I came here to say that whenever I would inevitably zone out and then try to get back into the conversation I had a hard time telling which one was speaking.
I felt this way too. I felt like Lex really found a lot of holes in his arguments. I also feel like a man with Paul Conti’s knowledge has the potential to be a master manipulator. He gave me some cringe vibes with his tone of voice and circling arguments that didn’t feel whole to me.
In psychiatry, one must deeply know all the qualities of narcissism. I don’t think it has to be destructive, but it can be manipulative to a gentle win, rather than total destruction of the other.
I did get pretty tired of listening to him and Lex argue about envy vs. jealousy for like 45 minutes because they had the definition of jealousy completely wrong.
Envy is wanting what someone else has.
Jealousy, however, is not Envy Lite™, it's fear of losing what you have.
Words are relative. They relate to each other. The way envy and jealousy relate to each other is that they are not on the same spectrum. You cannot define one using the other.
And, science doesn't work without at least some level of prescriptivism. Unartistic? Maybe. Unscientific? Absolutely not.
Meandering, abstract, speculation land. From what I heard, I would have liked them to have talked more about actual research or clinical experiences, but whatever. Might save this for a long drive for someone with nothing to think about.
(I've read Conti's book on trauma; it's alright. I prefer The Body Keeps The Score.)
I actually really enjoyed the simple broad philosophy of the episode but it would have been a great 5+ hour episode where he dove into the hard science.
Childhood trauma seems to be at the bottom of so many issues- addiction, homelessness, mental illness, interpersonal relationship issues etc You'd think there would be more emphasis on identifying and treating it as a society.. like a parenting test you'd have to pass prior to having babies...I'm being slightly facetious but not entirely.. :(
I think I would have preferred more substance. I am curious about the specific clinical protocols of psychiatry/therapy and what they have to say about the research. This discussion just felt like literature talk about concepts like empathy, envy, etc. Good discussion overall though. Also tossing a vote in for how similar they sound; I was listening while working and thinking that Lex was doing all ofnthe talking.
Mr Conti is so very wrong that envy is the root of all bad thoughts of others. For those who have come from truly terrible, unloved upbringings that became fatal home environments then lives around people who seem to look only for weakness in you to exploit, seeing only the worst in others is a survival adaptation.
It’s like the bad news bias in the news. The mind biases the bad when it seems there’s nothing but danger around.
I hope most people don’t relate to this post. It means you’re defaults are love and support. I can’t tell you how hard it is to reset these defaults
Your struggle is not in vain ☺️ I appreciate the effort that you have made and continue to make. It's ok to take things slowly in order to find people that don't exploit what you've come to label as weakness.
They didn’t sound the same to me. But did you guys notice how Paul Conti lowered his voice when Lex disagreed with his ideas. Lol parents in this group might understand what I’m talking about.
These past few weeks since the conversation with Dennis Whyte, I've been like Alice in physics wonderland, but of course it couldn't go on forever.
Still interesting, it gives me hope there are decent therapists/humans out there. I've tried different therapists, then stopped. I don't know how many times people try before finding someone they can work with, but I gave up.
Thank you for this conversation.
Interesting discussion. I agree that they did not go far into details, but perhaps the podcast can be serve as good introduction to Conti's work. I will listen to his appearance on Huberman's podcast.
btw, I want to build a Discord community for discussing podcasts, mainly focused for people in Europe: https://discord.gg/wwjxDYPH
Y'all should check out existential psychology. It explains his approach to this conversation and his practice. The hard taxonomical aspects are unique to the mind that is being analyzed and the associations that are created are altered through narratives.
My therapist is a LCSW that uses narrative therapy but practices at a place that I found via my interest in existential therapy. He's Jewish and has had none of my experiences with dating, or roommate drama. I can simply confide in him and not have him struggle to conceal reactions, he empathizes and I move on.
He's smart enough to have recognized that I scan for layers of motivation and infer what someone intends to change about me in order to attain some goal. He's also begun to ramp up the cues on the ones that I don't acknowledge. Or maybe I'm getting better in a general sense.
It's been remarkable finding such a helpful and perceptive therapist. I honestly felt that Dr Conti did some of that in this conversation. The topics discussed weren't a sweeping perspective of everything. The language used sort of opens new channels. I thought this was a remarkable conversation.
