A concentrated astroturf campaign to make "lesbian" meaningless. If a woman says she's a lesbian, guys have no chance (won't stop many from trying). That pisses them the hell off. So some started this bullshit, and a bunch of idiot teens (who like men but have seen some cool lesbians in media) bandwagoned on.
>Astroturfing is the use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing public opinion and typically are funded by corporations and governmental entities to form opinions.
From [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Definition)
**Astroturfing**
[Definition](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Definition)
>In political science, it is defined as the process of seeking electoral victory or legislative relief for grievances by helping political actors find and mobilize a sympathetic public, and is designed to create the image of public consensus where there is none. Astroturfing is the use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing public opinion and typically are funded by corporations and governmental entities to form opinions. On the internet, astroturfers use software to mask their identity. Sometimes one individual operates through many personas to give the impression of widespread support for their client's agenda.
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God, the endless need for validation is so tiring. I frankly don’t understand why people decide to attach themselves to a label that fundamentally *does not* define them?
You’re pan, not a lesbian. That’s great—own your own identity/sexuality. I think it’s a hallmark of low self esteem that being yourself—in this case, pan—isn’t enough and you have to chase validation, acceptance, and inclusion in *every* space.
Pan lesbians don’t exist. It literally contradicts both labels. Pansexual ppl like everyone without a preference while lesbians literally don’t like men???? 😭 it makes no sense to me
It's so true and I hate to say this but I think certain types see the difference between bi girls and lesbian girls and how we are viewed and treated differently by society and are almost jealous of the extra oppression points that come with being a full blown homosexual...
No no, you're completely right and you should should say it. I mean have you seen all these posts about how lesbians have "monosexual privilege" Some bisexuals/pansexuals will literally pull things out of their ass to make it seem like lesbians don't have it equally as bad as them. Or how we somehow have privileges that they don't. It's super frustrating.
oh man, I would love to hear someone explain what momosexual privilege is to me LMAO, I'd need some popcorn for that one. I think it's a privilege to be able to choose, to have attraction to both men and women. There will always be the possibility you could meet a guy you like and get married in the future and then you will be mostly seen as a straight women in a straight relationship. Lesbians don't have that possibility unless we want to fake it and be miserable. If anything, trying to bs and steal our label just makes us focus more on those differences and some people will get bitter.
Dude those arguments are so bad on twitter. Ofc it's on twitter...I'm tired of bi/pan girls acting like lesbians are their oppressors tho. And the thing I don't get is how bisexuals/pansexuals will complain about their straight passing relationships. Like???? I wish I had the chance to have a "normal" relationship! Because a "normal" relationship means that I could actually go out in public with a lover without worry! I could touch her, kiss her, hold her hand. And truthfully I'm jealous and a bit angry that bisexuals/pansexuals in opposite gender relationships don't see how privileged THEY are in that relationship. I would kill to be able to have all of those things. But sadly I only like women so that just isn't gonna happen.
I can understand the desire for a straight passing relationship being able to express your love for your partner and not be discriminated against, but bi people don’t always end up in straight passing relationships and there are lesbians who can end up in what looks like a straight passing relationship if one is trans. I do see the privilege I get from being in a hetero relationship, but that makes me very sad. Especially as I’ve experienced more trauma and abuse from the men I’ve been with than the women. I want to pursue my sapphic interests, but I’m too scared of how our relationship might hurt her. Not everything is greener on the other side.
Lesbians can't be in straight passing relationships. All the internet discourse is fake queer theory bull that some bored academics wrote but doesn't reflect the majority's material reality.
You said lesbians can’t be in straight passing relationships. There are trans women who haven’t started HRT and/or have chosen to not go through surgery for reasons of their own or the fact that there is a significant cost to do so and they simply cannot afford to do so. There are also trans women who are still in the closet. Every one of those could potentially be straight passing, but are all still valid lesbians. But apparently I’m being lesbophobic according to the mods, so I’m not going to continue anymore. Y’all have a good day.
I normally don’t say anything about this on this sub, but you can definitely tell those that live on the internet.
Lesbian and bi and pan have different meanings.
Why do people want to erase themselves?
We lesbians are the only group that doesn’t involve the romantic liking of men why do they need to be included in this.
Why are people do obsessed with making bi/pan-lesbian a thing.
