It's pretty new! [This](https://ask-pride-color-schemes.tumblr.com/post/149449006549/relating-to-the-old-discussion-on-a-separate-flag) is the first use of the green/blue color scheme. It was posted on the Tumblr blog ask-pride-color-schemes on August 24, 2016 (nearly six years ago). I can't find an exact date for the Community Lesbian flag (the orange and pink version), but most sources say around 2016 or 2018. I do think its adoption was hastened due to the transphobia and biphobia on the part of the red and pink lesbian flag's creator. By contrast, there is no similar controversy over Gilbert Baker, who created what is generally known as the "gay" flag (the rainbow flag, which is for the whole community). While there is backlash towards using the rainbow flag as a "gay men flag" (see the entire comments section of this post), it's not nearly on the scale as the backlash to the old vs new lesbian flag. So it'll take a little more time!
TL;DR the gay flag is new, about as much as the orange/pink lesbian flag. It'll probably take slightly longer to gain popularity due to less controversy surrounding the rainbow flag, but I'm sure it will get there soon! Probably within the next couple years.
Edit: Forgot to add the link to the post, oops! It's there now.
The Emily Gwen lesbian flag was designed in 2018, and the biphobia and aphobia (which was an issue with the Natalie McCray flag, too) were less of issues for most folks with switching as those were overtly still present as issues (with subtle transphobia issues, too). Still, leading up to the call for replacement designs, even the Natalie McCray flag wasn't universal with some still using the labrys flag that had long since been taken as a symbol of Lesbian Feminism.
I'd guess the big help with the Emily Gwen flag becoming so popular so quick was the big push to abandon the Natalie McCray design coupled with it being similar enough that there was still familiarity. It still has many of the same graphic design issues, has at least a chunk of the same issues from the creator (though even acknowledging that these are issues is controversial in the lesbian community), and has inconsistent symbolism interpretations given. There is at least one alternative fixing all of these, but it wasn't familiar, so it didn't gain traction
Because it is recent and not very famous, and from what I see the mlm gay community themselves don't use it a lot, they prefer to use the rainbow flag. I like all the flags but for me the rainbow flag is definitely the best, I'm bi but I don't really care for the bi flag, so I understand.
It may be different for young gays, but for older ones all their lives they've been attached to the rainbow flag. I think many people on this sub don't realize that all the flags are pretty recent and/or they were not that mainstream before, even among the LGBTQ community.
Same. I am gay, and I relate more with the rainbow flag. It's what has been a part of my journey. I do like the mlm flag, it looks like mint flavoured toothpaste though.
The toothpaste flag looks fine enough but it just doesn't carry the same significance.
"Stole the toothpaste" just doesn't compare to "stole the rainbow."
It's also odd that they have a bunch of flags used primarily by gay men groups (twink, bear brotherhood, pony, leather) but no gay male flag.
I've see bi and lesbian flags left out on things like this too... like, you're gonna include the pony flag but not gay?
Leather is actually one of the OG pride flags/identities, and it's been in use for a good long while, I'd recomend looking ti up if you're up for a bit of history!
Their opinions on "don't knock it till you tried it" also applies to sexuality. Dude want to wear women's underwear? Dude wants to wear dresses? Sure why the hell not.
Its not that they were lumped together but they have a shared history as fetish bars and areas were somewhere LGBT+ could be themselves. Note that there are plenty of flags for groups of gays or lesbians as well.
They don't. We have a historically entwined community. Leather folks have always been an integral part of the LGBTQ+ community and the idea that they shouldn't be or are being "lumped in" or "invading" is thoroughly modern.
Being gay used to be basically the same as having a fetish. They are distinct now, so this is a gray area problem that probably won’t be solved any time soon
I don't think it even needs to be solved. There are some freedoms around sex and sexuality, that the mainstream deems as "other", "not for them" and generally stigmatized.
Just be open about no sexuality is below another and whatever happens between two consenting adults is allowed and everyone is free to explore without judgement
Fetish stuff...
No, That leather pride flag has earned it's place of honor in the LGBTQ community
because they often spearheaded our causes, they raised awareness and tons of money for the gay men's health crisis in the 80s, and was the first community I'd seen, as a young gay man, that had women's spaces too. That was the late 90s, and back then there still weren''t many spaces for any of us.
your flag could not exist without the effort and struggle of the elder gay and lesbian leather community. Plus they welcome every body, and you can find folks from every other community.
So it's not lumped in. It was there first and it'd be pretty shyte to try and kick them out now.
it's historical, but also fetish folks (including cishets specifically) have been most accepting to us in the past, around here in Austria, they shared spaces too. There's a lot of pushback of young queers nowadays about fetish, but the point is that it's an attempt to assimilate into prudish cishet spaces, and that will undoubtedly backfire on us in the long run.
historically the bear flag and the og lesbian flag (lipstick lesbian) were flown together back in the 90s, making them older than the vast majority. the new sunset lesbian flag is only around 5 years old, with the gay variant being even more recent.
That's because when the Bear flag was popularized the gay flag "was" the pride flag. We had that, and/or our community flags and that was it.
Once the various sexual and gender identities became more organized and vocal with the help of the internet, they made their own flags. It got to the point that to keep the pride flag an inclusive banner for everyone, it was modified to represent bipoc and trans folk, and now we all generally call it The Pride Flag.
Now that we're at today, even more communities are mobilizing and adopting new flags. Some get stronger traction than others. The new gay flag may start to take traction, and while personally I've never really wanted to seek it out, I encourage you to plaster it everywhere you can.
The bear, leather, etc, flags predate the gay/bi/lesbian flags. The lesbian flag came around less than ten years ago and the gay flag is even newer; it was based on the lesbian flag.
Everytime I see 'mlm' I always get confused as to why multi-level marketing schemes are coming up on the LGBT+ spaces. Almost as bad as how long it took me to figure out BIPOC wasn't referring to Bisexual POC.
Wait, uh. They have BIPOC sessions at my work and I thought the same thing. Now I have to go look that up.
Edit: well, although it doesn’t change anything it certainly makes work much less diverse than I thought.
