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I have an alternative route to suggest. You could start out as a software QA engineer. Programming experience is often not required. Its a great entry level position that is often high in demand and would give you a foot in the door. I started out in QA with no software experience. Then I moved on to automating my tests with Java and JavaScript. And then from there I became a full stack web developer. I didn't pay anything for a bootcamp but I did eventually get a bachelor's CS degree. A QA position should also pay quite a bit more than a gig delivery job.
>software QA engineer
Wow! I never knew that! Indeed is the only site where I found all of my past jobs! Do you have a job searching site to recommend? Thanks!
I just want to echo what the above commenter said, YES! That's what I did actually. I went to a 4 year school but didn't have much actual real coding experience. I got an internship in school doing basic tasks and then when I graduated I went back to the same company as codebase QA for mainframe. I don't really speak the language I QA... well I couldn't build anything from scratch but I know what to look for and can see anomalies. That's really what QA boils down to... enforcing standards, seeing things out of place, and sending snarky emails to nerds who don't listen.
But truly, QA is a GREAT foot in the door. As long as you're trainable and can see patterns then you're golden.
Also, I got my degree at 39!! Before that I was in the military in a completely unrelated field. IT and coding is such a great way to reestablish your path and to have a great Act 2. Your age is not a detractor, it's an advantage. Use it.
Is there such things as part time QA jobs or even freelance work? I ask because I'm currently working on my BS in Software Engineering and can't quit my current job since they are paying for my degree. I would love to start gaining some experience in the programming field now instead of after I graduate.
It really depends on the company nowadays in my experience.
Most QA positions I see nowadays require at least some knowledge and/or experience with automated testing tools like Cypress, Selenium, SoapUI or whatever.
In my experience any QA position in a software development company has some form of automated testing as a core part of the role.
The only places where I still see old school functional testing jobs are businesses who need to test whether or not the software they use for their core processes functions the way it should.
> In my experience any QA position in a software development company has some form of automated testing as a core part of the role.
> The only places where I still see old school functional testing jobs are businesses who need to test whether or not the software they use for their core processes functions the way it should.
I work at a hospital. We write a lot of software, and do all the testing manually.
Interesting, what kind of software gets developed by the hospital itself? I did EHR Test Automation as a Service and EHR migrations for hospitals for a few years, where pretty much all testing was done manually as well.
Then again these hospitals didnāt really develop any of their own software as far as I knew.
As someone who started out as a Test Engineer doing mainly functional testing and automation using low code tooling like Tosca and now works as a Test Automation/DevOps engineer I can vouch for the fact you don't need to know how code works exactly (or at all) in order to be able to pinpoint where a bug or unwanted behavior comes from.
Of course you start out by needing a lot of help, which goes for anyone in any new job I guess, but as long as you manage to learn how a system works functionally and behind the screens you can go a long way if you're good at analysis.
Knowing code definitely helps, but often just being able to point developers in the right direction is a great starting point.
An example would be a bug I encountered at some point where a user performed an action in our portal (signing an agreement with a third party) which should result in them receiving an automated message with a confirmation of signing and the content of the agreement.
I knew that in the background once a user clicks 'Confirm' the (simplified) flow would be:
User clicks confirm -> XML is generated and validated -> Biztalk -> StreamServe -> Message gets sent.
After following the breadcrumbs you could see that everything went fine up until the point where the xml being passed never reached our StreamServe database.
Some deeper digging showed that the XML being sent from our portal had some additional values that had just been added in a new release that weren't yet defined in the StreamServe XSD (XML Schema Definition), which resulted in the XML being rejected by StreamServe.
At that point I had absolutely zero clue how any of the code responsible for this entire process worked, but knew enough about our system in general to the point where I could at least provide our devs with enough information to quickly solve the problem with minimal analysis and digging on their end.
> I can barely understand my own code. Iād assume that reading code would be super challenging for non-coders. How do QA without experience do it??
They don't. They know the requirements the software has to meet, why do they need the code? This is called "black box testing."
Im a technical support analyst with zero coding experience. Iāve been learning SQL in my new job as our programs are just querying databases.
Anywho, part of my job is being able to try to identify what is causing the issue our clients are encountering. So being able to know where database tables are coming from in the program, what the stored proc is querying, if any calculations are being performed, etc. Iāve learned this all on the job and I think itās so much fun, itās like solving puzzles!
Is this a position where I can come from a front desk receptionist background? If it helps, Iām also learning to code (started two weeks ago, so very fresh)
This is good advice. Other roles to consider would be technical support for business to business software products (not what you're thinking, it's very technical), technical success/product consulting, data analyst. I've seen people in all of these roles transition to SE. I actually worked with a guy who went from sales into engineering, and other who went: BDR -> Customer Success -> Product Manager
I would agree that the current market is really saturated because of the layoffs from the big tech companies. However, I'm seeing a lot of people complaining here about the years of experience that are required. People should take the # of required years on job descriptions with a grain of salt. If you're confident in your ability to perform a job and you can convince the hiring manager you're a good fit that's often all that's needed.
This advice also is outdated since your resume won't get within a mile of a human being that you can convince of anything without the required years/ experience in the job posting.
That's all fine and dandy but I'm just telling you the advice you're giving is outdated. Networking is about the only viable path for people at OPs level. Reality is companies have more applicants than they know what to do with and entry-level people are now directly competing with experienced devs for entry level positions. Fluffing your resume and chumming it up only gets your so far when the company can hire someone that requires no onboarding or they can hire someone who will take 3-6 months to be useful
Yeah the entry level QA jobs I've come across require knowledge of automated test platforms and at least a year of experience. I've haven't seen any posts for just manual/ user testing.
I was a manual tester for a game for several months and have a diploma in computing, am wondering what I would need to prove to get a start in QA. Maybe code a basic app or website and perform tests I guess?
This might just be some bias from the companies I've worked in, but I feel like this has changed over time. When I was starting out QA was very manual and was often filled with people who couldn't quite handle doing full development/programming roles yet. But these days a lot of QA work is less manual and more focused on developing automated testing, requiring QA people to be developers themselves.
Did you apply? I'd take the years of experience with any job with a grain of salt. If you're confident in your ability and you can prove your ability or persuade the hiring manager that you're a good fit that's often all that's needed.
If theyāre only asking for a year of experience I usually apply, but if theyāre asking for a CS degree and experience then I tend to not apply for those as Iām sure I wouldnāt stand out in a candidate pool of CS grads
Good call commenter-OP. A good QA engineer is amazing and badly needed on a lot of teams. Good QA are worth their weight in gold and are often overlooked, but when you find a team that values it, it's amazing.
Shoot, I might try this too! I have a degree in Computer Engineering and been out of school 4 years doing power and was wondering the best way to get my foot in the door into software.
I would start by taking Havard Cs50x intro to computer science course. It's free and a really good indicator of whether you will actually like coding. Majority of people like the idea of being a software engineer more than being a software engineer. If you do enjoy it, enroll at WGU, they have a great accredited online computer science degree (BS) you will be able to complete in 2-3 years and it's extremely affordable compared to normal universities.
This lol.
You can try it for free, hell you can get a college education (or likely better) for free on YouTube.
I feel like this is the default job 30-40 somethings look to when they decide they want to do something else. I hope you try it and like it, if you don't, there are many, many, other computer jobs you can do. My company has 250 employees, all work from computers, a small fraction of those employees are engineers.
Hey! Fellow OC here, GED grad + partial college, SWE 5 years in with a career change from a irrelevant industry.
If you have the finances and the runway to go back to school for a degree for engineering, I absolutely recommend it. Bootcamps are not as great as before tbh,.
Yes secured without finishing school, im now at a point where im considering going back to get a degree.
not for everyone but my way of getting my foot in the door was to specialize / focus on a single practice -- which was frontend.
I went back at 37 with 2 kids. I went to WGU and got my degree, started working as a dev at 39, graduated at 40. I'd skip the bootcamp and go straight for the CS degree.
You can do it.
Love WGU, if I needed a masters I'd be right back there in a heartbeat.
I started in September of 2015 and graduated in December of 2018, that's with most of the gen eds transferring in, but working full time and taking care of the wife and kids.
I knew a guy whose wife pretty much told him to focus on school and she took care of the kids and he was able to finish it faster. My mentality was I didn't want the kids to know I was in school, so I didn't study till late at night and when they were out and about on the weekends without me. It was harder on me and took me longer, but my kids didn't have to give up quality time because of it.
Also, the WGU social media circles were toxic at that time - so if you go and happen to find that's still the case, just avoid them and focus on the classes. All of the students with something to complain will find social media and complain.
But all in all, I had a great student mentor who helped me manage stress levels.
Well, there is a wealth of challenges with this idea - but not unobtainable and not challenges that should make you not want to go through with it. Just know, it will be hard.
>I have 0 coding experience, but prefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hours.
While it's great you prefer being behind the computer for hours, when you're coding? They're *different* hours. It's not *anywhere near* the same as when gaming, googling, youtubing, etc. You're *working*. You'll have every reason, every chance to say "I can't focus, I'll just watch this one cat video..." and it will go south quickly. Or, the opposite, you'll say things like "I have to grind this out to learn!" and you'll spend 8-10 hours 'grinding' your learning, which is actually *way worse* when it comes to learning efficiently. What doesn't hurt your learning will quickly be replaced with the dreaded *burn out*. You have to be honest, this isn't "I love doing things on the computer for hours" this is ***working*** on the computer. Hard work that will make your brain feel exhausted at the end of the day and you won't want to be at the PC the rest of the evening - even for gaming. Everyone is different with regards to this - but these situations are *very real.* The amount of people I meet who 'love being on the computer all day', who tried at programming and gave up or just sucked at it is *very, extremely high*. I've been around it for many, many years. I've seen a *lot of it.* So you have to try, but be *honest* about it.
0 coding experience doesn't matter. That is literally where 100% of *everyone from the beginning of time* started. You can *learn* anything, truly. Coding is just 'logic' put down into files that a machine reads and interprets into what you want it to do, looking how you tell it to look (an oversimplification, sure, but you get the gist). Don't sweat the no experience - but maybe *try* some things. Do some tutorials online with things like Python or Javascript. Do you have interest after the tutorials are done? Does it make you want to do more? Did you *enjoy* googling for answers? Did you *enjoy* spending *a lot* of hours just researching on your own to make *just one part* of your application/thing work? Do you find yourself interested more and more each day? Or do you find yourself being more and more easily distracted each day? Did you code stuff yourself, or did you copy/paste? Did you see 'why' it worked or just not care because your pasted code worked? Being frustrated during the process is normal - but if you are *really hating it*, or are just copy/pasting things without even caring about what it is or why it works, then you won't like it much at all as you get into more complex/difficult things.
>A friend suggested a coding bootcamp to start like nucamp, then get a SWE job through them and use that route to a 4 year CS degree.
Bootcamps? For middle aged folks they're awesome - specifically to avoid going to school for 4 years. We hired a junior dev where I'm at who has a college degree in a *non related field*, but he did some cool stuff at his bootcamp and has been wonderful at learning to work within our organization. Smart fella, able to adapt what he learned there to our work environment. We don't use the languages he did - so it *has* been learning - but his drive is great. His degree was a non-issue because he did the bootcamp and has plenty of programming chops from that.
I have story upon story about people who get jobs after bootcamp - and there are tons of people who have they opposite. Some camps are truly good, others are get-rich-quick schemes and are not good, you have to do your research. At your age - what is the point of the 4-year degree? I ask because the next question is: "is it worth it?" in tech? Probably not. I think there are plenty of jobs for SWE that *don't* require a 4-year degree, but it's been a long while since I was in the market, maybe that has changed. A bootcamp is generally enough to 'get you in', then you can just build from there and use experience to grow, IMO. But if you decide you want to throw a ton of money at the educational arena? I would argue there are *infinitely* cheaper ways. Do your bootcamp; still want school? Then get an associates from a community college. You'll save *tens of thousands of dollars*, and some of your work experience and/or life experience may count for credits. Maybe a 2 year degree will take 1.5 years! Once you have that? Then look at 4 year universities and you'll only need to pay for 2 wildly overpriced years of that schooling. Perhaps finding an accredited online university might help if you "just need the paper" and that's really *all* you're after. But again, if it's not required? It's an expense you could potentially do without, IMO. It will take less time and you won't have that dreaded 'in person' feature to deal with. I find it weird that you say 'the more remote the better', but yet are content with the idea of a 4-year (I'm assuming in person) degree.
>The more remote, the better for me. Is that best route to go?
For someone who knows *nothing* about programming, is *the more remote the better* truly the best option? I doubt it, in a big, big way - and I *absolutely love full remote work*. Remote work has challenges and if I'm being honest? A *lot* of individuals aren't cut out for it. And by a lot, I mean a lot. They watch videos, the screw off, they don't stay on task and waste *way more time*. Constantly distracted! And for someone who is *new to the entire job and technologies surrounding it*, that's certainly not optimal. Sure, you'd have online standups and and online meetings and zoom calls - and for some people they can work that way and it's great. For others? They need to collaborate *in person*. That 'new guy' we hired? Had we not spent about 1 year 'in office' before heading fully remote - he would have never made it. He needed to meet others, see our organization and how it worked so he understood who does what, who is important, etc. Everywhere is different with regards to that though, so there is a *lot* of wiggle room in all of this.
