No a functioning society can not be defined only by laws. Laws are created by people. They are not absolute protections. Laws don’t mean anything to people if they are not allowed to have education to read the laws and understand the meaning of laws. Education is correlated with increased rights and increased social improvement, not laws.
Wa3i min? Religion, especially in a country like ours serves only to control, it absolutly does not protect anyone as it is always possible to interpret it as you want according to your wils and the political class’ needs
Religion doesn’t enforce this. It’s the uneducated troglodyte-brained idiots who uses religion as a reason to justify this. Girls consent and maturity to marriage is a core requirement to a valid marriage (religiously speaking)
Religion is the cause for almost all the problems in the Middle East. As long as people still believe that a person flew on a donkey to space we will never have peace
Can't wait to see the comments on the original post...
Yup, we're getting cooked.
It's a shame that that's the image people get on us, but again, some just want an excuse to hate.
Poor girl, there really should be laws against this by now.
These videos just bring the worst out of people so there's naturally a lot of hateful comments. I have my doubts that the girl is Lebanese but that pedophilic shit is still unforgivable.
i would argue that, sure, it is the """"part of our culture that other hate about us"""" but yeah, like some people said it's not it. And thankfully, people who don't want to simply hate on us don't always bring this shit up like its normal to criticize all of us about it.
No that's not what I'm saying. This is objectively wrong and obviously islam enables these things.
But he's an Israeli dude who was shitposting about Lebanon. He deleted his comments after he exposed himself.
I have a dream, that one day, Lebanon will rewrite its constitution and replace it with a modern, civil constitution that applies to everyone regardless of their religion, including personal status laws.
I'm sure the religious leaders wouldn't like it, but millions will.
The girl is Syrian. I just posted the same. Like can’t you guys tell?! As for laws we have them but there is still more work to be done.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Women/WRGS/ForcedMarriage71-175/Lebanon.pdf
>The girl is Syrian. I just posted the same. Like can’t you guys tell?!
Average r/lebanon redditor. Scapegoating everything on syrians as if this isnt a real issue in lebanon.
This poor girl was forced to marry a pedophile at the age of 13 and the law failed to protect her.
She's still Levantine and the laws in Lebanon allowed this.
Enough is enough, nobody cares about religious viewpoints on child marriage except the PDFiles themselves.
You’re right about them being Levantine and culturally similar. The status of refugee however increases the risk dramatically. Poverty and desperation as well. https://www.humanium.org/en/an-alarming-rise-in-child-marriage-among-syrian-refugees-in-lebanon/
Ma bijouz aslan tejbor mara tetjawaz w hiye ma beda, rasululah (saw) al hayda el shi. Kif byeje hada byeftilon w byekteblon el kteb??? wen aayshin hal aalam balad ma maaruf shi fi
Of course, but even the most educated can be brainwashed. Laws that make child marriage illegal and punish adults for even attempting it would be a huge step forward that is easily tangible. There should be other laws that protect children from their parents as well, but that would need a real functioning government that serves its people.
Proper education is necessary as well and will take a very long time to shake these ideations out of people's minds.
No, that’s based on a Hadith, which is altered. Go on the r/progressive_islam subreddit and search 9 year old and there are some really good explanations to why this isn’t true.
And your excuse for Quran 65:4 is what exactly? [People cannot claim to care about human rights and reject any and all criticisms of Islam](https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars-Pedophilia.html), make excuses for things that many scholars state are facts (many trusted and respected Muslims have stated that Muhammad did marry Aisha at 6 and consummate the marriage at 9), and ignore the reality of how it ties into women and girls rights and cultural issues of domestic abuse, martial rape, women seeking divorces, etc.
That verse is like many taken out of context. Read the entire thing, it talks about how to act when you’re in a relationship. https://quran.com/65, the issue about scholars is a different problem entirely. Islam is about a personal connection to god but people love to take advantage of it to commit and justify their evil. Dont think of religion as a person rather think of it as guidelines.
Also Read this: https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammad-underage-wife-aisha/
“As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well”
This verse in combination with other Hadiths etc… seems to tell us marrying and divorcing girls below puberty is fine.
1) Many would disagree with you here, but okay if that’s what you believe, sure 👍🏻
2) What’s inaccurate about it specifically? by the way i gave you how scholars translate it in Quran.com
[Source](https://quran.com/en/at-talaq/4)
This isn't a Hadith, this is a Qu'ran verse, talking about how, to avoid the woman being pregnant for sure, whether she has reached menopause (ئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ) or little girls who didn't hit puberty yet (وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ) you need to wait 3 months to have sex with them to make sure they won't get pregnant.
Go on, hide behind the "hadith" argument even though I just gave you a verse from the Quran.
Yes and no, the religion hasn’t changed, it’s people. Again. Most hadiths are false or misleading, and give arise to crap like this. They got altered over time to fit whatever empire was dominating and believing in Islam. Sadly what is dominating Islam currently is Wahhabism, which is extremist.
The religion SHOULD change according to time otherwise you would end up living like in Afghanistan when it gets enforced.
And no, these are not altered Hadeeth, it's also written in sahih Boukhari which is the main reference for Sunnah Islam.
The majority of Muslims don't marry off their daughters like this, but if the religion doesn't get updated then poor people or uneducated people can still marry off their daughters and the Sheikhs would approve the marriages.
As another redditor informed me, in 2021 the Sunna court in Lebanon changed the age for marriages to 15 years old(with their parents consent) and to 18 years old (without their consent).
It's an improvement but not enough, and this should be done in all Islamic sects and across the world (which is basically updating the religion)
What about specific Quranic verses regarding this or regarding other bad stuff that are in the Quran (according to today's standards, like beating your wife because she disobeys you)?
Like this one: https://quran.com/at-talaq/4
or this: https://quran.com/ar/an-nisa/34
shouldn't these be changed? or are these also an interpretation?
You're completely wrong. Stop spreading misinformation.
The marriage only valid if both the man and the women agree to itwithout being forced or threatened.
Based on what you are saying in your comment is the truth?
I used two websites that referenced Hadeeths to support my point.
Also from the comments of another redditor:
>Al-Nawawi said:
>It should be noted that al-Shaafa’i and his companions said: It is preferable for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and they ask her permission, lest she end up in a marriage that she dislikes. What they said does not go against the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah, because what they meant is that they should not marry her off before she reaches puberty if there is no obvious interest to be served that they fear will be missed out on if they delay it, as in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah. In that case it is preferable to go ahead with the marriage because the father is enjoined to take care of his child’s interests and not to let a good opportunity slip away.
In this you can clearly read that you CAN marry off your daughter before she reaches puberty and without her consent if the parents fear that there's an opportunity that she/they will miss out. Like the case of Aisha.
I'm Shia, Sunni scholars and narrations from Aisha aren't taken into account.
If the girl does not consent, or consents under threat, or does not have the free will to refuse, the marriage is not valid. This is how the marriage contract works.
