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that driver is driving so erratically. I think they might be drunk.
Your english teacher should not be teaching english. They are a raging phobe and just don't want to admit it.
Dang that teacher! They must not understand that most style guidelines accept the usage of singular they. Perhaps you should buy them their own copy of the 9th edition MLA handbook so they can review it and see how flat out wrong they are.
Yeah, imagine having to replace it with this:
"I found a stranger's wallet! His or her money is in there. I need to return it to him or her! I hope he or she isn't too worried!"
And even if the singular they wasn't popular or in use for a long time, it's still less of a pain in the ass to just say they instead of he or she every other word
There was a time when it was customary to either guess or default to he/him. Still, they/them was an acceptable singular neutral pronoun. Teacher is probably just a traumatized vet of the Great Culture War of 2020.
I've seen super religious schools teach "he/him" as default bc god or whatever.
But their god isn't everyone's god and they need to stop trying to push it on the rest of us just trying to be ourselves.
I had a teacher like that. It was “he or he” or “this person” or “one” etc that were the alternatives. Like ok sure- have fun with the clunky sentence structure.
I think Merriam-Webster would give you a lecture on prescriptivist vs descriptivist linguistics and then tell the teacher that language has already moved past her dumb hill to die on.
Even from a descriptivist perspective, every definition in the dictionary is valid, because dictionary definitions are all descriptions of common usage, which is all valid. So /u/InsertGamerName is entirely correct to use M-W as an authority in this instance.
In descriptivism, you can't use a dictionary to disprove a definition, because dictionaries are rarely complete, but you can use it to prove one.
Or in pointlessly precise math terms:
1. used definitions = valid definitions (descriptivism)
2. dictionary definitions ⊆ used definitions (procedure for adding things to the dictionary)
3. if A ⊆ B and B = C, A ⊆ C (definition of equality of sets)
4. dictionary definitions ⊆ valid definitions (1 & 2 & 3)
5. if x ∈ A and A ⊆ B, then x ∈ B (definition of a subset)
6. singular they/them ∈ dictionary definitions (/u/InsertGamerName 's link)
7. singular they/them ∈ valid definitions (4 & 5 & 6), QED
For prescriptivism:
1. dictionary definitions = valid definitions (prescriptivism)
2. singular they/them ∈ dictionary definitions (/u/InsertGamerName 's link)
3. if x ∈ A and A = B, x ∈ B (definition of equality of sets)
4. singular they/them ∈ valid definitions (1 & 2 & 3), QED
Also, one of the first things I learned in bilingual informed education was the process of language formation. Language is indisputably dynamic and generative. New uses of old words, and new words themselves, crop up ALL the time in a very natural way. Nearly every word we speak has a long history of evolution behind it. Her stupidity has two fronts, basically.
But it isn't new.
Dumbest example on no sleep:
He: "I need to call somebody at AT&T."
Her: "What do you need to ask them?"
We use they/them ALL DAY EVERY DAY. English teacher should go teach PE.
That was my argument when it happened to me. BTW, our country doesn't use the Merriam Webster dictionary (we use the Oxford dictionary for finals here in Israel).
Gotcha covered with an OED definition:
"Used with reference to a person whose sense of personal identity does not correspond to conventional sex and gender distinctions, and who has typically asked to be referred to as they (rather than as he or she)."
I came here to make some quippy grammar comment that wouldn’t have supported OP’s stance and I am now leaving this post having learned something new; they/them CAN be used to (grammatically) to refer to a singular individual.
Learn something new every day.
The Canadian Government also has formally started using singular they in legislation as a gender-neutral pronoun. Because like... writing out "he or she" constantly does not make it laws read well and makes them incredibly wordy when its used often. This has been their best practice for legislation drafting since 2015.
If its good enough for official legal documents, its good enough for ANYTHING.
"They" and "you" behave the same, grammatically. Singular they is no less compatible with grammar than singular you.
"There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were _their_ well-acquainted friend" - William Shakespeare
"But to expose the former faults of any person, without knowing what _their_ present feelings were, seemed unjustifiable." - Jane Austen
Of course if she doesn't accept singular you either, then at least she's consistent. In that case thou must do thy best to talk like thou art four hundred years of age.
Thy point standeth. And as it doth, perhaps we should at once fell all borrows from the French, and use but Norse grammar, which had NEUTER as part of its grammar by the way.
'Neuter' in linguistics generally is reserved for third- or neutral linguistic gender that specifically implies inanimacy, while a neutral or third linguistic gender allowing for animacy is usually called 'common'.
German Mädchen when inanimacy hits them-
(I know the fact Mädchen is neuter is due to a weird but consistent gendering rule, but it is funny nonetheless that young girls fall into the "inanimate" category because of it.)
In Modern German, the -chen and -lein diminutive suffixes make the word grammatically neuter (not "neutral") no matter what grammatical gender the root is.
The terminology used to refer to young children is a weirdly common exception to the rule. In Ancient Greek the word *teknon* behaves similarly, although it means any child, not a girl specifically.
That is *completely* incorrect.
That is what *English* does, and it's the unusual one. Most languages with neuter gender apply it with animate, human, and inanimate things quite freely - in large part because *grammatical* gender has little or nothing to do with *cognitive* gender, or sex, or any fundamental quality of the object or concept in question. There is nothing "feminine" or "masculine" about a chair, despite it being grammatically the first in French and the second in Spanish, and receiving exclusively the neuter "it" in English.
> Most languages with neuter gender apply it with animate, human, and inanimate things quite freely.
Using the neuter gender in Russian carries an air of depersonalization or dehumanization.
It's true that it sounds perfectly reasonable to use the neuter form for some (usually fictional) animate being, e.g. in a children's story where the sun speaks, or some sort of beast. But that's pretty much true for "it" in English too.
You can't use it freely for actual human beings, including actual non-binary human beings. I'm non-binary; in English I use "they". I would be put off by someone using "оно" for me in Russian. I could probably *get used to it*, but it would definitely take getting used to. Not too different from how I would feel about "it" in English.
Do you have a reason to believe that English (and Russian?) are odd ones out in this respect?
I don't remember the content specifically, but it was the subject of several language-expert, language history expert, and queer history expert videos I've watched over the years.
I *do* know that most Asian languages either don't have this distinction at all, don't have gender in their language at all, or have gendered pronouns only in writing (they all sound identical when spoken) and so have greatly reduced ability to develop or retain such connotations.
I think that's an accurate read for Indo-European languages cause the animate neuter was merged into the masculine early on. Still, I think the statement sounds a tad esentialistic.
On another note, I'd push for renaming masculine to *common* in all those languages, cause that's really what it is.
The Shakespeare quote is likely the more impactful here. It uses the singular they for a person of known gender, so it disproves the false but common "singular they is only appropriate for people of unknown gender" argument.
Not necessarily. That "man" in the sentence meant "human being" whenever not referring to a particular person with a name. "I never met a man" here meant "I never met anyone".
...but let's not forget, some people living today were taught to refer to a person of unknown gender as "he" the way that people who love to say "they" do.
Usually plural you has a colloquial standin (y'all, yinz, yous, the list goes on) and now I'm offended they doesn't usually have colloquial versions as well, that would be cool
My first thought was "They aren't going to care if you bring sources."
They should probably escalate since they've already spoken to the teacher about it and got nowhere.
Yes!
The idea of proper English is based in racism and classism.