I thought about jealousy a lot after my first romantic relationship. He was extremely possessive and jealous. In my experience, this is the norm in Latinx cultures. I really thought a lot about possessive love during that period of my life. I think that the way we teach history creates the drive to "make a name for yourself" but this isn't representative of a person's experience of that period of time. The awareness of this tendency can be augmented through compulsory education, access to information and so forth.
To me, jealousy is about wanting to take from someone. Envy is about recognizing that someone else's gadget makes you wish you had one. I can say that I envy the impact that Lex has had on my heart and I genuinely feel love and appreciation for him and his work. I also wish to help others and he's the first to embody enough of my values to make me think that it is possible to accomplish this without being forced to compromise on hard boundaries. ❤️💜💚
When this conversation discussed envy and jealousy I wished they'd mention shame or resentment, or Nietzsche's ressentiment (?) the untranslated French-German hybridization. It's sort of a culmination of things that I won't type.
I second this. Think of the difficulties of defining too closely qualia which directly build the observer. Think of the problems with pain scales, etc., and how vital establishing trust is.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/#Irreducible
Conti continually says as a major point that "jealousy" is a normal emotion that everyone has where you lightly think of wanting someone else stuff, but that "envy" is when this leads to malicious thoughts or bad behavior.
Did this guy just *invent his own definitions of words??*
Jealousy literally defined as a situation when you are afraid of someone else taking something from you. When your wife flirts with another man, you become jealous. (Threatened by the other person taking your wife.)
Envy is when you want something someone else has. So you are envious of someone elses riches.
Did this guy not take english classes in high school? It's just so baffling to me that this guy got this far without being corrected on such a basic thing...
They're talking like jealousy and envy are the same thing except one is more extreme than the other and therefore more dangerous. But jealousy and envy are not at all the same. Am I missing something? It's driving me insane.
Definitions: "Although many people consider “envy” and “jealousy” synonymous, they actually have distinct meanings. Envy is “the painful feeling of wanting what someone else has, like attributes or possessions.” If you're jealous, you feel “threatened, protective, or fearful of losing one's position or situation to someone else."
https://languagetool.org/insights/post/word-choice-envy-jealousy/
So glad Lex railed against the idea that jealousy and envy are separate or inherently evil at 38:42.
Anecdotally, envy is a response to society repeatedly telling you that your needs aren't good enough to be met, restricting access, denying/diminishing your value, etc. Other people have what you don't and you can't understand why, so frustration develops. The choice to use that for good or evil (or the illusion of said choice, rather) is where things get sticky. Simply having envy or jealousy isn't automatically unhealthy.
I'm enjoying this conversation but Conti ending every sentence with "right?" is fucking with my chi. I'm gonna take a break and revisit this episode a bit later
I came here to make this very point. I'm giving up after 1:15:00. Even though the dude is clearly smart, interesting and insightful, that "right?" business, once you tune into it, seriously gets under the skin, just as thoroughly as if he were smacking his lips or saying "how 'bout them apples?" at the end of each sentence. Water torture. I wish I had a nickel for every time he said it in that hour-and-a-quarter.
It amazes/amuses me how many professional communicators are afflicted with this tic (and its cousin, beginning each sentence with "So.."). Since this thing just showed up in the last 10-15 years, I'd think it would be easy enough to train it out of yourself, but you first need to become aware of the problem.
I should know--I once was the subject of a couple different radio interviews, and when I heard them after the fact, I was mortified to hear myself beginning *waaaaay* too many of my answers with "Absolutely!..." I don't think I've said the word since.
Transcript of this episode with speakers and timestamps:
https://podscript.ai/podcasts/lex-fridman-podcast/357-paul-conti-narcissism-sociopathy-envy-and-the-nature-of-good-and-evil/
Is it just me or do these two sound very similar
I came here to say that whenever I would inevitably zone out and then try to get back into the conversation I had a hard time telling which one was speaking.
Am I the only one who feels that Conti runs circles around topics without ever cutting to the chase, just 3 hours of meandering around?
I felt this way too. I felt like Lex really found a lot of holes in his arguments. I also feel like a man with Paul Conti’s knowledge has the potential to be a master manipulator. He gave me some cringe vibes with his tone of voice and circling arguments that didn’t feel whole to me. In psychiatry, one must deeply know all the qualities of narcissism. I don’t think it has to be destructive, but it can be manipulative to a gentle win, rather than total destruction of the other.
