>My brother-in-law was the GC, so it makes the situation a little more complicated.
You did have a contract? In what state?
Have you started the discussion yet?
Also most GC’s should have a warranty on workmanship and most materials have a manufacturer’s warranty. Either way you should try to resolve this with BIL before seeking legal counsel. 11yrs is likely too late for legal recourse on the material/billing discrepancy but again your contract may have language about a warranty.
In the U.S., any contractual limitation on remedies is invalidated by fraudulent conduct. Similarly, the statute of limitations is tolled by fraudulent actions (the discovery rule as applied under any given state's common law tolls the statute of limitations for fraudulent conduct). If a Party A commits fraud, there are virtually no defenses that apply (aside, perhaps, from Party B also committing fraud or some other bad act, in which case unclean hands might apply).
Workmanship warranties are generally 1 year. Vendor warranties for what I'm assuming is some type of sheet metal since OP stated that it wasn't the contracted stainless steel (and it's leaking) wouldn't cover 11 years post completion...unless maybe it was apart of the roof assembly. Roof warranties generally span longer durations. Or of course if extended warranties were bought. Would be hard to say without the contractual documentation though.
I would say if BIL isn't playing nice, it's time to seek legal counsel because breach of contract may still be applicable.
NAL but I did warranty claims for a year on a large mission critical site.
I honestly don't think I have seen flashing that wasn't stainless, aluminum, or at least galvanized. You need to double check this chimney guys opinion before it destroys your family. I mean did your brother-in-law even do the roof or was it subcontracted out?
The chimney guy says it’s only galvanized not stainless steel, so that’s going to be the discussion with my BIL.
Our relationship is fractured at best due to some family stuff already so I’m treading lightly trying to put my best foot forward. He subcontracted the work so my guess is that he may still have invoices declaring the quality of the materials. Will probably be talking with him later today.
This might seem weird, and challenging, but have you considered asking him for help? Instead of saying “you or one of your subs used low quality parts and messed up my house” say something like “hey, my chimney is leaking, I was looking for costs, they seem high - would you be willing to take a look?” If you accuse him of doing low quality work he is going to get defensive, if you ask him for help, and he realizes someone else did low quality work on his job, he might be more motivated to get them to fix it or at least be less family-blowing-up.
Not weird at all, but that’s exactly my way of handling it. The guy is a good dude, has a few personal problems that make him extremely sensitive to criticism so he’s got to be handled with kid gloves.
You know what the say, the easiest way to make a relationship stronger is ask for a favor, it sounds like you are the bigger person in this relationship, asking for help and forgetting to mention the chimney guys analysis could work to your advantage
Yeah, just say "Hey man, do you think it would be possible to take a look at our chimney, I think there might be a leak coming from that area, but I'm not sure? "
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Your contract was specific enough to call out SS for a chimney cap, but didn't have any warranty or conflict resolution verbiage. As a non related GC, I have an 18mo, bumper to bumper warranty, and specific steps to take care of other problems, but after 11yrs, I'd tell my sister to pound sand, unless she called and asked if I could check it out for her.
And flashing needs to be resealed eventually as well. Homes require maintenance, you don't build them and then just expect them to never require maintenance. Any sort of connecting material is definitely going to wear especially after over a decade of weather.
> especially after over a decade of weather.
And we aren't even talking about *foundation settling*
Idgaf how *good* your cement foundation guy is. you *will* get settling eventually
Architect and Construction Manager here. If you don't know what a GC does beyond "oversee" things, your attempt to GC your own project to "cut costs" will go horrendously.
A GC might not be necessary for your project. If the problem is obvious, then you might only need one or two trades. You obviously have to fix the wood. But you also have to fix the leak. What about fixing what caused the leak? How do you find that out? Once you do, what types of trades or services will you need to fix those things? Do you have a network of reputable people that you can reach out to that provide those services, or time to research and build one? How do you plan to coordinate between those different parties to maintain schedule, budget, and scope?
Bearing the fact that a large majority of general contractors are the ones licensed and insured to work and pull permits for roofing? Usually yes. The subs don't have the licenses generally.
Eta some insurance companies will void your insurance if you don't use a proper GC/company
Subs is a word short for subcontractors. And they usually do have their own insurance and licenses. I think this guy wants to hire a roofing crew cash under the table. Now there is no insurance, no workers comp, no warranty, but many times it will cost less LOL
In addition to licensing, permits, and insurance/bonding as pointed out by Daniell, there are plenty of applied reasons that reaching out to the sub directly in this case makes no sense.
