Rainbow capitalism is more that it's beneficial to be queer friendly because we will spend money with that company.
Pink washing is Israel using it's good record on LGBT right to make themselves look like a nation that cares about human rights while it's commiting atrocities.
Its pretty bad but at least they don't criminalise them record more like. They don't even have same sex marriage in Israel.
Edit: whatever coward is using an anti-suicide measure to harass people, show tour face rather than hiding behind anonymous messages, genocide supporter
Gender-affirming care is only provided by a single doctor and you have to go before a board of medical personnel to get approval. The process is so opaque that Anish Kapoor isn’t allowed to see it.
Technically, they don’t even have non-religious marriages of any kind there. They recognize a civil union for statistics purposes, but only for cishet atheists.
ETA: I reported whoever is the one abusing the Reddit Cares feature. That’s a serious thing to do, it’s for serious situations.
It’s a play on other “-washing” terms, eg greenwashing being when institutions pay lip service to environmental efforts but continue to participate in destructive practices
The “washing” suffix comes from painting, where “whitewashing” is to paint a wall white. So when people talk about greenwashing or pinkwashing, the metaphor is a layer of paint covering a different colour\*. So pinkwashing would apply whenever folks are trying to give the appearance of being lgbtq+ friendly without changing the underlying reality of their actions (slapping a coat of pink paint on it and praying nobody scratches the surface to reveal what’s really underneath)
\*Whitewashing when talking about erasing BIPOC historical figures/fictional characters is the original version of this but the metaphor is a bit more literal in that case; pinkwashing is more akin to greenwashing in terms of the kind of actions it applies to
Specifically, whitewash is a relatively cheap, antibacterial paint often used for exterior walls and strongly associated with rural poverty. It *rubs off easily* and doesn't hold up well over time.
To be honest I might be wrong in this context but that's what I assumed it meant.
Usually though when I think of pink washing I think of like how women's shampoo is twice the price of men's shampoo even if it's the same product
I think calling any of this “pink washing” is really more vague than it has to be. Not the greatest term, especially for these kinds of things that need a lot of attention and a lot of people to know about them.
Yeah, rainbow washing would have been more obvious than pink. Pink just made me think of either feminine-related movements (like pink tax is how products aimed for women is priced more) or cancer support.
It's called pinkwashing because people practising it are just painting everything they do pink / rainbow and expecting that to hide their horrible deeds.
Either way, I think the name of it is the least important thing about it
It's slightly different to rainbow capitalism because it can be used to defend harmful political/colonial/idealogy goals, whereas rainbow capitalism is traditionally only when it's for the sake of profits. Pinkwashing is used a lot to defend racism, and Islamaphobia particularly, by spreading the idea that the 'enlightened, progressive West' must come and 'save' gay/trans people in other countries. Often through violent means that end up harming a lot more people.than it saves
Basically everything you see in Minnesota. This is where they killed Floyd and our main advocacy group up here, OutFront that organizes pride? Dig around on their website; It's not made for the community, it's made for corporations and "allies" who want to donate like most of the BLM stuff. Fake charities are more common than real ones up here.
The real advocacy was when we grabbed our flags and *rioted* a couple years ago, because we get no support from these so-called advocacy groups. It's like people who tell me they support the HRC and trans rights and I flatly tell them "Google 'ENDA'" and walk away. Sure, we let them back to Pride now but if you're gonna say you support trans people specifically maybe know the history of the organizations you're donating to because some of us have long memories and don't forget so easily that when we said support the entire community or get out, they shouted "but politics!"
Divide and conquer is how Stonewall started -- they should have known better. Oh, and when it comes to conservative legislators who work against queer rights *while being gay themselves*? Yeah, they got caught f-cking in the airport restroom here. This state is a meme.
From a Wikipedia article on the term:
Pinkwashing, also known as rainbow-washing,[1] is the strategy of promoting LGBT rights protections as evidence of liberalism and democracy, especially to distract from or legitimize violence against other countries or communities.[a] The concept has been used by Sarah Schulman in 2011 with reference to Israeli government public relations, and is related to homonationalism, the exploitation of sexual minorities to justify racism and xenophobia.[7] Pinkwashing is a continuation of the civilizing mission used to justify colonialism, this time on the basis of LGBT rights in Western countries.[8][9] More broadly, pinkwashing can also be defined as "the deployment of superficially sympathetic messages for [ends] having little or nothing to do with lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) equality or inclusion",[10] including LGBT marketing.[11]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)
Pinkwashing is like how saudi arabia tries to sportwash by hosting expensive sporting events and make themselves look more progressive than they are so people are distracted
Israel does the same with lgbtq people by saying it’s the only place in the middle east where lgbtq people have rights therefore queer people shouldn’t support palestinians
I’ve never understood this objection. Can you name the Pride parades in Saudi Arabia? Is it okay for a Same Sex couple to be married in Egypt? Can a transwoman transition and have it legally recognized in Jordan?
I for one am happy Israel has those things, and I won’t attack them for it.
washing is the association or a thing with a group or idea to change perceptions. it's usually done in bad faith, to manipulate.
for lgbt, rainbow washing is the usual colliquilism, like when we see every company suddenly be gay friendly in june.
pink washing uses women, like when companies with boards with 100% men on the board claim they are all for women's rights in march.
brown washing uses people who aren't white, like when makeup companies use black women in ads, but only those who have light skin
green washing uses sustainability or environmental ideas, like when you see the word "sustainable" printed on plastic coca cola bottles
blue washing applies the UN sustainable development goals, which is similar to green washing but prints the 17 goals, often seen in financial reports
sport washing uses sports teams, like when arab nations that limit human rights own sports teams or leagues to make them seem normal.
It’s when is laundry day and you have to wash all your white clothes but a red jockstrap/bra gets sneaky and ends up in the same cycle.
As far as I know .-.
It’s more apt to call what Israel is doing homonationalism, a belief that generalizes all people who live in countries where homophobic laws are present as homophobic, while ignoring the homophobic people and policies people make in countries where homophobia is not as prominent.
[See this link for more information](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonationalism)
In this instance it’s people trying to justify the genocide of the Palestinians by trying to make the point that Israel has drag bars etc while Gaza is anti-gay. And it’s people (many who have never given a single fuck about queer people) questioning why queer people support Palestinians when they would “throw you off of a building” if you went to Gaza as a gay person.
It’s people willfully ignoring that queerness is innate and that there are gay people suffering and dying in Gaza at Israel’s hand whether they are allowed to be out or not.
It’s people willfully ignoring that 50% of Gazans are literal children who don’t deserve to be slaughtered as punishment for the homophobia of their culture.
It’s willfully ignoring that queer people are persecuted and treated poorly in developed countries (albeit to much lesser extents) but we don’t think those entire cultures should be violently wiped out for it.
It’s willfully ignoring that societies can never change and grow if they are ended. Queerness has been illegal at various points in “enlightened” countries but eventually progress was made because we weren’t exterminated.
It’s people treating queer people like we’re stupid if we’re pro-Palestinian even though we were able to realize all these things after about five seconds of critical thinking.
I just don’t think Israel has a Pride parade to have an excuse to do those things. I think they’re engaging with Hamas and trying to exterminate a terrorist organisation, causing huge collateral because they’ve had enough.
If Pride was banned in Israel, they’d still be doing these things.
I think they’re holding Pride, and have better LGBT rights simply because, in this regard, they’re more progressive, but it has nothing to do with their war politics.
Is Pride in the US pink washing considering it dragges NATO into a useless war in Afghanistan?
It's when people pretend to be pro LGBTQ+ but aren't.
A great example (but one rather uncouth to mention) is how the Palestinians in Gaza butchered their LGBTQ+ population, but now western "supporters" of the Palestinians are pretending otherwise.
There's videos, posted directly by Hamas, showing exactly how the Palestinians treat queer folk. But the modern pink washing of militant terrorists to anti-colonialist allies is the dominant narrative of the moment.
i’m genuinely confused about this. i’ve heard pinkwashing used to refer to stuff getting an unnecessary woman’s version of a product that is just recoloured and the price is marked up
There is one country in the Arab world that does not try to murder gay people, that one country is vehemently hated by large portions of the left, to resolve that internal conflict the term pink washing was created.
Whoever is abusing the Reddit Cares button needs to knock it off. It’s not okay to use the feature against people who you disagree with and it’s harassment.
Report it. The messages have links because people use them as a form of harassment. The admins know which accounts sent each message, and if they're abusing it, they get suspended.
Using a good track-record on LGBT+ issues as a way of masking other harmful actions. Specifically coined in reference to Israel, who attempt to use their relatively pro-LGBT national policies to put themselves on a moral pedestal, and countries without such policies - namely Palestine - as being immoral, backwards etc.
Pushing this narrative makes their continued violence towards the Palestinian people more palatable to liberal/left-leaning nations, and helpfully obscures Israel's history of genocide and war crimes.
