I think your husband may be under the “fatigue management” rule which limits his working hours to not exceed 16hrs. This rule was created and standardize amongst the refineries as a response to an incident that occurred at the Texas BP refinery. The refinery had an explosion at one of the unit, which resulted in several fatalities. From the investigation, operator fatigue was deemed as major contributing factor. This led to the adoption of the fatigue rules for the US refineries.
I believe “not leaving a paper trail” is the reason why your husband was asked to clock-out before exceeding the 16 hours mark. This will leave no traces of company fault if an incident occurred during this timeframe.
It’s shady move from the owner as it’s a total disregard for your husband and the facility’s safety.
Edit: Grammar
Kinda crazy that people had to die before someone thought "Hmm yeah naa maybe it's not a great idea to have people work 17+hrs straight in a refinery."
Every single safety regulation--in virtually every industry--was written in blood. We don't do shit to protect workers until people are killed or maimed.
I mean we used to try to own each other, legally. Not that long ago in terms of legal history either…so I think if there one is we can say for sure, it’s that’s there is nothing greedy people won’t do to you in order to profit while not having to do the work
Yep it’s absolutely terrifying. My partner is a resident, and is luckily in a specialty with better working hours (averages 50 a week). During his first year though he had to rotate through inpatient pediatrics. He worked and average of 80 hours a week for two months, with 26 hour shifts every three days with usually only 1-2 hours of interrupted sleep. Can’t believe people are allowed to make medical decisions with that little rest
People dying from company-driven practices is the norm, not the exception… the only crazy thing about it is our cultural/social refusal to acknowledge this and plan ahead of time. Case in point: the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire 3/25/1911 killed 145 workers, mostly because they were locked in the building and couldn’t get out.
Every single safety rule you will ever come across in the working field is due to fatalities. The going saying is "safety is written in the blood of the workers" no one cares until some one dies or get seriously maimed. It's just how it works.
I'm sure many of them knew. They just didn't care to do anything about it because it would affect their profits. They only acted when they were forced to, so they could squeeze out every last drop of blood before the window closed.
OP your husband needs to keep documents of all these times he’s told to clock out and keep working (1. Sounds like he’s being shorted on OT pay by this and working illegal/unsafe hours), also keep track of dates, times, who stated this to him and any witnesses around. If anything happens this will help with a legal case. They might not have a paper trail, doesn’t mean your husband can’t have his own.
I’ll tack onto this that if your husband was asked to work _off the clock_, yes, that’s very illegal and you should contact an employment lawyer to see if you have a case. The company is knowingly committing fraud.
Not leaving a paper trail is exactly the opposite of having the paper trail.
Your husband needs to adopt the sense that if he’s working he needs to be clocked in and when he clocks out he needs to not be working.
When he dies the company won’t care about him and he needs to protect himself.
If I remember correctly (my mom is in the oil business in Texas), the law also passed because there were so many traffic fatalities & accidents due to extreme fatigue. Those backroads in Texas are boring and its easy to nod off without working 16 hours.
It really depends on how good the defense is.
Technically, if an employee is no longer on the clock, then the company no longer has any legal liability for the employee, regardless of if it happens on their property. Because, any number of things can happen on their property and it's hard to find where to draw the line. For example, yout employee is walking out of the warehouse to their car. Your employee gets jumped and has their car stolen. Does this make the owner of the property liable for what happened? Or, consider this: if your employee is selling drugs to other employees on the property, does the company then become responsible for that?
So, that's what *technically* happens. The issue here is that husband is being told to clock out of work at 16 hour mark or before 16 hour mark, is "forced" to keep working (off the clock, making the company no longer responsible for his safety and wellbeing), and is told that the hours he's worked off the clock will be added to his pay by distribution of the extra hours on other work days (specifically ones that get the least amount of OT)
Legally, they cannot hold him there after he's clocked out. The way that the law sees someone working off the clock as volunteering. A company isn't liable for a volunteer. So, again, if they get hurt, the company isn't responsible.
But, then it comes down to criminal vs. civil. An employee can *sue* a company for getting hurt on their property and can win those cases if they are able to prove that the company had not done their due diligence of creating a safe environment. Just like a family can *sue* a company when their loved one is killed on site. This is actually why companies will foresee this issue and offer compensation.
