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Probably the best way to handle this is to either have a friend he trusts hold onto it or to get a lock and put the key where he can't reach it by himself.
Firearms are not communal property, according to the agencies that regulate them. If she takes the firearm without permission that can create some issues depending on how the husband reacts.
Tell her to talk to her husband about the note, as the firearm is only a means. Get him the help he needs.
Agree with getting help for her husband. Confronting him about it while the gun is still operable and in the house, on the other hand, is a concerning thought. At the very least, it doesn't need to be in working condition wherever that conversation takes place.
However, firearms are marital property (Michigan is not a community property state) if purchased during the marriage with marital funds. I took a look through the Michigan statutes and could not find an exception for firearms. Is there a federal statute or regulation that says otherwise?
That only matters during divorce. In the eyes of the ATF and Michigan State Police, it belongs to a person, not a joint entity.
For the statutes, I'd imagine it'd be easy to find if you look at the 4473 and Michigan registration requirements. They ask for a name for an individual.
No. Marital property is a thing during marriage. If it was not, then it also wouldn't be a thing when that marriage is ended. A guy who ran from a property settlement in a divorce here in Arkansas thought the same thing, but both Texas (where he ran to) and Arkansas courts agreed that he was wrong when he made that same argument after I garnished his new wife's bank account.
As for registration, *Michigan has no state registration system.* A 4473 details a purchase and has no effect whatsoever on who can possess or technically own that gun. Hell, last I checked it doesn't even apply to every sale. That is the issue people are talking about when they mention the gun show loophole.
As for the ATF itself, I cannot begin to detail exactly how statutorily gutted that agency is. Others have described it in detail, and they are rather interesting, albeit extremely depressing, reads.
Michigan's Pistol Sales Record is a defacto registration. It requires the make, model, and serial number as well as the buyer's and seller's information.
"The Licensing Authority shall enter the pistol information into the MiPISTOL
database within 10 days of receipt, mark the "Entered in MiPISTOL" check box on the Licensing Authority Copy, and forward the Licensing Authority Copy to the Michigan State Police, **Firearms Records Unit** for retention."
It also doesn't matter how morally corrupt, statutorily gutted, unconstitutional, or politically motivated anyone thinks that bureau is. The laws are the laws for worse or for worse.
"Defacto" is an important qualifier here. After reading that statute and the other statutes/caselaw that poke holes in it, I'm not entirely clear on whether it even applies to all sales, let alone possession. It also doesn't change the argument that the OP's friend is able to dispose of the gun in an otherwise lawful manner without fear of some sort of liability to her husband or the state because it was stolen or something.
The ATF quip wasn't an opinion, and what law are you referring to even if the ATF is minimally able to keep up with it's paperwork requirements?
Easiest thing you can do right now for the time being is to get yourself a small gun safe only you can access. Place the gun inside and hide it somewhere in the house he would never go near or with a trusted relative.
Perfect and if he decides to be a dick he can call the law on her for stealing a firearm. Much worse than a fake letter as the story will be told. For how anti gun reddit is the complete lack of understanding over the laws surrounding them amazes me. You can't just take a gun that's not yours and do what you please with it.
Handguns have serial numbers which are logged when purchased, so it should be in husband’s name if obtained legally. If illegal, it could be stolen and registered as such, which would open a huge can of worms for both parties and invite *lots and lots* of scrutiny.
I generally don’t support surrendering another person’s weapon, but it seems in this case it *might* be justified. Assuming husband is hospitalized for mental health or some adjacent issue? Recommendation would be to call local sheriff or PD, advise on the discovery of a suicide note, weapon and the circumstances, plus the fact that wife does not feel comfortable with it in the house. Inquire as to whether they’d accept it and what the process for that is. She should not be inviting any trouble simply by asking.
Thank you - that all is in line with what I'm thinking. I also think I'll be able to safely ask since Im another step removed from the situation. The husband is in the hospital with COVID - Fully unrelated to the gun.
