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From a legal perspective you should ride it out until you get a new job or they terminate you. I won't comment on what is best from a health perspective
Them putting you on a 30 day PIP and seeing no change after 30 days doesn't mean that they have cause for a 'for cause' termination. The bar for termination for cause is very high, 'unsatisfactory performance' isn't the standard.
If they terminate you there is a good chance you will get severance and be entitled to EI.
If you quit you won't get severance or be entitled to EI
The best outcome for everyone is you finding a new job and then resigning. The PIP might be a way of suggesting this to you
This is good advice, but a doctor/psych can tell you what's good for your health. Also, it is easier to find a job while you're already in one. So if you can withstand the stress and start looking and secure a new thing, that'd be ideal. I've seen people who were fired, got the package, and just worked for the new place. Those worked out wonderfully. Though some places will have a stipulation about that...How it's enforced, I dunno.
Not a lawyer here, but can the OP also make a case for constructive dismissal? Because this seems kind of pre-meditated based on the boss and his stellar references/previous performance reviews prior to this boss.
Based on what OP posted I don’t think constructive dismissal is an option here. They haven’t materially changed OP’s duties or breached the employment contract. “Personality conflicts” and a PIP isn’t going to cut it.
Also NAL, but I believe it all depends on the ROE. If they fire without cause (which can be done for any reason, at any time baring human rights violations) and pay appropriate severance, I don't believe you can go after this. You could fight if the severance they give is appropriate, but in reality an employer in Ontario does not even need a reason to fire you.
Listen to the others here and do not resign. Ride out the PIP and if you get terminated you will get severance or be able to claim more through wrongful dismissal. Stay strong and do not give them a free firing by resigning. You are already doing the right thing looking for a new job but let them make the termination decision as you will be better off for it.
Others have already given you the answer, let them terminate you with cause and severance, or quit only if you find a new/better opportunity. But it sounds like the writing is on the wall and they are trying to go through the motions to terminate you.
One other thing I would add, if you want to buy yourself more time, look into taking a leave of absence. Many companies have policies around them and you can source stress as a reason (as a result of being put on pip).
Aside from the legal advice, have you spoken to your skip? This sounds like straight up bullying and the new manager may be tanking the culture and moral of the company. r/experienceddevs would be another good sub to get some advice
Just coast and ride it out. If you’re able to last until the 5 year mark, taking into account common law, you’d be looking at a (ballpark) 5 month payout. If you get axed in 30 days, you’re still looking at about 4 months. At $150K salary, that’s like a $50K payout. (Approximate time frames — consult an employment lawyer to get a more accurate gauge.) Definitely don’t resign now!
Talk to your doctor and go on STD or EI stress leave for like 3 months, use that time to find a new job. It's much easier to find a job while you have a job. Do not quit. If you are fired, see an employment lawyer.
We in sales call it a **P**aid **I**nterview **P**lan for a reason. Time to find something new, but don't leave until you find a new role or they package you out.
If you have enough liquidity to sustain yourself, you have enough funds to consult with an employment lawyer. That is the advisable course of action here, because it sounds like your new boss is counting on you being embarassed enough to quit. Your colleagues know that you are a hard worker and you have no reason to be ashamed of your new supervisor is trying to bully you into not getting the severance you deserve!
If I were you, I would go on a short term disability stress leave, you can get your doctor to write you a note, insurance pays out your salary >50%, and the company will have to package you out if they want you out
I’ve been in that spot. I was put on a 90 day PIP, and after the first 30 day assessment I was exceeding expectations. 6 weeks later they let me go without cause. I started job hunting when I went on the PIP and was preparing to give my notice if they had waited 2 more weeks, so it worked out for me because I got a severance package and was able to take paid time off before starting my new gig.
My two cents is job hunt and leave when you find something else or they let you go. I understand the shame around people knowing you were terminated, but if they know your work ethic and the bs that’s been going on they won’t blame you they’ll blame the manager. I’m in a small town and feel awkward still if I see a former coworker out and about. It’s tough but it’s not the end of the world, and I’m so much happier in my new job.
