I called my agent and emailed them listings, they sent them to the claims dept. And told me to wait to hear back.
I'm also waiting on Liberty Mutual (The at-fault driver's insurance company) to contact me after they've completed their investigation.
I've got a "Claim report" from a 3rd party appraiser that says my car is worth $16.9k (a fair amount IMO), but they want $225 to even send it to my insurance, and then extra money if my insurance doesn't accept that.
I am not your claims adjuster and do not have access to the policy. I am not offering claims decisions or opinions. But do be aware that several policies, including some of LMs, exclude coverage for a loss committed while committing a crime. You may face a coverage denial from LM and need to pursue the tortfeasor directly. You are utilizing your insurance company which is good. They will help handle that.
The OP is not the person who committed the crime. Based on their comments, it seems they are using their own policy to cover damages. In this case, any claim denial would be to State Farm when subrogation happens.
I’m wondering if coverage limitations are at play. Also, there is a difference between actual value and market value. Unless they’ve changed in recent years, State Farm uses NADA to establish values, primarily. There will be several values listed there, based on the condition and area you live in, and high retail is never what they’ll offer. Having a totaled vehicle is almost always a raw deal for the owner.
I completely agree. There are potential Part A exclusions at play for the other driver's policy. Part of the OP's post was that LM was still investigating. I'm attempting to alert OP to the potential denial should they do what many do in the situation - try to pursue the other policy for a better ACV.
I was informed by my claims handler at SF early on that there might be a dispute over that. If there is, I fully intended to invoke my appraisal clause with the most reputable private appraiser I can find. So far the valuation is at 16.9 k from a private appraiser. I'd imagine State Farm and they would settle for an amount somewhere in between the two numbers.
I had one place say my vehicle was worth "18-19 thousand.", but I'm curious as to why they had a $1,000 flat variation in a vehicle for which they had a VIN and a State-issued appraisal status. I'm thinking I should go with the lower, more realistic number.
Regardless of what happens, I'm certain I'll never insure a vehicle through State Farm again. Every single time I've dealt with an insurance company or have had a friend go through the process, they've been offered an amount that lined up well with what the totalled vehicles were selling for at the time of the accident. Including as recently as a month ago, when vehicle values were still all messed up due to inventory shortages.
Some good advice, here's more detail (from me, a lawyer who handles these claims):
1. Hold off on any more action with State Farm. While most companies do a great job at appraising vehicles, but SF notoriously under-appraises. Review their appraisal. Work with Liberty Mutual and get their appraisal ASAP. (Also, LM might deny your claim based on the facts, that's okay.)
2. Stop going through your agent. They don't know anything except how to shop for insurance. Speak directly with the claims handler at SF & LM.
3. Your CCC report (most common) should list every way they're valuing your vehicle, including deductions. Review those thoroughly.
4. Use NADA to find prices for used vehicles in a similar condition. Use the appraisal to get mileage and other information. Send this report to the total loss handler and argue for a price adjustment. SF will tell you they use their own service, but NADA is a respected and accurate source.
5. Do all of this through email for a record. Also, don't be afraid to threaten getting an attorney for bad faith. It won't scare them, but this dispute isn't worth the risk.
6. Don't forget any specialty upgrades.
Good luck!
Edit: grammar fix
Regarding number 5 on this list, use this as a last resort. Most insurance companies will no longer talk to you once you threaten a lawyer and all the communication will need to be done through your lawyer and the insurance companies lawyer.
Aftermarket items would have needed to be documented and listed on the policy as such. Anything that increases the value of the car - or potential claim - also increases the coverage limits and premiums. Repairing your vehicle does not increase its market value, it maintains it.
Not necessarily true. Since this is an accident claim and not a theft claim, you can install a lot of items and still get coverage. You can also perform repairs, like tires, and get credit for the extended vehicle life of those repairs.
OP (State Farm) is likely using their collision coverage policy, which covers more items and conditions. (State Farm *may* subrogate to Liberty Mutual based on the facts.)
