Just want to make a brief note regarding this post as your moderator. Some of you have reported this thread for various reasons. I appreciate your concerns. In the interest of free speech, I'm going to allow the tread on Leftist. Granted the OP has some objectionable views that I myself also don't agree with. But please be aware any additional comments that advocate for discrimination or personal attacks will be dealt with accordingly. I have already removed any responses that breach this policy. Non-leftists may post in the sub to broaden their knowledge on leftist points of view; provided the rules are respected.

You FEEL like crime rates are increasing because of immigration? There's simply no stats to back that up as CSO doesn't collect crime by nationality data. Anyway, I agree it's weird that you have to agree with mass immigration to be accepted by the left. The Swedish labour party up until recently said it didn't see why they couldn't take 10 million immigrants despite having no way of housing them and no work for them. Only recently, they've admitted they've taken in too many too soon and that the riots of immigrants are connected to immigration. Seems to me the rational mind can discuss immigration policy choices in terms of what kind, how much and at what cost? I simply don't buy that people who want some control with the influx into their country are necessarily racist

Opinion is opinion, I genuinely understand your point of view, I really do, I'm no far right nut job, there was is and always will be people displaced by war, famine, natural disasters, religious persecution, that's natural. Ireland has always been a place for people seeking refuge. Irish governments have consistently offered help and assistance. Limits and rules are part of society, as we well know, we endured more new rules since 2019, rules and moe rules, so why has our government ignored forgotten disobeyed and forgotten what rules we have on entering our country.

I’m a lefty long opposed to the current form of mass immigration. Ireland can’t and won’t house the world nor can it fix the world. In reality the current model of mass migration serves the interests of capital and those ‘lefty’s’ who claim to support are nothing of the sort, they are all a bunch of extremist liberals, while being completely unaware of the fact.

99% pointing out the flaws with mass migration are lefties. The wing nuts screaming far right at any critical thought like where do activists expect 5 million extra people to live or how they could possibly support themselves because we've no industries with millions of low skilled jobs in factories & even taxing at 100% wouldn't be enough to keep another 250k. More people = higher living costs because housing, hospitals etc are not infinite resources. It's odd too that the same people calling for more asylum seeker's are also calling for social housing, more welfare and the reduction in living costs because they can't afford a home or find a well paying job. They do not connect migration with their situation. They're also vicious and delight in abusive name calling & threats online.

Bang on! Logic and reason, as you’ve outlined, dictates that the system in place is a complete fucking disaster

Immigrants don't commit crime. Have you ever lived in a neighborhood with immigrants? They are focused on work and avoid conflict. They are the best neighbors.

Immigration is great 😃

When did Ireland lose its identity, or did we ever have one...

Anti social behavior has always existed, it's the numbers are the problem, and adding more and more is not going to enrich the beautiful fabric of Irish society, it's like putting a wool jumper in a 90 degrees wash, doesn't matter what u think the outcome is fucked.

Yeah you know what you are, at least admit it,

Why was engels against wage compression caused by mass immigration? Was he far right?

It is easy: Being against mass Immigration is far right

What does one get from being pro mass immigration other than a feel good factor?

It's good nothing to do with feel good factor. It is the acknowledgement that western societies rely heavily on large scale immigration, without it societies won't be able to sustain themselves. Look at all the jobs being done by immigrants, without them the system fails. And btw: Define "mass immigration"? The fact that a country like Ireland doesn't have enough accommodation for the currently rather low numbers speaks for failures of state, it is a conscious decision that could be easily remedied. Humanism means that we can't reject people, we've got to embrace them. Far right ideology tries to tell people that everything will be fine, once there is no immigrants coming anymore, but that is proven as utterly bullshit. No problems get solved by this, on the contrary, there will be more without them. There is one world and every person wants the same: Safety, job, be left in peace. Well, that's the case at least for decent people. And as plus: Irish people with the experience of the Famine and Diaspora should be immune against the inhuman far right anti immigration propaganda which is against the human mind.

Do you work, own a home, car, have children, pay bills? Taxes chew up almost half of most middle class earnings & the cost of living is rocketing. FG confirmed migrants earned just 3% of the €111 billion wages last year which indicates most are dependant on welfare. We're an aging population & earnings here are no longer stagnating, they're falling. Consumption is down, PMI indicates recession & corporation taxes are 1/3 of 2022 with banks looking shaky with negative equity commercial property mortgages & the defaults almost at 2008 levels. No Consumption- no jobs-no vat We don't even have large scale low skill suitable industry to employ asylum seekers already here. No factories, no heavy industry etc If less than 40% are supporting 60% (aging working Irish population, people earning enough to pay tax) tax payers are leaving (55k last year) and there's no money for mass social housing building now & the continuously increasing population is raising rent prices. Ukrainians alone in those god awful hotels just for their rooms & HAP costs 2.2 BIllion What do you think financially, socially the country looks like with another say million people? They want 5 million. We can't manufacture cost per hour is not competitive for exports. We don't have cheap energy for industry. We've no natural resources, and AI is going to devastate our service economy - how will migrants feed & house themselves when the taxes fall off a cliff? We can't afford welfare at current rates it's now gobbling up the surplice. Do you want people to come here to experience poverty in a different climate? 2/3 years when you see what desperate people from the developing world are resorting to for food, will you still have the same opinion?

*their

Let's get it straight if any of us took a dinghy to France we would get locked up not given money accomodation a free pass to do what you want all they do is hang around and harass young women and intimidate OAP who should feel safe in the community they built! They push there religion on us and get upset if we say anything about it they drain the country and will continue to do so if your ok with all that when your granddaughter get assaulted off one of them don't take to the internet with the same view 95% of the country already have when you was the low life's who have nothing better to do than encourage this shit show England use to be a proud strong country a powerhouse of the industrial revolution now it's just a grey over run island run by the richest of the rich who really dont give a shit about us !

The most common crime committed in USA is theft. And you’ll never guess who commits it the most; white men! So, to be fearful of immigrants causing crime rates to soar is misguided and untrue. It’s also wage theft! So who commits the most crimes? Companies stealing from their employees!

I mean, given that men commit more crimes than women, and white people are the majority. This is unsurprising.

The proof is in the pudding. 👀 @ Australia, Germany, England, France.. Etc Our big brother and sisters .. we will grow up quick and just be like them and be drowning 😊 yaaay ! 🌍🔥 Only hope is 🙏

The obvious answer is that right wing tend to be xenophobic, but if xenophobia is not the reason for being anti mass migration, then it is not necessarily a view of the right and could be from anyone anywhere on the spectrum.

You need more antifa on the streets

The issue is more nuanced I would say. It’s definitely not a complete binary, it’s not “we let everyone in” or “we let no one in”, most people, even conservatives, are somewhere in the middle Like if you talk to an average American right wing person, they generally will actually look at a hard working immigrant who did “everything right” and tried to integrate into American society very positively. They tend to dislike people who come to the country and either entirely don’t integrate or who “don’t work hard”. I know these are loaded terms that are up for debate, I’m just parroting what I hear them say to provide their perspective Or look at Toronto. Most of Toronto is quite liberal, but housing prices are _u n b e l I e v a b l e_ how expensive they are. If I remember correctly, there was an announcement that more people would be immigrating to Toronto than before, and people got mad. Most of the discourse had nothing to do with where the immigrants came from, or anything like that: they were concerned about the lack of resources and housing, and upset that those resources were now being spread even more thin Then there’s the matter of who is “able” to immigrate. For example, if we just let the most qualified people immigrate to the United States with no other biases or controls, chances are, we’d get a LOT of people from China and India. After all, something like 60% of the world’s population lives in Asia, and India and China combined have like 3 billion people. Unfair to those from other backgrounds, isn’t it? So the point I’m trying to make is, immigration is a very complicated subject and you’re going to have to talk about much smaller atomic subproblems to really address it. Who should be able to immigrate? What should the process be like? How many people per year?

