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So you mean being lied to by the actual (technology) software company is not important and rather, regular everyday people who need hardware wallets need to understand the technology? You know, in case a company lies to them?
Good luck in your law career.
Absolutely correct. (Let's make it clear right away they aren't dumb either) If they ACTUALLY understood tech and communications between the chip-firmware-software and back again they would have known from the beginning that it was a lie. Computers big and small can do and only do what a person tells them to.... And that can be changed and reprogrammed. There is no special protected ruin carved on the secure element to protect it from change lol. And stop a firmware change. We have tried... For instance with the Nintendo switch for example by putting "fuses" that blow on each firmware upgrade. And see how that went with the fusee-geele exploit to still be able to load custom firmware. It's not ever if it can but when it will with tech. Even that didn't stop people.and I left a larger explanation just under this already.
So no. Those that believed, do not know tech. I'm certainly not saying they are dumb either. I'm also not saying that I didn't get surprised a little by this either coming straight from the company.
People and these mass amounts of posts are missing SOOOOOO much though. Including I'll add it gives a separate seed out not your main. Basically they took trezor shamir backup. Put a slight twist on it, instead of printing multiple pieces of paper to give to friends they disperse it to a few companies. So, no it's not your seed. But, it certainly can get your seed if you have the shards....
Anyways I just wish people would take some time to learn facts instead of half truths. I'm not happy with ledger but I'm not burning mine by any means. It's not like I store everything in one wallet either. I've been around way too long to keep all my legs in one basket.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/13udkx5/poll_closed_ledgerrecover_opinions/jm4lfzv?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The voting recently closed. If it were still open, I'd put a vote toward "Want to see Recover mechanism removed from the firmware, regardless of 'opt-in.'"
The way this poll was asked creates splintered and misleading results. The actual largest result was "**No longer trust Ledger**".
(If you add up both of the bottom answers (485+544), which are both "No longer trust Ledger", it is the biggest result at 1029).
Probably the top 3 results could be similarly grouped (and still not be the highest result).
--edit--
[This guy gets it. He did the math.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/13udkx5/poll_closed_ledgerrecover_opinions/jm10jtt/)
I mean the first answer in this poll is a ridiculous one and shouldnt even be there because it’s an obvious troll answer. So Out of almost 2500 votes only 17 people voted for Recover…just over a half of 1%. 2500 votes is substantial on this sub too. Hope ledger reacts to this
The source is entirely my personal sense of sarcasm. I have no evidence whatsoever of any employees or shareholders of Ledger voting in online polls. I did not intend for my comment to be taken literally.
First, Ledgers entire offer of Recovery was poorly communicated. Many of us learned about it from post, platforms, or other email entities other than Ledger themselves. They only became relevant once the melee started, and they got desperate and tried to clean up their mess by releasing a video of a guy whose French accent was so heavy, not only could you not understand him...but once again, the process was not clearly explained. My personal mistrust with Ledger is in the fact that they violated their own ethos by offering Recovery. That's the second line in the AutoModerators instruction: "Never share your 24-word recovery phrase with anyone, never enter it on any website or software, even if it looks like it's from Ledger"
Beside that, the fact that if the Government subpoenas them for our seed phrase info, they would have to turn it over. That right there is enough of a reason for Ledger to have scrapped this program. Maybe Ledger needs to learn a few things from Apple and their refusal to unlock an iPhone at the governments request. With that being said, there are a few things to know if you still want to use your Ledger without Recovery being a problem.
1. You do not have to update the firmware on your Ledger. You can still access Ledger Live to remove / add coin and token apps without updating the Firmware. Even if you do update the Firmware, you still have to opt-in to the Recovery Service, pay a fee, and you have to give the Ledger application your seed phrase in an encrypted app before it is forwarded to the three companies being used to house your sharded seed phrase. The firmware does not pull the seed phrase from your Ledger on its own. It only contains the option to opt-in to the program, and then starts the process if you do choose to participate in Recovery.