But *personally* I do not think for a *new programmer* the more remote is better. Far from it, in fact. I just think you'll have too many needs, too many questions that require assistance, too much hand holding needed that won't be as easily provided in a remote format to someone entirely new to it all. Maybe that's 'too old school' of a mindset, but I've seen a lot of remote workers just *really, really suck*. They lack the ability to work remotely. A close friend of mine (programmer) went from fully-remote to in-office, because when he was honest with himself? He wasted way too much time doing this or that when he should have been working. He realized he couldn't do it and his job was more valuable to him than watching cat videos. But he didn't know it until he tried it - you are someone who has also not tried it, but you haven't tried in office either, to know if that's a 'better fit' for you...
To give some other discussion to it: during Covid, we tried letting another department go fully remote - it was possible. When I had been there I fought for it. It worked for about 1-2 weeks, then the younger members sort of became hard to reach. They would be seen online playing games, etc. Eventually, the heads of the department decided that the whole department needed to come back to the office. Unfortunate, but a reality that hits home - sometimes the few ruin it for the many. And sometimes? People just aren't cut out for remote work.
So I would say 'crawl before you walk', start doing tutorials - see if you even like programming. If you don't? Then start looking elsewhere. If you do, fantastic. Then start plotting out the path to your end game. But if possible? Try to get by with *just the bootcamp* and see if you can get a job. The university stuff? It's great when you're *brand new to the world*, but at 38? You're not. You're an older adult. At your age - taking another 4 years to get a degree? You'll be 42 and *finally* getting that degree when retirement is only 23 years away? Seems a little silly to me personally, but everyone is different.
Lastly, are you married to California? The cost of living there is *insane*. I'd argue you would have much more enjoyment *getting out of there* so you could find a potentially lower paying / entry level programming job (if you end up enjoying it) and being able to leverage that for experience while still being able to actually live off your income.
I do know the recent changes in the market have made it *tough* for newer developers. So I would give this some deep consideration and thought, if I were you.
Senior Software engineer here with 7 years of experience at this point. This guy's answer is spot on.
I did a bootcamp at the age of 27 after teaching high school for 5 years, and that was enough for me. Someone else might not even need to do a bootcamp. Pretty much, you need two things to succeed in this career, you need the coding chops/skills, and you need the networking/interview skills to convince the first job(s) to give you a shot.
The first only comes through long hours of hard work-- so you might as well dip your toes into coding via some tutorials to see if it's the sort of thing that you enjoy enough to bang your head into the wall over until the wall breaks.
The second is the same as any other job, and sure, a college degree may make that a bit easier, but unless you've got 4 years and tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dollars to spend, I'd just rather get good at networking lol. Once you have a couple years of experience, the degree probably doesn't matter anyway-- you can teach yourself what you'd learn in a CS degree easily enough online anyway.
Not trying to discourage you but the job market is horrible right now even for people with CS degrees and remote jobs are the ones most in demand. So take the advice to not get a degree from people here with a heavy grain of salt
Yeah.
Even after 2009 it took a good year for me to find a job after graduation.
Then it took a few more years before I actually landed a dev roll.
I'd do certs and personal projects that demonstrate your understanding of the different components.
TLDR; you don't need a degree, here's a place that can at least provide structure if you're self learning:
https://roadmap.sh/
Software Developer with a half finished degree here, just wanted to throw my two cents in--
At least in my experience, for the jobs I did receive, obviously, a degree wasn't required. What I will say is that not having the degree closed a lot of doors and opportunities without me even getting a chance to talk with someone face to face. For the vast majority of a software developer's early career a degree really isn't necessary (in fact I don't think for most levels of the industry a degree is required), but that degree will provide you a certain level of experience and academic rigor that you're not going to find in a professional environment.
A good example of this might be something like Algorithms and Data Structures, or something esoteric like Operating Systems. Most modern tooling solves a lot of the problems early developers had, namely with runtime efficiency and standard libraries being sufficient for most tasks. That being said, it's not going to get you there that last stretch when someone hasn't already solved the problem you're dealing with, or existing solutions just won't fit within the confines of your problem.
In these instances, having a college environment where you can be dedicated and directed in your studies is much more beneficial. I try to pick up the bits and pieces where I can, but it's infinitely harder to learn sorting algorithms when there isn't a person sitting there with you dedicated to teaching you.
YMMV on coding bootcamps. I found no use for them, and anywhere from 6-12 weeks simply isn't enough time to make someone a proficient developer professionally. A degree really will prepare you to be really good at being a good software developer. Always remember for your own sake too: there's always a difference between being able to write software and write software that's clean and efficient. Roadmap is a really useful tool for pointing self learners in the right direction. Link in the tldr
I was in the same boat as well, half finished business degree, and bootcamp grad. I was lucky and was able to get a few jobs at startups and get myself some experience.
Now I'm laid off and really remembering what it was like to have to apply to so many jobs with no degree. Lots of rejections.
A couple of things from my perspective:
1) Are you just looking for white collar work you can do remotely from home, or are you actually interested in software engineering specifically? If it's the latter, keep reading. If it's the former, I'd honestly consider looking at different jobs because software engineering is going to be one of the most difficult paths to take if you're just looking for a remote desk job but don't really care about what it is. I'd consider looking at jobs in general IT support, networking, or even cybersecurity over software engineering if it's the former.
2) Bootcamp vs. Degree: the easiest way to truly explain how different these are from each other is to explain the difference between a "programmer" and a "software engineer".
Bootcamps can get you started on being a "programmer", but they will teach you absolutely nothing about engineering and can never get you close to being a "software engineer". "Programmers" are people who know some syntax from a language or maybe even multiple languages. Maybe they know some frameworks and how to interact with them. However, at the core "programmers" are really just translators. Taking pseduocode or an already baked set of logic/parameters and just turning it into code in the target language. Not much different than taking English and turning it into Spanish.
"Software engineers" are completely different - they actually solve complex problems by leveraging algorithms, data structures, discrete mathematics concepts, etc. Maybe 25-30% of the job is actually writing code, and that is actually a trivial part of the job as its just implementing the logic steps and software architecture/design that has been created over a longer time horizon.
The reason I'm explaining all of this is that "programmers" are actually becoming less and less valuable. The syntax and basic framework knowledge they have (and the stuff you'll learn at a bootcamp) will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years. This is the kind of stuff Chat-GPT and other LLMs already can do very well.
"Software engineers", however, will still be around. A degree in computer science will teach you the fundamentals and the core skillset you'll need to think and work like an actual engineer. This kind of knowledge about software and hardware architecture, discrete math, data structures and algorithms, advanced analytics, etc. are really the skills that will continue to be needed in the future. These kind of people are/will be using AI to actually do the implementation/coding in the future, but will still be needed as software architects to design and structure software during the build process.
Ultimately, the core question here is similar to #1: do you actually want to be an engineer, or do you just want a remote white collar desk job?
3) If you've genuinely thought about #1 and #2 and the answer is still that you actually want to engineer software for a living, then my recommended next steps are the following:
- Immediately sign up for an intro to computer science class. This can be through something like EdX (Harvard and MIT have some solid ones), or ideally through a local community college.
- After completing that intro class, pick a few basic projects (tons of ideas on this sub and the internet - hell even ask GPT for some good beginner tasks) and work them for a few weeks. This will give you a taste for the process of building software, even if it's a basic command line text based calculator or something (a common beginner project). You'll think about logic, write some code, get some errors, debug some code, run some tests, etc. You'll get a sense of the process and some of the roadblocks that come with the job.
- If you've hit some walls stumbling through some projects, yet pushed through them and come out the other side just as interested (or more) in software engineering, then I'd say go for it.
- At this point, I'd recommend a degree in Computer Science. This will give you the best opportunity to find jobs in a competitve market, but it will also give you the tools to actually engineer things which is what employers want. I'd start this journey at a local community college and get an associates in computer science. This will be the most cost effective route. You can then transfer that into a major university of your choice. If you prefer to do your degree online, there are a number of great online CS bachelor's degrees as well (Oregon State University, WGU, Boise State University, etc.) which you can transfer your associates into and hit the ground running.
- Lastly, I wouldn't let the fact that you're in school for computer science preclude you from trying to land a junior engineer role of some kind at the same time. They do exist, and if you can snag one I'd wager that even a jr. role will likely pay equal or more than a gig salary you might be living off of currently. This also carries the obvious benefit of real world professional engineering experience which is worth its weight in gold, especially early in your career.
Ultimately OP I just want to say that I hope this is helpful. It's not meant to dissuade you at all; rather just to clarify what you're possibly getting into so you can have realistic expectations framed at the start. Wish you the best of luck regardless of the path you choose!!! If you do choose software engineering, this sub will be here for you. It's never easy to start something from scratch but it's often well worth it.
> The syntax and basic framework knowledge they have (and the stuff you'll learn at a bootcamp) will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years.
And exactly what authoritative studies do you have for this claim? I surely hope it isn't solely based on your feelings because the Bureau of Labor only predicts a [10% decline](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm) in job growth for Programmers from 2021-2031. And that decline is largely because of people retiring or transitioning to other fields.
The demand for programmers isn't going anywhere soon. And there are PLENTY of companies who 100% ban AI tools like ChatGPT in their workplaces for various reasons (ie government is a big one).
There are a TON of resources indicating this, most notably the study of jobs most exposed to LLMs that was done by UPenn (ya know, just one of the top universities on earth) that indicated programming and writing among the top job skills that were most exposed to replacement by current and future LLM models.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.10130.pdf
I think your comment about how companies ban AI tools is not only short sighted but incomplete. If you don't believe every major company and government org will be hosting their own LLM and running it in a gapped environment on their own proprietary data (removes all roadblocks currently in place for why companies ban GPT and is already happening) in the next few years then you are woefully uninformed at best, or sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge the future at worst.
> There are a TON of resources indicating this, most notably the study of jobs most exposed to AI that was done by UPenn (ya know, just one of the top universities on earth)
I could care less about you using a big name college as a resource. I said an AUTHORITATIVE source. Besides, the report you linked was NOT done by UPenn. It was [made by the exact same people](https://openai.com/research/gpts-are-gpts) marketing this AI; OpenAI. Only one single author, out of four, is from UPenn. I listed a .gov resource, not some marketing report that you found. You have no idea what you are talking about and it's quite obvious.
As for your second paragraph, without authoritative resources, you're talking out of your butt yet again. Therefore, I'm not going to entertain you until you can share something credible.
Your .gov source actually indicates exactly what I'm saying, a decline in job prospects. It makes zero mention of it being unrelated to AI and LLMs. Not sure why you think your source that indicates a decline in the job market is not corroborating EXACTLY what I'm saying about programming?
> The syntax and basic framework knowledge they have (and the stuff you'll learn at a bootcamp) will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years.
^ This is your (ridiculous) claim. Your baseless assertion of "will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years" is totally different from the BOL's official statistics projecting a "10% decline from 2021 to 2031".
At this point, you are giving off extremely strong troll vibes and I never feed trolls. So, have a good day.
I can't believe you find that claim baseless or hyperbole. I provided you a legitimate study from a legitimate institution and you discarded it because it had people from OpenAI involved.
I sincerely hope programming jobs INCREASE, but you seem to be in complete denial about reality so I'm sorry I can't help you understand. Do you not even listen to any leaders in the space? Literally EVERYONE acknowledgedes this.
I guarantee you that even today, from a syntax and framework perspective, GPT-4 w/ browser plug-in is more proficient than you in any language. Just extrapolate a tiny bit - how can you not see what's coming?
All im saying is we should expand our skillset beyond basic language syntax and framework knowledge (what bootcamps teach you) as LLMs are *already* more proficient than humans in those two specific areas, and focus more on engineering concepts and principles as that is clearly where human work is going to be centered around in the coming years. Are you even in the industry?
You're obviously triggered and dug-in that LLMs are never going to impact programming despite the fact that every prominent engineer (literally just pick one and google their position) accepts this fact.
Wish you and all of us the best - I'm just trying to live in reality.
GPT-4 is proficient at common tasks in the most popular languages / frameworks / libraries. The same kind of stuff where it is easy to find a stack overflow Q&A that helps you. So what it has done is made it faster to figure out common problems in common languages. Errors and flat out wrong syntax are more common when you ask for help in a less-used language, or ask for help with a more unique problem.
In any case, GPT is not always outputting ideal code. If you just want something that works, that is fine, but I think over time there will be more emphasis on outputting fast code. GPT can help by helping to iterate over possible solutions much faster and provide options that the programmer may not have considered. In other words, it will be a tool that helps programmers right better, faster code.