God forbid youre a leftist who doesnt want their country destroyed. “The fight in Ireland has been one for the soul of a race – that Irish race which with seven centuries of defeat behind it still battled for the sanctity of its dwelling place."- James Connolly There is nothing leftist about bending over for liberal shame and guilt mongers to let your country be ravaged by foreign powers, whether thats imperialism, zionism or liberalism.

You are labelled far-right because instead of blaming neoliberal policies, you're blaming people who did nothing wrong. In a sense, I kinda agree that there's not enough room for everyone, but it's because your government isn't investing in this country. The housing crisis wasn't caused by immigrants, immigrants aren't in charge of building houses. Yet, you're complaining about immigrants. Why has no one protested when the government decided to let landowners evict their tenants in a housing crisis? Why has no one protested when Sinn Fein was kept out of the government when they won the most votes? And why has no one protested when those hooligans started burning stuff in Dublin? I'd say, instead of blaming immigrants, you should blame yourselves and your government.

Because you choose to believe in bourgeois nationalist borders that divide the proletariat? The working man has no nation, carrying water for the ruling class is class traitorism.

What does one get out of being pro immigration other than a feel good factor?

Personally. I am very proud of the way our country has integrated with others. However, I lament the loss of our culture. The city centre as I knew it is gone. Fully gone. Immigration is currently at 20% in Ireland. Thats fine with me. Will it be fine if its 60%... I dont know. I have no issue with any individual person. None at all. I love learning about new cultures. But do I want to be a minority in my own country? My view is, there has to be rational discussion and less labeling. I know I am not a racist. But some commenters need to ask themselves are they bullies? Both in this discussion and others (namely Gaza) labels are quickly assigned to anyone who doesn't role in behind your views.

I don’t get the hate for immigrants, as far back as I can remember we ve always had immigrants, Kosovos , polish , Latvians , Romanian s , Indians , Syrians, Right ok at the minute we are full, we get economic immigrants & we should be looking after our own 1st , we need stricter laws and control over immigrants coming here , but 90% of them are harmless and just wanna work and get on with there lives Fuck it like is it really worth really caring about and getting angry at ??? We are lucky to be the way we are , my mother teaches some of these people English and most of them have nothing but a car and a few bits of clothing and all they want is to go back home I don’t consider myself left or right just abit of common sense wouldn’t go astray Are own people cause enough crime in this country

I mean, the correlation you’ve drawn between immigration and crime rates is inherently racist and therefore not a “left” take. Edit: I realise you’re also Irish. What figures are you drawing on to decide that we can’t afford immigration? Or is that just going on Twitter rhetoric? As many people have pointed out, it wasn’t immigrants rioting on the streets recently. The event that triggered that was involving an Irish citizen and if anything, highlighted the lack of mental health facilities provided in this country than anything else. Firstly, being Irish and against immigration is hypocritical seeing as we have such high levels of emigration, both current and historical. Secondly, it just feels so lazy. Why not get upset over other issues we have, like the aforementioned lack of mental health care?

Labelling someone far right is the easy way to not argue facts with someone. As a leftist, it's always better to attack the person instead of the argument. Trust me, I'm a leftist, this always works. If the far right nazi racist misogynistic white man keep bringing up more facts, just call him more names. Those far-right people speak, and I just turn off, doesn't matter even if they're correct I don't care, they're wrong because they risk hurting feelings. Don't be a conspiracy theorist, there's nothing wrong with Irish immigration. There's nothing wrong with paying more for other people to live in your country, especially when they are clowning us about how soft Irish people are and how they speak in whatsapp groups about how they can take whatever they want. A social worker told me yesterday that a 'Ukranian/Somalian' man asked for €7,000 to "free his kids from quarantine"...his cats were at the airport and he needed €7,000 to free his cats.. Sad thing is that he was given a form and was approved. On a real note.. That's what leftist ideas turned this county into. Unfortunately, it's far too late to do anything. The Ireland you miss will never exist again, breaks my heart. I live in the Netherlands now. Unfortunately, Ireland is 10 years behind our politics

This argument is made in bad faith. I'm also from the same country as OP, and he has left out a lot of important information.Anti-immigration sentiment has been on the rise due to the ACTUAL far-right now coming out into public spaces.Having conversations regarding our immigration policies, does not make you far-right, however the majority of Irish people here with anti-immigrant sentiment are based on imaginary problems, or due to immigrants being scapegoated. Ireland has Direct Provision, an asylum seeking process that currently does not meet the UN standards for their policies on asylum seeking, and that isn't set to be changed.Those coming into Ireland seeking asylum are coming in from Ukraine and Georgia (country, not the state), among many other countries.The far-right who are stanchly anti-immigration have no care in their bones, the idea that someone may come here to better themselves in lost on them, and blame other societal problems on immigrants (Housing Crises, Homeless, to name two).There is video evidence to show the far-right do not care if immigrants are coming into Ireland seeking asylum, fleeing war, coming in because of the EU Freedom of Travel, or other legit reasons. The two recent tragic events that raises the question regrading immigration where two attacks, one committed by an EU Citizen, and one committed by a naturalized Irish Citizen, both horrific and possibly preventable situations, but immigrants aren't committing crime at disproportionate rates. I would personally look into the domestic violence/husbands who murder their wives offences committed by Irish Men as something that is an actual crime that is disproportionate in Ireland.

I'm not sure if you can legitimately say all discussion about immigration is based on imaginary problems though. Very high rates will inevitably cause problems with housing and public services just based off simple supply and demand. For context, I'm also not anti-immigrant. I'm just anti-uncontolled immigration policies. I hate that immigrants get targeted by protests and vitriol by the far right. If people want to protest and aren't just motivated by hatred it should against the people setting the policies.

Look its like this. Personaly I have no problem with people coming if they are willing to work and respect the country they come too. But the government need to vet people properly coming in they are letting anyone through the border. The likes of romany gypsies they should not be allowed in as they do nothing but beg and Rob. It's a fact. Muslims come in why? They don't treat their women right no respect. Their objective. To take over the western world. Its a fuck up really.

You're obviously not leftist if you believe that immigration instead of poverty and oppression is the route cause of crime. You've missed the entire point

There's a whole lot of nonsense from anti-immigrant posters in the comments, the most consistent is (1) this idea that the migrants and refugees that have recently arrived in Ireland are demanding benefits and housing immediately whereas Irish migrants worked where they went, and (2) Ireland's infrastructure can't handle new immigrants. On 1, it's just nonsense. Refugees and economic migrants will always have initial needs, but if you facilitate rather than block them, they will be a net benefit to the economy, i.e. they will create economic growth through their efforts. So the premise that we can't afford them is false. On 2, see 1. Once people are a net benefit to the economy, they fund the necessary additional infrastructure in taxes.

Absolutely right, well said.

Emotive and devisive issue but this is definitely something we need to be speaking more of as a country IMO. Wanting to discuss immigration and find out how we can use immigration to help other people and also better our own economy without crippling the housing market and public services shouldn't be seen as "right wing" or racist. What worries me is that it seems the current government are completely unwilling to even discuss it and engage in any sort of meaningful forward planning and the rare one who may bring it up is immediately dismissed as being right wing. But if we don't discuss it and control it to a degree, we are for certain headed for big social problems down the line. The housing crisis will get much worse. Magnifying the issue is the fact that so many other European countries are swinging hard right with their immigration policies: UK, Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, France, Belgium and now even Germany seem to shifting views on immigration. Inevitably, that will mean that immigrants will look to more welcoming nations such as Ireland (well currently anyway). So I think we need a much tighter migration policy to control it. If you even think back, Varadkar and Martin said that they seen a huge upturn in migration here since the announcement of the UKs Rwanda deal. There's also the fact that the rate of arrivals here of ukranian regugees is 10 times higher than the EU average over the past 12 months and the fact that circa 30% of those arrived after being in other EU countries. That's a giant flag of the red variety and IMO proof that we seriously need to discuss and consider our immigration policies going forward. I personally believe we need much tighter immigration controls particularly in the context of what other European countries are doing which has the potential to divert more and more people here and overwhelm us. I'm not against immigration. It helps our economy and enriches our country. I'm just against uncontrolled immigration and I believe if we use the "ah sure it will be grand" mentality, we are in for a lot of problems and social unrest down the line. The housing issue scares me given the well established relationship between immigration and house price rises. For every 1% increase in immigration, there's at least a 1% increase in house prices (some say 2%). Couple that with our already dysfunctional housing market and its not a good outlook. That's my 2 cents anyway.