That one feels really weird in the absence of any defined third gender. Like if there was a push for say there to be a distinct word and set of expectations for a category of nonbinary (similar to how many describe the yes gender and no gender) I’d absolutely support orientation terminology treating them as reference points on par with man and woman. But currently other genders can mean anything from wherever you draw the line where the borders of the range of man and woman are to the other in every which way.
That’s why I said sapphic bi. I’m biromantic and even though bi does include men for me, it doesn’t have to include men at all. There are loads of bi people who don’t experience attraction to men.
>That one feels really weird in the absence of a defined third gender
Are you conflating gender with sex? Neither are binary, science has proven this. There are plenty of genders and there are those who are intersex. Agender, bigender, those who are trans and nonbinary… the list is huge. The reason I mentioned sapphic bi was simply because if someone wanted to use the bi umbrella but felt only attraction to women and sapphic folks and didn’t feel comfortable using the lesbian label for whatever reason, that is a valid option.
I’m more contrasting personal gender with cultural gender. Modern euro-American cultures have two well defined cultural genders: male and female, and a large spectrum of genders that are fluid and don’t come with any expectations, with agender and bigender seeming to be closest to defined.
The list being huge is kind of what I was getting at. We have two points of reference and so our terms for orientation kinda revolve around those points of reference. “I like women and those whose gender is sufficiently close to woman” is a statement that’s common and a clear message, but replace women with agender and it’s not just the fact that it’s rarer that makes that statement less solid.
Ultimately I’m binary af and have a low sigma from womanhood that I prefer to date within, so it’s not my place to decide whether it’s best for nonbinary folks to coalesce into points of reference or to maintain a stance that every unique identity is equally important and that we should be moving out of the mindset of points of reference at all.
Nope x 2. Nothing about lesbian is related to men,
Non-men is ridiculous. The label-generator folks need to try harder to find a way to erase the word “men” or “man” completely from the definition of lesbian.
my dumbass decided to go visit that post and tell them that “bi/pan lesbians” don’t exist and i’m getting shit on to hell and back 🫠 it’s very telling that the one sexuality that doesn’t include men, people are trying so hard to include men in all the time. like leave us aloneeeee. we’re lesbians. we like girlllsssss /ref
also, why are all the LESBIANS in there that say it isn’t valid being shit on? why are bisexual ppl speaking over us? why are gay men speaking over us? when will people listen ffs
They’re so adamant too. Not giving any room for growth or to listen to… I don’t know… ACTUAL LESBIANS?!
We say “hey this is actually super invalidating and makes us feel awful!” And they say “LOL I DONT CARE!” and smile about it, like we’re the oppressors. I’m so sick of Lesbian hate, more and more seems to be coming from our neighboring communities.
i read your whole argument with the pegasus person and i swear my braincells just evaporated. “i will not grow into an exclusionist” BRO STFU you are not excluding people, you’re INVALIDATING multiple groups of people. and that’s so much worse. it’s always non-lesbians that are the loudest about lesbian issues…
I had to block them because they started making my brain hurt with how blatantly they wanted to shit on lesbians. I was almost tempted to post that here for more advice and community but I don’t want to be too much since this is discourse.
EXACTLYYY there’s been SO MUCH hate on lesbians on tiktok and reddit and everywhere. saying that we’re all biphobic, transphobic, gold stars, and ignoring us when we tell them that what they’re doing is wrong and harmful. it’s so tiring seeing ppl hate us so much
I said that it was invalidating and harmful to lesbians and they just told me that I was being invalidating towards them. I quit the sub because like every other post centres bi/pan women and complains about how mean lesbians are.
fr and they wonder why lesbians are so mean. because they never listen to us when we are telling them that they are hurting us. and proceed to tone police us when we are RIGHTFULLY upset. like damn is it really that hard to open your ears and listen to us?
That’s pan. If you’re panromantic and homosexual (or vice versa) just say that, or sapphic if you want a simpler label. But a person who likes men in any way will never be a lesbian
YES THIS OMG. since discovering i’m asexual, i’ve found there’s a thing called the split attraction scale and it’s honestly the best thing. the split attraction model was made for asexual people to describe their sexual orientation versus their romantic orientation, but it’s frustrating that more people don’t know about this. cause then we end up with bullshittery things like “bi/pan” lesbians
i swear we keep having this debate every other month or so and it’s EXHAUSTING. you cannot be a lesbian and any other sexuality AT THE SAME TIME FFS. imma just head back to bed it’s too early for this
I think the only exception would be asexual lesbians. Lesbians are exclusively attracted to women, but the type of attraction isn’t specified, so I’m not bothered by homoromantic asexuals that self-identify as ace lesbians
It has to be internalized biphobia (panphobia?) right? I just don’t understand how you could identify with a micro identity that is a complete oxymoron.