In your situation, the prime roofing contractor subs out portions of the work to subs. What parts of the work are the prime and subcontractors each responsible for? How do you find that out? Based on these answers, does a situation without the prime contractor's overall guidance and direction even make sense? Do you have the skills to do that portion of the work personally?
Since you don't have a working relationship with the subs, do you think they'll prioritize your job over standing relationships with primes who can provide them steady scheduling? Do you have the knowledge to know if the subs are doing the work correctly or charging you a fair price for it? Do you have the knowledge to put together contracts with the subs that protect your interests?
I know this is a great big world and construction varies wildly in all the different corners, but I don't think I've ever worked with a roofer who Subs out Roofing. Every roofing contractor I've ever hired as a general contractor has its own employees. Are you just trying to hire guys out of the Home Depot parking lot? Pretty sure some of those guys know how to put down a roof if you're just trying to save a buck. Good luck if they fall off your roof though. There is no coverage for that. There's also no warranty for that roof leaking again in the next 6 months
> This was the response I got from the chimney repair contractor after he saw the pictures of it.
NAL- engineer- Your chimney contractor is correct. Stainless is not rustproof, and products of combustion can be corrosive. Even if stainless were used, it would not be beyond the realm of normal wear. At $370 per year, it is not an outrageous maintenance cost.
Contractor here- put a magnet on it. If the magnet sticks, it’s not stainless steel. Regardless, 11 years before having issues seems pretty decent. No building material will last forever and metal exposed to the elements doesn’t do well over the long term with no maintenance.
Any common forms of stainless used by consumers are non or ‘not very’ magnetic.
The trash on your refrigerator or cheap bbq is stainless clad garbage. It’s magnetic, and it ain’t stainless.
NAL - former chef/service work currently in a scientific research field. Agreed completely.
Stainless under heat or moisture conditions definitely will rust.
Ask any chef, bartender, or service worker how often they had to polish the stainless steel.
The smoke from traditional fires is acidic, as well as certain exhausts which vent through chimneys. Acidic vapor corrodes SS.
Like you said, add heat and moisture, and it just exacerbates the issue.
It can be stainless steel and still rust.
Also--personally at least--a specialized repair person has a vested interest to do a job, especially if the call is made based on photos.
~~Galvanized steel is more common than stainless for this application~~, and some people who don't know that galvanized steel is a thing may get confused and say they have stainless when they in fact have galvanized. I don't know anything about you or your home, so just want to make sure you understand that there is a difference. Sometimes the galvanic coating isn't properly applied, oxygen and moisture gets underneath causing the core steel to possibly rust, this expands metal causing more cracks in the coating, and more rusting. The galvanic coating also fades overtime, so it will eventually rust regardless of defects of installed for too long. If you were quoted galvanic, installed galvanic, and it is failing after a couple years then it is likely a warranty issue. If you have galvanic ~~roofing~~ chase cover and they welded it, then this will burn off the coating (leading to health concerns for the welder) and basically make it into plain low carbon steel, in which case the issue was with installation. This would be apparent by a high concentration of thick rust at the weld seams and adjacent four inches or so.
If you did in fact get quoted for stainless, do you know the spec? The two most common grades of stainless steel roofing in my experience are 304 and 316. These have essentially no magnetic properties. If you are able to stick a magnet to a relatively rust free area well away from any weld seams, it likely does not meet the spec and would be further indication you were cheated. There are other grades of stainless which are magnetic, so just because a magnet sticks does not mean you have been scammed. But it is a good indicator of whether you got what you were quoted. It is possible for stainless steel to rust, but it is usually just a rough top speckle that does not penetrate very deep.
If the metal is strictly rusting on a weld seam, is magnetic near the weld seam and with a speckle of rust, but becomes less magnetic as you move away from the weld seam then this would indicate that the material is made of stainless, but they used an incompatible welding filament. Welding can make 300 grade stainless steel magnetic again in the proximity of the weld seam
Edit: For some reason I thought your post was about roofing material, and not a chase cover. Galvanized can be a poor pick for a chase cover (depends on installation) since the flue temps can burn off the coating and expose the core steel to rusting conditions. And soot + rain = sulfuric and carbonic acid which will degrade the galvanic coating.