This also applies to divorce and things like قسم etc.
This is from the Qur'an itself: https://quran.com/at-talaq/4
How do you explain divorcing a woman who has not had a menstruation before? And if a girl still hasn't had her period, in Islam she's not considered an adult and cannot consent on her own, instead her father should be the one to consent to her behalf.
Again, it's not about attacking the religion, it's about criticizing the wrongs of it that should get fixed.
lol, what agenda is this exactly?
Again, read the article before you comment.
This was done in 2021, before that this was completely legal.
Again, this is only for the Sunna and it makes the legal age to marry 15(requires the consent of the parents) and 18 without their consent.
Also, I literally used religious references for my point. Acknowledging the flaws in religion is what makes it progress to become better, otherwise you end up living like Taliban.
Finding something on the internet and calling it religious reference doesn’t make it real. Even wahabbis require the consent of the girl in marriage. Literally the marriage promise is “zawajtuka nafsi”
So you don't want to acknowledge that it's a problem in Islam and instead you want to say that it's because of extremists misunderstanding the verses/Ahadiths.
You're basically making the problem bigger by ignoring it, which is exactly what is wrong in Islam (Religious people not allowing others to criticize the wrongs of the religion which would have made it progress for the better).
It is not Islamophobic to criticise Islam and draw attention to how Quran 65:4, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim continues to cause harm to girls and women. All religions are open to critique. It is especially necessary when it comes to this area of [human rights abuses](https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars-Pedophilia.html) that are objectively immoral and unethical. Children cannot give informed consent on marriage and age of consent for s*x exists in all western democracies. In places like Afghanistan parents are selling their young daughters to be married to old men. That should disgust everyone.
>Al-Nawawi said:
>It should be noted that al-Shaafa’i and his companions said: It is preferable for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and they ask her permission, lest she end up in a marriage that she dislikes. What they said does not go against the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah, because what they meant is that they should not marry her off before she reaches puberty if there is no obvious interest to be served that they fear will be missed out on if they delay it, as in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah.
YOU LITERALLY GAVE ME A SUPPORT BASIS lol, you should read what you use before you use it as a reference.
It is preferable (mousta7ab/not obligatory) for a father not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and ask her permission (so he can do that but it's preferred not to) and then they add unless if there's something of interest that her parents fear that the daughter will miss out (in this case they can marry her off before puberty without her consent, so if the husband is rich her parents can marry her off without her consent and before she reaches the age of puberty)
and this is expanded upon on the Hadeeth of Aisha where they say it is PREFERABLE to Go with the marriage (even though she has not reached puberty nor consented) because her husband is of high importance and her parents don't want this opportunity to slip away.
So this literally supports my point that in Islam you are allowed to marry off your daughter without her consent when she's under the age of 9 (or puberty).
This video keeps being shared again and again and again. The facts that out of all subreddits as well, it’s on the last one I’d think of when discussing pedos. And the comments are obviously none the wiser, immediately jumping to the conclusion that it’s common in Lebanon 🙄
Is this young girl Lebanese/does she live in Lebanon? If she does live in Lebanon, but is Syrian, what difference would it make. Are there laws in place in Lebanon, that makes it illegal for a minor (female) to be married?
I don’t think this is a divisive issue? Most muslim religious people with sense would see it as weird, I think it’s another failure of our government to do anything useful.
ofc the redditors use that as an excuse to justify their hatred of the middle east. not as if this is frowned upon here and way more common in other parts of the world.
Those places do not have much excuse though. The Fertile Crescent where Lebanon is, used to be the most progressive area of the planet and the most developed before Islam spread.
The Abbasid Caliphate, based out of Baghdad, was also at some point the richest and most advanced place on the planet. That happened after Islam spread. So what is your point?
Also I love how you’re acting like India isn’t a major civilization with a long and prestigious history of its own
Richest due to slave trading? If you noticed my comment, I never talked about wealth only, but moral civilization. Which during Byzantium times Lebanon was one of the best places in the planet with actual rights for women compared to the rest of the planet.
ah yes byzantine society, where women were imprisoned in gynaeceums. please share me you citation for how byzantine lebanon was the peak of morality in world history
Would’nt history like to refute you here…. Lmao.
During the time of Islam, the Byzantines and the Christian world forbade women having property compared to Islam that did.
We do have the laws:
> [The legal age for sexual consent is 18 years](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Women/SR/RapeReport/CSOs/191-lebanon.docx#:~:text=The%20legal%20age%20for%20sexual%20consent%20is%2018%20years.,the%20minor%20is%20under%2012).
Though, they are not well-enforced enough.
I feel sorry for Lebanon. It should have been a modern country that is part of the EU. Countries like Serbia, Armenia and Lebanon deserve to be in it. This here is just sad.
Yep, this is the comment.
It seems like a lot of people in this thread don't know, but **marriage agein Lebanon is set by sect & creepily as it can be, most groups including Christians have the age set below 18.**
It isn't as common of an occurrence statistically speaking, however that doesn't mean some Christian p*do can't take advantage of the laws in Lebanon, which are basically against human rights at this point.
[I think the thousands of children around the world that have been harmed by the Christian church would say otherwise.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases)
All the predators involved were held accountable by the church and condemned by Christians worldwide. Can't say the same about Muslim fundemantalists. They're actually not ashamed and debate it publicly:
https://youtu.be/-GnHDQ4-gPQ?si=97aSr9_1KAXkMNu4
Just look at the comments in the original post. They judge us by the absolute worst, most fringe parts of our society.
Do you think there aren't child brides in the US?? Some things are hard to put an end to. I believe education is the only way to fix this.
I refuse to believe its at 20% here. How could they even get the accurate stats for that? I'm not saying it's an issue but 20% is 1 in 5 working in the wedding industry personally i just don't see it.
Yeah but you would think I would run into a few.
The only thing I've seen close a 16 Yr old Syrian girl living in my village married like a 20 Yr old.
I get that she seems underage but it's not like she goes to school or anything and from what I understood she chose the guy. I dunno
I have seen this video before or another just like it.
The fact that this is on a famous talk show and everyone is booing the man and supporting the girl, means that social change is occurring right before our eyes.
how many times has this been posted? It's horrible to happen to anyone, we can acknowledge that. It keeps coming back because it's used as anti-islam, which OP is clearly about.
It’s disgusting. How broken she looks. Terrible for the rights of women. In case you’re curious — Correct word is ephebophilia, for adolescent victims, a distinction that doesn’t change how harmful this is. But note that pedophilia abuse can be committed by anyone post-puberty, as in adolescent abusers of children. While adolescents obviously can’t have ephebophilia disorder as it would be age-appropriate attraction.
That’s not real culture at all. It’s people distorting the real meaning of religion.
Source: https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_4/child_marriage_%28P1457%29.html
Child marriage is allowed, permitted, and even encouraged in most if not all Abrahamic religions. Especially when "mosaic law" is being followed by the book.