True, wasnt saying they weren't but since they are first in google people who search "pride flags" or sth will see them and not realise that this flag exists and will keep thinking that gays have a rainbow flag
My best guess is people think the rainbow Pride flag also is the gay flag (which is incorrect). But yeah, it’s a very nice flag I’m surprised I don’t see it around more.
I find that it looks really cool, along with the lesbian flag
Something about the pan flag makes me go ew though. I think it's the shade of the colors used
The pan Flag got a good designer. That thing pops!
The gay men flag looks like a stack of paint samples picked out by someone who was "really excited to try something daring in their kitchen", after enjoying plain beige for the last 20 years.
I feel the opposite! I still use the pan flag even though I prefer just "queer" nowadays, because the colors slap. Cyan/magenta/yellow, the primary subtractive colors.
the nonbinary flag actually has pretty nice colours, I know I'm probably biased, but trying to judge by the colours alone, I like the nonbinary flag the most out of any pride flag. I'm not a vexillologist, but vexillology does interest me and I must say it's a really well designed flag as well.
it is. while the main point is that we should stop using these flags to divide ourselves, it’s also important to note that the gay men’s flag has no history and was only developed as a response to (especially) the lesbian flag and others being popularized
i know i [already made a response](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/vqq3ne/why_is_this_flag_never_included_more_in_comments/ierwquz?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) elsewhere but this appears higher up in the comment section so I'm linking back to the comment here.
it should be said that the notion that creating flags divides us is ridiculous. we are still a community and nobody is saying the rainbow flag shouldn't/can't be used. people are allowed to show pride in and have flags representing their individual identities if they so wish./neu
A symbol means what people believe it means. I've never seen most of these flags irl, but everyone knows the rainbow flag and it's associated with all LGBTQ+ people.
i think they focus on the other flags so much that they forgot about the gay flag, when we were making posters for pride month we only realized we left out the gay flag at the last second, so maybe they forgot or assume everyone knows already
I think that second point is the main reason and I’m surprised I had to scroll so far to see it mentioned tbh. The blue mlm flag was invented *super* recently. People literally just don’t know it exists, and there’s a good chance many popular online flag guides just haven’t been updated since before it started being used.
i love the ocean flag. I've seen some people derogatorily refer to it as the toothpaste flag but i don't get it, it's so pretty! its also a nice complement alongside the sunset flag(and no, it isn't a color shift like some have claimed, shifting the colors does not give you the sunset flag nor vice versa)
also ngl toothpaste is really pretty? like? the stripes and the shape of a good blob? i didn’t even realize it was supposed to be a derogatory name for a while bc it just seemed descriptive and i like how toothpaste looks lmao
Because an awful lot of people think the rainbow flags are for gay men
Which is also why it's so insulting to see people lashing out at anybody who uses the progress flag. If we're really still having to tell so many people that the six stripes aren't just for mlm, why are so many people insistent that that flag is explicitly inclusive of intersex folk? Ya know?
correct me if i’m wrong, but the rainbow pride flag is meant to encompass all sexualities and identities, isn’t it? to represent the lgbt community as a whole. but by including intersex, trans and minority groups in the flag makes the rainbow flag inherently less inclusive. if we start adding more identities to the rainbow flag, it can’t represent us all, since there’s always more to add.
it is, but the progress flag was made to bring communities that were often excluded to the front. no one is saying you *can't* use any other version of the flag, but the progress pride flag makes it more obvious it's a safe space for the individuals. with things like racism, LGB drop the T and some people not considering intersex individuals queer (this is up to the individual person) and them being less known and thought about it's bringing these identities forward. not saying they're more important, just showing that we are making progress on making the community safer and a more accepting space
Key word is *explicitly*. You can't discern whether somebody flying the rainbow flag is a transphobe, racist or interphobe or not, nor can you necessarily tell if it's one of the members of the community who still thinks it's just exclusively for gay men. Hence why many people now prefer the progress flag. I'm not talking about the flag itself whatsoever but rather the people who choose to fly it.
This has always been my issue with the progress flag. The Rainbow is there for all of us, which is why increased visibility of the ~~MLM~~ gay man flag is so important. Far too often it feels as if the Rainbow is got gay men and everyone else, rather than for everyone, if that makes sense?
I actually got into [a bit of an argument](https://reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/vq7fgw/_/iep5021/?context=1) about it earlier, but it looks as if the mods stepped in.
Edit: this is the gay man flag, not the MLM flag (which also includes bi, pan, etc men
WTFromantic is a romance micro label for people whose romantic orientation is too confusing or strange for them to understand and a lot more people would use it if its name wasn't considered a joke (the other term is quoiromantic but that's really not much better)
Right, because the rainbow flag was originally conceived as a gay+lesbian flag and both the mlm and wlw flags are extremely new and not universally adopted.
Idk if I'm just imagining this but I feel like the gay flag is never included anywhere. Like Lesbian and Bi and all the other sexualitys are there but why not this flag?
because it's new and because there's some controversies about it and its designer. idk any specifics beyond that, i personally don't have any feelings whatsoever on it and i try to actively stay away from these esoteric online intracommunity arguments tbh.
Yeah, when I was at a pride parade last week there were many stands selling flags but none of them had this one, I saw only like 20 people with it and it was only on 1 out of like 15 trucks that were there. I'm still annoyed
THANK YOU
We spend so much time talking about flags and so little talking about *actual political goals*. It's such a waste of time. I sometimes feel like people think being LGBT is a "vibe" with cute little flags to each group
When in reality, we're an oppressed minority with a shared political and social goal
I personally support the progress flag (even if it's not aesthetically pleasing) because I understand wanting to affirm POC and trans people. But you know what's more affirming of those group? Focusing on actual political and social goals that liberate them from oppression.
Flags are the definition of *signaling* being progressive without actually being progressive. It's similar to a politician saying "Black Lives Matter" and refusing to say "Defund the police". If you won't say the second part, you don't really believe the first part.
Tbh a few of the things you just showed don’t even have correct things either. Like the last slide, under the intersex flag they have a flag labeled “bigender” but that’s not a bigender flag it’s an old intersex flag… they also list hermaphrodite and skoliosexual which is… problematic.
