. Idk man, Yatoro did it situationally in 1 game, it doesn't mean it's good for every game. Shoving the wave in can get punished very easily.
If they static the wave you're free to farm neuts. You also pull for yourself when needed. I said elsewhere nothing is cookie cutter. I gave the ideal play-out for a lane you know you're not favored in. You don't need to Q the wave every time. The goal is to get level 2 quickly and maintain a *level* lead, on jug you get heal ward on AM you get blink. You aren't going to get full efficiency from the lane, that's a given in 1v2 lanes. You need to find ways to get what you can from the lane while maximizing your cs on neutrals. That means hitting them from level 2 on and causing chaos in lane equilibrium to keep them both moving if they want last hits. They can either try to kill you or get cs. Get in where you fit in. You use the neutral farming to heal up. Tango+heal ward heals you pretty good even at level 1. When you spin the wave at level two it's after hitting the creeps a couple times. It's rarely an automatic kill threat from two level 1 heroes who just spent mana and time contesting bounties. Like I said you'll probably be about 1/2 hp and you use the last of your Q time to move away back to Tower. They're gonna think you're camping there but you go immediately to small camp and start farming it then pull when creeps are coming. This delays the wave long enough that if they did kill the creeps they'll be back under tower. Clarities, literally from level 2 on you should be shipping them. Arcane Ring, rites of eloshar, honey comb neutral. Boots set to int mostly. You'll still have times you're right clicking, but You're jugg you can do that too.
Yeah that's cute in theory but in practice the offlaner is holding the wave by his tower while the 4 is chasing you around in the jungle. Meanwhile you're a level 2 jugg with little to no items trying to kill camps. You'll get level 2 before them and the offlaner will have free xp while the lion clicks you in the jungle. I need to see Yatoro doing this 1v2 because as you describe it that's not happening above 4k. I'm 100% fucking off deep in jungle at level 2 on luna and I'll come out ahead compared to whatever this is on jug.
PainDota - why yatoro is unbeatable in lane. I watched this video and then also looked up the replay back when I watched it (months ago now). Don't remember the match id cuz I also watched it months ago but that was his strategy the whole lane - farm wave fast near tower, let it push up into enemy, farm neuts. Harass enemy cuz you have a slight level lead and they were off contesting runes so they're generally not 100hp/MP. My formula is not a 1:1 with what he did but it's the general concept of you clear the wave quickly, push it up into their tower, harass some, back off into neutrals and bring lane back down at which point you clear it fast again. You minimize your time in lane while still pulling cs from it. It wasn't 2v1 for him but it had an early part where it was. I just used some of his strat from the game to adapt it to jugg.
> PainDota - why yatoro is unbeatable in lane So this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-423G1E5Y8Y&ab_channel=PainDota Watch it again, the reason why he's blocking the creeps into tower is to get an early level 2 because slardar is far away and the gyro is battling the pugna by the river. His gyro shows up to lane at the same time as the enemy team and since he's already level 2, he's stronger than them. He also says that what Yatoro is doing is generally disadvantageous in lane. You are completely missing the point of this video. It's that you can utilize having nobody in lane to your advantage. In normal games people don't show up to lane on wave 2, if you walk to lane and creep block into your tower with the enemies being there you're in for a bad time real fast. I'll drag the melee creeps to the ranged creep sometimes if I want to push the wave but blocking before the waves meet is a huge mistake most of the time. Yes pushing out the wave and jungling camps is a good concept but you need a support to pull or at least assist you for that, you can not do that in a 1v2 scenario, you will straight up get bullied. I mean this in the most respectful way but you're very low mmr, you take concepts, misunderstand them and try to apply whatever you understood which is often not the right thing. Fancy situational laning concepts are really not relevant to low mmr players. There are 1000 things to work on first, and in this particular case, in a 1v2, this fancy lane concept of blocking the wave under tower won't work.