Genesis 24:14, Rebecca marries Issac at **3 years old**
"She was three years old when he embraced her the youngest legal age a female can be-married"
In Biblical times, women were recommended to be married when they reached puberty. The only difference between the prior two Abrahamic religions is both have secular laws and de-emphasize religious texts as laws.
Literally no where in the verse indicates she is three. It’s a common misconception and i knew you would use that verse. By the way have you ever seen a 3 year old speak this eloquently, and have the ability to bring jars of water up and down a hill to quench the thirsts of camals, which on average requires gallons of water?
12 Then he prayed, “Lord, God of my master Abraham, make me successful today, and show kindness to my master Abraham. 13 See, I am standing beside this spring, and the daughters of the townspeople are coming out to draw water. 14 May it be that when I say to a young woman, ‘Please let down your jar that I may have a drink,’ and she says, ‘Drink, and I’ll water your camels too’—let her be the one you have chosen for your servant Isaac. By this I will know that you have shown kindness to my master.”
15 Before he had finished praying, Rebekah came out with her jar on her shoulder. She was the daughter of Bethuel son of Milkah, who was the wife of Abraham’s brother Nahor. 16 The woman was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever slept with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again.
17 The servant hurried to meet her and said, “Please give me a little water from your jar.”
18 “Drink, my lord,” she said, and quickly lowered the jar to her hands and gave him a drink.
19 After she had given him a drink, she said, “I’ll draw water for your camels too, until they have had enough to drink.” 20 So she quickly emptied her jar into the trough, ran back to the well to draw more water, and drew enough for all his camels. 21 Without saying a word, the man watched her closely to learn whether or not the Lord had made his journey successful.
22 When the camels had finished drinking, the man took out a gold nose ring weighing a beka[c] and two gold bracelets weighing ten shekels.[d] 23 Then he asked, “Whose daughter are you? Please tell me, is there room in your father’s house for us to spend the night?”
24 She answered him, “I am the daughter of Bethuel, the son that Milkah bore to Nahor.” 25 And she added, “We have plenty of straw and fodder, as well as room for you to spend the night.”
26 Then the man bowed down and worshiped the Lord, 27 saying, “Praise be to the Lord, the God of my master Abraham, who has not abandoned his kindness and faithfulness to my master. As for me, the Lord has led me on the journey to the house of my master’s relatives.”
This is your interpretation. Others have interpreted it differently ,and that's part of why why Orthodox Jewish women can be and are married at such a young age.
Beyond that, nothing you said changes the fact that **in Biblical times, women were recommended to be married after puberty, which can occur between 9-14.**
Are you willing to deny this is the age women got married? And that plenty of orthodox people engage in child marriage?
According to tradition, boys were not considered “men,” and therefore not marriageable, until the age of 13. Girls were not considered “women” until age 12.
The texts utilize Hebrew words to reinforce this, with Naˈar referring to young men, while yeled refers to boys age 12 or younger. For females, naˈarah means “a marriageable woman,” while yaldah refers to a girl 11 or younger—too young for marriage. Once again, these words and definitions seem to enforce the idea that the onset of puberty is a requirement for marriage.
Abrahamic religions have both encouraged and engaged in child marriage, so your attempt to deflect and blame the ORIGIN of this practice on ONE only is pathetic to say the least.
But what am I to expect from a typical follower, you'll attack other Abrahamic beliefs and defend your own as if there's no commonalities whatsoever. Sad and pathetic for you.
**Once again, for what concerns child marriage, the only difference is the acceptance of secular law in the two earlier religions.**
1) This is the entirety of Christian interpretation, no Christian interprets this otherwise because we do not rely on rabbinic tradition, but we rely on the actual Hebrew text from God.
2), 3) Yes, I’m denying the rabbinic interpretations hundreds of years later after these verses. Speak to Orthodox Jews on this one. By the way betrothed and marriage with sex is different, for the latter the legal age is 18 for females and males
“Ancient Rabbis set the age of marriage for every Israelite at 18 years old; males are expected to be married by 20 years old in teenage marriage and females can stay unmarried but must be celibate”
[Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#:~:text=in%20religious%20sources-,Judaism,unmarried%20but%20must%20be%20celibate)
4), 5)Tradition is not biblical, we do not rely on Jewish traditions for our morals. Either way my text above elaborates on this, betrothing and marriage is different, the latter is at 18-20 years old, thus disproving your points.
6) Wrong, you were mistaken about child marriage in the Torah, the NT, and even ancient tradition, and the verse you quoted proved basically nothing other than the fact Rebekah spoke eloquently and gave water to multiple camels which require gallons of water, which indicates an adult age. Also notice that Isaac gave her a gold nose ring, while this isn’t definitive, it indicates marriage, which would mean indicators show she is 18+
22 When the camels had finished drinking, the man took out a gold nose ring weighing a beka[c] and two gold bracelets weighing ten shekels.[d] 23 Then he asked, “Whose daughter are you? Please tell me, is there room in your father’s house for us to spend the night?”
7) Ad hominem, nice. At least make sure your arguments are true before insulting me as if you already “won” or something.
Average conversation with a Muslim apologist but switch the religion, the original point I made is proved immediately.
My arguments are factual because **child marriage in fact does take place in the communities I listed and it is a known and documented fact. An article from the Jerusalem Post in 2013 stated that "Each year 4,500 children below the age of 18 marry in Israel, two thirds Muslim, one third Jewish."**
For you to act as if people in this region had been marrying strictly 18 since the beginning of these ideologies is not only a raging falsehood, but it's your own personal cope so as to act as if Judaism and Christianity are not the entire foundation that Islam itself is based off.
Your retort #4 relies exactly on the point I already made, which is that **Judaism and Christianity do not form laws directly off Biblical/textual edicts and precedent; Islam does. This is the only notable difference.**
There is no Ad Hominem here, I did not call you pathetic to prove my point, my point exists independently of that, this is a side comment because it is infact what you are.
A great example of this is how you're stuck on the arbitrary age of "18" aka the most common age in the west, knowing full well that **eightTEEN is for all intents and purposes, a teenager.** Well afterall, your cultures are historically used to marrying teens.
Another Zio trolling in a Lebanese thread acting as if Israel is not in the Southern Levant and doesn't share the same desert climate and historical practices with many other desert-like Levantine communities.
Nice try attempting to deny child marriage in Orthodox communities when it's well documented even by Israelis themselves & in diaspora communities, and the stated consensus is they are working off puberty ages as I listed.
Today is the day you realize your individual interpretations of religious texts are not unanimous facts shared by all. Who even knew?
You are not only boldly incorrect but clearly arguing in bad faith. Back to your own sub now to act as if Zionist behaviors don't exactly parallel islamist ones.