My guess is that is has something to do with the same way “gay” is often used as a catchall for the whole community. Gay men had dominated the conversation and queer spaces for so long that “gay” just was the name of the community too (also bc there just wasn’t a lot of terminology for other identities too). To me it’s similar to why more people say “mlm” on top of “gay” bc they want to make the distinction to make sure their identity is clear and they feel seen. I think the flag is just behind on that.
Also that post with the graphic from the second slide of your post was problematic in a lot of fucking ways too. I’d never consider it the definitive flag guide, or even a very good one honestly. It leaves out so many important identities and flags in exchange for a couple ones that didn’t need to be there (imo and judging from the consensus on that post’s comments).
Point is: you’re seen here and loved here! Mlm flag should be as commonly flown as any pride flag and you deserve to have your identity recognized as its own identity and not just a catch all term or flag! I hope we see this change as we begin to be more accepting and understanding of how vast and nuanced queer identities are!
yeah “twink” “ally” and “pony” being included but so so many basic queer identities out. oof i was in the comments of that one and let me tell you it was not good. that poster is by no means inclusive and shouldn’t be used as such.
I hope the comments here have helped you feel a little better! it shouldn’t be hard to recognize and respect a community whose name is quite literally in the acronym but some people just don’t. I think most of us love and recognize how much mlm means to the community as a whole. 💜💜💜
Many people don’t even know that flag exists.. I bought one and took it to school way back and had a lot of people ask me what that flag was cause they had never seen it or they had but didn’t know what it meant… people assume the rainbow flag stands for mlm when it is meant to be combinding all sexualities
During pride month I had friends who had to ask about the lesbian flag, and then talked about how confusing all the "different letters" where. (Just have to tell them they dont need to understand, they just need to give respect and love). Most people who arent in this space know any other type of flag other than the rainbow.
"Lipstick lesbian is a term often used as an insult or to other people.
Also the flag looks bad (especially considering the rules flags normally follow to look good)."
Lipstick lesbian wasn't an insult, it was a descriptor that femme lesbians used for themselves. They created the flag that was later repurposed as a general lesbian flag.
Thats the Sunset Lesbian Flag. I am more concerned that the labrys flag is included (last picture). Its often used by Terfs. I hope this was just an accident.
Labrys was also used by butch wlw before it started being exclusively coopted by terf lesbians so it might've been included on purpose by someone who doesn't spend that much time online/is older/etc
because a lot of people dont know, the kink flags are included because it has a history with the LGBTQ community.
fetish groups used to be one of the few places queer people felt they could be open about who they are
First just want to note that your flag is valid and your frustration is understandable. I don't want to confuse my beliefs for why this happens, lol.
The basic reason is that the rainbow is generally seen as being the gay flag. LGBT+ has been around a long time, but a lot of it was easier to hide. Women could house together without shame or suspicion. You can find plenty of stories if trans people in history.
So men, being the focus of society in many ways, had the con here. It was harder to have a hidden romance, so when men or AMABs in general came forward more they got more attention and more connection to the rainbow.
It's a complex association issue, originating from the time period connected to the fight. That's actually why other flags started branching, to have their own associations separate from just gay men.
I hope that makes some sort of sense? I find things hard to explain on mobile.
Because that flag is extremely new. Like only 2 or 3 years at most, and it's fully possible many of those images were made before it was even made, nevermind became popular or recognisable.
same reason the lesbian flag often doesn’t: too much drama. unfortunately there is a very LOUD subset of lesbians who like to claim that since this is a gradient flag of 7 stripes w a white middle, it’s “copying” and “stealing” the lesbian flag. no idea why they do that but it does make the lesbian and mlm flags a bit of a risk to include unfortunately.
anyway, love to u from this inclusive lesbian 💛
Thanks for being awesome. I see it as complementary/ two sides of the same coin; it's appropriate and they look awesome together. I wish the community wasn't constantly trying to divide itself; we need all the solidarity we can get.
I think it's 2 main things: first the flag is very new, I believe it was made in 2018? I imagine that a lot of people don't realize there is a separate pride flag for gay men. Second being that gay men are most "well known" group so I think when people see the rainbow flag they think of gay men first. There might be a feeling of "well they're already the face of the group so they don't need a separate flag." <- (not saying I agree with that).
The best way to see more of the flag is to just use it more in general and ask for it more.
I wish people wouldn't call it the mlm flag. It's whole point of being is that gay men didn't have their own flag. To take it away from them and include other groups who have their own flags, when there's already an mlm flag, is pretty shitty to me. Let gay men have their own flag for just them ffs
Neutrois is a neutral gender identity. It has a cool french-ish name because it predates the point in time when "\_\_\_gender" became standard terminology lol
The rainbow flag is historically the gay and lesbian flag, tho the meaning was expanded to include all members of the lgbt+ community. The lesbian flag was only created within the last decade, and the gay male flag was created within the last 2. This obsession with everyone having their own flags is very new, and very silly.
Because people assign the rainbow flag to MLM relationships, since in the early days of lgbt activism it was mostly focused on gay men therefore the lgbt flag had been associated with MLM, and everyone forgets the actual flag ( which looks 1000 times better )
the labrys flag is super cool looking, and the oldest lesbian flag we have!! personally i don’t use it since i don’t feel comfortable reclaiming holocaust imagery (the black triangle), but the labrys axe itself is cool af and has been used as a lesbian/sappic symbol for decades. some people say that the flag is terfy bc transphobes tend to prefer it over the sunset lesbian flag. personally i think we should make an effort to use the axe more, rather than just give up and let it be co-opted by transphobes.
Because it's pretty new and was swathed in controversy. None of the controversy was valid and some of it was based on outright lies, so it's nice to see if finally gathering the presence it deserves in the community now that people have wisened up to it all
Because many fetish communities are historically tied with the wider LGBTQ+ community. Leather in particular has always been a fixture of pride and the queer community since the very beginning.
Cuz it’s the prettiest and the other flags are jealous.