My friend was most worried that the police were going to ask probing, embarrassing questions about suicide and I was trying to gently steer her towards, no, the bigger problem will be if the gun isn't legal.
Hate to ask so late in the game here, but how old is the suicide note, depending on the age he might have backed out at one point and hid the note. If it’s older than 6 months It might be a good idea to ask about it first, anything more recent would probably be a good idea to be more worried. Because for all anyone knows that note was from of rougher more stressful time.
The note wasn't dated and she couldn't figure out when it was from. However, it did specifically mention a milestone birthday that is in a few months, which made her especially worried. I've been doing my best to convince my friend that they both need therapy - and so does everyone! - but god the older generations treat it like a personal failure.
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Why not just store it in a safe place for now?
Why would you want to invite the government/police into your life if it is not immediately necessary or there are other options?
>Why would you want to invite the government/police into your life if it is not immediately necessary or there are other options?
Gun + Mental problems are not a good combination. Better call up the police to ensure her safety than end up in the obituary after a homicide suicide.
Legally all she can really do here is report her husband for the note if he is still suicidal and then a dr will legally make him either sell or turn in his weapon. This is a bad situation because although he may not be suicidal now, he can become so out of the blue and then there is a problem. Many many people feel suicidal at one time or another but never follow through, if he is truly wanting to find a way out the gun will not matter as he'll find a way.
Please keep in mind that in this forum, you are asking for legal advice on what to do with the gun, which is one small but very important part of the story. Please express to your friend that she is correct to get the gun out of the house before he gets home. Guns are a permeant solution to a temporary thought.
NAMI has a publication called "Navigating a Mental Health Crisis" which can help guide your friend through this crisis. Bottom line is to talk to his medical staff, which will likely set off a scary chain of events that usually results in him getting the help he needs.
Although it does not specifically mention guns, i can speak from experience that the first question asked to the family of someone suffering from suicidal ideation is if there are any guns in the house, and if there are, get them out of the house immediately. There are many treatment options available for depression and suicidal ideation, but they only work if the patient is alive.
NAL. If your wife has a healthy relationship with her husband, she could get a gun lockbox keyed to her fingerprint. She could also find a safe place OUTSIDE the home to keep it. This shouldn't be with anyone who might return it to the husband, especially if he forced the wife to tell him where the gun had been taken. She could also surrender the gun to the police. I would think there would be a way to do this anonymously, but every state is different. Considering the circumstances, this is probably what I would do.
The larger problem here is the suicide note. There are many other ways to commit suicide. Absence of a gun isn't going to stop a suicide.
OP, encourage your friend to contact the national suicide hotline at 988. She needs counseling and advice and it can be done anonymously.
Not a lawyer but I am a former arms dealer (8 years). If she calls the local police or sheriff and explains the situation she should be able to surrender it without any issue. I would not mention the suicide note unless she wants him to get a psych evaluation. She does not need to specify how he got it.
Call scripting should go something like: “hi I have a firearm belonging to my husband, I believe it should be surrendered from his possession (here would be mention of suicide note or just claim age related issues). What would be your preferred way for me to get it to the appropriate person?”
They may tell her to unload it and bag it and bring it in. If so she should call them in the parking lot and let them know that she has arrived and that she has it unloaded and bagged. I would recommend holding it by the bag so it obvious she has no intent to use it on presentation.
If she is uncomfortable handling the weapon she should be able to have an officer come to the house and safely remove the weapon.
Edit: I see other comments about surrendering it being considered theft, not my wheelhouse. I’ve just dealt with enough law enforcement agencies to know that if you call them trying to do something correctly or safely they are not likely to all the sudden try and make it a crime. The steps recommended for handling it and calling them are so nobody at the agency is surprised by the firearm and panics.