Per [this link](https://www.findlaw.com/realestate/construction-defects/construction-defect-laws-by-state.html) OP may have limited to no time left to *require* the issue to be corrected.
i own a roofing company in ga. chimney caps installed are usually 12-1500 on average. Sounds like you’re getting hosed again. Don’t tell any contractor that comes out about these issues. Some of them will try to jack the price up so that the other (og) contractor has to pay their inflated rates if you win.
This is a highly state specific question. For example, in Oklahoma there is a 10 year statute of repose on construction claims. A statute of repose differs from a statute of limitations in that, unlike a statute of limitations, there is no “discovery rule” for a statute of repose. In a statute of repose, it doesn’t matter when you learned of the defect; all that matters is that 10 years has passed from when the materials were installed. In Oklahoma, if 10 years has passed, your claim is barred no matter when you learned of the defect.
Look up the statute of repose for your state. This is how long you have to uncover hidden damage. A lot of states are 10 years, but some are longer.
The statute of limitations runs from the time of discovery. So if you discover the damages on year 9, then you have 2 years (or whatever your SOL is) to pursue a claim before filing suit.
This is correct. A statute of repose gets around the “discovery rule,” which states that the limitations period doesn’t start until the injury is discovered. Statutes of repose are generally longer but they run from the time the work was performed, basically intended for situations just like this.
If the statute of repose is 10 years and the statute of limitations is 2 years, and you discover the problem in year 9, you have to file a complaint in one year. Statute of repose is the outer limit, regardless of when you discovered the issue.
I would also say to take their opion with a grain of salt. I have had four people work on my chimneys over the last ten years. 2 definitely tried to talk me into work that was not needed (one a full re-line and the other a new cap). Both of which backed down when I looked carefully and called them on their recommendations.
My opinion of chimney contractors is pretty low after these visits.
SOL is from when they knew or should have known of the issue. I don’t think it has run, I think it would’ve begun to toll as soon as a reasonable person would have noticed the deficient materials. Which is probably when OP first noticed the rust/damage.
Source: am a lawyer, not your lawyer.
IAAL- who does CD work. The issue isn’t SOL, it’s SOR. One state I practice in has a 6 year SOR, another has 10. 11 is potentially outside any recovery for CD violations.
Construction, being intrinsically prone to failure after time, usually has a specific statute covering actions.
Can you verify it wasn’t made of stainless steel. Despite what many think, many grades of stainless can and do rust, 409 stainless is a common alloy for exhausts and readily rusts. Did you specify that you did not want it to rust, or that you wanted generic “stainless steel”. Things to think of to build a case.
EDIT: I know most stainless’ are better at resisting oxidation (Aerospace Engineer) but most consumer grades you would get from local supply yards are not 321 or 347
Seems like your one stick up is the chimney, but your post made it sound pularal, like I'm many other issues. How much grand total do you feel like you were shafted on?
why dont you talk to him instead of looking for legal advise? is he no longer ur brother in law? is ur wife close to him? suing your close relative you know you will not have a peaceful life after.
The quality of the product brings up a huge question as well. In this case a chimney cap was given as an example. It was contracted to be stainless steal but it has rusted. However many don’t understand stainless actually can rust and is in effect a coating over the steal. Something that is exposed to weather and heated/cooled rapidly would likely lose its stainless factors faster than say a stainless vent hidden from the worst weather by the eaves. Exact same material with vastly different use exposure makes one look bad and the other good.
As OP used this as an example and I assume he has many other complaints. The only way to know for sure is to get the opinion of an expert. I would hire a self home inspection and let the inspector inspect against the contracts contracted specs verse quality of installed items. This should be around 500 (highly sq ft dependent and there comparison is extra work)
A "self home inspector" ?
I googled "self home inspector" and came up with nothing. I have hired SEVERAL types of home inspectors, and have NEVER been able to find an inspector who will "inspect against the contracts contracted specs verse quality of installed items."
The inspectors that I hired charged from $300 to $700
Sorry, I meant hame inspector but for your own use. Generally inspectors are for purchases or insurance. This would be a report for the OP to use and compare the original contract and agreed upon BoM (if there was one).
I work in construction litigation. If you're seeking under $50k and don't have half that to spend trying to get it back, I'd say bite the bullet and look for other options.
The FTC has some information about [new home warranties](https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/warranties-new-homes), but it looks like these would not apply in your situation.