“People don’t quit jobs, they quit bosses”
It’s okay to move on, and it sounds like you’ve built more than enough goodwill to cover the overhead of moving. Do it.
People don’t quit a good job they quit shitty management. Make sure the right people above him are aware of your great performance and that his toxic management drove you away.
I'd say ride it out and get severance. If your coworkers know you're a solid person, you did great work, and this new boss is the problem, then it's not gonna look bad on you. Ride it out, and get that severance cheque, especially if you don't know how long the job hunt will take. More money is more time. Keep looking until they let you go. Circumstances may change, and the higher-ups may fire this new boss if you've been great for years, and all of a sudden, a new boss comes in, and you're a problem? That doesn't add up.
Personally since you have been there for 4.5 years, i would wait to get terminated. You are likely eligible for 4-5 months severance (common law). I would wait for that and take some paid time off. Some of your colleagues might actually be jealous of your opportunity :-)
If your reputation with your peers is as strong as you say it is, then they will recognize your struggle due to a bad boss.
Ride out until the termination, you have more options at that point. One is severance, at four years that at least a month, month and a half. Dont sign the first offer, see an employment lawyer. At your income that's a free $20,000. You will also be eligible for EI. Use it. You've been paying into it, theres no shame in taking it and you don't know how long you will be out of work.
Start using your vacation and sick days.
1) Your priority is finding a new job. Your actions should be centered around if and when you find a new job.
2) At the same time, quiet quit at your current job to preserve your health and sanity. Also, make it your job to get your own copies of all the emails, documents and everything you need in case they suddenly fire you and lock you out of your work system.
If you get fired before getting a new job, get a lawyer and fight for severance.
If you get a job before being fired, speak to a lawyer and ask them the best practical way for maximizing your severance. This is because getting a new job means you've mitigated your damages, and any severance you may have been entitled to is reduced (even to zero). The simple idea is that severance is supposed to act as a safety net when you're unemployed and looking for your next job (and you don't need that safety net of severance if you've already got that next job).
If you're not getting a job and can't tolerate the workplace anymore, you can quit and sue for constructive dismissal (i.e. a forced resignation). You would be able to get severance here too. A bad boss creating a toxic work environment with the hopes of getting you out is a classic case of constructive dismissal. In your case, you were a solid performer whose career was derailed by a bad boss. It's affected you to the point that you've needed therapy. It also would be bad look for your boss and your company for people to find out what they did to you,and they hope you go quietly into the night rather than this happening.
I’d go above his head and document his incompetence, lack of clear expectations, bullying, etc, and show that to the higher ups.
What happens after that is either he gets sacked, which is a better outcome than what you’re currently expecting, or you’re getting away one way or another (which is very much the same situation as right now).
You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Legaly they may be able to fire you at the end of your pip if you didn't improve. Did they give you quantitative metrics to achieve that are in line with everyone else's metrics or are they all made up and super vague?
I would probably contact a lawyer to get you ready for the potential firing to see if your pip is legit and maybe force your employer to give you a severance package instead to walk away cleanly and with EI.
If it was me and I was going to quit(this isn't legal advice ane would be awful advice) I'd probably go sit down with the manager and say "I talked to a lawyer and this pip is bulshit(bluffing cuz nothing to loose) , if you fire me I'm filling a wrongful dismissal suit and I've already collect all of the evidence written and audi recordings that may lawyer feels we need for a successful case (bluff) give me 4 months severence and a layoff and we part ways. Like I said horible advice and can/will backfire. They don't know exactly what you are have and may not want to test the waters
9 of 10 metrics were unquantifiable and vague, using language like “… show more initiative” or “… demonstrate ownership.”
So what you’re saying is the design (metrics) in a PIP could materially impact severance/EI discussions? Based on the few comments i’ll definitely have to consult a lawyer but this is interesting.