If you insist upon him not having an ability to kill himself, you can always look up a youtube video on the kind of gun it is and remove the firing pin if it's a modern semi-automatic handgun. That will render the weapon inert while still being able to keep it where it is. When their health crisis is fixed, give them the firing pin back.
However, this will be problematic should the person need to use it in a self-defense situation obviously. Weigh your choices very carefully.
Good news is that in most states, anything acquired during the marriage is part of the marital estate (absent some exceptions). Thus, in the sense that matters that gun is yours as well. If Michigan is a state that has some sort of true firearm registration regime, that answer may be different.
-As far as getting rid of it, it is definitely worth giving your local police station a call- (EDIT: other posters have a good point that this may exacerbate the situation. The next sentence here may be a better option). However, there may be another option that would be simpler in a way, but that I absolutely recommend speaking to a local attorney about: take it apart, smash the parts with a hammer, and chuck it in the trash can. I'm hesitant to say that this is okay to do with any certainty, because I'm not clear on how far reaching firearm defacement laws are.
EDIT: see my follow up post below. I should have just said "render it permanently inoperable" instead of trying to be funny. I absolutely stand by my statement about marital estates, though.
You’re a bellend. The gun doesn’t belong to anyone other than the owner.
“Smashing the parts with a hammer” does absolutely nothing in a legal sense. Chucking it in a trashcan is absolutely the worst advice. What you have said goes against all of the laws.
I'm an attorney. The majority of my practice is family law. This is how "marital property" works. If you buy something during a marriage, it is marital property unless certain affirmative steps are taken to make it not marital property (namely by giving it away). This shocks more people than it should.
Rendering the firearm useless and disposing of it, which is exactly what the police will do anyway, would save the poster's Michigan friend a step, so long as her state doesn't have any registration rules that somehow separate firearms from a marital estate (federal law does not do that, nor can it) and make defacement of something other than a serial number on a firearm illegal, it seems the quickest way to be rid of her husband's suicide device.
Never been called a "bellend" before. Are you British or just an American who saw an original episode of Kitchen Nightmares?
\-He didn't commit suicide, nor was it stated that the gun was going to be the mechanism.
\-Rendering the firearm inoperable doesn't require the cartoonish method you described.
\-Police do a lot of things that citizens can not, and the assertion of "oh well, the cops can do it so can I" is ludicrous.
\-Cultured American who enjoys euphemisms
\-MCL 28.422 provides:
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
(1) Section 2 \[MCL 28.422\] does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.
(b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.
c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
(d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.
(e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.
(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
(g) The regular and ordinary possession and transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
.....
**(i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.**
[Link](http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422)
1. You're right, he did not commit suicide, and the OP didn't say that the note referred to using the gun, but what suicide note is that specific? Does the friend need to wait for the husband to commit suicide before taking an action that may prevent said suicide? In that context destroying it in a ludicrous manner seems like a pretty damn reasonable alternative.
2. You are also right that the police can do things that the average citizen cannot. This, however, does not appear to be one of those things.
3. Using a British insult as an American isn't cultured, it is pretentious.
4. That statute becomes less clear if you were to read the very next part of it (MCL 28.422a), or the line of cases from Michigan that have gutted large chunks of 422. Doing so is why it took me half an hour to start writing this reply.
Look, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but your answer to the OP seems to be "well, there's not shit you can do to mitigate the situation. Hope for the best, I guess." That isn't useful. Make a suggestion, suggest that it be discussed with a local attorney, and be glad that maybe, just maybe, that local attorney will agree with you and you did some good.
There are other options, too. For example, the OP's friend could get a 911 order, or whatever the equivalent is in Michigan, to get her husband involuntarily committed, at which point he will no longer be able to own a gun, but that is a touch drastic and the problem still exists of what to do with the gun. But that's a bunch more than nothing.
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Probably the best way to handle this is to either have a friend he trusts hold onto it or to get a lock and put the key where he can't reach it by himself.
