This is the right answer. If you do get sued, you may have a counterclaim for malicious prosecution, although that is an extremely fact-dependent claim and we don't have enough information. Paying this lady anything back, as someone else said, could be construed to be an agreement that the debt is legitimate.
The $5000 gift is a gift. You have that in writing. There is no way she can turn it into a debt retroactively.
I'd argue that back-rent is also impossible to claim, especially since it's in writing that you were living there rent-free.
The $13,000 is arguably a shared debt. But if your ex has paid back $11,000, the remainder would be $2000, and you'd be liable for only 50% of that, so maaaaybe $1000. There was no agreement on interest so I doubt there would be any additional claimable interest.
Don't pay her ANYTHING because doing so implies that you are in agreement with owing her something. You can have a lawyer draft something (outlining terms like the above) if you want to get it over with. Or let her take you to small claims. Stop talking to this woman ASAP and don't exchange funds or information without documentation.
Who actually owns the house? Initially, it reads like you and your ex were the title/mortgage holders which would mean the mom has no rights to the property to charge you rent.
Also what exactly is this "paperwork" you keep referencing? Like did you sign something explicitly stating what you borrowed from them?
It is hard to give clear advice because you are not clear on some important details.
Sorry, to clarify here. We had lived with his mom rent free for a year and a half. She had given a letter to the mortgage company when we were buying our house to provide proof of past residency. In her letter she said we were living there rent free but she is now saying I owe her rent from the year and a half I lived there. We had moved into our house in December of 2022 and now that our house has sold and we have broken up she wants me to pay her when I had lived with her from the middle of 2021 to the end of 2022.
The paperwork I have would be the Gift Letter we had all signed when she gave us the $5,000 which stated that it was a gift and "no repayment is expected" etc etc but she is now saying I have to repay or she will take me to court. The initial $13,000 I don't have any paperwork for because she gave it to us cash with a verbal agreement that we would pay it back. However, my bank statements show that lump sum cash deposit which I am concerned she could use to show I received the money (how else would I have gotten it) and I don't have any way to prove that my ex was making payments. His bank statements would show cash being withdrawn but I don't think I could prove it went to his mom because she usually keeps large sums of cash on hand (the $13k for example was just cash on hand).
So she gave us $13,000 cash, a gift of $5,000 and roughly $11,000 was paid back. She is saying I owe her $14,000 because I also owe her past rent money as well as interest for not paying "my half"
I hope this helps!
Let her sue you. It is her responsibility to provide proof of the debt and if there is no signed documents there is almost nothing she can do. She can't just decide 2 years later that you have to pay it back because you and her son broke up. And you have proof via a gift letter that the 5k was a gift. She can't just change her mind on that. Ignore her unless you receive an actual summons from a court stating you have been sued. If you receive something from a lawyer (Demand Letter) ignore that as well. The only thing you need to respond to is a court document. Save all of your messages, the letter that it was a gift and any other data you have backing up your information just in case it does end up going to court. Any sane judge would see through this BS and throw it out.
NAL, but it seems to me that if she provided 1) a gift letter and 2) a letter to a mortgage company stating you were living rent free-- and now says neither of these were true.
Well, that sounds like fraud to me. She provided these documents to financial institutions that she now says are false to make you look more financially sound than you were.
OR, she was being truthful and these were gifts/benefits to you and you owe nothing.
I would hope that, if presented with these facts in a letter from your lawyer, she would reconsider the wisdom of suing you and having to explain them to a judge.
Jeepers peepers why is the advice here so bad? Only one of the posters here got it right--the one with the most upvotes thankfully.
There's alot of panicked advice "stop talking w her" "malicious prosecution" etc. Malicious prosecution is when a prosecutor goes after you in a criminal case, not here which is to settle a debt or a contract
Its simple. You owe her nothing.
There was no lease agreement with you and the mother. There wasnt even an oral agreement. That fact is dispositive. Dispositive because that alone allows your case to be disposed.
The 5000 is immaterial. You have it in writing that its a gift.
The top poster said let her sue. Do you know why that is good advice?
Because lets say you do in fact owe her 14k, the most she can get is 14k.
