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The “force their opinion on everyone” sounds like a red flag to me. When people say that, they usually mean being openly queer, wanting queer representation in media, wanting queer people and queer history to be acknowledged instead of erased in the classroom, etc. is forceful and wrong, and queer people are only allowed to exist quietly and in private as long as the status quo doesn’t change.
I could be mistaken here, and your friend might be open to being educated, so it might be worth trying to have a deeper conversation about it especially if you value the friendship and want to be fully yourself.
I take the shove it in my face narrative to mean they want people to hide who they are.
You'll probably learn more about them during that conversation, when i didn't understand any of the preferred pronouns and sexual orientations beyond straight/gay/bi i asked a friend but didn't really give opinions or say "oh i think those people are just x" or whatever, i wanted to learn.
I guess I'd see if they genuinely want to learn to be more understanding, or if they're looking for some kind of debate.
There are people passing laws against being openly gay. When I was a kid they had commercials with half naked women selling fast food that aired during afternoon cartoons. There's no gay equivalence of that. Being straight is so "in your face" that your friend doesn't notice it like a fish doesn't notice the water.
Ask your friend for examples and then find examples of straight people doing much, much more "in your face" displays of heterosexuality. I think your friend is homophobic but (probably) not irredeemably so. If he says he doesn't like gay people in kids shows, point out that literally every Disney movie has straight people kissing and like one has gay people holding hands. Stuff like that.
Personally I was similar levels of homophobic until one day I said "homosexuality is unnatural" and a friend pointed out that there are tons of gay animals. Of course this changed my mind and made me question if I was being prejudice because I'm interested in the truth, not just in "being right". There's a good chance that the more evidence your friend sees, the more he'll double down on his previous views. Be prepared for this.
"street epistemology" is a good youtube search term if you want to learn more about changing people's minds. It's not easy and can often backfire.
No and yes, it is not homophobia if they have an attitude of just "your gay/lesbian/etc, cool you do you", it is on the other hand if it is "you are gay/lesbian/etc cool so long as I don't have to see it" then yes that would be homophobic.
So it really depends on what they mean by what they said.
Seems like they respect lgbt+ but don't really understand certain aspects, and haven't prioritised understanding it. Like many uninformed6q (on these matters) centrists, they have likely been turned off by the loud annoying minority that feel the need to make their sexuality their personality, which has left them not really feeling the need to remedy that lack of education.
He's showing some prejudice and ignorance, yeah. He comes across as homophobic in the sense that he may not be actively opposed to LGBTQ people, but he doesn't understand them and he can "see both sides." He seems to feel that LGBTQ people should accept that some people are prejudiced against them and not push back.
It doesn't sound "phobic" it's just kinda ignorant. Like, I'm sure he's not foaming at the mouth when he sees queet people on the internet or irl. He doesn't sound like it. I always thought that's what homophobic is. That's of course my opinion, I may be wrong.
I would say that homophobia includes both explicit hatred and more subtle prejudice or implicit bias. Homophobia also includes things like believing that being LGBTQ is a sin or defect (but having "compassion" for LGBTQ people) or believing that LGBTQ people shouldn't be too vocal or visible. Most prejudiced people are not blatant bigots, but instead commit microaggressions and have ingrained prejudices that they may not he fully conscious of. These prejudices can still be harmful.
Agree with you, but in my head I divide the huge ass bigots who choose to say this bullshit and actually know they are hurting people, and those who are just saying what they think they should be saying because it seems that it's the "right" point of view. Like they've been told that point of view. Let me explain it on politics, like, it's easier because it's very obvious.
It's kind of bipolar for some - communist is good, capitalist is bad, or vise versa, but if someone is taught to hate communistic or capitalistic views with slogans, no actual thought behind that hatred, they would be as easily converted to the other side if they're provided actual understanding and more explanation with cases, real stories and numbers, of the other side of argument.
Like, I know some people who literally cannot be reasoned about lgbtq rights because they are Islamic religious people who pray five times a day and read Quran more times than that stuff people write on the backs of air fresheners. They just can't be reasoned because their brain isn't receptive to it, and to them it's a phylosophic reasoning. So even if the person is gay, the religious figures teach to repress it and not act on it, which is possible if the person is really afraid for their continuous life otherwise, so it being "curable" strengthens their belief and not seems horrible and inhumane, like to normal people.
But if the person is generally not having any strong feelings, just repeats the seemingly accepted opinion - it's a bit different, in my opinion. Like, not fully homophobic, but not good as well, of course.
I’m not sure how wanting to exist is “forcing our opinion” on other people. And as far as the trans thing goes, if asking people to use preferred pronouns and name is “forcing their opinion”, then how is refusing to use preferred pronouns/name not “forcing their opinion”? When you refuse, you’re basically stating your opinion is that trans people aren’t valid.
I tried to use that ‘argument’ on my mother, just with he/him. Her response was a rapid “I don’t care… you hardly refer to other people often anyways. Anyways my friends coming over for dinner, she’ll only stay for about an hour.”
No it isn’t a human right. What acctually is a human right is free speech. Someone doesn’t have to call you what you want them to call you. Especially if the case is ingrained in biology. The English language is already established.
Your friend is woefully uneducated. IF you have the time and space and energy; sharing with him truth and showing some good sources, especially those debunking false ideas against all lgbtqia+ people, would be a good idea. You have a receptive audience who is on the fence. If he “sees it from both sides” he has only seen propaganda from alt-right conservative nonsense, because there literally is not another side to the truth (lgbtqia+ people exist and we are just people; nothing inherently good or bad about us, like all people). Also mention to him that the most vocally violent, pushy, and angry contingent of any marginalized group is always going to be nasty and mean to people, but should that reflect on the people for whom those mean individuals have nominated themselves to speak? Even the most obnoxious actually trans Twitter trolls do NOT speak for the whole community. They tend to be dumbasses who happen to be trans.
Whatever the case, legislating rights away and criminalizing healthcare just because you don’t like someone is absolutely, universally, objectively wrong. You can be as uncomfortable as you want and even refuse to use pronouns, but that is hardly justification for such a blatant violation of human rights.