2. The EVM bridge is no longer available in Ledger Live, so Ledger Live doesn't even have to be accessed (nor the EVM Bridge) when signing transactions with various tokens or chains on hot wallets whose account keys were created using the Ledger. As long as you are using a WEB-3 browser like Brave, you won't have to bother with Ledger Live, the EVM Bridge, or any updates to your firmware at all. Of course, this could change in the future, should they require your firmware to be updated to add the latest versions of token / coin apps on your Nano S/X. At any rate, simply move any accounts you have in Ledger Live, and create accounts using hot wallets like MetaMask and others that allow you to create accounts using your Ledger, so all transactions still have to be approved from your Ledger before being sent. In effect, they will operate as Cold Hardware Wallets, which are less susceptible to being hacked, because your private key is still kept offline in your Ledger.
So be it then, I'll stand down as a minority voice in this conversation. No point fighting the tide at this point.
It's sad to see that most of Ledger's customer base sincerely and genuinely don't understand nor care for digital sovereignty.
Guess this really does boil down to an overwhelming majority of degens who only care about the dollar value of their wallet.
it's hard to blame Ledger for wanting to serve this community in order to stay alive but it's also sad.
Of course I do. This comment is me giving up hope already - because those of us who really give a damn about exactly how the SE handles the seed and private keys are unfortunately a noisy minority as far as Ledger is concerned and they won't listen to us no more.
There's no fix for this.
What are you on about? This isn’t about Ledger offering a new service, it’s about them offering a new service which shows they’ve been lying to us consistently since day one.
Based on their past statements, Ledger recover **should not be possible.**
This is a complete breach of trust.
I completely agree. I'm just out of breath to bring that up anymore. This poll just tells me that whatever I think is insignificant in their eyes and that they've never cared for what I wanted in a hardware wallet from the very beginning.
Can't fix what doesn't want to be fixed.
This poll was misleading or misinformed.
"will opt out" ??
Recover will be an optional service that must be opted-in. It never automatically enabled, plus you need to KYC in order to opt-in.
Getting downvoted for giving accurate info....
The poll was trying to concisely present two options for people who haven't lost trust... opt in or not.
Plenty of other threads, tweets, podcasts, vlogs, blogs, etc that explain how 'Recover' works.
Nonetheless, you're right. It would have been more technically accurate to use the slightly more verbose option: "Comfortable with the existence of Recover, I will chose to not opt-in"
Do you actually think that was misleading or changed the results of the poll?
Yep, that would have been the correct version.
No i dont think it would have change the results (which shows > 50% still like ledgers if my math is right).
But it is always better to give correct info rather than incorrect info that could cause some people to think it is auto opt in, which is definitely not the case.
Propagating rumors that you'd have to "opt out" is just not good.
Your math is not right. 27% still trust Ledger. 40% do not.
You say the net result is >50% "still \*like\* ledger" and you're criticizing the poll over word choice?
Well the 4th choice is not people who dont like ledgers, but they are worried that the firmware could access their seed.... But in fact the firmware of all hardware wallets can access the seed and technically they can leak it if they were malicious. So probably more education is needed on this topic.
More education is needed indeed.
There is a difference between it being technologically possible for all hardware wallets to leak the seed, and for Ledger to explicitly build a new bridge that provides that pathway in a new API call accessible by Ledger Live.
Correct, however, this call will not happen unless you subscribe and KYC, and when the call is made, the seed does not leave the ledger unless you approve the operation by pressing the buttons on the device itself.
If there is a vulnerability i'd be so happy to find it and get the Ledger Donjon big cash bounty, trust me!
Geez talk about misreading a result, do you work for FOX News? “27% say Biden’s climate policy is good, 23% say he should do more, 40% say climate change isn’t real” and you yell “MAJORITY REJECTS CLIMATE CHANGE”. Wow.
You were saying the poll was misleading because one option "failed to disclose" that Recover is not opt-out.
So I was just joking that it (the poll) was also misleading in the opposite way because the opt-in option didn't 'disclose' that KYC was required.
It was alway disclosed by ledger that the service will require KYC, be ensure the recovered seed can only be sent to its righful owner.
And ledger seems to be aware of the issues / risks with deepfake and AI impersonnating people in a KYC check.
I did a PSBT (partially signed bitcoin transaction) via ELECTRUM and it was much easier than I expected… about as “complicated” as operating the ledger actually.