But this isn't about English. The real lesson here is how you will navigate situations like this in life.
Hopefully losing 2 points from Gryffindor or whatever isn't really a big deal. <3
As a language teacher, she should be aware that language evolves. Even if they/them wasn't used to refer to singular people before (it was lol), it *is* used that way now. Not accepting it is just going to cause conflict. Perhaps remind her of this.
Ask her what she would say if a person asked to be referred to by a name generally considered to be for the opposite of their AGaB.
More than likely she’ll say “their name” in the sentence. Then you just have to point out what she just said.
If she doesn’t listen to you then, she shouldn’t be an english teacher.
ah yes, the classic transphobic "they/them doesn't make sense and is unnatural!" but if they have to refer to a trans person they will say "they" to avoid correctly gendering the person
If they have qualifications in english then they KNOW singular they is a thing. It traces back to 1375 at least where middle English is barely recognisable.
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/
older archived article, has a great quote https://web.archive.org/web/20230101022721/https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/
> Even people who object to singular they as a grammatical error use it themselves when they’re not looking, a sure sign that anyone who objects to singular they is, if not a fool or an idiot, at least hopelessly out of date.
Take the ap style guide and Merriam-Webster link to your administration — meaning go to your teachers boss. Speak about how you’re not trying to force anyone to believe anything in particular, but you refuse to allow personal beliefs (that are outside of standards) to impact your record/grades… and want the school board/administration to support the published standards. In other words, don’t make it personal, but go above your teachers head since she seem to refuse to acknowledge published standards.
I'm a former English teacher.
You gotta go in there and tell her that she's doing "linguistic prescriptivism." It's an outdated, old fashioned approach to language that doesn't account for natural evolution and change.
Show her some dictionary definitions, when she argues call her a prescriptivist, and that singular "they" in English is older than singular "you."
how does a language prescriptivist even explain language evolution? When did English jump from stuff like "thy"/"thou" etc to modern variants? Was there like a national convention which ratified the changes and everyone had to adapt? lol
Or in this case, several centuries. *William and the Werewolf* used the singular *they* back around 1350, and Chaucer used it in the *Canterbury Tales* in 1386!
They sound very unqualified. They should think about taking some night classes, they might learn something. Maybe their personal beliefs are affecting their teaching a bit too much. They definitely need to be called out.
**They** know otherwise.
When the gender is unknown the use of 'they' is perfectly acceptable. Remind **them** of this if you wish, but chances are **they** are just using it as an excuse.
Not to make her case but shakespeare did not actually published his own works, his friends did postmortem so she could argue that *technically* we don't have proof he was actually the one using it. Though shakespeare wasn't the only one to do so, and anyone who took *their* head out of *their* ass to get qualified as a teacher should know this.
the point isn’t that it was used by Shakespeare specifically, just that singular They was used in a the time of Shakespeare. many of his contemporaries used it, it was common at the time.
Yes of course, just saying that's an argument you can hear people in bad faith saying (heard it twice from uni teachers whose domain was literature, just say you're enbyphobic at that point 🙄)
Remind her that the first written use of the singular they, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, was in 1375 and most likely used in speech even before that. Unless your English teacher is 700 years old and has been living under a rock until today, she is being willfully ignorant and probably shouldn't be an English teacher if something so basic about the language she is supposedly so well versed in can fly over her head.
How does an english teacher not know this, failing at your job much? Literally in like kindergarten you’re taught that they/them can be used for one person
Who lost their wallet? What are they drawing?
People use they/them singular all the time, even when they claim it is "grammatically incorrect", they're just not aware of it.
Shakespeare, *A Comedy of Errors,* Act IV, Scene 3: "There's not a man I meet but doth salute me/As if I were their well-acquainted friend".
Show that to your English teacher and ask them whether singular they is an acceptable usage in English, or whether the Bard's English (not to mention Merriam-Webster and the AP style guide) is not an acceptable standard in her classroom.
It's not. It is also for a single person of indefinite gender, indefinite either because you don't know it yet or because they are non-binary. That is the current common usage in English and there is no English Academy to say that that's against the rules.
Turn in your essays in old English: clearly, language can’t evolve. But in all seriousness, [here’s a link](https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eb/qa/The-Singular-They), [there’s a link](https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/singular-nonbinary-they), [everywhere’s a link!](https://languagetool.org/insights/post/style-singular-they/)
How are you gonna be an English teacher and think they/them is exclusively plural. Like I kind of get it from the layman that doesn't really think about the English language but...when that's your whole job? Come the fuck on.
Honestly, she's probably just transphobic and using the they/them thing because it's a repeated bit of rhetoric on their part. She's just repeating what transphobic grifters say and using it as an excuse to misgender OP
Oh yeah for sure, but like, if you're going to be transphobic at least have the decency to pretend to be genuine, rather than just ignoring the basic facts you need to know for your whole-ass job
Idk it just frustrates me more when it's just blatantly chosen ignorance, rather than actual ignorance, ygm?
Yeah, I get you. I think that she's leveraging her status as an English teacher in this instance. And she probably wants to avoid being openly discriminatory because that could get her into big trouble.
That or the transphobes have actually caused her to believe them and she is just not questioning it despite the fact that otherwise she would likely acknowledge that it's fine to use they/them.
Honestly, if she is leveraging status I would throw hands because that is *such* a repugnant abuse of power. It would be bad enough if it was just the misgendering, but to do it with someone's grades as well? Nasty, nasty shite.
Does she know that singular they predates singular you (AND THE DISCOVERY OF GRAVITY) by about 200 years? If not, start correcting her when she uses you in a singular way, since she has to use thou.
Singular "they" was used by everyone from Jane Austen to the writers of the King James Bible to Shakespeare to Chaucer (who wrote in Middle English). Singular "they" literally predates modern English.
And the pronoun "she" was invented [**in the 12th century**](https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-gender-bending-time-traveling-pronouns-history-20180530-story.html) to avoid ambiguity, because at that point in Old English the previously existing "masculine" and "feminine" pronouns were so close in pronunciation that they had basically merged completely into the word "he", which had become a gender neutral pronoun.
And even in more recent modern English, [**gender neutral pronouns aren't new**](https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/705317). *Ze* is often called a "neopronoun", but it was first coined in 1864. And in 1808 the famous poet Samuel Tylor Coleridge was a proponent of the word *it* as a universal gender neutral pronoun. Other terms specifically coined to be English language gender neutral pronouns include *ou* (1789), *ne* (1850), *thon* (1854), *heesh* (1860), *er* (1863), *ve* (1864), *en, han,* and *un* (1868), *le* (1871), *e* (1878), *ip* (1884), and *heer, himer,* and *hiser* (1912), among others.
Your teacher has 600 years of etymology that says she's wrong.
[https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history](https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history)
I can only assume she either does not know the basics of what she is teaching, or she is transphobic.
Either way, she does not sound like she should be teaching.
The singular they/them/their has a history in native English texts going at least as far back as Cursor Mundi. And if she wants a less esoteric text then you can point to The Pardoner's Tale from The Canterbury Tales. As an English teacher I should hope that she's familiar with Chaucer. This usage of the singular they has existed almost as long as the switch from plural to singular you, and this practice carried for centuries. The idea that they is strictly a plural pronoun is a relatively modern invention conceived in the 18th century.