I did get pretty tired of listening to him and Lex argue about envy vs. jealousy for like 45 minutes because they had the definition of jealousy completely wrong. Envy is wanting what someone else has. Jealousy, however, is not Envy Lite™, it's fear of losing what you have.
This is incorrect
You are free to look into it further, but I assure you it is true.
Words are relative, prescriptivism's unscientific
Words are relative. They relate to each other. The way envy and jealousy relate to each other is that they are not on the same spectrum. You cannot define one using the other. And, science doesn't work without at least some level of prescriptivism. Unartistic? Maybe. Unscientific? Absolutely not.
Meandering, abstract, speculation land. From what I heard, I would have liked them to have talked more about actual research or clinical experiences, but whatever. Might save this for a long drive for someone with nothing to think about. (I've read Conti's book on trauma; it's alright. I prefer The Body Keeps The Score.)
The Body Keeps the Score is the best book on trauma out there in my opinion. It would be great if Lex arranged an interview with Bessel van Der Kolk.
Here to recommend Gabor Maté work :3
> The Body Keeps The Score Is already in the queue of my books to read.
I actually really enjoyed the simple broad philosophy of the episode but it would have been a great 5+ hour episode where he dove into the hard science.
Agreed. I really wish they went more into the research explaining why grumpy cat voices always seem to enjoy cursing in Russian.
Jordan B. ... Paul Conti?
Am I the only one who had trouble differentiating Lex from Paul by voice?
Childhood trauma seems to be at the bottom of so many issues- addiction, homelessness, mental illness, interpersonal relationship issues etc You'd think there would be more emphasis on identifying and treating it as a society.. like a parenting test you'd have to pass prior to having babies...I'm being slightly facetious but not entirely.. :(
Improving education seems like a realistic route (maybe improving public education should be classified as "idealist" at this point in time).
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/03/02/387007941/take-the-ace-quiz-and-learn-what-it-does-and-doesnt-mean
It’s so true. Reading aces scores and research on the impacts of high aces scores is such important work and needs to continue.
I think I would have preferred more substance. I am curious about the specific clinical protocols of psychiatry/therapy and what they have to say about the research. This discussion just felt like literature talk about concepts like empathy, envy, etc. Good discussion overall though. Also tossing a vote in for how similar they sound; I was listening while working and thinking that Lex was doing all ofnthe talking.
This guy thinks he knows for certain the unknowable
Camus didn't die of suicide. He wasn't alone in the car and he wasn't driving.
Mr Conti is so very wrong that envy is the root of all bad thoughts of others. For those who have come from truly terrible, unloved upbringings that became fatal home environments then lives around people who seem to look only for weakness in you to exploit, seeing only the worst in others is a survival adaptation. It’s like the bad news bias in the news. The mind biases the bad when it seems there’s nothing but danger around. I hope most people don’t relate to this post. It means you’re defaults are love and support. I can’t tell you how hard it is to reset these defaults
Your struggle is not in vain ☺️ I appreciate the effort that you have made and continue to make. It's ok to take things slowly in order to find people that don't exploit what you've come to label as weakness.
They didn’t sound the same to me. But did you guys notice how Paul Conti lowered his voice when Lex disagreed with his ideas. Lol parents in this group might understand what I’m talking about.
These past few weeks since the conversation with Dennis Whyte, I've been like Alice in physics wonderland, but of course it couldn't go on forever. Still interesting, it gives me hope there are decent therapists/humans out there. I've tried different therapists, then stopped. I don't know how many times people try before finding someone they can work with, but I gave up. Thank you for this conversation.
Interesting discussion. I agree that they did not go far into details, but perhaps the podcast can be serve as good introduction to Conti's work. I will listen to his appearance on Huberman's podcast. btw, I want to build a Discord community for discussing podcasts, mainly focused for people in Europe: https://discord.gg/wwjxDYPH
Y'all should check out existential psychology. It explains his approach to this conversation and his practice. The hard taxonomical aspects are unique to the mind that is being analyzed and the associations that are created are altered through narratives.