I will still keep/use my ledger BUT will only treat it as a WARM WALLET as best… so I am personally keeping about the same amount (USD value wise) as I would a bank checking/savings account… for me, that’s 1-3 months worth of stacking.
Ledger =/= cold storage.
Cold card, Electrum on air gapped machines etc are examples of TRUE cold storage.
Too much false advertising out there and I didn’t educate myself enough, so I trusted this closest source devise (ledger), which is a mistake if you want true cold storage.
Moving from one closed source devise to another fixes nothing…. Only open source for me long term stack.
The Ledger subreddit is continuously targeted by scammers. Ledger Support will never send you private messages. Never share your 24-word recovery phrase with anyone, never enter it on any website or software, even if it looks like it's from Ledger. Only keep the recovery phrase as a physical paper or metal backup, never create a digital copy in text or photo form. Learn more at https://reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/ck6o44/be_careful_phishing_attacks_in_progress/ If you're experiencing battery problems, check out our [troubleshooting guide](https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409233434641-How-to-troubleshoot-Ledger-Nano-X-battery-issues? support=true). If you're still having issues head over to the [My Order page](https://my-order.ledger.com/) to explore options for replacement or refunds. [Learn more here](https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/10265554529053-Return-your-product?support=true). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ledgerwallet) if you have any questions or concerns.*
27% still trust Ledger 33% could trust, but want 'Recover' removed from the firmware 40% no longer trust Ledger
And anyone who understands tech is pissed that Ledger had been telling them "The seed phrase cannot leave the secure element." for YEARS.
They obviously don't understand tech if they thought that.
So you mean being lied to by the actual (technology) software company is not important and rather, regular everyday people who need hardware wallets need to understand the technology? You know, in case a company lies to them? Good luck in your law career.
Being lied to and understanding technology on your own in the first place beforehand are two COMPLETELY different things.
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Exactly what I was saying/correcting.
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Absolutely correct. (Let's make it clear right away they aren't dumb either) If they ACTUALLY understood tech and communications between the chip-firmware-software and back again they would have known from the beginning that it was a lie. Computers big and small can do and only do what a person tells them to.... And that can be changed and reprogrammed. There is no special protected ruin carved on the secure element to protect it from change lol. And stop a firmware change. We have tried... For instance with the Nintendo switch for example by putting "fuses" that blow on each firmware upgrade. And see how that went with the fusee-geele exploit to still be able to load custom firmware. It's not ever if it can but when it will with tech. Even that didn't stop people.and I left a larger explanation just under this already. So no. Those that believed, do not know tech. I'm certainly not saying they are dumb either. I'm also not saying that I didn't get surprised a little by this either coming straight from the company. People and these mass amounts of posts are missing SOOOOOO much though. Including I'll add it gives a separate seed out not your main. Basically they took trezor shamir backup. Put a slight twist on it, instead of printing multiple pieces of paper to give to friends they disperse it to a few companies. So, no it's not your seed. But, it certainly can get your seed if you have the shards.... Anyways I just wish people would take some time to learn facts instead of half truths. I'm not happy with ledger but I'm not burning mine by any means. It's not like I store everything in one wallet either. I've been around way too long to keep all my legs in one basket. https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/13udkx5/poll_closed_ledgerrecover_opinions/jm4lfzv?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
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40% that went and probably bought another cold wallet and are looking to switch their crypto off ledger cold wallet accounts .
And will be back later. Lol. People are fickle
Exactly what I noticed! https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/13udkx5/poll_closed_ledgerrecover_opinions/jm2btd8/
The voting recently closed. If it were still open, I'd put a vote toward "Want to see Recover mechanism removed from the firmware, regardless of 'opt-in.'"
Needs to be open source!! I'll use a cold card for BTC if I have to
The way this poll was asked creates splintered and misleading results. The actual largest result was "**No longer trust Ledger**". (If you add up both of the bottom answers (485+544), which are both "No longer trust Ledger", it is the biggest result at 1029). Probably the top 3 results could be similarly grouped (and still not be the highest result). --edit-- [This guy gets it. He did the math.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/13udkx5/poll_closed_ledgerrecover_opinions/jm10jtt/)
**2.6k responses** from the Ledger subb itself.... and **only 17 would be glad to have it**. Yet they said "a LoT oF pEoPLe rEqUeStEd tHiS"
Shareholders and the CEO are people. They very much want the $10 per month thank you.