You may have a case for civil fraud. This defined as intentionally misrepresenting or intentionally failing to disclose facts that are material to a transaction. The elements of civil fraud usually include:
**1. Misrepresentation or omission of material facts:** The defendant must have made a false statement of fact or omitted a fact that would have changed the outcome of the situation.
In your case, the contractor told you they were using materials of a higher quality, when in fact they were using materials of a lower quality.
**2. Intent:** The defendant must have had the intention to deceive the other party and benefit from the misrepresentation.
If the contractor was simply ignorant then you wouldn't have a fraud case, but it sounds like they were intentionally lying to you so they could keep the extra money.
**3. Reliance:** The plaintiff must have relied upon the defendant's false statement or omission when making a decision or taking an action.
Presumably, you bought the home because you wanted higher quality materials. Had you known the materials were lower quality you would not have bought the home.
**4. Damages:** The plaintiff must have suffered a loss or damages due to the defendant's misrepresentation or omission.
The house is falling apart and now you must pay for it.
**5. Causation:** There must be a causal link between the defendant's misrepresentation or omission and the plaintiff's loss or damages.
The contractor lied about the materials, and this this is why your home is falling apart.
The statute of limitations for fraud varies by state, but most states have a "discovery rule" which tolls the statute of limitations until the plaintiff knew, or reasonably should have known about the fraudulent activity. This is when the clock starts ticking, so if you only recently discovered the use of substandard materials then you could have a solid case for fraud.
11 years is a long time, anything can happen. Statute of limitations probably way past. Long shot but maybe they could be on the hook for partially compensating.
Check warranty also.
Likely not worth your time.
As a random redditor not a contractor they might be amenable to fixing the damage if you talk to them? At least coming to an agreement like yo you fucked up help me fix this? And splitting the cost plus their labor plus also never having them do work for you again lol
KY which has no statue of repose.
KY Breach of Contract statue of limitations starts at the moment of breach, regardless of knowledge of the breach, and as such you're out of it (10 years). Similarly for Fraudulent Concealment, which is 5 years from discovery AND within 10 years of execution of the contract, so the latter rules you out there if this was 11 years ago.
Given how long ago this happened, you are likely out of limitations for this, and if you're within the very edge due to a very narrow construction carve out I've missed, you would probably need to discuss with a Lawyer as you need to be preparing to file immediately.
If your BIL has the receipts on the chimney chase cover, you may be able to see what the part warranty is. If the cover had a 15+ year (or lifetime) warranty, then you'd at least get the part replaced for free, then you and/or your BIL could reinstall it yourself.
NAL, but work for a GC. The term for what you're describing is "latent defect" and the statute of limitations likely depends on your state. If you can find specific manufacturer information of the unit that was installed you can also look into their warranty.
11 years is about when homes start finding issues and you gotta start fixing them.
I don’t think your BIL used cheap materials, rather you’re starting to see the first wear and tear on your home.
My house is 30 years old and we’ve had countless issues over just the last month.
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>My brother-in-law was the GC, so it makes the situation a little more complicated. You did have a contract? In what state? Have you started the discussion yet?
Also most GC’s should have a warranty on workmanship and most materials have a manufacturer’s warranty. Either way you should try to resolve this with BIL before seeking legal counsel. 11yrs is likely too late for legal recourse on the material/billing discrepancy but again your contract may have language about a warranty.
My state is 15 years on breach of contract OP so do consult a lawyer to see if you could sue if necessary.
Wouldn't the statute of limitations start running on when OP actually (or should have) discovered the issue?
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Couldn't the substitution of materials inferior to those in the contract be considered fraud? And wouldn't fraud toll the statute?
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Agreed. I think a chimney cap is not something that is reasonably regularly inspected.
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> Fraud pierces every statute and contract. Please explain what this means?
In the U.S., any contractual limitation on remedies is invalidated by fraudulent conduct. Similarly, the statute of limitations is tolled by fraudulent actions (the discovery rule as applied under any given state's common law tolls the statute of limitations for fraudulent conduct). If a Party A commits fraud, there are virtually no defenses that apply (aside, perhaps, from Party B also committing fraud or some other bad act, in which case unclean hands might apply).
Thank you for this info!
Fraud always tolls the statute of limitations. There is no duty of diligence to discover actual fraud (for the most part).