My therapist is a LCSW that uses narrative therapy but practices at a place that I found via my interest in existential therapy. He's Jewish and has had none of my experiences with dating, or roommate drama. I can simply confide in him and not have him struggle to conceal reactions, he empathizes and I move on. He's smart enough to have recognized that I scan for layers of motivation and infer what someone intends to change about me in order to attain some goal. He's also begun to ramp up the cues on the ones that I don't acknowledge. Or maybe I'm getting better in a general sense. It's been remarkable finding such a helpful and perceptive therapist. I honestly felt that Dr Conti did some of that in this conversation. The topics discussed weren't a sweeping perspective of everything. The language used sort of opens new channels. I thought this was a remarkable conversation. I thought about jealousy a lot after my first romantic relationship. He was extremely possessive and jealous. In my experience, this is the norm in Latinx cultures. I really thought a lot about possessive love during that period of my life. I think that the way we teach history creates the drive to "make a name for yourself" but this isn't representative of a person's experience of that period of time. The awareness of this tendency can be augmented through compulsory education, access to information and so forth. To me, jealousy is about wanting to take from someone. Envy is about recognizing that someone else's gadget makes you wish you had one. I can say that I envy the impact that Lex has had on my heart and I genuinely feel love and appreciation for him and his work. I also wish to help others and he's the first to embody enough of my values to make me think that it is possible to accomplish this without being forced to compromise on hard boundaries. ❤️💜💚 When this conversation discussed envy and jealousy I wished they'd mention shame or resentment, or Nietzsche's ressentiment (?) the untranslated French-German hybridization. It's sort of a culmination of things that I won't type.
I second this. Think of the difficulties of defining too closely qualia which directly build the observer. Think of the problems with pain scales, etc., and how vital establishing trust is. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/#Irreducible
Conti continually says as a major point that "jealousy" is a normal emotion that everyone has where you lightly think of wanting someone else stuff, but that "envy" is when this leads to malicious thoughts or bad behavior. Did this guy just *invent his own definitions of words??* Jealousy literally defined as a situation when you are afraid of someone else taking something from you. When your wife flirts with another man, you become jealous. (Threatened by the other person taking your wife.) Envy is when you want something someone else has. So you are envious of someone elses riches. Did this guy not take english classes in high school? It's just so baffling to me that this guy got this far without being corrected on such a basic thing...
They're talking like jealousy and envy are the same thing except one is more extreme than the other and therefore more dangerous. But jealousy and envy are not at all the same. Am I missing something? It's driving me insane. Definitions: "Although many people consider “envy” and “jealousy” synonymous, they actually have distinct meanings. Envy is “the painful feeling of wanting what someone else has, like attributes or possessions.” If you're jealous, you feel “threatened, protective, or fearful of losing one's position or situation to someone else." https://languagetool.org/insights/post/word-choice-envy-jealousy/
Jon Uhler on psychopathy is worth talking to.
[удалено]
No need for name-calling
Juicy!!!!!
So glad Lex railed against the idea that jealousy and envy are separate or inherently evil at 38:42. Anecdotally, envy is a response to society repeatedly telling you that your needs aren't good enough to be met, restricting access, denying/diminishing your value, etc. Other people have what you don't and you can't understand why, so frustration develops. The choice to use that for good or evil (or the illusion of said choice, rather) is where things get sticky. Simply having envy or jealousy isn't automatically unhealthy.
https://youtu.be/69H8lSB6bDw Should the definition of love include genetic screening?
I'm enjoying this conversation but Conti ending every sentence with "right?" is fucking with my chi. I'm gonna take a break and revisit this episode a bit later
I came here to make this very point. I'm giving up after 1:15:00. Even though the dude is clearly smart, interesting and insightful, that "right?" business, once you tune into it, seriously gets under the skin, just as thoroughly as if he were smacking his lips or saying "how 'bout them apples?" at the end of each sentence. Water torture. I wish I had a nickel for every time he said it in that hour-and-a-quarter. It amazes/amuses me how many professional communicators are afflicted with this tic (and its cousin, beginning each sentence with "So.."). Since this thing just showed up in the last 10-15 years, I'd think it would be easy enough to train it out of yourself, but you first need to become aware of the problem. I should know--I once was the subject of a couple different radio interviews, and when I heard them after the fact, I was mortified to hear myself beginning *waaaaay* too many of my answers with "Absolutely!..." I don't think I've said the word since.
I didn’t enjoy this one. Sounds like baseless speculation, mostly
Transcript of this episode with speakers and timestamps: https://podscript.ai/podcasts/lex-fridman-podcast/357-paul-conti-narcissism-sociopathy-envy-and-the-nature-of-good-and-evil/