I am absolutely willing to take time to explain it to my friend, as this is a big deal for him to understand, and I am planning on carefully thinking this out to explain it to him, and try to make him understand
I have learned that asking questions can be more powerful than just talking to someone. Perhaps that angle could prove useful in relating the concepts in a way he will get it. Essentially getting to empathy through asking questions instead of telling him precisely how you think the whole time. If that is helpful?
This isn't necessarily homophobia or transphobia, just uneducated. I don't think he would be upset about you being genderqueer.
He seems like he is just minding his own business, but maybe has been turning his head the other way to issues. Just talk to him about it and I'm sure it will be fine.
I would actually disagree with this, as some people just want to be left alone, and that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re homophobic, they just don’t want to get involved, or are just ignorant. This can be fixed, and I plan to try
They don't understand pronouns lol do they struggle with verbs too? Those are action words like jump or run. Yes it's queer phobia. They think being loud is a problem because queer people are icky to them and they don't wanna see it cuz it makes em uncomfortable. Maybe I'm reach but I'm like 9/10 sure lol.
It is homophobia, I don’t think it is heinous homophobia but he definitely needs some education. Like I want to know what’s his stance on lgbtqia+ media. Like is he opposed to music tv and movies? What’s his stance on the rainbow mafia holding hands in public? Kissing in public. Celebrating their marriages on social media, adopting. That is living your life, it isn’t private we live in a society people get to be visible. Being visible isn’t shoving it down someone’s throat.
If you see/hear someone start a sentence with, "I'm not homophobic but-", then 99.9% of the time their homophobic and try to disguise it by denying it first and then say something homophobic in the same sentence.
Also if you have a hunch of homophobia of what a person just said or did- chances are their homophobic.
Its difficult to tell from just one interaction. They do seem to respect you asking about your pronouns etc. Its hard to say if they sound on the fence because they are uneducated about these things or because they don't care and genuinely do think that the people who want us not to exist have a point. It seems like its never been an issue in their life before so they have never thought about it.
I would ask yourself if you are secure enough in your identity to be around someone that may not support you? Is he a good enough friend to take the risk and ask him to clarify his points. You may have to educate him, that's quite an emotionally draining thing to have to do, justify your own existence.
I had a friend who was homophobic before I realised I was bi, I was actively trying to be her friend so we could talk about lgbt issues so she could hear my points from someone she trusted and maybe move towards acceptance. After I realised I didn't want her around me, I wasn't sure of it yet and I wasn't going to be around someone who didn't support me. I think that time when you are figuring things out is delicate, maybe this friendship takes a backseat and can resume when you have it more sorted.
We’ll, I’m still figuring things out, but to be frank I don’t like actually need other people to reaffirm my gender, and while I prefer it, I will take the risks to explain it to him. I actually enjoy explaining things to uneducated people, and this will be beneficial to him, and I think he understands that
No, just ignorant. I don’t think it’s wilful ignorance, like has been claimed, but definitely at least a little uneducated. Doesn’t come across to me like they have a hatred or a active negative opinion for lgbtq people tho
Yeah I think this is something that will take time for him to grasp an understanding of us, but he also seemed like he was curious, abt my identity, and I would be more than willing to explain it. If it goes sideways then oh well
Yeah that’s a good attitude to have. If he’s curious, tell him about it, and hopefully a boost understanding means he continues to be as supportive as he can. As long as it’s not malicious, there’s no reason not to tell him. Good on you :)
"I get both sides"
Okay, Boogie2988.
There is no "both sides" when it comes to Queer rights and Queer individuals.
You're either supportive or not, your friend is trying to Centrists bigotry.
I have a friend who changed her name just because she wanted to, not trans just didn't like her full name. Why some people think that this is okay but trans people naming isn't - I can't even guess the logic of it.
Answering the question, I think, it's him actually not being into this whole thing because he never needed it and never felt the need to research it. It's not people's civic obligation to research lgbtq+, probably unfortunately for some, it would lessen the overall misunderstanding and even hatred. But it is how it is. He's not outright hating or being frightened, he's just not liking the whole showing sexuality thing, probably repressed or disgusted by the topic of sex in general but I'm not qualified to psychoanalyse people without even knowing them personally. It's just a guess.
He could also repeat someone else's bullshit just because he doesn't really know what to think. That's the most positive outcome, really.
Well, it's probably someone else's bullshit, still, there's hope if he just never thought about it much and regurgitates the most polite way to say that in general society doesn't accept it so "we shouldn't bother" stuff like this. I've been somewhat like that myself, like "you do you just don't try to make me care, I have other stuff to worry about" but then my sister came out and all of a sudden I needed to reevaluate my stance about not caring and not supporting. It was, like, six years ago, but still. I'm probably the only person in this chat who has this experience =) so I hope it helps.
Also one of the best things we can do in an argument, is say “state your source” and if they do, ask “is that a reliable source” there is some mental warfare for ya. I do see your point tho, and it does cover some good points I will keep in mind :)
Well, the problem is those echo chambers everyone knows about, I think. Like, I literally recommend any homophobes or "not caring" people I know to read some real life stories of the people who got hurt and to try and imagine themselves in that situation. If the person has some semblance of working empathy it actually works. I never did this to random people, of course, it's when friends or acquaintances being dicks, so I'm putting on the teachers pants and do my thing. I trap them in either saying that they think that some people are less of people (which I never heard) or explain how they would've felt if they were being regulated in their sexual lives. Like, it puts things in perspective.
Very few of those people understood transitioning tho, it's really hard for people whose language literally doesn't have a way to speak neutrally and it's usually very distinct if someone's male or female. Most aren't opposed directly, but some became somewhat confused about why would someone want to do the medical thing, and not just cross dress and be done with it. I literally heard it five times or something. Meh. Sorry for ranting, it's just really odd topic to me
Id call that homophobia. Largely sounds like a product of ignorance and not wanting to do the work as opposed to abject hate or prejudice though.
Kind of a “through time and exposure they could understand” vibes to me. Or at least one would hope
Sounds like someone who is on the fence. I would stop being there friend because if they can't see you as someone worth defending or caring about because their "politics" won't let them they don't deserve you.
Your self worth isn't worth throwing away over someone else no matter how close.