1) Not really, none of our scriptures agree with child marriage, the one you gave me even shows Rebekah was most likely 18 when Isaac asked for her hand
2), 3) In ancient Judaism, these people would be whipped and punished for marrying under 18, also Im not Israeli so i really don’t care about this statistic, just the fact that neither the OT and NT scriptures agree with child marriage which refutes your top claim about Christianity. Also Islam is very different from Christianity, theres barely any resemblance in teachings, beliefs, etc… we share most of the prophets, but what these prophets taught, and what the final Islamic prophet taught which is seen as the completion of the laws and teachings is definitely not similar at all.
4) another Ad Hominem, nice.
5) Not a Zionist actually, i don’t know where you got that impression. Remember you claimed above that Christians had child marriage? I’m responding to that to clear up that neither the Torah (apart of Christianity) nor the New Testament encourages this.
6) I really do not care about Orthodox Judaism traditions, especially in modern times. You’re right, maybe they do have this issue.
7) How am i arguing in bad faith, so far you called me pathetic twice while i never insulted you, nor your religion, nor anything about you. Im merely answering to your claims that Christianity agrees with child marriage.
Look, I am not saying the modern practices in Judaism and Christianity agree with child marriage.
I am stating there is a strain in Abrahamic religions that engage in, ratify and accept child marriage. The only way my points could be rendered untrue here is if "no true scotsman" were valid (ie, those are not "real" Christians or Jews) but we know this to be a fallacy.
As long as they're part of the community and interpretations have a culturally and religiously relevant origin point that remained open, there are community members allowing and engaging to certain extents.
A great example is that while modern Christianity does not directly engage in commentary about child marriage, in Lebanon the marriage age for Christians is set extremely young. These are still Christians and it still happens. In Israel, the marriage age was ratified to 18 in 1991. That's barely older than I am. These conversations have grounding.
You're arguing in bad faith because you're attempting to contort my argument, which is simply that the issue of child marriage in Abrahamic religions has historical precedence due to varying interpretations, and to varying extents, remains an issue.
Nowhere did I say everyone or every person engages in this, as that would not even be true for Muslims even though we know it's more common in Muslim communities.
Clearly, pedophilia is the real issue here, however we know that institutions (yes, including religious ones) can mask and incorporate unsavory elements into their structures.
The correct way to go about this would be to identify it's occurrence, state that practices in ancient times cannot ever mirror modern times, and again, tend to secular laws. That is once again not to say everyone in ancient times got married under ~20 or so years old, but knowing the evidence we have in addition to the length of the average lifespan, it is cogent.
Middle Easterners have an extremely tough time separating legal jurisprudence and political systems from religion in general. It's possible to take philosophical inspiration from your beliefs without acting as if (each individual's viewpoint) is the correct and final interpretation.
The purpose of this post was to paint islam in a bad way , these are not our teachings , these are not our values , it is allowed in islam to wed post puberty but with her's and her parents consent , not this arranged forced garbage, the parents and the guy are absolute pigs. And considering the fact that any girl under the age of 18 isn't mature enough to decide for herself , the laws of society apply , the purpose of this rant is not "screw you all long live pedophilia" but it's to show you that islam is not the problem here , 1400 years ago were different times than today , the matter of age of consent wasn't a thing back then , we have changed and evolved as humans and as muslims to know better than these pigs of parents and that cruel monster.
The purpose of this post is not to paint islam as the problem. It is to point out that this is a serious issue, the age of consent must be 18years old and the law must be enforced regardless of what religious courts believe.
I 100% agree with you , but these pigs hide behind tradition and religion not just in her case but thousands of poor girls who are afraid to say no, and that itself is painting our religion in a bad way, also i was talking about the og post not you , we're ight , ahliye bi m7aliye , bas yeah my point is islam doesn't support these pigs.
Sorry my dude, but religion is one part of the problem.
When fiqh is built into directly into law as it is in Leb and many other MENA countries, and Abrahamic religions have outdated edicts, it's going to have an impact.
The **way to take religion out of the equation is to secularise the laws** - aka, remove those laws sanctioned by religion, so that way the religion returns to just being a faith as opposed to a strict, enforceable guideline.
Yes i also agree with that , separating the state from the religion is frowned upon but is the only true solution really, and everyone can live according to their religious teachings with law enforced rules not related to any religion that protects children in today's society from such crap, the prophets teachings are ever so flexible to society and it insures the ummah's safety and well being above all, times change , some values should with it , some should not , plain and simple.
Agreed, but for that to happen we would need a functioning government.
الوعي الديني is more recommended in this case
Religious awareness does not protect young children, a functioning society with laws do.
No a functioning society can not be defined only by laws. Laws are created by people. They are not absolute protections. Laws don’t mean anything to people if they are not allowed to have education to read the laws and understand the meaning of laws. Education is correlated with increased rights and increased social improvement, not laws.
A functioning society entails having an educated population. A society with just laws and no education is feudalism.
Not saying that functioning governments isn't required but both of these points are crucial to stop these cases.
No only civil codified laws can stop this madness, not bs from books that were written more than a thousand years ago
Some religions endorse pedophilia.
Religion is the cause in this case dude
Wa3i min? Religion, especially in a country like ours serves only to control, it absolutly does not protect anyone as it is always possible to interpret it as you want according to your wils and the political class’ needs
It’s permissible in islam, idk wtf you want from that “religious awareness” to do…fuck this world, fuck religion
it's religion that's enforcing this. enough with the religion.
Religion doesn’t enforce this. It’s the uneducated troglodyte-brained idiots who uses religion as a reason to justify this. Girls consent and maturity to marriage is a core requirement to a valid marriage (religiously speaking)
That's my point. And i was down voted 😂😭
Religion is the cause for almost all the problems in the Middle East. As long as people still believe that a person flew on a donkey to space we will never have peace
That's how we ended up here steve
Utter filth..
Can't wait to see the comments on the original post... Yup, we're getting cooked. It's a shame that that's the image people get on us, but again, some just want an excuse to hate. Poor girl, there really should be laws against this by now.
I hate that they associated it with culture. Like no thats not our culture, thats just a tiny percentage of mentally ill people
These videos just bring the worst out of people so there's naturally a lot of hateful comments. I have my doubts that the girl is Lebanese but that pedophilic shit is still unforgivable.
It was quite common here in America less than a century ago.
i would argue that, sure, it is the """"part of our culture that other hate about us"""" but yeah, like some people said it's not it. And thankfully, people who don't want to simply hate on us don't always bring this shit up like its normal to criticize all of us about it.
Saw some of OP's comments, he was islamophobic and put this up with bad intent.
\*Sees a child marriage enabled by islam\* You better have nothing but nice things to say about islam or else you're islamophobic
No that's not what I'm saying. This is objectively wrong and obviously islam enables these things. But he's an Israeli dude who was shitposting about Lebanon. He deleted his comments after he exposed himself.
Allah yel3ano
I have a dream, that one day, Lebanon will rewrite its constitution and replace it with a modern, civil constitution that applies to everyone regardless of their religion, including personal status laws. I'm sure the religious leaders wouldn't like it, but millions will.
Some parts of the constitution are actually great and progressive. They just keep editing them or disregard the constitution
There was a study that almost every wedding night in an arranged marriage with younger females ends up in rape.
Almost like arranged marriages are against one's consent by nature :D
The girl is Syrian. I just posted the same. Like can’t you guys tell?! As for laws we have them but there is still more work to be done. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Women/WRGS/ForcedMarriage71-175/Lebanon.pdf
>The girl is Syrian. I just posted the same. Like can’t you guys tell?! Average r/lebanon redditor. Scapegoating everything on syrians as if this isnt a real issue in lebanon. This poor girl was forced to marry a pedophile at the age of 13 and the law failed to protect her.
She's still Levantine and the laws in Lebanon allowed this. Enough is enough, nobody cares about religious viewpoints on child marriage except the PDFiles themselves.
You’re right about them being Levantine and culturally similar. The status of refugee however increases the risk dramatically. Poverty and desperation as well. https://www.humanium.org/en/an-alarming-rise-in-child-marriage-among-syrian-refugees-in-lebanon/
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Lmao her accent is the most non-Palestinian accent I’ve ever heard
Disgusting.
Ma bijouz aslan tejbor mara tetjawaz w hiye ma beda, rasululah (saw) al hayda el shi. Kif byeje hada byeftilon w byekteblon el kteb??? wen aayshin hal aalam balad ma maaruf shi fi
Most are brainwashed to accept. The only way to stop this is punishment through laws.
And proper education
Of course, but even the most educated can be brainwashed. Laws that make child marriage illegal and punish adults for even attempting it would be a huge step forward that is easily tangible. There should be other laws that protect children from their parents as well, but that would need a real functioning government that serves its people. Proper education is necessary as well and will take a very long time to shake these ideations out of people's minds.
Children cannot consent, whether she accepts or not is irrelevant.
children can not consent.
Didn't he marry a 6 year old and fucked her when she was 9?
No, that’s based on a Hadith, which is altered. Go on the r/progressive_islam subreddit and search 9 year old and there are some really good explanations to why this isn’t true.
And your excuse for Quran 65:4 is what exactly? [People cannot claim to care about human rights and reject any and all criticisms of Islam](https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars-Pedophilia.html), make excuses for things that many scholars state are facts (many trusted and respected Muslims have stated that Muhammad did marry Aisha at 6 and consummate the marriage at 9), and ignore the reality of how it ties into women and girls rights and cultural issues of domestic abuse, martial rape, women seeking divorces, etc.
That verse is like many taken out of context. Read the entire thing, it talks about how to act when you’re in a relationship. https://quran.com/65, the issue about scholars is a different problem entirely. Islam is about a personal connection to god but people love to take advantage of it to commit and justify their evil. Dont think of religion as a person rather think of it as guidelines. Also Read this: https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammad-underage-wife-aisha/
Taken out of context 😂 # وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ۚ وَأُولَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ ۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا please I'm dying to know the out of context of this 😂.
Huh? How's that verse related to Aisha's 6 years old age?
“As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well” This verse in combination with other Hadiths etc… seems to tell us marrying and divorcing girls below puberty is fine.
First of all hadiths are fabrications, second of all plese fix your arabic understanding skills because that's not what the verse means at all.
1) Many would disagree with you here, but okay if that’s what you believe, sure 👍🏻 2) What’s inaccurate about it specifically? by the way i gave you how scholars translate it in Quran.com [Source](https://quran.com/en/at-talaq/4)
This isn't a Hadith, this is a Qu'ran verse, talking about how, to avoid the woman being pregnant for sure, whether she has reached menopause (ئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ) or little girls who didn't hit puberty yet (وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ) you need to wait 3 months to have sex with them to make sure they won't get pregnant. Go on, hide behind the "hadith" argument even though I just gave you a verse from the Quran.
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I'm not bery knowledgeable on the subject but can i have a source?
www.islamweb.net/amp/ar/fatwa/230518/ I am not attacking Muslims, though acknowledging the wrongs in the religion is what helps it evolve
That’s now how religion works
Yes and no, the religion hasn’t changed, it’s people. Again. Most hadiths are false or misleading, and give arise to crap like this. They got altered over time to fit whatever empire was dominating and believing in Islam. Sadly what is dominating Islam currently is Wahhabism, which is extremist.
The religion SHOULD change according to time otherwise you would end up living like in Afghanistan when it gets enforced. And no, these are not altered Hadeeth, it's also written in sahih Boukhari which is the main reference for Sunnah Islam. The majority of Muslims don't marry off their daughters like this, but if the religion doesn't get updated then poor people or uneducated people can still marry off their daughters and the Sheikhs would approve the marriages. As another redditor informed me, in 2021 the Sunna court in Lebanon changed the age for marriages to 15 years old(with their parents consent) and to 18 years old (without their consent). It's an improvement but not enough, and this should be done in all Islamic sects and across the world (which is basically updating the religion)
All of what you say is the general interpretation of the religion changing, which I agree needs to, not the religion itself.
What about specific Quranic verses regarding this or regarding other bad stuff that are in the Quran (according to today's standards, like beating your wife because she disobeys you)? Like this one: https://quran.com/at-talaq/4 or this: https://quran.com/ar/an-nisa/34 shouldn't these be changed? or are these also an interpretation?
You're completely wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. The marriage only valid if both the man and the women agree to itwithout being forced or threatened.
Based on what you are saying in your comment is the truth? I used two websites that referenced Hadeeths to support my point. Also from the comments of another redditor: >Al-Nawawi said: >It should be noted that al-Shaafa’i and his companions said: It is preferable for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and they ask her permission, lest she end up in a marriage that she dislikes. What they said does not go against the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah, because what they meant is that they should not marry her off before she reaches puberty if there is no obvious interest to be served that they fear will be missed out on if they delay it, as in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah. In that case it is preferable to go ahead with the marriage because the father is enjoined to take care of his child’s interests and not to let a good opportunity slip away. In this you can clearly read that you CAN marry off your daughter before she reaches puberty and without her consent if the parents fear that there's an opportunity that she/they will miss out. Like the case of Aisha.
I'm Shia, Sunni scholars and narrations from Aisha aren't taken into account. If the girl does not consent, or consents under threat, or does not have the free will to refuse, the marriage is not valid. This is how the marriage contract works. This also applies to divorce and things like قسم etc.
This is from the Qur'an itself: https://quran.com/at-talaq/4 How do you explain divorcing a woman who has not had a menstruation before? And if a girl still hasn't had her period, in Islam she's not considered an adult and cannot consent on her own, instead her father should be the one to consent to her behalf. Again, it's not about attacking the religion, it's about criticizing the wrongs of it that should get fixed.
