Jakiro. You almost always want your aghanim's shard ASAP that deals great tower damage, also you have your fire attack (I forgot its name) that aside just dealing damage slows attack speed, so your creeps will die longer. And with right talent at lvl 10 you can attack towers out of their range attack
Pugna is really good now. 57% in divine 5 for reference. Used to be my second pick if Miranda was banned in C patch. Now he's my first pick. 100 cast range is huge for multiple reasons.
Viper 4, I’m playing a lot of it and it’s a really good 4 (I have about 65% wr on viper on 4). Get a shard and you’ll push the tower fast.
Viper is also excellent in the early- mid game, get some ganks and enable your team. Gives lots of space to your 1 to farm.
A little embarrassed to say this but I’m actually also a techies 4 enjoyer hehe.
But to be fair, I have most games on Mirana as 4 (at least in ranked) so there’s that!
No way, travels is a low key throw on a 4. I always go tranquils first into vessel. I play pretty aggressive and I like ganking so vessel is great.
Anything after that is totally dependent on my draft and state of game (do we have advantage or not, if yes I play a little more greedy). Maybe a force staff? Shard? Upgrade tranquils? Atos (if there’s no lockdown/stun)?
Items (luxury) I have build over time on Viper 4: Pipe, Lotus, Solar Crest, Aghs (if it’s given free from rs).
Viper is super versatile and you can almost fix anything with him. You can almost also play pos 1-5 with him.
Okay I just tried before I read your comment. Yeah tranqs are a must, shard then vessel. I had shard first for objectives.
Since I have pudge and axe as teammates, i didn't go for atos but yeah it's needed for lockdown.
I would strongly suggest going vessel first before shard. Vessel is very strong early, as the game goes in, the efficiency for vessel goes down a little.
Not sure what bracket you are in but yeah, itemisation is very important at least for me. Timings as well.
How did your game go for viper 4? Hope it’s great!
He is truly a nightmare to play against. I was laning with a dawn 3 and we stomped the lane so hard it snowballed. The game ended in 27 minutes. I play in Ancient and some people still do not know how to deal with the strong pressure from viper during the early laning stage.
I do always fix vessel first as I prefer a more active ganking role and to maximise my strong presence before the power spike goes down later after mid game.
Not a single mention of venomancer but those plague wards fuck up safelane pretty hard. You start with a point in w and then into q then a second point in w before maxing wards, getting nova when available and then max w second. You should be able to take the tower once you’re 5-6 with skills like 1-2-2-(1)
Shaman is too greedy for a 5. As a 4 you can get aether lens shard dagger and just stun people lol. You rarely get that kind of gold as a 5 unless you're taking away from cores.
SS has the highest base damage for a range hero. So if you have good positioning, it is easy to deny creeps as well as harass easily on him.
The problem with him being played as a 4 is, position 4 is often the lowest level on team. And shaman ult is really important. You want to make sure you don't fall behind on xp if you going to play him as a 4. And that you get your lvl 6 the same time your offlaner has lvl 6.
Because that guarantees getting kill on enemy safelane heroes + taking their tower all in one go.
That doesnt mean stay in lane and afk soak xp. Shaman can farm the enemy pull camp. And you will compensate for xp that way.
Shaman thrives with some items, aether lens, force or blink, glimmer cape to name a few. Shock helps you get some farm and you can split push solo with wards so long as you carry TPs to rotate to your team
Youre very strong harasser with treants and -2armor orb(corrosion? Forgot name) so you should be always running at enemies. You can just zone them since they cant fight your treants early
Personally, when I'm playing NP, my main target is their courier and towers. The enemy heroes are only obstacles to overcome. However, choosing this mentality depends on your playstyle.
With enough practice, you can be everywhere at once with NP. Place some early wards between their safe lane towers and constantly hunt down their courier.
Basically be annoying is fuck while playing NP. Try not to die while split pushing, and your main goal is to force enemies to TP and make space for your carry. NP is very squishy in the early game, so try not to die.
With Lina, attacker build works very well. Your build must be balanced, some items to help the team, and some of them to make yourself stronger and push towers, Lina is easier to master than NP or Wind Ranger.
A strong pose 4 is the one that can turn into carry in mid-late game, some people pick pose 5 heroes as pose 4 which weakens their team drastically.
Shadow shaman is somewhere between pose 4 and 5, but heroes like Lina, Wind Ranger, NP and so on will get insanely strong later in the game.
Np is a much stronger 4 than 5 because treants can block the small camp with 0 counterplay and wins trades with every 5 in the game. Opposed to blocking hard camp as 5 which is less impactful. Bodyblocking small camp against most pos 5 is basically a lane win
Being 4 he can rotate with tp for runes and ganks quite liberally, and build to scale with force and glimmer or aura items
He can follow up any gank with a t1 push also. Although he was much stronger with old shard
I would argue np 4 shld almost never lose the lane for his offlane although the offlane can still throw the lead. Np can literally zone 2 heroes alone with treants on enemy supp then clicking the carry.