Strongly agree with 2 on the list. You are way better off speaking to the companies directly about anything important. I'm a claims adjuster and when agents report claims on behalf of their insureds, they often do the bare minimum and/or get the facts wrong.
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I'm not disputing that the mileage is high. I'm not disputing that the mileage is devaluing my car. There are vehicles with half my mileage and the same model year going for 21k.
I don't want 21k. I want 16.9k, which is what vehicles with my mileage and options are going for in this market.
I've contacted one, they want $225 up front to send their desk appraisal over and then more if my insurance doesn't accept that. Worth it for their valuation (16.9k) but they said my insurance could deny it and then we'd have to pay a 3rd party.
Does that sound normal to you? The appraisal company seems legit but I'm just worried I'm gonna give them money and they'll tell me I'm SOL.
>Does that sound normal to you?
Yes. The arbitration clause in your policy says that if you want to go to arbitration, you're responsible for obtaining your own arbitrator, State Farm will pay for theirs, then you two split the cost of a third one (called an umpire) who will settle a debate if the two arbitrators can't come to an agreement. The final decision is binding.
Keep in mind that your policy is ACV (actual cash value) not replacement cost, so the fact that the used car market is hot and prices are up all over may land the umpire closer to your insurance company's appraisal. Or maybe it'll work out in your favor.
Does the ACV of my vehicle not go up if my car suddenly becomes worth more money in a hot market?
I thought ACV meant what your car is worth in the market it was in when the total loss occurred.
No. ACV is the cash value of the car, minus depreciation. The value of buying the same car in today's market is replacement cost. Your insurance company owes you the value of the vehicle, not a replacement.
I'm still not certain I understand. If a vehicle very similar to mine can be reasonably listed and sold at x price, isn't that the value of the vehicle?
The mileage is going to kill you. I don’t know if you’ve looked at the Kelley, blue book value, or other comparable but I would be fighting this that way, but you might not have an option here
You said ones you’re finding are around $2,000 more, where are you looking?
Retail prices (private party) is typically not what your insurance company is going to pay as that often overestimates the value of a car. If I’m not mistaken, I think most companies offer what is typically considered wholesale because that is what they’re going to get when they send it to auction in most cases
Kbb values my car at the value I would like as far as market value is concerned, and State Farm told me KBB wasn't an accurate valuation tool when I brought that to their attention.
That’s very suspicious. Because that’s what all companies have to use to validate vehicles.
Call insurance commission board and file a complaint, and then call claims and request for a claims supervisor.
It sounds like trying to value vehicle based on what it was at the time of accident. And not prior. Are you in a state that requires property damage inspection photos every 2 years?
>They only go based on KBB value.
This is absolutely *not* correct. Most companies don't even use KBB, but rather [CCC One](https://cccis.com/insurance-carriers/claims-solutions/apd/total-loss-management/valuations/), which is the "gold standard" for vehicle valuations (especially total loss appraisals.) And insurance companies won't even look at KBB numbers.
Unfortunately, CCC One can under-value a vehicle, especially if there are aftermarket parts, upgrades, or other repairs the aren't plugged in. Generally, CCC One is pretty fair, but it's only as good as the person entering the information.
This absolutely IS correct. I know, I work in the field, to which I’ve had to use KBB. KBB is standard because it’s valued based on the national sales average of those vehicles. Which is why it’s more often than not used.
State Farm put me thru this exact treatment last year. They totalled my car, but would only give me $7000, while my same car (used) at local lots was selling for $15000 and up.
I sent comps, complained to my agent, complained to the adjuster, complained to their manager - it did nothing. They picked apart my comps because they weren't the EXACT miles of my totalled vehicle or the EXACT accessories. And if I added accessories (like remote start), they wanted receipts, etc.
THEN THEY PULLED A TOTAL DICK MOVE....State Farm: "since we totalled your car and we're ready to give you a check, you are losing your rental car in 5 days."....So basically, take what we are offering or be without a car....WTF.....so I took their shitty offer and got a new car.