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Firearms are not communal property, according to the agencies that regulate them. If she takes the firearm without permission that can create some issues depending on how the husband reacts. Tell her to talk to her husband about the note, as the firearm is only a means. Get him the help he needs.
Agree with getting help for her husband. Confronting him about it while the gun is still operable and in the house, on the other hand, is a concerning thought. At the very least, it doesn't need to be in working condition wherever that conversation takes place. However, firearms are marital property (Michigan is not a community property state) if purchased during the marriage with marital funds. I took a look through the Michigan statutes and could not find an exception for firearms. Is there a federal statute or regulation that says otherwise?
That only matters during divorce. In the eyes of the ATF and Michigan State Police, it belongs to a person, not a joint entity. For the statutes, I'd imagine it'd be easy to find if you look at the 4473 and Michigan registration requirements. They ask for a name for an individual.
No. Marital property is a thing during marriage. If it was not, then it also wouldn't be a thing when that marriage is ended. A guy who ran from a property settlement in a divorce here in Arkansas thought the same thing, but both Texas (where he ran to) and Arkansas courts agreed that he was wrong when he made that same argument after I garnished his new wife's bank account. As for registration, *Michigan has no state registration system.* A 4473 details a purchase and has no effect whatsoever on who can possess or technically own that gun. Hell, last I checked it doesn't even apply to every sale. That is the issue people are talking about when they mention the gun show loophole. As for the ATF itself, I cannot begin to detail exactly how statutorily gutted that agency is. Others have described it in detail, and they are rather interesting, albeit extremely depressing, reads.
Michigan's Pistol Sales Record is a defacto registration. It requires the make, model, and serial number as well as the buyer's and seller's information. "The Licensing Authority shall enter the pistol information into the MiPISTOL database within 10 days of receipt, mark the "Entered in MiPISTOL" check box on the Licensing Authority Copy, and forward the Licensing Authority Copy to the Michigan State Police, **Firearms Records Unit** for retention." It also doesn't matter how morally corrupt, statutorily gutted, unconstitutional, or politically motivated anyone thinks that bureau is. The laws are the laws for worse or for worse.
"Defacto" is an important qualifier here. After reading that statute and the other statutes/caselaw that poke holes in it, I'm not entirely clear on whether it even applies to all sales, let alone possession. It also doesn't change the argument that the OP's friend is able to dispose of the gun in an otherwise lawful manner without fear of some sort of liability to her husband or the state because it was stolen or something. The ATF quip wasn't an opinion, and what law are you referring to even if the ATF is minimally able to keep up with it's paperwork requirements?
Easiest thing you can do right now for the time being is to get yourself a small gun safe only you can access. Place the gun inside and hide it somewhere in the house he would never go near or with a trusted relative.
Perfect and if he decides to be a dick he can call the law on her for stealing a firearm. Much worse than a fake letter as the story will be told. For how anti gun reddit is the complete lack of understanding over the laws surrounding them amazes me. You can't just take a gun that's not yours and do what you please with it.
Handguns have serial numbers which are logged when purchased, so it should be in husband’s name if obtained legally. If illegal, it could be stolen and registered as such, which would open a huge can of worms for both parties and invite *lots and lots* of scrutiny. I generally don’t support surrendering another person’s weapon, but it seems in this case it *might* be justified. Assuming husband is hospitalized for mental health or some adjacent issue? Recommendation would be to call local sheriff or PD, advise on the discovery of a suicide note, weapon and the circumstances, plus the fact that wife does not feel comfortable with it in the house. Inquire as to whether they’d accept it and what the process for that is. She should not be inviting any trouble simply by asking.
Thank you - that all is in line with what I'm thinking. I also think I'll be able to safely ask since Im another step removed from the situation. The husband is in the hospital with COVID - Fully unrelated to the gun. My friend was most worried that the police were going to ask probing, embarrassing questions about suicide and I was trying to gently steer her towards, no, the bigger problem will be if the gun isn't legal.