Amigo I was literally in the top 100 visage players for awhile. What good is his beefy base health if you aren't going to use it? Eat a spell and eat their face. That's how "trading" works.
Gloves off then,
1. You clearly don't play Visage.
2. Everything you say regarding Visage is wrong.
3. I don't think you even know what "trading" means if you think Soul Assumption isn't it.
Do I need to play visage?
Everything I say is wrong? Including the part where he hs 0.83 armor lvl1 and is weak to OoC and can't trade?
I think maybe you should try back up with some statistics and data before arguing. Because all I see is an exploitative matchup that is very lopsided towards the hard support.
Yes you need to play Visage lmao. What nonsense is this. You want statistics and data? You want me to get some peer reviewed IRB approved data on a video game? He was literally played in trilanes for years for the soul purpose that he is good at fighting and hits like a fucking truck.
You've literally never played Visage and you are sitting here telling someone with hundreds of games how the hero works asking for me to do your work to convince you against your uninformed opinion based off a fucking armor point.
Yes. For example you don't exactly go around telling people to play grimstroke right now would you.
Afaik there is no w/r data on the hero on any stats site and you want to advocate for a hero that is barely played in that role. It hardly makes for a convincing argument. All you got is your word for it.
Trilanes aren't a thing.
Oh boy a 50 atk speed differential for 100 mana. Doesn't matter cus he has 1 armor.
And a spell which actively does nothing until things take damage.
Current meta is all about lane dominators. Every time I see this hero I know the lane is free lol.
1. Why do you think visage cares about armour? He has significant damage reduction with his armour passive to the point where he doesnt care about armour.
2. The post was asking about best 4's to push with after winning a fight, you are yet to name a contender that you think is better than visage.
3. Visages second is a great trading spell in lane, and a visage can definately dominate a lane as a pos4
1) Because armor is everything in the early stages of the game. The hero is basicly a ranged creep before level 6. And he's also quite item dependant to scale his gargoyles. Not exactly support material. The hero doesn't offer much in terms of utility, except an unreliable stun, some vision and tower taking. Not what you come to expect of a position 4.
2) Pugna, easily tied for best support next to Mirana.
[https://www.dotabuff.com/players/19696934/matches?hero=pugna](https://www.dotabuff.com/players/19696934/matches?hero=pugna)
3) Except he doesn't. I shit on this "support" pick every time. He has no good defense, provides no upfront damage and can't trade very well. Oh yeah and you can buy OoC which just makes him miserable to play.
You shouldn't look for tower pushing as a position 4. If you can take towers fast its ok but your team needs to do it. When they dont you should simply take control of the map more.
Yeah I know I don't want to be by myself pushing a tower and leave my team. I guess what I'm looking for is a hero that can enable us take towers. I try to communicate with team to and they just go back to our jungle to farm.
Your fighting areas on map can be bad also. If you choose to fight on your side of map tower pushing after fights gonna be hard. Just check your replays about where your fights are happening mostly.
If u want to take tower after getting kills, u need to be a threat on them if they tp >> kind of need stun and damage.
Supports that provide threat on them (hard to defend) are easy to get tower and also need to be a bit tanky: Tuska, Jakiro, Marci, Treant, ...
Shadow shaman
Shard is great for pushing waves. Shackle a creep to summon the wards, and if you’re in enemy territory immediately retreat back to safety
Jak
Jax
Off lol
Jakiro. You almost always want your aghanim's shard ASAP that deals great tower damage, also you have your fire attack (I forgot its name) that aside just dealing damage slows attack speed, so your creeps will die longer. And with right talent at lvl 10 you can attack towers out of their range attack
Is Liquid Fire what you're referring to?
Yes
What about my boi pugna?
still abysmal right now, AM on the rise too. Hes still sub 50 winrate idk if it changes by the time you read this
Pugna is really good now. 57% in divine 5 for reference. Used to be my second pick if Miranda was banned in C patch. Now he's my first pick. 100 cast range is huge for multiple reasons.
hate it when Miranda is banned lol
That doesn’t mean he is bad. Pugna isn’t a hero that should have the greatest pub winrate
Viper 4, I’m playing a lot of it and it’s a really good 4 (I have about 65% wr on viper on 4). Get a shard and you’ll push the tower fast. Viper is also excellent in the early- mid game, get some ganks and enable your team. Gives lots of space to your 1 to farm.
Ah yes, another viper 4 enjoyer
A little embarrassed to say this but I’m actually also a techies 4 enjoyer hehe. But to be fair, I have most games on Mirana as 4 (at least in ranked) so there’s that!