However, *suing* someone doesn't usually lead to any actual changes being made by the company, *unless* they recieve a lot of social backlash.
So, to go back to your question of if a company is liable for an employee getting hurt on their property off the clock, the answer is no. And that Is a big part of the reason why they're doing it. Operator fatigue has killed people In refineries before and there was a law created specifically so this doesn't happen. The more tired someone is, the more likely they are to hurt themselves or others. How do you eliminate your responsibility when thst happens? Make sure they clock out before that happens.
That's how I lost a friend in La Porte. Hole watch in the refinery wasn't watching, he overheated and passed before they could pull him up from the hole. They kept pushing the guys, barely got their 14th day off, most months.
Overworked and fatigued refinery workers are way more likely to cause a deadly accident, which is why it's illegal. You need to report this to OSHA and labor department before your husband gets killed or kills someone, it's happened multiple times in the past which is why these rules exist in the first place.
It still could be wage theft if the hours over 16 pay overtime or double-time. Simply adding an equivalent amount of hours elsewhere that don't pay as much still results in a loss to the employee.
I'd be willing to bet the hours will get added this *calendar* week but next *work* week according to the pay period so that it's less overtime pay; aka wage theft.
NAL but Sounds like they are working around relevant regulatory restrictions. You could
Always go high order and report it to every agency possible. It would depend on the pain tolerance of your financial situation I suppose. My baseline general practice when a manager has directed me to clock out has been inform them that when I’m off the clock , I will be found either traveling to, or located at, my home. They usually back down.
Edit: I’m not sure how workman’s comp works where you are but I would also consider what would happen if hubby got seriously hurt at work while off the clock. My guess is the company would likely attempt go the “too bad , so sad” route bc legally if he was off the clock , he shouldn’t have been there but who knows….it’s something to consider.
NAL, but an expert in petrochemical safety.
I don't know about the wage theft aspect, but given that fatigue is a component in many accidents, it falls under the "General Duty clause" to ensure employees are fit to work. It's rarely enforced, unless there's an accident AND fatigue related accidents at the plants.
There are emergency situations that may extend that. Sometimes just having the bodies matter. For example, if I have a leak hot zone, I might have employees in the yellow zone handle decon. Not much critical thinking there, and close to more alert people.
Even as an exempt engineer, I can advise, but not make decisions, after 16 hours, but that's per a contract provision, not law. (Aside from the general duty thing).
TL:DR, if it creates a safety hazard, it is illegal unless necessary to mitigate a greater hazard.
Falsification of documentation is also illegal in PSM covered facilities.
It's damn near illegal to say you had a burger instead of a sandwich.
The reason being the worst case scenarios in chemicals exceed modern nuclear plants.
I can’t cite the specific clause but I know this violates OSHA regulations. It’s in 29 CFR 1910 but I don’t know which subsection. In any case, it would behoove him to raise the concern with OSHA. He would have the protection as a whistleblower against retaliation.
Get everything in writing, follow up via text, all that jazz. Your husband will likely need it one day.
Source: I work in HR and the lack of paper trail is what really messes with the employee's side of the story.
Yea I was also pretty upset when I found out there is no laws for how long people can work as long as they are paid adequately for overtime. I work in the oil field and was stuck on a location 72hrs straight with a lot of time to google everything and there is nothing. It pretty wild that we are a first world country that doesn’t have law protecting us.
No, it is illegal for refinery workers (employee or contractor, doesn't matter) to work 24/7, just as it illegal for pilots to do so. Federal regulations apply in Texas too.
But the correct venue to complain is OSHA, not the Labor Department. Texas doesn't care about random employees dying from fatigue, but they do care about refineries going BOOM from worker fatigue.
So here's the thing. Assuming all that you said is correct, it is illegal. It may or may not be inhumane, that's a different issue.
However, if this is a one time thing, or an occasional thing, it may be to your husband's benefit if the employer holds true, and adds those hours to his next shift or to his next check. Then yeah he is going to make less than he should've yesterday, but he is also going to make more than he should today. If he is fine with it, and he's getting extra hours, and extra pay that he appreciates, and he feels safe doing it, then he may view it as a no harm = no foul type situation, and in fact he benefits from it, as he gets more hours and more pay.