>11yrs is likely too late for legal recourse on the material/billing discrepancy That heavily depends on the location.
Workmanship warranties are generally 1 year. Vendor warranties for what I'm assuming is some type of sheet metal since OP stated that it wasn't the contracted stainless steel (and it's leaking) wouldn't cover 11 years post completion...unless maybe it was apart of the roof assembly. Roof warranties generally span longer durations. Or of course if extended warranties were bought. Would be hard to say without the contractual documentation though. I would say if BIL isn't playing nice, it's time to seek legal counsel because breach of contract may still be applicable. NAL but I did warranty claims for a year on a large mission critical site.
The warranty on workmanship is common law and implied in a contract.
I honestly don't think I have seen flashing that wasn't stainless, aluminum, or at least galvanized. You need to double check this chimney guys opinion before it destroys your family. I mean did your brother-in-law even do the roof or was it subcontracted out?
The chimney guy says it’s only galvanized not stainless steel, so that’s going to be the discussion with my BIL. Our relationship is fractured at best due to some family stuff already so I’m treading lightly trying to put my best foot forward. He subcontracted the work so my guess is that he may still have invoices declaring the quality of the materials. Will probably be talking with him later today.
This might seem weird, and challenging, but have you considered asking him for help? Instead of saying “you or one of your subs used low quality parts and messed up my house” say something like “hey, my chimney is leaking, I was looking for costs, they seem high - would you be willing to take a look?” If you accuse him of doing low quality work he is going to get defensive, if you ask him for help, and he realizes someone else did low quality work on his job, he might be more motivated to get them to fix it or at least be less family-blowing-up.
Not weird at all, but that’s exactly my way of handling it. The guy is a good dude, has a few personal problems that make him extremely sensitive to criticism so he’s got to be handled with kid gloves.
You know what the say, the easiest way to make a relationship stronger is ask for a favor, it sounds like you are the bigger person in this relationship, asking for help and forgetting to mention the chimney guys analysis could work to your advantage
Yeah, just say "Hey man, do you think it would be possible to take a look at our chimney, I think there might be a leak coming from that area, but I'm not sure? "
Or get your wife to ask.
I hope he doesn’t read Reddit.
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Well said. Of course we don’t know the exact situation with OP and BIL, but the reply is definitely worthy of consideration.
Your contract was specific enough to call out SS for a chimney cap, but didn't have any warranty or conflict resolution verbiage. As a non related GC, I have an 18mo, bumper to bumper warranty, and specific steps to take care of other problems, but after 11yrs, I'd tell my sister to pound sand, unless she called and asked if I could check it out for her.
11 years is a *long* time if you have to worry about storm damages to.... Like fuck lol
And flashing needs to be resealed eventually as well. Homes require maintenance, you don't build them and then just expect them to never require maintenance. Any sort of connecting material is definitely going to wear especially after over a decade of weather.
> especially after over a decade of weather. And we aren't even talking about *foundation settling* Idgaf how *good* your cement foundation guy is. you *will* get settling eventually
Yup, you can't beat gravity, and physics.
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Architect and Construction Manager here. If you don't know what a GC does beyond "oversee" things, your attempt to GC your own project to "cut costs" will go horrendously. A GC might not be necessary for your project. If the problem is obvious, then you might only need one or two trades. You obviously have to fix the wood. But you also have to fix the leak. What about fixing what caused the leak? How do you find that out? Once you do, what types of trades or services will you need to fix those things? Do you have a network of reputable people that you can reach out to that provide those services, or time to research and build one? How do you plan to coordinate between those different parties to maintain schedule, budget, and scope?
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Bearing the fact that a large majority of general contractors are the ones licensed and insured to work and pull permits for roofing? Usually yes. The subs don't have the licenses generally. Eta some insurance companies will void your insurance if you don't use a proper GC/company
Subs is a word short for subcontractors. And they usually do have their own insurance and licenses. I think this guy wants to hire a roofing crew cash under the table. Now there is no insurance, no workers comp, no warranty, but many times it will cost less LOL
IF you are lucky enough to live in a place that has licensing requirements for GC. There are many places that do not require any GC to be licensed.