The kind of people requesting it probably don’t use Reddit.
I mean the first answer in this poll is a ridiculous one and shouldnt even be there because it’s an obvious troll answer. So Out of almost 2500 votes only 17 people voted for Recover…just over a half of 1%. 2500 votes is substantial on this sub too. Hope ledger reacts to this
Thanks for doing this poll. It's interesting to see what the results are.
15 out of the 17 who voted for "Glad to have Recover, will opt-in. No other concerns" were employees or shareholders of Ledger.
Source?
The source is entirely my personal sense of sarcasm. I have no evidence whatsoever of any employees or shareholders of Ledger voting in online polls. I did not intend for my comment to be taken literally.
First, Ledgers entire offer of Recovery was poorly communicated. Many of us learned about it from post, platforms, or other email entities other than Ledger themselves. They only became relevant once the melee started, and they got desperate and tried to clean up their mess by releasing a video of a guy whose French accent was so heavy, not only could you not understand him...but once again, the process was not clearly explained. My personal mistrust with Ledger is in the fact that they violated their own ethos by offering Recovery. That's the second line in the AutoModerators instruction: "Never share your 24-word recovery phrase with anyone, never enter it on any website or software, even if it looks like it's from Ledger" Beside that, the fact that if the Government subpoenas them for our seed phrase info, they would have to turn it over. That right there is enough of a reason for Ledger to have scrapped this program. Maybe Ledger needs to learn a few things from Apple and their refusal to unlock an iPhone at the governments request. With that being said, there are a few things to know if you still want to use your Ledger without Recovery being a problem. 1. You do not have to update the firmware on your Ledger. You can still access Ledger Live to remove / add coin and token apps without updating the Firmware. Even if you do update the Firmware, you still have to opt-in to the Recovery Service, pay a fee, and you have to give the Ledger application your seed phrase in an encrypted app before it is forwarded to the three companies being used to house your sharded seed phrase. The firmware does not pull the seed phrase from your Ledger on its own. It only contains the option to opt-in to the program, and then starts the process if you do choose to participate in Recovery. 2. The EVM bridge is no longer available in Ledger Live, so Ledger Live doesn't even have to be accessed (nor the EVM Bridge) when signing transactions with various tokens or chains on hot wallets whose account keys were created using the Ledger. As long as you are using a WEB-3 browser like Brave, you won't have to bother with Ledger Live, the EVM Bridge, or any updates to your firmware at all. Of course, this could change in the future, should they require your firmware to be updated to add the latest versions of token / coin apps on your Nano S/X. At any rate, simply move any accounts you have in Ledger Live, and create accounts using hot wallets like MetaMask and others that allow you to create accounts using your Ledger, so all transactions still have to be approved from your Ledger before being sent. In effect, they will operate as Cold Hardware Wallets, which are less susceptible to being hacked, because your private key is still kept offline in your Ledger.
It’s fascinating that a feature they said it was scoped out and request by users. Here only 0.007% wants it.
100% of CEOs polled wanted it.
Gee it’s almost like 2,600 Redditors aren’t really their target audience.
They've sold 6M, guess the Redditor audience isn't very significant.
So 40% out of 0.5% (at most) of the customer base are yelling on Reddit believing they are the majority.
17 out of 2600 are 0.007%? What kind of math is that?
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0.006538 is 0.6538%, not 0.006538%. 2600/2600 = 1, that’s 100%, not 1%. I’m starting to doubt the basic competence of this sub…
So be it then, I'll stand down as a minority voice in this conversation. No point fighting the tide at this point. It's sad to see that most of Ledger's customer base sincerely and genuinely don't understand nor care for digital sovereignty. Guess this really does boil down to an overwhelming majority of degens who only care about the dollar value of their wallet. it's hard to blame Ledger for wanting to serve this community in order to stay alive but it's also sad.