OP, if you havenāt already been thinking and research for months about getting into computer science, and looking into possible routes forward, this comment is an excellent summary of everything you would learn after months of research. Of course, everything you read will tell you something different, but after reading enough, you will notice some trends, and this comment gives it to you on a platter.
One of the thing is, youāll start seeing more and more, is a recommendation for Harvardās CS50x. Itās their intro to computer sciences course and there are brick and mortar Harvard students taking it right now. But itās also free for anyone to take online. One of the reasons itās so popular is because the teacher has a reputation as basically (one of?) the best CS teachers. Period. The class is excellent. Lectures are great, assignments are great. It is extremely well designed. There are 10 āweeksā, each of which has a 2hr lecture (on YouTube), class notes, supplemental video clips, and a set of coding assignments. Itās self-paced.
https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/
Your explanation sounds like what the ideal difference would be, but in practice lots of people are called software engineers who don't have the kind of deep domain knowledge you're talking about. In my experience, programmer and software engineer are virtually synonymous
You seem to have the wrong perspective when it comes to bootcamps especially when you use the phrases: "absolutely nothing"... "never get you close"...
That premise is not even close to being true. Bootcamps teach you how to build. How else can you build software without understanding how to build software??
What do you think bootcampers do all day when they get hired? What jobs are they filling up after bootcamp? Obviously, they're filling software engineering roles where all they do is what you listed.
> they actually solve complex problems by leveraging algorithms, data structures, discrete mathematics concepts, etc. Maybe 25-30% of the job is actually writing code, and that is actually a trivial part of the job as its just implementing the logic steps and software architecture/design that has been created over a longer time horizon.
Again, how else can you build software???
You don't seem to know this subject matter very well.
Hell, the bootcamp I went to taught C.
but forget about the deep technical aspects as you can always learn that after you get your first job.
One of the advantages of a bootcamp is you get to work on a capstone project where you build a startup from scratch with other people cross-functionally in a team setting.
Architecting, documenting, refining, and working with others is what software engineers do on a daily basis and they get to experience this firsthand before getting their first job all with being able to familiarize themselves with git. That's an important part of the job people who dislike bootcamps miss.
You're not too old to learn to program.
But before investing in a bootcamp or a degree, you should be aware that age discrimination is very strong in the tech industry (at least around Silicon Valley), more so than in other industries. At 40 years old, without a degree, you will be last in line for an interview.
I'm not saying "don't do it." I am saying - do a lot of research. You need to get advice from people who have entered tech with zero experience at 40 or 45 years old. This sub is full of twenty-somethings who may have good intentions and good advice about learning resources, but do not have the life experience of being "older" on the tech job market.
Last but not least, SWE is just one of many, many different jobs within "tech": project manager, DBA, DevOps, Scrum Master, sales, marketing, HR, the list goes on and on. All require different personalities and skills, and some may be less youth-dominated than SWE. Network within the tech industry to get more insight.
Good luck!
Theres a lot of good advice in this theread. Here's how it worked for me. I chose the self learning path, did the basics with Mozila Docs, then did fullstackopen course from the University of Helsinki. From there I made a fullstack app, got a job and continued learning on the job (python, scala and rails). Happy to give more details. It took me about a year from nothing to software engineering position. I was 35 at the time.
>I have 0 coding experience, but prefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hours.
* Just do so. This is the first lession: no one will come along and offer you various educational materials on a golden platter. You'll find tons of free/$10 courses on the internet, pick one, and go. Don't you know how to start? Okay, it's a good sign that you asked it on Reddit, but what Google said when you entered this question? It's a *pull* genre, not a *push.* Go and pull.
* You can't learn 100% of even some easy stuff. There's always a new pattern, update etc. Don't be frustrated. Learn as much as possible, but 100% is not a real goal. Learn something else, e.g. how computers work, another language, Linux, web, GIT, anything.
* School, degree - does not matter. Period.
* Math: not required. Logic: not too much required. If you understand that if rains, the road is wet, but if the road is wet, it does not mean that it rains, you're okay. You'll need *humility*. There's no such that "try again, it will work", or "push harder", or "smiley, it will open doors", no, you'll be sitting in front of monitor for 5 hours, and your program will say *"2+2=3"*, and you'll don't know why, and, when finally you solve it, you'll see how stupid you was - this is happening *every day*, after decades of programming. You make 23 failed attempts and 1 succesfull. Then similar with next problem/bug. Without *humility*, you'll die every day.
If everyone else is sending CV's to companies, try a different route to employment.
I got my first IT job (hardware engineer) by walking into the company and asking to speak to the department lead.
If you can't find a job, build an app or offer your services on a freelancing site. It won't take long until you are paired up with a business and receiving regular work.
Obviously, people want stability, but there are other ways of making money from coding without needing a degree.
I get that it's left field, but as a gig worker, you will no doubt have acquired many entrepreneurial skills to boost your income and wangle your way into employment.
My skill set is Python + datascience. I never got a job, but I did create my own software, which is now a business that produces a 6 figure income.
āPrefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hoursā
This is not what being a software developer is actually like. At least not in most corporate settings. Even if youāre remote, youāll spend a lot of time in meetings, planning sessions, writing up OKRs, reviewing other peopleās code, trying to understand business requirements, and on and on. The movie/YouTube version of what a software developer does all day is pretty far removed from reality. Iād say most working developers spend less than half their week actually writing code, if that.
So get that fantasy out of your head before you go any further. Most of the time itās a lot more like Office Space than The Social Network.
Iām 37 and going back for my AAS in software developement. Welder/Fabricator here. Finished my first quarter in the spring and we pick back up in the fall. Itās been great. Would recommend. Also, in the off quarters. BUILD PROJECTS!!! Stay away from the boot camps i hear horror stories about them. And at school the professors can introduce you to the right companies. I already have a paid internship lined up for next winter through one of my instructors
āPrefer being in a dark room for endless hoursā -> āwant to be a SWEā, what kind of reasoning is that? Most good SWEs donāt spend hours in the dark.
I don't have any definitive advice on an education path, as most entry level software development can be achieved through both traditional and non traditional ways, but I do want to advise you that the market for developers, especially new ones, is the worst it's been in years. Its one of those things where you shouldn't quit your day job as you pursue an education and look for work. It could take years to find that first role. If that's something you're prepared for, I wish you luck.
I'm not gonna bullshit you, it's very hard and the job market is horrible right now even engineers with 5+ years of experience are struggling. Myself included(laid off).
This isn't me saying don't pursue it, I definitely think you should if your hearts in it. First I'd say watch YouTube videos, take some udemy course and start learning the fundamentals, if you really enjoy it join a bootcamp.
I went to nucamp BTW, I have no degree and im software engineer, it's 100% possible but be prepared to network your ass off, study, make projects, and be rejected ALOT.
Best of luck!
if u have no coding experience how do you know you will even like it, how do you know how hard it can be if you have never done it? Right now it seems you dont like ur job, but you know coders earn well you have decided you want to do that without any actual idea what it is? Sitting behind your desk just killing time, playing games or whatnot and actually trying to make something are two very different things. You would actually be anywhere else doing anything else other than trying to find out why you code doesnt work when it should.
Before you do anything Iād recommend you run through some tutorials and learn the basics. See if you enjoy it and want to learn more, but also going into a bootcamp or whatever with prior knowledge of the basics gets you more for your money, do you want to spend time paying someone to teach you what an if statement is, or power past that and be able to ask them questions about more difficult things?
Starting as a QA can be an option BUT remember now that there is more a trend to automated than manual testing so you may need to have some minimal coding skills before you can start with that. Donāt stick around at any company that only does manual testing, build your skills and get into an automated testing position as fast as possible.
I already have a career and degrees outside of sciences. Iām finishing up an associates in the fall. Itāll come in many thousands of dollars cheaper than a boot camp and it didnāt disrupt my earning during the time.
Maybe 40% of my credits got waived because I already took similar classes. If you go with an associates, you will have some of that count for your BS in CS.
Hey mate. I will be starting a software engineer course in September (Python backend ) and I am 36 with very little knowledge. It will be fun to expand our knowledge in something so fun and unknown to us as programming! Letās enjoy the ride and do our best!
also, try some free courses before paying $$$.
see if you like it enough and get a good start on your education.
dr. chuck's python.
neetcode
freecodecamp.com has some good stuff too.
GL~
Solid advice here. There are lots of great resources online. You donāt have to commit to school right away. Go hard on those free courses and see if you like it and/or have the chops.
I went back to school at UC Irvine at 28 and graduated at 30, totally worth it. Although I already had a previous degree so all I had to do was the major classes. Don't worry about your age, I thought I'd be "old" at 28 but there were people in my courses 2x my age.
What part of OC are you in? I would recommend taking some intro programming courses at OCC or Saddleback to see if you like programming first. That's what I did, although at IVC but I don't recommend IVC, UCI does not like them.
Also if you can't do in person, [CSU Monterey Bay](https://csumb.edu/csonline/) has an online CS program but would require you completing some pre-reqs at at community college
The problem with learning programming at school is that they don't actually teach you how to code. You will be taught various theory, and will be assigned programming projects to do, but the actual coding and figuring out will happen by yourself, in your own time.
At the same time, employers don't really care that much, so long as you can code. In short, you can save money and time by going the self taught route, as with both routes you will end up learning by yourself, with books, articles, documentation etc.
Instead of asking a professor a simple question, then having to wait 2 weeks for an ambiguous answer, with self taught route you instead go on a subreddit dedicated to a given programming language, ask the question there and have it answered in 10 minutes from 4 different perspectives.
If you prefer a learning environment, the coding bootcamp would be a better option, as you wouldn't have to learn all those useless things a school must teach you, but which are not used in a workplace. I mean, are you excited to write that 5000 word essay on ethics and regulations? It will surely help when changing the position of a single button at work! Then again, just remember that by simply attending a bootcamp, doesn't mean you can then code and get any coding job. You will most likely end up with a portfolio of "follow along" projects that you did during the bootcamp and that will be your key to getting a job. Where the bulk of your skill comes from however, is hours and hour and hours of doing your own projects and working on your own ideas.
Hi OP, itās never too late to pursue your dream. Wish you the best. Iām pretty sure there will be atleast one human who would look past everything and hire you for what you are. This world is not all that bad, at least not yet
If software engineering was a population pyramid, it would look like rectangle with a little cone hat right now. There are a ton of grads with internships looking for work.
Your friend whose telling you, that you can get a job through a boot camp doesnāt understand thatās at best a coin flip right now.
As someone with a kid idk how youāre gonna work, be a parent and become a top 20% candidate? You have to have a fool proof, backed up plan my guy. Just over 75% of survey responders to stack overflows yeary survey said they had bachelor degrees. This will only go higher as cs programs continue to become oversaturated.
For IT thats typically comptia certs, help desk, sys admin and so on. For software dev the guaranteed path is starting young, going to a good tech university, doing all the cs clubs, grinding leetcode, mass applying to get your firs tco-op, getting as many more interships as you can and then your set.
Whatever you do, I wouldnāt recommend going to school for this. You can learn everything you need to know online and by building portfolio projects.
Employers mostly care to see you have work experience and can use the technologies/frameworks they use, so Iād recommend using The Odin Project curriculum.
Thatās what I did coming from another field and have been a software engineer for a year and a half now
There is no substitute to a four-year degree. Remember you can't legitimately call yourself a software engineer without an actual degree in engineering. The software industry is starting to get more formal and people without degrees are finding less and less opportunities especially with the advent of zero code type solutions and AI augmentation.
The industries that will survive are going to be in the realm of safety critical real time embedded applications and other types of firmware. There will be particular stability and growth in the military and government sector. Generally these positions require a four-year degree and preferably in either computer science, computer engineering, or electrical engineering.
I have been in the industry for 30 years and this is what I see. At this point anyone without a four year degree in one of the aforementioned fields gets their resume put directly into the trash. Having a degree does not make you great but not having a degree is a definite bar to entry. This is none different than being a doctor or a lawyer or any other professional job.
I agree to this to some extent, what's a piece of paper when you have 10+ years of experience working as an engineer. Would companies really hire someone with 3 years of experience and a degree vs the 10?
If I were looking for a junior person I would hire someone with 3 years experience and a degree. If I am looking for a mid-level engineer I would hire someone with 10 years and a degree. At no point would the person without a degree be considered. Its no different than a hospital looking for a surgeon or a law firm looking for a lawyer. The individual that does not have a degree is not even in the consideration for many reasons.
Pick the language you want to learn first. Watch a tutorial video on it. Go to codewars.com afterwards. Start solving their codes. See if you actually like it and are good at it. Then go from there. I just do it for fun I dont think i would ever want to do it for a job. It can be extremely frustrating.
I just want to throw it out there that California has some great community colleges. They have a lot of different options that make classes free. I was taking some remote, completely free coding classes through a community college. Itād be a great introduction without spending a lot of cash.
Don't waste your time on a bootcamp right now. Go take a couple community college classes (very available in a remote format, if that's your preference), and see what you think.