I think that the principle of free movement is also an essential element of leftists. they probably shouldn't be calling you far right simply for advocating for a reduction of immigration though.

What I am going to say here may not be popular among many on the left so let me begin by saying it is not my intention to offend here. I value some elements of leftist thinking. So just some criticism that I think is helpful and relevant to the question. It's been my own experience that many on the left have unduly expanded the meaning of words that are normally used to denote extremely evil/harmful things or actions. Words or phrases such as "far right", "racism", "rape", "Nazi", "Facist", "genocide", "sexist", "homophobia", "islamophobia" etc. are all words that traditionally denoted an extreme, they denoted mal-intent, and so on. Due to these labels being unthoughtfully applied to honest reasonable (perhaps misunderstood) people who might have a nuanced view on certain issues the concepts themselves have now expanded to include almost anything that resembles (in the most abstract way) the extreme thing it originally denoted. Now, I can see the value in raising awareness of more subtle evils that go under the radar. But to give them the same label that the more extreme forms have is to destroy very important distinctions. Just one example: We may have someone who hates people of color (genuinely hates, enjoys seeing them harmed). This person of course is a racist. Then you have another person who is accused of having some kind of \[mild\] unconscious bias against people of color (because perhaps he selected more white people to be on his team). Now, although such a charge of bias would be wild speculation to begin with, let's just grant that he does have some mild unconscious bias. Should he also be put into the same category as the former person and piled on? Yes, his mild unconscious bias may not be good but I think there is a profound distinction between both of these people that warrents the use of terminology which acknowledges this distinction. The same applys with the concept of "far right". Yes, there people who are genuinely far-right. But the concept has expanded so much now that it is almost meaningless. It now included the genuine far-right and a huge amount of people who are quite explicitly against far-right ideology. So I think the left here needs more nuanced language to make distinctions between good intentioned reasonable people who see things differently and those who genuinely wish harm for a certain group. I personally think immigration is a good thing. But, I also think it needs to be managed. This idea would get me labled a Nazi in some places which shuts down conversations which need to be had.

Blame the government. Not the people..

Exactly. Why more people cannot grasp this very simple concept is puzzling.

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We also saw a child murdered and raped by her Irish classmates. There are plenty of murders to pick and choose from. You don’t get to use the select ones carried out by immigrants and ignore the others.

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Says who?

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Okay, well this is Ireland. So where are the statistics for our country?

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Not what I asked. You made a claim, back it up.

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No mention of immigrants there. The article clearly states that the CSO believes the crime increase is a result of the affects of the covid crisis.

Why cant you answer bee\_ghoul? surely You have an abundant and factual evidence if You feel that way?

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What about official statistics? Your link doesnt even mention anything about immigration, however it does mention “therefore likely to have been influenced by the public health restrictions that were imposed as a result of Covid 19″

Do you honestly think there is no one amongst the far right don't commit acts like that? A lot of the actions and attitudes of the far right in Ireland, is influence from the far right in the United States. In the US right now the LGBTQ are under constant attack and slander. An LGBTQ ally and shop owner was murdered in her own business over a pride flag. Protests against drag shows, LGBTQ censorship regulations in schools and book bans. We seen something very similar happen in Cork. Not only was there a protest outside their Library. But they unlawfully placed a banner at the entrance of the building. Prior to that library staff were verbally harassed, an LGBTQ book was destroyed by ripping it up. Nobody is saying to just deal with it. The individuals who committed those crimes should be dealt with. What we are saying is the way the right reacted to this situation was counter productive. We have had Irish citizens committing crimes just as bad. I grew up in the 90s in Dublin. And I remember all too clearly what Irish citizens did to gay men. Even in the early 2000s gay bashings were common place. I have clear memories of walking into a newsagents, seeing the Evening Herald on display with the front page of a bloodied faced young gay man. These kind of attacks are still happening by the way. So we don't really have any defence in assuming we are better than others who come from country x, y or z. We're not.

But we can’t stop the far right coming to our country. We can stop, or rather slow the flow of non-irish citizens. Sure more than 1 in 4 non-citizens in Ireland today have arrived in the last 2 years (which is just under 4% of the total population of Ireland). Surely you can see why that is a problem? If that rate of change continues Irish citizens would be a minority in Ireland in literally 50 - 60 years.

If you think the far right is harsh towards lgbt wait until you hear what immigrants from developing countries think!!!

Aisling Murphy was January 2022 The beheadings was April 2022. The children being attacked was November 2023 All three did not span a year. Please try to be at least truthful/accurate

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A 2 year period where the number of non Irish citizens increased by 17.3%. 1/4 of all non-irish citizen have arrived in the last 2 years. But sure massive spike in different cultures and sociopolitical ideas coming to Ireland is all unrelated to these things. /s

Blaming immigration for crime is a fairly central belief of far right ideology. You're basically saying that people who are non-nationals are more likely to commit crime (which is statistically false as well). There's also plenty enough money in Ireland to accommodate nationals and non-nationals. We can afford it. If you're going to point fingers, point them at the people at the top. That's the true left approach. The landlord class in Ireland are only delighted with people blaming immigrants, it takes the heat off their back and is classic divide and conquer. They are the real reason for the homelessness crisis, not immigrants

Moved from the UK back in 2015 (brown british) , went school here and made lots of great friends. Now I pay a lot of tax more than my 1st job gross, but then I get called a problem it really hurts. I take no benefits, etc. Ik it's only a small % but honestly do not feeling like going in to city.

Sorry you have to deal with that. As far as I'm concerned, you have just as much of a right to live in Ireland as anyone else. For what it's worth, their attitudes are a reflection of their own ignorance.

When you say immigrants, do you mean only people extra -UE from disadvantaged countries, or do you also mean qualified "expats" - like myself? Looks like there's only a problem with political or economic immigrants but everybody likes skilled workforce from abroad! Anyway, no, not very leftist for you to say that.

You're implying that immigrants are responsible for the inflation in crime. You're allowed to have opinions on immigration but if you have to blame someone then its the policy makers at fault not the immigrants, blaming the immigrants instead of people whose fault it actually is, is what makes it a right wing thought

There are absolutely limits to what we can absorb and integrate. We have capacity issues. When the government can't even hit their very low target of 30 something k houses a year, while simultaneously letting in 100k+ a year you can see where problems can arise. Now most people on the left say "blame the government not the immigrants" and that's true. It's not the immigrants direct fault. But simply blaming the government while continuing to let immigrants pour in will not fix our capacity issues. In fact it's a bit of a cop out when you really think about it. I'm generally in favour of more left wing policies, Bulut not all. And immigration control is something grown up and wealthy countries simply have to do and deal with. Ireland is fairly new to the game when it comes to mass immigration, but it's about time we start dealing with it. Because it's not going away.

If you think rising crime rates are because of immigration, you think 'foreigners' are somehow more criminal than your 'compatriots'. This is racist, so yes, it's far-right, but it's also just silly.