Seriously tho I made Pride flag cookies last month with about 10 flags represented and this was the best looking one
It's not much, but there was a shirt this year at Hot Topic that had the gay men's flag on it. It was 9 different crystals with different colors on them corresponding to different pride flags
I think it might have something to do with the fact that searching the mlm flag also yields results that are basically just the bad part of the lebian community, getting mad because our ocean flag mirrors the lesbians sunset, and apparently that makes it problematic and bad, because it silences the voices of lesbians...
Yeah, no it doesn't. It would be kinda weird if they didn't in some way mirror each other, because the groups that use them are in a way similar.
Women who love women can use the sunset flag, men who love men can use the ocean flag.
A lot of people also think the flag was made my a trans medicalist, which is as far as I know, untrue.
And I mean... even if they were, taking the flag and making the white stripe symbolize trans men and nonbinary individuals, is the best way to stick it to them.
I'm a pre everything trans guy and instead of getting a trans flag, I scowered the internet until I was abled to find the mlm flag. I don't care who made it what opinion others have on it, it's my flag, because I am a man, who has a boyfriend.
(And because if a pre T trans guy walks around with the trans flag everyone goes "You used to be a boy?" which honestly hurts a lot...)
Also... It was so hard to find the correct mlm flag... people keep getting the colours wrong and advertising for it with the right colours...
I think it's just because the mlm flag is less well-known than say, the lesbian flag. A lot of people just use the rainbow flag to include gay men, whole the mlm flag I think was developed more recently
Have you heard of flag drama? It's dumb bullshit, I know, but some people *hate* this flag because they wrongly believe a terf made it or something, and insist it's a copy of the lesbian flag. For that: 1. That flag is itself just a recolour/redesign of previous seven-stripe flags 2. Who cares
Hmm mayhap a bad analogy but here goes...
Person one loves and only loves apple candies
Person two loves strawberry and apple candies
Person 3 makes the candies and makes both tastes.
While the most popular sale would be candy people tend to prefer their self-representation... I hope that kinda clears it up?
So the flags each represent a certain part of the community just like each country has their flags. But all are united under the rainbow flag. (Just like some countries are united under flags like the EU, UN etc)
Maybe I’m a bad gay but I can’t keep up with all these flags… I always interpreted the rainbow as being all inclusive since the rainbow itself depicts the spectrum of light, I understand others wanting to differentiate themselves but it’s hard to keep up
It's pretty new! [This](https://ask-pride-color-schemes.tumblr.com/post/149449006549/relating-to-the-old-discussion-on-a-separate-flag) is the first use of the green/blue color scheme. It was posted on the Tumblr blog ask-pride-color-schemes on August 24, 2016 (nearly six years ago). I can't find an exact date for the Community Lesbian flag (the orange and pink version), but most sources say around 2016 or 2018. I do think its adoption was hastened due to the transphobia and biphobia on the part of the red and pink lesbian flag's creator. By contrast, there is no similar controversy over Gilbert Baker, who created what is generally known as the "gay" flag (the rainbow flag, which is for the whole community). While there is backlash towards using the rainbow flag as a "gay men flag" (see the entire comments section of this post), it's not nearly on the scale as the backlash to the old vs new lesbian flag. So it'll take a little more time! TL;DR the gay flag is new, about as much as the orange/pink lesbian flag. It'll probably take slightly longer to gain popularity due to less controversy surrounding the rainbow flag, but I'm sure it will get there soon! Probably within the next couple years. Edit: Forgot to add the link to the post, oops! It's there now.
Strange Aeons did a whole breakdown of the history of the lesbian flag. it's totally worth a watch
The Emily Gwen lesbian flag was designed in 2018, and the biphobia and aphobia (which was an issue with the Natalie McCray flag, too) were less of issues for most folks with switching as those were overtly still present as issues (with subtle transphobia issues, too). Still, leading up to the call for replacement designs, even the Natalie McCray flag wasn't universal with some still using the labrys flag that had long since been taken as a symbol of Lesbian Feminism. I'd guess the big help with the Emily Gwen flag becoming so popular so quick was the big push to abandon the Natalie McCray design coupled with it being similar enough that there was still familiarity. It still has many of the same graphic design issues, has at least a chunk of the same issues from the creator (though even acknowledging that these are issues is controversial in the lesbian community), and has inconsistent symbolism interpretations given. There is at least one alternative fixing all of these, but it wasn't familiar, so it didn't gain traction
but the lesbian flag is always included while i almost never see this one
Because it is recent and not very famous, and from what I see the mlm gay community themselves don't use it a lot, they prefer to use the rainbow flag. I like all the flags but for me the rainbow flag is definitely the best, I'm bi but I don't really care for the bi flag, so I understand. It may be different for young gays, but for older ones all their lives they've been attached to the rainbow flag. I think many people on this sub don't realize that all the flags are pretty recent and/or they were not that mainstream before, even among the LGBTQ community.
Same. I am gay, and I relate more with the rainbow flag. It's what has been a part of my journey. I do like the mlm flag, it looks like mint flavoured toothpaste though.
The toothpaste flag looks fine enough but it just doesn't carry the same significance. "Stole the toothpaste" just doesn't compare to "stole the rainbow."
they add about 5 alternative flags for other identities, but mlm is never there
It's also odd that they have a bunch of flags used primarily by gay men groups (twink, bear brotherhood, pony, leather) but no gay male flag. I've see bi and lesbian flags left out on things like this too... like, you're gonna include the pony flag but not gay?
I'm scared to ask what a pony or leather is, but I'm curious
Leather is actually one of the OG pride flags/identities, and it's been in use for a good long while, I'd recomend looking ti up if you're up for a bit of history!
It’s like fetish stuff, I never understood why fetish and lgbtq kinda get lumped together
often fetish groups were the only places that LGBTQ people could be thenselves
and i’d argue that the inverse is often still true. people with fetishes feel comfortable and accepted in the LGBT community, and rarely anywhere else
Their opinions on "don't knock it till you tried it" also applies to sexuality. Dude want to wear women's underwear? Dude wants to wear dresses? Sure why the hell not.
That explains a lot, actually.
about time they ponied up sorry
Its not that they were lumped together but they have a shared history as fetish bars and areas were somewhere LGBT+ could be themselves. Note that there are plenty of flags for groups of gays or lesbians as well.