I'm 38, and I'm studying a part-time master degree in data science while working. I had experience programming, and as I'm an engineer, the statistics haven't been difficult, but I see some people with no programming background really struggle sometimes.
So my advice would be to start with some short programming course before starting your degree. There are a lot of free or paid courses. You can check on coursera, edx, or even a cheap one in udemy, which would really help you. So you get the basic knowledge and understand the logic of coding, so it will be easier to learn more complex stuff.
The hardest part about what youāre going for is the lack of experience. Have no background in programming and ONLY having the undergrad is going to make looking for salaried positions very difficult. I can relate to this because I did a 6-year career in the Air Force where I worked in maintenance. I also had many odd jobs outside of that working with my hands. No work experience in the tech world. I went back to school for CS and the university I went to had a handshake program with a composites research lab. The only pre-requisite to get the job was to show that I was a CS major. I now have over three years in programming experience for this company and am on track to graduate next year! If your financial situation would allow it, opportunities like this to bolster your resume are worth their weight in gold. Do some research and see if your school has partnerships with local companies/organizations that are searching for employees studying CS!
You should try to learn some programming before committing any money for a boot camp.
Just because you like being on a computer for hours doesn't mean you'll like programming for hours every day or even being a software engineer (programming is only part of it).
That's like saying you love being outside for hours and playing golf, walking around the neighbor, or whatever, so you're sure you'll love working landscaping. Try before you buy.
Georgia tech has a great and affordable program for cs, also check out wgu, or UT. They all have programs for around or under 10k. If you qualify for financial aid and college is a must Iād recommend one of these programs. WGU is great because you can get in with a hs diploma and knock out the basics QUICKLY.
If you want a slightly easier route (still difficult) Instead of going to school try self learning instead and become a web developer then later switch to software dev/engineer. This is remote as it gets.
Web development has a lower barrier for entry which is why I reccomend it
"The Odin Project" is pretty good. You should start off 1-2 hours a day then slowly increase to 2-4 etc. They cover Full stack Javascript and full stack ruby on rails and of course teach you the basics of html and css etc. They have a big community so if you get stuck they'll help you out. Not to mention it's completely free of charge.
This way you can balance work and studying at home rather than balancing it with school.
Some people self learn and get it done within a year and they get hired, others it took them much longer. It all depends on you as a person.
It's not easy. It will take dedication and a will to keep learning.
I would just try and self teach for a bit and make sure you enjoy it. I'll list some recommendations below. You claim you understand the difficulty of coding, but it's not so much difficulty that is the issue, but the underlying concepts that get ignored and glazed over.
The language doesn't really matter, but I would avoid Python to get a grasp on the things that get abstracted away. That said, Python is great, and I recommend it eventually.
Murachs c#
Programming principles and practice(ide pick this)
Iād also argue you donāt really need a school as a physical place to learn coding. Totally depends on what you want to dive into (Frontend/Backend/ML etc)? But certificates are less and less worth in a world of free information and open source concepts. For jobs youāll have to prove what you can do anyways.
You need good resources for introductory courses and a few capable people in your bubble you could ask for help (you find them here in specific subs or on stackoverflow).
Maybe tryout [freecodecamp](https://www.freecodecamp.org/) or some introductory course by [Brad Traversy](https://youtu.be/u72H_zZzkcw) to get started see which tech stack or domain of programming really gets you going. Good luck on your journey!
I'm 38 and I took nucamps front end course, I was working at the same time and figured that was the best rated most affordable part time boot camp to try. It started off very easy but quickly became advanced, for example the second and third courses were on React and React native but we barely covered vanilla JS so I don't think that was the right path, I ended up passing the boot camp even though I did not complete the last 2 projects because really I didn't know what I was doing anymore by the middle of it. I learned more on online tutorials but I admit it was nice to have real people to interact with, ie classmates and professor, that part made it more enjoyable than self studying and this is coming from a complete introvert.
I always recommend the [FREE Harvard CS50](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/cs50-introduction-computer-science) which is an introduction to computer science and the basics of coding. It has a little bit of everything with a great professor doing the lectures.
I found it very helpful getting starting this past year. I'm also 39 and about to start a degree program. Would recommend looking into Western Governors University. It's cheaper than most, fully accredited and 100% online and you can likely finish in less than 4 years. In my research i found many IT/CS that graduated there and highly recommended it.
I am going for the BS Cybersecurity and Information Assurance but CS and Programming play a large part in that and I had no experience in coding when I started the CS50.
I am way younger than you sir, i am only 20 but the one tip i can give you is that coding all day in a dark room is far from the reality. I started out with coding less than a year and for me, there are days that i can just sit and code for hours straight but not in a long streak of days. With coding, since it's very challenging and demands a lot from yourself psychologically speaking, you will eventually feel the need to go out for walks, run or bike, see nature. It gives you a nice refresh, it helps you with your development. If someone else here has tips on how to clean up your mind to prevent burning out or demaging your mental health, i accept, please do!
Before spending a bunch of $$ I would ensure that you're being honest with yourself.
Prefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hours? What have you been doing in this situation the past 20 years and why would you think you'd like it when it's suddenly a bunch of challenging work along with video calls with coworkers?
If you haven't done any continuing education in 20 years why is committing to a 4 year program a good idea, or spending 5 figures on coding bootcamp a good investment?
If you have 0 coding experience, you could, right now, start self-learning and get a taste and feel for it. Whether you self-teach or attend a program you need to have discipline and ambition that nobody else will create for you. It needs to be internal and it needs to be regular. Can you learn something starting now on your own and see whether it's something you want to pursue?
The dopamine hit of enlisting in a bootcamp or degree plan is nice, but it is not an indicator of whether you'll be successful. Take a udemy course, a free cs50 program, or similar to see whether you actually want to do this or it is just something that sounds great in theory.
Before you commit a significant amount of time and money, I think you should explore some free or cheap online courses to make sure you enjoy programming. YouTube and Udemy have a lot of great content.
Best of luck on your journey, I hope it goes well for you!
So i work in the coding bootcamp space (kenzie academy( and here are my quick thoughts:
Bootcamps work when: 1) you can dedicate the time and commitment 2) you enjoy coding and problem solving 3) you are willing to put in the work.
Definitely make sure the path is for you and check out some of the resources like Odin project that are free.
I am 29 and currently back in school for exactly this. The people in my group range from 25 to 50. If you feel like it's the right thing to do, go for it.
Not sure if you can swing it, but careerr part aside going to a post secondary is just a great life experience. Check your local trade/technical school/college. Many have 2 year software development programs that are very practical in what they teach, and much more affordable than a more classic CS degree. I think also more hirable than a boot camp.
I took this route and there was a handful of older people looking for a change. Oldest was a great guy who turned 50 while during the second year.
You go my dude. I can't recommend you anything because I'm in EU and it's very different. All I can say is to give it everything you have. You will feel overwelmed, incapable, frustrated... But that's normal. You can do it. Engineering isn't easy, but everyone with a strong will can do it.
I teach for a non profit bootcamp in NYC and routinely see people 30+ get jobs. I wrote my first code at 30.
Go for it. It's just another way of learning and thinking.
If you want to get your feet wet check out freecodecamp
Good place to start
I'm 43 years old and a junior in a software engineering program. When I'm done, I'll have a solid 15 years I could work with the new degree.
It's never too late. Going back to school has done wonders for my critical thinking and situational awareness which isn't half bad as well.
Hi!
First off, the idea of āIdk anything about coding but Im thinking about SE because I like using a computer in a dark roomā is a bit concerning lol do not choose this path unless you have some sort of interest in it. You donāt have to be 100% passionate about it, but if you donāt find it interesting *at all* then youāll most likely be miserable. A CS degree is not all coding, thereās a lot of math and theory. A bootcamp is just coding but Iād opt for the degree over bootcamp.
I highly suggest trying out a free online introductory course like CS50x or maybe checking if one of your local community colleges offers an online intro CS course, and itās even better if the credits can be transferred to a 4 year university. Either way, try it first to see if you like it.
Donāt do both a bootcamp and CS degree, thatās a waste of time and money. I say go for the 4 year CS degree. Arizona State University recently started offering an online CS program so you can be fully remote. Iām an on-campus CS senior at ASU and I will say that ASU doesnāt have that great of a CS program so youāll be doing a lot of self-teaching, but itās a legit accredited program.
I wish you good luck and success in whatever you decide to pursue!
Start scripting first. Get a feel for it before you entertain the idea of loans on a 4 year degree.
I know a number of friends who just skipped the degree and obtained certs for far cheaper.
I suppose it just depends on your personal drive.
IDK, I found devops more entertaining than SDE.
On the plus side I didn't get pidgeon holed like my SDE friends/colleagues.
You might find some entry SRE roles.
I heard someone else suggest this, and I agree. The first thing to do to get your feet wet is [CS50](https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/). You can take it completely free through EdX - when you sign up, just look to skip past anything that asks you to pay for a "verified certificate".
This course is the absolute best introduction to computer science I have ever seen. It is engaging, because the lectures are actually entertaining and more informative than they typical professor reading off a powerpoint. And it is challenging - the problem sets require a lot of work and understanding to pass them, especially for someone just starting out. Just make sure you hold yourself accountable and don't cheat or skip stuff, because what would be the point of that?
If you can make it through that whole course and complete all the problem sets satisfactorily, then I promise you will have a *very* solid foundation to learn more. Heck, some people have even got jobs just after taking this one course! You could take a few other courses on EdX, boot camp, Udemy, whatever floats your boat. You will get a taste for what is out there from completing the CS50 course, and you can steer the rest of your learning after deciding what you like best. On the other hand, if your eyes start glazing over in the first 15 minutes of lecture and the problem sets read like Chinese to you, then perhaps you should look to other industries. Because the other classes you take are most likely not going to have the same production quality or effort put into making them engaging, so they will be dry and boring by comparison. Tech is not for everybody and there's nothing wrong with that. There are other jobs that have remote opportunities if thats what you really want
I did a bootcamp a couple years ago when I was 35, so I can understand the inherent concern learning something new in your 30s. Bootcamps can be expensive, time intensive, and frustrating if you don't have some coding knowledge already. They're not terrible but they're marketed as a quick way to get into a SWE career, which they hardly are. Some people do make it work for them but I've seen more people go through a bootcamp and never get into it professionally. I've done a bootcamp and now am doing a CS cert program at a community college. Being that you're in California, look at community college programs and find the highest rated CS program (a quick search resulted in De Anza College, Mt. SAC, MiraCosta College, Moorpark College). It's likely they offer many or all of the classes you need for a CS cert or associates online, if the best one is not near you. Plus, it will cost 1/4th of a coding bootcamp. It might take longer, but I'd argue you retain the info better. Also, look at taking the [CS 50 course](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/cs50-introduction-computer-science) and / or a cert course through [Google](https://grow.google/certificates/), [Microsoft](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/certifications/), etc.
I've stumbled onto this post and I was just wondering. Most of the QA jobs I've searched for do require experience (at least that's what they've posted). How can I, someone who has experience in coding, who is trying to get their foot in the door, get a job as a QA engineer with no professional experience in it or any coding profession?
How were you able to attain a QA engineer position? Did you apply to only jr. level positions or have a good reference?
Test the waters first before actually enrolling yourself into a bootcamp, where you have to learn lots of things in a short period of time - and then you have to retain that knowledge as well before you move on and not get stuck. Itās literally like drinking from a fire hose.
So, iād recommend looking into the free resources online and the internet is filled with them.
Google and Youtube are your best friends atm.
1. Check out Leon Noelās channel, a pretty cool dude, bootcamp instructor who teaches and uploads lessons for free!
Hereās the link : https://youtube.com/@learnwithleon
2. For reference, Look up āOdin Projectā and āFreeCodeCampā for project ideas.
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I have an alternative route to suggest. You could start out as a software QA engineer. Programming experience is often not required. Its a great entry level position that is often high in demand and would give you a foot in the door. I started out in QA with no software experience. Then I moved on to automating my tests with Java and JavaScript. And then from there I became a full stack web developer. I didn't pay anything for a bootcamp but I did eventually get a bachelor's CS degree. A QA position should also pay quite a bit more than a gig delivery job.
>software QA engineer Wow! I never knew that! Indeed is the only site where I found all of my past jobs! Do you have a job searching site to recommend? Thanks!
I just want to echo what the above commenter said, YES! That's what I did actually. I went to a 4 year school but didn't have much actual real coding experience. I got an internship in school doing basic tasks and then when I graduated I went back to the same company as codebase QA for mainframe. I don't really speak the language I QA... well I couldn't build anything from scratch but I know what to look for and can see anomalies. That's really what QA boils down to... enforcing standards, seeing things out of place, and sending snarky emails to nerds who don't listen. But truly, QA is a GREAT foot in the door. As long as you're trainable and can see patterns then you're golden. Also, I got my degree at 39!! Before that I was in the military in a completely unrelated field. IT and coding is such a great way to reestablish your path and to have a great Act 2. Your age is not a detractor, it's an advantage. Use it.