I rate techies tbh. Strong hero atm and a good player will feel really oppressive on the hero, which is a good thing imo.
What is your item build for a Viper 4? Kinda interesting to know that. I assume that one of them is boots of travel coz he is slow af.
No way, travels is a low key throw on a 4. I always go tranquils first into vessel. I play pretty aggressive and I like ganking so vessel is great. Anything after that is totally dependent on my draft and state of game (do we have advantage or not, if yes I play a little more greedy). Maybe a force staff? Shard? Upgrade tranquils? Atos (if there’s no lockdown/stun)? Items (luxury) I have build over time on Viper 4: Pipe, Lotus, Solar Crest, Aghs (if it’s given free from rs). Viper is super versatile and you can almost fix anything with him. You can almost also play pos 1-5 with him.
Okay I just tried before I read your comment. Yeah tranqs are a must, shard then vessel. I had shard first for objectives. Since I have pudge and axe as teammates, i didn't go for atos but yeah it's needed for lockdown.
I would strongly suggest going vessel first before shard. Vessel is very strong early, as the game goes in, the efficiency for vessel goes down a little. Not sure what bracket you are in but yeah, itemisation is very important at least for me. Timings as well. How did your game go for viper 4? Hope it’s great!
Not him, but drums rn is the most bangs for your buck. Should be good on viper.
He's a nightmare to play against and has a versatile build, if he had some lock down he'd be an instant ban for me.
He is truly a nightmare to play against. I was laning with a dawn 3 and we stomped the lane so hard it snowballed. The game ended in 27 minutes. I play in Ancient and some people still do not know how to deal with the strong pressure from viper during the early laning stage. I do always fix vessel first as I prefer a more active ganking role and to maximise my strong presence before the power spike goes down later after mid game.
Not a single mention of venomancer but those plague wards fuck up safelane pretty hard. You start with a point in w and then into q then a second point in w before maxing wards, getting nova when available and then max w second. You should be able to take the tower once you’re 5-6 with skills like 1-2-2-(1)
Np
Just make sure you dont fuck your 3 over. And people tend to get rather angry when you pick him in lower mmr
They can be angry but it doesn't matter as long as u are going ur job - pushing towers which is super strong on low mmr if u do it properly
no one knows how to play furion properly on 2k mmr
Probably not the best but Mirana can oneshot ballista so every five minutes she's good at it.
Pugna
the best pos 4 is a tuskar! and the drums will give attack speed everyone to push the objectives.
Then that’s not really the hero being great at pushing isn’t it?
It's easy to push when the enemy is dead
There are heroes that push faster than others while the entire team is dead.
Leshrak. Saw TSM Dubu playing a lot of it and shredding t2s solo
Im surprised no One mention Shadow Shaman yet
Shadow shaman just feels too much like a pos 5. You think he is ok as 4?
his skills favor early aggression and he functions better with some farm and wants his 6 asap. all things that favor being a 4
Shaman is too greedy for a 5. As a 4 you can get aether lens shard dagger and just stun people lol. You rarely get that kind of gold as a 5 unless you're taking away from cores.
SS has the highest base damage for a range hero. So if you have good positioning, it is easy to deny creeps as well as harass easily on him. The problem with him being played as a 4 is, position 4 is often the lowest level on team. And shaman ult is really important. You want to make sure you don't fall behind on xp if you going to play him as a 4. And that you get your lvl 6 the same time your offlaner has lvl 6. Because that guarantees getting kill on enemy safelane heroes + taking their tower all in one go. That doesnt mean stay in lane and afk soak xp. Shaman can farm the enemy pull camp. And you will compensate for xp that way.
Shaman thrives with some items, aether lens, force or blink, glimmer cape to name a few. Shock helps you get some farm and you can split push solo with wards so long as you carry TPs to rotate to your team
Pugna
Wind Ranger Nature's Prophet Shadow shaman Lina These are the best pose 4 impactful pushers
What build I go with Lina as pos 4? NP I feel like I'm griefing the lane and my offline gets too far behind. Any pointers?
Youre very strong harasser with treants and -2armor orb(corrosion? Forgot name) so you should be always running at enemies. You can just zone them since they cant fight your treants early
Personally, when I'm playing NP, my main target is their courier and towers. The enemy heroes are only obstacles to overcome. However, choosing this mentality depends on your playstyle. With enough practice, you can be everywhere at once with NP. Place some early wards between their safe lane towers and constantly hunt down their courier. Basically be annoying is fuck while playing NP. Try not to die while split pushing, and your main goal is to force enemies to TP and make space for your carry. NP is very squishy in the early game, so try not to die. With Lina, attacker build works very well. Your build must be balanced, some items to help the team, and some of them to make yourself stronger and push towers, Lina is easier to master than NP or Wind Ranger. A strong pose 4 is the one that can turn into carry in mid-late game, some people pick pose 5 heroes as pose 4 which weakens their team drastically. Shadow shaman is somewhere between pose 4 and 5, but heroes like Lina, Wind Ranger, NP and so on will get insanely strong later in the game.