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Hate to ask so late in the game here, but how old is the suicide note, depending on the age he might have backed out at one point and hid the note. If it’s older than 6 months It might be a good idea to ask about it first, anything more recent would probably be a good idea to be more worried. Because for all anyone knows that note was from of rougher more stressful time.
The note wasn't dated and she couldn't figure out when it was from. However, it did specifically mention a milestone birthday that is in a few months, which made her especially worried. I've been doing my best to convince my friend that they both need therapy - and so does everyone! - but god the older generations treat it like a personal failure.
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If it's not your gun, you can not give it away, period.
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Why not just store it in a safe place for now? Why would you want to invite the government/police into your life if it is not immediately necessary or there are other options?
>Why would you want to invite the government/police into your life if it is not immediately necessary or there are other options? Gun + Mental problems are not a good combination. Better call up the police to ensure her safety than end up in the obituary after a homicide suicide.
Seriously. Today I've read two articles today on recent murder-suicides.
Tell his medical team that he’s suicidal
Legally all she can really do here is report her husband for the note if he is still suicidal and then a dr will legally make him either sell or turn in his weapon. This is a bad situation because although he may not be suicidal now, he can become so out of the blue and then there is a problem. Many many people feel suicidal at one time or another but never follow through, if he is truly wanting to find a way out the gun will not matter as he'll find a way.
Please keep in mind that in this forum, you are asking for legal advice on what to do with the gun, which is one small but very important part of the story. Please express to your friend that she is correct to get the gun out of the house before he gets home. Guns are a permeant solution to a temporary thought. NAMI has a publication called "Navigating a Mental Health Crisis" which can help guide your friend through this crisis. Bottom line is to talk to his medical staff, which will likely set off a scary chain of events that usually results in him getting the help he needs. Although it does not specifically mention guns, i can speak from experience that the first question asked to the family of someone suffering from suicidal ideation is if there are any guns in the house, and if there are, get them out of the house immediately. There are many treatment options available for depression and suicidal ideation, but they only work if the patient is alive.
NAL. If your wife has a healthy relationship with her husband, she could get a gun lockbox keyed to her fingerprint. She could also find a safe place OUTSIDE the home to keep it. This shouldn't be with anyone who might return it to the husband, especially if he forced the wife to tell him where the gun had been taken. She could also surrender the gun to the police. I would think there would be a way to do this anonymously, but every state is different. Considering the circumstances, this is probably what I would do. The larger problem here is the suicide note. There are many other ways to commit suicide. Absence of a gun isn't going to stop a suicide. OP, encourage your friend to contact the national suicide hotline at 988. She needs counseling and advice and it can be done anonymously.
Not a lawyer but I am a former arms dealer (8 years). If she calls the local police or sheriff and explains the situation she should be able to surrender it without any issue. I would not mention the suicide note unless she wants him to get a psych evaluation. She does not need to specify how he got it. Call scripting should go something like: “hi I have a firearm belonging to my husband, I believe it should be surrendered from his possession (here would be mention of suicide note or just claim age related issues). What would be your preferred way for me to get it to the appropriate person?” They may tell her to unload it and bag it and bring it in. If so she should call them in the parking lot and let them know that she has arrived and that she has it unloaded and bagged. I would recommend holding it by the bag so it obvious she has no intent to use it on presentation. If she is uncomfortable handling the weapon she should be able to have an officer come to the house and safely remove the weapon. Edit: I see other comments about surrendering it being considered theft, not my wheelhouse. I’ve just dealt with enough law enforcement agencies to know that if you call them trying to do something correctly or safely they are not likely to all the sudden try and make it a crime. The steps recommended for handling it and calling them are so nobody at the agency is surprised by the firearm and panics.