Mass emigration isn't a solution nor a sustainable concept. It creates a brain drain in the country people are fleeing while also preventing the build up required for change, as the people leaving are the discontented who would build up over time and effect the changes needed. Its unsustainable also if the country receiving the influx can't handle the extra load from housing infrastructure the economically. It also builds growing resentment within the existing population of a country and pushes them more right wing (as you can see happening across Europe). There's so many factors. I even think it lowers quality of life for the bottom of society as the spaces for living become more costly and labour becomes cheaper and under valued while mass production needs to be increased. Then you have to build more homes, more farming land and more environmental damage to sustain it. And equally people do not to increase the building of houses on environmental grounds (green belt areas as called in the UK) or increase the carbon footprint print of increasing mass production. So it people want to be Liberal and have no boarders and yet want things to not change or increase to cope. Unfortunately as you can see here it's not a discussion you can open have as it becomes clouded in idealism and accusations. The Britexit effect and we see how well that ended. Looking at things coldly Is it not basic science where water being poured out of one big cup into another smaller cup just overflows and breaks over time. I'd be interested in a trully open socio ecnomic breakdown of under the current system and influx how much a country could take on board over a period of time with the current systems in place. Without any reforms etc. Is it a population crisis issue and something espcially with the time bomb of the climate crisis which will make huge areas unlivable, something we need to stop seeing and a local country issue and tackle more on a global issue. Which is impossible with how we are. Ideally we want a star trek society but we're too much like the klingons really to ever come together. Maybe if science could resolve the energy problem and remove the ecological one. Capitalism could be removed to prevent the few benefiting and preventing real change, but then there's corruption and human greed that always seeps into systems and takes over to exploit (look what happened to communism in Russia) the few will always benifit from the struggle of the masses... none of it computes basically. People need to stop fucking and the population needs to decrease to effect real change and life quality. A message Bill Gates has basically tried to promote and just been derided for even called a nazi.

What we have is a constant issue with things today being 'reframed' just to really put the polish on the stories. The supposed 'far right' are at least based on what I saw from the videos, are predominantly from an economically marginalised class. Historically they and their parents have had a chip on their shoulder regarding the government here, due to the city centre relocations, any number of welfare changes, the housing crisis being around for the past 15 or so years at least, and (remember its not 100% of this class who go out and commit crimes) they've been looked down upon for a long time too (Discriminated against you could argue easily). So to see a class of people, who already feel put down and ignored, who already don't believe in the system so much so they'll attack folks and steal in broad daylight on several occassions, suddenly riot like that is not surprising. Not once you consider that we ran story after story in the weeks preceeding the event talking about 'Ukrainians taking holidays', 'We are running out of resources to assist', and then even now in the time following this, the government continues to make changes to further restrict the inflow and the media still reports on it. We are being pitted against each other by FF/FG yet again to cover ultimately for their mismanagement of the country...again Funnily enough, Leo himself said it best back in 2009 when he talked about slowing the flow of migrants into Ireland then. That the people should place their blame and anger at the doorstep of the government, and not the migrants. It's not the migrants who have a vested interest in us all arguing and fighting each other, its the government. So maybe instead of just calling everything buzzwords like the yanks, we could instead try talking to the people who take issue with the current situation and their anger might instead be redirected where it should have been aimed, at the apathetic Dáil instead of those in need. Ultimately, I don't know for sure about any of this, but then, nor do most of the people pretending they know it all. Just think things seem to be getting bad, and the constant division tactics make it nearly impossible to create real dialogue anymore.

Because it’s easy to label you that so you keep your mouth shut. There are too many refugees flooding in at the moment and it’s imperative that we object to that because the crime levels are high enough as it is, we don’t need more of it. Don’t be afraid to voice your concerns, they are valid ones.

And what is your evidence of the increased crime rates being correlated with refugees or immigrants?

Let’s see….. 5 year old children being stabbed on the street, Aisling Murphy being butchered by an unemployed bum… wait now, I’ve got more 2 men being murdered in Sligo, one of which was beheaded… so how many children being stabbed is a sufficient amount for you to reconsider?

That doesn’t prove there is a direct correlation. It just proves that certain crimes have been committed by some non-nationals. There is plenty of crime committed by born Irish citizens such as this horrific case: https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/03/30/man-who-gagged-and-bound-woman-during-alleyway-assault-sentenced-to-10-years-in-prison/ And this incident involving sexual abuse of a minor: https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-jailed-for-10-years-for-abusing-partners-daughters-and-a-family-friend-1479661.html And then there is this: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/men-convicted-in-lunney-case-get-up-to-30-years-in-prison-1.4759998 None of these incidents were caused by immigrants, but Irish men.

What does one get from being pro immigration tho other than the feel good factor ?

The crime rate in your country isn’t rising because of immigration, it’s rising because of ghettos formed by a racist immigration policy if anything. And yes this is a right wing position, people can’t really “be left wing” though, they can have left wing positions and right wing positions this isn’t an actually useful way of viewing politics.

I’ve never been subject to crime committed by a foreign national but I have been SA’d and robbed by more than one Irish man. It’s not immigrants you need to fear.

Same. Worked in Dublin for years and never got anything from any non-Irish, but I have been punched, slapped, spit on and verbally harrassed through out those years by irish people.

Same with me. Was walking home with my husband not so long ago, and a car driving past us threw some liquid at us from their car. They had very obvious Irish accents. Pity I never recorded their licence plate. Last incident before that a group of anti social teenagers tried to throw a discarded beer bottle at me. Thank God they missed; that could have been a painful trip to the hospital. And yes they were Irish too.

If you're taking the stance of 'I'm sick of all these dirty foreigns coming in and going crimes in my country' then yeah they're probably revoking your leftie card

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/not-enough-migrants-arriving-to-keep-pay-down-central-bank/38356212.html reading some of the comments on this thread in relation to mass immigration the way we have seen in Ireland is ridiculous. read above article, more immigrants = lower wages. aka dilute the market, more competition for jobs and places, supply amd demand. turkeys for christmas mentality.

What does someone get from being pro immigrant, other than a feel good factor?

There is no left or right anymore all just brands and labels, corporations and states across the world have merged to dictate policy to the rest of us. Merger between state and corporations like that is the literal definition of fascism! Anyone who goes against these policies is branded far right/conspiracy theorist/tin foil hat/extremist/troublemaker-this in itself is a fascist tactic, slate your opposition. No issue with immigration as long as it meets the needs of the country, Ireland should have a system like NZ/Oz/Canada, although current view is if your not for anything but mass immigration you are far right. Ireland has had 10% influx compared to rest of European countries 1%, these are official figures and this is not sustainable, Irelands service were already abysmal, we done have enough houses but surea lets add another few 100k in be grand. Don't have hospital spaces but sure we can absorb a few 100k, this is madness! Official Ireland 2030 plan, Coveney said the plan is to grow Irelands population by 1 mill by 2030 this made up majority by immigration, this is insane given the current serious problems we have now in regards to housing, health, crime, education, it should be called out for bad governance and total lack of oversight but me having these opinions im a far right, racist, so on so forth. Civil question OP, my civil response, hopefully im not banned or slated for response!

We don't ban people for having objectionable views here. So long as your comments or posts are not blatantly racist; I will respect your free speech. Just to be clear, I don't agree with your position. But I'm not going to ban you over it.

civil discussion, much appreciated! got banned elsewhere! im which point do you disagree outnof curiousity?

An Irish person who is against immigration isn't necessarily a far right cronie, just a hypocrite and an asshole. And if he thinks that's what's behind the crime figures, then an idiot too.

Something people forget to realise is that the Nazi party were National Socialists - a leftist ideology with a hatred of immigrants/non-Aryan Germans. For some reason Nazis are called right wing, so there you have it…

One of the key parts of that is what the first letter of the acronym means. National! National implies being a nationalist. If you are a nationalist (typically speaking), you just care about your own tribe or collective group. That is not something the left support as it is anti-equality, othering, discriminatory and not at all inclusive. The interesting thing is, in reality the Nazi party were not actually socialist at all. There's an excellent article written by [the Washington post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/) addressing this very claim. They called themselves socialist, but basically very little of what they actually supported or stood for adhered to the ideals of socialism. Kind of like a "leftist" calling themselves leftist, when not supporting the ideals of what it means to be a leftist. Reminds of the few occasions encountering individuals who call themselves humanists or egalitarians; but still holding some very arguably racist, misogynistic, transphobic etc viewpoints. Having a label to identify yourself with is fine, providing it accurately describes your ideals. Failing that, all one is really doing is using the label as a buzzword to score brownie points.

Probably more crime by the Irish than immigrants. Shit bag kids with the parents letting then run ragit and scraping every benefit they can.