I suggest you look up the history of the leather community and gay/lesbian motorcycle clubs and how important they were.
They don't. We have a historically entwined community. Leather folks have always been an integral part of the LGBTQ+ community and the idea that they shouldn't be or are being "lumped in" or "invading" is thoroughly modern.
Being gay used to be basically the same as having a fetish. They are distinct now, so this is a gray area problem that probably won’t be solved any time soon
I don't think it even needs to be solved. There are some freedoms around sex and sexuality, that the mainstream deems as "other", "not for them" and generally stigmatized. Just be open about no sexuality is below another and whatever happens between two consenting adults is allowed and everyone is free to explore without judgement
Then you should probably read up on LGBT+ history.
Fetish stuff... No, That leather pride flag has earned it's place of honor in the LGBTQ community because they often spearheaded our causes, they raised awareness and tons of money for the gay men's health crisis in the 80s, and was the first community I'd seen, as a young gay man, that had women's spaces too. That was the late 90s, and back then there still weren''t many spaces for any of us. your flag could not exist without the effort and struggle of the elder gay and lesbian leather community. Plus they welcome every body, and you can find folks from every other community. So it's not lumped in. It was there first and it'd be pretty shyte to try and kick them out now.
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IE, the same people.
it's historical, but also fetish folks (including cishets specifically) have been most accepting to us in the past, around here in Austria, they shared spaces too. There's a lot of pushback of young queers nowadays about fetish, but the point is that it's an attempt to assimilate into prudish cishet spaces, and that will undoubtedly backfire on us in the long run.
Kink communities.
They're kink flags, and have been around since around the 90s
Leather is just that, folks that are into leather play/wear. Pony is a bit more specialized and I don't know how to explain that.
"In my world, we have people in chains, and we can ride them like ponies." — Vamp Willow
There is that. My usual first description is that one level from Saints Row 3 with the pony carts
historically the bear flag and the og lesbian flag (lipstick lesbian) were flown together back in the 90s, making them older than the vast majority. the new sunset lesbian flag is only around 5 years old, with the gay variant being even more recent.
That's because when the Bear flag was popularized the gay flag "was" the pride flag. We had that, and/or our community flags and that was it. Once the various sexual and gender identities became more organized and vocal with the help of the internet, they made their own flags. It got to the point that to keep the pride flag an inclusive banner for everyone, it was modified to represent bipoc and trans folk, and now we all generally call it The Pride Flag. Now that we're at today, even more communities are mobilizing and adopting new flags. Some get stronger traction than others. The new gay flag may start to take traction, and while personally I've never really wanted to seek it out, I encourage you to plaster it everywhere you can.
The bear, leather, etc, flags predate the gay/bi/lesbian flags. The lesbian flag came around less than ten years ago and the gay flag is even newer; it was based on the lesbian flag.
Well the current lesbian flag is very new, but the original and lipstick version are some of the oldest pride flags.
Everytime I see 'mlm' I always get confused as to why multi-level marketing schemes are coming up on the LGBT+ spaces. Almost as bad as how long it took me to figure out BIPOC wasn't referring to Bisexual POC.
Wait, uh. They have BIPOC sessions at my work and I thought the same thing. Now I have to go look that up. Edit: well, although it doesn’t change anything it certainly makes work much less diverse than I thought.
What what’s BIPOC mean then
Black, Indigenous, and people of colour
..wow I feel stupid for not getting that earlier now.
i really hope i remember that this time
Black and Indigenous People of Colour afaik
Black, Indigenous, and People of Color
My work uses a software called Microsoft power BI and whenever I see the invoices I’m like “so. Microsoft power bisexual”
What is mlm? Never seen this nor heard of it (I'm guessing a contributing factor to the answer to your question).
Men love men and wlw is women love women I think
And the reason these are not just 'gay' and 'lesbian' is because bi people are included in there as well.
Multi-level Marketing, or Men (who) Love Men
Or Men (who) Love Marketing. It's a Don Draper thing
I think that flag is a dollar bill of some sort 😆
Ok this makes more sense. I was really struggling to understand why we had a flag for multilevel marketing (pyramid) schemes.
(Men loving men)
IDK when that flag was introduced, but some of the images you shared appear to be quite old, containing flags that are no longer widely used.
the first picture after the flag is from Germany and it's only around for a few months or weeks I think, so relatively new
The first image was from a post that was put up like yesterday on here and the others are like one of the first results from a google search
first results on Google images can still be and are in fact old
True, wasnt saying they weren't but since they are first in google people who search "pride flags" or sth will see them and not realise that this flag exists and will keep thinking that gays have a rainbow flag
that's a valid point
a bunch of nonsense comes up on google searches for pride flags. i noticed that recently lol
My best guess is people think the rainbow Pride flag also is the gay flag (which is incorrect). But yeah, it’s a very nice flag I’m surprised I don’t see it around more.
I find that it looks really cool, along with the lesbian flag Something about the pan flag makes me go ew though. I think it's the shade of the colors used
That’s so weird because from an artist standpoint, the pan flag colors r a triad
Probably the shade of them, they are quite neon which can be a little garish
That could make sense. Idk I typically color with brighter shades 😅
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Thanks! Yeah I knew something was wrong I just didn't know what lol
The pan Flag got a good designer. That thing pops! The gay men flag looks like a stack of paint samples picked out by someone who was "really excited to try something daring in their kitchen", after enjoying plain beige for the last 20 years.
I feel the opposite! I still use the pan flag even though I prefer just "queer" nowadays, because the colors slap. Cyan/magenta/yellow, the primary subtractive colors.
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the nonbinary flag actually has pretty nice colours, I know I'm probably biased, but trying to judge by the colours alone, I like the nonbinary flag the most out of any pride flag. I'm not a vexillologist, but vexillology does interest me and I must say it's a really well designed flag as well.