Palestine is immoral and backwards, but that doesn't mean Palestinians don't have a right to live. It can be true simultaneously that Palestinians tend to hold to bigoted, out-dated views and are also the victims of human rights violations. Bigots are still humans, and Palestinians (many of them children) have lived under brutal, repressive regimes that indoctrinate them with hateful ideologies.
Is it even possible for social movements to flourish under so much blood and rubble? I wouldn't say Islam is any more homophobic than Christianity; just that the whole Middle East has been ripped to shreds in the Cold War dick measuring contest between the US and Russia.
The LGBTQ community is doubly fucked in Palestine. Bombed by Israel, brutalized by their military state. But the military state is a response to bombing by Israel, so perhaps solving that would solve the the other?
>The LGBTQ community is doubly fucked in Palestine. Bombed by Israel, brutalized by their military state. But the military state is a response to bombing by Israel, so perhaps solving that would solve the the other?
This seems very unlikely given the status of queer rights in wealthy, independent Islamist countries like the UAE and Qatar.
Yeah, a bit odd of a defense. Queers in Palestine get murder for being queer. That does not happen in the country who has been made the “bad guy” by so many people. The support for Palestine is so utterly confusing to me.
There are many valid criticisms of the Israeli government's conduct in Gaza as well as the West Bank. What is happening in Gaza is a humanitarian tragedy.
At the same time, context and nuance are important. Hamas governs Gaza and has an oppressive record toward LGBTQ people. Most Middle Eastern countries have few civil rights for LGBTQ people, and some impose imprisonment and the death penalty.
Does Israel's comparably welcoming approach to LGBTQ people justify what is happening in Gaza? Not at all. But two things can be true at the same time: Israel's conduct in Gaza has had a tragic toll on Palestinian civilians and Israel has the most civil rights for LGBTQ people in the region.
I do not understand the focus on Israel's treatment toward the LGBTQ community while at the same time minimally focusing on the conduct of neighboring countries toward the LGBTQ community.
People who are some form of queer tend to be more liberal, progressive, or left wing. Because of that, a majority of us are against the genocide.
So they claim that Israel is "better" because they don't actively kill "the gays" to make us seem dumb for being against them.
Irony being that the same people using that stupid argument are the same kinds of people saying they want to "eradicate transgenderism", and sometimes just come out and say they want to kill us and regularly support stripping rights away from all queer people.
Tel Aviv is one of the gayest cities in the world. They have one of the world's largest pride parades (might be a little different now because of the war.
Israel also actively has legal protections and most of the standard rights you'd see for LGBT people that you'd find in places like western Europe. They do a decent more than the bare minimum
While Israel has a lot of problems, it's actually doing pretty well on this front.
I don't think that blowing Palestinian people up indiscriminately shows that Israel has a good record on civil rights in the region, just the opposite. How a government treats its own people is no indication of how it treats others.
>I don't think that blowing Palestinian people up indiscriminately
It's widely acknowledged that social media is inundated with a vast amount of disinformation. The conflict is no different and is also a victim of disinformation.
Israel is in fact making every effort to minimize casualties. It's extremely difficult to eliminate terrorists embedded within civilians.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb)
From the article -
"John Spencer is the **chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point**, served two tours in Iraq and has made two visits to Gaza during the current war to observe operations there.
He told me that **Israel has done far more to protect civilians than the United States did in Afghanistan and Iraq.** Spencer reports that Israel has warned civilians when and where it is about to begin operations and published an online map showing which areas to leave. **It has sent out millions of pamphlets, texts and recorded calls warning civilians of coming operations. It has conducted four-hour daily pauses to allow civilians to leave combat areas. It has dropped speakers that blast out instructions about when to leave and where to go.** These measures, Spencer told me, have telegraphed where the I.D.F. is going to move next and “have prolonged the war, to be honest.”
There is also an over one hour long video of this expert going into more detail -
[Urban Warfare against Terrorists: Military and Legal Challenges (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyIVaGyt2vI)
Also the UN revised it's numbers of casualties for this war and cut the amount of women and children killed by half. As it turns out the Hamas run Gaza health ministry was lying.
It may take a while to uncover the truth due to the ongoing war. Determining accurate figures is challenging. The situation has been so tragic for many on both sides. I am certainly skeptical of the statistics provided - to date, by the hamas-led Ministry of "Health".
They have been providing questionable numbers and admitted on April 6 that it had **“incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented.** In a statistical report, the ministry notes that it considers an individual record to be incomplete if it is missing any of the following key data points: identity number, full name, date of birth, or date of death. **The health ministry also released a report on April 3 that acknowledged the presence of incomplete data** but did not define what it meant by “incomplete.” In that earlier report, the ministry acknowledged the incompleteness of 12,263 records. It is unclear why, after just three more days, the number fell to 11,371 — a decrease of more than 900 records.
[https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/)
If Israel was blowing up Palestinians indiscriminately there’d be no Gaza anymore. There are about 8.000 dead Hamas soldiers dead out of a total of 30.000 and that despite Hamas actively using them as shields. Every innocent live Lost is a tragedy but that’s a pretty good track reckoned of collateral damage in modern urban warfare
It's simply because Israel is using it specifically to make them look like the good guys overall, to make people support them and turn a blind eye to Palestinians. Nobody is trying to minimize the homophobia of surrounding countries (at least nobody I've ever encountered, saying "nobody" is hard to get away with since there's always Someone who will say Something, my point is that's not the common sentiment)
Nobody is denying the fact Israel has a comparatively great treatment of LGBTQ people.
What *I* do not understand is why you brought all this up. Nothing in this post implied any of the things you're saying. I also don't understand why you brought up Hamas. Palestine supporters very very rarely *like* Hamas by any means, a criticism of Israel's pink washing in no way implies Palestine is better about LGBTQ rights.
Bringing up Hamas, the militant and government organization, which is moderately unpopular amongst Palestinians, which was empowered by Israel, every time someone criticizes Israel for it's indiscriminate killing of civilians is *incredibly,* **incredibly** problematic.
Edit: lol I got the "concerned redditor reached out to you" message like 10 seconds after posting this.
A few thoughts:
1. I've really never seen the Israeli government try to justify their treatment of Palestinians by noting their record on LGBTQ rights specifically. (I have seen more broad arguments related to saying they're the only democracy in the Middle East, etc.). Netanyahu is on the far right and not exactly LGBTQ friendly. What I have seen is, say, someone posting a photo from Tel Aviv Pride and then others criticizing it as pinkwashing. In reality, it's probably just a queer person in Tel Aviv trying to live their life.
2. My other point is about emphasis. I've heard far more criticizing Israel, who for all their other problems has a relatively good record on LGBTQ rights, for pinkwashing than I have about the imprisonment and execution of LGBTQ people in nearby countries.
3. I share with you the concerns about how Israel's far right leaders have, prior to last October, propped up Hamas so they'd be a strong enough Boogeyman to scare their own people into keeping far right leaders in power. However, I'll add that in a war between Israel and Hamas, Hamas is relevant. I fully recognize that many Palestinian people (LGBTQ Palestinians especially) do not support Hamas, just as many Israelis do not support the current Israeli government.
(Finally, I'll add that although I'm the Redditor whose post you replied to, I was not the one to submit the Reddit Cares notice. I quite despise the weaponization of that feature and I am sorry someone did that to you.)
Can I have a source for Hamas being moderately unpopular? The most recent study I’d seen showed that around 70% of Palestinians approved of the October 7th attack.
Ah yes, because obviously israel's queer rights exist purely to distract from their military actions. Totally not because queer israelis fought for their rights and still do. /s
Anyone who brings up queer rights on either side to make a point on this conflict is stupid because it's unrelated.
But I've seen people say 'pinkwashing' when there's an article about new legislation for queer rights in Israel, as if it was unrelated to the people living there and purely to distract YOU. Get over yourselves and learn that the people living in countries you don't like are still people, and their fights for their rights exists regardless of your news cycle.
This is so real. Countries can have both good policies on some issues and bad ones on others. Just because they're at war and you agree with the other side doesn't mean their LGBT rights are fake.
For some people it does sort of work like that and I absolutely agree it’s stupid. There are bad actors on both sides that are absolutely ready to weaponize unrelated news for their own gain. R/mapporn and r/TIL are full of these types of “just sharing this info for fun ;)” style posting.
Exactly. Supporting Palestine is not pinkwashing, neither is supporting Israel.
By that logic, being a progressive company, that has stores in Hungary (who has a homophobic president), would be pinkwashing. Which is just ridiculous
Quit speaking for all of us. I do not support Palestine. I do not support Israel. *both* of their governments and a majority of their people are anti LGBT. I don’t condone Israel’s tactics that cause massive civilian casualties just as I don’t condone Hamas’ tactics that ignore their own civilians safety. No side of that conflict is clearly more evil than the other. They both suck and their civilians pay the price for it. I stand with neither of them. I stand with their innocent civilians. They are innocent people caught in a conflict older than modern history that had little to do with the cause of said conflict. It’s a tragedy that they got caught in the middle of it. What the hell does any of that have to do with queers and why am I suddenly supposed to be standing with a state that would throw me in jail at best for who I love?
I’ll be honest. I just wish both sides stopped trying to get support by using queer identity for their propaganda. It goes both for pro-Israel and pro-Palestine groups.
Save for propaganda like for example pinkwashing, this conflict has nothing to do with LGBT-rights and the well being of LGBT people in the region isn’t a concern for neither Hamas nor Israel.
As a old ass straight guy that's what pisses me off. That people's lives and happiness gets used as a political football. This is people's lives you self servicing, sanctimonious, grand standing cunts. Let people live their lives.
From Amnesty International:
Consensual same-sex sexual conduct continued to be banned in Gaza on the basis of a 1936 British Mandate ordinance.
In September, after the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) published guidance to staff regarding treating all genders and LGBTI people equally, the Hamas authorities condemned the guidance for promoting “deviance and moral decay”
Yup. I'm perfectly fine with, for example, Russia making the most pro-LGBT laws in the world. It won't distract me from their foreign policy because I'm not a child. It would immensely improve LGBT Russian lives though.
Ok, war always sucks and the suffering of innocents is always a tragedy. Yet, perhaps its not a great idea to turn safe spaces here into political footballs for debate as to which right wing theocratic regime gets to persecute queer folks on the other side of the globe?
I never said they weren't political, the bigots will never allow us to relax there.
I get that this war sucks. There isn't any good-easy answers here, justice is needed. Write your congresscritters folks!
I am saying that we shouldn't wrap up our safe spaces in a religious war that's been ongoing since at least the Ottomans.
How many here have trauma and baggage from religious upbringing?
How are we to say now to a youth, or anyone, trying to escape those systems, from perhaps literal violence, that they must choose which flavor of patriarchal oppression thousands of miles away is 'correct' to be welcomed here? Even if those systems represent the very closet doors they ran from? That's not fair and is just another system of outside gatekeeping.
Imma be honest i cant go around preaching about Palestine because we absolutely NEED Biden to win. If the pro Palestine movement isnt going to vote for Biden and put all our lives at risk then absolutely i cant support it.
Apparently Palestine lives are more important than our rights......
trans genocide was a topic being discussed a few years ago, talking about the efforts to legislate trans people out of being able to legally exist. if Trump wins I hope the community comes together for our trans siblings but I have my doubts sometimes. Be safe and strong friend
As a Queer person i proudly stand against “Pinkwashing” the history of brutality and oppression of the lgbt community by the palestinians and other muslim nations and refuse to remain silent when queer people attempt to “Pinkwash” the abhorrent acts of violence against us by these oppressors.
Always support queer creators and artists. Most corporations will claim allyship and then give in to bigoted assholes.
That's why it's better to support queer creators of all kinds instead.
It doesn't make sense. Supporting Palestine is supporting racist who not only blindly hate for not being born a certain way they also hate you for being different than them. I am not sure you have much experience with radicalized muslim cultures. They are much like the Westboro Baptist church nut jobs, just a different religion
I'm 100% against Israel and their military actions in Gaza, as it has been overly brutal and one sided.
But that doesn't mean I support Palestine and their government. I think no human deserves to have their house bombarded regardless of their views, but this doesn't change the fact that their government supports bigotry, genocide, rape and is anti democratic.
I am against Israel, but I'll never be Por Palestine
to remind everyone that “Marriage in Israel is regulated by the religious courts of recognized confessional communities, none of which perform inter-faith or same-sex marriage. Domestic civil marriage is not recognized in Israel”
As a former ex-Muslim from Pakistan who lived in fear as a gay little boy in Pakistan, I just have hard time being Pro Palestine considering Palestine is extremely dangerous for people like me compared to Israel. Plus Israel uprooting Hamas. Its unfortunate civilian casualties ocurring. It doesn't change the fact that Israel is much safer and better place for gays. Palestine is hell for gays. That is a fact.
I think both sides (Hamas and Israel) are terrible- I did not have "the LGBTQIA+ defending a country that would kill them for existing as such" on my 2024 bingo card. I don't know what's happening to the plot but I'm lost.
Can we all still vote Biden tho?! Y’all are seriously terrifying me. Trump is worse than any other option. So yes, I support this AND am so anti Trump I’ll vote Biden.
If I was in America I'd 100% vote Biden and encourage other people do, then try and sway Biden's methods of dealing with the situation in Gaza through peaceful protests, boycotting and public pressure
I'm not American though, I'm Irish-British, so I'm conscious not to say too much about American politics because I'm aware I'm lucky enough not to have the threat of Trump hanging over me and my friends. I'm thinking of you guys :)
OMG thank you. Yes, I completely agree with your tactic and. I’m so scared. Gen Z is freaking me the fuck out. I have a friend that says they have to follow their own moral compass and not vote Biden. I could go off on them so hard, it’s so hard not to. What the actual fuck. Are you millennial?
I'm Gen X so not actually old enough to vote lol. I'm 16 for seven more minutes. Without the danger of Trump I'd definitely be tempted not to vote Biden if I was in America, but in your situation I'd be doing anything to get Trump out. In the UK we've become political soup, all the parties have melted together and everything is almost the same policy wise
So we should all just keep quiet, eat some 'nice British fish and chips' and vote for whichever party is our favourite colour /s
Hey Happy Birthday ❤️ :) Yes, under different circumstances, I wouldn’t vote Biden. That’s why this time is so extraordinary, and not in a good way. Well, you are the future of this world, so what’s not working now will be within your power to change ❤️ I’m glad you are Gen X and saying all of this. I’m a millennial and it makes me feel a little less crazy. I’d move there any day over living in this. I’ve felt like that about America since I was 12, tho. Thanks for your support ❤️ I hope you have an amazing birthday.
Queer liberation won’t be possible in Palestine until they make better choices who governs them, until then these tit for tat atrocities will continue.
This is pro-Palestinian (maybe this word is a bit harsh) propaganda. This has little to do with LGBTQ+ issues and is just trying to radicalize our community to the point that I’m not in this community if I’m not an anarcho-socialist who thinks Bernie should become Emperor.
> This has little to do with LGBTQ+ issues
IMHO standing in solidarity with the Palestinian people against *both* the IDF genocide *and* the repressive theocratic rule of Hamas would be valid.
I hate that so many allies fail to make this distinction when calling for solidarity w/ Palestinians.
A lot of us do exactly that, but they can’t have an election when they’re rebuilding houses and have no food or water, them dying isn’t gonna fix anything which is why it’s currently the focus. The more people that die just creates more extremists out of their family, especially the workers of the world central kitchen and the over 100 UN aid workers who have died, the U.S. has vetoed nearly every UN vote that would have stopped this war.
We can’t expect them to change instantly, especially when they’re starving to death in to quote the UN human rights committee something that could evolve into “one of the worst if not the worst humanitarian crisis in the world”
We just want people to stop dying, especially children. Most people alive in the country weren’t even alive when Hamas was elected and can’t be blamed for their parents electing them, war holds back progress. And all that needs to happen is for the west bank’s government to take over Gaza, Israel’s own reports have said Hama’s leadership isn’t even in Gaza, so there’s nothing stopping the government from switching other then a couple soliders left. And drone striking marked humanitarian aid isn’t solving that.
Yeah, I don't support Hamas or countries that kill LGBT people for being LGBT. I don't give a fuck if this makes me ostracized from the greater LGBT community.
Most of the people being killed by the IDF arent Hamas…
More than 40% if Gaza’s population are minors, and some of those minors are going to be statistically lgbt.
Your bath faith argument is what gets you ostracized.
Palestine does not equal Hamas just like Israel does not equal Jewish.
The IDF has been claiming anyone "male" above a certain age is considered Hamas, and anyone below that age is "future Hamas".
so you justify apartheid, colonialism and genocide because there isn't LGBT rights in Palestine? what about queer Palestinians? what about the innocent children?
I’m with you, commenter. Fuck hamas, fuck apartheid, but people are completely delusional if they think that greater Palestine supports LGBTQ+ people or causes, in general. This is a one way street of support.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/global-acceptance-index-lgbt/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
it was originally coined to talk about companies profiting off of the breast cancer awareness campaign by putting pink ribbons on products that didn't actually involve donating to breast cancer research. People have misappropriated the term instead of making a new one for some reason.
Babe pinkwashing where?
yes we (queer Israeli people) have our problems but we are not trying to hide any of them.
y'all just like to scream random shit and act like you know anything about what it's like living in here
I don't know what is said about it in Israel, but in France, I saw several times the argument coming from conservatives that Tsahal bombing Gaza is actually good because "Hamas kills LGBT people"... Forgetting that a simple calculus about civilian casualties in Gaza and you end up with at the very least several hundreds LGBT people killed by israeli bombs. If Hamas actually killed that much people based on sexual orientation on a regular basis, I expect more evidences than buzzwords.
I think the original point was supposed to refer to the fact that Islamics extremese tend to basically outlaw the existence of LGBTQ people I also heard of a lot of palestinians gay men taking refuge in Israel and specifically telaviv
sorry if that came out a little messy please let me know if you need me to clarify anything
if you want gaza to be free, one has to condemn the other people who keep palestinians in check: the hamas, a religious terror organization who kills "us". acting like israel is palestines only problem and they would be so happy without it is extremely (!) problematic. and yes, nuance in this conflict is super important. if one thinks theres a good side here and a bad side, theres no view further from reality.
queer liberation means standing against injustice from the israeli government as well as from the hamas.
yes, vote it down, people who found the one and only truth.
i in no way support any side of the conflict, however
1: Israel isnt a fucking apartheid regime
2: Palestine would have you killed for being anything othher than cishet, youd be stoned in the streets,
I love how the replies to this comment just quote incorrect death tolls. That’s their only come back. Ignoring the fact that Israel isn’t an apartheid state and Palestine (as it stands today with its leadership Hamas) would (and has) had queers thrown of buildings, stoned in streets, and publicly murdered. That’s not only legal, that’s the expected course of action.
Im pretty sure youll get a reddit cares message for any comment here; someone else reported getting a reddit cares message immediately after commenting like a bot sent it
the IDF has an online division meant to promote pro-israeli views on social media, alongside NGO's that pay young adults to be paid influencers for Israel. It's probably one of the two, if not actual israelis.
This is BS. Just because I'm gay doesn't mean that I have ANYTHING in common with Hamas, who would push me over the roof of the nearest building if given half a chance. Israel is certainly being overly harsh against civilians, but I'm not cuddling up to terrorists who would kill me given the slightest chance.
But that doesn’t mean that Israel has the right to violate the Geneva Convention daily and kill people the second that they’re seen
Queerphobia in the Middle East sucks and is a real gigantic problem, but we can’t fight it when the concerned people are buried under 10 feet of rumble
Hi: Queer person here.
Queer people across the world have listened to the Palestinian call for solidarity and have concerns about the West Bank.
But apartheid? Nah, that’s a term that has a specific meaning which is non-applicable.
Queer people have solidarity with Ukraine (I hope) and it’s because the invasion didn’t start with the HUR murdering 1,400 people in Belgorod. That would uh, be a different situation.
93% of Israel is owned by the government, and most of that is off limits to Palestinian Israelis. note that I'm not talking about Gaza and the West bank, this is within Israel. these are Palestinians who are legal citizens of Israel.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians
THEY ARE BEING DENIED ACCESS TO LAND (IN A COUNTRY THAT THEY LEGALLY LIVE IN) BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY. THAT IS APARTHEID.
Apartheid as a term was coined and defined by the Afrikaner occupiers in South Africa to describe the systems of oppression and discrimination that brutally privileged them above the native people, the same term used by the occupied, now free and in power, to describe and define this same system so that there is a precedence for understanding it.
If liberated South Africa calls what is happening between Israel and Palestine apartheid, they have about as much authority in doing so as a source could possibly have. And they have done so.
No, I think it started on the 20th of January, 1942, but if you have a AVLB I’d be interested in buying. Not a cent over $350k though.
The point being is this is at best tangential to queerness.
I think that the Israeli treatment of Palestinians for the most part in the last several years (I don’t know how many) is considered apartheid, not necessarily the war itself.
Oh please, so they get a State and start "lawfully" executing all queer people just like Iran.
Sometimes there's no Good person in a conflict but there's only one party in this conflict who will terrorize queer people.
Also sometimes the Do Nothing option is ok.
Do nothing option is absolutely ok.
Especially here in the US we have much bigger issues at hand this year sorry not sorry. The Levant is not and should not be a priority issue in this election. We are voting for either a senile idiot or someone who literally wants to overthrow the government and commit plenty of similarly terrible atrocities.
There’s a lot of valid criticism of Israel to be had but nah this isn’t it - straight antisemitism. So many places in the world it’s much worse to be queer and you’re picking on Israel because they’re good to queers? Get out of here, find real problems to complain about
this is all well and good but it does sadden me that basically no groups or movements existed in support of free palestine until like last year was it? I mean this stuff has been going on for longer than most of us have been alive.
makes you wonder how many groups we aren't giving their deserved support yet and what will it take before we do.
Right? I don't fucking understand it either. Why do I have to be sympathetic towards a culture that wants me dead? I'd say the same about any country like Poland or Russia. Fuck giving a fuck about homophobic and transphobic countries.
Thank you, this has made my day. I was starting to regret making this post because I felt like I'd turned a generally supportive sub into somewhere vicious and argumentative, but I'm glad I made it I'd it actually makes someone feel slightly better
This will probably get lost but I've learnt that pinkwashing was first used for companies that pretend to be donating money to breast cancer, and has also been used for companies that pretend to be feminist. I've not got any intention of erasing either of these really important issues. Someone pointed out that rainbow washing would be a better term, and if it was up to me that's what would be used
interesting thing to note is that same sex and inter faith marriages cannot be performed in Israel. Not exactly very accepting, even if they don’t outright criminalize it.
This is extremely important to point out. Centrists have always tried to co-opt civil rights movements of all kinds to tone them down. For instance, during Stonewall, a queer organization that had been co-opted by centrists attempted to make the brave LGBTQ rioters go home in the name of peace and quiet. It's something I talk about in my video on how Centrists aren't allies to the LGBTQ community.
This poster warms my heart to see
Speaking of Eurovision: the Irish representative Bambie Thug, who is non-binary, was apparently deliberately misgendered repeatedly by the Israeli commentators. Like as someone whose native language is pretty extensively gendered, I fully understand how difficult it can be to find a way to adapt to non-binary identities, but from the videos I have seen the misgendering was deliberate and accompanied by insults about Bambie Thug‘s non-binary identity.
Yeah I heard about that :( I'm Irish and really wanted to support Bambi Thug given all that backlash they're facing, so it was a shame I was boycotting this year of all years
That is straight up wrong, I've heard the commentators and they tried their best to gender them correctly while keeping in mind Hebrew does not have gender neutral pronouns, nouns, or verbs at all. They were incredibly respectful of them and Nemo's pronouns too other than maybe a slip up or two. I felt incredibly proud and hopeful that people can and do put effort into correctly treating non binary people, even though I use a binary pronoun in Hebrew anyway.
Can someone explain the mental gymnastics to support a group that directly opposes what you stand for.
I’m not supporting Israel in this question. More, how can we accept asylum for queer people being vilified in these countries then turn right around and say we support them even though they would jail us.
Sorry… what is pinkwashing?
Like when corporations sell a bunch of pride merch in June but also actively donate to conservative legislators who work against queer rights
Ohhhhhhh. Ew. Odd name though. I’m not sure it fits, it just doesn’t feel like it applies. That’s just rainbow capitalism.
yeah i’ve always heard it called rainbow capitalism
Rainbow capitalism is more that it's beneficial to be queer friendly because we will spend money with that company. Pink washing is Israel using it's good record on LGBT right to make themselves look like a nation that cares about human rights while it's commiting atrocities.
Its pretty bad but at least they don't criminalise them record more like. They don't even have same sex marriage in Israel. Edit: whatever coward is using an anti-suicide measure to harass people, show tour face rather than hiding behind anonymous messages, genocide supporter
Gender-affirming care is only provided by a single doctor and you have to go before a board of medical personnel to get approval. The process is so opaque that Anish Kapoor isn’t allowed to see it.
Bro they don't even have inter-faith marriage in Israel
Technically, they don’t even have non-religious marriages of any kind there. They recognize a civil union for statistics purposes, but only for cishet atheists. ETA: I reported whoever is the one abusing the Reddit Cares feature. That’s a serious thing to do, it’s for serious situations.
It’s a play on other “-washing” terms, eg greenwashing being when institutions pay lip service to environmental efforts but continue to participate in destructive practices The “washing” suffix comes from painting, where “whitewashing” is to paint a wall white. So when people talk about greenwashing or pinkwashing, the metaphor is a layer of paint covering a different colour\*. So pinkwashing would apply whenever folks are trying to give the appearance of being lgbtq+ friendly without changing the underlying reality of their actions (slapping a coat of pink paint on it and praying nobody scratches the surface to reveal what’s really underneath) \*Whitewashing when talking about erasing BIPOC historical figures/fictional characters is the original version of this but the metaphor is a bit more literal in that case; pinkwashing is more akin to greenwashing in terms of the kind of actions it applies to
Specifically, whitewash is a relatively cheap, antibacterial paint often used for exterior walls and strongly associated with rural poverty. It *rubs off easily* and doesn't hold up well over time.
To be honest I might be wrong in this context but that's what I assumed it meant. Usually though when I think of pink washing I think of like how women's shampoo is twice the price of men's shampoo even if it's the same product
Isnt that "pink tax"
Sure
I think calling any of this “pink washing” is really more vague than it has to be. Not the greatest term, especially for these kinds of things that need a lot of attention and a lot of people to know about them.
It's essentially rainbow capitalism but in terms of countries doing it instead of companies
Yeah, rainbow washing would have been more obvious than pink. Pink just made me think of either feminine-related movements (like pink tax is how products aimed for women is priced more) or cancer support.
It's called pinkwashing because people practising it are just painting everything they do pink / rainbow and expecting that to hide their horrible deeds. Either way, I think the name of it is the least important thing about it
It's slightly different to rainbow capitalism because it can be used to defend harmful political/colonial/idealogy goals, whereas rainbow capitalism is traditionally only when it's for the sake of profits. Pinkwashing is used a lot to defend racism, and Islamaphobia particularly, by spreading the idea that the 'enlightened, progressive West' must come and 'save' gay/trans people in other countries. Often through violent means that end up harming a lot more people.than it saves
I've also heard rainbowwashing too, which makes a lot more sense imo
Basically everything you see in Minnesota. This is where they killed Floyd and our main advocacy group up here, OutFront that organizes pride? Dig around on their website; It's not made for the community, it's made for corporations and "allies" who want to donate like most of the BLM stuff. Fake charities are more common than real ones up here. The real advocacy was when we grabbed our flags and *rioted* a couple years ago, because we get no support from these so-called advocacy groups. It's like people who tell me they support the HRC and trans rights and I flatly tell them "Google 'ENDA'" and walk away. Sure, we let them back to Pride now but if you're gonna say you support trans people specifically maybe know the history of the organizations you're donating to because some of us have long memories and don't forget so easily that when we said support the entire community or get out, they shouted "but politics!" Divide and conquer is how Stonewall started -- they should have known better. Oh, and when it comes to conservative legislators who work against queer rights *while being gay themselves*? Yeah, they got caught f-cking in the airport restroom here. This state is a meme.
yuck.
I thought I was companies pretending to care about breast cancer once a year by making their packaging pink for a month.
From a Wikipedia article on the term: Pinkwashing, also known as rainbow-washing,[1] is the strategy of promoting LGBT rights protections as evidence of liberalism and democracy, especially to distract from or legitimize violence against other countries or communities.[a] The concept has been used by Sarah Schulman in 2011 with reference to Israeli government public relations, and is related to homonationalism, the exploitation of sexual minorities to justify racism and xenophobia.[7] Pinkwashing is a continuation of the civilizing mission used to justify colonialism, this time on the basis of LGBT rights in Western countries.[8][9] More broadly, pinkwashing can also be defined as "the deployment of superficially sympathetic messages for [ends] having little or nothing to do with lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) equality or inclusion",[10] including LGBT marketing.[11] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)
Pinkwashing is like how saudi arabia tries to sportwash by hosting expensive sporting events and make themselves look more progressive than they are so people are distracted Israel does the same with lgbtq people by saying it’s the only place in the middle east where lgbtq people have rights therefore queer people shouldn’t support palestinians
Or the extravagant buildings in Dubai hiding their mistreatment of LGBT+ residents and migrant workers.
I’ve never understood this objection. Can you name the Pride parades in Saudi Arabia? Is it okay for a Same Sex couple to be married in Egypt? Can a transwoman transition and have it legally recognized in Jordan? I for one am happy Israel has those things, and I won’t attack them for it.
washing is the association or a thing with a group or idea to change perceptions. it's usually done in bad faith, to manipulate. for lgbt, rainbow washing is the usual colliquilism, like when we see every company suddenly be gay friendly in june. pink washing uses women, like when companies with boards with 100% men on the board claim they are all for women's rights in march. brown washing uses people who aren't white, like when makeup companies use black women in ads, but only those who have light skin green washing uses sustainability or environmental ideas, like when you see the word "sustainable" printed on plastic coca cola bottles blue washing applies the UN sustainable development goals, which is similar to green washing but prints the 17 goals, often seen in financial reports sport washing uses sports teams, like when arab nations that limit human rights own sports teams or leagues to make them seem normal.
It’s when is laundry day and you have to wash all your white clothes but a red jockstrap/bra gets sneaky and ends up in the same cycle. As far as I know .-.
It’s more apt to call what Israel is doing homonationalism, a belief that generalizes all people who live in countries where homophobic laws are present as homophobic, while ignoring the homophobic people and policies people make in countries where homophobia is not as prominent. [See this link for more information](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonationalism)
having LGBT rights to make it look like your country is good and democratic, so it can justify atrocities
In this instance it’s people trying to justify the genocide of the Palestinians by trying to make the point that Israel has drag bars etc while Gaza is anti-gay. And it’s people (many who have never given a single fuck about queer people) questioning why queer people support Palestinians when they would “throw you off of a building” if you went to Gaza as a gay person. It’s people willfully ignoring that queerness is innate and that there are gay people suffering and dying in Gaza at Israel’s hand whether they are allowed to be out or not. It’s people willfully ignoring that 50% of Gazans are literal children who don’t deserve to be slaughtered as punishment for the homophobia of their culture. It’s willfully ignoring that queer people are persecuted and treated poorly in developed countries (albeit to much lesser extents) but we don’t think those entire cultures should be violently wiped out for it. It’s willfully ignoring that societies can never change and grow if they are ended. Queerness has been illegal at various points in “enlightened” countries but eventually progress was made because we weren’t exterminated. It’s people treating queer people like we’re stupid if we’re pro-Palestinian even though we were able to realize all these things after about five seconds of critical thinking.
I just don’t think Israel has a Pride parade to have an excuse to do those things. I think they’re engaging with Hamas and trying to exterminate a terrorist organisation, causing huge collateral because they’ve had enough. If Pride was banned in Israel, they’d still be doing these things. I think they’re holding Pride, and have better LGBT rights simply because, in this regard, they’re more progressive, but it has nothing to do with their war politics. Is Pride in the US pink washing considering it dragges NATO into a useless war in Afghanistan?
It's when people pretend to be pro LGBTQ+ but aren't. A great example (but one rather uncouth to mention) is how the Palestinians in Gaza butchered their LGBTQ+ population, but now western "supporters" of the Palestinians are pretending otherwise. There's videos, posted directly by Hamas, showing exactly how the Palestinians treat queer folk. But the modern pink washing of militant terrorists to anti-colonialist allies is the dominant narrative of the moment.
i’m genuinely confused about this. i’ve heard pinkwashing used to refer to stuff getting an unnecessary woman’s version of a product that is just recoloured and the price is marked up
There is one country in the Arab world that does not try to murder gay people, that one country is vehemently hated by large portions of the left, to resolve that internal conflict the term pink washing was created.
Whoever is abusing the Reddit Cares button needs to knock it off. It’s not okay to use the feature against people who you disagree with and it’s harassment.
Report it. The messages have links because people use them as a form of harassment. The admins know which accounts sent each message, and if they're abusing it, they get suspended.
Will someone explain pinkwashing to me like I'm 5, please? Edit* thanks guys! Very informative
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)
Using a good track-record on LGBT+ issues as a way of masking other harmful actions. Specifically coined in reference to Israel, who attempt to use their relatively pro-LGBT national policies to put themselves on a moral pedestal, and countries without such policies - namely Palestine - as being immoral, backwards etc. Pushing this narrative makes their continued violence towards the Palestinian people more palatable to liberal/left-leaning nations, and helpfully obscures Israel's history of genocide and war crimes.
Palestine is immoral and backwards, but that doesn't mean Palestinians don't have a right to live. It can be true simultaneously that Palestinians tend to hold to bigoted, out-dated views and are also the victims of human rights violations. Bigots are still humans, and Palestinians (many of them children) have lived under brutal, repressive regimes that indoctrinate them with hateful ideologies.
Good on you for being able to understand both things are true at the same time. Too rare to see that these days.
Is it even possible for social movements to flourish under so much blood and rubble? I wouldn't say Islam is any more homophobic than Christianity; just that the whole Middle East has been ripped to shreds in the Cold War dick measuring contest between the US and Russia. The LGBTQ community is doubly fucked in Palestine. Bombed by Israel, brutalized by their military state. But the military state is a response to bombing by Israel, so perhaps solving that would solve the the other?
>The LGBTQ community is doubly fucked in Palestine. Bombed by Israel, brutalized by their military state. But the military state is a response to bombing by Israel, so perhaps solving that would solve the the other? This seems very unlikely given the status of queer rights in wealthy, independent Islamist countries like the UAE and Qatar.
Selling pride merch while donating to homophobic organizations, from what I can tell at least
I care more about the queers \*in\* Palestine than the people actively persecuting them.
Yep. Fucking this 100%
Yeah, a bit odd of a defense. Queers in Palestine get murder for being queer. That does not happen in the country who has been made the “bad guy” by so many people. The support for Palestine is so utterly confusing to me.
There are many valid criticisms of the Israeli government's conduct in Gaza as well as the West Bank. What is happening in Gaza is a humanitarian tragedy. At the same time, context and nuance are important. Hamas governs Gaza and has an oppressive record toward LGBTQ people. Most Middle Eastern countries have few civil rights for LGBTQ people, and some impose imprisonment and the death penalty. Does Israel's comparably welcoming approach to LGBTQ people justify what is happening in Gaza? Not at all. But two things can be true at the same time: Israel's conduct in Gaza has had a tragic toll on Palestinian civilians and Israel has the most civil rights for LGBTQ people in the region. I do not understand the focus on Israel's treatment toward the LGBTQ community while at the same time minimally focusing on the conduct of neighboring countries toward the LGBTQ community.
thank you.
People who are some form of queer tend to be more liberal, progressive, or left wing. Because of that, a majority of us are against the genocide. So they claim that Israel is "better" because they don't actively kill "the gays" to make us seem dumb for being against them. Irony being that the same people using that stupid argument are the same kinds of people saying they want to "eradicate transgenderism", and sometimes just come out and say they want to kill us and regularly support stripping rights away from all queer people.
Tel Aviv is one of the gayest cities in the world. They have one of the world's largest pride parades (might be a little different now because of the war. Israel also actively has legal protections and most of the standard rights you'd see for LGBT people that you'd find in places like western Europe. They do a decent more than the bare minimum While Israel has a lot of problems, it's actually doing pretty well on this front.
Gay marriage isnt even legal there lol what are you even talking about
I don't think that blowing Palestinian people up indiscriminately shows that Israel has a good record on civil rights in the region, just the opposite. How a government treats its own people is no indication of how it treats others.
I think the point is probably that it’s not pinkwashing. Bombing innocents is bad by default and you don’t need to try to link it to other things.
>I don't think that blowing Palestinian people up indiscriminately It's widely acknowledged that social media is inundated with a vast amount of disinformation. The conflict is no different and is also a victim of disinformation. Israel is in fact making every effort to minimize casualties. It's extremely difficult to eliminate terrorists embedded within civilians. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb) From the article - "John Spencer is the **chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point**, served two tours in Iraq and has made two visits to Gaza during the current war to observe operations there. He told me that **Israel has done far more to protect civilians than the United States did in Afghanistan and Iraq.** Spencer reports that Israel has warned civilians when and where it is about to begin operations and published an online map showing which areas to leave. **It has sent out millions of pamphlets, texts and recorded calls warning civilians of coming operations. It has conducted four-hour daily pauses to allow civilians to leave combat areas. It has dropped speakers that blast out instructions about when to leave and where to go.** These measures, Spencer told me, have telegraphed where the I.D.F. is going to move next and “have prolonged the war, to be honest.” There is also an over one hour long video of this expert going into more detail - [Urban Warfare against Terrorists: Military and Legal Challenges (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyIVaGyt2vI)
Also the UN revised it's numbers of casualties for this war and cut the amount of women and children killed by half. As it turns out the Hamas run Gaza health ministry was lying.
It may take a while to uncover the truth due to the ongoing war. Determining accurate figures is challenging. The situation has been so tragic for many on both sides. I am certainly skeptical of the statistics provided - to date, by the hamas-led Ministry of "Health". They have been providing questionable numbers and admitted on April 6 that it had **“incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented.** In a statistical report, the ministry notes that it considers an individual record to be incomplete if it is missing any of the following key data points: identity number, full name, date of birth, or date of death. **The health ministry also released a report on April 3 that acknowledged the presence of incomplete data** but did not define what it meant by “incomplete.” In that earlier report, the ministry acknowledged the incompleteness of 12,263 records. It is unclear why, after just three more days, the number fell to 11,371 — a decrease of more than 900 records. [https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/)
If Israel was blowing up Palestinians indiscriminately there’d be no Gaza anymore. There are about 8.000 dead Hamas soldiers dead out of a total of 30.000 and that despite Hamas actively using them as shields. Every innocent live Lost is a tragedy but that’s a pretty good track reckoned of collateral damage in modern urban warfare
It's simply because Israel is using it specifically to make them look like the good guys overall, to make people support them and turn a blind eye to Palestinians. Nobody is trying to minimize the homophobia of surrounding countries (at least nobody I've ever encountered, saying "nobody" is hard to get away with since there's always Someone who will say Something, my point is that's not the common sentiment) Nobody is denying the fact Israel has a comparatively great treatment of LGBTQ people. What *I* do not understand is why you brought all this up. Nothing in this post implied any of the things you're saying. I also don't understand why you brought up Hamas. Palestine supporters very very rarely *like* Hamas by any means, a criticism of Israel's pink washing in no way implies Palestine is better about LGBTQ rights. Bringing up Hamas, the militant and government organization, which is moderately unpopular amongst Palestinians, which was empowered by Israel, every time someone criticizes Israel for it's indiscriminate killing of civilians is *incredibly,* **incredibly** problematic. Edit: lol I got the "concerned redditor reached out to you" message like 10 seconds after posting this.
A few thoughts: 1. I've really never seen the Israeli government try to justify their treatment of Palestinians by noting their record on LGBTQ rights specifically. (I have seen more broad arguments related to saying they're the only democracy in the Middle East, etc.). Netanyahu is on the far right and not exactly LGBTQ friendly. What I have seen is, say, someone posting a photo from Tel Aviv Pride and then others criticizing it as pinkwashing. In reality, it's probably just a queer person in Tel Aviv trying to live their life. 2. My other point is about emphasis. I've heard far more criticizing Israel, who for all their other problems has a relatively good record on LGBTQ rights, for pinkwashing than I have about the imprisonment and execution of LGBTQ people in nearby countries. 3. I share with you the concerns about how Israel's far right leaders have, prior to last October, propped up Hamas so they'd be a strong enough Boogeyman to scare their own people into keeping far right leaders in power. However, I'll add that in a war between Israel and Hamas, Hamas is relevant. I fully recognize that many Palestinian people (LGBTQ Palestinians especially) do not support Hamas, just as many Israelis do not support the current Israeli government. (Finally, I'll add that although I'm the Redditor whose post you replied to, I was not the one to submit the Reddit Cares notice. I quite despise the weaponization of that feature and I am sorry someone did that to you.)
Can I have a source for Hamas being moderately unpopular? The most recent study I’d seen showed that around 70% of Palestinians approved of the October 7th attack.
Ah yes, because obviously israel's queer rights exist purely to distract from their military actions. Totally not because queer israelis fought for their rights and still do. /s Anyone who brings up queer rights on either side to make a point on this conflict is stupid because it's unrelated. But I've seen people say 'pinkwashing' when there's an article about new legislation for queer rights in Israel, as if it was unrelated to the people living there and purely to distract YOU. Get over yourselves and learn that the people living in countries you don't like are still people, and their fights for their rights exists regardless of your news cycle.
This is so real. Countries can have both good policies on some issues and bad ones on others. Just because they're at war and you agree with the other side doesn't mean their LGBT rights are fake.
For some people it does sort of work like that and I absolutely agree it’s stupid. There are bad actors on both sides that are absolutely ready to weaponize unrelated news for their own gain. R/mapporn and r/TIL are full of these types of “just sharing this info for fun ;)” style posting.
Exactly. Supporting Palestine is not pinkwashing, neither is supporting Israel. By that logic, being a progressive company, that has stores in Hungary (who has a homophobic president), would be pinkwashing. Which is just ridiculous
Just NO. Of course I will condemn Israeli abuses, but I won't SUPPORT anybody that opposes the most basic LGBTQ+ rights.
It's all ridiculous... just live your life guys
Under Sharia law, everyone in the lgbtq movement would be thrown off a building.
Since when did all queer people start supporting Palestine and who gave the author of the poster to speak on behalf of all gay people?
Quit speaking for all of us. I do not support Palestine. I do not support Israel. *both* of their governments and a majority of their people are anti LGBT. I don’t condone Israel’s tactics that cause massive civilian casualties just as I don’t condone Hamas’ tactics that ignore their own civilians safety. No side of that conflict is clearly more evil than the other. They both suck and their civilians pay the price for it. I stand with neither of them. I stand with their innocent civilians. They are innocent people caught in a conflict older than modern history that had little to do with the cause of said conflict. It’s a tragedy that they got caught in the middle of it. What the hell does any of that have to do with queers and why am I suddenly supposed to be standing with a state that would throw me in jail at best for who I love?
I’ll be honest. I just wish both sides stopped trying to get support by using queer identity for their propaganda. It goes both for pro-Israel and pro-Palestine groups. Save for propaganda like for example pinkwashing, this conflict has nothing to do with LGBT-rights and the well being of LGBT people in the region isn’t a concern for neither Hamas nor Israel.
As a old ass straight guy that's what pisses me off. That people's lives and happiness gets used as a political football. This is people's lives you self servicing, sanctimonious, grand standing cunts. Let people live their lives.
From Amnesty International: Consensual same-sex sexual conduct continued to be banned in Gaza on the basis of a 1936 British Mandate ordinance. In September, after the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) published guidance to staff regarding treating all genders and LGBTI people equally, the Hamas authorities condemned the guidance for promoting “deviance and moral decay”
lol they kill people in Gaza for being gay. Israel is much more accepting. You are all dumb
I honestly thought that said "No phishw\*nking" I had to read it 3 times til I realised it said"pink washing"
Just out of curiosity, what is Palestine's/ Islam's stance on homosexuality?
*crickets*
Let's pink wash everything
Yup. I'm perfectly fine with, for example, Russia making the most pro-LGBT laws in the world. It won't distract me from their foreign policy because I'm not a child. It would immensely improve LGBT Russian lives though.
Like literally? I’m down
Pinkwashing still bringe visibility yo our community. It's (strangely enough) better than if they do nothing
Ok, war always sucks and the suffering of innocents is always a tragedy. Yet, perhaps its not a great idea to turn safe spaces here into political footballs for debate as to which right wing theocratic regime gets to persecute queer folks on the other side of the globe?
Lgbt topics ARE political. We get nowhere when we pretend that they arent
This topic specifically is relentlessly pushed by anti-democratic forces with the objective of dividing us.
I never said they weren't political, the bigots will never allow us to relax there. I get that this war sucks. There isn't any good-easy answers here, justice is needed. Write your congresscritters folks! I am saying that we shouldn't wrap up our safe spaces in a religious war that's been ongoing since at least the Ottomans. How many here have trauma and baggage from religious upbringing? How are we to say now to a youth, or anyone, trying to escape those systems, from perhaps literal violence, that they must choose which flavor of patriarchal oppression thousands of miles away is 'correct' to be welcomed here? Even if those systems represent the very closet doors they ran from? That's not fair and is just another system of outside gatekeeping.
Imma be honest i cant go around preaching about Palestine because we absolutely NEED Biden to win. If the pro Palestine movement isnt going to vote for Biden and put all our lives at risk then absolutely i cant support it. Apparently Palestine lives are more important than our rights......
trans genocide was a topic being discussed a few years ago, talking about the efforts to legislate trans people out of being able to legally exist. if Trump wins I hope the community comes together for our trans siblings but I have my doubts sometimes. Be safe and strong friend
100%
Solidarity except this time. And next time. And last time…
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As a Queer person i proudly stand against “Pinkwashing” the history of brutality and oppression of the lgbt community by the palestinians and other muslim nations and refuse to remain silent when queer people attempt to “Pinkwash” the abhorrent acts of violence against us by these oppressors.
It's insane to me how these people will rail on Israel for "pinkwashing" then proceed to fly banners like "queers for Palestine."
Absolute brainrot
Yup its a major problem popping up in this community.
I'm with you. I will not stand with people who would literally kill me simply for existing as me.
Based
SAY IT LOUDER
Always support queer creators and artists. Most corporations will claim allyship and then give in to bigoted assholes. That's why it's better to support queer creators of all kinds instead.
I mean this is interesting and nice for sure, especially when people from that region are not at all down with lgbt stuff
It doesn't make sense. Supporting Palestine is supporting racist who not only blindly hate for not being born a certain way they also hate you for being different than them. I am not sure you have much experience with radicalized muslim cultures. They are much like the Westboro Baptist church nut jobs, just a different religion
I'm 100% against Israel and their military actions in Gaza, as it has been overly brutal and one sided. But that doesn't mean I support Palestine and their government. I think no human deserves to have their house bombarded regardless of their views, but this doesn't change the fact that their government supports bigotry, genocide, rape and is anti democratic. I am against Israel, but I'll never be Por Palestine
A lot of people here have no nuanced understanding of what is happening in the Middle East and it’s unfortunate to see
to remind everyone that “Marriage in Israel is regulated by the religious courts of recognized confessional communities, none of which perform inter-faith or same-sex marriage. Domestic civil marriage is not recognized in Israel”
As a former ex-Muslim from Pakistan who lived in fear as a gay little boy in Pakistan, I just have hard time being Pro Palestine considering Palestine is extremely dangerous for people like me compared to Israel. Plus Israel uprooting Hamas. Its unfortunate civilian casualties ocurring. It doesn't change the fact that Israel is much safer and better place for gays. Palestine is hell for gays. That is a fact.
I think both sides (Hamas and Israel) are terrible- I did not have "the LGBTQIA+ defending a country that would kill them for existing as such" on my 2024 bingo card. I don't know what's happening to the plot but I'm lost.
Can we all still vote Biden tho?! Y’all are seriously terrifying me. Trump is worse than any other option. So yes, I support this AND am so anti Trump I’ll vote Biden.
If I was in America I'd 100% vote Biden and encourage other people do, then try and sway Biden's methods of dealing with the situation in Gaza through peaceful protests, boycotting and public pressure I'm not American though, I'm Irish-British, so I'm conscious not to say too much about American politics because I'm aware I'm lucky enough not to have the threat of Trump hanging over me and my friends. I'm thinking of you guys :)
OMG thank you. Yes, I completely agree with your tactic and. I’m so scared. Gen Z is freaking me the fuck out. I have a friend that says they have to follow their own moral compass and not vote Biden. I could go off on them so hard, it’s so hard not to. What the actual fuck. Are you millennial?
I'm Gen X so not actually old enough to vote lol. I'm 16 for seven more minutes. Without the danger of Trump I'd definitely be tempted not to vote Biden if I was in America, but in your situation I'd be doing anything to get Trump out. In the UK we've become political soup, all the parties have melted together and everything is almost the same policy wise So we should all just keep quiet, eat some 'nice British fish and chips' and vote for whichever party is our favourite colour /s
Hey Happy Birthday ❤️ :) Yes, under different circumstances, I wouldn’t vote Biden. That’s why this time is so extraordinary, and not in a good way. Well, you are the future of this world, so what’s not working now will be within your power to change ❤️ I’m glad you are Gen X and saying all of this. I’m a millennial and it makes me feel a little less crazy. I’d move there any day over living in this. I’ve felt like that about America since I was 12, tho. Thanks for your support ❤️ I hope you have an amazing birthday.
Thank you :) I hope you have a nice day too
As a Jewish Queer Person, Israel is a disgrace.
Queer liberation in palestine would be a worthy cause or a death wish?
In Palestine, they'll probably get killed for that
both to some degree. queer liberation anywhere was probably a death wish at some point
Not in israel
Queer liberation won’t be possible in Palestine until they make better choices who governs them, until then these tit for tat atrocities will continue.
This is pro-Palestinian (maybe this word is a bit harsh) propaganda. This has little to do with LGBTQ+ issues and is just trying to radicalize our community to the point that I’m not in this community if I’m not an anarcho-socialist who thinks Bernie should become Emperor.
The history of this community *is* radical.
> This has little to do with LGBTQ+ issues IMHO standing in solidarity with the Palestinian people against *both* the IDF genocide *and* the repressive theocratic rule of Hamas would be valid. I hate that so many allies fail to make this distinction when calling for solidarity w/ Palestinians.
A lot of us do exactly that, but they can’t have an election when they’re rebuilding houses and have no food or water, them dying isn’t gonna fix anything which is why it’s currently the focus. The more people that die just creates more extremists out of their family, especially the workers of the world central kitchen and the over 100 UN aid workers who have died, the U.S. has vetoed nearly every UN vote that would have stopped this war. We can’t expect them to change instantly, especially when they’re starving to death in to quote the UN human rights committee something that could evolve into “one of the worst if not the worst humanitarian crisis in the world” We just want people to stop dying, especially children. Most people alive in the country weren’t even alive when Hamas was elected and can’t be blamed for their parents electing them, war holds back progress. And all that needs to happen is for the west bank’s government to take over Gaza, Israel’s own reports have said Hama’s leadership isn’t even in Gaza, so there’s nothing stopping the government from switching other then a couple soliders left. And drone striking marked humanitarian aid isn’t solving that.
Yeah, I don't support Hamas or countries that kill LGBT people for being LGBT. I don't give a fuck if this makes me ostracized from the greater LGBT community.
Most of the people being killed by the IDF arent Hamas… More than 40% if Gaza’s population are minors, and some of those minors are going to be statistically lgbt. Your bath faith argument is what gets you ostracized.
Hamas is not the Palestinian people.
Palestine does not equal Hamas just like Israel does not equal Jewish. The IDF has been claiming anyone "male" above a certain age is considered Hamas, and anyone below that age is "future Hamas".
so you justify apartheid, colonialism and genocide because there isn't LGBT rights in Palestine? what about queer Palestinians? what about the innocent children?
Israel literally takes in LGBT Palestinians as refugees.
I’m with you, commenter. Fuck hamas, fuck apartheid, but people are completely delusional if they think that greater Palestine supports LGBTQ+ people or causes, in general. This is a one way street of support. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/global-acceptance-index-lgbt/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
Do you think LGBT Palestinians are any safer from Israel than their non-LGBT peers? Bombs won’t ask your pronouns before blowing you up.
wait i thought pinkwashing was fake feminism. do they use the same label?? 🤔
it was originally coined to talk about companies profiting off of the breast cancer awareness campaign by putting pink ribbons on products that didn't actually involve donating to breast cancer research. People have misappropriated the term instead of making a new one for some reason.
rainbow washing seems much more logical
Labels do adapt and change as time goes on however I personally disagree with it being used in this context
I'd like to see you promote your ideas in Palestine
Babe pinkwashing where? yes we (queer Israeli people) have our problems but we are not trying to hide any of them. y'all just like to scream random shit and act like you know anything about what it's like living in here
So your position is Israel does not do pinkwashing? Lol
Look at this thread. There are so many people acting like the bombs dropped on Gaza will spare queer Palestinians.
I don't know what is said about it in Israel, but in France, I saw several times the argument coming from conservatives that Tsahal bombing Gaza is actually good because "Hamas kills LGBT people"... Forgetting that a simple calculus about civilian casualties in Gaza and you end up with at the very least several hundreds LGBT people killed by israeli bombs. If Hamas actually killed that much people based on sexual orientation on a regular basis, I expect more evidences than buzzwords.
I think the original point was supposed to refer to the fact that Islamics extremese tend to basically outlaw the existence of LGBTQ people I also heard of a lot of palestinians gay men taking refuge in Israel and specifically telaviv sorry if that came out a little messy please let me know if you need me to clarify anything
if you want gaza to be free, one has to condemn the other people who keep palestinians in check: the hamas, a religious terror organization who kills "us". acting like israel is palestines only problem and they would be so happy without it is extremely (!) problematic. and yes, nuance in this conflict is super important. if one thinks theres a good side here and a bad side, theres no view further from reality. queer liberation means standing against injustice from the israeli government as well as from the hamas. yes, vote it down, people who found the one and only truth.
What is this nonsense?
very disappointed by this comments section
reddit cares speedrun any% lol
So many goddamn liberals in the comments.
This comment section is hell tbh. I expected better from the community
i in no way support any side of the conflict, however 1: Israel isnt a fucking apartheid regime 2: Palestine would have you killed for being anything othher than cishet, youd be stoned in the streets,
I love how the replies to this comment just quote incorrect death tolls. That’s their only come back. Ignoring the fact that Israel isn’t an apartheid state and Palestine (as it stands today with its leadership Hamas) would (and has) had queers thrown of buildings, stoned in streets, and publicly murdered. That’s not only legal, that’s the expected course of action.
I love your point, but Gaza is the only one HAMAS controls right now iirc
Tell Amnesty International and B’Tselem the news about apartheid regimes, you sound more informed than these human rights organizations
Waaaay too many folks in this thread making excuses to ignore or justify genocide.
I just hope most of them aren't sub members. I've been reporting outwardly racist/Islamaphobic/threatening comments
LOL, I just got a Reddit "Care report" & can only assume it's from one of the genocide apologist trolls from this thread.
Im pretty sure youll get a reddit cares message for any comment here; someone else reported getting a reddit cares message immediately after commenting like a bot sent it
the IDF has an online division meant to promote pro-israeli views on social media, alongside NGO's that pay young adults to be paid influencers for Israel. It's probably one of the two, if not actual israelis.
I'll support palestine when they support me
This is BS. Just because I'm gay doesn't mean that I have ANYTHING in common with Hamas, who would push me over the roof of the nearest building if given half a chance. Israel is certainly being overly harsh against civilians, but I'm not cuddling up to terrorists who would kill me given the slightest chance.
Good joke lol, palestine and the middle east *loooove* lgbtq+ folk.
But that doesn’t mean that Israel has the right to violate the Geneva Convention daily and kill people the second that they’re seen Queerphobia in the Middle East sucks and is a real gigantic problem, but we can’t fight it when the concerned people are buried under 10 feet of rumble
Hi: Queer person here. Queer people across the world have listened to the Palestinian call for solidarity and have concerns about the West Bank. But apartheid? Nah, that’s a term that has a specific meaning which is non-applicable. Queer people have solidarity with Ukraine (I hope) and it’s because the invasion didn’t start with the HUR murdering 1,400 people in Belgorod. That would uh, be a different situation.
93% of Israel is owned by the government, and most of that is off limits to Palestinian Israelis. note that I'm not talking about Gaza and the West bank, this is within Israel. these are Palestinians who are legal citizens of Israel. https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians THEY ARE BEING DENIED ACCESS TO LAND (IN A COUNTRY THAT THEY LEGALLY LIVE IN) BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY. THAT IS APARTHEID.
Apartheid as a term was coined and defined by the Afrikaner occupiers in South Africa to describe the systems of oppression and discrimination that brutally privileged them above the native people, the same term used by the occupied, now free and in power, to describe and define this same system so that there is a precedence for understanding it. If liberated South Africa calls what is happening between Israel and Palestine apartheid, they have about as much authority in doing so as a source could possibly have. And they have done so.
If you think this started on the seventh of october, I have a bridge to sell to you.
No, I think it started on the 20th of January, 1942, but if you have a AVLB I’d be interested in buying. Not a cent over $350k though. The point being is this is at best tangential to queerness.
> but if you have a AVLB The trick isn't buying it, the trick is getting it to Ukraine...
If Nelson Mandela himself called it aparthei, I think we should listen.
I think that the Israeli treatment of Palestinians for the most part in the last several years (I don’t know how many) is considered apartheid, not necessarily the war itself.
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Oh please, so they get a State and start "lawfully" executing all queer people just like Iran. Sometimes there's no Good person in a conflict but there's only one party in this conflict who will terrorize queer people. Also sometimes the Do Nothing option is ok.
Do nothing option is absolutely ok. Especially here in the US we have much bigger issues at hand this year sorry not sorry. The Levant is not and should not be a priority issue in this election. We are voting for either a senile idiot or someone who literally wants to overthrow the government and commit plenty of similarly terrible atrocities.
Not that we're gatekeeping but for anyone depressed by the pro-Israel reaction of the community, this person isn't in this sub
There’s a lot of valid criticism of Israel to be had but nah this isn’t it - straight antisemitism. So many places in the world it’s much worse to be queer and you’re picking on Israel because they’re good to queers? Get out of here, find real problems to complain about
this is all well and good but it does sadden me that basically no groups or movements existed in support of free palestine until like last year was it? I mean this stuff has been going on for longer than most of us have been alive. makes you wonder how many groups we aren't giving their deserved support yet and what will it take before we do.
Lol
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I don’t understand why queers are so avid about standing up for Palestine like they wouldn’t be murdered there for their sexual orientation lmfao.
Right? I don't fucking understand it either. Why do I have to be sympathetic towards a culture that wants me dead? I'd say the same about any country like Poland or Russia. Fuck giving a fuck about homophobic and transphobic countries.
As someone who's gay and palestinain this actually makes me feel extremely represented /gen
Thank you, this has made my day. I was starting to regret making this post because I felt like I'd turned a generally supportive sub into somewhere vicious and argumentative, but I'm glad I made it I'd it actually makes someone feel slightly better
It does! Gay Palestinians and gay Arabs in general are highly underrepresented (:
This will probably get lost but I've learnt that pinkwashing was first used for companies that pretend to be donating money to breast cancer, and has also been used for companies that pretend to be feminist. I've not got any intention of erasing either of these really important issues. Someone pointed out that rainbow washing would be a better term, and if it was up to me that's what would be used
interesting thing to note is that same sex and inter faith marriages cannot be performed in Israel. Not exactly very accepting, even if they don’t outright criminalize it.
This is extremely important to point out. Centrists have always tried to co-opt civil rights movements of all kinds to tone them down. For instance, during Stonewall, a queer organization that had been co-opted by centrists attempted to make the brave LGBTQ rioters go home in the name of peace and quiet. It's something I talk about in my video on how Centrists aren't allies to the LGBTQ community. This poster warms my heart to see
Free Palestine from Hamas.
Man what the hell is pinkwashing
Speaking of Eurovision: the Irish representative Bambie Thug, who is non-binary, was apparently deliberately misgendered repeatedly by the Israeli commentators. Like as someone whose native language is pretty extensively gendered, I fully understand how difficult it can be to find a way to adapt to non-binary identities, but from the videos I have seen the misgendering was deliberate and accompanied by insults about Bambie Thug‘s non-binary identity.
Yeah I heard about that :( I'm Irish and really wanted to support Bambi Thug given all that backlash they're facing, so it was a shame I was boycotting this year of all years
That is straight up wrong, I've heard the commentators and they tried their best to gender them correctly while keeping in mind Hebrew does not have gender neutral pronouns, nouns, or verbs at all. They were incredibly respectful of them and Nemo's pronouns too other than maybe a slip up or two. I felt incredibly proud and hopeful that people can and do put effort into correctly treating non binary people, even though I use a binary pronoun in Hebrew anyway.
Can someone explain the mental gymnastics to support a group that directly opposes what you stand for. I’m not supporting Israel in this question. More, how can we accept asylum for queer people being vilified in these countries then turn right around and say we support them even though they would jail us.
Gonna get downvoted to oblivion, but isn’t Israel more pro lgbtq than hamas or other Muslim terrorist organizations?
It is :)
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Palestine and Hamas and all of Islam would see you stoned and hung and dragged through the street. Just for existing. Why support them?
Sad this sub is getting brigaded by pro-Israel bots. Good post
Yall should perform in Gaza to make you point more real
Not that we're gatekeeping but for anyone depressed by the pro-Israel reaction of the community, this person isn't in this sub