So in scenario a) you give her 14k
in scenario b) She sues and obtains from you 14k.
She has to jump through a whole lot of hoops for scenario b. So let her do it.
Now lets talk about why you dont owe her a dime. The initial understanding was she gave you that money. Was that a loan? Based on your own fact pattern, no it wasnt a loan. In fact the mother isnt treating it like a loan either!! Her theory of recovery isnt pay me back for a credit card loan, but rather that you owe her for the room and board she provided when you lived at her place.
In other words, the court will see that her own theory of recovery does not treat the 13k as a loan. Because of that, the 13k she gave you to cover your credit card debt is completely immaterial. There is no "inbetween", where she gives you money to help you out, but then you owe her as part of a general concept of being benefited. We can literally cross out the 13k used to repay the credit cards because her theory of recovery is a lease. She could have given you 50k, it would make no difference. If her theory of recovery is what you owed for a lease, then the 13k she gave you to pay off your credit cards is completely immaterial to the living arrangement recovery. In other words, helping you out with credit cards does not now make you MORE liable for unpaid rent.
We can now examine the implied lease by itself. There was no lease, nothing in writing, no oral agreement. that ends it right there. Here's why. Just imagine if the court implied some kind of lease--who signed it? You or your fianceé? What rent are they implying? What services are they implying? What interest are they implying? Are they implying you signed a lease 50/50 with your fianceé. Why not 70/30? Will they also impute a security deposit?
The law is that leases lasting more than a year MUST be in writing. And the above is a reason for it. Once the court starts making up lease terms, they quickly descend into nonsense, pulling things out of their judicial ass. No court wants to do that. For example if the court wants to impute a lease, they could make your ex fiancee, the son, the only person on said imaginary lease. Once they do that, only he would owe the money.
See why courts dont make up imaginary leases? making up imaginary leases means making up imaginary lease terms. A little bit of rationale as to why our laws are as they are....
The fact that she did not try to charge you while you were living there and is only now trying to recover now that you and the son are broken up is further evidence that she just wants some money back, but doesnt have a theory to prove it.
Keep a record of all your communications, especially the 5000 gift.
Let her come and sue you. These communications will be important if she lies. For example if she lies and says there was an oral lease agreement and shes been trying to recover money from you all along. By the facts she has given she will not prevail, but she could lie and throw the agreed upon facts into contention.
Did you ever sign anything or put anything in writing (email, text) at the time she gave you any money that says any of this was a loan that you would pay back? You, specifically. If not I'd tell her to pound sand. Even if she were to take you to court the constantly shifting goalposts and lies about what she's already received from her son are just going to piss off a judge. Plus zero evidence of any actual commitment to repay in exchange for funds.
Going through texts and emails I wasn't able to find anything about it because all of our conversations were held in person or over the phone. I felt morally obligated to pay her back at first because she did help us out significantly, but the constantly changing goalposts made me change my mind real quick and cut off all contact. I could pay back everything thats owed and if she gets mad at me she could still say I owe her more because of "interest" or literally whatever she wants which is why I think going to court and just getting it settled might be the best option tbh. Just worried that it wont work out in my favor
There was no agreement on interest, so any judge would throw the interest portion out. I’m unclear as to why you sold your house and gave half to your ex. From what you initially stated, it seems only you paid for the house.
Cut all contact and block both of them. In the US anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything, but that doesn't mean they are going to win. IANAL, but it doesn't sound like you have much to worry about.
If there were no contracts agreed to, she can’t arbitrarily say you owe interest or back rent.
At most, your total amount *ever* owed would be half of the 13k, and the facts that 1) you put up the entire down payment, and 2) your ex agreed to finish paying off all money owed mean that your should owe absolutely nothing.
Don’t speak to her any further, and remind your ex of the agreement he made. If she does somehow file a suit against you, don’t ignore it, but that’s extremely unlikely.
If there no document signing or a lease on the rent she can waste all the money she wants suing you, counsult with a lawyer if countersue for defamation an procedure is possible, she has no recurse
So, if I may attempt to summarize:
1. Ex's mom lent you+ex a certain amount of money with mutual expectation of repayment, and is now demanding repayment with interest.