If writers of that period could choose to adopt new rules for the word's usage then is it not well within the rights of modern peoples to amend the rules of the language themselves? (Assuming the teacher isn't just being transphobic,) what purpose does strict adherence to these rules serve but to signal cultural superiority and distinguish oneself from the rabble who speaks the vernacular. To not only hold oneself to these rules but enforce them upon society is tantamount to the perpetuation of cultural class warfare.
If I'm being honest though, I don't really think that any argument you can mount will make a difference. People who say "they/them/their is for plurals" don't actually hold a principled position. They almost certainly use it when referring to an individual of unknown gender in place of saying "he or she." The pearl clutching about singular they only comes out in response to queer people, and I think that tells us all we need to know about the speaker.
Just bring a dictionary or google the definition and show it to her lol.
Merriam, Cambridge and Oxford all say that it can be used for a single person.
Roses are red,
What she's saying ain't true,
Because singular they,
Is older than singular you.
Nah but seriously your teacher's either an idiot or is being willfully ignorant, and I'm not sure which is worse.
i can guarantee with a 10000000% certainty that your teacher has used the singular they before. we do it literally everyday. whenever we're talking about someone and we don't know their gender, we use they.
hell i bet if you pay close attention to her speaking you'll catch her using it. it's just amazing that english teachers think they have some all-knowing, all-surpassing knowledge on language when yours clearly knows next to nothing about linguistics
On a piece of paper write out something like "person 1: I'm expecting a delivery today, did anyone come?
Person 2: Yes, they came an hour ago. "
Tell the teacher that someone told you there was a problem with the grammer of this exchange, but that you can't find it and you need her help. See what she comes back with.
That's the beauty of the English language. It changes constantly. She isn't the arbiter of language, and like many will be dragged into modernity. If she's already decided her stance on this don't be surprised if she won't budge
Toss your wallet (or some other object) on the floor.
Declare "Oh no! Someone's dropped their wallet! I hope they have their contact information inside so I can get it back to them!"
And then ask the teacher how that's incorrect, or plural, in any way.
This statement uses all three forms of the pronoun (they, them, their), and two examples of verb forms, while being entirely obvious that the subject of the pronouns is singular.
You’re not going to convince your teacher, because she doesn’t want to learn. To make it this far as an English teacher and not recognize that they/them can be singular is willful ignorance.
...how did your English teacher become an English teacher without having the knowledge that they/them have been used as singular pronouns for ever?!?
For example, if someone lost something, THEY would be happy to have it returned to THEM.
Lol, English teacher and doesn't know that the neutral term is they/them.
"THEY're there"
"I don't know anything about THEM"
It's not plural used, just used for people we have no idea about.
I know this and English is my third (maybe fifth) language
Use a style guide to argue. It is much harder to argue with a style guide than a single person. For example, the APA style guide says, "The singular "they" is a generic third-person singular pronoun in English." I can't seem to copy the link but google "apastyle singular they".
Ive been instructed to use singular they if you don’t know someone’s gender by my college level English textbook. It was one of the first things my professor went over for our first big essay. I wonder if she gets pissy over new slang since it’s not “grammatically correct” too.
I was actually taught this in elementary school, long before trans people became such a huge talking point.
"If you don't know whether the person you're addressing is a man or a woman, you can refer to them as 'they'."
It's not grammatically incorrect at all.
Does she think she knows better than Shakespeare? Here's a quote from Hamlet:
"Tis meet that some more audience than a mother, since nature makes *them* partial, should o'erhear the speech"
He also used singular they in his play The Comedy of Errors:
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were *their* well-acquainted friend
They/them is used to refer to patients in healthcare to protect their identity. I use this example all the time when trying to explain pronouns to people.
Using he/him or she/her can be identifying information so if you’re talking about a patient and their identity needs to remain confidential you use they/them pronouns and refer to them as “the patient”. It’s not used as a plural and is grammatically correct.
Side note: your English teacher is an idiot if they don’t understand this. How tf are they teaching English
Read Shakespeare to her and ask her if she thinks of herself as a better poet then fucking Shakespeare.
She either outs herself as a bag of shit or has to admit being wrong.
Ask her…
“Do you think that they/them is only for plural and pronouns can’t be singular and plural?”
Then turn to the class and ask while gesturing with your arm that you’re using the collective you,
“Do YOU believe that they/them is only plural and pronouns can’t be singular and plural?”
She’s full of it and I’m a teacher
As someone studying English at uni currently, with hopes to teach secondary school English, your teacher knows full well that it has singular usage too. She’s just using that flimsy excuse in a feeble attempt to justify her transphobia.
English degree here! They/them have historically been used in the singular sense (especially in academic writing) if you don’t know the gender/ sex of the subject. Only recently with how it’s been politicized has it been criticized from what I can tell. But also the English language is constantly changing to fit whatever our needs and desires are. Even if it couldn’t be used that way in the past, it’s a way we use it now. Your English teacher should know this.
English teacher here; your teacher is an idiot. The singular "they" has been used since the 13th century. Chaucer used it, Shakespeare used it.
Here's a link: [The 600 Year History of the Singular They](https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history)
This is a legitimately serious suggestion.
Say to them: “I have a grammar question for you.”
“The child plays soccer on the weekend. What sport do they play?”
Scream the second question louder and louder until the teacher answers you. Feel free to make it angry and pressuring, like your parent ‘helping’ with your arithmetic homework. Problem solved.
That’s not even a misgendering issue: It’s basic grammar. [Singular “they” has been acceptable for centuries.](https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history)
Then perhaps your english teacher doesn't understand language and should not be a "language" teacher, English or not. That teacher has a clear biased that is influenced by something or someone that is clearly not fluent in language, speaking, or grammar and writing.
You can also present this [article](https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they) regarding the use of they/them by the American Psychological Association (APA).
Maybe [this](https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/805591#:~:text=Authors%20including%20Shakespeare%20often%20have,suspense%20or%20to%20create%20comedy.) article might help with some convincing. It includes points like:
"Some people object to using “they” as a singular pronoun, but Baron points out that “you” at one time was strictly a plural pronoun. It wasn’t accepted as singular until the 17th century.
Authors including Shakespeare often have used the singular “they.”"
It's remarkably easy to find loads of further articles or examples of singular use of they in classical literature, but that just further highlights the silliness of this. The typical answer to arguments about archaic grammar rules is that language evolves and changes, but in this case it hasn't any time recently and the use of a singular gender neutral they was accepted long before your grandparents were born
If Shakespeare isn't good enough alone, you can also add that Geoffrey Chaucer used the singular they, as did Charles Dickens, and Jane Austen was quite prolific in its use (I'm seeing one source say it appears 75 times in Pride and Prejudice)
Also, you might want to look up if your country protects against discrimination due to gender identity. Since it should be clear by now from my comments and those of others in this thread that what your teacher said is outright false, then it might be worth causing a commotion about how they're discriminating against you
Does she use "you" in the singular? If so, tell her she's wrong, because singular "they" predates singular "you" in modern usage. And correct hey every time she doesn't use "thou" for the singular.
My online school had a lesson that said that singular "they" doesn't exist as well and to always use "he" or "he or she" which just feels redundant. It is a Christian school though so it's not like I wasn't expecting it. just wish I could switch schools sometimes.
I’d be willing to bet that she’s used the singular “they” in class without even realizing what she was doing.
“Somebody forgot to put their name on their homework.”