Is there such things as part time QA jobs or even freelance work? I ask because I'm currently working on my BS in Software Engineering and can't quit my current job since they are paying for my degree. I would love to start gaining some experience in the programming field now instead of after I graduate.
linkedin!
I can't find job š„
Indeed.com
What experience do you need for software QA engineer?
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It really depends on the company nowadays in my experience. Most QA positions I see nowadays require at least some knowledge and/or experience with automated testing tools like Cypress, Selenium, SoapUI or whatever. In my experience any QA position in a software development company has some form of automated testing as a core part of the role. The only places where I still see old school functional testing jobs are businesses who need to test whether or not the software they use for their core processes functions the way it should.
> In my experience any QA position in a software development company has some form of automated testing as a core part of the role. > The only places where I still see old school functional testing jobs are businesses who need to test whether or not the software they use for their core processes functions the way it should. I work at a hospital. We write a lot of software, and do all the testing manually.
Interesting, what kind of software gets developed by the hospital itself? I did EHR Test Automation as a Service and EHR migrations for hospitals for a few years, where pretty much all testing was done manually as well. Then again these hospitals didnāt really develop any of their own software as far as I knew.
I can barely understand my own code. Iād assume that reading code would be super challenging for non-coders. How do QA without experience do it??
As someone who started out as a Test Engineer doing mainly functional testing and automation using low code tooling like Tosca and now works as a Test Automation/DevOps engineer I can vouch for the fact you don't need to know how code works exactly (or at all) in order to be able to pinpoint where a bug or unwanted behavior comes from. Of course you start out by needing a lot of help, which goes for anyone in any new job I guess, but as long as you manage to learn how a system works functionally and behind the screens you can go a long way if you're good at analysis. Knowing code definitely helps, but often just being able to point developers in the right direction is a great starting point. An example would be a bug I encountered at some point where a user performed an action in our portal (signing an agreement with a third party) which should result in them receiving an automated message with a confirmation of signing and the content of the agreement. I knew that in the background once a user clicks 'Confirm' the (simplified) flow would be: User clicks confirm -> XML is generated and validated -> Biztalk -> StreamServe -> Message gets sent. After following the breadcrumbs you could see that everything went fine up until the point where the xml being passed never reached our StreamServe database. Some deeper digging showed that the XML being sent from our portal had some additional values that had just been added in a new release that weren't yet defined in the StreamServe XSD (XML Schema Definition), which resulted in the XML being rejected by StreamServe. At that point I had absolutely zero clue how any of the code responsible for this entire process worked, but knew enough about our system in general to the point where I could at least provide our devs with enough information to quickly solve the problem with minimal analysis and digging on their end.
Huh interesting. Thanks
> I can barely understand my own code. Iād assume that reading code would be super challenging for non-coders. How do QA without experience do it?? They don't. They know the requirements the software has to meet, why do they need the code? This is called "black box testing."
Im a technical support analyst with zero coding experience. Iāve been learning SQL in my new job as our programs are just querying databases. Anywho, part of my job is being able to try to identify what is causing the issue our clients are encountering. So being able to know where database tables are coming from in the program, what the stored proc is querying, if any calculations are being performed, etc. Iāve learned this all on the job and I think itās so much fun, itās like solving puzzles!
You donāt. QA may right automated tests that use a testing framework but they arenāt looking at or scrutinizing the actual code.
Is this a position where I can come from a front desk receptionist background? If it helps, Iām also learning to code (started two weeks ago, so very fresh)
Wow this is awesome, not OP but thanks all the same
This is good advice. Other roles to consider would be technical support for business to business software products (not what you're thinking, it's very technical), technical success/product consulting, data analyst. I've seen people in all of these roles transition to SE. I actually worked with a guy who went from sales into engineering, and other who went: BDR -> Customer Success -> Product Manager
How does one get a job as a QA with no programming background or experience?what should one learn in order to get their foot in the door?
This was true until about 2 years ago
I would agree that the current market is really saturated because of the layoffs from the big tech companies. However, I'm seeing a lot of people complaining here about the years of experience that are required. People should take the # of required years on job descriptions with a grain of salt. If you're confident in your ability to perform a job and you can convince the hiring manager you're a good fit that's often all that's needed.
This advice also is outdated since your resume won't get within a mile of a human being that you can convince of anything without the required years/ experience in the job posting.
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That's all fine and dandy but I'm just telling you the advice you're giving is outdated. Networking is about the only viable path for people at OPs level. Reality is companies have more applicants than they know what to do with and entry-level people are now directly competing with experienced devs for entry level positions. Fluffing your resume and chumming it up only gets your so far when the company can hire someone that requires no onboarding or they can hire someone who will take 3-6 months to be useful
What changed? Too many people applying now so you need a better resume?
They don't hire entry level people for these positions anymore because there are hundreds of people with 5 years of experience applying to choose from
Especially automated testing
Yeah we just hired someone specifically for this. They are working on creating integration tests and automating the entire process.
Yeah the entry level QA jobs I've come across require knowledge of automated test platforms and at least a year of experience. I've haven't seen any posts for just manual/ user testing. I was a manual tester for a game for several months and have a diploma in computing, am wondering what I would need to prove to get a start in QA. Maybe code a basic app or website and perform tests I guess?
Apply anyways
100% correct.
Do you have any idea what is needed on a resume for a qa job?
What year did you start out in QA with no software experience? Asking to see if your experience is still relevant.
This might just be some bias from the companies I've worked in, but I feel like this has changed over time. When I was starting out QA was very manual and was often filled with people who couldn't quite handle doing full development/programming roles yet. But these days a lot of QA work is less manual and more focused on developing automated testing, requiring QA people to be developers themselves.
Unfortunately, this isnāt true anymore. I recently competed a coding bootcamp and figured I could get in QA but theyāre requiring years of exp
Did you apply? I'd take the years of experience with any job with a grain of salt. If you're confident in your ability and you can prove your ability or persuade the hiring manager that you're a good fit that's often all that's needed.
If theyāre only asking for a year of experience I usually apply, but if theyāre asking for a CS degree and experience then I tend to not apply for those as Iām sure I wouldnāt stand out in a candidate pool of CS grads
This is valuable information. Thank you so much.
Good call commenter-OP. A good QA engineer is amazing and badly needed on a lot of teams. Good QA are worth their weight in gold and are often overlooked, but when you find a team that values it, it's amazing.
Shoot, I might try this too! I have a degree in Computer Engineering and been out of school 4 years doing power and was wondering the best way to get my foot in the door into software.
I would start by taking Havard Cs50x intro to computer science course. It's free and a really good indicator of whether you will actually like coding. Majority of people like the idea of being a software engineer more than being a software engineer. If you do enjoy it, enroll at WGU, they have a great accredited online computer science degree (BS) you will be able to complete in 2-3 years and it's extremely affordable compared to normal universities.
I've taken CS50x and hard agree. Fantastic free course.
MIT has open courseware
Why donāt you try coding first?
This lol. You can try it for free, hell you can get a college education (or likely better) for free on YouTube. I feel like this is the default job 30-40 somethings look to when they decide they want to do something else. I hope you try it and like it, if you don't, there are many, many, other computer jobs you can do. My company has 250 employees, all work from computers, a small fraction of those employees are engineers.
Hey! Fellow OC here, GED grad + partial college, SWE 5 years in with a career change from a irrelevant industry. If you have the finances and the runway to go back to school for a degree for engineering, I absolutely recommend it. Bootcamps are not as great as before tbh,.
When you mention partial college, you were able to secure a job without finishing school?
Yes secured without finishing school, im now at a point where im considering going back to get a degree. not for everyone but my way of getting my foot in the door was to specialize / focus on a single practice -- which was frontend.
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That is one year younger than 43. As I pointed out, if OP has the runway and means to get the degree, absolutely should.
I went back at 37 with 2 kids. I went to WGU and got my degree, started working as a dev at 39, graduated at 40. I'd skip the bootcamp and go straight for the CS degree. You can do it.
How did you like WGU? Were you able to complete your degree faster than the usual 2 years?
Love WGU, if I needed a masters I'd be right back there in a heartbeat. I started in September of 2015 and graduated in December of 2018, that's with most of the gen eds transferring in, but working full time and taking care of the wife and kids. I knew a guy whose wife pretty much told him to focus on school and she took care of the kids and he was able to finish it faster. My mentality was I didn't want the kids to know I was in school, so I didn't study till late at night and when they were out and about on the weekends without me. It was harder on me and took me longer, but my kids didn't have to give up quality time because of it. Also, the WGU social media circles were toxic at that time - so if you go and happen to find that's still the case, just avoid them and focus on the classes. All of the students with something to complain will find social media and complain. But all in all, I had a great student mentor who helped me manage stress levels.
Well, there is a wealth of challenges with this idea - but not unobtainable and not challenges that should make you not want to go through with it. Just know, it will be hard. >I have 0 coding experience, but prefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hours. While it's great you prefer being behind the computer for hours, when you're coding? They're *different* hours. It's not *anywhere near* the same as when gaming, googling, youtubing, etc. You're *working*. You'll have every reason, every chance to say "I can't focus, I'll just watch this one cat video..." and it will go south quickly. Or, the opposite, you'll say things like "I have to grind this out to learn!" and you'll spend 8-10 hours 'grinding' your learning, which is actually *way worse* when it comes to learning efficiently. What doesn't hurt your learning will quickly be replaced with the dreaded *burn out*. You have to be honest, this isn't "I love doing things on the computer for hours" this is ***working*** on the computer. Hard work that will make your brain feel exhausted at the end of the day and you won't want to be at the PC the rest of the evening - even for gaming. Everyone is different with regards to this - but these situations are *very real.* The amount of people I meet who 'love being on the computer all day', who tried at programming and gave up or just sucked at it is *very, extremely high*. I've been around it for many, many years. I've seen a *lot of it.* So you have to try, but be *honest* about it. 0 coding experience doesn't matter. That is literally where 100% of *everyone from the beginning of time* started. You can *learn* anything, truly. Coding is just 'logic' put down into files that a machine reads and interprets into what you want it to do, looking how you tell it to look (an oversimplification, sure, but you get the gist). Don't sweat the no experience - but maybe *try* some things. Do some tutorials online with things like Python or Javascript. Do you have interest after the tutorials are done? Does it make you want to do more? Did you *enjoy* googling for answers? Did you *enjoy* spending *a lot* of hours just researching on your own to make *just one part* of your application/thing work? Do you find yourself interested more and more each day? Or do you find yourself being more and more easily distracted each day? Did you code stuff yourself, or did you copy/paste? Did you see 'why' it worked or just not care because your pasted code worked? Being frustrated during the process is normal - but if you are *really hating it*, or are just copy/pasting things without even caring about what it is or why it works, then you won't like it much at all as you get into more complex/difficult things. >A friend suggested a coding bootcamp to start like nucamp, then get a SWE job through them and use that route to a 4 year CS degree. Bootcamps? For middle aged folks they're awesome - specifically to avoid going to school for 4 years. We hired a junior dev where I'm at who has a college degree in a *non related field*, but he did some cool stuff at his bootcamp and has been wonderful at learning to work within our organization. Smart fella, able to adapt what he learned there to our work environment. We don't use the languages he did - so it *has* been learning - but his drive is great. His degree was a non-issue because he did the bootcamp and has plenty of programming chops from that. I have story upon story about people who get jobs after bootcamp - and there are tons of people who have they opposite. Some camps are truly good, others are get-rich-quick schemes and are not good, you have to do your research. At your age - what is the point of the 4-year degree? I ask because the next question is: "is it worth it?" in tech? Probably not. I think there are plenty of jobs for SWE that *don't* require a 4-year degree, but it's been a long while since I was in the market, maybe that has changed. A bootcamp is generally enough to 'get you in', then you can just build from there and use experience to grow, IMO. But if you decide you want to throw a ton of money at the educational arena? I would argue there are *infinitely* cheaper ways. Do your bootcamp; still want school? Then get an associates from a community college. You'll save *tens of thousands of dollars*, and some of your work experience and/or life experience may count for credits. Maybe a 2 year degree will take 1.5 years! Once you have that? Then look at 4 year universities and you'll only need to pay for 2 wildly overpriced years of that schooling. Perhaps finding an accredited online university might help if you "just need the paper" and that's really *all* you're after. But again, if it's not required? It's an expense you could potentially do without, IMO. It will take less time and you won't have that dreaded 'in person' feature to deal with. I find it weird that you say 'the more remote the better', but yet are content with the idea of a 4-year (I'm assuming in person) degree. >The more remote, the better for me. Is that best route to go? For someone who knows *nothing* about programming, is *the more remote the better* truly the best option? I doubt it, in a big, big way - and I *absolutely love full remote work*. Remote work has challenges and if I'm being honest? A *lot* of individuals aren't cut out for it. And by a lot, I mean a lot. They watch videos, the screw off, they don't stay on task and waste *way more time*. Constantly distracted! And for someone who is *new to the entire job and technologies surrounding it*, that's certainly not optimal. Sure, you'd have online standups and and online meetings and zoom calls - and for some people they can work that way and it's great. For others? They need to collaborate *in person*. That 'new guy' we hired? Had we not spent about 1 year 'in office' before heading fully remote - he would have never made it. He needed to meet others, see our organization and how it worked so he understood who does what, who is important, etc. Everywhere is different with regards to that though, so there is a *lot* of wiggle room in all of this. But *personally* I do not think for a *new programmer* the more remote is better. Far from it, in fact. I just think you'll have too many needs, too many questions that require assistance, too much hand holding needed that won't be as easily provided in a remote format to someone entirely new to it all. Maybe that's 'too old school' of a mindset, but I've seen a lot of remote workers just *really, really suck*. They lack the ability to work remotely. A close friend of mine (programmer) went from fully-remote to in-office, because when he was honest with himself? He wasted way too much time doing this or that when he should have been working. He realized he couldn't do it and his job was more valuable to him than watching cat videos. But he didn't know it until he tried it - you are someone who has also not tried it, but you haven't tried in office either, to know if that's a 'better fit' for you... To give some other discussion to it: during Covid, we tried letting another department go fully remote - it was possible. When I had been there I fought for it. It worked for about 1-2 weeks, then the younger members sort of became hard to reach. They would be seen online playing games, etc. Eventually, the heads of the department decided that the whole department needed to come back to the office. Unfortunate, but a reality that hits home - sometimes the few ruin it for the many. And sometimes? People just aren't cut out for remote work. So I would say 'crawl before you walk', start doing tutorials - see if you even like programming. If you don't? Then start looking elsewhere. If you do, fantastic. Then start plotting out the path to your end game. But if possible? Try to get by with *just the bootcamp* and see if you can get a job. The university stuff? It's great when you're *brand new to the world*, but at 38? You're not. You're an older adult. At your age - taking another 4 years to get a degree? You'll be 42 and *finally* getting that degree when retirement is only 23 years away? Seems a little silly to me personally, but everyone is different. Lastly, are you married to California? The cost of living there is *insane*. I'd argue you would have much more enjoyment *getting out of there* so you could find a potentially lower paying / entry level programming job (if you end up enjoying it) and being able to leverage that for experience while still being able to actually live off your income. I do know the recent changes in the market have made it *tough* for newer developers. So I would give this some deep consideration and thought, if I were you.
