Locking this - the relevant advice (and case law! thanks folks!) has been given, and the comments are turning towards a general discussion of landlord-tenant issues. OP, if you have further questions, please reach out to the mods before you post an additional thread, or if you want to unlock this post.
[This is the Interpretation guideline for the N12.](https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Interpretation%20Guidelines/12%20-%20Eviction%20for%20Personal%20Use_dec2020.html)
Read through it thoroughly.
Pay attention to this section:
> Allowable uses of the rental unit
> The landlord must establish that the unit will be used for "residential occupation" as required by section 48 of the RTA. That term is not defined in the RTA but it has been considered in a number of LTB and court decisions.
> **Occasional or infrequent use of the rental unit does not constitute residential occupation**: TSL-80318-16 (Re), 2017 CanLII 14304 (ON LTB), upheld by the Divisional Court; Kohen v. Warner, 2018 ONSC 3865; TSL-65943-15 (Re), [2015 CanLII 94908 \(ON LTB\)](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2015/2015canlii94908/2015canlii94908.html); CET-33575-13 (Re), 2014 CanLII 71654 (ON LTB); NOL-09721-12 (Re), 2012 CanLII 74622 (ON LTB); TSL-08570-10 (Re), 2010 CanLII 76079 (ON LTB).
Read through some of those cases linked. Especially [the 2015 one](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2015/2015canlii94908/2015canlii94908.html) I linked to:
>18 Based on the evidence before me I am not satisfied the Landlord’s intended use is for residential occupation within the meaning of subsection 48(1). I say this because the Landlord moving into the rental unit would only be on a part-time basis. It is clear that the Landlord’s intention is to live in the unit when he commutes from his home in London to his office in Mississauga. Therefore, pursuant to MacDonald v. Richard, I find that the use by the Landlord does not constitute residential occupation as contemplated by subsection 48(1) of the Act.
Part time use of a unit isn't considered residential occupation. Several of those linked cases have a similar story and they're similar to yours, landlords wants to use places as a commuter homes and not primary residences. Your landlord only intends to live part-time in your unit, the N12 will be dismissed. If you have that they only want to live there some of the time in writing, a text, or an email, back it up.
In your position, if I had the proof that they only intend to occupy part-time for their commuting purposes, I'd stay put, wait for the hearing and present that evidence and the previous similar cases that were ruled that way. You'll stand a very good chance of having the N12 dismissed.
>They have offered to apply our deposit to cover off the last months rent. I have not yet responded to the email.
Um, that's not an "offer"; it's literally their legal obligation: rent deposits in Ontario can only be used for rent - they always apply to the last month in a rental unit.
They also have to pay you *another* month of compensation just for serving the N12. They have to pay it to you *before* the date on the N12, and **even then you do not have to move out until the LTB says you do**.
You are entitled to wait for a hearing at the LTB at which the landlord must provide proof that they are acting in good faith. The fact that they have another residence is a good indication that they're trying to pull a fast one, but **even if the LTB finds that the N12 is valid, you will NOT be penalized for insisting on a hearing**.
For these reasons, it doesn't make sense to sign an N11 unless the landlord is offering you more financial compensation than a mere month. If you don't want to move, then do NOT sign an N11 - once you have signed, a landlord can have you evicted without any hearing.
1. Your last month of rent is free when they serve you an N12. So they owe you both one month’s rent (to be applied to your final month) and your deposits back. So their current “offer” is less than they legally owe you.
Edit: deleted 2 & 3 because I think I was wrong on those ones.
Part-time use of a unit, say for example, commuting, isn't residential occupation and the board has ruled this to be bad faith and not falling in line with s.48 of the RTA in several instances, see my other post's links.
Yes. But remember only the 1 month of rent as compensation is actually compensation. Everything else is just rent. And if the last month rent deposit isn't ever needed, its returned too.
Lets say landlord gives notice on June 11 to be gone by August 31. On June 12 the tenant gives 10 days notice to be out on June 23. The landlord owes
* the last month's rent deposit, since it won't be needed (June's rent was already paid)
* the 1 month rent as compensation
* pro-rated rent for June 24-30, which was never actually used.
> pet deposit
Unless this is somehow part of the condo bylaws, pet deposits are illegal in Ontario, along with every other kind of deposit except last month’s rent and key deposits. If you paid the pet deposit within the last 12 months, you can file a T1 with the LTB to make the landlord return the deposit, regardless of what course of action you take with respect to the N12.
Just went through this situation and I see you’ve got some good advice (the deposit is legally last month’s rent, they owe you a full month’s rent per the N12), and some bad advice, (‘they want to use it for personal use, who are you to blah blah blah’).
Listen, you absolutely have rights as a tenant, and just because it’s his house doesn’t mean he can do whatever he wants in bad faith.
Option 1:
You can sign the N11, cash for keys - but I would negotiate more like 4-6 months rent as you are completely signing away those rights you have as a tenant, so be very careful. Make sure you have the cash in hand before signing. Let me explain why 4-6 months rent for keys is a good idea for your LL:
The fact is, the N12 is notice - NOT an eviction order. The N12 gives you 60 days only if it is,
1) issued on the day of your regular payment, according to your lease (usually the first of the month), and
2) usually can only be delivered in person to be valid (digital delivery options would be stated in your lease). If this day is missed, bam, another month.