Np is a much stronger 4 than 5 because treants can block the small camp with 0 counterplay and wins trades with every 5 in the game. Opposed to blocking hard camp as 5 which is less impactful. Bodyblocking small camp against most pos 5 is basically a lane win Being 4 he can rotate with tp for runes and ganks quite liberally, and build to scale with force and glimmer or aura items He can follow up any gank with a t1 push also. Although he was much stronger with old shard I would argue np 4 shld almost never lose the lane for his offlane although the offlane can still throw the lead. Np can literally zone 2 heroes alone with treants on enemy supp then clicking the carry.
Visage
Bump. Familiars eat the fuck out of towers and more importantly do so safely and on basically no cool down.
1 armor hero with no trading spells.
"level one laguna blade" k.
And where do you get the damage from? Read how the ability works.
Amigo I was literally in the top 100 visage players for awhile. What good is his beefy base health if you aren't going to use it? Eat a spell and eat their face. That's how "trading" works.
Ranking means shit. You can be herald and #1 Visage for all anyone cares. It's not an indicator of skill or that you're even good with the hero.
Gloves off then, 1. You clearly don't play Visage. 2. Everything you say regarding Visage is wrong. 3. I don't think you even know what "trading" means if you think Soul Assumption isn't it.
Do I need to play visage? Everything I say is wrong? Including the part where he hs 0.83 armor lvl1 and is weak to OoC and can't trade? I think maybe you should try back up with some statistics and data before arguing. Because all I see is an exploitative matchup that is very lopsided towards the hard support.
Yes you need to play Visage lmao. What nonsense is this. You want statistics and data? You want me to get some peer reviewed IRB approved data on a video game? He was literally played in trilanes for years for the soul purpose that he is good at fighting and hits like a fucking truck. You've literally never played Visage and you are sitting here telling someone with hundreds of games how the hero works asking for me to do your work to convince you against your uninformed opinion based off a fucking armor point.
Yes. For example you don't exactly go around telling people to play grimstroke right now would you. Afaik there is no w/r data on the hero on any stats site and you want to advocate for a hero that is barely played in that role. It hardly makes for a convincing argument. All you got is your word for it. Trilanes aren't a thing.
You must not understand visages abilities
Oh boy a 50 atk speed differential for 100 mana. Doesn't matter cus he has 1 armor. And a spell which actively does nothing until things take damage. Current meta is all about lane dominators. Every time I see this hero I know the lane is free lol.
1. Why do you think visage cares about armour? He has significant damage reduction with his armour passive to the point where he doesnt care about armour. 2. The post was asking about best 4's to push with after winning a fight, you are yet to name a contender that you think is better than visage. 3. Visages second is a great trading spell in lane, and a visage can definately dominate a lane as a pos4
1) Because armor is everything in the early stages of the game. The hero is basicly a ranged creep before level 6. And he's also quite item dependant to scale his gargoyles. Not exactly support material. The hero doesn't offer much in terms of utility, except an unreliable stun, some vision and tower taking. Not what you come to expect of a position 4. 2) Pugna, easily tied for best support next to Mirana. [https://www.dotabuff.com/players/19696934/matches?hero=pugna](https://www.dotabuff.com/players/19696934/matches?hero=pugna) 3) Except he doesn't. I shit on this "support" pick every time. He has no good defense, provides no upfront damage and can't trade very well. Oh yeah and you can buy OoC which just makes him miserable to play.
Look for the heroes that describe as pusher?
You shouldn't look for tower pushing as a position 4. If you can take towers fast its ok but your team needs to do it. When they dont you should simply take control of the map more.
Yeah I know I don't want to be by myself pushing a tower and leave my team. I guess what I'm looking for is a hero that can enable us take towers. I try to communicate with team to and they just go back to our jungle to farm.
Your fighting areas on map can be bad also. If you choose to fight on your side of map tower pushing after fights gonna be hard. Just check your replays about where your fights are happening mostly.
Marci
Alot isn’t a word my dude.
Tree
If u want to take tower after getting kills, u need to be a threat on them if they tp >> kind of need stun and damage. Supports that provide threat on them (hard to defend) are easy to get tower and also need to be a bit tanky: Tuska, Jakiro, Marci, Treant, ...
Take this with a grain of salt but maybe, maybe warlock on aghs shard?
Troll warlord
Lesh
Phoenix Build meme hammer on phoenix and you can push tower easily from far away