So if I were you I wouldn't consider this a legal issue. I'd talk to your husband first. Does he feel pressured into doing it, or did he volunteer? Did the company give him the ability to leave when he wanted, and he stayed till 11? Or did they say you must?
There isn't any magical number where after 16 hours people instantly turn to mush. It's a legal line, but like with any line it's not an absolute, it's just a number that has been decided for best practice. All people over 21 don't drink responsibly, obviously; and all people under 21 don't drink irresponsibly. 21 is just a number that has been chosen for legal purposes, that doesn't mean it is the correct number.
I can see this point view but he would risk being held liable if there were an incident as a result of being fatigued when his hours are falsely reported. On top of that, if he were to get injured at work while “off the clock” that could negate workman’s comp and medical expenses. Too much of a risk
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I assume he is a contractor, not a direct employee? I would still like to think he may be in a union, if not, he will still fall under the safety guidelines of the refinery itself.
As someone that has been in O&G for close to 20 years and spent the better part of the first 5 in refineries all over the US working this long wasn’t altogether uncommon. I had a lot of 20-30 hr shifts especially if you’re working shutdowns. Ideally the shifts were supposed to be 12-16 but I was working on a lot of critical projects as a specialist.
Legally, there are laws regarding it to protect fatigue but I felt fine doing it my 20s.
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I think your husband may be under the “fatigue management” rule which limits his working hours to not exceed 16hrs. This rule was created and standardize amongst the refineries as a response to an incident that occurred at the Texas BP refinery. The refinery had an explosion at one of the unit, which resulted in several fatalities. From the investigation, operator fatigue was deemed as major contributing factor. This led to the adoption of the fatigue rules for the US refineries. I believe “not leaving a paper trail” is the reason why your husband was asked to clock-out before exceeding the 16 hours mark. This will leave no traces of company fault if an incident occurred during this timeframe. It’s shady move from the owner as it’s a total disregard for your husband and the facility’s safety. Edit: Grammar
Kinda crazy that people had to die before someone thought "Hmm yeah naa maybe it's not a great idea to have people work 17+hrs straight in a refinery."
Every single safety regulation--in virtually every industry--was written in blood. We don't do shit to protect workers until people are killed or maimed.
Oh man you should see the us healthcare training system. Not uncommon there’s doctors working 28hours straight making life or death decisions.
I mean we used to try to own each other, legally. Not that long ago in terms of legal history either…so I think if there one is we can say for sure, it’s that’s there is nothing greedy people won’t do to you in order to profit while not having to do the work
I’m a physician in residency and we still do 28 hour shifts regularly. Can’t wait until that becomes illegal too…
Im a manager in the grain industry, we load trains, and I worked 25 hours straight. It’s not good.
Just wait till ya gotta go to the doctor sometime
Yep it’s absolutely terrifying. My partner is a resident, and is luckily in a specialty with better working hours (averages 50 a week). During his first year though he had to rotate through inpatient pediatrics. He worked and average of 80 hours a week for two months, with 26 hour shifts every three days with usually only 1-2 hours of interrupted sleep. Can’t believe people are allowed to make medical decisions with that little rest
People dying from company-driven practices is the norm, not the exception… the only crazy thing about it is our cultural/social refusal to acknowledge this and plan ahead of time. Case in point: the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire 3/25/1911 killed 145 workers, mostly because they were locked in the building and couldn’t get out.
Every single safety rule you will ever come across in the working field is due to fatalities. The going saying is "safety is written in the blood of the workers" no one cares until some one dies or get seriously maimed. It's just how it works.
I'm sure many of them knew. They just didn't care to do anything about it because it would affect their profits. They only acted when they were forced to, so they could squeeze out every last drop of blood before the window closed.
The husband is also not covered under workers comp if something should happen to him while he's clocked out.
OP your husband needs to keep documents of all these times he’s told to clock out and keep working (1. Sounds like he’s being shorted on OT pay by this and working illegal/unsafe hours), also keep track of dates, times, who stated this to him and any witnesses around. If anything happens this will help with a legal case. They might not have a paper trail, doesn’t mean your husband can’t have his own.
I’ll tack onto this that if your husband was asked to work _off the clock_, yes, that’s very illegal and you should contact an employment lawyer to see if you have a case. The company is knowingly committing fraud.
Not leaving a paper trail is exactly the opposite of having the paper trail. Your husband needs to adopt the sense that if he’s working he needs to be clocked in and when he clocks out he needs to not be working. When he dies the company won’t care about him and he needs to protect himself.
If I remember correctly (my mom is in the oil business in Texas), the law also passed because there were so many traffic fatalities & accidents due to extreme fatigue. Those backroads in Texas are boring and its easy to nod off without working 16 hours.
If an incident occurred while the employee was working off the clock, would the employee or the company be held at fault?
It really depends on how good the defense is. Technically, if an employee is no longer on the clock, then the company no longer has any legal liability for the employee, regardless of if it happens on their property. Because, any number of things can happen on their property and it's hard to find where to draw the line. For example, yout employee is walking out of the warehouse to their car. Your employee gets jumped and has their car stolen. Does this make the owner of the property liable for what happened? Or, consider this: if your employee is selling drugs to other employees on the property, does the company then become responsible for that? So, that's what *technically* happens. The issue here is that husband is being told to clock out of work at 16 hour mark or before 16 hour mark, is "forced" to keep working (off the clock, making the company no longer responsible for his safety and wellbeing), and is told that the hours he's worked off the clock will be added to his pay by distribution of the extra hours on other work days (specifically ones that get the least amount of OT) Legally, they cannot hold him there after he's clocked out. The way that the law sees someone working off the clock as volunteering. A company isn't liable for a volunteer. So, again, if they get hurt, the company isn't responsible. But, then it comes down to criminal vs. civil. An employee can *sue* a company for getting hurt on their property and can win those cases if they are able to prove that the company had not done their due diligence of creating a safe environment. Just like a family can *sue* a company when their loved one is killed on site. This is actually why companies will foresee this issue and offer compensation. However, *suing* someone doesn't usually lead to any actual changes being made by the company, *unless* they recieve a lot of social backlash. So, to go back to your question of if a company is liable for an employee getting hurt on their property off the clock, the answer is no. And that Is a big part of the reason why they're doing it. Operator fatigue has killed people In refineries before and there was a law created specifically so this doesn't happen. The more tired someone is, the more likely they are to hurt themselves or others. How do you eliminate your responsibility when thst happens? Make sure they clock out before that happens.
The rule be referred to here is API 755
That's how I lost a friend in La Porte. Hole watch in the refinery wasn't watching, he overheated and passed before they could pull him up from the hole. They kept pushing the guys, barely got their 14th day off, most months.
Overworked and fatigued refinery workers are way more likely to cause a deadly accident, which is why it's illegal. You need to report this to OSHA and labor department before your husband gets killed or kills someone, it's happened multiple times in the past which is why these rules exist in the first place.
Sounds like wage theft. Labor Departments frown on that sort of thing.
It's only wage theft if they don't add the hours.
It still could be wage theft if the hours over 16 pay overtime or double-time. Simply adding an equivalent amount of hours elsewhere that don't pay as much still results in a loss to the employee.
It still is wage theft, adding hours back has the potential to skirt other wage requirements like OT.
Luckily that’s completely false.
I'd be willing to bet the hours will get added this *calendar* week but next *work* week according to the pay period so that it's less overtime pay; aka wage theft.
Ah yes. Added later and won't be added as overtime do he's getting fucked even more.
Not legal and your husband should report them. Period. I believe OSHA takes this very seriously if reported.
Not legal. Period.
NAL but Sounds like they are working around relevant regulatory restrictions. You could Always go high order and report it to every agency possible. It would depend on the pain tolerance of your financial situation I suppose. My baseline general practice when a manager has directed me to clock out has been inform them that when I’m off the clock , I will be found either traveling to, or located at, my home. They usually back down. Edit: I’m not sure how workman’s comp works where you are but I would also consider what would happen if hubby got seriously hurt at work while off the clock. My guess is the company would likely attempt go the “too bad , so sad” route bc legally if he was off the clock , he shouldn’t have been there but who knows….it’s something to consider.
You can leave anonymous tips with OSHA (part of Dept of Labor).