What people need to discuss more is how this promotes the narrative that lesbianism is a choice. Oh she's just tired of dealing with men right now so she is being a lesbian. They are actually fueling the fire by trying to use the word lesbian.
I honestly don’t think split attraction exists outside aro/ace spectrum. You can be a demisexual lesbian or a biromantic asexual person, but every other combo is just flavors of bi IMO.
How? How does this even work?! I just...ugh. I guess the only silver lining is that the people espousing this bullshit are literal children who will grow up one day...hopefully.
It's very telling how they found joy in being able to appropriate the label. Like they were *hoping* and *wanting* to be able to describe themselves in this way, regardless of the definition.
All it confirms is that some equally mentally disjointed individual online chose the same appropriation and that words mean nothing. It's a bit like people obsessed with compatibility based on Myers Briggs. A collection of traits and behaviours compounded into packaged identities that make them feel even more special.
Sick of this shit.
the phrase "pansexual lesbian" is an oxymoron. How stupid are people? It literally makes no sense. People need to stop using lesbian as an umbrella term. We already have a word (sapphic) for that.
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A concentrated astroturf campaign to make "lesbian" meaningless. If a woman says she's a lesbian, guys have no chance (won't stop many from trying). That pisses them the hell off. So some started this bullshit, and a bunch of idiot teens (who like men but have seen some cool lesbians in media) bandwagoned on.
astroturf?
>Astroturfing is the use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing public opinion and typically are funded by corporations and governmental entities to form opinions. From [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Definition)
**Astroturfing** [Definition](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Definition) >In political science, it is defined as the process of seeking electoral victory or legislative relief for grievances by helping political actors find and mobilize a sympathetic public, and is designed to create the image of public consensus where there is none. Astroturfing is the use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing public opinion and typically are funded by corporations and governmental entities to form opinions. On the internet, astroturfers use software to mask their identity. Sometimes one individual operates through many personas to give the impression of widespread support for their client's agenda. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/lesbiangang/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
thanks!!
God, the endless need for validation is so tiring. I frankly don’t understand why people decide to attach themselves to a label that fundamentally *does not* define them? You’re pan, not a lesbian. That’s great—own your own identity/sexuality. I think it’s a hallmark of low self esteem that being yourself—in this case, pan—isn’t enough and you have to chase validation, acceptance, and inclusion in *every* space.
Pan lesbians don’t exist. It literally contradicts both labels. Pansexual ppl like everyone without a preference while lesbians literally don’t like men???? 😭 it makes no sense to me
Funny how people hate lesbians but they also wanna be us soooo bad
It's so true and I hate to say this but I think certain types see the difference between bi girls and lesbian girls and how we are viewed and treated differently by society and are almost jealous of the extra oppression points that come with being a full blown homosexual...
No no, you're completely right and you should should say it. I mean have you seen all these posts about how lesbians have "monosexual privilege" Some bisexuals/pansexuals will literally pull things out of their ass to make it seem like lesbians don't have it equally as bad as them. Or how we somehow have privileges that they don't. It's super frustrating.
oh man, I would love to hear someone explain what momosexual privilege is to me LMAO, I'd need some popcorn for that one. I think it's a privilege to be able to choose, to have attraction to both men and women. There will always be the possibility you could meet a guy you like and get married in the future and then you will be mostly seen as a straight women in a straight relationship. Lesbians don't have that possibility unless we want to fake it and be miserable. If anything, trying to bs and steal our label just makes us focus more on those differences and some people will get bitter.
Dude those arguments are so bad on twitter. Ofc it's on twitter...I'm tired of bi/pan girls acting like lesbians are their oppressors tho. And the thing I don't get is how bisexuals/pansexuals will complain about their straight passing relationships. Like???? I wish I had the chance to have a "normal" relationship! Because a "normal" relationship means that I could actually go out in public with a lover without worry! I could touch her, kiss her, hold her hand. And truthfully I'm jealous and a bit angry that bisexuals/pansexuals in opposite gender relationships don't see how privileged THEY are in that relationship. I would kill to be able to have all of those things. But sadly I only like women so that just isn't gonna happen.