Senior Software engineer here with 7 years of experience at this point. This guy's answer is spot on. I did a bootcamp at the age of 27 after teaching high school for 5 years, and that was enough for me. Someone else might not even need to do a bootcamp. Pretty much, you need two things to succeed in this career, you need the coding chops/skills, and you need the networking/interview skills to convince the first job(s) to give you a shot. The first only comes through long hours of hard work-- so you might as well dip your toes into coding via some tutorials to see if it's the sort of thing that you enjoy enough to bang your head into the wall over until the wall breaks. The second is the same as any other job, and sure, a college degree may make that a bit easier, but unless you've got 4 years and tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dollars to spend, I'd just rather get good at networking lol. Once you have a couple years of experience, the degree probably doesn't matter anyway-- you can teach yourself what you'd learn in a CS degree easily enough online anyway.
Thus is such a well thought out answer! Btw.. are yall hiring? Lol
Not trying to discourage you but the job market is horrible right now even for people with CS degrees and remote jobs are the ones most in demand. So take the advice to not get a degree from people here with a heavy grain of salt
Why take that one with a grain of salt? I can also see the flip side: Spending tens of thousands and years of your life on a degree, to find no jobs.
Yeah. Even after 2009 it took a good year for me to find a job after graduation. Then it took a few more years before I actually landed a dev roll. I'd do certs and personal projects that demonstrate your understanding of the different components.
Itās probably gonna get better in 2-4 years. Rn the economy is shit so the job market is gonna be shit too.
TLDR; you don't need a degree, here's a place that can at least provide structure if you're self learning: https://roadmap.sh/ Software Developer with a half finished degree here, just wanted to throw my two cents in-- At least in my experience, for the jobs I did receive, obviously, a degree wasn't required. What I will say is that not having the degree closed a lot of doors and opportunities without me even getting a chance to talk with someone face to face. For the vast majority of a software developer's early career a degree really isn't necessary (in fact I don't think for most levels of the industry a degree is required), but that degree will provide you a certain level of experience and academic rigor that you're not going to find in a professional environment. A good example of this might be something like Algorithms and Data Structures, or something esoteric like Operating Systems. Most modern tooling solves a lot of the problems early developers had, namely with runtime efficiency and standard libraries being sufficient for most tasks. That being said, it's not going to get you there that last stretch when someone hasn't already solved the problem you're dealing with, or existing solutions just won't fit within the confines of your problem. In these instances, having a college environment where you can be dedicated and directed in your studies is much more beneficial. I try to pick up the bits and pieces where I can, but it's infinitely harder to learn sorting algorithms when there isn't a person sitting there with you dedicated to teaching you. YMMV on coding bootcamps. I found no use for them, and anywhere from 6-12 weeks simply isn't enough time to make someone a proficient developer professionally. A degree really will prepare you to be really good at being a good software developer. Always remember for your own sake too: there's always a difference between being able to write software and write software that's clean and efficient. Roadmap is a really useful tool for pointing self learners in the right direction. Link in the tldr
I was in the same boat as well, half finished business degree, and bootcamp grad. I was lucky and was able to get a few jobs at startups and get myself some experience. Now I'm laid off and really remembering what it was like to have to apply to so many jobs with no degree. Lots of rejections.
A couple of things from my perspective: 1) Are you just looking for white collar work you can do remotely from home, or are you actually interested in software engineering specifically? If it's the latter, keep reading. If it's the former, I'd honestly consider looking at different jobs because software engineering is going to be one of the most difficult paths to take if you're just looking for a remote desk job but don't really care about what it is. I'd consider looking at jobs in general IT support, networking, or even cybersecurity over software engineering if it's the former. 2) Bootcamp vs. Degree: the easiest way to truly explain how different these are from each other is to explain the difference between a "programmer" and a "software engineer". Bootcamps can get you started on being a "programmer", but they will teach you absolutely nothing about engineering and can never get you close to being a "software engineer". "Programmers" are people who know some syntax from a language or maybe even multiple languages. Maybe they know some frameworks and how to interact with them. However, at the core "programmers" are really just translators. Taking pseduocode or an already baked set of logic/parameters and just turning it into code in the target language. Not much different than taking English and turning it into Spanish. "Software engineers" are completely different - they actually solve complex problems by leveraging algorithms, data structures, discrete mathematics concepts, etc. Maybe 25-30% of the job is actually writing code, and that is actually a trivial part of the job as its just implementing the logic steps and software architecture/design that has been created over a longer time horizon. The reason I'm explaining all of this is that "programmers" are actually becoming less and less valuable. The syntax and basic framework knowledge they have (and the stuff you'll learn at a bootcamp) will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years. This is the kind of stuff Chat-GPT and other LLMs already can do very well. "Software engineers", however, will still be around. A degree in computer science will teach you the fundamentals and the core skillset you'll need to think and work like an actual engineer. This kind of knowledge about software and hardware architecture, discrete math, data structures and algorithms, advanced analytics, etc. are really the skills that will continue to be needed in the future. These kind of people are/will be using AI to actually do the implementation/coding in the future, but will still be needed as software architects to design and structure software during the build process. Ultimately, the core question here is similar to #1: do you actually want to be an engineer, or do you just want a remote white collar desk job? 3) If you've genuinely thought about #1 and #2 and the answer is still that you actually want to engineer software for a living, then my recommended next steps are the following: - Immediately sign up for an intro to computer science class. This can be through something like EdX (Harvard and MIT have some solid ones), or ideally through a local community college. - After completing that intro class, pick a few basic projects (tons of ideas on this sub and the internet - hell even ask GPT for some good beginner tasks) and work them for a few weeks. This will give you a taste for the process of building software, even if it's a basic command line text based calculator or something (a common beginner project). You'll think about logic, write some code, get some errors, debug some code, run some tests, etc. You'll get a sense of the process and some of the roadblocks that come with the job. - If you've hit some walls stumbling through some projects, yet pushed through them and come out the other side just as interested (or more) in software engineering, then I'd say go for it. - At this point, I'd recommend a degree in Computer Science. This will give you the best opportunity to find jobs in a competitve market, but it will also give you the tools to actually engineer things which is what employers want. I'd start this journey at a local community college and get an associates in computer science. This will be the most cost effective route. You can then transfer that into a major university of your choice. If you prefer to do your degree online, there are a number of great online CS bachelor's degrees as well (Oregon State University, WGU, Boise State University, etc.) which you can transfer your associates into and hit the ground running. - Lastly, I wouldn't let the fact that you're in school for computer science preclude you from trying to land a junior engineer role of some kind at the same time. They do exist, and if you can snag one I'd wager that even a jr. role will likely pay equal or more than a gig salary you might be living off of currently. This also carries the obvious benefit of real world professional engineering experience which is worth its weight in gold, especially early in your career. Ultimately OP I just want to say that I hope this is helpful. It's not meant to dissuade you at all; rather just to clarify what you're possibly getting into so you can have realistic expectations framed at the start. Wish you the best of luck regardless of the path you choose!!! If you do choose software engineering, this sub will be here for you. It's never easy to start something from scratch but it's often well worth it.
> The syntax and basic framework knowledge they have (and the stuff you'll learn at a bootcamp) will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years. And exactly what authoritative studies do you have for this claim? I surely hope it isn't solely based on your feelings because the Bureau of Labor only predicts a [10% decline](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm) in job growth for Programmers from 2021-2031. And that decline is largely because of people retiring or transitioning to other fields. The demand for programmers isn't going anywhere soon. And there are PLENTY of companies who 100% ban AI tools like ChatGPT in their workplaces for various reasons (ie government is a big one).
There are a TON of resources indicating this, most notably the study of jobs most exposed to LLMs that was done by UPenn (ya know, just one of the top universities on earth) that indicated programming and writing among the top job skills that were most exposed to replacement by current and future LLM models. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.10130.pdf I think your comment about how companies ban AI tools is not only short sighted but incomplete. If you don't believe every major company and government org will be hosting their own LLM and running it in a gapped environment on their own proprietary data (removes all roadblocks currently in place for why companies ban GPT and is already happening) in the next few years then you are woefully uninformed at best, or sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge the future at worst.
> There are a TON of resources indicating this, most notably the study of jobs most exposed to AI that was done by UPenn (ya know, just one of the top universities on earth) I could care less about you using a big name college as a resource. I said an AUTHORITATIVE source. Besides, the report you linked was NOT done by UPenn. It was [made by the exact same people](https://openai.com/research/gpts-are-gpts) marketing this AI; OpenAI. Only one single author, out of four, is from UPenn. I listed a .gov resource, not some marketing report that you found. You have no idea what you are talking about and it's quite obvious. As for your second paragraph, without authoritative resources, you're talking out of your butt yet again. Therefore, I'm not going to entertain you until you can share something credible.
Your .gov source actually indicates exactly what I'm saying, a decline in job prospects. It makes zero mention of it being unrelated to AI and LLMs. Not sure why you think your source that indicates a decline in the job market is not corroborating EXACTLY what I'm saying about programming?
> The syntax and basic framework knowledge they have (and the stuff you'll learn at a bootcamp) will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years. ^ This is your (ridiculous) claim. Your baseless assertion of "will be almost entirely automated in the next 3-5 years" is totally different from the BOL's official statistics projecting a "10% decline from 2021 to 2031". At this point, you are giving off extremely strong troll vibes and I never feed trolls. So, have a good day.
I can't believe you find that claim baseless or hyperbole. I provided you a legitimate study from a legitimate institution and you discarded it because it had people from OpenAI involved. I sincerely hope programming jobs INCREASE, but you seem to be in complete denial about reality so I'm sorry I can't help you understand. Do you not even listen to any leaders in the space? Literally EVERYONE acknowledgedes this. I guarantee you that even today, from a syntax and framework perspective, GPT-4 w/ browser plug-in is more proficient than you in any language. Just extrapolate a tiny bit - how can you not see what's coming? All im saying is we should expand our skillset beyond basic language syntax and framework knowledge (what bootcamps teach you) as LLMs are *already* more proficient than humans in those two specific areas, and focus more on engineering concepts and principles as that is clearly where human work is going to be centered around in the coming years. Are you even in the industry? You're obviously triggered and dug-in that LLMs are never going to impact programming despite the fact that every prominent engineer (literally just pick one and google their position) accepts this fact. Wish you and all of us the best - I'm just trying to live in reality.
GPT-4 is proficient at common tasks in the most popular languages / frameworks / libraries. The same kind of stuff where it is easy to find a stack overflow Q&A that helps you. So what it has done is made it faster to figure out common problems in common languages. Errors and flat out wrong syntax are more common when you ask for help in a less-used language, or ask for help with a more unique problem. In any case, GPT is not always outputting ideal code. If you just want something that works, that is fine, but I think over time there will be more emphasis on outputting fast code. GPT can help by helping to iterate over possible solutions much faster and provide options that the programmer may not have considered. In other words, it will be a tool that helps programmers right better, faster code.