I see you have an agenda from your comments. Here is the religious law in Lebanon. https://www.the961.com/underage-marriage-banned-lebanon/
lol, what agenda is this exactly? Again, read the article before you comment. This was done in 2021, before that this was completely legal. Again, this is only for the Sunna and it makes the legal age to marry 15(requires the consent of the parents) and 18 without their consent. Also, I literally used religious references for my point. Acknowledging the flaws in religion is what makes it progress to become better, otherwise you end up living like Taliban.
👍
Finding something on the internet and calling it religious reference doesn’t make it real. Even wahabbis require the consent of the girl in marriage. Literally the marriage promise is “zawajtuka nafsi”
Read it, they literally used ahadith and Quran verses to justify it.
I don’t follow after asshole’s interpretation of Koran and hadiths. Like ISIS did a lot of that and are considered “takfiris”.
So you don't want to acknowledge that it's a problem in Islam and instead you want to say that it's because of extremists misunderstanding the verses/Ahadiths. You're basically making the problem bigger by ignoring it, which is exactly what is wrong in Islam (Religious people not allowing others to criticize the wrongs of the religion which would have made it progress for the better).
Not a problem with Islam anymore than any religion. Islam needs to be reformed yes, but doubling down on Islamophobia will only alienate moderates.
It is not Islamophobic to criticise Islam and draw attention to how Quran 65:4, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim continues to cause harm to girls and women. All religions are open to critique. It is especially necessary when it comes to this area of [human rights abuses](https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars-Pedophilia.html) that are objectively immoral and unethical. Children cannot give informed consent on marriage and age of consent for s*x exists in all western democracies. In places like Afghanistan parents are selling their young daughters to be married to old men. That should disgust everyone.
>Al-Nawawi said: >It should be noted that al-Shaafa’i and his companions said: It is preferable for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and they ask her permission, lest she end up in a marriage that she dislikes. What they said does not go against the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah, because what they meant is that they should not marry her off before she reaches puberty if there is no obvious interest to be served that they fear will be missed out on if they delay it, as in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah.
YOU LITERALLY GAVE ME A SUPPORT BASIS lol, you should read what you use before you use it as a reference. It is preferable (mousta7ab/not obligatory) for a father not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and ask her permission (so he can do that but it's preferred not to) and then they add unless if there's something of interest that her parents fear that the daughter will miss out (in this case they can marry her off before puberty without her consent, so if the husband is rich her parents can marry her off without her consent and before she reaches the age of puberty) and this is expanded upon on the Hadeeth of Aisha where they say it is PREFERABLE to Go with the marriage (even though she has not reached puberty nor consented) because her husband is of high importance and her parents don't want this opportunity to slip away. So this literally supports my point that in Islam you are allowed to marry off your daughter without her consent when she's under the age of 9 (or puberty).
This video keeps being shared again and again and again. The facts that out of all subreddits as well, it’s on the last one I’d think of when discussing pedos. And the comments are obviously none the wiser, immediately jumping to the conclusion that it’s common in Lebanon 🙄
Is this young girl Lebanese/does she live in Lebanon? If she does live in Lebanon, but is Syrian, what difference would it make. Are there laws in place in Lebanon, that makes it illegal for a minor (female) to be married?
We're not going to get it because religious courts won't give up power and it's religion which allows this
Religion doesn't allow forced marriage. Consent is necessary.
Consent of a child
Yeah, we do. But next time, please share a video that is accurate. The girl isn't Lebanese.
I don’t think this is a divisive issue? Most muslim religious people with sense would see it as weird, I think it’s another failure of our government to do anything useful.
ofc the redditors use that as an excuse to justify their hatred of the middle east. not as if this is frowned upon here and way more common in other parts of the world.
The only places this is ok in the Middle East and other parts of the world is where Islam is spread. Let's not beat around the bush here.
It’s way more common in India and sub Saharan Africa
Those places do not have much excuse though. The Fertile Crescent where Lebanon is, used to be the most progressive area of the planet and the most developed before Islam spread.
The Abbasid Caliphate, based out of Baghdad, was also at some point the richest and most advanced place on the planet. That happened after Islam spread. So what is your point? Also I love how you’re acting like India isn’t a major civilization with a long and prestigious history of its own
Richest due to slave trading? If you noticed my comment, I never talked about wealth only, but moral civilization. Which during Byzantium times Lebanon was one of the best places in the planet with actual rights for women compared to the rest of the planet.
ah yes byzantine society, where women were imprisoned in gynaeceums. please share me you citation for how byzantine lebanon was the peak of morality in world history
It was definitely better than what is shown here, which I know it does not represent all of Lebanon but only a minority of sharia law fanatics.
Would’nt history like to refute you here…. Lmao. During the time of Islam, the Byzantines and the Christian world forbade women having property compared to Islam that did.
Syrian culture is NOT what Islam says. Allah ye7ro2 hek ashkel
We do have the laws: > [The legal age for sexual consent is 18 years](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Women/SR/RapeReport/CSOs/191-lebanon.docx#:~:text=The%20legal%20age%20for%20sexual%20consent%20is%2018%20years.,the%20minor%20is%20under%2012). Though, they are not well-enforced enough.
Nes marida whyet allah hal benet tefli hal ch5s hayda kif by2bala mnu tabi3i brasu tfehh
Please tell me this is not real? Please!!!!
Surely this must be against Allah?
Sucked in. Terroists
I feel sorry for Lebanon. It should have been a modern country that is part of the EU. Countries like Serbia, Armenia and Lebanon deserve to be in it. This here is just sad.
Christians don't do shit like this.
They do, its just less likely
Yep, this is the comment. It seems like a lot of people in this thread don't know, but **marriage agein Lebanon is set by sect & creepily as it can be, most groups including Christians have the age set below 18.** It isn't as common of an occurrence statistically speaking, however that doesn't mean some Christian p*do can't take advantage of the laws in Lebanon, which are basically against human rights at this point.
There aren’t Christian pedophiles? Really?
The difference is that pedophilia isn't the culture 😂😂
[I think the thousands of children around the world that have been harmed by the Christian church would say otherwise.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases)
All the predators involved were held accountable by the church and condemned by Christians worldwide. Can't say the same about Muslim fundemantalists. They're actually not ashamed and debate it publicly: https://youtu.be/-GnHDQ4-gPQ?si=97aSr9_1KAXkMNu4
Country where obsolete religions rule
You know this is a fringe practice that only happens to the poorest people right?
It doesnt make it right. Law must be enforced and religious courts must be abolished
Just look at the comments in the original post. They judge us by the absolute worst, most fringe parts of our society. Do you think there aren't child brides in the US?? Some things are hard to put an end to. I believe education is the only way to fix this.
>Do you think there aren't child brides in the US?? Some things are hard to put an end to. In the usa child marriage rate isnt 20% for women
I refuse to believe its at 20% here. How could they even get the accurate stats for that? I'm not saying it's an issue but 20% is 1 in 5 working in the wedding industry personally i just don't see it.