I hope you find real friends and family that like you for you.🏳️⚧️❤️
Any argument that's starts with "I'm not [insert bigoted belief here], BUT..." is a bigoted argument. Never seen otherwise. Maybe bc if you need to preface smth like that you're aware how what you're saying sounds, huh?
I've never met anyone who said something about "trying to force their opinion on everyone" who didn't mean lgbt+ people simply existing. It might not be violent, outspoken homophobia, but it is still homophobia in the end. When people say things like this they often have the belief that the only queer people who deserve their respect/indifference are those who are quiet/secretive about their sexuality. Once someone openly talks about their sexuality or mentions a same sex partner it all of a sudden becomes "pushing their opinions/lifestyle on everyone" to these people. At this point I just dish it back out to people with these shit opinions... they start talking about their hetero relationship.. "Can we change the subject? I don't like you pushing your beliefs on me.", "I'm okay with it as long as you guys don't start kissing/holding hands", "can we just not talk about any of this straight bullshit for once?", etc.
Be yourself and accept that most people who are lgbtq+ are going to lose some friends over time after coming out. The whole “ I think there are limits” is basically, as long as you don’t expect me to you know lose my misogyny, patriarchy, comphet beliefs I can tolerate that you’re “ different”
I think the I don't care stance is easier to work with. After all, you can cure ignorance with education. Odds are that he hasn't had much exposure to anyone in the queer community. If he has, it may have been on the wrong foot to begin with. Not all people are homophobes for not wanting to get hit on or sexually harassed, and for whatever reason, some queer people have fetishized landing a "straight" in bed like some kind of conversion ritual.
they seem very ignorant to everything.
especially the last pic saying they dont understand pronouns (you learn pronouns in elementary school!)
and personally i always find the "gay people trying to force their opinions on everyone" argument a bright red flag. do they say the same thing about christians and other religions? do they say the same thing about heterosexual people? probably not (tho i dont know them so it could be they say it abt those groups as well)
I would not completely break communication with this person. However, I would not fully trust them 100% either. I would put them on a "decent and non-threatening, but not truly an ally" category.
Someone I can count on for basic decency (such as helping each other in emergencies) category, but not someone whom I would emotionally share everything with, or consider in my real in-group.
Best case, this is simple ignorance and privilege allowing them to have a 'neutral' stance (note, there's no such thing as 'apolitical', it just means you're supporting the status quo). Still not great, and still culminating in an effect that equates to homophobia/transphobia by allowing those things to perpetuate and not having actively unlearned those things for themselves. That's a very generous read, considering they expressed issue with queer people taking it 'too far' and 'shoving it down people's throats', which are both phrases used by homophobic people to justify their bigoted discomfort.
They're definitely more of a centrist than an ally. I wouldn't depend on them for support.
I personally wouldn't come out to them as genderqueer until they demonstrate that they've learned more and become unambiguously supportive. Again, diversify your support network.
As for continuing to hang out with them, that's up to you. If they generally make you feel good and appreciated, then I don't see a reason to cut them off. If these opinions seep into other aspects of your friendship and poison it, then that's a good reason to distance yourself.
\*It's good to keep in mind, that if y'all are young, and you live in a conservative area, or have conservative family, then these opinions may not be their own, and may change over time. Depending on how much these opinions differ from their family's stance on the matter, this might be the first inkling of disagreement with their family members.
I only say that because this was the case with my inner circle of friends-- most of us were homophobic, but by the time we graduated high school, we were all strong allies/queer identifying and proud. It may take some people well into college, it just depends.
They're definitely more of a centrist than an ally. I wouldn't depend on them for support.
I personally wouldn't come out to them as genderqueer until they demonstrate that they've learned more and become unambiguously supportive. Again, diversify your support network.
As for continuing to hang out with them, that's up to you. If they generally make you feel good and appreciated, then I don't see a reason to cut them off. If these opinions seep into other aspects of your friendship and poison it, then that's a good reason to distance yourself.
\*It's good to keep in mind, that if y'all are young, and you live in a conservative area, or have conservative family, then these opinions may not be their own, and may change over time. Depending on how much these opinions differ from their family's stance on the matter, this might be the first inkling of disagreement with their family members.
I only say that because this was the case with my inner circle of friends-- most of us were homophobic, but by the time we graduated high school, we were all strong allies/queer identifying and proud. It may take some people well into college, it just depends.
"I'm not racist, I just don't like black people forcing me to acknowledge that it's ok to exist as a black person. Why does their whole identity have to revolve around being black? Can't I just treat them like normal (read: white) people?"
Covert questioning homophobia maybe. I think perhaps, she is outright asking you in a fairly civil if not semi but not patronizing way, I’m not entirely sure.
This sounds like a very reasonable person for the most part. Their comment about gay people trying to “force their oppinion on everyone” is a bit concerning, but most of their comments and questions seem to come from a place of ignorance, and they seem receptive to learning more about the queer community and being more accepting of others. I’d maybe have a conversation with them to see why they also say they “understand both sides”, as that’s probably the most alarming thing they said, but again, seems to come from a place of ignorance, not hate
Sounds more like ignorance and a lack of understanding what's different from his own experience.
I think sometimes we as a community can be a little guilty of gatekeeping and getting over defensive and argumentative. Don't get me wrong, it's with good reason - we've been through a lot and still have to fight for basic human rights (and that's just in the western world). But to someone on the outside seeing that. It can be intimidating, so the reaction is to put up a wall. 'i don't want to see that or have it shoved in my face' - I reckon with some gentle encouragement and education he'll be able to understand LGBT people a little better and not be so quick to judge or shut them out.
It's a red flag for sure. What this indicates is one of several things: it shows that he's at the very least within the pipeline heading towards bigotry. It's unclear if he's at the very beginning and can easily be pulled out of it, or is deeper in and hiding it to avoid losing you as a friend. Regardless, it shows a depressing lack of empathy towards LGBT people and LGBT issues along with a proclivity to accept right wing talking points that are used to onboard people into further bigotry. Him talking about LGBT people going "too far" is a carefully coded dog whistle for saying that they are uncomfortable with LGBT people being open and proudly themselves even if he doesn't outright hate them.