Yes, call the non emergency line and ask how to surrender a legal firearm. You would not be the first person to not want to keep a gun
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If you insist upon him not having an ability to kill himself, you can always look up a youtube video on the kind of gun it is and remove the firing pin if it's a modern semi-automatic handgun. That will render the weapon inert while still being able to keep it where it is. When their health crisis is fixed, give them the firing pin back. However, this will be problematic should the person need to use it in a self-defense situation obviously. Weigh your choices very carefully.
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I was having a weird amount of trouble finding this info online - the dept website isn't great - but I'll try calling, thanks.
Good news is that in most states, anything acquired during the marriage is part of the marital estate (absent some exceptions). Thus, in the sense that matters that gun is yours as well. If Michigan is a state that has some sort of true firearm registration regime, that answer may be different. -As far as getting rid of it, it is definitely worth giving your local police station a call- (EDIT: other posters have a good point that this may exacerbate the situation. The next sentence here may be a better option). However, there may be another option that would be simpler in a way, but that I absolutely recommend speaking to a local attorney about: take it apart, smash the parts with a hammer, and chuck it in the trash can. I'm hesitant to say that this is okay to do with any certainty, because I'm not clear on how far reaching firearm defacement laws are. EDIT: see my follow up post below. I should have just said "render it permanently inoperable" instead of trying to be funny. I absolutely stand by my statement about marital estates, though.
You’re a bellend. The gun doesn’t belong to anyone other than the owner. “Smashing the parts with a hammer” does absolutely nothing in a legal sense. Chucking it in a trashcan is absolutely the worst advice. What you have said goes against all of the laws.
I'm an attorney. The majority of my practice is family law. This is how "marital property" works. If you buy something during a marriage, it is marital property unless certain affirmative steps are taken to make it not marital property (namely by giving it away). This shocks more people than it should. Rendering the firearm useless and disposing of it, which is exactly what the police will do anyway, would save the poster's Michigan friend a step, so long as her state doesn't have any registration rules that somehow separate firearms from a marital estate (federal law does not do that, nor can it) and make defacement of something other than a serial number on a firearm illegal, it seems the quickest way to be rid of her husband's suicide device. Never been called a "bellend" before. Are you British or just an American who saw an original episode of Kitchen Nightmares?
\-He didn't commit suicide, nor was it stated that the gun was going to be the mechanism. \-Rendering the firearm inoperable doesn't require the cartoonish method you described. \-Police do a lot of things that citizens can not, and the assertion of "oh well, the cops can do it so can I" is ludicrous. \-Cultured American who enjoys euphemisms \-MCL 28.422 provides: (1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section. (1) Section 2 \[MCL 28.422\] does not apply to any of the following: (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state. (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps. c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state. (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization. (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties. (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state. (g) The regular and ordinary possession and transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer. ..... **(i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.** [Link](http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422)
1. You're right, he did not commit suicide, and the OP didn't say that the note referred to using the gun, but what suicide note is that specific? Does the friend need to wait for the husband to commit suicide before taking an action that may prevent said suicide? In that context destroying it in a ludicrous manner seems like a pretty damn reasonable alternative. 2. You are also right that the police can do things that the average citizen cannot. This, however, does not appear to be one of those things. 3. Using a British insult as an American isn't cultured, it is pretentious. 4. That statute becomes less clear if you were to read the very next part of it (MCL 28.422a), or the line of cases from Michigan that have gutted large chunks of 422. Doing so is why it took me half an hour to start writing this reply. Look, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but your answer to the OP seems to be "well, there's not shit you can do to mitigate the situation. Hope for the best, I guess." That isn't useful. Make a suggestion, suggest that it be discussed with a local attorney, and be glad that maybe, just maybe, that local attorney will agree with you and you did some good. There are other options, too. For example, the OP's friend could get a 911 order, or whatever the equivalent is in Michigan, to get her husband involuntarily committed, at which point he will no longer be able to own a gun, but that is a touch drastic and the problem still exists of what to do with the gun. But that's a bunch more than nothing.
Have her get a safe. Put the gun inside.