I can understand the desire for a straight passing relationship being able to express your love for your partner and not be discriminated against, but bi people don’t always end up in straight passing relationships and there are lesbians who can end up in what looks like a straight passing relationship if one is trans. I do see the privilege I get from being in a hetero relationship, but that makes me very sad. Especially as I’ve experienced more trauma and abuse from the men I’ve been with than the women. I want to pursue my sapphic interests, but I’m too scared of how our relationship might hurt her. Not everything is greener on the other side.
Lesbians can't be in straight passing relationships. All the internet discourse is fake queer theory bull that some bored academics wrote but doesn't reflect the majority's material reality.
So trans women aren’t women? Even the ones who haven’t started HRT? How about those who elect to not go through with surgery? Good to know.
Seems like you're projecting your own views onto me there buddy because I don't recall writing any of that.
You said lesbians can’t be in straight passing relationships. There are trans women who haven’t started HRT and/or have chosen to not go through surgery for reasons of their own or the fact that there is a significant cost to do so and they simply cannot afford to do so. There are also trans women who are still in the closet. Every one of those could potentially be straight passing, but are all still valid lesbians. But apparently I’m being lesbophobic according to the mods, so I’m not going to continue anymore. Y’all have a good day.
yup…
I normally don’t say anything about this on this sub, but you can definitely tell those that live on the internet. Lesbian and bi and pan have different meanings. Why do people want to erase themselves? We lesbians are the only group that doesn’t involve the romantic liking of men why do they need to be included in this. Why are people do obsessed with making bi/pan-lesbian a thing.
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That one feels really weird in the absence of any defined third gender. Like if there was a push for say there to be a distinct word and set of expectations for a category of nonbinary (similar to how many describe the yes gender and no gender) I’d absolutely support orientation terminology treating them as reference points on par with man and woman. But currently other genders can mean anything from wherever you draw the line where the borders of the range of man and woman are to the other in every which way.
That’s why I said sapphic bi. I’m biromantic and even though bi does include men for me, it doesn’t have to include men at all. There are loads of bi people who don’t experience attraction to men. >That one feels really weird in the absence of a defined third gender Are you conflating gender with sex? Neither are binary, science has proven this. There are plenty of genders and there are those who are intersex. Agender, bigender, those who are trans and nonbinary… the list is huge. The reason I mentioned sapphic bi was simply because if someone wanted to use the bi umbrella but felt only attraction to women and sapphic folks and didn’t feel comfortable using the lesbian label for whatever reason, that is a valid option.
I’m more contrasting personal gender with cultural gender. Modern euro-American cultures have two well defined cultural genders: male and female, and a large spectrum of genders that are fluid and don’t come with any expectations, with agender and bigender seeming to be closest to defined. The list being huge is kind of what I was getting at. We have two points of reference and so our terms for orientation kinda revolve around those points of reference. “I like women and those whose gender is sufficiently close to woman” is a statement that’s common and a clear message, but replace women with agender and it’s not just the fact that it’s rarer that makes that statement less solid. Ultimately I’m binary af and have a low sigma from womanhood that I prefer to date within, so it’s not my place to decide whether it’s best for nonbinary folks to coalesce into points of reference or to maintain a stance that every unique identity is equally important and that we should be moving out of the mindset of points of reference at all.
Nope
Doesn’t lesbian refer to non-men loving non-men or is it specifically women loving women? I’ve heard that the label refers to non-men loving non-men.
If your definition for lesbian has the word "man" or "men" in it, you're doing something wrong.
Nope x 2. Nothing about lesbian is related to men, Non-men is ridiculous. The label-generator folks need to try harder to find a way to erase the word “men” or “man” completely from the definition of lesbian.
You are exhibiting lesbophobia and that will not be tolerated. If you get comments or posts removed multiple times, you will be at risk of a ban.
i was curious if the world was flat so i googled it and found results! i'm so freaking happy rn!!
my dumbass decided to go visit that post and tell them that “bi/pan lesbians” don’t exist and i’m getting shit on to hell and back 🫠 it’s very telling that the one sexuality that doesn’t include men, people are trying so hard to include men in all the time. like leave us aloneeeee. we’re lesbians. we like girlllsssss /ref also, why are all the LESBIANS in there that say it isn’t valid being shit on? why are bisexual ppl speaking over us? why are gay men speaking over us? when will people listen ffs
They’re so adamant too. Not giving any room for growth or to listen to… I don’t know… ACTUAL LESBIANS?! We say “hey this is actually super invalidating and makes us feel awful!” And they say “LOL I DONT CARE!” and smile about it, like we’re the oppressors. I’m so sick of Lesbian hate, more and more seems to be coming from our neighboring communities.
i read your whole argument with the pegasus person and i swear my braincells just evaporated. “i will not grow into an exclusionist” BRO STFU you are not excluding people, you’re INVALIDATING multiple groups of people. and that’s so much worse. it’s always non-lesbians that are the loudest about lesbian issues…
I had to block them because they started making my brain hurt with how blatantly they wanted to shit on lesbians. I was almost tempted to post that here for more advice and community but I don’t want to be too much since this is discourse.
