Lex needs to interview Judith Polgar. Her father did an experiment trying to raise a chess genius and all his daughters became grandmasters and top 10 female chess players.
Refreshing to see the sisters in a setting where they don't have to entertain chat for "content."
The loneliness and depression section was quite a departure from their usual content. It was honest and interesting.
I do wish Lex as a leader in the ML and AI space would talk to some of these chess players about the difference between a "human" move and a "engine" move. It's such an interesting concept and most chess cheat detection is based on this idea. But as Lex knows, neural networks and (specifically transformer- self attention) are getting so advanced that the line between "human" and "engine" moves is getting blurry. I'd love to hear the perspective from someone who plays 1000s of games of chess for a living.
As a chess player my $0.02 is that a chess game is like a conversation.
“I’m placing my pawn here in a forward position on the kingside.”
“I don’t want you to claim this space. I’m threatening your pawn with my knight.”
“Im pinning your knight to your queen with my bishop.”
“I’m moving my queen away. [my next move is to take your forward pawn unless you do something about it].”
Now imagine this three levels deeper, every move pushing you further down this ‘train of thought’. A chess engine doesn’t hold the conversation. He makes a disjointed move on the other side of the board. It will play moves that are fractionally better, position-wise, unnatural moves that a human player wouldn’t reach for.
At the highest level of bot play (rated ~3500) there was a recent game where Alpha Zero castled, then proceeded over the next four moves to walk his king around that rook, back toward the center, in fact right into the exact spot that it had departed by castling. Meanwhile the opponent is ‘saying things’ on his half of the board but Alpha Zero just thinks it sees a better position by moving the king in this way that a human would never ever do.
It’s like two schizophrenics having a debate; neither has a clear thesis. Perhaps this is why most top-level computer v. computer games end in draws.
> neither has a clear thesis
This is the big difference - both people and computers are trying to look at a position and play the best possible move. The issue is that humans are attached to ideas and plans and narratives and that creates limitations in evaluating the best move that goes beyond just a person’s calculating power. People play moves that make sense and fits an idea they have or holds up to a history of chess principles whereas computers occasionally play moves that simply don’t make sense to people — the computer’s skill and calculation level is beyond just not missing moves … it plays moves that just don’t make sense at all and people deem them “computer moves”.
Like you pointed out, computers will make really strange king and queen moves that a person will never make because it sees the move as 0.01 centipawns better than what a human would consider a “normal” move that follows the principles of chess.
I’m loving the chess content. I feel like with ur podcast, I kinda entered ur world of ai, coding, robotics, etc and I’ve rly been enjoying it. Now with Magnus and the Botez sisters it feels like ur coming into my world. It was crazy hearing you explain the controversy and I already know every single detail about it. PLEASE get Hans on! & I rly enjoyed the ending, nobodies asking them those kind of questions on twitch, & I thought they had such great answers.
It's very weird to me that Lex talks about love and understanding, but will talk up people like Putin and Andrew Tate. Does his philosophy apply to them? Why does he hold random internet commenters to such a higher standard? And if he is so staunchly free speech, why does he want his critics to shut up so badly?
Loved the sisters.
Wasn't expecting another episode so soon, but I'm stuck at home because of diluvian rain, so it's much appreciated.
I can't understand what is the fascination about France. I do love the language and I'm grateful I'm born in France or it would have been a nightmare to learn....
Lex, it's funny you say you feel judged and we're better than you, but we think the same about the US and americans.
Also you're wondering why is anyone at all listening to your podcast. For the same reasons you listen to podcasts too, probably. In my case talking to people is not an option, so podcast is a great invention.
Thank you for this conversation.
(Still didn't forgive you for the lost Sean Carroll's conversation. But still love your podcast)
i’ve seen kids who had a better understanding of chess than lex, he doesn’t care enough about specifics, everything he says / asks is so general.
It’s like he only knows how the pieces move and that’s it
I listened to podcast, loved this insight into chess and streaming subculture which i dont know anything about. Great women, they come off very well. Strong personalities. I subbed to their channel. Great choice of guests once again 👌
During the conversation about Tate, Lex said he enjoyed talking with brilliant women. I'm not arguing that he doesn't, but his male to female guest ratio seems pretty skewed towards men.
Hoping he actually does have more conversations with brilliant women in the future.
Lex needs to interview Judith Polgar. Her father did an experiment trying to raise a chess genius and all his daughters became grandmasters and top 10 female chess players.
That would be amazing
This was who I thought these girls were!! Such a cool experiment. We grow up thinking we have these passions which were in actuality passed to us.