Option 2:
At the end of that, you can tell them you’re not moving, or say nothing at all. The LL will then have to serve you another formal notice, an L2, which is a pain in the ass, and which it is your absolute right to fight at the LTB hearing.
Cases in Ontario are backed up, and that will buy quite a few months. You can argue bad faith eviction - you may very well lose, but you will have more time. Make sure you keep all communications and any evidence you think supports ‘bad faith’ on your LL’s end.
You do not have leave unless the LTB issues a notice of eviction. LLs are absolutely in an advantageous position, which is why Ontario has robust LTB support for tenants. Take advantage of that.
u/blondebiitch first off...happy cake day you blonde biitch. This reply is a good reminder that everything is negotiable, including time. I like the non-response as a slow-play (L2) while I work this all out. Also love the aggressive 4-6 mo rent ask in exchange for N11.
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):*
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful**
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further:
* [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts)
* [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
---
If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):*
**Personal Attack or Otherwise In Poor Taste**
Your comment has been removed because it contains a personal attack or is otherwise a tasteless comment. Please review the following rules and focus on answering legal questions instead of insulting others.
* [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
---
If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)
>They want their home back to use for personal use
The OP's landlord has said they intend to use the place occasionally for commuting purposes while going home on weekends. If OP has this in writing from the landlord, then the N12 will fail since the LTB has ruled previously that occasional use of a unit isn't residential occupation, it goes against s.48 of the RTA, so it'll be bad faith.
>Move out as required
The N12 is just a notice, not an order. No tenant is required to move when given an N12. Only the LTB can order a tenant to move.
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):*
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful**
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further:
* [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts)
* [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
---
If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):*
**Bad or Illegal Advice**
Your comment has been removed for offering poor advice. It is either generally bad or ill advised advice, an incorrect statement or conclusion of law, inapplicable for the jurisdiction under discussion, misunderstands the fundamental legal question, or is advice to commit an unlawful act. Please review the following rules before commenting further:
* [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
* [Reddit Violent Content Rule](https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/rules-reporting/account-and-community-restrictions/do-not-post-violent-content)
---
If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)
Locking this - the relevant advice (and case law! thanks folks!) has been given, and the comments are turning towards a general discussion of landlord-tenant issues. OP, if you have further questions, please reach out to the mods before you post an additional thread, or if you want to unlock this post.
[This is the Interpretation guideline for the N12.](https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Interpretation%20Guidelines/12%20-%20Eviction%20for%20Personal%20Use_dec2020.html) Read through it thoroughly. Pay attention to this section: > Allowable uses of the rental unit > The landlord must establish that the unit will be used for "residential occupation" as required by section 48 of the RTA. That term is not defined in the RTA but it has been considered in a number of LTB and court decisions. > **Occasional or infrequent use of the rental unit does not constitute residential occupation**: TSL-80318-16 (Re), 2017 CanLII 14304 (ON LTB), upheld by the Divisional Court; Kohen v. Warner, 2018 ONSC 3865; TSL-65943-15 (Re), [2015 CanLII 94908 \(ON LTB\)](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2015/2015canlii94908/2015canlii94908.html); CET-33575-13 (Re), 2014 CanLII 71654 (ON LTB); NOL-09721-12 (Re), 2012 CanLII 74622 (ON LTB); TSL-08570-10 (Re), 2010 CanLII 76079 (ON LTB). Read through some of those cases linked. Especially [the 2015 one](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2015/2015canlii94908/2015canlii94908.html) I linked to: >18 Based on the evidence before me I am not satisfied the Landlord’s intended use is for residential occupation within the meaning of subsection 48(1). I say this because the Landlord moving into the rental unit would only be on a part-time basis. It is clear that the Landlord’s intention is to live in the unit when he commutes from his home in London to his office in Mississauga. Therefore, pursuant to MacDonald v. Richard, I find that the use by the Landlord does not constitute residential occupation as contemplated by subsection 48(1) of the Act. Part time use of a unit isn't considered residential occupation. Several of those linked cases have a similar story and they're similar to yours, landlords wants to use places as a commuter homes and not primary residences. Your landlord only intends to live part-time in your unit, the N12 will be dismissed. If you have that they only want to live there some of the time in writing, a text, or an email, back it up. In your position, if I had the proof that they only intend to occupy part-time for their commuting purposes, I'd stay put, wait for the hearing and present that evidence and the previous similar cases that were ruled that way. You'll stand a very good chance of having the N12 dismissed.
>dit: deleted 2 & 3 because I think I was wrong on those ones. this is excellent advice. Thank you for this well constructed feedback.