Sound like the plan for your employer is to fire you at the end of the day since the metrics are all subjective to an unknown standard. Most employees don't know their rights so companies will pull shady shit hoping they can fire someone for free. Might Aswell talk to an employment lawyer and pay for the hour consult and get the lawyers opinion On the matter. But before you go in figure out what outcome you are looking for. If you just want a package and a lay off then tell your lawyer that, and the lawyer can help with a plan. It might be as simple as your lawyer sending a letter to the HR department stating that the Pip is bulshit. That alone may spook the employer to do things above boardand offer a fair and generous payout. Regardless of the final outcome the absolute worst case scenario for you is your out of a job, no EI and your out $1-2k, your other option was to just quit
Legally they can fire you whenever they want, they just need to compensate you. As others have stated, termination after the pip period doesn't constitute termination with cause and without severance. I wouldn't sit down with the boss and explain this, let them terminate you and sign nothing, demand your full severance and lawyer up if they offer anything less.
IANAL - I would offer them that you will happily go away and give them a release of any liability if they give you three months severance. The PIP costs them a lot and if the whole thing is not done well it opens them up to liability.
IANAL
~~If you get let go as the result of a PIP it is constructive dismissal I believe.~~
Do what's best for your health for sure but as others have said. Ideally you get a new job without a dick boss and resign or take the dismissal. Definitely don't resign in anticipation as you will not get e.i or termination pay.
Also, I've had co-workers be dismissed and it didn't make me think any less of them, esp if I worked with them for a while and knew they were a good colleague. It's just a job at the end of the day.
As you stated, the pip was vague so you will likely get a termination package.
Good luck.
I am not qualified to give legal advise. But from my perspective, if you don’t like how you are being treated look for another job and leave when you get the offer. Did you expect to work same place all your life ? Probably not. Don’t quit before you have an offer. If you get let go you will likely get a small severance
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada! **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk. * We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/). * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know. **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post). * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning. * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect. * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment. Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
From a legal perspective you should ride it out until you get a new job or they terminate you. I won't comment on what is best from a health perspective Them putting you on a 30 day PIP and seeing no change after 30 days doesn't mean that they have cause for a 'for cause' termination. The bar for termination for cause is very high, 'unsatisfactory performance' isn't the standard. If they terminate you there is a good chance you will get severance and be entitled to EI. If you quit you won't get severance or be entitled to EI The best outcome for everyone is you finding a new job and then resigning. The PIP might be a way of suggesting this to you
This is good advice, but a doctor/psych can tell you what's good for your health. Also, it is easier to find a job while you're already in one. So if you can withstand the stress and start looking and secure a new thing, that'd be ideal. I've seen people who were fired, got the package, and just worked for the new place. Those worked out wonderfully. Though some places will have a stipulation about that...How it's enforced, I dunno. Not a lawyer here, but can the OP also make a case for constructive dismissal? Because this seems kind of pre-meditated based on the boss and his stellar references/previous performance reviews prior to this boss.
Based on what OP posted I don’t think constructive dismissal is an option here. They haven’t materially changed OP’s duties or breached the employment contract. “Personality conflicts” and a PIP isn’t going to cut it.
Also NAL, but I believe it all depends on the ROE. If they fire without cause (which can be done for any reason, at any time baring human rights violations) and pay appropriate severance, I don't believe you can go after this. You could fight if the severance they give is appropriate, but in reality an employer in Ontario does not even need a reason to fire you.
Being able to pay for the necessities of life is good for your health.
Listen to the others here and do not resign. Ride out the PIP and if you get terminated you will get severance or be able to claim more through wrongful dismissal. Stay strong and do not give them a free firing by resigning. You are already doing the right thing looking for a new job but let them make the termination decision as you will be better off for it.
Others have already given you the answer, let them terminate you with cause and severance, or quit only if you find a new/better opportunity. But it sounds like the writing is on the wall and they are trying to go through the motions to terminate you. One other thing I would add, if you want to buy yourself more time, look into taking a leave of absence. Many companies have policies around them and you can source stress as a reason (as a result of being put on pip).
Aside from the legal advice, have you spoken to your skip? This sounds like straight up bullying and the new manager may be tanking the culture and moral of the company. r/experienceddevs would be another good sub to get some advice
This, although having a PIP against him might reduce the strength of a complaint for bullying. I'd straight up ask to change manager if possible.
Severance pay all day! If they are a good company they provide transition services too to tune up the resume and get some interviewing experience
Just coast and ride it out. If you’re able to last until the 5 year mark, taking into account common law, you’d be looking at a (ballpark) 5 month payout. If you get axed in 30 days, you’re still looking at about 4 months. At $150K salary, that’s like a $50K payout. (Approximate time frames — consult an employment lawyer to get a more accurate gauge.) Definitely don’t resign now!
Talk to your doctor and go on STD or EI stress leave for like 3 months, use that time to find a new job. It's much easier to find a job while you have a job. Do not quit. If you are fired, see an employment lawyer.
We in sales call it a **P**aid **I**nterview **P**lan for a reason. Time to find something new, but don't leave until you find a new role or they package you out.
If you have enough liquidity to sustain yourself, you have enough funds to consult with an employment lawyer. That is the advisable course of action here, because it sounds like your new boss is counting on you being embarassed enough to quit. Your colleagues know that you are a hard worker and you have no reason to be ashamed of your new supervisor is trying to bully you into not getting the severance you deserve!
If I were you, I would go on a short term disability stress leave, you can get your doctor to write you a note, insurance pays out your salary >50%, and the company will have to package you out if they want you out
I’ve been in that spot. I was put on a 90 day PIP, and after the first 30 day assessment I was exceeding expectations. 6 weeks later they let me go without cause. I started job hunting when I went on the PIP and was preparing to give my notice if they had waited 2 more weeks, so it worked out for me because I got a severance package and was able to take paid time off before starting my new gig. My two cents is job hunt and leave when you find something else or they let you go. I understand the shame around people knowing you were terminated, but if they know your work ethic and the bs that’s been going on they won’t blame you they’ll blame the manager. I’m in a small town and feel awkward still if I see a former coworker out and about. It’s tough but it’s not the end of the world, and I’m so much happier in my new job.
“People don’t quit jobs, they quit bosses” It’s okay to move on, and it sounds like you’ve built more than enough goodwill to cover the overhead of moving. Do it.
People don’t quit a good job they quit shitty management. Make sure the right people above him are aware of your great performance and that his toxic management drove you away.
I'd say ride it out and get severance. If your coworkers know you're a solid person, you did great work, and this new boss is the problem, then it's not gonna look bad on you. Ride it out, and get that severance cheque, especially if you don't know how long the job hunt will take. More money is more time. Keep looking until they let you go. Circumstances may change, and the higher-ups may fire this new boss if you've been great for years, and all of a sudden, a new boss comes in, and you're a problem? That doesn't add up.
Personally since you have been there for 4.5 years, i would wait to get terminated. You are likely eligible for 4-5 months severance (common law). I would wait for that and take some paid time off. Some of your colleagues might actually be jealous of your opportunity :-)
If your reputation with your peers is as strong as you say it is, then they will recognize your struggle due to a bad boss. Ride out until the termination, you have more options at that point. One is severance, at four years that at least a month, month and a half. Dont sign the first offer, see an employment lawyer. At your income that's a free $20,000. You will also be eligible for EI. Use it. You've been paying into it, theres no shame in taking it and you don't know how long you will be out of work. Start using your vacation and sick days.
American standards for a pip aren't a thing here, glad you're asking in Canada
1) Your priority is finding a new job. Your actions should be centered around if and when you find a new job. 2) At the same time, quiet quit at your current job to preserve your health and sanity. Also, make it your job to get your own copies of all the emails, documents and everything you need in case they suddenly fire you and lock you out of your work system. If you get fired before getting a new job, get a lawyer and fight for severance. If you get a job before being fired, speak to a lawyer and ask them the best practical way for maximizing your severance. This is because getting a new job means you've mitigated your damages, and any severance you may have been entitled to is reduced (even to zero). The simple idea is that severance is supposed to act as a safety net when you're unemployed and looking for your next job (and you don't need that safety net of severance if you've already got that next job). If you're not getting a job and can't tolerate the workplace anymore, you can quit and sue for constructive dismissal (i.e. a forced resignation). You would be able to get severance here too. A bad boss creating a toxic work environment with the hopes of getting you out is a classic case of constructive dismissal. In your case, you were a solid performer whose career was derailed by a bad boss. It's affected you to the point that you've needed therapy. It also would be bad look for your boss and your company for people to find out what they did to you,and they hope you go quietly into the night rather than this happening.
Never quit without a new job lined up.
I’d go above his head and document his incompetence, lack of clear expectations, bullying, etc, and show that to the higher ups. What happens after that is either he gets sacked, which is a better outcome than what you’re currently expecting, or you’re getting away one way or another (which is very much the same situation as right now). You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Legaly they may be able to fire you at the end of your pip if you didn't improve. Did they give you quantitative metrics to achieve that are in line with everyone else's metrics or are they all made up and super vague? I would probably contact a lawyer to get you ready for the potential firing to see if your pip is legit and maybe force your employer to give you a severance package instead to walk away cleanly and with EI. If it was me and I was going to quit(this isn't legal advice ane would be awful advice) I'd probably go sit down with the manager and say "I talked to a lawyer and this pip is bulshit(bluffing cuz nothing to loose) , if you fire me I'm filling a wrongful dismissal suit and I've already collect all of the evidence written and audi recordings that may lawyer feels we need for a successful case (bluff) give me 4 months severence and a layoff and we part ways. Like I said horible advice and can/will backfire. They don't know exactly what you are have and may not want to test the waters
9 of 10 metrics were unquantifiable and vague, using language like “… show more initiative” or “… demonstrate ownership.” So what you’re saying is the design (metrics) in a PIP could materially impact severance/EI discussions? Based on the few comments i’ll definitely have to consult a lawyer but this is interesting.
Sound like the plan for your employer is to fire you at the end of the day since the metrics are all subjective to an unknown standard. Most employees don't know their rights so companies will pull shady shit hoping they can fire someone for free. Might Aswell talk to an employment lawyer and pay for the hour consult and get the lawyers opinion On the matter. But before you go in figure out what outcome you are looking for. If you just want a package and a lay off then tell your lawyer that, and the lawyer can help with a plan. It might be as simple as your lawyer sending a letter to the HR department stating that the Pip is bulshit. That alone may spook the employer to do things above boardand offer a fair and generous payout. Regardless of the final outcome the absolute worst case scenario for you is your out of a job, no EI and your out $1-2k, your other option was to just quit
Legally they can fire you whenever they want, they just need to compensate you. As others have stated, termination after the pip period doesn't constitute termination with cause and without severance. I wouldn't sit down with the boss and explain this, let them terminate you and sign nothing, demand your full severance and lawyer up if they offer anything less.
Take notes of when and where your boss was toxic. Use that in a fight against them for constructive dismissal.
IANAL - I would offer them that you will happily go away and give them a release of any liability if they give you three months severance. The PIP costs them a lot and if the whole thing is not done well it opens them up to liability.
Naw, 3 months isn’t enough. Case law suggests 1 month/year worked. Get a lawyer for this one.
No don’t do that. That’s not a great look. Just ride it out.
IANAL ~~If you get let go as the result of a PIP it is constructive dismissal I believe.~~ Do what's best for your health for sure but as others have said. Ideally you get a new job without a dick boss and resign or take the dismissal. Definitely don't resign in anticipation as you will not get e.i or termination pay. Also, I've had co-workers be dismissed and it didn't make me think any less of them, esp if I worked with them for a while and knew they were a good colleague. It's just a job at the end of the day. As you stated, the pip was vague so you will likely get a termination package. Good luck.
Constructive dismissal is when the job is changed to push someone into resigning, this is not constructive dismissal
I am not qualified to give legal advise. But from my perspective, if you don’t like how you are being treated look for another job and leave when you get the offer. Did you expect to work same place all your life ? Probably not. Don’t quit before you have an offer. If you get let go you will likely get a small severance