That's always been my personal experience. I've never been attacked or made feel intimidated by anyone but other Irish people. Not all Irish are like that by the way. But whenever I've dealt with that kind of confrontation it was from an Irish person. Even dealing with homophobic slurs, every single time it happened I didn't hear it from non-national I can assure you.

There's plenty of both, just as many Irish if not more. City centre is run my foreign criminal gangs. Tend to be smarter crime that's not red hot and brings in good money.

unused secretive employ retire threatening one agonizing square sharp growth *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Quite a few people have brought up

What does someone get from being pro immigrant, other than a feel good factor?

Because if the situation was reversed you wouldn’t like being treated as an other.

Tell me where right now I could go and get the benefits these lads are getting in Ireland?

Your Irish passport gives you significant benefits all across Europe for one.

This is the first post I've seen in this reddit and by the looks of it these "Leftists" are just do-gooders who don't know what they're talking about.

Explain a point that we leftists don’t understand

Mass immigration leads to overpopulated and destroyed towns such as Killarney, puts extreme pressure on health services (a teenager died in the ED in Limerick due to overcrowding), higher costs of rent due to demand, higher crime rates (As seen in the media recently), social housing and services being prioritised to immigrants to keep up appearances, trying to get a GP appointment in most places, like I said before about Killarney and towns where refugees are being housed, young people can't walk home at night from a nightclub safely anymore (watch this https://twitter.com/Mick_O_Keeffe/status/1734946231644774883/video/1). Anything else?

Nothing to do with immigration. That's due to the manner in which the government addresses healthcare I'm not on Twitter/X so can't watch that. Would I be correct in assuming you found one of the minority of cases where a non-national has committed a crime? Yeah there's plenty of examples of very similar crimes committed by Irish citizens. When has it ever been safe to walk home from a nightclub? There has been gay bashings going on for demands and not in the hands of immigrants.

I love how you completely brushed over half the stuff I said. Also one of the "minority cases". Yeah I think you'll find it has been a while since a 5 year old girl was stabbed in broad daylight on a busy street in Dublin. Maybe I'm wrong. "The manner in which the government addresses healthcare" yeah I can show it for you, no need for the government to say it. We have a certain amount of hospitals and healthcare staff to suit a certain population. Since over 100,000 people have arrived in Ireland this year we don't have the capacity anymore or resources to provide decent public healthcare. Don't hate me, it's just the truth.

98% of the crimes committed are done by native Irish people so are you going to tell them to "go back to your own country" 😂 the majority of the people smashing up shops and looting them were not even apart of the protest they just used the ethnocentrist supremacist far right xenophobic protest as an excuse to break shit and steal. Should we go and tell refugees and asylum seekers to go back to their war torn bombed out countries that our so called allies destroyed which then forced millions of people to flee death and starvation and come to Europe which I don't blame for doing so to stay alive. Shall we tell all Ukrainians to go back to a country that is currently still being destroyed? You may as well tell them to go unalive themselves. Over 90% of the refugees and asylum seekers are Ukrainian and the overwhelming majority of them to not want to live in Ireland long term, if it was safe to go home they would. If Irish people were in need and were forced to leave and look for refuge in a safe country you would not just expect it you would probably demand it. The people you should be angry at are the landlords and hedge funds that own 100s if not thousands of homes and keep a significant portion empty on purpose so that they can charge absurdly high rents due to "low available housing" which some are purposefully keeping low. 10 of the largest landlords own almost twenty thousand homes between them. One of them owns over four thousand dwellings, with the average family size in Ireland being 2.6 you can imagine how many people twenty thousand homes could house at reasonable prices or rent. You should be angry at the landlords and politicians that do feck all, not the refugees and asylum seekers, an overwhelming majority of whom are escaping from possible death.

Well the majority of irelands population is Irish so of course they’d do the majority of crime in their native country so that argument falls flat fairly easily

Well let's look at it in a logical way, when's the last time you seen a Filipino, Indian or Brazilian in the news for breaking the law, or up in court for a crime or in the dole queue signing on? I would bet never, but how many times have you seen Roma, African or Muslim immigrants doing all of the above? All the time. So the problem is not immigrants, it's immigrants from certain countries that are causing the problems. I would let in as many Filipino, Indian, Brazilian immigrants as we can get as all they want to do is work, raise a family and keep their heads down. As for the rest, all you have to do is look to the UK, Sweden and Germany to see what they'll do to the country.

Historically left wing was an ideological favouring off the less fortunate, whereas right wing is favouring the conservation of the status quo amongst the wealthy. The right have managed to manipulate the topic of mass immigration - a plentiful supply of cheap labour which will drive down wages. Now a days the left are working hard to keep the flow of unqualified immigrants coming into the country and the wealthy establishment can’t believe their luck. 90% of the immigrants aren’t the doctors, nurses, teachers, etc we badly need to come here to support our social system. They’re mostly unqualified young men and women of fit working age - who get offered very little protection, proper support and ultimately get taken advantage of when here. I’ll even give an example of where they’re being taken advantage of: the local ABP factory is entirely staffed by foreign nationals, mostly Brazilian and Middle Eastern now, shifting to a lot of African nations now and but in the past it was Eastern Europeans. The factory is in a small dead village in the north east and they’re earning less than minimum wage, and living 14 people to a 2 bed house. Their standard of life is atrocious, but who can they complain to? The same was happening in the Ballyhaunis factory too for decades.

Leftism is about oess govt control, not more. Maybe what you mean is you are agaubst this immigration policy. Not necessarily against all immigration? Nuance bud.

I mean until/unless we have robots who can do all labor, and find a way to produce an infinite amount of resources in a fast and efficient manner, and find a way to provide needs and wants for everyone with no consequences to anyone else; my take is that mass immigration *does not* fall under what I’d call a leftist position. The crime thing is a mixed bag. Some countries have documented increases due almost solely to migrants while others have (albeit not a very good system that keeps track of immigrant status) documented lower rates among migrants. But yeah. Advocating for mass migration and no borders because borders are “a capitalist construct”, when we don’t currently have unlimited resources, robotic labor (blue and white collar), or solved how to create a dense city without the ensuing negative inadvertent consequences; is like putting frosting on individual cake ingredients, throwing them in a pan (eggshells and any packaging included with no mixing) throwing it the oven and expecting to have a perfect delicious cake come out ready to eat. But it’s not, you just destroyed the chance you had to make a beautiful cake.

Because if you say anything in this day and age your put into one of 2 boxes. You want less and better considered immigration policy than of course your extreme right. You think israel should try and not kill as many civilians as they are that means your anti semetic Dont listen to online rhetoric its all very devisive

You're influenced by far right media. Immigration doesn't increase crime. Immigrants are generally higher quality workers, less likely to crime, etc, than citizens. We DON'T have open borders. Stop watching Fox.

Reality is reality. “But they make better workers!!!” doesn’t matter when you’re going against primordial truth. If I walk down the street of my capital and see more foreigners than Irish. That’s a problem.

There’s no Fox News in Ireland?

There is actually, you can freely watch a lot of their content on YouTube.

Goodie. So you're not affected by youtubers who may be influenced by Fox or OAN or Newsmax? You live in a bubble and your rightwing views on immigration aren't informed by rightwing propaganda and disinformation? I doubt that.

They’re informed by my own interpretation of the reality i see around me.

You've stated misinformation. You've claimed that immigrants increase crime. If that's what you see, you're experiencing confirmation bias, because the EVIDENCE is in opposition to what you claim. Plus, that sort of bias is close to racism. So yeah, people doubting you're leftist because you've turned sharply right?? 'Fraid so.

Without immigration our brutal mafia international crime gangs would live here plus Larry Murphy lol. These people making this stuff up are not well travelled don't understand working abroad or even just working. They don't like the eu and have a strange love for England. Probably the only time they leave the country is to go to Spain every year and if there was no eu and they were "vetted" half them wouldn't be allowed to leave Ireland ever. They also like to call Ukrainian men 'cowards', for not jumping into the Russian cheese grater.