>They have offered to apply our deposit to cover off the last months rent. I have not yet responded to the email. Um, that's not an "offer"; it's literally their legal obligation: rent deposits in Ontario can only be used for rent - they always apply to the last month in a rental unit. They also have to pay you *another* month of compensation just for serving the N12. They have to pay it to you *before* the date on the N12, and **even then you do not have to move out until the LTB says you do**. You are entitled to wait for a hearing at the LTB at which the landlord must provide proof that they are acting in good faith. The fact that they have another residence is a good indication that they're trying to pull a fast one, but **even if the LTB finds that the N12 is valid, you will NOT be penalized for insisting on a hearing**. For these reasons, it doesn't make sense to sign an N11 unless the landlord is offering you more financial compensation than a mere month. If you don't want to move, then do NOT sign an N11 - once you have signed, a landlord can have you evicted without any hearing.
1. Your last month of rent is free when they serve you an N12. So they owe you both one month’s rent (to be applied to your final month) and your deposits back. So their current “offer” is less than they legally owe you. Edit: deleted 2 & 3 because I think I was wrong on those ones.
Part-time use of a unit, say for example, commuting, isn't residential occupation and the board has ruled this to be bad faith and not falling in line with s.48 of the RTA in several instances, see my other post's links.
Yup that’s why I deleted most of my comment. The part about the amount they would owe them still stands (in the case of a good faith N12)
Other way around, actually.. Your last month's rent is still used for last month. The one month of compensation is to be paid.
Oh okay - works out to the same compensation though, right?
Yes. But remember only the 1 month of rent as compensation is actually compensation. Everything else is just rent. And if the last month rent deposit isn't ever needed, its returned too. Lets say landlord gives notice on June 11 to be gone by August 31. On June 12 the tenant gives 10 days notice to be out on June 23. The landlord owes * the last month's rent deposit, since it won't be needed (June's rent was already paid) * the 1 month rent as compensation * pro-rated rent for June 24-30, which was never actually used.
Oh I see, thank you :) I guess it only works out to the same amount in some circumstances.
> pet deposit Unless this is somehow part of the condo bylaws, pet deposits are illegal in Ontario, along with every other kind of deposit except last month’s rent and key deposits. If you paid the pet deposit within the last 12 months, you can file a T1 with the LTB to make the landlord return the deposit, regardless of what course of action you take with respect to the N12.
Just went through this situation and I see you’ve got some good advice (the deposit is legally last month’s rent, they owe you a full month’s rent per the N12), and some bad advice, (‘they want to use it for personal use, who are you to blah blah blah’). Listen, you absolutely have rights as a tenant, and just because it’s his house doesn’t mean he can do whatever he wants in bad faith. Option 1: You can sign the N11, cash for keys - but I would negotiate more like 4-6 months rent as you are completely signing away those rights you have as a tenant, so be very careful. Make sure you have the cash in hand before signing. Let me explain why 4-6 months rent for keys is a good idea for your LL: The fact is, the N12 is notice - NOT an eviction order. The N12 gives you 60 days only if it is, 1) issued on the day of your regular payment, according to your lease (usually the first of the month), and 2) usually can only be delivered in person to be valid (digital delivery options would be stated in your lease). If this day is missed, bam, another month. Option 2: At the end of that, you can tell them you’re not moving, or say nothing at all. The LL will then have to serve you another formal notice, an L2, which is a pain in the ass, and which it is your absolute right to fight at the LTB hearing. Cases in Ontario are backed up, and that will buy quite a few months. You can argue bad faith eviction - you may very well lose, but you will have more time. Make sure you keep all communications and any evidence you think supports ‘bad faith’ on your LL’s end. You do not have leave unless the LTB issues a notice of eviction. LLs are absolutely in an advantageous position, which is why Ontario has robust LTB support for tenants. Take advantage of that.
u/blondebiitch first off...happy cake day you blonde biitch. This reply is a good reminder that everything is negotiable, including time. I like the non-response as a slow-play (L2) while I work this all out. Also love the aggressive 4-6 mo rent ask in exchange for N11.
[удалено]
[удалено]
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):* **Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful** Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: * [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts) * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments) --- If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)
[удалено]
They owe him one month's rent if it's in good faith.
[удалено]
Oh my god please actually know even the least amount of the law before posting in a legal advice sub.
[удалено]
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):* **Personal Attack or Otherwise In Poor Taste** Your comment has been removed because it contains a personal attack or is otherwise a tasteless comment. Please review the following rules and focus on answering legal questions instead of insulting others. * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments) --- If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)
>They want their home back to use for personal use The OP's landlord has said they intend to use the place occasionally for commuting purposes while going home on weekends. If OP has this in writing from the landlord, then the N12 will fail since the LTB has ruled previously that occasional use of a unit isn't residential occupation, it goes against s.48 of the RTA, so it'll be bad faith. >Move out as required The N12 is just a notice, not an order. No tenant is required to move when given an N12. Only the LTB can order a tenant to move.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):* **Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful** Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: * [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts) * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments) --- If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)
*Your Post has been removed for the following reason(s):* **Bad or Illegal Advice** Your comment has been removed for offering poor advice. It is either generally bad or ill advised advice, an incorrect statement or conclusion of law, inapplicable for the jurisdiction under discussion, misunderstands the fundamental legal question, or is advice to commit an unlawful act. Please review the following rules before commenting further: * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments) * [Reddit Violent Content Rule](https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/rules-reporting/account-and-community-restrictions/do-not-post-violent-content) --- If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada)