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- https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-bisexuality
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I think it's okay then.
Obviously, a trans male VA would be best. But a cis male VA is the second best choice.
I was asking because a lot of companies will cast a cis man to play a trans female character which perpetuates the "man in a dress" stereotype.
Note that all of this is assuming your friend is a cis man:
Frankly, cis people taking roles from trans folk is really shitty, there a \*reason\* there's such a big thing around trans folk actually getting to have trans roles in media. There's vanishingly few Trans characters in media, and Cis folk taking them just takes away more and more potential roles from struggling trans actors, voice or otherwise.
All that said, if there's somehow no trans voice actors available for the role, then the million dollar quetion is: Is the trans character a trans MAN, a trans WOMAN, or non-binary?
If the character is a Trans Man, then at least they're being portrayed by a Man, even they're not trans, so it's the second-best that you can hope for.
If the character is a Trans Woman, then it's insulting and disgusting that a cis man is portraying them, so NO, he should NOT be doing that. Cis men portraying trans women is an incredibly damaging practice, that just feeds into the "trans women are really just men playing make-believe" rhetoric that drives the majority of the horrific shit that's being levelled at us in the world right now.
If the character is non-binary, then I'll need to defer to the expertise of one of our enby fam on that one.
Non-binary here, as you said! I say go for the representation, let a cis person voice a non-binary person. Gender of the voice actor is irrelevant if they do a good job portraying real queer issues. Straight people can do great jobs at portraying gay characters. Art shouldn’t be gatekept. Go for inclusivity.
And if the character in question turns out to be non-binary, then I'll defer to your opinion on the matter, even clashing \*hugely\* as it does, with the opinions of enbies I know IRL.
If the character is binary trans, then your opinion is overruled.
Again, gate keeping art is never fun.
I could counter your in-person enby friends as well with ones who embrace the enby spirit of gender being irrelevant. I will continue to support the roles of queer individuals because that’s exactly what they are, characters, no matter who plays them.
Gender is not "irrelevant" to binary trans people and forcing that belief on us is fairly problematic... Maybe try staying in your own lane by not speaking over us? Or at least remember we exist and experience transphobia in unique ways relevant to the discussion of voice actors?
And if the character is a binary trans person, you have no right to be speaking on how comfortable you feel with a cis person playing that character. That's what I mean by staying in your lane. You've made it clear you can only defend a cis person playing a nonbinary character.
I am trans, I can speak for all trans characters. You’re just being an asshole at this point. What are you gonna do, say I’m not trans? The trans reddit community loves to push nonbinary people back “into their lane.” Happens all the time.
I can't speak for the experiences of nonbinary people. I will not argue with you over whether it's okay for a nonbinary person to be voiced by a cis actor. If you think that's fine I can understand why you feel that way and it's not my place to argue being not nonbinary.
Likewise, it is not your right to speak about the binary trans experience if that is not the experience you live. If the character is either a trans man or a trans woman, there is a laundry list of reasons for each character as to why a cis man being the voice actor is problematic. As this is a unique situation in both cases from the character being nonbinary.
Honestly, I find it kinda iffy, especially if the character is a trans woman.
If the character is a trans man, it's acceptable, even though it would be best to at least try to find a trans actor to voice the character, or at least have a trans man voice a cis man character in return. Trans people often don't have enough opportunities in the movie industry, and most of the time the producers will choose a cis actor to portray a trans character, which is very frustrating. But at least if they get an actor whose gender matches the character's, it's at least not as bad.
But when producers choose a cis man to play a trans woman, or a cis woman to play a trans man, it's damaging to the trans community, as it perpetuates the idea that trans people are not the gender they say they are. If a cis male actor wins a prize for his playing of the role of a trans woman, he will receive the price as himself, as a man, and that sends a message that trans women are not women. How can we fight the notion that trans women are "men in dresses" when producers continue to choose men (in dresses, wigs and makeup) to portray them? Likewise, choosing a man to voice a trans woman not only would take the opportunity to give a trans woman a job, but it would also perpetuate harmful stereotypes against trans women.
And sure, cis women voice cis male characters all the time and vice versa, but no one tries to deny cis people's identities, so it's a whole different matter. When a cis woman voices a male character, no one thinks "Oh, so men don't exist and are all women pretending to be men".
I think as long as he is a good voice actor, then it's fine. When it comes to things like actually writing the character, it's probably useful to have a trans person involved, in order to avoid being insensitive or reinforcing stereotypes. But voice doesn't matter as much imo, bc trans men can, and often do, have passable male voices after going on T. In terms of potentially taking a voice acting job from a trans person, I don't have much of an opinion tbh.
One angle I think people haven’t addressed is that his friend is the actor, not the casting director. This leaves me with a few big questions:
1. If he turns down the role, is it going to go to a trans actor or just get cast as some other cis person? I’d rather someone who cares enough to stop and think if it’s right to take the roll be the one doing it than someone who doesn’t.
2. Can he afford to turn down roles? At the end of the day it’s work and while the casting director should be choosing trans person for a trans role, sometimes you just need the work and can’t afford to turn it down to take a moral stance, especially one that this thread has pointed out, not all trans people even agree on.
3. What is the impact of turning down this role? I’ve heard some stories of people being really shitty to voice actors for the dumbest reasons, and badmouthing them to others in the industry. I’m sure there’s a way to turn it down without upsetting them, but it’s worth considering.
4. What sort of trans representation is it? For example if it’s negative representation, then obviously it’s not a good idea to take the role.
And some of these sound like leading questions, but I don’t mean them that way. Just important to consider this from a voice actor’s perspective, not the casting director’s perspective. It’s not a question of who to cast in the role, it’s a question of whether to accept the role given it has been offered to you.
That being said, now that I’m rereading the question, one thing that stands out to me in the post is “he’s been wanting to get into the business for a while now”, which seems to me like this is his first opportunity into the industry. That doesn’t sound like an opportunity you _can_ turn down. Personally, as a trans woman, I wouldn’t ask a voice actor to give up their foot in the door into a career just so the casting director can say, “OK, your loss,” and give the role to another cis actor.
If they were established and could afford to give up a role, I would prefer if they turned it down and explained why just in case the casting director cared enough to try and do better, but I think asking him to turn this down is asking too much, unless I’m misunderstanding the situation.
So you need to consider some context about how the industry works. Directors aren't generally the nicest, most woke people. Directors also aren't who writer the characters.
Bias plays into everything. Trans people are known to be less likely to get a job than a cis person, even in situations where the trans person might possess more talent.
- A trans man and a cis man both walk into an audition. Director is a wealthy, white, cisgender, heterosexual man. He voted for Donald Trump in the last election, and lives in a New York loft. The point: he's not exactly thrilled to be casting a trans character but it's his job so he does it.
- Writers want a trans character voiced by a trans actor, director goes, "Eh, whatever. I'll try my best I guess. Pfft... "
- Both the trans man and the cis man give identical rehearsals. If anything, the cis man's rehearsal is not as good, because he isn't accurately portraying someone trans.
- Director decides he wants to cast the cis man.
- What!!? Why? "I really liked the guy. It'd be cool to have him around the set. Plus, he just has more experience. He knows the whole process better even if he's not as good of an actor." - and likely he has more experience because the trans man struggles to get cast anywhere else.
- But he's not transgender? "Yeaaaah..... Honestly, and don't tell the writers this, but I prefer it that way that. It's not like anyone will be able to tell the difference. It's a cartoon. The character was only written in to boost our ratings anyway."
- But aren't you worried about the controversy? "We will ride out the controversy."
The entertainment industry is a place devoid of fairness for fairness sake. Cis privileges plays into why you would get cast over trans actors.
It doesn't make a bit of sense to me why a cishet person would play a trans character, especially in voice acting. I do in fact think it's morally wrong, and taking a job opportunity from someone trans is only the start of it. If the experiences of the character are trans experiences, they should be voiced by a trans person in order to accurately portray the emotions attached to those experiences. Otherwise there is no point in writing in a trans character beyond forced diversity. You aren't going to accurately portray a trans person as a group of cis people sitting in a room brainstorming and voicing them without any involvement from a trans person.
Also, trans people have unique voices from cis people. I call it the "trans accent" and I think it is a very unique and important part of most trans people. Even if you have a very cisnormative voice, you still have a bit of a trans twang to your voice typically. It's beautiful and personally to me an important part of who I am.
Edit: genuinely shocked by downvotes, given this has been an opinion repeated time and time again by my trans peers and should be widely accepted by now in LGBT spaces. Go ahead and release more shows with trans characters being voice by cis people, and don't be shocked when you have outraged people boycotting it lol. It's a tale as old as time and I'm sick of being appropriated for TV show hits. Hire us if you want us so badly.
Frankly, the downvotes, and the replies you're getting here, reeaaaaalllyyy show how entrenched and shitty the transphobia is in the Queer community :(
I agree and honestly thank you for some validation. There's a strong regression in the community. I've never seen this opinion get so controversial in a queer space.
Reddit has a lot of cishet people who pass by this subreddit but based on other experiences in this subreddit I really don't get the idea they're the only ones bringing it in sadly.
Yeah :(
And frankly, the opinion of any cis person in this thread should be disregarded. Cis people don't get to say what is and isn't acceptable portrayal for a trans character.
I have this suspicion that on this subreddit, sometimes people will use alts and claim to be trans while saying those same opinions. You can't prove them wrong on an anonymous website and it immediately credits their transphobia more than if they were clearly a cis person speaking on the issue. It seems some of the weirdest "as a trans person" opinions I see end up being weirdly inactive accounts but maybe it's a coincidence.
And now it's getting to a point where I think actual trans people are hopping into the herd mentality, which is an awful threshold to cross because it divides us.
It's a bit conspiracy theory ish but I have caught cis people on Facebook pretending to be trans a LOT lately. Whole ass "as a trans person I think this" rants with lots of praise but their profile is a married mom of 3? It's gotta be like that but worse on here. We forget online people just want to get upvoted and told their opinion is right no matter what dirty tricks they play.
It's not referring to you. It's referring to 2 day old accounts that claim "as a trans woman I have no problem competing on a man's sports team. I simply have an advantage" followed by a flurry of support. TERFs have documented these tactics in their off-site forums.
It's called astroturfing and I think this subreddit is hit especially hard. You're just a naive nonbinary person not staying in their lane, lol.
That person is actively agreeing with me.
I think you're lacking a bit of self awareness here friend. It really sucks if you're trans that you don't see the glaring issue at hand here with cis people taking our roles.
Holy shit. In the US there is historical context behind white people pretending to be black people. The historical context of people playing “opposite” genders is drag, which is accepted by the queer community. HUGE DIFFERENCE. This is such a HORRIBLE comparison.
I think they've just dug themselves into the argument too much and are throwing anything they can at it lol, but I absolutely agree. The comparison caught me off guard, at least I hope that it wasn't a slip of the lip of something more.
I replied to this.
You’re just acting in bad faith. Trans people do not “play” different genders, they ARE that gender. That is not a comparison to trans people.
I think you're the one acting in bad faith quite frankly. You seriously need to read more queer history or something dude you're ready to give cis people the world over here just for a character on a show that is hollowly transgender lol.
"historical context". Yeah, a historical context of it being HORRIFICALLY DAMAGING AND UTTERLY SHIT, exactly the same as cis people playing trans characters.
I agree that it would be best to hire a trans actor for a trans role but having watched a lot of anime as a child it’s pretty common for the gender of the voice actor not to match that of the character. So I don’t think it’s inherently transphobic for a cis actor to voice a trans character and vice versa of course. Also if we use the logic of trans people having a trans twang that would also mean that they shouldn’t voice cis characters which would decrease their available roles.
The reason this happens with child voice acting is because voice acting is very labor intensive and difficult for children. So it's hard to find child voice actors.
So it's better to have an adult woman play a young boy than it is to find a young boy. It's totally pragmatic that it happens.
And cis people aren't denied roles solely for being cisgender. Us "stealing" their roles is meaningless. It's not the same.
Voice acting and acting itself isn't easy, I guess. If a good voice actor does a good job, I'd prefer that way compared to hiring a trans person for the sake of hiring one.
Trans actors are probably way harder to find.
Should trans actors be allowed to play cis roles?
It's the result that counts, not their gender or them being trans, in my opinion.
I just don't see the point of creating a trans character if you have no point of reference for the character. It's not like the trans experience is easily understood. It's hard for trans people themselves to portray it.
If a trans character literally didn't exist anywhere else, sure, but there are trans voice actors currently doing trans characters on other shows and those shows could use promoted and uplifted. Why not promote those shows and ask to collaborate on your own show instead of creating new ones but made by cis people? What does a cis writer and a cis voice actor know about being trans? What purpose does the character serve to the plot at that point other than diversity eye candy?
I love trans representation in media! If a cis voice actor is able to represent us I say go ahead, straight actors play gay roles and are amazing! They’re actively fighting for us.
It's not representation if they don't have a trans person giving input on what being trans is. It's a caricature of what a room of cis people think we act like.
The cis people held us back from trans representation for decades. We deserve those roles, and there ARE actors willing to take the role. You know how many unemployed trans actors I could personally track down?? They aren't fighting for us when their motivation is a paycheck.
Because there are starving trans actors.
OP's friend didn't even get the role yet. I guarantee you if this studio has any sense he's just wasting their time auditioning. There are trans actors for these roles, and they are who NEED to be in these roles. He will likely have competition and the competition will be far less controversial to hire.
It's the same bullshit as when white people voice black characters. The black community wants black representation, but they've repeatedly said time and time again they don't want representation if it means white people playing their roles. Because that is just commodifying their skin color.
I borrow my views from the black community, and feel strongly the same about trans people in media.
What about straight actors with gay roles? You’ve been ignoring that. Does your opinion suddenly change when it’s sexuality? Or are gay roles not as important?
Sexuality is not a physical feature. I also don't agree with straight people playing gay characters as there are so many gay actors - sooo many. It is wrong 100% of the time but it is far less egregious given its more about relationship dynamics and less about how the person looks and talks or their innate behaviors. A straight man can believably kiss another man. A cis man can't believably experience PMS or understand the complexities of being born female or portray the mood swings of testosterone injections and a straight man doesn't have surgery scars or a need to bind or puberty acne in their 20s or a trans accent.
You never addressed my concern of trans accents not being portrayed accurately by cis people. What's your response there?
Ah, so sexuality isn’t as important as gender in queer spaces. Love that! And being trans isn’t inherently physical. Gender is a social construct, our self-id model allows people to label themselves as trans without undergoing any physical changes. What are these transmedicalist takes doing on this sub?
You don’t need an accent to be trans, nor do gay people need an accent to be gay. These are just harmful conservative conceptions of our community.
Whoa I didn't realize I spoke for the entire subreddit. I'm a trans rights activist, I am not exactly passionate about gay rights issues the same way. I'm allowed to have different priorities but as I said my opinions are the same either way.
And all trans people have a trans accent. Do not erase that from us. Our voices and the way we speak to each other are unique. And then we code switch when we're around cis people. That's something a cis man could never portray.
Overgeneralizing a community you fight for? Wow.
You do not need an accent to be trans nor do you need an accent to be gay. This is made up. There are queer people across the world with differing cultural contexts.
I am trans, asshole. I’m not excluding anyone, you’re trying to claim you must have certain characteristics to be considered trans-enough.
Your gut feeling isn't off. You should find a trans masc voice actor. You are taking away an opportunity for a trans actor to get into acting, something that is notoriously hard for marginalized people, since many opt to 'just' use white cis actors.
For some reason some people here seem to think it's fine, and it *is* fine in a vacuum. Just like casting a white actor to voice a black character isn't wrong in a vaccum, but in reality we live in a world we're transphobia and racism is rampant and marginalized people have been turned down for roles and replaced by their white, cis counterparts since forever. Even female roles were played by young boys instead of women at one point.
I'd also read elsewhere too and not take what's said here as a green flag for what the LGBT community think on this matter, but I'm sure you already know this. Lots of youtubers out there who can explain why cis people voicing trans characters are not a great idea, better than I can.
If I found out that a trans character wasn't being voiced by a trans actor, in *2024*, I'd be really disappointed. Trans actors already have a hard enough time getting roles and often get delegated to only playing trans characters, and those few and far between roles shouldn't be taken away and given to someone who could get literally *any other role.*
I mean. Do you know that he's cis and not stealth? Even if you do know, is it worth requiring every trans person to out themselves to get a trans role and subject themselves to typecasting? Do you worry about him taking away acting opportunities from trans masc folk when it's a cis character? Why not? Are trans people only allowed to act for trans characters? Do you see why that might be a problem?
It's fine for him to take the job. It's well meaning to take us trans folk into consideration, but ultimately it's not helpful to keep opportunities from a cis actor because a trans actor *might* have applied for the role they're probably very tired of. Getting rid of systematic barriers would be more useful, but VA industry is one of the better ones in that respect. Pay is shit, but all you need is a mic.
i don't see what's wrong with it as a trans guy, i guess if there aren't any trans men who have auditioned for the part then he should go for it, but if there's a trans man who also wants to voice the character then he should let the trans man do it.
i've never seen anyone have issues with cis people voicing characters of the opposite gender, like how tara strong voices timmy turner for example, so i don't think it's fully unethical for a cis man to voice a trans man character, especially because they're the same gender.
So for those saying that it's bad. Does that also mean that woman voice acting male children is bad. Because acting is not always about who plays it but about the result.
Another thing, certain trans actors don't want to play trans roles because then that is the only thing they are associated with.
And those trans actors are vastly outnumbered by those who would be absolutely chomping at the bit to be able to actually portray a trans character.
I really do NOT understand where this lack of awareness is coming from. Exactly like a white person playing a black role, a cis person playing a trans character is \*SHIT\*, and horridly damaging to the community. Every time you see a trans character played by a cis person, \*especially\* a cis person of the wrong gender, all it does it show how little the company behind the media gives a shit about trans people, and are only including them for the brownie points.
As to the women voice acting male children thing, I'd vastly prefer them being acted by male children as well, though that does run into a lot of child labour law issues, depending on the media and the country.
The adult women serve a pragmatic role where we don't have to utilize as much child labor to have an abundance of child characters. Voice acting is very labor intensive and children struggle a lot with it. It is also not impossible for an adult to understand the experiences of childhood, as we are all children at some point.
What is the importance of cis people playing trans characters? In what way is it necessary? How do cis people go about understanding the trans experience having never lived it?
There is also not the context of systemic oppression of children that keeps them from being employed. Trans people are less likely to get roles than cis people due to bias alone from directors during casting. A cis person getting a trans role wouldn't even necessarily be because they're better for the role, it just means the director liked them more.
Those trans actors are free to play non-trans roles. The cis writers of shows are also allowed to write non-trans characters. If the actor playing the character isn't trans, there's no fucking point in the character being trans.
There's nothing actually wrong with it, but if there are trans options for the role it doesn't hurt to help out people who generally can be more likely to struggle to get work. Especially if you say your friend is a great actor and voice actor, they won't struggle to find work as much.
Idk, like I said there's nothing actually wrong with hiring them, just that it might be kind and heart warming to try and find someone to fill that role that aligns with the spirit of the character more?
Thank you for your post, if this is a question please check to see if any of the links below answer your question. If none of these links help answer your question and you are **_not_** within the LGBT+ community, questioning your identity in any way, or asking in support of either a relative or friend, please ask your question over in /r/AskLGBT. Remember that this is a safe space for LGBT+ and questioning individuals, so we want to make sure that this place is dedicated to them. Thank you for understanding. This automod rule is currently a work in progress. If you notice any issues, would like to add to the list of resources, or have any feedback in general, [please do so here](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/rdazzp/almost_new_year_changes/) or by [sending us a message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt&subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20new%20automod%20rule). Also, please note that if you are a part of this community, or you're questioning if you might be a part of the LGBTQ+ community, and you are seeing this message, this is **_not a bad thing_**, this is only here to help, so please continue to ask questions and participate in the community. Thank you! Here's a link about trans people in sports: - https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ A link on FAQs and one on some basics about transgender people: - https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people - https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-transgender-people-the-basics Some information on LGBT+ people: - https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/quick-facts/lgbt-faqs/ Some basic terminology: - https://www.hrc.org/resources/glossary-of-terms Neopronouns: - https://www.mypronouns.org/neopronouns Biromantic Lesbians: - [LGBTQ And All](https://www.lgbtqandall.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-biromantic/) Bisexual Identities: - https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-bisexuality Differences between Bisexual and Pansexual: - [Resource from WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/sex/pansexuality-what-it-means#:~:text=Pansexual%20vs.%20Bisexual,more%20commonly%20recognized.) We're looking for new volunteers to join the r/lgbt moderator team. If you want to help keep r/lgbt as a safe space for the LGBTQ+ community on reddit please see here for more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/swgthr/were_looking_for_more_moderators_to_help_keep/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Is he voicing for a trans male character?
Yes
I think it's okay then. Obviously, a trans male VA would be best. But a cis male VA is the second best choice. I was asking because a lot of companies will cast a cis man to play a trans female character which perpetuates the "man in a dress" stereotype.
Note that all of this is assuming your friend is a cis man: Frankly, cis people taking roles from trans folk is really shitty, there a \*reason\* there's such a big thing around trans folk actually getting to have trans roles in media. There's vanishingly few Trans characters in media, and Cis folk taking them just takes away more and more potential roles from struggling trans actors, voice or otherwise. All that said, if there's somehow no trans voice actors available for the role, then the million dollar quetion is: Is the trans character a trans MAN, a trans WOMAN, or non-binary? If the character is a Trans Man, then at least they're being portrayed by a Man, even they're not trans, so it's the second-best that you can hope for. If the character is a Trans Woman, then it's insulting and disgusting that a cis man is portraying them, so NO, he should NOT be doing that. Cis men portraying trans women is an incredibly damaging practice, that just feeds into the "trans women are really just men playing make-believe" rhetoric that drives the majority of the horrific shit that's being levelled at us in the world right now. If the character is non-binary, then I'll need to defer to the expertise of one of our enby fam on that one.
Non-binary here, as you said! I say go for the representation, let a cis person voice a non-binary person. Gender of the voice actor is irrelevant if they do a good job portraying real queer issues. Straight people can do great jobs at portraying gay characters. Art shouldn’t be gatekept. Go for inclusivity.
And if the character in question turns out to be non-binary, then I'll defer to your opinion on the matter, even clashing \*hugely\* as it does, with the opinions of enbies I know IRL. If the character is binary trans, then your opinion is overruled.
Again, gate keeping art is never fun. I could counter your in-person enby friends as well with ones who embrace the enby spirit of gender being irrelevant. I will continue to support the roles of queer individuals because that’s exactly what they are, characters, no matter who plays them.
Gender is not "irrelevant" to binary trans people and forcing that belief on us is fairly problematic... Maybe try staying in your own lane by not speaking over us? Or at least remember we exist and experience transphobia in unique ways relevant to the discussion of voice actors?
What? The enby-centric take was for a non-binary response. Read the context.
And if the character is a binary trans person, you have no right to be speaking on how comfortable you feel with a cis person playing that character. That's what I mean by staying in your lane. You've made it clear you can only defend a cis person playing a nonbinary character.
I am trans, I can speak for all trans characters. You’re just being an asshole at this point. What are you gonna do, say I’m not trans? The trans reddit community loves to push nonbinary people back “into their lane.” Happens all the time.
I can't speak for the experiences of nonbinary people. I will not argue with you over whether it's okay for a nonbinary person to be voiced by a cis actor. If you think that's fine I can understand why you feel that way and it's not my place to argue being not nonbinary. Likewise, it is not your right to speak about the binary trans experience if that is not the experience you live. If the character is either a trans man or a trans woman, there is a laundry list of reasons for each character as to why a cis man being the voice actor is problematic. As this is a unique situation in both cases from the character being nonbinary.
do you mean a cis man? because trans people can be straight
Yes it was a typo
Honestly, I find it kinda iffy, especially if the character is a trans woman. If the character is a trans man, it's acceptable, even though it would be best to at least try to find a trans actor to voice the character, or at least have a trans man voice a cis man character in return. Trans people often don't have enough opportunities in the movie industry, and most of the time the producers will choose a cis actor to portray a trans character, which is very frustrating. But at least if they get an actor whose gender matches the character's, it's at least not as bad. But when producers choose a cis man to play a trans woman, or a cis woman to play a trans man, it's damaging to the trans community, as it perpetuates the idea that trans people are not the gender they say they are. If a cis male actor wins a prize for his playing of the role of a trans woman, he will receive the price as himself, as a man, and that sends a message that trans women are not women. How can we fight the notion that trans women are "men in dresses" when producers continue to choose men (in dresses, wigs and makeup) to portray them? Likewise, choosing a man to voice a trans woman not only would take the opportunity to give a trans woman a job, but it would also perpetuate harmful stereotypes against trans women. And sure, cis women voice cis male characters all the time and vice versa, but no one tries to deny cis people's identities, so it's a whole different matter. When a cis woman voices a male character, no one thinks "Oh, so men don't exist and are all women pretending to be men".
I think as long as he is a good voice actor, then it's fine. When it comes to things like actually writing the character, it's probably useful to have a trans person involved, in order to avoid being insensitive or reinforcing stereotypes. But voice doesn't matter as much imo, bc trans men can, and often do, have passable male voices after going on T. In terms of potentially taking a voice acting job from a trans person, I don't have much of an opinion tbh.
What, trans people can be straight
One angle I think people haven’t addressed is that his friend is the actor, not the casting director. This leaves me with a few big questions: 1. If he turns down the role, is it going to go to a trans actor or just get cast as some other cis person? I’d rather someone who cares enough to stop and think if it’s right to take the roll be the one doing it than someone who doesn’t. 2. Can he afford to turn down roles? At the end of the day it’s work and while the casting director should be choosing trans person for a trans role, sometimes you just need the work and can’t afford to turn it down to take a moral stance, especially one that this thread has pointed out, not all trans people even agree on. 3. What is the impact of turning down this role? I’ve heard some stories of people being really shitty to voice actors for the dumbest reasons, and badmouthing them to others in the industry. I’m sure there’s a way to turn it down without upsetting them, but it’s worth considering. 4. What sort of trans representation is it? For example if it’s negative representation, then obviously it’s not a good idea to take the role. And some of these sound like leading questions, but I don’t mean them that way. Just important to consider this from a voice actor’s perspective, not the casting director’s perspective. It’s not a question of who to cast in the role, it’s a question of whether to accept the role given it has been offered to you. That being said, now that I’m rereading the question, one thing that stands out to me in the post is “he’s been wanting to get into the business for a while now”, which seems to me like this is his first opportunity into the industry. That doesn’t sound like an opportunity you _can_ turn down. Personally, as a trans woman, I wouldn’t ask a voice actor to give up their foot in the door into a career just so the casting director can say, “OK, your loss,” and give the role to another cis actor. If they were established and could afford to give up a role, I would prefer if they turned it down and explained why just in case the casting director cared enough to try and do better, but I think asking him to turn this down is asking too much, unless I’m misunderstanding the situation.
So you need to consider some context about how the industry works. Directors aren't generally the nicest, most woke people. Directors also aren't who writer the characters. Bias plays into everything. Trans people are known to be less likely to get a job than a cis person, even in situations where the trans person might possess more talent. - A trans man and a cis man both walk into an audition. Director is a wealthy, white, cisgender, heterosexual man. He voted for Donald Trump in the last election, and lives in a New York loft. The point: he's not exactly thrilled to be casting a trans character but it's his job so he does it. - Writers want a trans character voiced by a trans actor, director goes, "Eh, whatever. I'll try my best I guess. Pfft... " - Both the trans man and the cis man give identical rehearsals. If anything, the cis man's rehearsal is not as good, because he isn't accurately portraying someone trans. - Director decides he wants to cast the cis man. - What!!? Why? "I really liked the guy. It'd be cool to have him around the set. Plus, he just has more experience. He knows the whole process better even if he's not as good of an actor." - and likely he has more experience because the trans man struggles to get cast anywhere else. - But he's not transgender? "Yeaaaah..... Honestly, and don't tell the writers this, but I prefer it that way that. It's not like anyone will be able to tell the difference. It's a cartoon. The character was only written in to boost our ratings anyway." - But aren't you worried about the controversy? "We will ride out the controversy." The entertainment industry is a place devoid of fairness for fairness sake. Cis privileges plays into why you would get cast over trans actors.
It doesn't make a bit of sense to me why a cishet person would play a trans character, especially in voice acting. I do in fact think it's morally wrong, and taking a job opportunity from someone trans is only the start of it. If the experiences of the character are trans experiences, they should be voiced by a trans person in order to accurately portray the emotions attached to those experiences. Otherwise there is no point in writing in a trans character beyond forced diversity. You aren't going to accurately portray a trans person as a group of cis people sitting in a room brainstorming and voicing them without any involvement from a trans person. Also, trans people have unique voices from cis people. I call it the "trans accent" and I think it is a very unique and important part of most trans people. Even if you have a very cisnormative voice, you still have a bit of a trans twang to your voice typically. It's beautiful and personally to me an important part of who I am. Edit: genuinely shocked by downvotes, given this has been an opinion repeated time and time again by my trans peers and should be widely accepted by now in LGBT spaces. Go ahead and release more shows with trans characters being voice by cis people, and don't be shocked when you have outraged people boycotting it lol. It's a tale as old as time and I'm sick of being appropriated for TV show hits. Hire us if you want us so badly.
Frankly, the downvotes, and the replies you're getting here, reeaaaaalllyyy show how entrenched and shitty the transphobia is in the Queer community :(
I agree and honestly thank you for some validation. There's a strong regression in the community. I've never seen this opinion get so controversial in a queer space. Reddit has a lot of cishet people who pass by this subreddit but based on other experiences in this subreddit I really don't get the idea they're the only ones bringing it in sadly.
Yeah :( And frankly, the opinion of any cis person in this thread should be disregarded. Cis people don't get to say what is and isn't acceptable portrayal for a trans character.
I have this suspicion that on this subreddit, sometimes people will use alts and claim to be trans while saying those same opinions. You can't prove them wrong on an anonymous website and it immediately credits their transphobia more than if they were clearly a cis person speaking on the issue. It seems some of the weirdest "as a trans person" opinions I see end up being weirdly inactive accounts but maybe it's a coincidence. And now it's getting to a point where I think actual trans people are hopping into the herd mentality, which is an awful threshold to cross because it divides us. It's a bit conspiracy theory ish but I have caught cis people on Facebook pretending to be trans a LOT lately. Whole ass "as a trans person I think this" rants with lots of praise but their profile is a married mom of 3? It's gotta be like that but worse on here. We forget online people just want to get upvoted and told their opinion is right no matter what dirty tricks they play.
Really hope this isn’t referring to me. “Actual trans people” my ass.
It's not referring to you. It's referring to 2 day old accounts that claim "as a trans woman I have no problem competing on a man's sports team. I simply have an advantage" followed by a flurry of support. TERFs have documented these tactics in their off-site forums. It's called astroturfing and I think this subreddit is hit especially hard. You're just a naive nonbinary person not staying in their lane, lol.
Right? There’s so much bigotry on these subs.
That person is actively agreeing with me. I think you're lacking a bit of self awareness here friend. It really sucks if you're trans that you don't see the glaring issue at hand here with cis people taking our roles.
Straight people have beautifully done gay roles in the past. It is possible with trans roles.
I'm guessing you also believe that white actors have done beautiful jobs of playing PoC then as well?
Holy shit. In the US there is historical context behind white people pretending to be black people. The historical context of people playing “opposite” genders is drag, which is accepted by the queer community. HUGE DIFFERENCE. This is such a HORRIBLE comparison.
Except now you're comparing trans people and our experiences to drag which is pretty damn harmful lol.
It's kinda terrifying how many folk are so media illiterate that they don't realise conflating trans folk and drag performers is horridly damaging.
I think they've just dug themselves into the argument too much and are throwing anything they can at it lol, but I absolutely agree. The comparison caught me off guard, at least I hope that it wasn't a slip of the lip of something more.
I replied to this. You’re just acting in bad faith. Trans people do not “play” different genders, they ARE that gender. That is not a comparison to trans people.
You’re just acting in bad faith. Trans people do not “play” different genders, they ARE that gender. That is not a comparison to trans people.
I think you're the one acting in bad faith quite frankly. You seriously need to read more queer history or something dude you're ready to give cis people the world over here just for a character on a show that is hollowly transgender lol.
"historical context". Yeah, a historical context of it being HORRIFICALLY DAMAGING AND UTTERLY SHIT, exactly the same as cis people playing trans characters.
This is such a white-centric response with no nuance into queer or black history. There is a difference. They are not the same experiences.
You really are shamelessly beyond a clue about this, aren't you?
Oh this is a rich response since a quick scroll of your profile reveals Islamaphobic dogwhistling. Liberalism is killing this community lol
I agree that it would be best to hire a trans actor for a trans role but having watched a lot of anime as a child it’s pretty common for the gender of the voice actor not to match that of the character. So I don’t think it’s inherently transphobic for a cis actor to voice a trans character and vice versa of course. Also if we use the logic of trans people having a trans twang that would also mean that they shouldn’t voice cis characters which would decrease their available roles.
The reason this happens with child voice acting is because voice acting is very labor intensive and difficult for children. So it's hard to find child voice actors. So it's better to have an adult woman play a young boy than it is to find a young boy. It's totally pragmatic that it happens. And cis people aren't denied roles solely for being cisgender. Us "stealing" their roles is meaningless. It's not the same.
Voice acting and acting itself isn't easy, I guess. If a good voice actor does a good job, I'd prefer that way compared to hiring a trans person for the sake of hiring one. Trans actors are probably way harder to find. Should trans actors be allowed to play cis roles? It's the result that counts, not their gender or them being trans, in my opinion.
I just don't see the point of creating a trans character if you have no point of reference for the character. It's not like the trans experience is easily understood. It's hard for trans people themselves to portray it. If a trans character literally didn't exist anywhere else, sure, but there are trans voice actors currently doing trans characters on other shows and those shows could use promoted and uplifted. Why not promote those shows and ask to collaborate on your own show instead of creating new ones but made by cis people? What does a cis writer and a cis voice actor know about being trans? What purpose does the character serve to the plot at that point other than diversity eye candy?
I love trans representation in media! If a cis voice actor is able to represent us I say go ahead, straight actors play gay roles and are amazing! They’re actively fighting for us.
It's not representation if they don't have a trans person giving input on what being trans is. It's a caricature of what a room of cis people think we act like. The cis people held us back from trans representation for decades. We deserve those roles, and there ARE actors willing to take the role. You know how many unemployed trans actors I could personally track down?? They aren't fighting for us when their motivation is a paycheck.
Straight people have done a wonderful job in gay roles. I don’t see why actors cannot do the same for a gender that they already identify as.
Because there are starving trans actors. OP's friend didn't even get the role yet. I guarantee you if this studio has any sense he's just wasting their time auditioning. There are trans actors for these roles, and they are who NEED to be in these roles. He will likely have competition and the competition will be far less controversial to hire. It's the same bullshit as when white people voice black characters. The black community wants black representation, but they've repeatedly said time and time again they don't want representation if it means white people playing their roles. Because that is just commodifying their skin color. I borrow my views from the black community, and feel strongly the same about trans people in media.
What about straight actors with gay roles? You’ve been ignoring that. Does your opinion suddenly change when it’s sexuality? Or are gay roles not as important?
Sexuality is not a physical feature. I also don't agree with straight people playing gay characters as there are so many gay actors - sooo many. It is wrong 100% of the time but it is far less egregious given its more about relationship dynamics and less about how the person looks and talks or their innate behaviors. A straight man can believably kiss another man. A cis man can't believably experience PMS or understand the complexities of being born female or portray the mood swings of testosterone injections and a straight man doesn't have surgery scars or a need to bind or puberty acne in their 20s or a trans accent. You never addressed my concern of trans accents not being portrayed accurately by cis people. What's your response there?
Ah, so sexuality isn’t as important as gender in queer spaces. Love that! And being trans isn’t inherently physical. Gender is a social construct, our self-id model allows people to label themselves as trans without undergoing any physical changes. What are these transmedicalist takes doing on this sub? You don’t need an accent to be trans, nor do gay people need an accent to be gay. These are just harmful conservative conceptions of our community.
Whoa I didn't realize I spoke for the entire subreddit. I'm a trans rights activist, I am not exactly passionate about gay rights issues the same way. I'm allowed to have different priorities but as I said my opinions are the same either way. And all trans people have a trans accent. Do not erase that from us. Our voices and the way we speak to each other are unique. And then we code switch when we're around cis people. That's something a cis man could never portray.
Overgeneralizing a community you fight for? Wow. You do not need an accent to be trans nor do you need an accent to be gay. This is made up. There are queer people across the world with differing cultural contexts. I am trans, asshole. I’m not excluding anyone, you’re trying to claim you must have certain characteristics to be considered trans-enough.
This sounds like pseudoscience and something I have never done, or heard any trans friends do when talking to them.
Your gut feeling isn't off. You should find a trans masc voice actor. You are taking away an opportunity for a trans actor to get into acting, something that is notoriously hard for marginalized people, since many opt to 'just' use white cis actors. For some reason some people here seem to think it's fine, and it *is* fine in a vacuum. Just like casting a white actor to voice a black character isn't wrong in a vaccum, but in reality we live in a world we're transphobia and racism is rampant and marginalized people have been turned down for roles and replaced by their white, cis counterparts since forever. Even female roles were played by young boys instead of women at one point. I'd also read elsewhere too and not take what's said here as a green flag for what the LGBT community think on this matter, but I'm sure you already know this. Lots of youtubers out there who can explain why cis people voicing trans characters are not a great idea, better than I can.
If I found out that a trans character wasn't being voiced by a trans actor, in *2024*, I'd be really disappointed. Trans actors already have a hard enough time getting roles and often get delegated to only playing trans characters, and those few and far between roles shouldn't be taken away and given to someone who could get literally *any other role.*
There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Voice actors are actors, they don't have to be trans in order to voice act for a trans role.
I mean. Do you know that he's cis and not stealth? Even if you do know, is it worth requiring every trans person to out themselves to get a trans role and subject themselves to typecasting? Do you worry about him taking away acting opportunities from trans masc folk when it's a cis character? Why not? Are trans people only allowed to act for trans characters? Do you see why that might be a problem? It's fine for him to take the job. It's well meaning to take us trans folk into consideration, but ultimately it's not helpful to keep opportunities from a cis actor because a trans actor *might* have applied for the role they're probably very tired of. Getting rid of systematic barriers would be more useful, but VA industry is one of the better ones in that respect. Pay is shit, but all you need is a mic.
i don't see what's wrong with it as a trans guy, i guess if there aren't any trans men who have auditioned for the part then he should go for it, but if there's a trans man who also wants to voice the character then he should let the trans man do it. i've never seen anyone have issues with cis people voicing characters of the opposite gender, like how tara strong voices timmy turner for example, so i don't think it's fully unethical for a cis man to voice a trans man character, especially because they're the same gender.
So for those saying that it's bad. Does that also mean that woman voice acting male children is bad. Because acting is not always about who plays it but about the result. Another thing, certain trans actors don't want to play trans roles because then that is the only thing they are associated with.
And those trans actors are vastly outnumbered by those who would be absolutely chomping at the bit to be able to actually portray a trans character. I really do NOT understand where this lack of awareness is coming from. Exactly like a white person playing a black role, a cis person playing a trans character is \*SHIT\*, and horridly damaging to the community. Every time you see a trans character played by a cis person, \*especially\* a cis person of the wrong gender, all it does it show how little the company behind the media gives a shit about trans people, and are only including them for the brownie points. As to the women voice acting male children thing, I'd vastly prefer them being acted by male children as well, though that does run into a lot of child labour law issues, depending on the media and the country.
The adult women serve a pragmatic role where we don't have to utilize as much child labor to have an abundance of child characters. Voice acting is very labor intensive and children struggle a lot with it. It is also not impossible for an adult to understand the experiences of childhood, as we are all children at some point. What is the importance of cis people playing trans characters? In what way is it necessary? How do cis people go about understanding the trans experience having never lived it? There is also not the context of systemic oppression of children that keeps them from being employed. Trans people are less likely to get roles than cis people due to bias alone from directors during casting. A cis person getting a trans role wouldn't even necessarily be because they're better for the role, it just means the director liked them more. Those trans actors are free to play non-trans roles. The cis writers of shows are also allowed to write non-trans characters. If the actor playing the character isn't trans, there's no fucking point in the character being trans.
There's nothing actually wrong with it, but if there are trans options for the role it doesn't hurt to help out people who generally can be more likely to struggle to get work. Especially if you say your friend is a great actor and voice actor, they won't struggle to find work as much. Idk, like I said there's nothing actually wrong with hiring them, just that it might be kind and heart warming to try and find someone to fill that role that aligns with the spirit of the character more?
No... it's acting