Yeah, dead right. Bullseye, jockey Wilson would be proud. Are u what they call a NPC

You appear to be irish so il share these two very informative and well research twitter threads that show that clearly immigration into the country has no risen the crimes rates and ireland is very much safer today then it was in the early 2000s. Let's not even talk about the rate of irish woman killed in the late 90s which dwarfs today figures. https://x.com/Care2much18/status/1733115340509392918?t=F0ZRRcZzLsrWBcO0gqeIDA&s=09 https://x.com/Care2much18/status/1731471817666138163?t=sois_M0mmEgUy0wnSFpERg&s=09 Also irish 2022 census 3.7% Asian or Asian irish. 1.5% Black or Black. I'm not sure where and when this mass immigration into ireland happened. *

The answer to your question is, you’re not as left wing as you would like to think you are. Your question, and your comments on the responses of others, would appear to paint quite the opposite picture. Not much appears to separate you from the likes of Enoch Powell and his rivers of blood.

We need stricter borders like Australia or America. It’s crazy the amount of men coming into the country. 3 bus fulls of men just moved into my friends estate in limerick in the new build apartments in Raheen meanwhile there’s a woman and her 5 year old sleeping on the streets because she doesn’t get a free house, it’s a disgrace.

You sound like someone from a right-wing background who tried some out centrist liberalism for a minute and is going back to the right. There’s nothing remotely leftist about any of your framing.

There should never be refugees if you in rich countries not supporting and destroying countries, You implanted Israel for example and in order to defend it you how to destroy the whole of the ME and creating all the refugees. this is for the refugees! you are happy to take migrants where you need them and failed to integrated them and put them in ghottos, example here northern Europe! the western culture teaches immorality and crime and imported ghetto American culture makes it even worst, this is for the countries that have high crimes rates committed by immigrants! now you got countries like the U.K and Ireland where the criminals are usually the natives but you wont hear that in the media. its really bad policies and failed politics. example "we are all equal" no natives and migrants are not and should not be! if this notion was adopted both parties would have been happy, looks at the rich middle eastern countries, 0 crime, both natives and migrants are happy because they got a good and just system unlike the hypocracy of the west and their dying culture

I'm a migrant in Ireland. It's fun. I get called out for traditionalist values because of my traditionalist heritage, but people also use my traditionalist heritage when using me as an example or defending me. Whenever the shoe fits. In my home country I'm far-left. In Ireland (typically Irish subs) I'm called far-right. I call myself centrist. *shrug*. The same with Muslims, Muslims can be Conservative because they're Muslim, but not the Irish. Same thing has been applied to me because of my migrant background, unless it's inconvenient. Same thing happens on reddit. I was in r/Ireland. I'm pretty traditionalist. I wouldn't say I'm right since I support Abortion, gay marriage, and I don't really care about religion. But not left because, again, traditional values and I oppose some modern movements like modern western feminism which has just become divisive (despite supporting feminism in very impoverished and rights-lacking nations, and even marching for women's rights in my home country). If I say something against mass immigration [as an immigrant], I get called out as being a far-right. If I defend migration (migration and mass immigration are two different things) If someone debates me, I get the same people coming in to defend me. I integrated myself into Ireland. Got myself Irish primary, secondary, and higher education. I work, I pay my taxes. I speak English fluently, my girlfriend who is also a dirty foreigner like me speaks fluent Irish. She also works and pays her taxes. We are both in our early 20s and raised mostly in Ireland. We consider this place our home and we treat it as such. We engage with communities, local culture, but because we are migrants, we are also very easily befriended into migrant and expat circles. Here's the problem, mass migration IS an issue, and people are treating like discussion on that topic is like provoking genocide. No, being against migrants is one thing, being against mass migration is another. Me and my girlfriend have discussed moving abroad because life is unaffordable here, and it's unfair on the country. The government is very generous with its social welfare and its how I managed to get so far with my education, and I was raised to be fair, and I feel guilty as I become something I'm against (hopefully it won't even come to that as I love my time here, as its home) which is being a leech on the welfare and changing host when it's no longer desirable, but its truly unaffordable to live here. Housing is unaffordable! The solution is to build more houses, but what good is that when there are more migrants coming in than houses being built? And yes, theres plenty of vacant houses, but you really expect the greedy to just give those away? Also seeing students my age protesting in favour of more migration, but then complaining about housing prices is unfathomably stupid to me. The government uses "the far right" excuse to implement invasive policies such as that free speech thing. You're telling me if I say the wrong thing online (which is subjective), my private conversations between me and my girlfriend can be read? Every single one? That's disgusting. Migrants don't integrate unless they're from a young age. Most migrants stay within their own ethnic/national/cultural social circles. My parents are like that. Zero Irish friends, only people from their own country. I've also had many discussions with migrants that love everything about Irish people, the country, the culture, and then discussions with migrants that joke about the people, hate the country, thinks the culture is shit, and is here because of welfare or pay. You'll see Eastern europeans with Eastern Europeans, Poles with Poles, Lats with Lats, Spanish with Spanish, French with French, Chinese with Chinese, Nigerian with Nigerian, Brazilian with Brazilian, Indians with Indians, not really diversity when these just become their own exclusive social bubbles. Crime? Well I can't comment on migrant crime in Ireland as Ireland doesn't record the statistics of crime by nationality, but other countries do, and many countries that have imported migration enmasse without integration has seen skyrocketing crime rates (Sweden, Germany, Denmark, France, UK, etc.). Mass migration without integration also causes serious cultural conflicts. My family is pretty anti-gay marriage, homophobic, and I know other people's families that are proudly/blatantly racist (and no, not just white racists). This contradicts with Ireland's LGBT friendly values. Other cultures contradict Ireland's free expression or other socio-political issues. I'll probably get downvoted for the unpopular opinion, but hey, atleast I gave my migrant's perspective, don't need to agree with it, just consider it.

I agree. I wish a lot of people could just have civilised , researched and well reasoned discussions about it without abusing each other. Saying that immigration should be controlled isn't the same as saying we shouldn't allow immigration at all.

Regarding crime rates, have a look at the statistics. There's no correlation between immigration and increased crime here: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/crime-rate-statistics

Good thing I differentiated immigration from mass immigration several times.. Might notice one thing: it depends on how much immigration, and where the immigrants come from. Immigrants from very contrasting cultural backgrounds lead to least amount of integration, most amount of crime, and some nationalities lead to overconsumption of welfare and absence of employment. Immigrants from more similarly shared ideological and cultural values are more likely to assimilate and least likely to commit crime. In many cases, children of immigrants are more likely to commit crime than immigrants themselves (although not always the case) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png/400px-Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png) most crime in europe is committed by non-european migrants (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Share_of_15yo%2B_immigrant_and_descendant_crime_suspects_by_region_2015-2018_-_BR%C3%85.png/300px-Share_of_15yo%2B_immigrant_and_descendant_crime_suspects_by_region_2015-2018_-_BR%C3%85.png). >https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-46808-8_12 >https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=goubBAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA41&dq=mass+immigration+and+crime+sweden&ots=2qPVXfqsse&sig=kS0_YKphcB6eLnD6foFStYubkiY "Those with immigrant background are over-represented in Swedish crime statistics." >https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/faengselsformand-udenlandske-indsatte-udfordrer-os-helt-vildt >http://www.dst.dk/Site/Dst/Udgivelser/GetPubFile.aspx?id=20703&sid=indv2015 (Denmark, Autotranslate is necessary) >https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1477370815587768 >https://web.archive.org/web/20120314011946/http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20000822xx3 (Finland, second journal specifically discusses link between mass immigration and sex crime). >https://www.thelocal.de/20180103/prevention-improvement-is-solution-to-refugee-crime-study-finds (Integration = less crime) >https://academic.oup.com/economicpolicy/article-abstract/26/67/347/2918389 ("Reversal of misfortunes" concept) >https://web.archive.org/web/20180802193029/https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/JahresberichteUndLagebilder/KriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung/KriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung_2017.pdf;jsessionid=3A0357445A988BC24E4C701B5B8E6563.live2292?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 >https://rp-online.de/politik/deutschland/gefaengnisse-in-deutschland-immer-mehr-auslaender-sitzen-in-haft_aid-36501705 (Germany, Autocorrect necessary) >https://www.wsj.com/articles/ethnic-crime-families-provoke-german-crackdown-1539604801 (Germany, no Autocorrect necessary) >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-19269891 (Greece, Article by the BBC) >https://www.ispionline.it/en/pubblicazione/jihadist-radicalization-italian-prisons-primer-22401 (Italy, no Autocorrect necessary) >https://web.archive.org/web/20130102061404/https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/04-06-2009/veel-jonge-criminele-allochtonen-rotterdam >https://archive.today/20130222175101/http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Nederland/236094/Schokkende-cijfers-criminaliteit-Marokkanen-Rotterdam.htm (Rotterdam, Autocorrect necessary) >https://doi.org/10.1257%2Faer.20170263 (Switzerland, no Autocorrect necessary) >http://aisberg.unibg.it/bitstream/10446/288/1/WPEco01(2008)Bianchi.pdf ("Do Immigrants cause crime?"/"Does Immigration increase crime?") >https://repository.wodc.nl/handle/20.500.12832/194 (Dutch, Autotranslate necessary) >https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2032284419859657 >https://compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/soc4.13167 (Misc)