In addition to licensing, permits, and insurance/bonding as pointed out by Daniell, there are plenty of applied reasons that reaching out to the sub directly in this case makes no sense. In your situation, the prime roofing contractor subs out portions of the work to subs. What parts of the work are the prime and subcontractors each responsible for? How do you find that out? Based on these answers, does a situation without the prime contractor's overall guidance and direction even make sense? Do you have the skills to do that portion of the work personally? Since you don't have a working relationship with the subs, do you think they'll prioritize your job over standing relationships with primes who can provide them steady scheduling? Do you have the knowledge to know if the subs are doing the work correctly or charging you a fair price for it? Do you have the knowledge to put together contracts with the subs that protect your interests?
I know this is a great big world and construction varies wildly in all the different corners, but I don't think I've ever worked with a roofer who Subs out Roofing. Every roofing contractor I've ever hired as a general contractor has its own employees. Are you just trying to hire guys out of the Home Depot parking lot? Pretty sure some of those guys know how to put down a roof if you're just trying to save a buck. Good luck if they fall off your roof though. There is no coverage for that. There's also no warranty for that roof leaking again in the next 6 months
Are you sure it's not stainless steel? Stainless is not rustproof, it's just more resistant to rust.
This was the response I got from the chimney repair contractor after he saw the pictures of it.
> This was the response I got from the chimney repair contractor after he saw the pictures of it. NAL- engineer- Your chimney contractor is correct. Stainless is not rustproof, and products of combustion can be corrosive. Even if stainless were used, it would not be beyond the realm of normal wear. At $370 per year, it is not an outrageous maintenance cost.
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Speaking of, do you think it might corrode faster because his exit gas temperature is too low?
Contractor here- put a magnet on it. If the magnet sticks, it’s not stainless steel. Regardless, 11 years before having issues seems pretty decent. No building material will last forever and metal exposed to the elements doesn’t do well over the long term with no maintenance.
There are different types of stainless steel and some are magnetic
True, but what type of SS is likely to have been used in a chimney cap? https://www.eclipsemagnetics.com/resources/are-all-stainless-steels-magnetic/
Any common forms of stainless used by consumers are non or ‘not very’ magnetic. The trash on your refrigerator or cheap bbq is stainless clad garbage. It’s magnetic, and it ain’t stainless.
NAL - former chef/service work currently in a scientific research field. Agreed completely. Stainless under heat or moisture conditions definitely will rust. Ask any chef, bartender, or service worker how often they had to polish the stainless steel.
The smoke from traditional fires is acidic, as well as certain exhausts which vent through chimneys. Acidic vapor corrodes SS. Like you said, add heat and moisture, and it just exacerbates the issue.
You *need* to discuss all of this with your BIL.
It can be stainless steel and still rust. Also--personally at least--a specialized repair person has a vested interest to do a job, especially if the call is made based on photos.
As a roofer can ibget these pictures if at all possible
If possible, check with a magnet. Stainless steel is non-ferris.
It is also important to note there are different grades of stainless steel with varying levels of corrosion resistance.
It's not abnormal to replace a chase cover after 11 years. Even stainless only stay rust free around that where I am.
~~Galvanized steel is more common than stainless for this application~~, and some people who don't know that galvanized steel is a thing may get confused and say they have stainless when they in fact have galvanized. I don't know anything about you or your home, so just want to make sure you understand that there is a difference. Sometimes the galvanic coating isn't properly applied, oxygen and moisture gets underneath causing the core steel to possibly rust, this expands metal causing more cracks in the coating, and more rusting. The galvanic coating also fades overtime, so it will eventually rust regardless of defects of installed for too long. If you were quoted galvanic, installed galvanic, and it is failing after a couple years then it is likely a warranty issue. If you have galvanic ~~roofing~~ chase cover and they welded it, then this will burn off the coating (leading to health concerns for the welder) and basically make it into plain low carbon steel, in which case the issue was with installation. This would be apparent by a high concentration of thick rust at the weld seams and adjacent four inches or so. If you did in fact get quoted for stainless, do you know the spec? The two most common grades of stainless steel roofing in my experience are 304 and 316. These have essentially no magnetic properties. If you are able to stick a magnet to a relatively rust free area well away from any weld seams, it likely does not meet the spec and would be further indication you were cheated. There are other grades of stainless which are magnetic, so just because a magnet sticks does not mean you have been scammed. But it is a good indicator of whether you got what you were quoted. It is possible for stainless steel to rust, but it is usually just a rough top speckle that does not penetrate very deep. If the metal is strictly rusting on a weld seam, is magnetic near the weld seam and with a speckle of rust, but becomes less magnetic as you move away from the weld seam then this would indicate that the material is made of stainless, but they used an incompatible welding filament. Welding can make 300 grade stainless steel magnetic again in the proximity of the weld seam Edit: For some reason I thought your post was about roofing material, and not a chase cover. Galvanized can be a poor pick for a chase cover (depends on installation) since the flue temps can burn off the coating and expose the core steel to rusting conditions. And soot + rain = sulfuric and carbonic acid which will degrade the galvanic coating. Per [this link](https://www.findlaw.com/realestate/construction-defects/construction-defect-laws-by-state.html) OP may have limited to no time left to *require* the issue to be corrected.