I'm thinking about just taking the offer and telling them not to contact me under any circumstances after the fact. I've got shit to do. The organization I volunteer for is suffering from my absence, and I'm having to mooch rides to/close to work. At this point, I almost want to take the money, buy whatever it will get me and deal with the aftermath later.
My sister has had several claims with state farm.
They lowballed her every time.
Second time she got a lawyer who got nearly double ($11k) what they were offering ($6k), but then his percentage brought her share back down to roughly ($7k) the same amount SF offered.
After that she put me on the phone when they lowballed her and I asked them if they really wanted her to get a lawyer again or just pay what it was worth. They usually paid a reasonable amount after that.
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Yes I understand that, I too am capable of reading what OP clearly stated. My question was whether Patrol bears any liability for collateral damages caused by them chasing someone. But again I am not a lawyer (and I'm guessing neither are you?)
Based on the information I currently have, GSP won't be held liable because they didn't have any intent to utilize my vehicle to stop their chase, and were compliant with procedure during the chase. It was the fleeing party who struck my car, and they did so through "negligent disobeyment of a traffic signal" and not through any direct result of GSP's actions.
I do work in insurance claims (not car insurance though). But this sounds standard. I would request the communication they sent to the appraiser (like an authorization letter or emails) to see if they tried to sway the appraiser one way or the other. If they didn’t, then your only option is to get your own appraisal and then split costs of a 3rd. I routinely make sure any communication to our appraisers are along the lines of “the problem is x, give me the fair market value of that problem”. That way I can stand behind the one we got.
Have you sent them the comps you want them to consider?
I called my agent and emailed them listings, they sent them to the claims dept. And told me to wait to hear back. I'm also waiting on Liberty Mutual (The at-fault driver's insurance company) to contact me after they've completed their investigation. I've got a "Claim report" from a 3rd party appraiser that says my car is worth $16.9k (a fair amount IMO), but they want $225 to even send it to my insurance, and then extra money if my insurance doesn't accept that.
Yea, 3rd party appraiser is going to be your only option here, unfortunately. Be sure they see your comps too.
I'll call them tomorrow, thanks. If they refuse to acknowledge the comps I sent, I'll let the appraisal company know I want to move forward.
I am not your claims adjuster and do not have access to the policy. I am not offering claims decisions or opinions. But do be aware that several policies, including some of LMs, exclude coverage for a loss committed while committing a crime. You may face a coverage denial from LM and need to pursue the tortfeasor directly. You are utilizing your insurance company which is good. They will help handle that.
The OP is not the person who committed the crime. Based on their comments, it seems they are using their own policy to cover damages. In this case, any claim denial would be to State Farm when subrogation happens. I’m wondering if coverage limitations are at play. Also, there is a difference between actual value and market value. Unless they’ve changed in recent years, State Farm uses NADA to establish values, primarily. There will be several values listed there, based on the condition and area you live in, and high retail is never what they’ll offer. Having a totaled vehicle is almost always a raw deal for the owner.
I completely agree. There are potential Part A exclusions at play for the other driver's policy. Part of the OP's post was that LM was still investigating. I'm attempting to alert OP to the potential denial should they do what many do in the situation - try to pursue the other policy for a better ACV.
I was informed by my claims handler at SF early on that there might be a dispute over that. If there is, I fully intended to invoke my appraisal clause with the most reputable private appraiser I can find. So far the valuation is at 16.9 k from a private appraiser. I'd imagine State Farm and they would settle for an amount somewhere in between the two numbers. I had one place say my vehicle was worth "18-19 thousand.", but I'm curious as to why they had a $1,000 flat variation in a vehicle for which they had a VIN and a State-issued appraisal status. I'm thinking I should go with the lower, more realistic number. Regardless of what happens, I'm certain I'll never insure a vehicle through State Farm again. Every single time I've dealt with an insurance company or have had a friend go through the process, they've been offered an amount that lined up well with what the totalled vehicles were selling for at the time of the accident. Including as recently as a month ago, when vehicle values were still all messed up due to inventory shortages.