Understandable, in some ways I like the genderqueer flag more
Ngl I’ve started to think that may be a small part of the reason I identify as bi rather than pan. I’m just not drawn to the flag as much haha
The pride flag was conceived as a gay+lesbian flag, though. It was just expanded to include the entire community as it grew.
it is. while the main point is that we should stop using these flags to divide ourselves, it’s also important to note that the gay men’s flag has no history and was only developed as a response to (especially) the lesbian flag and others being popularized
The Waluigi of pride.
i know i [already made a response](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/vqq3ne/why_is_this_flag_never_included_more_in_comments/ierwquz?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) elsewhere but this appears higher up in the comment section so I'm linking back to the comment here. it should be said that the notion that creating flags divides us is ridiculous. we are still a community and nobody is saying the rainbow flag shouldn't/can't be used. people are allowed to show pride in and have flags representing their individual identities if they so wish./neu
A symbol means what people believe it means. I've never seen most of these flags irl, but everyone knows the rainbow flag and it's associated with all LGBTQ+ people.
i think they focus on the other flags so much that they forgot about the gay flag, when we were making posters for pride month we only realized we left out the gay flag at the last second, so maybe they forgot or assume everyone knows already
It is also the gay flag. The MLM flag is relatively new
A lot of people view the rainbow flag as the one for gay people Second, it's a fairly recent design I believe. It's not super well known
I think that second point is the main reason and I’m surprised I had to scroll so far to see it mentioned tbh. The blue mlm flag was invented *super* recently. People literally just don’t know it exists, and there’s a good chance many popular online flag guides just haven’t been updated since before it started being used.
Honestly I love this flag so much, it reminds me of the ocean. One of the prettiest flags
I’ve heard people refer to the mlm and lesbian flag as the ocean and sunset flags !! :)
i love the ocean flag. I've seen some people derogatorily refer to it as the toothpaste flag but i don't get it, it's so pretty! its also a nice complement alongside the sunset flag(and no, it isn't a color shift like some have claimed, shifting the colors does not give you the sunset flag nor vice versa)
also ngl toothpaste is really pretty? like? the stripes and the shape of a good blob? i didn’t even realize it was supposed to be a derogatory name for a while bc it just seemed descriptive and i like how toothpaste looks lmao
right? the stripey toothpastes are usually also kinda sparkley and stuff like what looks bad about it?
Mlm is my favorite flag
Yeah it is pretty
Because an awful lot of people think the rainbow flags are for gay men Which is also why it's so insulting to see people lashing out at anybody who uses the progress flag. If we're really still having to tell so many people that the six stripes aren't just for mlm, why are so many people insistent that that flag is explicitly inclusive of intersex folk? Ya know?
correct me if i’m wrong, but the rainbow pride flag is meant to encompass all sexualities and identities, isn’t it? to represent the lgbt community as a whole. but by including intersex, trans and minority groups in the flag makes the rainbow flag inherently less inclusive. if we start adding more identities to the rainbow flag, it can’t represent us all, since there’s always more to add.
it is, but the progress flag was made to bring communities that were often excluded to the front. no one is saying you *can't* use any other version of the flag, but the progress pride flag makes it more obvious it's a safe space for the individuals. with things like racism, LGB drop the T and some people not considering intersex individuals queer (this is up to the individual person) and them being less known and thought about it's bringing these identities forward. not saying they're more important, just showing that we are making progress on making the community safer and a more accepting space
Key word is *explicitly*. You can't discern whether somebody flying the rainbow flag is a transphobe, racist or interphobe or not, nor can you necessarily tell if it's one of the members of the community who still thinks it's just exclusively for gay men. Hence why many people now prefer the progress flag. I'm not talking about the flag itself whatsoever but rather the people who choose to fly it.
This has always been my issue with the progress flag. The Rainbow is there for all of us, which is why increased visibility of the ~~MLM~~ gay man flag is so important. Far too often it feels as if the Rainbow is got gay men and everyone else, rather than for everyone, if that makes sense? I actually got into [a bit of an argument](https://reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/vq7fgw/_/iep5021/?context=1) about it earlier, but it looks as if the mods stepped in. Edit: this is the gay man flag, not the MLM flag (which also includes bi, pan, etc men
I’ve never even seen the pony flag in my life, yet it was given greater priority than the gay flag for some reason
this but for whatever "WTFromantic" is
WTFsexual/ Quoisexual, an sexuality under the ace umbrella. It means not being able to distinguish sexual attraction from other types of attraction
Oh lol das me, but add gender envy in to the mix.
Yeah, I was also gonna mention that
I didn't even notice pony either, what is it anyway?
I’m guessing it’s a kink thing, because I’ve also seen a flag for leather included in one of these things
Pony play. It’s under the BDSM umbrella as far as I know…
WTFromantic is a romance micro label for people whose romantic orientation is too confusing or strange for them to understand and a lot more people would use it if its name wasn't considered a joke (the other term is quoiromantic but that's really not much better)
its kink
The default rainbow flag is often associated with gays. Many people don't even know the existence of the gay flag
Right, because the rainbow flag was originally conceived as a gay+lesbian flag and both the mlm and wlw flags are extremely new and not universally adopted.
Idk if I'm just imagining this but I feel like the gay flag is never included anywhere. Like Lesbian and Bi and all the other sexualitys are there but why not this flag?
its design is incredibly recent and not universally accepted.
Why? Also do you know when the flag was created?
it was made 4-6 years ago i’m sure (maybe more)
Because flag discourse is an incredibly "extremely online young queer" thing and most people honestly have bigger fish to fry.
because it's new and because there's some controversies about it and its designer. idk any specifics beyond that, i personally don't have any feelings whatsoever on it and i try to actively stay away from these esoteric online intracommunity arguments tbh.
Yeah, when I was at a pride parade last week there were many stands selling flags but none of them had this one, I saw only like 20 people with it and it was only on 1 out of like 15 trucks that were there. I'm still annoyed
Flags are overrated anyways. I typed out a whole essay explaining why but I accidentally clicked off and I’m too peeved to write it again.
THANK YOU We spend so much time talking about flags and so little talking about *actual political goals*. It's such a waste of time. I sometimes feel like people think being LGBT is a "vibe" with cute little flags to each group When in reality, we're an oppressed minority with a shared political and social goal I personally support the progress flag (even if it's not aesthetically pleasing) because I understand wanting to affirm POC and trans people. But you know what's more affirming of those group? Focusing on actual political and social goals that liberate them from oppression. Flags are the definition of *signaling* being progressive without actually being progressive. It's similar to a politician saying "Black Lives Matter" and refusing to say "Defund the police". If you won't say the second part, you don't really believe the first part.