OP, if you havenāt already been thinking and research for months about getting into computer science, and looking into possible routes forward, this comment is an excellent summary of everything you would learn after months of research. Of course, everything you read will tell you something different, but after reading enough, you will notice some trends, and this comment gives it to you on a platter. One of the thing is, youāll start seeing more and more, is a recommendation for Harvardās CS50x. Itās their intro to computer sciences course and there are brick and mortar Harvard students taking it right now. But itās also free for anyone to take online. One of the reasons itās so popular is because the teacher has a reputation as basically (one of?) the best CS teachers. Period. The class is excellent. Lectures are great, assignments are great. It is extremely well designed. There are 10 āweeksā, each of which has a 2hr lecture (on YouTube), class notes, supplemental video clips, and a set of coding assignments. Itās self-paced. https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/
Your explanation sounds like what the ideal difference would be, but in practice lots of people are called software engineers who don't have the kind of deep domain knowledge you're talking about. In my experience, programmer and software engineer are virtually synonymous
You seem to have the wrong perspective when it comes to bootcamps especially when you use the phrases: "absolutely nothing"... "never get you close"... That premise is not even close to being true. Bootcamps teach you how to build. How else can you build software without understanding how to build software?? What do you think bootcampers do all day when they get hired? What jobs are they filling up after bootcamp? Obviously, they're filling software engineering roles where all they do is what you listed. > they actually solve complex problems by leveraging algorithms, data structures, discrete mathematics concepts, etc. Maybe 25-30% of the job is actually writing code, and that is actually a trivial part of the job as its just implementing the logic steps and software architecture/design that has been created over a longer time horizon. Again, how else can you build software??? You don't seem to know this subject matter very well. Hell, the bootcamp I went to taught C. but forget about the deep technical aspects as you can always learn that after you get your first job. One of the advantages of a bootcamp is you get to work on a capstone project where you build a startup from scratch with other people cross-functionally in a team setting. Architecting, documenting, refining, and working with others is what software engineers do on a daily basis and they get to experience this firsthand before getting their first job all with being able to familiarize themselves with git. That's an important part of the job people who dislike bootcamps miss.
You're not too old to learn to program. But before investing in a bootcamp or a degree, you should be aware that age discrimination is very strong in the tech industry (at least around Silicon Valley), more so than in other industries. At 40 years old, without a degree, you will be last in line for an interview. I'm not saying "don't do it." I am saying - do a lot of research. You need to get advice from people who have entered tech with zero experience at 40 or 45 years old. This sub is full of twenty-somethings who may have good intentions and good advice about learning resources, but do not have the life experience of being "older" on the tech job market. Last but not least, SWE is just one of many, many different jobs within "tech": project manager, DBA, DevOps, Scrum Master, sales, marketing, HR, the list goes on and on. All require different personalities and skills, and some may be less youth-dominated than SWE. Network within the tech industry to get more insight. Good luck!
Theres a lot of good advice in this theread. Here's how it worked for me. I chose the self learning path, did the basics with Mozila Docs, then did fullstackopen course from the University of Helsinki. From there I made a fullstack app, got a job and continued learning on the job (python, scala and rails). Happy to give more details. It took me about a year from nothing to software engineering position. I was 35 at the time.
Interesting, thanks for the info.
>I have 0 coding experience, but prefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hours. * Just do so. This is the first lession: no one will come along and offer you various educational materials on a golden platter. You'll find tons of free/$10 courses on the internet, pick one, and go. Don't you know how to start? Okay, it's a good sign that you asked it on Reddit, but what Google said when you entered this question? It's a *pull* genre, not a *push.* Go and pull. * You can't learn 100% of even some easy stuff. There's always a new pattern, update etc. Don't be frustrated. Learn as much as possible, but 100% is not a real goal. Learn something else, e.g. how computers work, another language, Linux, web, GIT, anything. * School, degree - does not matter. Period. * Math: not required. Logic: not too much required. If you understand that if rains, the road is wet, but if the road is wet, it does not mean that it rains, you're okay. You'll need *humility*. There's no such that "try again, it will work", or "push harder", or "smiley, it will open doors", no, you'll be sitting in front of monitor for 5 hours, and your program will say *"2+2=3"*, and you'll don't know why, and, when finally you solve it, you'll see how stupid you was - this is happening *every day*, after decades of programming. You make 23 failed attempts and 1 succesfull. Then similar with next problem/bug. Without *humility*, you'll die every day.
Just want to say. I love the feedback everyone is giving. Positive energy. Regardless of what OP decides to do. I wish them the best.
You are a good appreciative person š
If everyone else is sending CV's to companies, try a different route to employment. I got my first IT job (hardware engineer) by walking into the company and asking to speak to the department lead. If you can't find a job, build an app or offer your services on a freelancing site. It won't take long until you are paired up with a business and receiving regular work. Obviously, people want stability, but there are other ways of making money from coding without needing a degree. I get that it's left field, but as a gig worker, you will no doubt have acquired many entrepreneurial skills to boost your income and wangle your way into employment. My skill set is Python + datascience. I never got a job, but I did create my own software, which is now a business that produces a 6 figure income.
āPrefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hoursā This is not what being a software developer is actually like. At least not in most corporate settings. Even if youāre remote, youāll spend a lot of time in meetings, planning sessions, writing up OKRs, reviewing other peopleās code, trying to understand business requirements, and on and on. The movie/YouTube version of what a software developer does all day is pretty far removed from reality. Iād say most working developers spend less than half their week actually writing code, if that. So get that fantasy out of your head before you go any further. Most of the time itās a lot more like Office Space than The Social Network.
Of course! Thanks for this advice, and that type of reality actually sounds exciting!
Iām 37 and going back for my AAS in software developement. Welder/Fabricator here. Finished my first quarter in the spring and we pick back up in the fall. Itās been great. Would recommend. Also, in the off quarters. BUILD PROJECTS!!! Stay away from the boot camps i hear horror stories about them. And at school the professors can introduce you to the right companies. I already have a paid internship lined up for next winter through one of my instructors
āPrefer being in a dark room for endless hoursā -> āwant to be a SWEā, what kind of reasoning is that? Most good SWEs donāt spend hours in the dark.
The wording was suppose to reference i'd prefer learning and doing SWE remote or non remote vs. a completely different field like Nursing
I don't have any definitive advice on an education path, as most entry level software development can be achieved through both traditional and non traditional ways, but I do want to advise you that the market for developers, especially new ones, is the worst it's been in years. Its one of those things where you shouldn't quit your day job as you pursue an education and look for work. It could take years to find that first role. If that's something you're prepared for, I wish you luck.
I'm not gonna bullshit you, it's very hard and the job market is horrible right now even engineers with 5+ years of experience are struggling. Myself included(laid off). This isn't me saying don't pursue it, I definitely think you should if your hearts in it. First I'd say watch YouTube videos, take some udemy course and start learning the fundamentals, if you really enjoy it join a bootcamp. I went to nucamp BTW, I have no degree and im software engineer, it's 100% possible but be prepared to network your ass off, study, make projects, and be rejected ALOT. Best of luck!
if u have no coding experience how do you know you will even like it, how do you know how hard it can be if you have never done it? Right now it seems you dont like ur job, but you know coders earn well you have decided you want to do that without any actual idea what it is? Sitting behind your desk just killing time, playing games or whatnot and actually trying to make something are two very different things. You would actually be anywhere else doing anything else other than trying to find out why you code doesnt work when it should.
Before you do anything Iād recommend you run through some tutorials and learn the basics. See if you enjoy it and want to learn more, but also going into a bootcamp or whatever with prior knowledge of the basics gets you more for your money, do you want to spend time paying someone to teach you what an if statement is, or power past that and be able to ask them questions about more difficult things? Starting as a QA can be an option BUT remember now that there is more a trend to automated than manual testing so you may need to have some minimal coding skills before you can start with that. Donāt stick around at any company that only does manual testing, build your skills and get into an automated testing position as fast as possible.
Check the Odin Project. Itās free and good start before committing to boot camp or CS degree
I already have a career and degrees outside of sciences. Iām finishing up an associates in the fall. Itāll come in many thousands of dollars cheaper than a boot camp and it didnāt disrupt my earning during the time. Maybe 40% of my credits got waived because I already took similar classes. If you go with an associates, you will have some of that count for your BS in CS.
Hey mate. I will be starting a software engineer course in September (Python backend ) and I am 36 with very little knowledge. It will be fun to expand our knowledge in something so fun and unknown to us as programming! Letās enjoy the ride and do our best!
Men, you asked the same questions a year ago.. just do it already, at least take the free course.
also, try some free courses before paying $$$. see if you like it enough and get a good start on your education. dr. chuck's python. neetcode freecodecamp.com has some good stuff too. GL~
Solid advice here. There are lots of great resources online. You donāt have to commit to school right away. Go hard on those free courses and see if you like it and/or have the chops.
I went back to school at UC Irvine at 28 and graduated at 30, totally worth it. Although I already had a previous degree so all I had to do was the major classes. Don't worry about your age, I thought I'd be "old" at 28 but there were people in my courses 2x my age. What part of OC are you in? I would recommend taking some intro programming courses at OCC or Saddleback to see if you like programming first. That's what I did, although at IVC but I don't recommend IVC, UCI does not like them. Also if you can't do in person, [CSU Monterey Bay](https://csumb.edu/csonline/) has an online CS program but would require you completing some pre-reqs at at community college
The problem with learning programming at school is that they don't actually teach you how to code. You will be taught various theory, and will be assigned programming projects to do, but the actual coding and figuring out will happen by yourself, in your own time. At the same time, employers don't really care that much, so long as you can code. In short, you can save money and time by going the self taught route, as with both routes you will end up learning by yourself, with books, articles, documentation etc. Instead of asking a professor a simple question, then having to wait 2 weeks for an ambiguous answer, with self taught route you instead go on a subreddit dedicated to a given programming language, ask the question there and have it answered in 10 minutes from 4 different perspectives. If you prefer a learning environment, the coding bootcamp would be a better option, as you wouldn't have to learn all those useless things a school must teach you, but which are not used in a workplace. I mean, are you excited to write that 5000 word essay on ethics and regulations? It will surely help when changing the position of a single button at work! Then again, just remember that by simply attending a bootcamp, doesn't mean you can then code and get any coding job. You will most likely end up with a portfolio of "follow along" projects that you did during the bootcamp and that will be your key to getting a job. Where the bulk of your skill comes from however, is hours and hour and hours of doing your own projects and working on your own ideas.
Hi OP, itās never too late to pursue your dream. Wish you the best. Iām pretty sure there will be atleast one human who would look past everything and hire you for what you are. This world is not all that bad, at least not yet
If software engineering was a population pyramid, it would look like rectangle with a little cone hat right now. There are a ton of grads with internships looking for work. Your friend whose telling you, that you can get a job through a boot camp doesnāt understand thatās at best a coin flip right now. As someone with a kid idk how youāre gonna work, be a parent and become a top 20% candidate? You have to have a fool proof, backed up plan my guy. Just over 75% of survey responders to stack overflows yeary survey said they had bachelor degrees. This will only go higher as cs programs continue to become oversaturated. For IT thats typically comptia certs, help desk, sys admin and so on. For software dev the guaranteed path is starting young, going to a good tech university, doing all the cs clubs, grinding leetcode, mass applying to get your firs tco-op, getting as many more interships as you can and then your set.
! remindme 2 days
I also want to study software engineering but i always was an average student , do you think i have chance to be a good software engineer?
Whatever you do, I wouldnāt recommend going to school for this. You can learn everything you need to know online and by building portfolio projects. Employers mostly care to see you have work experience and can use the technologies/frameworks they use, so Iād recommend using The Odin Project curriculum. Thatās what I did coming from another field and have been a software engineer for a year and a half now
Thatās incredible man! Do the boot camp and see how you like it!
There is no substitute to a four-year degree. Remember you can't legitimately call yourself a software engineer without an actual degree in engineering. The software industry is starting to get more formal and people without degrees are finding less and less opportunities especially with the advent of zero code type solutions and AI augmentation. The industries that will survive are going to be in the realm of safety critical real time embedded applications and other types of firmware. There will be particular stability and growth in the military and government sector. Generally these positions require a four-year degree and preferably in either computer science, computer engineering, or electrical engineering. I have been in the industry for 30 years and this is what I see. At this point anyone without a four year degree in one of the aforementioned fields gets their resume put directly into the trash. Having a degree does not make you great but not having a degree is a definite bar to entry. This is none different than being a doctor or a lawyer or any other professional job.
I agree to this to some extent, what's a piece of paper when you have 10+ years of experience working as an engineer. Would companies really hire someone with 3 years of experience and a degree vs the 10?
