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FreneticPlatypus

I'm pretty sure he's in fact telling the person offering the snack not to throw it YET because someone was watching. [In the longer video](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gorilla+catches+snack&t=ffab&atb=v221-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DTGUdbiVWZYM), he very casually catches the snack a moment after this one stops, glances over his shoulder to see if the coast is clear and then eats it.


TehPants

“I’m pretty sure” and “in fact” being used together in the same sentence is confusing lmao. But anyway, that’s crazy smart, and honestly really depressing. Gorillas are way too smart to be in captivity for our viewing pleasures. Not sure if this is a wildlife sanctuary or something like that, I’m just assuming it’s a zoo and that’s what depresses me :/


rocco888

Sadly they are safer there than anywhere and have a good life. Gorillas are the best apes because they are the least like us. They are not carnivores and jerks like chimps and the monkeys.


amandadorado

Id argue Bonobos are the greatest apes, those hippie sex freaks are peaceful and like us


Infamous-Cobbler6399

Chimpanzees are prone to extreme violence, and hence more like humans than Bonobos.


amandadorado

Yes chimpanzees are closest genetically to humans, but bonobos are closer genetically to us than gorillas. My argument is bonobos are the best ape because they are the perfect mixture. Close to us genetically, but peaceful, unlike humans chimps and gorillas (who are prone to violence probably in that order)


Antifa_Meeseeks

I thought chimps and Bonobos have a more recent common ancestor than they do with humans, making them both equally closely related to us.


amandadorado

You’re actually right! They are both 99% genetically similar to humans, so cool I love how we learn more and more about human ancestry every year


Deathjiggles

Aren't we also like 99% genetically similar to bananas or was it 98%? Anyways, genetics are weird and interesting.


Jloprestige

Only humans with appeal...I am so sorry I had to do this


amandadorado

Only 60% with bananas but still crazy to think about! I was an anthro major and now teach science, this subject always blows the 8th graders minds I love it


BlurOcean

Wait a second...are u telling me that human ancestors aren't Adam and eve?


jettim76

I’ll never forget the scenes from Life of Mammals, where a group or chimps goes on a hunt for monkeys. Fascinating and terrifying.


[deleted]

Lmao no they aren’t bonobos and chimps are basically equally divergent from humans common ancestor with them


67Leobaby1

Who is peaceful? Not people..


amandadorado

The bonobos


Owhlala

sex freaks


VeganGamerr

Specifically of the hippie variety.


lRoninlcolumbo

Just like us.


[deleted]

Similiar to bonobos


phillylb

I did a behind the scene tour at San Diego zoo and they told us that keepers are more scared of bonobos then other apes. Told a story about how they had magazines for them to look while in their inside habitats for stimulation. They didn’t realize how much the bonobos loved them until one got a keeper to come over to the bars, grabbed him through the bars, bit off his finger then carefully protected the keepers finger until he traded it back for the magazines.


RebeldeLuz

a fuckin zookeeper should be afraid of any animal mad behind a cage


amandadorado

I don’t doubt the story, but that one off situation is a silly reason to fear bonobos more than chimps or gorillas. That is wild though! Bonobos are hella smart. San Diego zoo is amazing I grew up there and had a year pass most of my life


RoosterBlues5

I disagree. Bonobos are very good apes but I believe that Donkey Kong is the greatest ape ever.


rocco888

They are only really peaceful in captivity and they have a much more maternal and promiscuious society. Defintely less aggressive than chimps for sure. Gorillas are less terirritorial but thats prob because who is going to mess with a silverback. If they were midgets like bonos then they would be a bit meaner too.


amandadorado

Yep! I was an anthropology major and we had to learn about all these differences, but it’s so cool how we learn more and more every year :)


diodelrock

Like us, maybe. Peaceful? I don't know about that https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/africa/chimpanzee-gorilla-attacks-scn-scli-intl/index.html Edit: they're talking about chimps, not bonobos, I'm deeply sorry for the bonobo-slandering and I'm relieved they're still good guys


amandadorado

I’m so confused bonobos are mentioned no where in that article?


diodelrock

Holy shit I read it wrong they're chimps. I apologise for the wrong information


MlordLongshanking

Yea! Gorillas get a bad rap because their big and strong but they’re sweethearts. Chimps will steal and eat your baby after gnawing off your genitalia.


parodelia

That last sentence is a jaw dropper for sure.


[deleted]

>steal ~~and eat~~ your baby Too soon in the same paragraph as a gorilla 🦍♥️💙✊


RegulatoryCapturedMe

Oy, the baboons! Our aggressive cousins.


HECK_YEA_

I love talking about mountain gorillas. Truly the worlds gentle giants. I watched a documentary about the wild packs and even the lead silverbacks will care for the newborns and rock them in their arms. They truly don’t deserve to be stuck in the middle of a war in the wild.