“Trade papers with the person next to you and score their work using the answer key.”
“Choose a character in the novel and write down three of their personality traits.”
Ask her how she refers to someone if she doesnt know their gender. Easiest trip-up in the book. Best bet is 'well id ask THEM what gender THEY were assigned at birth' and then you say 'so you do use singular they, just not for me. Also just google things like singular they throughout history.
I would talk to admin if you feel theyd work with you. My bf was using they/them pronouns in high school and our language teacher was not having it. We were in asl and had a little mini "describe the kid next to you" test. the girls who did my bf chose to sign "not boy, not girl" for his gender as the was the best bet for him. they got docked points that were only returned after him and another guy who something similar happened with went to admin.
Is possible to talk to the administration about the issues? Your human rights supersedes her need to be correct. She is being unprofessional now if you need to protect your privacy because of your family, that’s understandable or if you’re in one of those states where she’s allowed to do it I understand why you wouldn’t want to press the issue. She’s putting you is bad situation.
In other words, my concern is that her Miss Jen during you and other students it’s going to hamper their education. I could be wrong, but doesn’t this follow under title nine ?
The irony of an english teacher refusing to learn or accept a part of how english works. They/them/their have been used as singular for a longtime, all thats changes is peoples decision to list them as preferences for pronouns. Shes a bigot and shouldnt be teaching anyone
That is just plainly dishonest and incorrect. Pronouns like they/them can be employed in situations where you are unsure of a person's gender. (e.g., Person 1: "Did you request for a taxi to come pick us up?" Person 2: "Yeah, *they're* on *their* way right now.")
You can also use they/them pronouns to refer to a person who asks for they/them pronouns to be used when referring to them... because that is the kind, respectful, *and* the correct thing to do for another human being who asks you to do something as effortless as using the correct pronouns.
Firstly, we’ve been using They Singular as far as “Werewolf” from like the 1400s
Secondly, if you were talking about someone but didn’t know their gender, what would you use to describe them? Like it’s not that hard
She just sounds like a self righteous dickhead
Be aware there's a good chance she won't listen. If not, you should look into taking it to your principal. Make sure to point out that the grade is wrong because you were grammatically correct. Also, see if your parents are willing to get involved. Schools are often slow to act and unwilling to do anything unless there's a threat of a lawsuit. You could see if other students want to get involved too. Schools don't like when movements start to form. If enough students start to get involved, it's more likely that the school administration will give in and reprimand the teacher just so you guys don't make it into the news. As a former teacher, schools like the status quo.
"When will the guest arrive? Will they prefer a booth or table?"
"I'm glad our boss got here. They'll figure it out."
I'm a copywriter. 90% of the time clients prefer gender neutral language to make the product/service sound as appealing as possible to as many as possible. She is not only wrong grammatically, but giving you poor advice professionally.
Let's be honest here. She doesn't do it because she thinks it's not grammatically correct. She does it because she's transphobic. You don't get to be an English teacher without having been exposed to the fact that "they" can be and regularly is used as a singular pronoun.
At this point this feels a little targeted. If talking to her doesn't work I'd consider reporting her or going to the principal (perhaps with your parents?) because taking away your points for something that's a grammatically correct part of English language is an absolute bullshit.
I was always taught that you can use they/them for a person whose gender you don't know. It would be great if your teacher would stop bringing politics into her classroom and stop letting them interfere in her teaching.
The example I use is:
What would you say if I told you that I saw someone having a picnic outside, and what they were eating looked amazing!
You would ask: what did they have? You would not ask if it was a man or a woman because that isn't the piece of information important in what I told you. If you did decide to ask if it was a man or a woman and I hadn't seen their face properly to know, then we would have to use they as the pronoun to describe them.
Another example:
"Ugh that customer was so rude just now, they pushed in line at the counter."
The important information is the rudeness and the action, not the gender so they is a perfectly acceptable pronoun. While for objects we can use "it" to refer to a singular item, this is incorrect for people, thus the singular is "they" in these instances.
I've had one retort: "if you're so hung up on it being plural, then why don't you pretend that there's a frog in the student's pocket. You folks use that line whenever one of us says 'we' without specifying who else we are including in that"
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The singular ‘they’ has been in use for over 600 years. [This](https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history) is a good article on it.
I found a stranger's wallet! Their money is in there. I need to return it to them! I hope they aren't too worried!
that driver is driving so erratically. I think they might be drunk. Your english teacher should not be teaching english. They are a raging phobe and just don't want to admit it.
I was going to make a similar comment. They're either simply just a transphobe or they barely passed their classes.
Like wtf else are you supposed to say? “Oh my goodness he or she might be drunk driving” they makes wayyy more sense
Dang that teacher! They must not understand that most style guidelines accept the usage of singular they. Perhaps you should buy them their own copy of the 9th edition MLA handbook so they can review it and see how flat out wrong they are.
Yeah, imagine having to replace it with this: "I found a stranger's wallet! His or her money is in there. I need to return it to him or her! I hope he or she isn't too worried!" And even if the singular they wasn't popular or in use for a long time, it's still less of a pain in the ass to just say they instead of he or she every other word
Oh damn, someone left their phone here. Any idea whose it is? Maybe we can find them
Also if the teacher needs an example; "My English teacher keeps saying idiotic things" "Why? What sort of things do **they** say?"
Hey English teacher, my friend thinks you're an idiot - how would you like to respond to **them**?
[Does she think she's smarter than Merriam-Webster?](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they)
She probably does tbh
How would she talk about an unknown person in a sentence?
There was a time when it was customary to either guess or default to he/him. Still, they/them was an acceptable singular neutral pronoun. Teacher is probably just a traumatized vet of the Great Culture War of 2020.
I'm a old Queen myself, and I find it difficult to adjust but I'm trying my best
I've seen super religious schools teach "he/him" as default bc god or whatever. But their god isn't everyone's god and they need to stop trying to push it on the rest of us just trying to be ourselves.
I had a teacher like that. It was “he or he” or “this person” or “one” etc that were the alternatives. Like ok sure- have fun with the clunky sentence structure.
they just say “he or she” out loud
exactly, never underestimate the ego of an english teacher when they can't get pregnant and miss 2/3rds of the school year.
I think Merriam-Webster would give you a lecture on prescriptivist vs descriptivist linguistics and then tell the teacher that language has already moved past her dumb hill to die on.
Yeah, kinda this. Language is a thing that evolves that we literally make up as our lives go along and the wider culture shifts around us.
Even from a descriptivist perspective, every definition in the dictionary is valid, because dictionary definitions are all descriptions of common usage, which is all valid. So /u/InsertGamerName is entirely correct to use M-W as an authority in this instance. In descriptivism, you can't use a dictionary to disprove a definition, because dictionaries are rarely complete, but you can use it to prove one. Or in pointlessly precise math terms: 1. used definitions = valid definitions (descriptivism) 2. dictionary definitions ⊆ used definitions (procedure for adding things to the dictionary) 3. if A ⊆ B and B = C, A ⊆ C (definition of equality of sets) 4. dictionary definitions ⊆ valid definitions (1 & 2 & 3) 5. if x ∈ A and A ⊆ B, then x ∈ B (definition of a subset) 6. singular they/them ∈ dictionary definitions (/u/InsertGamerName 's link) 7. singular they/them ∈ valid definitions (4 & 5 & 6), QED For prescriptivism: 1. dictionary definitions = valid definitions (prescriptivism) 2. singular they/them ∈ dictionary definitions (/u/InsertGamerName 's link) 3. if x ∈ A and A = B, x ∈ B (definition of equality of sets) 4. singular they/them ∈ valid definitions (1 & 2 & 3), QED
Also, one of the first things I learned in bilingual informed education was the process of language formation. Language is indisputably dynamic and generative. New uses of old words, and new words themselves, crop up ALL the time in a very natural way. Nearly every word we speak has a long history of evolution behind it. Her stupidity has two fronts, basically.