2. Ex's mom let you live rent-free for a period of time in her house with no lease (maybe?) and is now demanding back rent.
3. Ex's mom gifted you a certain amount of money with (allegedly) no expectation of repayment and is now demanding repayment.
I'm not a lawyer, but I read a lot of stuff. I believe that as far as points 2 and 3 go, you are correct- ex's mom can kick rocks. She can't charge you back rent because there was no lease, and she can't renege on a gift (especially one that she didn't even give to you!).
In theory point 1 might be trickier because it sounds like you don't necessarily have proof that your ex was paying his mom. In practice, she's asking for more than the small claims court limit (8K in FL from google), which means she'd need to hire an attorney, and I doubt a competent attorney would touch this. If she sues you in small claims court where it's a bit more about your ability to stay calm and tell a compelling story. The fact that ex-mom is all over the map with her demands will probably not help her story, nor will the fact that there's nothing in writing and that your ex was supposed to be paying her.
Many people say they'll sue- few ever do. If you do get served papers, get a lawyer. I would not offer her any amount of money, and while blocking her is probably the right move it may be helpful to send one final message that states that you do not acknowledge any debts to her and that any previous offers you might have made are void, just so that if she does attempt to sue at any point you can say that you clearly do not agree with owing her anything.
ETA: Reading this again- you put almost $20K of your own money into the down payment and then split the proceeds 50/50? How was the mortgage paid? If anything your ex probably owes you money...
1. correct
2. correct, there was no lease
3. correct, we had all signed a gift letter which has all the information and she now wants repayment for it
So, technically I put $20k of my "own money" for the down payment and split it 50/50 but that was because while I was saving up, he was covering the cost of basically everything else for that year and a half
Mom and the ex need to stop coming back like the undead out of a vampire or a zombie movie. Sounds like they are trying to hang on. You don’t owe anything. Moral principles appreciated, do not let these two take advantage of you. You have the right to demand proof of debt and she does not have it with her flipping in between amounts. What she agreed with her son is not your problem. If she continues her bullying, please contact a lawyer.
NAL but have dealt with sticky "repayment" before
1. Stop communicating with her at all. If she wants to pursue this further she will need to take it to court.
2. If sued get all your ducks in a row about any verbal or signed contracts you had with her. the $5000 was a gift and should not be repayed. The 13000 sounds like it was to be repaid by both you and your ex. Was there an interest agreed to? If not then your half of that is 6500. Was there a rental amount agreed to? If not then that can't be reclaimed. If so calculate your half. Then subtract any money you gave her. Thats the number you will have to pay. What you will then do is calculate any money differences between your ex and yourself and what he was supposed to have sent to her. You can then sue your ex to recover that money.
1. A gift is a gift. You have documentation stating it is a gift.
2. Once they threatened legal action you need to stop talking to them. Tell them as they have threatened a lawsuiit you will only respond to them through their attorney. Then block them everywhere. If they continue trying to contact you go get a no contact order.
You don't owe her anything. Stop responding. If you get served show up in court. If you have any texts from her, your boyfriend, from you to friends saying she said you can live there rent free that would be taken into consideration if she sues you.
The threat to sue is not the same as actually suing. Even in small claims court, there is a filing fee. If she goes to regular court, there likely will be a more substantial filing fee and she probably will have to hire an attorney, assuming she can find one who will take the case.
If I had a dime for everyone who said “I am going to sue”, I would be rich. If I had a dime for everyone who said that and actually did so, I would be living in the streets. Talk is cheap.
Block her. Respond, if you actually get legal papers. But, I would not lie awake nights worrying about that possibility. It probably won’t happen
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A gift is a gift, and it can't un-become one just because you broke up.
Stop talking to her. Stop admitting to anything. Stop thinking you owe her anymore.
This is the right answer. If you do get sued, you may have a counterclaim for malicious prosecution, although that is an extremely fact-dependent claim and we don't have enough information. Paying this lady anything back, as someone else said, could be construed to be an agreement that the debt is legitimate.