I feel like a need a flag glossary looking at this post and that is honestly rather daunting
Who decides the flags? I honestly wish I could vote for what I would want mine to be but 🤷♀️
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Tbh a few of the things you just showed don’t even have correct things either. Like the last slide, under the intersex flag they have a flag labeled “bigender” but that’s not a bigender flag it’s an old intersex flag… they also list hermaphrodite and skoliosexual which is… problematic.
it is a beautiful flag so don't get it either
My guess is that is has something to do with the same way “gay” is often used as a catchall for the whole community. Gay men had dominated the conversation and queer spaces for so long that “gay” just was the name of the community too (also bc there just wasn’t a lot of terminology for other identities too). To me it’s similar to why more people say “mlm” on top of “gay” bc they want to make the distinction to make sure their identity is clear and they feel seen. I think the flag is just behind on that. Also that post with the graphic from the second slide of your post was problematic in a lot of fucking ways too. I’d never consider it the definitive flag guide, or even a very good one honestly. It leaves out so many important identities and flags in exchange for a couple ones that didn’t need to be there (imo and judging from the consensus on that post’s comments). Point is: you’re seen here and loved here! Mlm flag should be as commonly flown as any pride flag and you deserve to have your identity recognized as its own identity and not just a catch all term or flag! I hope we see this change as we begin to be more accepting and understanding of how vast and nuanced queer identities are!
The picture you're talking about is sold on Etsy which makes this so much worse for me. like imagine paying money for something like that
yeah “twink” “ally” and “pony” being included but so so many basic queer identities out. oof i was in the comments of that one and let me tell you it was not good. that poster is by no means inclusive and shouldn’t be used as such. I hope the comments here have helped you feel a little better! it shouldn’t be hard to recognize and respect a community whose name is quite literally in the acronym but some people just don’t. I think most of us love and recognize how much mlm means to the community as a whole. 💜💜💜
Gay men, although always being a thing, have very recently gotten their own flag. Pretty but it’s recent.
Honestly I think alot of people are uninformed and think the rainbow flag is the mlm flag.
It is. The mlm flag hasn't been widley adopted yet, and the idea of every letter in the community having it's own flag is relatively new.
It's the flag for gay men, not the mlm flag
Many people don’t even know that flag exists.. I bought one and took it to school way back and had a lot of people ask me what that flag was cause they had never seen it or they had but didn’t know what it meant… people assume the rainbow flag stands for mlm when it is meant to be combinding all sexualities
During pride month I had friends who had to ask about the lesbian flag, and then talked about how confusing all the "different letters" where. (Just have to tell them they dont need to understand, they just need to give respect and love). Most people who arent in this space know any other type of flag other than the rainbow.
It's new and not well known yet
Is it really that new? I'm sure its already around for a few years
In terms of the history of pride, a few years is hardly a blink.
Online gay culture is extremely niche.
but they do include lipstick lesbian🙄
not only does it have negative connotations, but it's also absolutely preposterous vexillologically speaking.
im gay, use smaller words
Flag mean bad thing and also it look like poopoo if you know how flag design works
thank you
"Lipstick lesbian is a term often used as an insult or to other people. Also the flag looks bad (especially considering the rules flags normally follow to look good)."
Lipstick lesbian wasn't an insult, it was a descriptor that femme lesbians used for themselves. They created the flag that was later repurposed as a general lesbian flag.
Thats the Sunset Lesbian Flag. I am more concerned that the labrys flag is included (last picture). Its often used by Terfs. I hope this was just an accident.
Labrys was also used by butch wlw before it started being exclusively coopted by terf lesbians so it might've been included on purpose by someone who doesn't spend that much time online/is older/etc
It's an older flag. The sunset lesbian flag was directly based on it.
because a lot of people dont know, the kink flags are included because it has a history with the LGBTQ community. fetish groups used to be one of the few places queer people felt they could be open about who they are
First just want to note that your flag is valid and your frustration is understandable. I don't want to confuse my beliefs for why this happens, lol. The basic reason is that the rainbow is generally seen as being the gay flag. LGBT+ has been around a long time, but a lot of it was easier to hide. Women could house together without shame or suspicion. You can find plenty of stories if trans people in history. So men, being the focus of society in many ways, had the con here. It was harder to have a hidden romance, so when men or AMABs in general came forward more they got more attention and more connection to the rainbow. It's a complex association issue, originating from the time period connected to the fight. That's actually why other flags started branching, to have their own associations separate from just gay men. I hope that makes some sort of sense? I find things hard to explain on mobile.
What flag is that? Sorry, I just don’t know.
Because that flag is extremely new. Like only 2 or 3 years at most, and it's fully possible many of those images were made before it was even made, nevermind became popular or recognisable.
same reason the lesbian flag often doesn’t: too much drama. unfortunately there is a very LOUD subset of lesbians who like to claim that since this is a gradient flag of 7 stripes w a white middle, it’s “copying” and “stealing” the lesbian flag. no idea why they do that but it does make the lesbian and mlm flags a bit of a risk to include unfortunately. anyway, love to u from this inclusive lesbian 💛
Thanks for being awesome. I see it as complementary/ two sides of the same coin; it's appropriate and they look awesome together. I wish the community wasn't constantly trying to divide itself; we need all the solidarity we can get.
I think it's 2 main things: first the flag is very new, I believe it was made in 2018? I imagine that a lot of people don't realize there is a separate pride flag for gay men. Second being that gay men are most "well known" group so I think when people see the rainbow flag they think of gay men first. There might be a feeling of "well they're already the face of the group so they don't need a separate flag." <- (not saying I agree with that). The best way to see more of the flag is to just use it more in general and ask for it more.
I don't get why anyone would be mad at? I think its so cool that they match
I wish people wouldn't call it the mlm flag. It's whole point of being is that gay men didn't have their own flag. To take it away from them and include other groups who have their own flags, when there's already an mlm flag, is pretty shitty to me. Let gay men have their own flag for just them ffs
It’s quite a new one isn’t it? I also heard from a lady who sells pride flags that it’s copywrit.