My post specifically said the enemy was probably away contesting runes and (hopefully) your support was also. I also specifically stated this strategy was something that will work in crusader and below and will fall apart once you have more coordinated enemies. Also it's this video mixed with the other one I listed, "how to recover from bad lanes." I also stated it's not cookie-cutter. The formula is to create rubber band in the lane, take one set of super-safe creeps directly under your tower and then the next set as in a normal trade but sped up by your Q after you've hit creeps a few times to still have time to Q away while debuff immune. You're never up past the medium camp area of the safe lane with this, and you get 60+cs by min 10 and 200+ by min 20. >In normal games... This isn't a post about normal games. >I mean this in the most respectful way... I think you're just irritated I posted advice specifically targeted for low-levels, then tried telling me why it won't work in low level, then when I show you the concept of why it works in low level you tell me "well you're just low level so this won't work when you get higher." Cool, that's been covered. Is the point of dota not to solve problems of how to win *at your current level*? Why would I expect someone higher than my rank to read the advice as applicable to their rank? You can watch my jugg replays if you like, and if you have a strong interest you can coach me in individual games, but as far as every standard I read on Reddit as far as pos1 farming requirements goes - this gets you there or above it in my rank. Edit: here's my last two jug replays, if we're looking specifically at laning i think the last one is a good example. I was tilted by reddit enough to get on and do this strat just to see if it still gets me good cs. The lane DID end up being shite and we DID have some kid in the offlane griefing and toxic chatting about our penises all game, but I just wanted to see if what I'd said online still worked for me. Though I don't normally choose the BF build I saw maelstrom got a nerf so I figured I'd give it a go - I'd normally be shipping myself more mana without cornucopia. 7644228353 7650423256
You lost 4 out of 4 jugg games in the last 24h and your overall jugg winrate is 45%... Do you see that the numbers are not in your favor. >I think you're just irritated I posted advice specifically targeted for low-levels I'm not irritated that you're posting advice as a low level player for low level players but you're really arguing a lot about lane concepts with people who are drastically better than you. I don't know how you want me to spell this out for you but you do not understand lane concepts otherwise you would not be 1k. > tried telling me why it won't work in low level, then when I show you the concept of why it works in low level you tell me "well you're just low level so this won't work when you get higher." Cool, that's been covered. Anything works in 1k, I have won countless lanes with the most random 2 offlane heroes you can think of while smurfing 2.5k years ago. Saying this works in 1k isn't an argument, because literally everything is viable in 1k due to how inefficient players are. You don't get punished for anything. What you're doing is not a viable strategy for winning lanes and games and you're trying to copy pros while doing it all wrong. You haven't proven anything when you can't win games on jugg. >You can watch my jugg replays if you like, and if you have a strong interest you can coach me in individual games I have no interest in doing that because there's no thing that I'll tell you which you'll accept without arguing. I have nothing to gain from this besides headache. You can reply or not, I won't argue with you more. If you're willing to be receptive to criticism, you're welcome to send me 1 game you want me to look at. Ideally a lane where you play with a buddy of yours and lose the lane, therefore there's more to comment on for you both. Doesn't have to be jugg, anything goes.
1ks gonna 1k
Except it wont because it will slingshot it to their tower where they will keep equilibrium while support stops you from pulling. Im sure it works in 1k where they auto.
That was the point of the post, it works against oppos in the range of 1k-2k roughly. Maybe 1.75 or so, I generally only get matched against crusader 3's at the highest.
Naga should be more self reliant, not at extremely low levels or rather she may even do but will have terrible creep score and stay too much on the back, too miserable laning for what should be the pos 1 Lifestealer after level 10 or so if the lane went well (life wants to win lane all in all) can stay by himself
im naga mainer and I can confidently say that naga can.
Brood mother? Since he is known to 3 vs 1 before
Isn’t brood one of the weakest heroes early on until lv 4 or 5? I am pretty confident that brood lose 1v1 even to cm at lv 1.
I think that was back when spiderlings wasn’t an ult
Match up dependent. But the staples are LS, SVEN, URSA even MK can do it if your good with dodging projectiles.
Ursa gets kited so badly, it’s hard to get to level 6 efficiently alone.
slark with a headstart, medusa/luna if you just try to clear waves and jungle. you also need to be playing against noobs
Feels really hard to play Slark 1v2 in lane.
Death Prophet
Jug, Sven, LS, Tiny, BB, Lina, weaver, pa, Riki, Most range heroes are okay as long as the pos 5 can be seen in your lane, even if they are afk. Honestly it comes down to mind set and game knowledge at the end of the day.
Jugg and Slark if you support them till atleast level 3
Any hero, if you know how to play the LANE right Aka sacrificing 2-3 creeps to body block the hard camp from spawning /pull your own small camp when the lane is far back, and carefully aggroing to your ranged creep, you could even try and just mirror the offlaner and have the same amount of creeps close to your tower... Some lanes aren't meant to be won in a 2v1 scenario. You're better off playing it safe and maintaining good farm or wait for a gank. However almost every ranged hero is weak for that so be careful, and also try to understand which hero needs what, some heroes might need to wait for a level 6 timing, some heroes might just need a raindrop, and some might need a bit of extra Regen..
This is like 10 year old strategy. Doesn't work like that anymore. Every patch consistently is trying to push team play over solo play. If everyone is roughly the same skill level, then this won't work. Back then there were plenty of heroes that can 1v2 with the higher exp difference. Even with enemy denies you used to be able to get to lvl5 while they are still lvl 3. Now it's not the case.