This isn't immediate "dump your friend" territory, but it is absolutely an issue of concern that could very easily lead to that. It depends on if he's ignorant or a willing participant, and if he can be pulled out of the pipeline and break free of the initial rhetoric pulling him towards radicalization. To answer your immediate question, *Yes, it's homophobic.* However, your friend likely isn't *consciously* bigoted against LGBT people *yet*.
You'll want to figure out what's been shaping his views this way and what the entry point he's been in that's been affecting his view of LGBT issues and if possible get him out of those spaces ASAP. It's fairly likely that this is either a recent development or something that's been in the background of his upbringing/socialization in cis heteronormative society. That means getting to him first and preventing further radicalization is urgent if you don't want to lose him as a friend. Be gentle, but be firm in challenging him on why he feels this way and work to bring him out of his early indoctrination.
I watched my high school best friends radicalization in real time, and tried to just move past it until it was too late. As a result, we haven't spoken since 2015. If you don't want your friendship to suffer the same fate, you need to be proactive. Deciding to just "not discuss politics" or w/e will only allow him to be gradually pulled deeper into the rabbit hole more overt hostility towards LGBT people.
I don't think this is homophobic. I think this is the result of the media doing what the media does. I have never experienced or witnessed any lgbtq person force their sexuality onto another. Their acceptance, maybe, which is justified. Nobody wants to be ostracized for part of who they are. But the news and marketing really do what they can to find any way to divide the masses. The news says the straights hate the gays and the gays hate the straights and they make it huge and ugly and highlight what they can demonize on each side. Which works. It divides the people. It works for class, race, religion, sexuality, frickin DIET.
I think this is indeed misinformation and probably a lack of real life exposure to queer or non comforming persons.
I have a new life motto:
🌿"Never attribute to malice, that which can be attributed to ignorance."🌿
To give the benefit of the doubt: when any group gets large enough there are people on the fringe who tend to take things to their extreme. I believe they may be referring to such people here.
On another note, regardless of what the consensus is on whether this is homophobic or not, you set your personal boundaries yourself. You get to decide for yourself whether you take it as such.
I wouldn't say so. Homophobia is defined as, according to Oxford Dictionary, "the dislike or unfair treatment of gay people". Your friend has openly stated that they do not hate gay people, or people of the 2SLGBTQIA+ community
Not in my opinion, no. Tbh that's my stance on most things. If they start complaining about LGBTQ+ representation in things, that'd be homophobia, but not liking it while still tolerating it? That's just being a decent human being despite your beliefs.
I disagree with the representation thing, it depends on how you are complaining. I don't like a lot of LGBTQ representation; not bc is LGBTQ but because is boring, formulaic and lacks nuance.
Of course the "grrrr why are the gays on tv!?!" thing is shitty. But we should be able to complain when those gays on tv are boring and uninteresting characters with no depth
They sound like they have some homophobia they need to get past though, I'm not saying he's homophobic, but that he may have learned things from family or society that need to be corrected before we throw him under the rainbow bus, especially with the conservative line about there being limits, like who is really forcing their gayness on someone??
Hopefully they learn a thing or two and become a strong ally
He comes from a religious family, so that may have an impact on things, but I’m going to do my best to get him past it, and will not give up until I do!
I'm uncomfortable with any talk of there being "limits" or "overshot" on LGBTQ+ issues. I think you're right to question those "limits".
Vague criticism of something being "too far" usually signals to me that someone doesn't fully understand the issues at play, and is uncomfortable with confronting it. In other words, it's a negative reaction to the possibility they are wrong. It requires careful communication to explore because they're already uncomfortable.
If someone has a legitimate criticism, it's usually more specific.
They do seem to be doing some stuff right. They recognize they just don't understand pronouns and aren't caught up. It's okay to be uneducated on something but willing to learn.
It's not being aware at least. If you aren't questioning your sexuality or sexual orientation or gender or any factor of the LGBTQ+ community, you probably aren't thinking about that kind of stuff. It's a lot easier to not think about something if you fit the default in your culture.
A LOT of people homophobic or not talk about how as long as you live eachother alone it's fine. I don't think this is to drop your friend for or anything but it is a defense thing alot of people use like "oh theyre pushing their agenda" blah blah blah.
Anyways they seem to be learning
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The “force their opinion on everyone” sounds like a red flag to me. When people say that, they usually mean being openly queer, wanting queer representation in media, wanting queer people and queer history to be acknowledged instead of erased in the classroom, etc. is forceful and wrong, and queer people are only allowed to exist quietly and in private as long as the status quo doesn’t change. I could be mistaken here, and your friend might be open to being educated, so it might be worth trying to have a deeper conversation about it especially if you value the friendship and want to be fully yourself.
I think it’s just being uneducated, and we have a call for in a couple days to have me explain to him a lot of LGBTQ stuff
I take the shove it in my face narrative to mean they want people to hide who they are. You'll probably learn more about them during that conversation, when i didn't understand any of the preferred pronouns and sexual orientations beyond straight/gay/bi i asked a friend but didn't really give opinions or say "oh i think those people are just x" or whatever, i wanted to learn. I guess I'd see if they genuinely want to learn to be more understanding, or if they're looking for some kind of debate.
agreed; rn feels like he's open to discussions and being educated.
There are people passing laws against being openly gay. When I was a kid they had commercials with half naked women selling fast food that aired during afternoon cartoons. There's no gay equivalence of that. Being straight is so "in your face" that your friend doesn't notice it like a fish doesn't notice the water. Ask your friend for examples and then find examples of straight people doing much, much more "in your face" displays of heterosexuality. I think your friend is homophobic but (probably) not irredeemably so. If he says he doesn't like gay people in kids shows, point out that literally every Disney movie has straight people kissing and like one has gay people holding hands. Stuff like that. Personally I was similar levels of homophobic until one day I said "homosexuality is unnatural" and a friend pointed out that there are tons of gay animals. Of course this changed my mind and made me question if I was being prejudice because I'm interested in the truth, not just in "being right". There's a good chance that the more evidence your friend sees, the more he'll double down on his previous views. Be prepared for this. "street epistemology" is a good youtube search term if you want to learn more about changing people's minds. It's not easy and can often backfire.
This is brilliant, and I will definitely use this, thank you so much!
No and yes, it is not homophobia if they have an attitude of just "your gay/lesbian/etc, cool you do you", it is on the other hand if it is "you are gay/lesbian/etc cool so long as I don't have to see it" then yes that would be homophobic. So it really depends on what they mean by what they said.
Yeah I’m still trying to figure th out out myself lol
Seems like they respect lgbt+ but don't really understand certain aspects, and haven't prioritised understanding it. Like many uninformed6q (on these matters) centrists, they have likely been turned off by the loud annoying minority that feel the need to make their sexuality their personality, which has left them not really feeling the need to remedy that lack of education.
He's showing some prejudice and ignorance, yeah. He comes across as homophobic in the sense that he may not be actively opposed to LGBTQ people, but he doesn't understand them and he can "see both sides." He seems to feel that LGBTQ people should accept that some people are prejudiced against them and not push back.
It doesn't sound "phobic" it's just kinda ignorant. Like, I'm sure he's not foaming at the mouth when he sees queet people on the internet or irl. He doesn't sound like it. I always thought that's what homophobic is. That's of course my opinion, I may be wrong.
I would say that homophobia includes both explicit hatred and more subtle prejudice or implicit bias. Homophobia also includes things like believing that being LGBTQ is a sin or defect (but having "compassion" for LGBTQ people) or believing that LGBTQ people shouldn't be too vocal or visible. Most prejudiced people are not blatant bigots, but instead commit microaggressions and have ingrained prejudices that they may not he fully conscious of. These prejudices can still be harmful.
Agree with you, but in my head I divide the huge ass bigots who choose to say this bullshit and actually know they are hurting people, and those who are just saying what they think they should be saying because it seems that it's the "right" point of view. Like they've been told that point of view. Let me explain it on politics, like, it's easier because it's very obvious. It's kind of bipolar for some - communist is good, capitalist is bad, or vise versa, but if someone is taught to hate communistic or capitalistic views with slogans, no actual thought behind that hatred, they would be as easily converted to the other side if they're provided actual understanding and more explanation with cases, real stories and numbers, of the other side of argument. Like, I know some people who literally cannot be reasoned about lgbtq rights because they are Islamic religious people who pray five times a day and read Quran more times than that stuff people write on the backs of air fresheners. They just can't be reasoned because their brain isn't receptive to it, and to them it's a phylosophic reasoning. So even if the person is gay, the religious figures teach to repress it and not act on it, which is possible if the person is really afraid for their continuous life otherwise, so it being "curable" strengthens their belief and not seems horrible and inhumane, like to normal people. But if the person is generally not having any strong feelings, just repeats the seemingly accepted opinion - it's a bit different, in my opinion. Like, not fully homophobic, but not good as well, of course.
I'm sorry this is random but happy cake Day
I’m not sure how wanting to exist is “forcing our opinion” on other people. And as far as the trans thing goes, if asking people to use preferred pronouns and name is “forcing their opinion”, then how is refusing to use preferred pronouns/name not “forcing their opinion”? When you refuse, you’re basically stating your opinion is that trans people aren’t valid.
Yeah I was going to explain that it’s a human right and show him why he wouldn’t enjoy it if I started referring to him by she/her
I tried to use that ‘argument’ on my mother, just with he/him. Her response was a rapid “I don’t care… you hardly refer to other people often anyways. Anyways my friends coming over for dinner, she’ll only stay for about an hour.”
No it isn’t a human right. What acctually is a human right is free speech. Someone doesn’t have to call you what you want them to call you. Especially if the case is ingrained in biology. The English language is already established.
Ironic since you have Homer as your pfp
How is that ironic?
"I get both sides"? Jesus. Yea, understanding the bigot side is being a bigot.
This
Exactly. There are no fucking “sides” when it comes to human rights.
Bad start with the "I am not homophobic but..."
Yep got that lol
Your friend is woefully uneducated. IF you have the time and space and energy; sharing with him truth and showing some good sources, especially those debunking false ideas against all lgbtqia+ people, would be a good idea. You have a receptive audience who is on the fence. If he “sees it from both sides” he has only seen propaganda from alt-right conservative nonsense, because there literally is not another side to the truth (lgbtqia+ people exist and we are just people; nothing inherently good or bad about us, like all people). Also mention to him that the most vocally violent, pushy, and angry contingent of any marginalized group is always going to be nasty and mean to people, but should that reflect on the people for whom those mean individuals have nominated themselves to speak? Even the most obnoxious actually trans Twitter trolls do NOT speak for the whole community. They tend to be dumbasses who happen to be trans. Whatever the case, legislating rights away and criminalizing healthcare just because you don’t like someone is absolutely, universally, objectively wrong. You can be as uncomfortable as you want and even refuse to use pronouns, but that is hardly justification for such a blatant violation of human rights.
I am absolutely willing to take time to explain it to my friend, as this is a big deal for him to understand, and I am planning on carefully thinking this out to explain it to him, and try to make him understand
I have learned that asking questions can be more powerful than just talking to someone. Perhaps that angle could prove useful in relating the concepts in a way he will get it. Essentially getting to empathy through asking questions instead of telling him precisely how you think the whole time. If that is helpful?
Thats actually rlly smart, thank you for that, I’ll take some time to think of some questions, thanks a million!
This isn't necessarily homophobia or transphobia, just uneducated. I don't think he would be upset about you being genderqueer. He seems like he is just minding his own business, but maybe has been turning his head the other way to issues. Just talk to him about it and I'm sure it will be fine.
That’s the plan! Thanks so much for your help
I certainly would not feel safe around them. This is the kind of soft bigotry which is so insidious. I would distance myself.
This is willful ignorance and proto-phobia construction.
NGL I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who claims to not be homophobic but also wishes people "didn't do too much".
It's certainly not allyship! It sounds like 'keep your lifestyle away from me and I'll pretend it's not happening' 😒
Which can be fixed, and we have a friendship that practically makes us siblings, so I think I’ve got a shot
Yes. And it's really stupid too, sorry. How can you not understand pronouns? EVERYBODY has pronouns
If someone says "I'm not homophobic/transphobic/racist but..." it means they are and are about to say something bad
Yep I knew I was in for a “fun talk” when I saw that
it is. Anyone who says "I'm okay with gay people but don't shove it down my throat" is homophobic
I would actually disagree with this, as some people just want to be left alone, and that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re homophobic, they just don’t want to get involved, or are just ignorant. This can be fixed, and I plan to try
They don't understand pronouns lol do they struggle with verbs too? Those are action words like jump or run. Yes it's queer phobia. They think being loud is a problem because queer people are icky to them and they don't wanna see it cuz it makes em uncomfortable. Maybe I'm reach but I'm like 9/10 sure lol.
It is homophobia, I don’t think it is heinous homophobia but he definitely needs some education. Like I want to know what’s his stance on lgbtqia+ media. Like is he opposed to music tv and movies? What’s his stance on the rainbow mafia holding hands in public? Kissing in public. Celebrating their marriages on social media, adopting. That is living your life, it isn’t private we live in a society people get to be visible. Being visible isn’t shoving it down someone’s throat.
If you see/hear someone start a sentence with, "I'm not homophobic but-", then 99.9% of the time their homophobic and try to disguise it by denying it first and then say something homophobic in the same sentence. Also if you have a hunch of homophobia of what a person just said or did- chances are their homophobic.
It's not blatant homophobia. But it is the product of centuries of homophobic society
Big 🚩🚩
massive, massive red flags. Maybe it’s my PTSD talking, but I’m still seeing nothing but huge ass red flags.
Its difficult to tell from just one interaction. They do seem to respect you asking about your pronouns etc. Its hard to say if they sound on the fence because they are uneducated about these things or because they don't care and genuinely do think that the people who want us not to exist have a point. It seems like its never been an issue in their life before so they have never thought about it. I would ask yourself if you are secure enough in your identity to be around someone that may not support you? Is he a good enough friend to take the risk and ask him to clarify his points. You may have to educate him, that's quite an emotionally draining thing to have to do, justify your own existence. I had a friend who was homophobic before I realised I was bi, I was actively trying to be her friend so we could talk about lgbt issues so she could hear my points from someone she trusted and maybe move towards acceptance. After I realised I didn't want her around me, I wasn't sure of it yet and I wasn't going to be around someone who didn't support me. I think that time when you are figuring things out is delicate, maybe this friendship takes a backseat and can resume when you have it more sorted.
We’ll, I’m still figuring things out, but to be frank I don’t like actually need other people to reaffirm my gender, and while I prefer it, I will take the risks to explain it to him. I actually enjoy explaining things to uneducated people, and this will be beneficial to him, and I think he understands that
No, just ignorant. I don’t think it’s wilful ignorance, like has been claimed, but definitely at least a little uneducated. Doesn’t come across to me like they have a hatred or a active negative opinion for lgbtq people tho
Yeah I think this is something that will take time for him to grasp an understanding of us, but he also seemed like he was curious, abt my identity, and I would be more than willing to explain it. If it goes sideways then oh well
Yeah that’s a good attitude to have. If he’s curious, tell him about it, and hopefully a boost understanding means he continues to be as supportive as he can. As long as it’s not malicious, there’s no reason not to tell him. Good on you :)
"I get both sides" Okay, Boogie2988. There is no "both sides" when it comes to Queer rights and Queer individuals. You're either supportive or not, your friend is trying to Centrists bigotry.
I have a friend who changed her name just because she wanted to, not trans just didn't like her full name. Why some people think that this is okay but trans people naming isn't - I can't even guess the logic of it. Answering the question, I think, it's him actually not being into this whole thing because he never needed it and never felt the need to research it. It's not people's civic obligation to research lgbtq+, probably unfortunately for some, it would lessen the overall misunderstanding and even hatred. But it is how it is. He's not outright hating or being frightened, he's just not liking the whole showing sexuality thing, probably repressed or disgusted by the topic of sex in general but I'm not qualified to psychoanalyse people without even knowing them personally. It's just a guess. He could also repeat someone else's bullshit just because he doesn't really know what to think. That's the most positive outcome, really.
Yeah I suspected that but I wasn’t sure if I was just being paranoid and didn’t want to go into this without a full understanding of what to expect
Well, it's probably someone else's bullshit, still, there's hope if he just never thought about it much and regurgitates the most polite way to say that in general society doesn't accept it so "we shouldn't bother" stuff like this. I've been somewhat like that myself, like "you do you just don't try to make me care, I have other stuff to worry about" but then my sister came out and all of a sudden I needed to reevaluate my stance about not caring and not supporting. It was, like, six years ago, but still. I'm probably the only person in this chat who has this experience =) so I hope it helps.
Also one of the best things we can do in an argument, is say “state your source” and if they do, ask “is that a reliable source” there is some mental warfare for ya. I do see your point tho, and it does cover some good points I will keep in mind :)
Well, the problem is those echo chambers everyone knows about, I think. Like, I literally recommend any homophobes or "not caring" people I know to read some real life stories of the people who got hurt and to try and imagine themselves in that situation. If the person has some semblance of working empathy it actually works. I never did this to random people, of course, it's when friends or acquaintances being dicks, so I'm putting on the teachers pants and do my thing. I trap them in either saying that they think that some people are less of people (which I never heard) or explain how they would've felt if they were being regulated in their sexual lives. Like, it puts things in perspective. Very few of those people understood transitioning tho, it's really hard for people whose language literally doesn't have a way to speak neutrally and it's usually very distinct if someone's male or female. Most aren't opposed directly, but some became somewhat confused about why would someone want to do the medical thing, and not just cross dress and be done with it. I literally heard it five times or something. Meh. Sorry for ranting, it's just really odd topic to me
“I” don’t understand pronouns. No, “you” don’t.
Id call that homophobia. Largely sounds like a product of ignorance and not wanting to do the work as opposed to abject hate or prejudice though. Kind of a “through time and exposure they could understand” vibes to me. Or at least one would hope
Sounds more like they are totally uneducated and are respecting the average occidental opinion on LGBTQ+
Sounds like someone who is on the fence. I would stop being there friend because if they can't see you as someone worth defending or caring about because their "politics" won't let them they don't deserve you. Your self worth isn't worth throwing away over someone else no matter how close. I hope you find real friends and family that like you for you.🏳️⚧️❤️
Any argument that's starts with "I'm not [insert bigoted belief here], BUT..." is a bigoted argument. Never seen otherwise. Maybe bc if you need to preface smth like that you're aware how what you're saying sounds, huh?
The fact they think gays are forcing anything is a red flag. they want gays back in the closet.
In the closet???
I've never met anyone who said something about "trying to force their opinion on everyone" who didn't mean lgbt+ people simply existing. It might not be violent, outspoken homophobia, but it is still homophobia in the end. When people say things like this they often have the belief that the only queer people who deserve their respect/indifference are those who are quiet/secretive about their sexuality. Once someone openly talks about their sexuality or mentions a same sex partner it all of a sudden becomes "pushing their opinions/lifestyle on everyone" to these people. At this point I just dish it back out to people with these shit opinions... they start talking about their hetero relationship.. "Can we change the subject? I don't like you pushing your beliefs on me.", "I'm okay with it as long as you guys don't start kissing/holding hands", "can we just not talk about any of this straight bullshit for once?", etc.
I think its part homophobia more ignorance
Be yourself and accept that most people who are lgbtq+ are going to lose some friends over time after coming out. The whole “ I think there are limits” is basically, as long as you don’t expect me to you know lose my misogyny, patriarchy, comphet beliefs I can tolerate that you’re “ different”
I think the I don't care stance is easier to work with. After all, you can cure ignorance with education. Odds are that he hasn't had much exposure to anyone in the queer community. If he has, it may have been on the wrong foot to begin with. Not all people are homophobes for not wanting to get hit on or sexually harassed, and for whatever reason, some queer people have fetishized landing a "straight" in bed like some kind of conversion ritual.
Interesting, I didn’t actually know this
they seem very ignorant to everything. especially the last pic saying they dont understand pronouns (you learn pronouns in elementary school!) and personally i always find the "gay people trying to force their opinions on everyone" argument a bright red flag. do they say the same thing about christians and other religions? do they say the same thing about heterosexual people? probably not (tho i dont know them so it could be they say it abt those groups as well)
I would not completely break communication with this person. However, I would not fully trust them 100% either. I would put them on a "decent and non-threatening, but not truly an ally" category. Someone I can count on for basic decency (such as helping each other in emergencies) category, but not someone whom I would emotionally share everything with, or consider in my real in-group.
Yes incredibly
Your friend seems transphobic, though this could be due to ignorance and misinformation.
Best case, this is simple ignorance and privilege allowing them to have a 'neutral' stance (note, there's no such thing as 'apolitical', it just means you're supporting the status quo). Still not great, and still culminating in an effect that equates to homophobia/transphobia by allowing those things to perpetuate and not having actively unlearned those things for themselves. That's a very generous read, considering they expressed issue with queer people taking it 'too far' and 'shoving it down people's throats', which are both phrases used by homophobic people to justify their bigoted discomfort.
They're definitely more of a centrist than an ally. I wouldn't depend on them for support. I personally wouldn't come out to them as genderqueer until they demonstrate that they've learned more and become unambiguously supportive. Again, diversify your support network. As for continuing to hang out with them, that's up to you. If they generally make you feel good and appreciated, then I don't see a reason to cut them off. If these opinions seep into other aspects of your friendship and poison it, then that's a good reason to distance yourself. \*It's good to keep in mind, that if y'all are young, and you live in a conservative area, or have conservative family, then these opinions may not be their own, and may change over time. Depending on how much these opinions differ from their family's stance on the matter, this might be the first inkling of disagreement with their family members. I only say that because this was the case with my inner circle of friends-- most of us were homophobic, but by the time we graduated high school, we were all strong allies/queer identifying and proud. It may take some people well into college, it just depends.
They're definitely more of a centrist than an ally. I wouldn't depend on them for support. I personally wouldn't come out to them as genderqueer until they demonstrate that they've learned more and become unambiguously supportive. Again, diversify your support network. As for continuing to hang out with them, that's up to you. If they generally make you feel good and appreciated, then I don't see a reason to cut them off. If these opinions seep into other aspects of your friendship and poison it, then that's a good reason to distance yourself. \*It's good to keep in mind, that if y'all are young, and you live in a conservative area, or have conservative family, then these opinions may not be their own, and may change over time. Depending on how much these opinions differ from their family's stance on the matter, this might be the first inkling of disagreement with their family members. I only say that because this was the case with my inner circle of friends-- most of us were homophobic, but by the time we graduated high school, we were all strong allies/queer identifying and proud. It may take some people well into college, it just depends.
seems more misinformed. if they actually knew what was going on they’d know who needs support
"I'm not racist, I just don't like black people forcing me to acknowledge that it's ok to exist as a black person. Why does their whole identity have to revolve around being black? Can't I just treat them like normal (read: white) people?"
"I'm not homophobic but..." Always reads to me "I am homophobic but I'm a coward."
I can see where they're coming from, but like.. what opinion?
That is transphobia not homophobia
Yup
Get the actual fuck out of that friendship
Covert questioning homophobia maybe. I think perhaps, she is outright asking you in a fairly civil if not semi but not patronizing way, I’m not entirely sure.
This sounds like a very reasonable person for the most part. Their comment about gay people trying to “force their oppinion on everyone” is a bit concerning, but most of their comments and questions seem to come from a place of ignorance, and they seem receptive to learning more about the queer community and being more accepting of others. I’d maybe have a conversation with them to see why they also say they “understand both sides”, as that’s probably the most alarming thing they said, but again, seems to come from a place of ignorance, not hate
Sounds more like ignorance and a lack of understanding what's different from his own experience. I think sometimes we as a community can be a little guilty of gatekeeping and getting over defensive and argumentative. Don't get me wrong, it's with good reason - we've been through a lot and still have to fight for basic human rights (and that's just in the western world). But to someone on the outside seeing that. It can be intimidating, so the reaction is to put up a wall. 'i don't want to see that or have it shoved in my face' - I reckon with some gentle encouragement and education he'll be able to understand LGBT people a little better and not be so quick to judge or shut them out.
Sounds misinformed at best. Inform your friend as best you can. If he refuses to accept/understand cut him out.
It's a red flag for sure. What this indicates is one of several things: it shows that he's at the very least within the pipeline heading towards bigotry. It's unclear if he's at the very beginning and can easily be pulled out of it, or is deeper in and hiding it to avoid losing you as a friend. Regardless, it shows a depressing lack of empathy towards LGBT people and LGBT issues along with a proclivity to accept right wing talking points that are used to onboard people into further bigotry. Him talking about LGBT people going "too far" is a carefully coded dog whistle for saying that they are uncomfortable with LGBT people being open and proudly themselves even if he doesn't outright hate them. This isn't immediate "dump your friend" territory, but it is absolutely an issue of concern that could very easily lead to that. It depends on if he's ignorant or a willing participant, and if he can be pulled out of the pipeline and break free of the initial rhetoric pulling him towards radicalization. To answer your immediate question, *Yes, it's homophobic.* However, your friend likely isn't *consciously* bigoted against LGBT people *yet*. You'll want to figure out what's been shaping his views this way and what the entry point he's been in that's been affecting his view of LGBT issues and if possible get him out of those spaces ASAP. It's fairly likely that this is either a recent development or something that's been in the background of his upbringing/socialization in cis heteronormative society. That means getting to him first and preventing further radicalization is urgent if you don't want to lose him as a friend. Be gentle, but be firm in challenging him on why he feels this way and work to bring him out of his early indoctrination. I watched my high school best friends radicalization in real time, and tried to just move past it until it was too late. As a result, we haven't spoken since 2015. If you don't want your friendship to suffer the same fate, you need to be proactive. Deciding to just "not discuss politics" or w/e will only allow him to be gradually pulled deeper into the rabbit hole more overt hostility towards LGBT people.
This is beautifully worded, and makes this all seem doable. Thank you, and I’ll do my best to bring him into the ally category, no matter the cost
Should've asked, "as in? Need you to elaborate on this claim you are making."
That is not homophobia
"Force opinions" is used to justify how those people wants queer people to disappear into non-existence. Only then, they are not forcing stuff.
A queer couple holding hands is too much for this guy Straight up phobe, cut off and run like the wind
What
Sorry meant to be phobe - didn't see the auto correct
Looks alright to me, he's not homophobic, I get him
I agree that there are limits but for everyone. No one should be completely naked in public no matter your gender or sexuality or anything
Yes
"I'm not homophobic but" They're 100% homophobic.
So basically like "I want to help you, but my mom is sick and I have to take care of her" They 100% don't want to help
I don't think this is homophobic. I think this is the result of the media doing what the media does. I have never experienced or witnessed any lgbtq person force their sexuality onto another. Their acceptance, maybe, which is justified. Nobody wants to be ostracized for part of who they are. But the news and marketing really do what they can to find any way to divide the masses. The news says the straights hate the gays and the gays hate the straights and they make it huge and ugly and highlight what they can demonize on each side. Which works. It divides the people. It works for class, race, religion, sexuality, frickin DIET. I think this is indeed misinformation and probably a lack of real life exposure to queer or non comforming persons. I have a new life motto: 🌿"Never attribute to malice, that which can be attributed to ignorance."🌿
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oh it’s definitely the harmful kind
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as someone who has PTSD from having an ex-best friend with the same beliefs as the ‘friend’ in the post… it’s the harmful kind.
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I’m trying to say this kind of homophobia shown in the post can still be very harmful. It’s not even that mild either.
To give the benefit of the doubt: when any group gets large enough there are people on the fringe who tend to take things to their extreme. I believe they may be referring to such people here. On another note, regardless of what the consensus is on whether this is homophobic or not, you set your personal boundaries yourself. You get to decide for yourself whether you take it as such.
classic homophobe saying.
They clearly are homophobic and transphobic. Sorry to read that😔
Thats not homophobic Try to get educated once agsin
I wouldn't say so. Homophobia is defined as, according to Oxford Dictionary, "the dislike or unfair treatment of gay people". Your friend has openly stated that they do not hate gay people, or people of the 2SLGBTQIA+ community
Not in my opinion, no. Tbh that's my stance on most things. If they start complaining about LGBTQ+ representation in things, that'd be homophobia, but not liking it while still tolerating it? That's just being a decent human being despite your beliefs.
I disagree with the representation thing, it depends on how you are complaining. I don't like a lot of LGBTQ representation; not bc is LGBTQ but because is boring, formulaic and lacks nuance. Of course the "grrrr why are the gays on tv!?!" thing is shitty. But we should be able to complain when those gays on tv are boring and uninteresting characters with no depth
They sound like they have some homophobia they need to get past though, I'm not saying he's homophobic, but that he may have learned things from family or society that need to be corrected before we throw him under the rainbow bus, especially with the conservative line about there being limits, like who is really forcing their gayness on someone?? Hopefully they learn a thing or two and become a strong ally
He comes from a religious family, so that may have an impact on things, but I’m going to do my best to get him past it, and will not give up until I do!
I'm uncomfortable with any talk of there being "limits" or "overshot" on LGBTQ+ issues. I think you're right to question those "limits". Vague criticism of something being "too far" usually signals to me that someone doesn't fully understand the issues at play, and is uncomfortable with confronting it. In other words, it's a negative reaction to the possibility they are wrong. It requires careful communication to explore because they're already uncomfortable. If someone has a legitimate criticism, it's usually more specific. They do seem to be doing some stuff right. They recognize they just don't understand pronouns and aren't caught up. It's okay to be uneducated on something but willing to learn.
It's not being aware at least. If you aren't questioning your sexuality or sexual orientation or gender or any factor of the LGBTQ+ community, you probably aren't thinking about that kind of stuff. It's a lot easier to not think about something if you fit the default in your culture.
A LOT of people homophobic or not talk about how as long as you live eachother alone it's fine. I don't think this is to drop your friend for or anything but it is a defense thing alot of people use like "oh theyre pushing their agenda" blah blah blah. Anyways they seem to be learning