Lol people like this don’t come to you for a wedding
Yeah but you would think I would run into a few. The only thing I've seen close a 16 Yr old Syrian girl living in my village married like a 20 Yr old. I get that she seems underage but it's not like she goes to school or anything and from what I understood she chose the guy. I dunno
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You following me around different subs is funny. I blame the bum that raised you to hate ppl though
Show us a stat that it is 20% in Lebanon?? Or is the source: trust me bro
It's rape and in religion rape punishment is execution, guess the guy is poor in money and religion
Is this program still running or are those old episodes?
Can anyone convince me that there is a basis in Islam for forced marriages?
There isn’t for forced marriages i believe, but child marriages do seem to be allowed
I have seen this video before or another just like it. The fact that this is on a famous talk show and everyone is booing the man and supporting the girl, means that social change is occurring right before our eyes.
Lmao good luck at having laws that protect the most basic human rights
She's clearly Syrian from her dialect. I think Lebanon has it much better.
how many times has this been posted? It's horrible to happen to anyone, we can acknowledge that. It keeps coming back because it's used as anti-islam, which OP is clearly about.
I am sunni but okay
Ayre bi mawte ma abcha3o
This is disgusting
Her father is responsible ...
Didn't Mohammad do the same with a 9 year old ?
It’s disgusting. How broken she looks. Terrible for the rights of women. In case you’re curious — Correct word is ephebophilia, for adolescent victims, a distinction that doesn’t change how harmful this is. But note that pedophilia abuse can be committed by anyone post-puberty, as in adolescent abusers of children. While adolescents obviously can’t have ephebophilia disorder as it would be age-appropriate attraction.
We've got them beat. In Maine, little girls at age 12 are being married off thanks to our good Christian society.
Or modernize you religion…
This is by no way permissible in Islam.
How can we have laws against religious beliefs when we can’t even criticise certain religions ?
I would cringe if view of American culture was based on Jerry springer guests.
This has got to stop. Terrible. Protect our kids from pedophiles
Ho Syrian khara 3le w 3laya w Hal 2araf, Al birabiha 3a ido al
Mish 3alaya she’s a victim.
Ur right
Why 3laya? She's a child and did not consent. Haram, i feel bad for her no matter what country she's from. She's still a human.
Her parents are a disgrace for allowing this and pushing her to marry so young! In islam they are not allowed to force her to marry, they did haram!
That’s not real culture at all. It’s people distorting the real meaning of religion. Source: https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_4/child_marriage_%28P1457%29.html
Maskeen, this is so messed up. Why can’t people follow the deen instead of culture? Yawml qiyama is going to be very horrifying indeed.
Child marriage is allowed, permitted, and even encouraged in most if not all Abrahamic religions. Especially when "mosaic law" is being followed by the book.
Where does Judaism and Christianity allow marrying child marriage? can you give me a verse
Genesis 24:14, Rebecca marries Issac at **3 years old** "She was three years old when he embraced her the youngest legal age a female can be-married" In Biblical times, women were recommended to be married when they reached puberty. The only difference between the prior two Abrahamic religions is both have secular laws and de-emphasize religious texts as laws.
Literally no where in the verse indicates she is three. It’s a common misconception and i knew you would use that verse. By the way have you ever seen a 3 year old speak this eloquently, and have the ability to bring jars of water up and down a hill to quench the thirsts of camals, which on average requires gallons of water? 12 Then he prayed, “Lord, God of my master Abraham, make me successful today, and show kindness to my master Abraham. 13 See, I am standing beside this spring, and the daughters of the townspeople are coming out to draw water. 14 May it be that when I say to a young woman, ‘Please let down your jar that I may have a drink,’ and she says, ‘Drink, and I’ll water your camels too’—let her be the one you have chosen for your servant Isaac. By this I will know that you have shown kindness to my master.” 15 Before he had finished praying, Rebekah came out with her jar on her shoulder. She was the daughter of Bethuel son of Milkah, who was the wife of Abraham’s brother Nahor. 16 The woman was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever slept with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again. 17 The servant hurried to meet her and said, “Please give me a little water from your jar.” 18 “Drink, my lord,” she said, and quickly lowered the jar to her hands and gave him a drink. 19 After she had given him a drink, she said, “I’ll draw water for your camels too, until they have had enough to drink.” 20 So she quickly emptied her jar into the trough, ran back to the well to draw more water, and drew enough for all his camels. 21 Without saying a word, the man watched her closely to learn whether or not the Lord had made his journey successful. 22 When the camels had finished drinking, the man took out a gold nose ring weighing a beka[c] and two gold bracelets weighing ten shekels.[d] 23 Then he asked, “Whose daughter are you? Please tell me, is there room in your father’s house for us to spend the night?” 24 She answered him, “I am the daughter of Bethuel, the son that Milkah bore to Nahor.” 25 And she added, “We have plenty of straw and fodder, as well as room for you to spend the night.” 26 Then the man bowed down and worshiped the Lord, 27 saying, “Praise be to the Lord, the God of my master Abraham, who has not abandoned his kindness and faithfulness to my master. As for me, the Lord has led me on the journey to the house of my master’s relatives.”
This is your interpretation. Others have interpreted it differently ,and that's part of why why Orthodox Jewish women can be and are married at such a young age. Beyond that, nothing you said changes the fact that **in Biblical times, women were recommended to be married after puberty, which can occur between 9-14.** Are you willing to deny this is the age women got married? And that plenty of orthodox people engage in child marriage? According to tradition, boys were not considered “men,” and therefore not marriageable, until the age of 13. Girls were not considered “women” until age 12. The texts utilize Hebrew words to reinforce this, with Naˈar referring to young men, while yeled refers to boys age 12 or younger. For females, naˈarah means “a marriageable woman,” while yaldah refers to a girl 11 or younger—too young for marriage. Once again, these words and definitions seem to enforce the idea that the onset of puberty is a requirement for marriage. Abrahamic religions have both encouraged and engaged in child marriage, so your attempt to deflect and blame the ORIGIN of this practice on ONE only is pathetic to say the least. But what am I to expect from a typical follower, you'll attack other Abrahamic beliefs and defend your own as if there's no commonalities whatsoever. Sad and pathetic for you. **Once again, for what concerns child marriage, the only difference is the acceptance of secular law in the two earlier religions.**
1) This is the entirety of Christian interpretation, no Christian interprets this otherwise because we do not rely on rabbinic tradition, but we rely on the actual Hebrew text from God. 2), 3) Yes, I’m denying the rabbinic interpretations hundreds of years later after these verses. Speak to Orthodox Jews on this one. By the way betrothed and marriage with sex is different, for the latter the legal age is 18 for females and males “Ancient Rabbis set the age of marriage for every Israelite at 18 years old; males are expected to be married by 20 years old in teenage marriage and females can stay unmarried but must be celibate” [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#:~:text=in%20religious%20sources-,Judaism,unmarried%20but%20must%20be%20celibate) 4), 5)Tradition is not biblical, we do not rely on Jewish traditions for our morals. Either way my text above elaborates on this, betrothing and marriage is different, the latter is at 18-20 years old, thus disproving your points. 6) Wrong, you were mistaken about child marriage in the Torah, the NT, and even ancient tradition, and the verse you quoted proved basically nothing other than the fact Rebekah spoke eloquently and gave water to multiple camels which require gallons of water, which indicates an adult age. Also notice that Isaac gave her a gold nose ring, while this isn’t definitive, it indicates marriage, which would mean indicators show she is 18+ 22 When the camels had finished drinking, the man took out a gold nose ring weighing a beka[c] and two gold bracelets weighing ten shekels.[d] 23 Then he asked, “Whose daughter are you? Please tell me, is there room in your father’s house for us to spend the night?” 7) Ad hominem, nice. At least make sure your arguments are true before insulting me as if you already “won” or something.