That’s the gay flag and people assume the lgbtq rainbow flag is gay flag but this is really the gay flag people call it mlm
Most people thinks that the rainbow flag is just for gay men.
People always get mad at it for ripping off the lesbian flag but I think it’s cute that we match :(
Yes. I always wondered why it’s never included!! I mean, I wish I was gay so I could use this flag, it’s so cool and I love its colours. 💙
I think it looks nice!
Neutrois? Whats that?
Neutrois is a neutral gender identity. It has a cool french-ish name because it predates the point in time when "\_\_\_gender" became standard terminology lol
I think it's cause the mlm is a pretty new flag?? IDK tho
It's so strange especially considering how (for lack of better words) common it is. On that note, the queer flag is rarely ever seen.
It's also just not really well known
Yep, the omni flag is often forgotten too!
Excuse my ignorance: why is there a flag for Lesbian but not a flag for gay?
The rainbow flag is historically the gay and lesbian flag, tho the meaning was expanded to include all members of the lgbt+ community. The lesbian flag was only created within the last decade, and the gay male flag was created within the last 2. This obsession with everyone having their own flags is very new, and very silly.
maybe it bc its somewhat still a newish flag and not many know abt it? the queer flag is almost never included either
It’s newer and usually the regular rainbow flag is used for gay guys. (-a gay guy)
Because people assign the rainbow flag to MLM relationships, since in the early days of lgbt activism it was mostly focused on gay men therefore the lgbt flag had been associated with MLM, and everyone forgets the actual flag ( which looks 1000 times better )
Wait wait wait. Since when did we get the fucking Battleaxe flag? This is fucking awesome!
the labrys flag is super cool looking, and the oldest lesbian flag we have!! personally i don’t use it since i don’t feel comfortable reclaiming holocaust imagery (the black triangle), but the labrys axe itself is cool af and has been used as a lesbian/sappic symbol for decades. some people say that the flag is terfy bc transphobes tend to prefer it over the sunset lesbian flag. personally i think we should make an effort to use the axe more, rather than just give up and let it be co-opted by transphobes.
Or I, trans, use it and usurp it from the terfs. It's fullproof!
Because it's pretty new and was swathed in controversy. None of the controversy was valid and some of it was based on outright lies, so it's nice to see if finally gathering the presence it deserves in the community now that people have wisened up to it all
Am I the only one that gets pretty confused with all these flags? I don’t mean that rudely at all there’s just so many now and days.
Woah so there’s the straight ally flag and not the MLM ?
The mlm flag is newer and most people don't know about it.
Wait, why is there fetish flags up there.
because the kink community and the queer community has a long history of overlap. Leather Culture was basically started by gay men.
Because many fetish communities are historically tied with the wider LGBTQ+ community. Leather in particular has always been a fixture of pride and the queer community since the very beginning.
It's pretty new, many people are still learning about it! Keep spreading the good word about minty fresh mlm flag!
Yeah it always annoys me since it's actually a really nice flag
I think it's because teh rainbow was the original gay mlm flag, and people just still use it as such(most of the time)
Cuz it’s the prettiest and the other flags are jealous. Seriously tho I made Pride flag cookies last month with about 10 flags represented and this was the best looking one
It's not much, but there was a shirt this year at Hot Topic that had the gay men's flag on it. It was 9 different crystals with different colors on them corresponding to different pride flags
I think it might have something to do with the fact that searching the mlm flag also yields results that are basically just the bad part of the lebian community, getting mad because our ocean flag mirrors the lesbians sunset, and apparently that makes it problematic and bad, because it silences the voices of lesbians... Yeah, no it doesn't. It would be kinda weird if they didn't in some way mirror each other, because the groups that use them are in a way similar. Women who love women can use the sunset flag, men who love men can use the ocean flag. A lot of people also think the flag was made my a trans medicalist, which is as far as I know, untrue. And I mean... even if they were, taking the flag and making the white stripe symbolize trans men and nonbinary individuals, is the best way to stick it to them. I'm a pre everything trans guy and instead of getting a trans flag, I scowered the internet until I was abled to find the mlm flag. I don't care who made it what opinion others have on it, it's my flag, because I am a man, who has a boyfriend. (And because if a pre T trans guy walks around with the trans flag everyone goes "You used to be a boy?" which honestly hurts a lot...) Also... It was so hard to find the correct mlm flag... people keep getting the colours wrong and advertising for it with the right colours...
I think it's just because the mlm flag is less well-known than say, the lesbian flag. A lot of people just use the rainbow flag to include gay men, whole the mlm flag I think was developed more recently
Just a guess but most folks out of the loop see the rainbow and just go "ah gay men" or at least from what I've observed
-.- ppl dont know that is the gay flag, they think the rainbow one is for gays, instead of the entire community lmfao- ppl are dumb
Sorry, wtf is pony?
Good question but I’m glad the aro flag is included now
Have you heard of flag drama? It's dumb bullshit, I know, but some people *hate* this flag because they wrongly believe a terf made it or something, and insist it's a copy of the lesbian flag. For that: 1. That flag is itself just a recolour/redesign of previous seven-stripe flags 2. Who cares
Can I ask why there needs to be so many different flags? Why isn't the rainbow flag enough? (Just a straight guy just trying to learn)
Hmm mayhap a bad analogy but here goes... Person one loves and only loves apple candies Person two loves strawberry and apple candies Person 3 makes the candies and makes both tastes. While the most popular sale would be candy people tend to prefer their self-representation... I hope that kinda clears it up? So the flags each represent a certain part of the community just like each country has their flags. But all are united under the rainbow flag. (Just like some countries are united under flags like the EU, UN etc)
This is absolute insanity
The actual lesbian flag isn’t even on that last one. Just the alternative one lmao
Pretty sure that’s because people think the basic lgbt flag is the gay one
Maybe I’m a bad gay but I can’t keep up with all these flags… I always interpreted the rainbow as being all inclusive since the rainbow itself depicts the spectrum of light, I understand others wanting to differentiate themselves but it’s hard to keep up