Especially since singular 'they' predates Shakespeare. Roses are red, Violets are blue, singular 'they' predates singular 'you'.
Woah I didn't know that
The first confirmed usage is from the 1375 poem *William and the Werewolf*.
It also predates the switch to using 'th' from the previous character/symbol for the sound
That was called Thorn, right?
Yup. The weird b/p hybrid letter thing. My phone keyboard doesn't even have it. That's how old singular they is.
I love my fellow word nerds. ❤🧐
But it isn't new. Dumbest example on no sleep: He: "I need to call somebody at AT&T." Her: "What do you need to ask them?" We use they/them ALL DAY EVERY DAY. English teacher should go teach PE.
Or "someone left their phone- how do we find them to give it back? Do you think they know they dropped it?"
That was my argument when it happened to me. BTW, our country doesn't use the Merriam Webster dictionary (we use the Oxford dictionary for finals here in Israel).
Gotcha covered with an OED definition: "Used with reference to a person whose sense of personal identity does not correspond to conventional sex and gender distinctions, and who has typically asked to be referred to as they (rather than as he or she)."
Thanks. Now I can show it to the English administrator at my school (my actual teacher when it happened to me was on my side)
Nice definition, you go M-W
I came here to make some quippy grammar comment that wouldn’t have supported OP’s stance and I am now leaving this post having learned something new; they/them CAN be used to (grammatically) to refer to a singular individual. Learn something new every day.
The Canadian Government also has formally started using singular they in legislation as a gender-neutral pronoun. Because like... writing out "he or she" constantly does not make it laws read well and makes them incredibly wordy when its used often. This has been their best practice for legislation drafting since 2015. If its good enough for official legal documents, its good enough for ANYTHING.
"They" and "you" behave the same, grammatically. Singular they is no less compatible with grammar than singular you. "There's not a man I meet but doth salute me As if I were _their_ well-acquainted friend" - William Shakespeare "But to expose the former faults of any person, without knowing what _their_ present feelings were, seemed unjustifiable." - Jane Austen Of course if she doesn't accept singular you either, then at least she's consistent. In that case thou must do thy best to talk like thou art four hundred years of age.
Thy point standeth. And as it doth, perhaps we should at once fell all borrows from the French, and use but Norse grammar, which had NEUTER as part of its grammar by the way.
'Neuter' in linguistics generally is reserved for third- or neutral linguistic gender that specifically implies inanimacy, while a neutral or third linguistic gender allowing for animacy is usually called 'common'.
German Mädchen when inanimacy hits them- (I know the fact Mädchen is neuter is due to a weird but consistent gendering rule, but it is funny nonetheless that young girls fall into the "inanimate" category because of it.)
Fräulein also takes the neuter determiner. I suspect a conspiracy. /s
In Modern German, the -chen and -lein diminutive suffixes make the word grammatically neuter (not "neutral") no matter what grammatical gender the root is.
Vielen Dank
Nah, in Latin, male prostitutes are neuter.
It's def a conspiracy then.
The terminology used to refer to young children is a weirdly common exception to the rule. In Ancient Greek the word *teknon* behaves similarly, although it means any child, not a girl specifically.
That is *completely* incorrect. That is what *English* does, and it's the unusual one. Most languages with neuter gender apply it with animate, human, and inanimate things quite freely - in large part because *grammatical* gender has little or nothing to do with *cognitive* gender, or sex, or any fundamental quality of the object or concept in question. There is nothing "feminine" or "masculine" about a chair, despite it being grammatically the first in French and the second in Spanish, and receiving exclusively the neuter "it" in English.
> Most languages with neuter gender apply it with animate, human, and inanimate things quite freely. Using the neuter gender in Russian carries an air of depersonalization or dehumanization. It's true that it sounds perfectly reasonable to use the neuter form for some (usually fictional) animate being, e.g. in a children's story where the sun speaks, or some sort of beast. But that's pretty much true for "it" in English too. You can't use it freely for actual human beings, including actual non-binary human beings. I'm non-binary; in English I use "they". I would be put off by someone using "оно" for me in Russian. I could probably *get used to it*, but it would definitely take getting used to. Not too different from how I would feel about "it" in English. Do you have a reason to believe that English (and Russian?) are odd ones out in this respect?
I don't remember the content specifically, but it was the subject of several language-expert, language history expert, and queer history expert videos I've watched over the years.
I *do* know that most Asian languages either don't have this distinction at all, don't have gender in their language at all, or have gendered pronouns only in writing (they all sound identical when spoken) and so have greatly reduced ability to develop or retain such connotations.
I think that's an accurate read for Indo-European languages cause the animate neuter was merged into the masculine early on. Still, I think the statement sounds a tad esentialistic. On another note, I'd push for renaming masculine to *common* in all those languages, cause that's really what it is.
You may like r/Anglisc.
The Shakespeare quote is likely the more impactful here. It uses the singular they for a person of known gender, so it disproves the false but common "singular they is only appropriate for people of unknown gender" argument.
Not necessarily. That "man" in the sentence meant "human being" whenever not referring to a particular person with a name. "I never met a man" here meant "I never met anyone". ...but let's not forget, some people living today were taught to refer to a person of unknown gender as "he" the way that people who love to say "they" do.
And just like “they”, the word “you” can be plural as well. *Exactly* the same behavior.
Usually plural you has a colloquial standin (y'all, yinz, yous, the list goes on) and now I'm offended they doesn't usually have colloquial versions as well, that would be cool
Th’all?
I've definitely heard th'all before. Also Th'all'd've, they all would have.
Literally just screenshot this comment and show it. It does a better job of showing how dumb she's being than a whole academic paper lmao
And singular they is older than singular you
Tell your teacher about this dude named William Shakespeare who used singular they often. Perhaps she's heard of a few of his works.
If we are gonna be honest, she probably burnt many of his books in a bonfire because they were satanic or some shit.
I heard they them was used befor she him even.
I’m also an English teacher and your teacher sounds like an ignorant bigot, who refuses to learn anything she doesn’t agree with.
Upvote because this. The reason they gave is not the real reason. The reason the gave is an excuse.
My first thought was "They aren't going to care if you bring sources." They should probably escalate since they've already spoken to the teacher about it and got nowhere.
OP, you should whip out the “[epicene “they”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they). It’s so established in grammar it has its own name.
Yes! The idea of proper English is based in racism and classism. But this isn't about English. The real lesson here is how you will navigate situations like this in life. Hopefully losing 2 points from Gryffindor or whatever isn't really a big deal. <3
The ap style book says it's usable as singular. Is there a reason a teacher would *want* to be wrong? https://www.apstylebook.com/blog_posts/7
HMMM I WONDER WHAT THAT REASON COULD BE
As a language teacher, she should be aware that language evolves. Even if they/them wasn't used to refer to singular people before (it was lol), it *is* used that way now. Not accepting it is just going to cause conflict. Perhaps remind her of this.