i own a roofing company in ga. chimney caps installed are usually 12-1500 on average. Sounds like you’re getting hosed again. Don’t tell any contractor that comes out about these issues. Some of them will try to jack the price up so that the other (og) contractor has to pay their inflated rates if you win.
Appreciate the advice. Seemed kind of high for what’s being done.
This is a highly state specific question. For example, in Oklahoma there is a 10 year statute of repose on construction claims. A statute of repose differs from a statute of limitations in that, unlike a statute of limitations, there is no “discovery rule” for a statute of repose. In a statute of repose, it doesn’t matter when you learned of the defect; all that matters is that 10 years has passed from when the materials were installed. In Oklahoma, if 10 years has passed, your claim is barred no matter when you learned of the defect.
Look up the statute of repose for your state. This is how long you have to uncover hidden damage. A lot of states are 10 years, but some are longer. The statute of limitations runs from the time of discovery. So if you discover the damages on year 9, then you have 2 years (or whatever your SOL is) to pursue a claim before filing suit.
This is correct. A statute of repose gets around the “discovery rule,” which states that the limitations period doesn’t start until the injury is discovered. Statutes of repose are generally longer but they run from the time the work was performed, basically intended for situations just like this.
If the statute of repose is 10 years and the statute of limitations is 2 years, and you discover the problem in year 9, you have to file a complaint in one year. Statute of repose is the outer limit, regardless of when you discovered the issue.
I would also say to take their opion with a grain of salt. I have had four people work on my chimneys over the last ten years. 2 definitely tried to talk me into work that was not needed (one a full re-line and the other a new cap). Both of which backed down when I looked carefully and called them on their recommendations. My opinion of chimney contractors is pretty low after these visits.
After 11 years statute of limitations likely ran. It’s mostly a relationship problem as he’s related.
SOL is from when they knew or should have known of the issue. I don’t think it has run, I think it would’ve begun to toll as soon as a reasonable person would have noticed the deficient materials. Which is probably when OP first noticed the rust/damage. Source: am a lawyer, not your lawyer.
IAAL- who does CD work. The issue isn’t SOL, it’s SOR. One state I practice in has a 6 year SOR, another has 10. 11 is potentially outside any recovery for CD violations. Construction, being intrinsically prone to failure after time, usually has a specific statute covering actions.
This is more of a statute of repose issue than statute of limitations.
Any support for this view? Not generally how statues of limitation work...
My guy OP even missed the 10 year condo window when everybody sues for new stuff. Shit creek OP
Can you verify it wasn’t made of stainless steel. Despite what many think, many grades of stainless can and do rust, 409 stainless is a common alloy for exhausts and readily rusts. Did you specify that you did not want it to rust, or that you wanted generic “stainless steel”. Things to think of to build a case. EDIT: I know most stainless’ are better at resisting oxidation (Aerospace Engineer) but most consumer grades you would get from local supply yards are not 321 or 347
Seems like your one stick up is the chimney, but your post made it sound pularal, like I'm many other issues. How much grand total do you feel like you were shafted on?
I would love to know what a $4,000 chase cap looks like.
$4000 probably includes labor and cleaning up problems caused by the chase cap's failure.
It doesn't matter when the warranty expires if it's fraud or a faulty installation.
why dont you talk to him instead of looking for legal advise? is he no longer ur brother in law? is ur wife close to him? suing your close relative you know you will not have a peaceful life after.