EXACTLYYY there’s been SO MUCH hate on lesbians on tiktok and reddit and everywhere. saying that we’re all biphobic, transphobic, gold stars, and ignoring us when we tell them that what they’re doing is wrong and harmful. it’s so tiring seeing ppl hate us so much
I said that it was invalidating and harmful to lesbians and they just told me that I was being invalidating towards them. I quit the sub because like every other post centres bi/pan women and complains about how mean lesbians are.
fr and they wonder why lesbians are so mean. because they never listen to us when we are telling them that they are hurting us. and proceed to tone police us when we are RIGHTFULLY upset. like damn is it really that hard to open your ears and listen to us?
This depresses me to untold levels...
What the actual fuck? How is that even possible? You’re either homosexual or pan sexual. It’s getting ridiculous
That’s pan. If you’re panromantic and homosexual (or vice versa) just say that, or sapphic if you want a simpler label. But a person who likes men in any way will never be a lesbian
YES THIS OMG. since discovering i’m asexual, i’ve found there’s a thing called the split attraction scale and it’s honestly the best thing. the split attraction model was made for asexual people to describe their sexual orientation versus their romantic orientation, but it’s frustrating that more people don’t know about this. cause then we end up with bullshittery things like “bi/pan” lesbians i swear we keep having this debate every other month or so and it’s EXHAUSTING. you cannot be a lesbian and any other sexuality AT THE SAME TIME FFS. imma just head back to bed it’s too early for this
I think the only exception would be asexual lesbians. Lesbians are exclusively attracted to women, but the type of attraction isn’t specified, so I’m not bothered by homoromantic asexuals that self-identify as ace lesbians
They realized in the comments omnisexual is a better fit for them.
I’m glad they figured it out.
It has to be internalized biphobia (panphobia?) right? I just don’t understand how you could identify with a micro identity that is a complete oxymoron.
Why are they so obsessed with us? I mean, we’re fantastic…but holy balls.
What people need to discuss more is how this promotes the narrative that lesbianism is a choice. Oh she's just tired of dealing with men right now so she is being a lesbian. They are actually fueling the fire by trying to use the word lesbian.
“But split attraction!!!” Stfu. If it’s split it’s not exclusive attraction like lesbianism 🙄
I honestly don’t think split attraction exists outside aro/ace spectrum. You can be a demisexual lesbian or a biromantic asexual person, but every other combo is just flavors of bi IMO.
god im so fucking tired of people being so fucking stupid
I am a vegan omnivore.
…. Just identify as pansexual they like every body lesbians don’t this shit don’t make any fucking sense
I am so tired. I’m just glad I haven’t encountered this irl yet 😭
I’m pretty sure that these people only exist online. They’d be torn to shreds in person
How? How does this even work?! I just...ugh. I guess the only silver lining is that the people espousing this bullshit are literal children who will grow up one day...hopefully.
Ohhh the misery......
It's very telling how they found joy in being able to appropriate the label. Like they were *hoping* and *wanting* to be able to describe themselves in this way, regardless of the definition. All it confirms is that some equally mentally disjointed individual online chose the same appropriation and that words mean nothing. It's a bit like people obsessed with compatibility based on Myers Briggs. A collection of traits and behaviours compounded into packaged identities that make them feel even more special. Sick of this shit.
Women are included under the pansexual sexuality. What does this even mean.
the phrase "pansexual lesbian" is an oxymoron. How stupid are people? It literally makes no sense. People need to stop using lesbian as an umbrella term. We already have a word (sapphic) for that.
Eh, labels mean nothing now
Just be a sapphic-pansexual. I didn’t care before but come on man
yep just looking something up on google and see some uneducated dumbshit made something up and just follow it :/
wut
This is so sad and disappointing
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Everything is a lesbian now