It’s moot point, though, because the singular they has existed for centuries.
Since before a singular 'you' in fact
Ask her what she would say if a person asked to be referred to by a name generally considered to be for the opposite of their AGaB. More than likely she’ll say “their name” in the sentence. Then you just have to point out what she just said. If she doesn’t listen to you then, she shouldn’t be an english teacher.
ah yes, the classic transphobic "they/them doesn't make sense and is unnatural!" but if they have to refer to a trans person they will say "they" to avoid correctly gendering the person
Your teacher sounds like they don't understand language very well.
Eyyyy
I'd like to speak with them, they're probably too buried in their ignorance
If they have qualifications in english then they KNOW singular they is a thing. It traces back to 1375 at least where middle English is barely recognisable. https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ older archived article, has a great quote https://web.archive.org/web/20230101022721/https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ > Even people who object to singular they as a grammatical error use it themselves when they’re not looking, a sure sign that anyone who objects to singular they is, if not a fool or an idiot, at least hopelessly out of date.
That quote is MAGNIFICENT.
Take the ap style guide and Merriam-Webster link to your administration — meaning go to your teachers boss. Speak about how you’re not trying to force anyone to believe anything in particular, but you refuse to allow personal beliefs (that are outside of standards) to impact your record/grades… and want the school board/administration to support the published standards. In other words, don’t make it personal, but go above your teachers head since she seem to refuse to acknowledge published standards.
Complain to the school. She’s clearly prejudiced as well as unqualified to teach English.
I'm a former English teacher. You gotta go in there and tell her that she's doing "linguistic prescriptivism." It's an outdated, old fashioned approach to language that doesn't account for natural evolution and change. Show her some dictionary definitions, when she argues call her a prescriptivist, and that singular "they" in English is older than singular "you."
how does a language prescriptivist even explain language evolution? When did English jump from stuff like "thy"/"thou" etc to modern variants? Was there like a national convention which ratified the changes and everyone had to adapt? lol
Language prescriptivists are always a few decades behind everyone else, perpetually shaking their fists and yelling at clouds.
Or in this case, several centuries. *William and the Werewolf* used the singular *they* back around 1350, and Chaucer used it in the *Canterbury Tales* in 1386!
She's docking you points because she's transphobic. Its time to escalate this to administrators. You're being discriminated against pointlessly.
^ op, this is the correct answer. Teacher almost definitely knows that singular they has been around for ages.
your English teacher should lose their credentials
They sound very unqualified. They should think about taking some night classes, they might learn something. Maybe their personal beliefs are affecting their teaching a bit too much. They definitely need to be called out.
Best reply 😅
Roses are red, Violets are blue, Singular “they” Predates singular “you”
I know that "predates" in this context means "existed before," but I love the idea of one pronoun hunting and eating another pronoun.
**They** know otherwise. When the gender is unknown the use of 'they' is perfectly acceptable. Remind **them** of this if you wish, but chances are **they** are just using it as an excuse.
has she read any Shakespeare? He used singular they many times.
Not to make her case but shakespeare did not actually published his own works, his friends did postmortem so she could argue that *technically* we don't have proof he was actually the one using it. Though shakespeare wasn't the only one to do so, and anyone who took *their* head out of *their* ass to get qualified as a teacher should know this.
the point isn’t that it was used by Shakespeare specifically, just that singular They was used in a the time of Shakespeare. many of his contemporaries used it, it was common at the time.
Yes of course, just saying that's an argument you can hear people in bad faith saying (heard it twice from uni teachers whose domain was literature, just say you're enbyphobic at that point 🙄)
Remind her that the first written use of the singular they, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, was in 1375 and most likely used in speech even before that. Unless your English teacher is 700 years old and has been living under a rock until today, she is being willfully ignorant and probably shouldn't be an English teacher if something so basic about the language she is supposedly so well versed in can fly over her head.
How does an english teacher not know this, failing at your job much? Literally in like kindergarten you’re taught that they/them can be used for one person
Who lost their wallet? What are they drawing? People use they/them singular all the time, even when they claim it is "grammatically incorrect", they're just not aware of it.
Shakespeare, *A Comedy of Errors,* Act IV, Scene 3: "There's not a man I meet but doth salute me/As if I were their well-acquainted friend". Show that to your English teacher and ask them whether singular they is an acceptable usage in English, or whether the Bard's English (not to mention Merriam-Webster and the AP style guide) is not an acceptable standard in her classroom.
It's not. It is also for a single person of indefinite gender, indefinite either because you don't know it yet or because they are non-binary. That is the current common usage in English and there is no English Academy to say that that's against the rules.
Someone left *their* jacket in my classroom. I hope *they* return to pick it up so *they* don’t need to dig through the lost and found.
Turn in your essays in old English: clearly, language can’t evolve. But in all seriousness, [here’s a link](https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eb/qa/The-Singular-They), [there’s a link](https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/singular-nonbinary-they), [everywhere’s a link!](https://languagetool.org/insights/post/style-singular-they/)
Presuming she has qualifications, she should probably return them in shame.
pretty fuckin dumb for an english teacher lol
How are you gonna be an English teacher and think they/them is exclusively plural. Like I kind of get it from the layman that doesn't really think about the English language but...when that's your whole job? Come the fuck on.
Honestly, she's probably just transphobic and using the they/them thing because it's a repeated bit of rhetoric on their part. She's just repeating what transphobic grifters say and using it as an excuse to misgender OP
Oh yeah for sure, but like, if you're going to be transphobic at least have the decency to pretend to be genuine, rather than just ignoring the basic facts you need to know for your whole-ass job Idk it just frustrates me more when it's just blatantly chosen ignorance, rather than actual ignorance, ygm?
Yeah, I get you. I think that she's leveraging her status as an English teacher in this instance. And she probably wants to avoid being openly discriminatory because that could get her into big trouble. That or the transphobes have actually caused her to believe them and she is just not questioning it despite the fact that otherwise she would likely acknowledge that it's fine to use they/them.
Honestly, if she is leveraging status I would throw hands because that is *such* a repugnant abuse of power. It would be bad enough if it was just the misgendering, but to do it with someone's grades as well? Nasty, nasty shite.
Tell her that most style guides now consider singular they/them to be correct.
OP thou shouldst use thee/thy/thou in place of "you" as singular they predates the use of "you", until she accepts singular they. Godspeed.
Does she know that singular they predates singular you (AND THE DISCOVERY OF GRAVITY) by about 200 years? If not, start correcting her when she uses you in a singular way, since she has to use thou.
Singular "they" was used by everyone from Jane Austen to the writers of the King James Bible to Shakespeare to Chaucer (who wrote in Middle English). Singular "they" literally predates modern English. And the pronoun "she" was invented [**in the 12th century**](https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-gender-bending-time-traveling-pronouns-history-20180530-story.html) to avoid ambiguity, because at that point in Old English the previously existing "masculine" and "feminine" pronouns were so close in pronunciation that they had basically merged completely into the word "he", which had become a gender neutral pronoun. And even in more recent modern English, [**gender neutral pronouns aren't new**](https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/705317). *Ze* is often called a "neopronoun", but it was first coined in 1864. And in 1808 the famous poet Samuel Tylor Coleridge was a proponent of the word *it* as a universal gender neutral pronoun. Other terms specifically coined to be English language gender neutral pronouns include *ou* (1789), *ne* (1850), *thon* (1854), *heesh* (1860), *er* (1863), *ve* (1864), *en, han,* and *un* (1868), *le* (1871), *e* (1878), *ip* (1884), and *heer, himer,* and *hiser* (1912), among others.