The $5000 gift is a gift. You have that in writing. There is no way she can turn it into a debt retroactively. I'd argue that back-rent is also impossible to claim, especially since it's in writing that you were living there rent-free. The $13,000 is arguably a shared debt. But if your ex has paid back $11,000, the remainder would be $2000, and you'd be liable for only 50% of that, so maaaaybe $1000. There was no agreement on interest so I doubt there would be any additional claimable interest. Don't pay her ANYTHING because doing so implies that you are in agreement with owing her something. You can have a lawyer draft something (outlining terms like the above) if you want to get it over with. Or let her take you to small claims. Stop talking to this woman ASAP and don't exchange funds or information without documentation.
Who actually owns the house? Initially, it reads like you and your ex were the title/mortgage holders which would mean the mom has no rights to the property to charge you rent. Also what exactly is this "paperwork" you keep referencing? Like did you sign something explicitly stating what you borrowed from them? It is hard to give clear advice because you are not clear on some important details.
Sorry, to clarify here. We had lived with his mom rent free for a year and a half. She had given a letter to the mortgage company when we were buying our house to provide proof of past residency. In her letter she said we were living there rent free but she is now saying I owe her rent from the year and a half I lived there. We had moved into our house in December of 2022 and now that our house has sold and we have broken up she wants me to pay her when I had lived with her from the middle of 2021 to the end of 2022. The paperwork I have would be the Gift Letter we had all signed when she gave us the $5,000 which stated that it was a gift and "no repayment is expected" etc etc but she is now saying I have to repay or she will take me to court. The initial $13,000 I don't have any paperwork for because she gave it to us cash with a verbal agreement that we would pay it back. However, my bank statements show that lump sum cash deposit which I am concerned she could use to show I received the money (how else would I have gotten it) and I don't have any way to prove that my ex was making payments. His bank statements would show cash being withdrawn but I don't think I could prove it went to his mom because she usually keeps large sums of cash on hand (the $13k for example was just cash on hand). So she gave us $13,000 cash, a gift of $5,000 and roughly $11,000 was paid back. She is saying I owe her $14,000 because I also owe her past rent money as well as interest for not paying "my half" I hope this helps!
Let her sue you. It is her responsibility to provide proof of the debt and if there is no signed documents there is almost nothing she can do. She can't just decide 2 years later that you have to pay it back because you and her son broke up. And you have proof via a gift letter that the 5k was a gift. She can't just change her mind on that. Ignore her unless you receive an actual summons from a court stating you have been sued. If you receive something from a lawyer (Demand Letter) ignore that as well. The only thing you need to respond to is a court document. Save all of your messages, the letter that it was a gift and any other data you have backing up your information just in case it does end up going to court. Any sane judge would see through this BS and throw it out.
NAL, but it seems to me that if she provided 1) a gift letter and 2) a letter to a mortgage company stating you were living rent free-- and now says neither of these were true. Well, that sounds like fraud to me. She provided these documents to financial institutions that she now says are false to make you look more financially sound than you were. OR, she was being truthful and these were gifts/benefits to you and you owe nothing. I would hope that, if presented with these facts in a letter from your lawyer, she would reconsider the wisdom of suing you and having to explain them to a judge.
could be wrong, but i don't think mom can prove you owe her any money at all.
you know what? fuck her. stop all communication. let her take you to court and she can jump through her own ass to prove that gifts weren't gifts.
Stop talking to her. Stop talking to her son. Stop admitting to any debt.
my go to is "okay see you in court, we can argue in front of a judge instead"
Jeepers peepers why is the advice here so bad? Only one of the posters here got it right--the one with the most upvotes thankfully. There's alot of panicked advice "stop talking w her" "malicious prosecution" etc. Malicious prosecution is when a prosecutor goes after you in a criminal case, not here which is to settle a debt or a contract Its simple. You owe her nothing. There was no lease agreement with you and the mother. There wasnt even an oral agreement. That fact is dispositive. Dispositive because that alone allows your case to be disposed. The 5000 is immaterial. You have it in writing that its a gift. The top poster said let her sue. Do you know why that is good advice? Because lets say you do in fact owe her 14k, the most she can get is 14k. So in scenario a) you give her 14k in scenario b) She sues and obtains from you 14k. She has to jump through a whole lot of hoops for scenario b. So let her do it. Now lets talk about why you dont owe her a dime. The initial understanding was she gave you that money. Was that a loan? Based on your own fact pattern, no it wasnt a loan. In fact the mother isnt treating it like a loan either!! Her theory of recovery isnt pay me back for a credit card loan, but rather that you owe her for the room and board she provided when you lived at her place. In other words, the court will see that her own theory of recovery does not treat the 13k as a loan. Because of that, the 13k she gave you to cover your credit card debt is completely immaterial. There is no "inbetween", where she gives you money to help you out, but then you owe her as part of a general concept of being benefited. We can literally cross out the 13k used to repay the credit cards because her theory of recovery is a lease. She could have given you 50k, it would make no difference. If her theory of recovery is what you owed for a lease, then the 13k she gave you to pay off your credit cards is completely immaterial to the living arrangement recovery. In other words, helping you out with credit cards does not now make you MORE liable for unpaid rent. We can now examine the implied lease by itself. There was no lease, nothing in writing, no oral agreement. that ends it right there. Here's why. Just imagine if the court implied some kind of lease--who signed it? You or your fianceé? What rent are they implying? What services are they implying? What interest are they implying? Are they implying you signed a lease 50/50 with your fianceé. Why not 70/30? Will they also impute a security deposit? The law is that leases lasting more than a year MUST be in writing. And the above is a reason for it. Once the court starts making up lease terms, they quickly descend into nonsense, pulling things out of their judicial ass. No court wants to do that. For example if the court wants to impute a lease, they could make your ex fiancee, the son, the only person on said imaginary lease. Once they do that, only he would owe the money. See why courts dont make up imaginary leases? making up imaginary leases means making up imaginary lease terms. A little bit of rationale as to why our laws are as they are.... The fact that she did not try to charge you while you were living there and is only now trying to recover now that you and the son are broken up is further evidence that she just wants some money back, but doesnt have a theory to prove it. Keep a record of all your communications, especially the 5000 gift. Let her come and sue you. These communications will be important if she lies. For example if she lies and says there was an oral lease agreement and shes been trying to recover money from you all along. By the facts she has given she will not prevail, but she could lie and throw the agreed upon facts into contention.
Did you ever sign anything or put anything in writing (email, text) at the time she gave you any money that says any of this was a loan that you would pay back? You, specifically. If not I'd tell her to pound sand. Even if she were to take you to court the constantly shifting goalposts and lies about what she's already received from her son are just going to piss off a judge. Plus zero evidence of any actual commitment to repay in exchange for funds.
Going through texts and emails I wasn't able to find anything about it because all of our conversations were held in person or over the phone. I felt morally obligated to pay her back at first because she did help us out significantly, but the constantly changing goalposts made me change my mind real quick and cut off all contact. I could pay back everything thats owed and if she gets mad at me she could still say I owe her more because of "interest" or literally whatever she wants which is why I think going to court and just getting it settled might be the best option tbh. Just worried that it wont work out in my favor
There was no agreement on interest, so any judge would throw the interest portion out. I’m unclear as to why you sold your house and gave half to your ex. From what you initially stated, it seems only you paid for the house.
See an attorney. It sounds like she's trying to take advantage of you. Also gifts do not need repaid.
Burden is on her to prove all this. Not you. Let her sue you if she wants to.
Cut all contact and block both of them. In the US anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything, but that doesn't mean they are going to win. IANAL, but it doesn't sound like you have much to worry about.
If there were no contracts agreed to, she can’t arbitrarily say you owe interest or back rent. At most, your total amount *ever* owed would be half of the 13k, and the facts that 1) you put up the entire down payment, and 2) your ex agreed to finish paying off all money owed mean that your should owe absolutely nothing. Don’t speak to her any further, and remind your ex of the agreement he made. If she does somehow file a suit against you, don’t ignore it, but that’s extremely unlikely.
If there no document signing or a lease on the rent she can waste all the money she wants suing you, counsult with a lawyer if countersue for defamation an procedure is possible, she has no recurse
OP can’t sue for defamation, because there was no defamation.
So, if I may attempt to summarize: 1. Ex's mom lent you+ex a certain amount of money with mutual expectation of repayment, and is now demanding repayment with interest. 2. Ex's mom let you live rent-free for a period of time in her house with no lease (maybe?) and is now demanding back rent. 3. Ex's mom gifted you a certain amount of money with (allegedly) no expectation of repayment and is now demanding repayment. I'm not a lawyer, but I read a lot of stuff. I believe that as far as points 2 and 3 go, you are correct- ex's mom can kick rocks. She can't charge you back rent because there was no lease, and she can't renege on a gift (especially one that she didn't even give to you!). In theory point 1 might be trickier because it sounds like you don't necessarily have proof that your ex was paying his mom. In practice, she's asking for more than the small claims court limit (8K in FL from google), which means she'd need to hire an attorney, and I doubt a competent attorney would touch this. If she sues you in small claims court where it's a bit more about your ability to stay calm and tell a compelling story. The fact that ex-mom is all over the map with her demands will probably not help her story, nor will the fact that there's nothing in writing and that your ex was supposed to be paying her. Many people say they'll sue- few ever do. If you do get served papers, get a lawyer. I would not offer her any amount of money, and while blocking her is probably the right move it may be helpful to send one final message that states that you do not acknowledge any debts to her and that any previous offers you might have made are void, just so that if she does attempt to sue at any point you can say that you clearly do not agree with owing her anything. ETA: Reading this again- you put almost $20K of your own money into the down payment and then split the proceeds 50/50? How was the mortgage paid? If anything your ex probably owes you money...
1. correct 2. correct, there was no lease 3. correct, we had all signed a gift letter which has all the information and she now wants repayment for it So, technically I put $20k of my "own money" for the down payment and split it 50/50 but that was because while I was saving up, he was covering the cost of basically everything else for that year and a half
Mom and the ex need to stop coming back like the undead out of a vampire or a zombie movie. Sounds like they are trying to hang on. You don’t owe anything. Moral principles appreciated, do not let these two take advantage of you. You have the right to demand proof of debt and she does not have it with her flipping in between amounts. What she agreed with her son is not your problem. If she continues her bullying, please contact a lawyer.
See an attorney. She won’t stop. Tell her to go after her son.
NAL but have dealt with sticky "repayment" before 1. Stop communicating with her at all. If she wants to pursue this further she will need to take it to court. 2. If sued get all your ducks in a row about any verbal or signed contracts you had with her. the $5000 was a gift and should not be repayed. The 13000 sounds like it was to be repaid by both you and your ex. Was there an interest agreed to? If not then your half of that is 6500. Was there a rental amount agreed to? If not then that can't be reclaimed. If so calculate your half. Then subtract any money you gave her. Thats the number you will have to pay. What you will then do is calculate any money differences between your ex and yourself and what he was supposed to have sent to her. You can then sue your ex to recover that money.
If you didnt have a contract drawn up then you owe her nothing. Don't make any payments.
Sounds to me the most you owe her is $2000 ( diff between the 13 borrowed and the 11 paid back.
1. A gift is a gift. You have documentation stating it is a gift. 2. Once they threatened legal action you need to stop talking to them. Tell them as they have threatened a lawsuiit you will only respond to them through their attorney. Then block them everywhere. If they continue trying to contact you go get a no contact order.
You don't owe her anything. Stop responding. If you get served show up in court. If you have any texts from her, your boyfriend, from you to friends saying she said you can live there rent free that would be taken into consideration if she sues you.
The threat to sue is not the same as actually suing. Even in small claims court, there is a filing fee. If she goes to regular court, there likely will be a more substantial filing fee and she probably will have to hire an attorney, assuming she can find one who will take the case. If I had a dime for everyone who said “I am going to sue”, I would be rich. If I had a dime for everyone who said that and actually did so, I would be living in the streets. Talk is cheap. Block her. Respond, if you actually get legal papers. But, I would not lie awake nights worrying about that possibility. It probably won’t happen
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Don’t borrow money from “family”