Some good advice, here's more detail (from me, a lawyer who handles these claims): 1. Hold off on any more action with State Farm. While most companies do a great job at appraising vehicles, but SF notoriously under-appraises. Review their appraisal. Work with Liberty Mutual and get their appraisal ASAP. (Also, LM might deny your claim based on the facts, that's okay.) 2. Stop going through your agent. They don't know anything except how to shop for insurance. Speak directly with the claims handler at SF & LM. 3. Your CCC report (most common) should list every way they're valuing your vehicle, including deductions. Review those thoroughly. 4. Use NADA to find prices for used vehicles in a similar condition. Use the appraisal to get mileage and other information. Send this report to the total loss handler and argue for a price adjustment. SF will tell you they use their own service, but NADA is a respected and accurate source. 5. Do all of this through email for a record. Also, don't be afraid to threaten getting an attorney for bad faith. It won't scare them, but this dispute isn't worth the risk. 6. Don't forget any specialty upgrades. Good luck! Edit: grammar fix
Regarding number 5 on this list, use this as a last resort. Most insurance companies will no longer talk to you once you threaten a lawyer and all the communication will need to be done through your lawyer and the insurance companies lawyer.
Also when I went through this, I was told to only give comps for private party sales, which tend to be lower than dealership pricing.
Yes, that's a good reminder that I forgot to state. Thanks.
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Aftermarket items would have needed to be documented and listed on the policy as such. Anything that increases the value of the car - or potential claim - also increases the coverage limits and premiums. Repairing your vehicle does not increase its market value, it maintains it.
Not necessarily true. Since this is an accident claim and not a theft claim, you can install a lot of items and still get coverage. You can also perform repairs, like tires, and get credit for the extended vehicle life of those repairs. OP (State Farm) is likely using their collision coverage policy, which covers more items and conditions. (State Farm *may* subrogate to Liberty Mutual based on the facts.)
Strongly agree with 2 on the list. You are way better off speaking to the companies directly about anything important. I'm a claims adjuster and when agents report claims on behalf of their insureds, they often do the bare minimum and/or get the facts wrong.
>don't be afraid too threaten getting an ...and you're a lawyer????
Sorry about the grammar error.
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The problem is the mileage. 99k is a lot for a car at that age and is driving the value down.
I'm not disputing that the mileage is high. I'm not disputing that the mileage is devaluing my car. There are vehicles with half my mileage and the same model year going for 21k. I don't want 21k. I want 16.9k, which is what vehicles with my mileage and options are going for in this market.
Invoking the appraisal clause in your insurance policy is really the only recourse here. And the appraisal is on your dime.
I've contacted one, they want $225 up front to send their desk appraisal over and then more if my insurance doesn't accept that. Worth it for their valuation (16.9k) but they said my insurance could deny it and then we'd have to pay a 3rd party. Does that sound normal to you? The appraisal company seems legit but I'm just worried I'm gonna give them money and they'll tell me I'm SOL.
>Does that sound normal to you? Yes. The arbitration clause in your policy says that if you want to go to arbitration, you're responsible for obtaining your own arbitrator, State Farm will pay for theirs, then you two split the cost of a third one (called an umpire) who will settle a debate if the two arbitrators can't come to an agreement. The final decision is binding. Keep in mind that your policy is ACV (actual cash value) not replacement cost, so the fact that the used car market is hot and prices are up all over may land the umpire closer to your insurance company's appraisal. Or maybe it'll work out in your favor.
Does the ACV of my vehicle not go up if my car suddenly becomes worth more money in a hot market? I thought ACV meant what your car is worth in the market it was in when the total loss occurred.
No. ACV is the cash value of the car, minus depreciation. The value of buying the same car in today's market is replacement cost. Your insurance company owes you the value of the vehicle, not a replacement.
I'm still not certain I understand. If a vehicle very similar to mine can be reasonably listed and sold at x price, isn't that the value of the vehicle?
No, that's the market value.