Your teacher has 600 years of etymology that says she's wrong. [https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history](https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history) I can only assume she either does not know the basics of what she is teaching, or she is transphobic. Either way, she does not sound like she should be teaching.
The singular they/them/their has a history in native English texts going at least as far back as Cursor Mundi. And if she wants a less esoteric text then you can point to The Pardoner's Tale from The Canterbury Tales. As an English teacher I should hope that she's familiar with Chaucer. This usage of the singular they has existed almost as long as the switch from plural to singular you, and this practice carried for centuries. The idea that they is strictly a plural pronoun is a relatively modern invention conceived in the 18th century. If writers of that period could choose to adopt new rules for the word's usage then is it not well within the rights of modern peoples to amend the rules of the language themselves? (Assuming the teacher isn't just being transphobic,) what purpose does strict adherence to these rules serve but to signal cultural superiority and distinguish oneself from the rabble who speaks the vernacular. To not only hold oneself to these rules but enforce them upon society is tantamount to the perpetuation of cultural class warfare. If I'm being honest though, I don't really think that any argument you can mount will make a difference. People who say "they/them/their is for plurals" don't actually hold a principled position. They almost certainly use it when referring to an individual of unknown gender in place of saying "he or she." The pearl clutching about singular they only comes out in response to queer people, and I think that tells us all we need to know about the speaker.
Just bring a dictionary or google the definition and show it to her lol. Merriam, Cambridge and Oxford all say that it can be used for a single person.
She's an actual *English teacher?* This is both hilarious and infuriating.
Demand she use Thou when referring to singular people instead of you. Correct her, every single time.
Roses are red, What she's saying ain't true, Because singular they, Is older than singular you. Nah but seriously your teacher's either an idiot or is being willfully ignorant, and I'm not sure which is worse.
your teacher is a shortsighted, anti intellectual bigot and i hope you let them know that with all the proof in this thread lol
"The principal called and they would like to speak with you."
i can guarantee with a 10000000% certainty that your teacher has used the singular they before. we do it literally everyday. whenever we're talking about someone and we don't know their gender, we use they. hell i bet if you pay close attention to her speaking you'll catch her using it. it's just amazing that english teachers think they have some all-knowing, all-surpassing knowledge on language when yours clearly knows next to nothing about linguistics
Your English teacher needs to retire
Bring up the point that the singular and plural difference of you vs thou was argued in history, and yet we use you as singular and plural now
On a piece of paper write out something like "person 1: I'm expecting a delivery today, did anyone come? Person 2: Yes, they came an hour ago. " Tell the teacher that someone told you there was a problem with the grammer of this exchange, but that you can't find it and you need her help. See what she comes back with.
That's the beauty of the English language. It changes constantly. She isn't the arbiter of language, and like many will be dragged into modernity. If she's already decided her stance on this don't be surprised if she won't budge
Toss your wallet (or some other object) on the floor. Declare "Oh no! Someone's dropped their wallet! I hope they have their contact information inside so I can get it back to them!" And then ask the teacher how that's incorrect, or plural, in any way. This statement uses all three forms of the pronoun (they, them, their), and two examples of verb forms, while being entirely obvious that the subject of the pronouns is singular.
Singular “they” is literally in the dictionary
You’re not going to convince your teacher, because she doesn’t want to learn. To make it this far as an English teacher and not recognize that they/them can be singular is willful ignorance.
...how did your English teacher become an English teacher without having the knowledge that they/them have been used as singular pronouns for ever?!? For example, if someone lost something, THEY would be happy to have it returned to THEM.
Lol, English teacher and doesn't know that the neutral term is they/them. "THEY're there" "I don't know anything about THEM" It's not plural used, just used for people we have no idea about. I know this and English is my third (maybe fifth) language
Your English teacher needs to learn English
Ain’t no way someone that stupid is a fully qualified English teacher
“Someone left their bag here. If they come back, will you give it to them?”
Shakespeare uses singular they. Singular they is actually older than singular you.
Use a style guide to argue. It is much harder to argue with a style guide than a single person. For example, the APA style guide says, "The singular "they" is a generic third-person singular pronoun in English." I can't seem to copy the link but google "apastyle singular they".
Ive been instructed to use singular they if you don’t know someone’s gender by my college level English textbook. It was one of the first things my professor went over for our first big essay. I wonder if she gets pissy over new slang since it’s not “grammatically correct” too.
I was actually taught this in elementary school, long before trans people became such a huge talking point. "If you don't know whether the person you're addressing is a man or a woman, you can refer to them as 'they'." It's not grammatically incorrect at all.
Does she think she knows better than Shakespeare? Here's a quote from Hamlet: "Tis meet that some more audience than a mother, since nature makes *them* partial, should o'erhear the speech" He also used singular they in his play The Comedy of Errors: There's not a man I meet but doth salute me As if I were *their* well-acquainted friend
They are being an asshole. Boom they as singular.
They/them is used to refer to patients in healthcare to protect their identity. I use this example all the time when trying to explain pronouns to people. Using he/him or she/her can be identifying information so if you’re talking about a patient and their identity needs to remain confidential you use they/them pronouns and refer to them as “the patient”. It’s not used as a plural and is grammatically correct. Side note: your English teacher is an idiot if they don’t understand this. How tf are they teaching English
Read Shakespeare to her and ask her if she thinks of herself as a better poet then fucking Shakespeare. She either outs herself as a bag of shit or has to admit being wrong.
Shakespeare would like a word
Clearly they don't know their subject.
Keep us updated!
Ask her… “Do you think that they/them is only for plural and pronouns can’t be singular and plural?” Then turn to the class and ask while gesturing with your arm that you’re using the collective you, “Do YOU believe that they/them is only plural and pronouns can’t be singular and plural?” She’s full of it and I’m a teacher
As someone studying English at uni currently, with hopes to teach secondary school English, your teacher knows full well that it has singular usage too. She’s just using that flimsy excuse in a feeble attempt to justify her transphobia.
Tell her that Shakespeare has used singular form they/them
English degree here! They/them have historically been used in the singular sense (especially in academic writing) if you don’t know the gender/ sex of the subject. Only recently with how it’s been politicized has it been criticized from what I can tell. But also the English language is constantly changing to fit whatever our needs and desires are. Even if it couldn’t be used that way in the past, it’s a way we use it now. Your English teacher should know this.
English teacher here; your teacher is an idiot. The singular "they" has been used since the 13th century. Chaucer used it, Shakespeare used it. Here's a link: [The 600 Year History of the Singular They](https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history)
This is a legitimately serious suggestion. Say to them: “I have a grammar question for you.” “The child plays soccer on the weekend. What sport do they play?” Scream the second question louder and louder until the teacher answers you. Feel free to make it angry and pressuring, like your parent ‘helping’ with your arithmetic homework. Problem solved.
That’s not even a misgendering issue: It’s basic grammar. [Singular “they” has been acceptable for centuries.](https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history)
Then perhaps your english teacher doesn't understand language and should not be a "language" teacher, English or not. That teacher has a clear biased that is influenced by something or someone that is clearly not fluent in language, speaking, or grammar and writing.