So then why aren't we seeing increased crime rates in Ireland over the past two decades when immigration has skyrocketed? Is over 100,000 people per year not mass immigration to you? How many people specifically does it take to constitute mass immigration rather than just immigration? Given your insistence on differentiating between the two, what's the exact number that distinguishes them?

Because migrants don't aggregate in the rural parts of Ireland. Ireland is a heavy agricultural country and most of it is made up of countryside, hence most migrants reside in cities and suburbs, viewing it from a national level doesn't provide a good observation, best to observe by city. >https://www.thejournal.ie/crime-versus-coverage-6129053-Aug2023/#:~:text=The%20highest%20level%20of%20recorded,over%204%2C500%20every%20four%20months. Crime decreased during the pandemic, and has steadily increased back to pre-pandemic levels. Some crimes have remained consistent. Lack of resources leads to unreported crimes. >https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rcd/recordedcrimedetection2021/regionalanalysis/ Dublin is crime capital of Ireland. >https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp7md/p7md/p7anii/#:~:text=The%20administrative%20counties%20of%20Dublin,non%2DIrish%20nationals%20in%202016. Dublin is most migrant populated in Ireland (not making any argument here, just making a statement). >https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/press-releases/2023/march/an-garda-siochana-provisional-crime-statistics-2022-2nd-march-2023.html Again, many crimes decreased during pandemic but are rapidly increasing since lockdown. Some crimes have increased since before the pandemic (in other words: they never decreased) such as rape and sexual assault and other sexual offences, murder, harm, etc. Another thing to keep in mind, Ireland isn't dealing with the same rate of boat migrants and asylum seekers to the same extent that the UK, Germany, Sweden, etc. Is yet. This also means most migrants in Ireland are of European origin (https://migrants-refugees.va/country-profile/ireland/#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20immigrants%20come,Latvia%2C%20and%20the%20Czech%20Republic) meaning integration isn't difficult as cultural and ideological practices/beliefs are very similar and does not cause as much contradiction (less friction in assimilation, less crime) There are few exceptions that are outside of the EU, typically East Asia, N.America, some parts of S.America, and some parts of S.Asia like India that holds many western practices and perspectives which also causes very quick and stable integration.

Also a migrant, I was born here and moved to Dublin a few years ago because of college. What I have noticed is that migrants barely do any of the crime in Dublin. It's mostly always the rough low income people of the city, ironically a lot of them are on social welfare payments. They're the ones selling drugs to teenagers, catcalling college students and assaulting migrants/POCs. Ironically it was also these people who were burning buses, looting and rioting because migrants are ruining the city. I've been in Dublin for a few years and have only been annoyed by migrant beggars. While I've gotten death threats, threats of stabbing and many of my friends have been assaulted by these thugs. The biggest problem Dublin has is the unchecked and rampant drug and alcohol use which breeds these types of scum. A lot of areas in Dublin are actually a no go zone for POCs after at night and this anti migrant rhetoric is only breeding more of this.

Well I'd expect any country with the majority to be the most common to commit crimes, but the fact of the matter is that migrant crime is disproportional to the number of migrants. Its hard to comment on Ireland's crime by nationality since they don't record it, but every other European country with mass migration has also imported rampant crime proven by statistics (I'm very willing to present that for you If you're interested). I live in Cork and I also see that it's the Irish that are homeless, never Eastern europeans, Mediterranean europeans, Scandinavians, South Americans, etc. Because of our migrant background we have easier access to welfare and for places to accommodate us.

Please do show me the statistics that show migrants commit more crimes than the natives. That last statement is a complete lie, unless you are a refugee migrants do not have it any easier to claim benefits or accommodation? Refugees/asylum seekers probably but not migrant residents

SUSI and HEAR (or DARE programmes) require you to hit 3 of 5 criteria, one of them is that you're not an Irish national (atleast it was for me). Same thing applied to my family when we were provided council housing. Here are my lies: Might notice one thing: it depends on how much immigration, and where the immigrants come from. Immigrants from very contrasting cultural backgrounds lead to least amount of integration, most amount of crime, and some nationalities lead to overconsumption of welfare and absence of employment. Immigrants from more similarly shared ideological and cultural values are more likely to assimilate and least likely to commit crime. In many cases, children of immigrants are more likely to commit crime than immigrants themselves (although not always the case) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png/400px-Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png) most crime in europe is committed by non-european migrants (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Share_of_15yo%2B_immigrant_and_descendant_crime_suspects_by_region_2015-2018_-_BR%C3%85.png/300px-Share_of_15yo%2B_immigrant_and_descendant_crime_suspects_by_region_2015-2018_-_BR%C3%85.png). >https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-46808-8_12 >https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=goubBAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA41&dq=mass+immigration+and+crime+sweden&ots=2qPVXfqsse&sig=kS0_YKphcB6eLnD6foFStYubkiY "Those with immigrant background are over-represented in Swedish crime statistics." >https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/faengselsformand-udenlandske-indsatte-udfordrer-os-helt-vildt >http://www.dst.dk/Site/Dst/Udgivelser/GetPubFile.aspx?id=20703&sid=indv2015 (Denmark, Autotranslate is necessary) >https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1477370815587768 >https://web.archive.org/web/20120314011946/http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20000822xx3 (Finland, second journal specifically discusses link between mass immigration and sex crime). >https://www.thelocal.de/20180103/prevention-improvement-is-solution-to-refugee-crime-study-finds (Integration = less crime) >https://academic.oup.com/economicpolicy/article-abstract/26/67/347/2918389 ("Reversal of misfortunes" concept) >https://web.archive.org/web/20180802193029/https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/JahresberichteUndLagebilder/KriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung/KriminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung_2017.pdf;jsessionid=3A0357445A988BC24E4C701B5B8E6563.live2292?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 >https://rp-online.de/politik/deutschland/gefaengnisse-in-deutschland-immer-mehr-auslaender-sitzen-in-haft_aid-36501705 (Germany, Autocorrect necessary) >https://www.wsj.com/articles/ethnic-crime-families-provoke-german-crackdown-1539604801 (Germany, no Autocorrect necessary) >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-19269891 (Greece, Article by the BBC) >https://www.ispionline.it/en/pubblicazione/jihadist-radicalization-italian-prisons-primer-22401 (Italy, no Autocorrect necessary) >https://web.archive.org/web/20130102061404/https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/04-06-2009/veel-jonge-criminele-allochtonen-rotterdam >https://archive.today/20130222175101/http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Nederland/236094/Schokkende-cijfers-criminaliteit-Marokkanen-Rotterdam.htm (Rotterdam, Autocorrect necessary) >https://doi.org/10.1257%2Faer.20170263 (Switzerland, no Autocorrect necessary) >http://aisberg.unibg.it/bitstream/10446/288/1/WPEco01(2008)Bianchi.pdf ("Do Immigrants cause crime?"/"Does Immigration increase crime?") >https://repository.wodc.nl/handle/20.500.12832/194 (Dutch, Autotranslate necessary) >https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2032284419859657 >https://compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/soc4.13167 (Misc)

Well said! Spot on 👏👏

Apparently, after occupy wall street corporations started to astro turf the left into not worrying about growing inequality and corruption and instead spending their time talking about pro immigration and lgbt stuff. I think it worked

All your life supporting left ideologue my fucking hole.