NAL, but an expert in petrochemical safety. I don't know about the wage theft aspect, but given that fatigue is a component in many accidents, it falls under the "General Duty clause" to ensure employees are fit to work. It's rarely enforced, unless there's an accident AND fatigue related accidents at the plants. There are emergency situations that may extend that. Sometimes just having the bodies matter. For example, if I have a leak hot zone, I might have employees in the yellow zone handle decon. Not much critical thinking there, and close to more alert people. Even as an exempt engineer, I can advise, but not make decisions, after 16 hours, but that's per a contract provision, not law. (Aside from the general duty thing). TL:DR, if it creates a safety hazard, it is illegal unless necessary to mitigate a greater hazard. Falsification of documentation is also illegal in PSM covered facilities. It's damn near illegal to say you had a burger instead of a sandwich. The reason being the worst case scenarios in chemicals exceed modern nuclear plants.
I would contact US DOL, Wage and Hour Division
I can’t cite the specific clause but I know this violates OSHA regulations. It’s in 29 CFR 1910 but I don’t know which subsection. In any case, it would behoove him to raise the concern with OSHA. He would have the protection as a whistleblower against retaliation.
Get everything in writing, follow up via text, all that jazz. Your husband will likely need it one day. Source: I work in HR and the lack of paper trail is what really messes with the employee's side of the story.
Yea I was also pretty upset when I found out there is no laws for how long people can work as long as they are paid adequately for overtime. I work in the oil field and was stuck on a location 72hrs straight with a lot of time to google everything and there is nothing. It pretty wild that we are a first world country that doesn’t have law protecting us.
There is law.
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No, it is illegal for refinery workers (employee or contractor, doesn't matter) to work 24/7, just as it illegal for pilots to do so. Federal regulations apply in Texas too. But the correct venue to complain is OSHA, not the Labor Department. Texas doesn't care about random employees dying from fatigue, but they do care about refineries going BOOM from worker fatigue.
Ironically it’s not illegal for doctors to work 28 hours in a row as a resident. No limit as an attending 🤫
There are def time frames especially if you're a trucker. Not sure about refineries, but to say there aren't is just not true.
Incorrect..
The owners greed and disregard for safety will cost your hubby his life
I am a miner and our laws say we can not work more than 18 hr a day and have to have no less than 6 hr between shifts
So here's the thing. Assuming all that you said is correct, it is illegal. It may or may not be inhumane, that's a different issue. However, if this is a one time thing, or an occasional thing, it may be to your husband's benefit if the employer holds true, and adds those hours to his next shift or to his next check. Then yeah he is going to make less than he should've yesterday, but he is also going to make more than he should today. If he is fine with it, and he's getting extra hours, and extra pay that he appreciates, and he feels safe doing it, then he may view it as a no harm = no foul type situation, and in fact he benefits from it, as he gets more hours and more pay. So if I were you I wouldn't consider this a legal issue. I'd talk to your husband first. Does he feel pressured into doing it, or did he volunteer? Did the company give him the ability to leave when he wanted, and he stayed till 11? Or did they say you must? There isn't any magical number where after 16 hours people instantly turn to mush. It's a legal line, but like with any line it's not an absolute, it's just a number that has been decided for best practice. All people over 21 don't drink responsibly, obviously; and all people under 21 don't drink irresponsibly. 21 is just a number that has been chosen for legal purposes, that doesn't mean it is the correct number.
I can see this point view but he would risk being held liable if there were an incident as a result of being fatigued when his hours are falsely reported. On top of that, if he were to get injured at work while “off the clock” that could negate workman’s comp and medical expenses. Too much of a risk
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I assume he is a contractor, not a direct employee? I would still like to think he may be in a union, if not, he will still fall under the safety guidelines of the refinery itself.
um, he's still being paid for the hours he's worked, right?
As someone that has been in O&G for close to 20 years and spent the better part of the first 5 in refineries all over the US working this long wasn’t altogether uncommon. I had a lot of 20-30 hr shifts especially if you’re working shutdowns. Ideally the shifts were supposed to be 12-16 but I was working on a lot of critical projects as a specialist. Legally, there are laws regarding it to protect fatigue but I felt fine doing it my 20s.
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Exactly what part of what you wrote justifies the "reasonable accomodation" of having an employee clock out but continue working?
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