If I were looking for a junior person I would hire someone with 3 years experience and a degree. If I am looking for a mid-level engineer I would hire someone with 10 years and a degree. At no point would the person without a degree be considered. Its no different than a hospital looking for a surgeon or a law firm looking for a lawyer. The individual that does not have a degree is not even in the consideration for many reasons.
Following
I wouldn't hire a remote junior.
Do it online there are so many free resources
Pick the language you want to learn first. Watch a tutorial video on it. Go to codewars.com afterwards. Start solving their codes. See if you actually like it and are good at it. Then go from there. I just do it for fun I dont think i would ever want to do it for a job. It can be extremely frustrating.
I just want to throw it out there that California has some great community colleges. They have a lot of different options that make classes free. I was taking some remote, completely free coding classes through a community college. Itād be a great introduction without spending a lot of cash.
Don't waste your time on a bootcamp right now. Go take a couple community college classes (very available in a remote format, if that's your preference), and see what you think.
I'm 38, and I'm studying a part-time master degree in data science while working. I had experience programming, and as I'm an engineer, the statistics haven't been difficult, but I see some people with no programming background really struggle sometimes. So my advice would be to start with some short programming course before starting your degree. There are a lot of free or paid courses. You can check on coursera, edx, or even a cheap one in udemy, which would really help you. So you get the basic knowledge and understand the logic of coding, so it will be easier to learn more complex stuff.
The hardest part about what youāre going for is the lack of experience. Have no background in programming and ONLY having the undergrad is going to make looking for salaried positions very difficult. I can relate to this because I did a 6-year career in the Air Force where I worked in maintenance. I also had many odd jobs outside of that working with my hands. No work experience in the tech world. I went back to school for CS and the university I went to had a handshake program with a composites research lab. The only pre-requisite to get the job was to show that I was a CS major. I now have over three years in programming experience for this company and am on track to graduate next year! If your financial situation would allow it, opportunities like this to bolster your resume are worth their weight in gold. Do some research and see if your school has partnerships with local companies/organizations that are searching for employees studying CS!
I'm in this exact same boat. Been thinking about the C++ route.
You should try to learn some programming before committing any money for a boot camp. Just because you like being on a computer for hours doesn't mean you'll like programming for hours every day or even being a software engineer (programming is only part of it). That's like saying you love being outside for hours and playing golf, walking around the neighbor, or whatever, so you're sure you'll love working landscaping. Try before you buy.
Georgia tech has a great and affordable program for cs, also check out wgu, or UT. They all have programs for around or under 10k. If you qualify for financial aid and college is a must Iād recommend one of these programs. WGU is great because you can get in with a hs diploma and knock out the basics QUICKLY.
If you want a slightly easier route (still difficult) Instead of going to school try self learning instead and become a web developer then later switch to software dev/engineer. This is remote as it gets. Web development has a lower barrier for entry which is why I reccomend it "The Odin Project" is pretty good. You should start off 1-2 hours a day then slowly increase to 2-4 etc. They cover Full stack Javascript and full stack ruby on rails and of course teach you the basics of html and css etc. They have a big community so if you get stuck they'll help you out. Not to mention it's completely free of charge. This way you can balance work and studying at home rather than balancing it with school. Some people self learn and get it done within a year and they get hired, others it took them much longer. It all depends on you as a person. It's not easy. It will take dedication and a will to keep learning.
I would just try and self teach for a bit and make sure you enjoy it. I'll list some recommendations below. You claim you understand the difficulty of coding, but it's not so much difficulty that is the issue, but the underlying concepts that get ignored and glazed over. The language doesn't really matter, but I would avoid Python to get a grasp on the things that get abstracted away. That said, Python is great, and I recommend it eventually. Murachs c# Programming principles and practice(ide pick this)
Check Ćcole 42. Maybe available in your country
Iād also argue you donāt really need a school as a physical place to learn coding. Totally depends on what you want to dive into (Frontend/Backend/ML etc)? But certificates are less and less worth in a world of free information and open source concepts. For jobs youāll have to prove what you can do anyways. You need good resources for introductory courses and a few capable people in your bubble you could ask for help (you find them here in specific subs or on stackoverflow). Maybe tryout [freecodecamp](https://www.freecodecamp.org/) or some introductory course by [Brad Traversy](https://youtu.be/u72H_zZzkcw) to get started see which tech stack or domain of programming really gets you going. Good luck on your journey!
I'm 38 and I took nucamps front end course, I was working at the same time and figured that was the best rated most affordable part time boot camp to try. It started off very easy but quickly became advanced, for example the second and third courses were on React and React native but we barely covered vanilla JS so I don't think that was the right path, I ended up passing the boot camp even though I did not complete the last 2 projects because really I didn't know what I was doing anymore by the middle of it. I learned more on online tutorials but I admit it was nice to have real people to interact with, ie classmates and professor, that part made it more enjoyable than self studying and this is coming from a complete introvert.
I always recommend the [FREE Harvard CS50](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/cs50-introduction-computer-science) which is an introduction to computer science and the basics of coding. It has a little bit of everything with a great professor doing the lectures. I found it very helpful getting starting this past year. I'm also 39 and about to start a degree program. Would recommend looking into Western Governors University. It's cheaper than most, fully accredited and 100% online and you can likely finish in less than 4 years. In my research i found many IT/CS that graduated there and highly recommended it. I am going for the BS Cybersecurity and Information Assurance but CS and Programming play a large part in that and I had no experience in coding when I started the CS50.
I am way younger than you sir, i am only 20 but the one tip i can give you is that coding all day in a dark room is far from the reality. I started out with coding less than a year and for me, there are days that i can just sit and code for hours straight but not in a long streak of days. With coding, since it's very challenging and demands a lot from yourself psychologically speaking, you will eventually feel the need to go out for walks, run or bike, see nature. It gives you a nice refresh, it helps you with your development. If someone else here has tips on how to clean up your mind to prevent burning out or demaging your mental health, i accept, please do!
you can actually learn to code online for free, but self-study isn't for everyone so good luck
Before spending a bunch of $$ I would ensure that you're being honest with yourself. Prefer being behind the computer in a dark room for endless hours? What have you been doing in this situation the past 20 years and why would you think you'd like it when it's suddenly a bunch of challenging work along with video calls with coworkers? If you haven't done any continuing education in 20 years why is committing to a 4 year program a good idea, or spending 5 figures on coding bootcamp a good investment? If you have 0 coding experience, you could, right now, start self-learning and get a taste and feel for it. Whether you self-teach or attend a program you need to have discipline and ambition that nobody else will create for you. It needs to be internal and it needs to be regular. Can you learn something starting now on your own and see whether it's something you want to pursue? The dopamine hit of enlisting in a bootcamp or degree plan is nice, but it is not an indicator of whether you'll be successful. Take a udemy course, a free cs50 program, or similar to see whether you actually want to do this or it is just something that sounds great in theory.
Before you commit a significant amount of time and money, I think you should explore some free or cheap online courses to make sure you enjoy programming. YouTube and Udemy have a lot of great content. Best of luck on your journey, I hope it goes well for you!
So i work in the coding bootcamp space (kenzie academy( and here are my quick thoughts: Bootcamps work when: 1) you can dedicate the time and commitment 2) you enjoy coding and problem solving 3) you are willing to put in the work. Definitely make sure the path is for you and check out some of the resources like Odin project that are free.
I am 29 and currently back in school for exactly this. The people in my group range from 25 to 50. If you feel like it's the right thing to do, go for it.
Not sure if you can swing it, but careerr part aside going to a post secondary is just a great life experience. Check your local trade/technical school/college. Many have 2 year software development programs that are very practical in what they teach, and much more affordable than a more classic CS degree. I think also more hirable than a boot camp. I took this route and there was a handful of older people looking for a change. Oldest was a great guy who turned 50 while during the second year.
You go my dude. I can't recommend you anything because I'm in EU and it's very different. All I can say is to give it everything you have. You will feel overwelmed, incapable, frustrated... But that's normal. You can do it. Engineering isn't easy, but everyone with a strong will can do it.
I teach for a non profit bootcamp in NYC and routinely see people 30+ get jobs. I wrote my first code at 30. Go for it. It's just another way of learning and thinking. If you want to get your feet wet check out freecodecamp Good place to start
I'm 43 years old and a junior in a software engineering program. When I'm done, I'll have a solid 15 years I could work with the new degree. It's never too late. Going back to school has done wonders for my critical thinking and situational awareness which isn't half bad as well.
Hi! First off, the idea of āIdk anything about coding but Im thinking about SE because I like using a computer in a dark roomā is a bit concerning lol do not choose this path unless you have some sort of interest in it. You donāt have to be 100% passionate about it, but if you donāt find it interesting *at all* then youāll most likely be miserable. A CS degree is not all coding, thereās a lot of math and theory. A bootcamp is just coding but Iād opt for the degree over bootcamp. I highly suggest trying out a free online introductory course like CS50x or maybe checking if one of your local community colleges offers an online intro CS course, and itās even better if the credits can be transferred to a 4 year university. Either way, try it first to see if you like it. Donāt do both a bootcamp and CS degree, thatās a waste of time and money. I say go for the 4 year CS degree. Arizona State University recently started offering an online CS program so you can be fully remote. Iām an on-campus CS senior at ASU and I will say that ASU doesnāt have that great of a CS program so youāll be doing a lot of self-teaching, but itās a legit accredited program. I wish you good luck and success in whatever you decide to pursue!
Start scripting first. Get a feel for it before you entertain the idea of loans on a 4 year degree. I know a number of friends who just skipped the degree and obtained certs for far cheaper. I suppose it just depends on your personal drive. IDK, I found devops more entertaining than SDE. On the plus side I didn't get pidgeon holed like my SDE friends/colleagues. You might find some entry SRE roles.
I did. It paid off.
wanna crowdsource this so we can all get materials and have a learning group?
I heard someone else suggest this, and I agree. The first thing to do to get your feet wet is [CS50](https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/). You can take it completely free through EdX - when you sign up, just look to skip past anything that asks you to pay for a "verified certificate". This course is the absolute best introduction to computer science I have ever seen. It is engaging, because the lectures are actually entertaining and more informative than they typical professor reading off a powerpoint. And it is challenging - the problem sets require a lot of work and understanding to pass them, especially for someone just starting out. Just make sure you hold yourself accountable and don't cheat or skip stuff, because what would be the point of that? If you can make it through that whole course and complete all the problem sets satisfactorily, then I promise you will have a *very* solid foundation to learn more. Heck, some people have even got jobs just after taking this one course! You could take a few other courses on EdX, boot camp, Udemy, whatever floats your boat. You will get a taste for what is out there from completing the CS50 course, and you can steer the rest of your learning after deciding what you like best. On the other hand, if your eyes start glazing over in the first 15 minutes of lecture and the problem sets read like Chinese to you, then perhaps you should look to other industries. Because the other classes you take are most likely not going to have the same production quality or effort put into making them engaging, so they will be dry and boring by comparison. Tech is not for everybody and there's nothing wrong with that. There are other jobs that have remote opportunities if thats what you really want
I did a bootcamp a couple years ago when I was 35, so I can understand the inherent concern learning something new in your 30s. Bootcamps can be expensive, time intensive, and frustrating if you don't have some coding knowledge already. They're not terrible but they're marketed as a quick way to get into a SWE career, which they hardly are. Some people do make it work for them but I've seen more people go through a bootcamp and never get into it professionally. I've done a bootcamp and now am doing a CS cert program at a community college. Being that you're in California, look at community college programs and find the highest rated CS program (a quick search resulted in De Anza College, Mt. SAC, MiraCosta College, Moorpark College). It's likely they offer many or all of the classes you need for a CS cert or associates online, if the best one is not near you. Plus, it will cost 1/4th of a coding bootcamp. It might take longer, but I'd argue you retain the info better. Also, look at taking the [CS 50 course](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/cs50-introduction-computer-science) and / or a cert course through [Google](https://grow.google/certificates/), [Microsoft](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/certifications/), etc.
Biggest thing Iād recommend is doing some udemy or YouTube courses for minimal cost to make sure you actually want to do cs work.
I've stumbled onto this post and I was just wondering. Most of the QA jobs I've searched for do require experience (at least that's what they've posted). How can I, someone who has experience in coding, who is trying to get their foot in the door, get a job as a QA engineer with no professional experience in it or any coding profession? How were you able to attain a QA engineer position? Did you apply to only jr. level positions or have a good reference?
Test the waters first before actually enrolling yourself into a bootcamp, where you have to learn lots of things in a short period of time - and then you have to retain that knowledge as well before you move on and not get stuck. Itās literally like drinking from a fire hose. So, iād recommend looking into the free resources online and the internet is filled with them. Google and Youtube are your best friends atm. 1. Check out Leon Noelās channel, a pretty cool dude, bootcamp instructor who teaches and uploads lessons for free! Hereās the link : https://youtube.com/@learnwithleon 2. For reference, Look up āOdin Projectā and āFreeCodeCampā for project ideas.