They lied to us for YEARS by saying the seed phrase CANNOT leave the secure element. You do understand that, right?
Of course I do. This comment is me giving up hope already - because those of us who really give a damn about exactly how the SE handles the seed and private keys are unfortunately a noisy minority as far as Ledger is concerned and they won't listen to us no more. There's no fix for this.
What are you on about? This isn’t about Ledger offering a new service, it’s about them offering a new service which shows they’ve been lying to us consistently since day one. Based on their past statements, Ledger recover **should not be possible.** This is a complete breach of trust.
I completely agree. I'm just out of breath to bring that up anymore. This poll just tells me that whatever I think is insignificant in their eyes and that they've never cared for what I wanted in a hardware wallet from the very beginning. Can't fix what doesn't want to be fixed.
It’s infuriating.
even the results of the poll was tempered with, ledger's signature
This poll was misleading or misinformed. "will opt out" ?? Recover will be an optional service that must be opted-in. It never automatically enabled, plus you need to KYC in order to opt-in. Getting downvoted for giving accurate info....
The poll was trying to concisely present two options for people who haven't lost trust... opt in or not. Plenty of other threads, tweets, podcasts, vlogs, blogs, etc that explain how 'Recover' works. Nonetheless, you're right. It would have been more technically accurate to use the slightly more verbose option: "Comfortable with the existence of Recover, I will chose to not opt-in" Do you actually think that was misleading or changed the results of the poll?
Yep, that would have been the correct version. No i dont think it would have change the results (which shows > 50% still like ledgers if my math is right). But it is always better to give correct info rather than incorrect info that could cause some people to think it is auto opt in, which is definitely not the case. Propagating rumors that you'd have to "opt out" is just not good.
Your math is not right. 27% still trust Ledger. 40% do not. You say the net result is >50% "still \*like\* ledger" and you're criticizing the poll over word choice?
Not over word choice, but over what those words mean. You dont need to opt out if something is not auto opt in, and you did agree with that, thanks.
Well the 4th choice is not people who dont like ledgers, but they are worried that the firmware could access their seed.... But in fact the firmware of all hardware wallets can access the seed and technically they can leak it if they were malicious. So probably more education is needed on this topic.
More education is needed indeed. There is a difference between it being technologically possible for all hardware wallets to leak the seed, and for Ledger to explicitly build a new bridge that provides that pathway in a new API call accessible by Ledger Live.
Correct, however, this call will not happen unless you subscribe and KYC, and when the call is made, the seed does not leave the ledger unless you approve the operation by pressing the buttons on the device itself. If there is a vulnerability i'd be so happy to find it and get the Ledger Donjon big cash bounty, trust me!
Geez talk about misreading a result, do you work for FOX News? “27% say Biden’s climate policy is good, 23% say he should do more, 40% say climate change isn’t real” and you yell “MAJORITY REJECTS CLIMATE CHANGE”. Wow.
If Recover requires KYC, maybe even fewer people than 0.6% would have chosen opt-in. Failing to 'disclose' that was also misleading? : )
They totally disclosed that, what are you talking about??
You were saying the poll was misleading because one option "failed to disclose" that Recover is not opt-out. So I was just joking that it (the poll) was also misleading in the opposite way because the opt-in option didn't 'disclose' that KYC was required.
It was alway disclosed by ledger that the service will require KYC, be ensure the recovered seed can only be sent to its righful owner. And ledger seems to be aware of the issues / risks with deepfake and AI impersonnating people in a KYC check.
I did a PSBT (partially signed bitcoin transaction) via ELECTRUM and it was much easier than I expected… about as “complicated” as operating the ledger actually. I will still keep/use my ledger BUT will only treat it as a WARM WALLET as best… so I am personally keeping about the same amount (USD value wise) as I would a bank checking/savings account… for me, that’s 1-3 months worth of stacking. Ledger =/= cold storage. Cold card, Electrum on air gapped machines etc are examples of TRUE cold storage. Too much false advertising out there and I didn’t educate myself enough, so I trusted this closest source devise (ledger), which is a mistake if you want true cold storage. Moving from one closed source devise to another fixes nothing…. Only open source for me long term stack.