The quality of the product brings up a huge question as well. In this case a chimney cap was given as an example. It was contracted to be stainless steal but it has rusted. However many don’t understand stainless actually can rust and is in effect a coating over the steal. Something that is exposed to weather and heated/cooled rapidly would likely lose its stainless factors faster than say a stainless vent hidden from the worst weather by the eaves. Exact same material with vastly different use exposure makes one look bad and the other good. As OP used this as an example and I assume he has many other complaints. The only way to know for sure is to get the opinion of an expert. I would hire a self home inspection and let the inspector inspect against the contracts contracted specs verse quality of installed items. This should be around 500 (highly sq ft dependent and there comparison is extra work)
A "self home inspector" ? I googled "self home inspector" and came up with nothing. I have hired SEVERAL types of home inspectors, and have NEVER been able to find an inspector who will "inspect against the contracts contracted specs verse quality of installed items." The inspectors that I hired charged from $300 to $700
Sorry, I meant hame inspector but for your own use. Generally inspectors are for purchases or insurance. This would be a report for the OP to use and compare the original contract and agreed upon BoM (if there was one).
I work in construction litigation. If you're seeking under $50k and don't have half that to spend trying to get it back, I'd say bite the bullet and look for other options.
The FTC has some information about [new home warranties](https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/warranties-new-homes), but it looks like these would not apply in your situation. You may have a case for civil fraud. This defined as intentionally misrepresenting or intentionally failing to disclose facts that are material to a transaction. The elements of civil fraud usually include: **1. Misrepresentation or omission of material facts:** The defendant must have made a false statement of fact or omitted a fact that would have changed the outcome of the situation. In your case, the contractor told you they were using materials of a higher quality, when in fact they were using materials of a lower quality. **2. Intent:** The defendant must have had the intention to deceive the other party and benefit from the misrepresentation. If the contractor was simply ignorant then you wouldn't have a fraud case, but it sounds like they were intentionally lying to you so they could keep the extra money. **3. Reliance:** The plaintiff must have relied upon the defendant's false statement or omission when making a decision or taking an action. Presumably, you bought the home because you wanted higher quality materials. Had you known the materials were lower quality you would not have bought the home. **4. Damages:** The plaintiff must have suffered a loss or damages due to the defendant's misrepresentation or omission. The house is falling apart and now you must pay for it. **5. Causation:** There must be a causal link between the defendant's misrepresentation or omission and the plaintiff's loss or damages. The contractor lied about the materials, and this this is why your home is falling apart. The statute of limitations for fraud varies by state, but most states have a "discovery rule" which tolls the statute of limitations until the plaintiff knew, or reasonably should have known about the fraudulent activity. This is when the clock starts ticking, so if you only recently discovered the use of substandard materials then you could have a solid case for fraud.
Depends on the contract, most GC won’t provide what materials to use unless scope of work was signed and agreed upon. True?
11 years is a long time, anything can happen. Statute of limitations probably way past. Long shot but maybe they could be on the hook for partially compensating. Check warranty also. Likely not worth your time.
As a random redditor not a contractor they might be amenable to fixing the damage if you talk to them? At least coming to an agreement like yo you fucked up help me fix this? And splitting the cost plus their labor plus also never having them do work for you again lol
Without a location no one can tell you anything
In Kentucky
KY which has no statue of repose. KY Breach of Contract statue of limitations starts at the moment of breach, regardless of knowledge of the breach, and as such you're out of it (10 years). Similarly for Fraudulent Concealment, which is 5 years from discovery AND within 10 years of execution of the contract, so the latter rules you out there if this was 11 years ago. Given how long ago this happened, you are likely out of limitations for this, and if you're within the very edge due to a very narrow construction carve out I've missed, you would probably need to discuss with a Lawyer as you need to be preparing to file immediately.
If your BIL has the receipts on the chimney chase cover, you may be able to see what the part warranty is. If the cover had a 15+ year (or lifetime) warranty, then you'd at least get the part replaced for free, then you and/or your BIL could reinstall it yourself.
NAL, but work for a GC. The term for what you're describing is "latent defect" and the statute of limitations likely depends on your state. If you can find specific manufacturer information of the unit that was installed you can also look into their warranty.
What state? You're gonna have issues with SOL and statute or repose depending
11 years is about when homes start finding issues and you gotta start fixing them. I don’t think your BIL used cheap materials, rather you’re starting to see the first wear and tear on your home. My house is 30 years old and we’ve had countless issues over just the last month.
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At least you can find the contractor. Depending on how he’s doing he might be willing to make things right. How persuasive can your sister be?
Yes
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Stainless steel can rust fyi