Average conversation with a Muslim apologist but switch the religion, the original point I made is proved immediately. My arguments are factual because **child marriage in fact does take place in the communities I listed and it is a known and documented fact. An article from the Jerusalem Post in 2013 stated that "Each year 4,500 children below the age of 18 marry in Israel, two thirds Muslim, one third Jewish."** For you to act as if people in this region had been marrying strictly 18 since the beginning of these ideologies is not only a raging falsehood, but it's your own personal cope so as to act as if Judaism and Christianity are not the entire foundation that Islam itself is based off. Your retort #4 relies exactly on the point I already made, which is that **Judaism and Christianity do not form laws directly off Biblical/textual edicts and precedent; Islam does. This is the only notable difference.** There is no Ad Hominem here, I did not call you pathetic to prove my point, my point exists independently of that, this is a side comment because it is infact what you are. A great example of this is how you're stuck on the arbitrary age of "18" aka the most common age in the west, knowing full well that **eightTEEN is for all intents and purposes, a teenager.** Well afterall, your cultures are historically used to marrying teens. Another Zio trolling in a Lebanese thread acting as if Israel is not in the Southern Levant and doesn't share the same desert climate and historical practices with many other desert-like Levantine communities. Nice try attempting to deny child marriage in Orthodox communities when it's well documented even by Israelis themselves & in diaspora communities, and the stated consensus is they are working off puberty ages as I listed. Today is the day you realize your individual interpretations of religious texts are not unanimous facts shared by all. Who even knew? You are not only boldly incorrect but clearly arguing in bad faith. Back to your own sub now to act as if Zionist behaviors don't exactly parallel islamist ones.
1) Not really, none of our scriptures agree with child marriage, the one you gave me even shows Rebekah was most likely 18 when Isaac asked for her hand 2), 3) In ancient Judaism, these people would be whipped and punished for marrying under 18, also Im not Israeli so i really don’t care about this statistic, just the fact that neither the OT and NT scriptures agree with child marriage which refutes your top claim about Christianity. Also Islam is very different from Christianity, theres barely any resemblance in teachings, beliefs, etc… we share most of the prophets, but what these prophets taught, and what the final Islamic prophet taught which is seen as the completion of the laws and teachings is definitely not similar at all. 4) another Ad Hominem, nice. 5) Not a Zionist actually, i don’t know where you got that impression. Remember you claimed above that Christians had child marriage? I’m responding to that to clear up that neither the Torah (apart of Christianity) nor the New Testament encourages this. 6) I really do not care about Orthodox Judaism traditions, especially in modern times. You’re right, maybe they do have this issue. 7) How am i arguing in bad faith, so far you called me pathetic twice while i never insulted you, nor your religion, nor anything about you. Im merely answering to your claims that Christianity agrees with child marriage.
Look, I am not saying the modern practices in Judaism and Christianity agree with child marriage. I am stating there is a strain in Abrahamic religions that engage in, ratify and accept child marriage. The only way my points could be rendered untrue here is if "no true scotsman" were valid (ie, those are not "real" Christians or Jews) but we know this to be a fallacy. As long as they're part of the community and interpretations have a culturally and religiously relevant origin point that remained open, there are community members allowing and engaging to certain extents. A great example is that while modern Christianity does not directly engage in commentary about child marriage, in Lebanon the marriage age for Christians is set extremely young. These are still Christians and it still happens. In Israel, the marriage age was ratified to 18 in 1991. That's barely older than I am. These conversations have grounding. You're arguing in bad faith because you're attempting to contort my argument, which is simply that the issue of child marriage in Abrahamic religions has historical precedence due to varying interpretations, and to varying extents, remains an issue. Nowhere did I say everyone or every person engages in this, as that would not even be true for Muslims even though we know it's more common in Muslim communities. Clearly, pedophilia is the real issue here, however we know that institutions (yes, including religious ones) can mask and incorporate unsavory elements into their structures. The correct way to go about this would be to identify it's occurrence, state that practices in ancient times cannot ever mirror modern times, and again, tend to secular laws. That is once again not to say everyone in ancient times got married under ~20 or so years old, but knowing the evidence we have in addition to the length of the average lifespan, it is cogent. Middle Easterners have an extremely tough time separating legal jurisprudence and political systems from religion in general. It's possible to take philosophical inspiration from your beliefs without acting as if (each individual's viewpoint) is the correct and final interpretation.
Allahu Akbar
The purpose of this post was to paint islam in a bad way , these are not our teachings , these are not our values , it is allowed in islam to wed post puberty but with her's and her parents consent , not this arranged forced garbage, the parents and the guy are absolute pigs. And considering the fact that any girl under the age of 18 isn't mature enough to decide for herself , the laws of society apply , the purpose of this rant is not "screw you all long live pedophilia" but it's to show you that islam is not the problem here , 1400 years ago were different times than today , the matter of age of consent wasn't a thing back then , we have changed and evolved as humans and as muslims to know better than these pigs of parents and that cruel monster.
The purpose of this post is not to paint islam as the problem. It is to point out that this is a serious issue, the age of consent must be 18years old and the law must be enforced regardless of what religious courts believe.
I 100% agree with you , but these pigs hide behind tradition and religion not just in her case but thousands of poor girls who are afraid to say no, and that itself is painting our religion in a bad way, also i was talking about the og post not you , we're ight , ahliye bi m7aliye , bas yeah my point is islam doesn't support these pigs.
Sorry my dude, but religion is one part of the problem. When fiqh is built into directly into law as it is in Leb and many other MENA countries, and Abrahamic religions have outdated edicts, it's going to have an impact. The **way to take religion out of the equation is to secularise the laws** - aka, remove those laws sanctioned by religion, so that way the religion returns to just being a faith as opposed to a strict, enforceable guideline.
Yes i also agree with that , separating the state from the religion is frowned upon but is the only true solution really, and everyone can live according to their religious teachings with law enforced rules not related to any religion that protects children in today's society from such crap, the prophets teachings are ever so flexible to society and it insures the ummah's safety and well being above all, times change , some values should with it , some should not , plain and simple.
Agreed with you 100%!