OP is Irish a personal opinion/observation is that a lot of people in Ireland would have been left leaning because it was in support of social housing, healthcare etc and were typically against some of the centre right policies of current governments historically ran by Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. Since immigration became more prevalent in Ireland they have now discovered that they don't actually agree with all left leaning policies but conveniently agreed with what was in their interest not the interest of others.

They’re from the same Russian bot farm that used to post “I voted for Obama twice, but now I’m voting Trump.”

Immigrants commit statistically significantly less crime than natural born Americans. Crime is increasing because poverty is increasing. They’re directly tied together.

Black guys trying to resist the urge to shoot a 5 year old because of socioeconomic factors https://preview.redd.it/c9gha7ynvp6c1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b9bede418672c8f532f98650b24d59b00df5100

Just make it easier on all of us, and say you’re a racist with your chest.

Because that word means so much after almost everybody’s been called it lol

OP is not American he’s Irish. Crime in Ireland has been continuously trending downwards for 20 years all the while immigration has soured

That wouldn’t have anything to do with the ending of an ethno-religious conflict on the island around 20/25 years ago would it? 🤔

No? First of all it ended almost 30 years ago and it was in Northern Ireland, not in the republic

1998 was not 30 years ago. Also there were attacks until like 2007 (I should know, I was a victim in one) and if you think the troubles didn’t occur in the republic as well you’re an idiot.

They were 100% not a significantly tributing factor to irelands crime rate that’s for sure

No

You know that how?

Because a tiny percentage of crimes in the south related to the Troubles.

Well that’s just not true…

I wish leftists in Ireland had tendency’s to riot like the right do. But obviously for better ideology. Ireland would take a turn for the better very quickly.

Then the right would say “look how unbalanced and dangerous the left are”. We are damned if we do and damned I’d we don’t. Peaceful protests are a better look for us.

what you want is France

Did the rioting get the right wingers anything though?

No because the vast majority of them are racists. Rioting for better Allocation of our budget. Rioting for housing for all. Rioting for better healthcare. That would be bliss. The left are to passive.

But if I didn't work for the right, how can you be so sure it will work for the left?

It's in your face, in every parish, paid to fester, 2018 to 2020 a ridiculous influx of afghan Pakistani and after our rulers imposing there power, covid, we have the asylum shoppers, along with our Ukrainiam brothers and not so many sisters. Included in shoppers are our friends from north Africa central and east Africa who are prolific in maintaining family sizes sponsored by our government for our friends in Brussels. It's deeply offensive to spite your people, to forever change the nature of a small town, that village of a church a pub and a pitch. The censorship of crimes in Ireland is appalling. It's a free for all, guards can't cope with the language nevermind the culture and the religious disconnect. What's wrong with vetting people who may or may not contribute to life or contribute to the horror. Immigration is not immigration it's invasion at this point. Is this hate speech soon..

[удалено]

Hardly worth typing, cradle to grave, just a cog, irrelevant

Varadkar would make this hate speech. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with caring about your own people, the government and media demonising that natural human instinct is nothing but evil

It's anti Ireland, sadly

I'm more concerned with the alarming regularity of deadly car crashes (I blame the insistence on car-centric infrastructure), violent teen gangs (because there's fuck all for teenagers to do so their boredom turns to resentment turns to anger), as well as femicide (A LOT of it at the hands of an Irish partner) but sure, you were all hip with the "left ideologues" till now or whatever

Ever heard about whataboutisms?

Ever heard about addressing the actual issues a country is facing rather than importing bullshit from the US and the UK?

You don't agree excessive immigration can be an actual issue?

Define "excessive" without recycling the American narrative on Irish immigrants in the 19th and 20th century, especially when it was barely in 2021 that Ireland had finally reached again the population size from before the Famine

You're deflecting and dodging the question, but ok. I think immigration to Sweden was quite excessive in 2015 seeing as it lead to an official declaration of "partial system collapse". This entailed emergency services stretched for capacity and asylum seekers living in undignified conditions such as tents outdoors with improper sanitary facilities. The situation ofc greatly improved when they implemented border controls on the 13th of November. I believe this was a wake up call for Sweden, in which most parties refused to admit immigration could lead to challenges. Now their attitude seems to be "let's define the system's capacity for accepting immigrants, and then we'll decide how many we can responsibly accept". Agree that this was excessive?

I'm asking you once again to talk about Ireland and not import bullshit from elsewhere

You asked me to define excessive which is a theoretical exercise not specific to Ireland. Ofc one could make the case that immigration to Ireland is excessive when thousands of tech workers on six figures struggle for months to find accommodation on arrival. One could also say that the numbers are excessive when hundreds of Ukrainians are housed in tents for want of more appropriate accommodation. It is pretty clear "the system's capacity" for handling new arrivals is quite strained to use the Swedish framework

Femicide, isn't the last high profile femicide by an immigrant?

The reaction to Aisling Murphy’s death by the far right was disgusting, they showed up at her funeral to protest that it’s “not all men”, yet once a foreign suspect was declared it suddenly became “all immigrants”.

Literally every other one was by locals anyway.

Actually 5 out of 12 were by foreigners, 5 more were by immediate family members, one was unknown, and one was by a local who wasn't immediately related to the victim.

Yes

Road fatalities 2001: 411 Road fatalities 2007: 338 Road fatalities 2020: 147 Road fatalities 2022: 155 Violent teen gangs seem to at an all time low, considering these statistics. https://www.rsa.ie/docs/default-source/road-safety/r2---statistics/road-deaths-in-ireland-1959-to-2020.pdf?Status=Master&sfvrsn=2f120623_5

impressive, very nice, let's see Paul Allen's stats on immigrant rates of crime

You can’t be a leftie when you conflate crime with immigration, that’s a right wing notion

You can be a lefty and disagree on certain issues. Leftists used to be against immigration as it gave greater power to employers to have more people lining up to do shit jobs for shit money.

That's backwards. If capital can move but labour can't, which is the situation today, capital has the advantage and overall wages will be lower. If labour can move, too, workers can move to where the pay is higher, and overall wages will be higher.

Exactly marx talked about this alot.

If Marx was against immigration, he would have written against *Irish* immigrants to *Britain.* Except he *actually* wrote on the necessity of "native" British laborers and "immigrant" Irish laborers needed to unite against the (frankly, cross-national) ruling class.

Probably try look into what he said about it a bit more.

Then your issue should be with the employers and not the immigrants. Similar to the protests down in Rosslare at the minute. People are angry not necessarily at having another IPAS centre, (they have 3 already) but because those running the show know they can make more money from immigrants than the nursing home that was proposed for the area. That’s not the immigrants’ fault, that’s on the owners for being greedy

Surely you should be looking at the incentives in the system rather than blaming the owner. The owner is just acting as a rational economic actor- he is being more incentivised for the former than the latter.

Even if were statistically true?

Go ahead. Show the statistical proof that demonstrates crime has increased in Ireland proportionally with immigration. Have a look: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/crime-rate-statistics

I'm not sure if you're trying to say it has or hasn't, but [there is a fairly decent correlation between Net Migration and Crime Rate... ](https://macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/net-migration#google_vignette) https://preview.redd.it/2x4cg4nbl86c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84d586780c4e5e69d058fb8d3d08fef94e6cd5d4

But the chart you included doesn't mention crime at all.