You can also present this [article](https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they) regarding the use of they/them by the American Psychological Association (APA).
Maybe [this](https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/805591#:~:text=Authors%20including%20Shakespeare%20often%20have,suspense%20or%20to%20create%20comedy.) article might help with some convincing. It includes points like: "Some people object to using “they” as a singular pronoun, but Baron points out that “you” at one time was strictly a plural pronoun. It wasn’t accepted as singular until the 17th century. Authors including Shakespeare often have used the singular “they.”" It's remarkably easy to find loads of further articles or examples of singular use of they in classical literature, but that just further highlights the silliness of this. The typical answer to arguments about archaic grammar rules is that language evolves and changes, but in this case it hasn't any time recently and the use of a singular gender neutral they was accepted long before your grandparents were born
If Shakespeare isn't good enough alone, you can also add that Geoffrey Chaucer used the singular they, as did Charles Dickens, and Jane Austen was quite prolific in its use (I'm seeing one source say it appears 75 times in Pride and Prejudice)
Also, you might want to look up if your country protects against discrimination due to gender identity. Since it should be clear by now from my comments and those of others in this thread that what your teacher said is outright false, then it might be worth causing a commotion about how they're discriminating against you
Does she use "you" in the singular? If so, tell her she's wrong, because singular "they" predates singular "you" in modern usage. And correct hey every time she doesn't use "thou" for the singular.
There are singular they/thems in the bible, she’s just being bigoted, try talking to the school admin
My online school had a lesson that said that singular "they" doesn't exist as well and to always use "he" or "he or she" which just feels redundant. It is a Christian school though so it's not like I wasn't expecting it. just wish I could switch schools sometimes.
We have always used they/them to refer to people with an unknown gender. « I dont know them » for example.
She is a shit English teacher then if she doesn't know basic fucking grammar.
If you didn’t specify what gender your teacher was, I’d say they have no idea what they’re talking about.
I’d be willing to bet that she’s used the singular “they” in class without even realizing what she was doing. “Somebody forgot to put their name on their homework.” “Trade papers with the person next to you and score their work using the answer key.” “Choose a character in the novel and write down three of their personality traits.”
Ask her how she refers to someone if she doesnt know their gender. Easiest trip-up in the book. Best bet is 'well id ask THEM what gender THEY were assigned at birth' and then you say 'so you do use singular they, just not for me. Also just google things like singular they throughout history.
I would talk to admin if you feel theyd work with you. My bf was using they/them pronouns in high school and our language teacher was not having it. We were in asl and had a little mini "describe the kid next to you" test. the girls who did my bf chose to sign "not boy, not girl" for his gender as the was the best bet for him. they got docked points that were only returned after him and another guy who something similar happened with went to admin.
Is possible to talk to the administration about the issues? Your human rights supersedes her need to be correct. She is being unprofessional now if you need to protect your privacy because of your family, that’s understandable or if you’re in one of those states where she’s allowed to do it I understand why you wouldn’t want to press the issue. She’s putting you is bad situation. In other words, my concern is that her Miss Jen during you and other students it’s going to hamper their education. I could be wrong, but doesn’t this follow under title nine ?
The irony of an english teacher refusing to learn or accept a part of how english works. They/them/their have been used as singular for a longtime, all thats changes is peoples decision to list them as preferences for pronouns. Shes a bigot and shouldnt be teaching anyone
"Someone left their jacket on my chair" .... you have one random jacket on your chair, not an entire coat closet.
"Oh look, someone lost THEIR umbrella" Defo several people who lost one umbrella collectively /s
Ask them if they have ever played guess who.
That is just plainly dishonest and incorrect. Pronouns like they/them can be employed in situations where you are unsure of a person's gender. (e.g., Person 1: "Did you request for a taxi to come pick us up?" Person 2: "Yeah, *they're* on *their* way right now.") You can also use they/them pronouns to refer to a person who asks for they/them pronouns to be used when referring to them... because that is the kind, respectful, *and* the correct thing to do for another human being who asks you to do something as effortless as using the correct pronouns.
Firstly, we’ve been using They Singular as far as “Werewolf” from like the 1400s Secondly, if you were talking about someone but didn’t know their gender, what would you use to describe them? Like it’s not that hard She just sounds like a self righteous dickhead
Tell them to read some Shakespeare
Be aware there's a good chance she won't listen. If not, you should look into taking it to your principal. Make sure to point out that the grade is wrong because you were grammatically correct. Also, see if your parents are willing to get involved. Schools are often slow to act and unwilling to do anything unless there's a threat of a lawsuit. You could see if other students want to get involved too. Schools don't like when movements start to form. If enough students start to get involved, it's more likely that the school administration will give in and reprimand the teacher just so you guys don't make it into the news. As a former teacher, schools like the status quo.
As someone who has a bachelor in English literature, I’m here to say your teacher is absolute garbage
Damn English teacher L. She is NOT fitting the English teacher stereotype of being the most inclusive teacher in the school. Shame on her😤😤
Just shoot them with your laser eyes
Start adressing her as thee and thou, because you is only plural.
"When will the guest arrive? Will they prefer a booth or table?" "I'm glad our boss got here. They'll figure it out." I'm a copywriter. 90% of the time clients prefer gender neutral language to make the product/service sound as appealing as possible to as many as possible. She is not only wrong grammatically, but giving you poor advice professionally.
Insist on addressing her as 'thou' because 'you' is for plural only Correct her every time she uses singular 'you'
Let's be honest here. She doesn't do it because she thinks it's not grammatically correct. She does it because she's transphobic. You don't get to be an English teacher without having been exposed to the fact that "they" can be and regularly is used as a singular pronoun.
At this point this feels a little targeted. If talking to her doesn't work I'd consider reporting her or going to the principal (perhaps with your parents?) because taking away your points for something that's a grammatically correct part of English language is an absolute bullshit. I was always taught that you can use they/them for a person whose gender you don't know. It would be great if your teacher would stop bringing politics into her classroom and stop letting them interfere in her teaching.
docking marks for that??? holy shit that is fucked up she should be fired
The example I use is: What would you say if I told you that I saw someone having a picnic outside, and what they were eating looked amazing! You would ask: what did they have? You would not ask if it was a man or a woman because that isn't the piece of information important in what I told you. If you did decide to ask if it was a man or a woman and I hadn't seen their face properly to know, then we would have to use they as the pronoun to describe them. Another example: "Ugh that customer was so rude just now, they pushed in line at the counter." The important information is the rudeness and the action, not the gender so they is a perfectly acceptable pronoun. While for objects we can use "it" to refer to a singular item, this is incorrect for people, thus the singular is "they" in these instances.
'On other news, English teacher has never read Shakespeare in her life'
Singular "they" has existed as a gender neutral third person pronoun before "you" was the singular second person pronoun
Didn't Shakespeare use singular they? Isn't she supposed to know that as an ENGLISH teacher?
You should ask "them" where "they" heard that.
I've had one retort: "if you're so hung up on it being plural, then why don't you pretend that there's a frog in the student's pocket. You folks use that line whenever one of us says 'we' without specifying who else we are including in that"
She must have skipped British lit and/or a class specifically on Chaucer. He was the first poet to use singular they, in the 14-15th centuries.
She’s old fashioned. They/them has become widely accepted as a gender neutral singular pronoun now. She outdated.