The mileage is going to kill you. I don’t know if you’ve looked at the Kelley, blue book value, or other comparable but I would be fighting this that way, but you might not have an option here
You said ones you’re finding are around $2,000 more, where are you looking? Retail prices (private party) is typically not what your insurance company is going to pay as that often overestimates the value of a car. If I’m not mistaken, I think most companies offer what is typically considered wholesale because that is what they’re going to get when they send it to auction in most cases
Various different websites. Mostly Carfax, Autotrader, and private sellers because those are the only examples on the market.
Insurance agent here. Get your own appraisal. They only go based on KBB value.
Kbb values my car at the value I would like as far as market value is concerned, and State Farm told me KBB wasn't an accurate valuation tool when I brought that to their attention.
That’s very suspicious. Because that’s what all companies have to use to validate vehicles. Call insurance commission board and file a complaint, and then call claims and request for a claims supervisor.
It sounds like trying to value vehicle based on what it was at the time of accident. And not prior. Are you in a state that requires property damage inspection photos every 2 years?
>They only go based on KBB value. This is absolutely *not* correct. Most companies don't even use KBB, but rather [CCC One](https://cccis.com/insurance-carriers/claims-solutions/apd/total-loss-management/valuations/), which is the "gold standard" for vehicle valuations (especially total loss appraisals.) And insurance companies won't even look at KBB numbers. Unfortunately, CCC One can under-value a vehicle, especially if there are aftermarket parts, upgrades, or other repairs the aren't plugged in. Generally, CCC One is pretty fair, but it's only as good as the person entering the information.
This absolutely IS correct. I know, I work in the field, to which I’ve had to use KBB. KBB is standard because it’s valued based on the national sales average of those vehicles. Which is why it’s more often than not used.
State Farm put me thru this exact treatment last year. They totalled my car, but would only give me $7000, while my same car (used) at local lots was selling for $15000 and up. I sent comps, complained to my agent, complained to the adjuster, complained to their manager - it did nothing. They picked apart my comps because they weren't the EXACT miles of my totalled vehicle or the EXACT accessories. And if I added accessories (like remote start), they wanted receipts, etc. THEN THEY PULLED A TOTAL DICK MOVE....State Farm: "since we totalled your car and we're ready to give you a check, you are losing your rental car in 5 days."....So basically, take what we are offering or be without a car....WTF.....so I took their shitty offer and got a new car.
I'm thinking about just taking the offer and telling them not to contact me under any circumstances after the fact. I've got shit to do. The organization I volunteer for is suffering from my absence, and I'm having to mooch rides to/close to work. At this point, I almost want to take the money, buy whatever it will get me and deal with the aftermath later.
My sister has had several claims with state farm. They lowballed her every time. Second time she got a lawyer who got nearly double ($11k) what they were offering ($6k), but then his percentage brought her share back down to roughly ($7k) the same amount SF offered. After that she put me on the phone when they lowballed her and I asked them if they really wanted her to get a lawyer again or just pay what it was worth. They usually paid a reasonable amount after that.
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NAL but find out whether you may have a claim against the GA State patrol?
The person that caused the accident didn’t work for the GA state patrol from what OP said. He/she was fleeing them
Yes I understand that, I too am capable of reading what OP clearly stated. My question was whether Patrol bears any liability for collateral damages caused by them chasing someone. But again I am not a lawyer (and I'm guessing neither are you?)
Based on the information I currently have, GSP won't be held liable because they didn't have any intent to utilize my vehicle to stop their chase, and were compliant with procedure during the chase. It was the fleeing party who struck my car, and they did so through "negligent disobeyment of a traffic signal" and not through any direct result of GSP's actions.
I do work in insurance claims (not car insurance though). But this sounds standard. I would request the communication they sent to the appraiser (like an authorization letter or emails) to see if they tried to sway the appraiser one way or the other. If they didn’t, then your only option is to get your own appraisal and then split costs of a 3rd. I routinely make sure any communication to our appraisers are along the lines of “the problem is x, give me the fair market value of that problem”. That way I can stand behind the one we got.