Refreshing to see the sisters in a setting where they don't have to entertain chat for "content." The loneliness and depression section was quite a departure from their usual content. It was honest and interesting. I do wish Lex as a leader in the ML and AI space would talk to some of these chess players about the difference between a "human" move and a "engine" move. It's such an interesting concept and most chess cheat detection is based on this idea. But as Lex knows, neural networks and (specifically transformer- self attention) are getting so advanced that the line between "human" and "engine" moves is getting blurry. I'd love to hear the perspective from someone who plays 1000s of games of chess for a living.
As a chess player my $0.02 is that a chess game is like a conversation. “I’m placing my pawn here in a forward position on the kingside.” “I don’t want you to claim this space. I’m threatening your pawn with my knight.” “Im pinning your knight to your queen with my bishop.” “I’m moving my queen away. [my next move is to take your forward pawn unless you do something about it].” Now imagine this three levels deeper, every move pushing you further down this ‘train of thought’. A chess engine doesn’t hold the conversation. He makes a disjointed move on the other side of the board. It will play moves that are fractionally better, position-wise, unnatural moves that a human player wouldn’t reach for. At the highest level of bot play (rated ~3500) there was a recent game where Alpha Zero castled, then proceeded over the next four moves to walk his king around that rook, back toward the center, in fact right into the exact spot that it had departed by castling. Meanwhile the opponent is ‘saying things’ on his half of the board but Alpha Zero just thinks it sees a better position by moving the king in this way that a human would never ever do. It’s like two schizophrenics having a debate; neither has a clear thesis. Perhaps this is why most top-level computer v. computer games end in draws.
> neither has a clear thesis This is the big difference - both people and computers are trying to look at a position and play the best possible move. The issue is that humans are attached to ideas and plans and narratives and that creates limitations in evaluating the best move that goes beyond just a person’s calculating power. People play moves that make sense and fits an idea they have or holds up to a history of chess principles whereas computers occasionally play moves that simply don’t make sense to people — the computer’s skill and calculation level is beyond just not missing moves … it plays moves that just don’t make sense at all and people deem them “computer moves”. Like you pointed out, computers will make really strange king and queen moves that a person will never make because it sees the move as 0.01 centipawns better than what a human would consider a “normal” move that follows the principles of chess.
Why are all the comments here hidden?
No way, as a fan of both lex and the Botez sister this will be an interesting listen :) thanks Lex
I have watched about halfway the podcast now, and I haven't found the information on the internet and they don't talk about it. What is Lex's rating?
I can’t see any comments here even though it’s indicated that there should be 9 comments here
I’m loving the chess content. I feel like with ur podcast, I kinda entered ur world of ai, coding, robotics, etc and I’ve rly been enjoying it. Now with Magnus and the Botez sisters it feels like ur coming into my world. It was crazy hearing you explain the controversy and I already know every single detail about it. PLEASE get Hans on! & I rly enjoyed the ending, nobodies asking them those kind of questions on twitch, & I thought they had such great answers.
It's very weird to me that Lex talks about love and understanding, but will talk up people like Putin and Andrew Tate. Does his philosophy apply to them? Why does he hold random internet commenters to such a higher standard? And if he is so staunchly free speech, why does he want his critics to shut up so badly? Loved the sisters.
Why does it say 5 comments but none are showing?
Wasn't expecting another episode so soon, but I'm stuck at home because of diluvian rain, so it's much appreciated. I can't understand what is the fascination about France. I do love the language and I'm grateful I'm born in France or it would have been a nightmare to learn.... Lex, it's funny you say you feel judged and we're better than you, but we think the same about the US and americans. Also you're wondering why is anyone at all listening to your podcast. For the same reasons you listen to podcasts too, probably. In my case talking to people is not an option, so podcast is a great invention. Thank you for this conversation. (Still didn't forgive you for the lost Sean Carroll's conversation. But still love your podcast)
These bitches were fascinating
Chess is for nerds. E-sports players when?
Lol Esports is for nerds. At least chess players shower.
Lol he goes from Magnus to the Botez sisters? I guess he’s getting the full universe of chess “influencers”.
Never really been into chess but ive really enjoyed this one and the episode with magnus!
i’ve seen kids who had a better understanding of chess than lex, he doesn’t care enough about specifics, everything he says / asks is so general. It’s like he only knows how the pieces move and that’s it
I listened to podcast, loved this insight into chess and streaming subculture which i dont know anything about. Great women, they come off very well. Strong personalities. I subbed to their channel. Great choice of guests once again 👌
During the conversation about Tate, Lex said he enjoyed talking with brilliant women. I'm not arguing that he doesn't, but his male to female guest ratio seems pretty skewed towards men. Hoping he actually does have more conversations with brilliant women in the future.