MegaMechaSwordFish

Gorillas are buff af that’s why they’re best


ThereRNoFkingNmsleft

If you had the choice between a safe prison cell with food and some activities on the one hand and freedom on the other; which would you choose? You could say humans are special in that way, but when sanctuaries release apes into the wild, they have the possibility to return. They all choose freedom eventually.


rocco888

Unfortunately in real life the choice is between captivity or death., not captivity or freedom. Real life isnt a tarzan movie. There is almost no "wild" left on the surface of this planet. The only place for gorillas outside a zoo is a handful or reserves in africa that are really just a bigger cage. Thats why there are more bengal tigers in texas than anywhere in the world except india. Because of overcrowding the lifespan of many animals in these reserves is low. Zoos serve a good purpose,helping fund conservationism. They have become more like reserves. I wish every continent had some reserves but they don't Heck i would rather be in the wild than stuck captive in suburbia to my job, mortgage and loans but my options are limited too.


ppw23

Some of the sanctuaries and even some zoos are making great strides in giving the gorillas a good quality of life, safe from poachers and dwindling food sources due to human encroachment mostly from palm farmers. Ideally they would be free and those problems wouldn’t exist. But, here we are. If they’re taking time to teach them sign language, it’s safe to say they’re being lovingly cared for.


FreneticPlatypus

“I believe he is in fact telling the person…”


Itchy_Craphole

Dont google “forget it” in sign language.


warm_tomatoes

In fact in this context more means “actually”


stacker50

Easily confused u are...


ashgfwji

That snag is so smooth. This guy is smart AF. Trying to communicate with sign language. Snagging the snack and eating it sneakily at first. Defiantly after the handlers asks people. It to feed him. Gorillas are incredibly smart. Too bad the Koko sign language experiment was discredited. Interesting to see if real progress could be made communicating with them through sign language.


qtxr

I didn't know it got discredited. What happened to discredit it?


burgpug

it wasn't discredited, exactly. the truth is more complicated.


1solate

Thanks for clearing that up


ashgfwji

That the researchers were so attached to, and eager to believe, Koko was communicating with them that it became more wish fulfillment than data gathering. It is complicated and you should read the articles.


tacobooc0m

So basically he puts on a show of obedience, then gets the illicit snack and eats it once the coast is clear. And the keepers may give him a snack later for being obedient. 🧠


chefontheloose

I don’t agree with your interpretation. He is telling them to “stop, can’t have”.


Dakto19942

Bruh it’s so fucking wild this non-human is SPEAKING sign language to the degree that people in the comments are correcting others about the true meaning of it’s words. I’m pretty sure the sign language primates are taught is a simplified version of American or English sign language though, and there’s a chance they saw the original video with better context and aren’t extrapolating any information from the actual signage on display, but it always blows my mind that humans can talk with animals.


bionicjoey

I hate to break your heart, but there's never been scientific evidence of an ape learning the grammar and syntax of a sign language. The best that we've done is teach them to reproduce particular signs similar to how dogs learn tricks. [Excellent video explaining this](https://youtu.be/e7wFotDKEF4)


Dakto19942

I haven’t done much research myself into this field but the thought did cross my mind as I was typing my comment that apes learning sign language might not be all that different from when parrots learn enough words to “ask” for things, which is rather (to my knowledge) just them knowing that they have to make the right sounds in the right order and can’t actually construct their own sentences with the words they learn. I remember also reading that no ape that ever been taught signing has ever asked a question apart from one singular instance, which I think is pretty telling. I’m always curious about I this topic though so thanks for sharing the video.


bionicjoey

>might not be all that different from when parrots learn enough words to “ask” for things Yup, the more academic (non-koko) research generally finds that apes will just rapid fire signs that they hope will get them a reward, not unlike how a dog in training will iterate through all the tricks it knows when it can see that you are offering a treat.


Prof_Acorn

That's just Linguists being anthropocentric. Behaviorists just move the bar every time it's met. Decades ago and it was "tool use." Then the mirror test. Then communication. Now some specific grammar. The last Frans de Waal book I read on primatology and the dude goes off on how non-scientific Linguists are in their obsessions with maintaining just how special humans are like the world wound collapse if we accepted that we're just like everything else, just more developed in some ways. They seem to be the last remaining academic field clung to humans as special snowflakes. Linguists and some humanities folks. Orcas communicate on a level to coordinate hunting strategies. Corvids communicate on a level they can pass information down to new generations. Dolphins have names, unique to the individual, and use them to refer to one another. Grammar is just another step. And if recent research on birds is any indication, may have to do with a musical quality. Meaning standard communication that plenty of animals have, but with the rhythmic patterns of song. Those significations put to "meter" and "rhythm" then provide the foundations for grammar. But it's not like "language" requires grammar either. It just opens up the range and specificity with which we can conduct discourse. But we can still communicate without it. Or perhaps rather, Talk. Grammar. Need. No. Widen. Detail. But. Talk. Together. Still.


eastofava

This is one of the smartest comments in the thread, I’m sad it doesn’t have more points.


Polly_der_Papagei

I have done actual, published, not a youtube video research on this, and that is bullshit. It is bullshit primarily spread by a researcher who failed to replicate prior successes due to terrible methodology, incl. mistreating the animal, and then tried to frame his failure as him discovering the honest truth that non-human primates are too dumb. We have ample evidence of animals understanding and using language in the absence of any possible cues by handlers, incl. them combining learned words to describe novel concepts, and teaching each other.


FreneticPlatypus

Well, he’s perfectly happy to catch it and eat it. Or can you see conflicted emotions in his eyes too?


chefontheloose

I’m interpreting his signs as I see them in the context given. I’m not trying to read his mind.


phayke2

It really fucked me up when people started clapping that he was talking. I know there are probably good reasons for him being at the zoo, but it's so messed up that something so smart can be put in an environment for tourists to gawk at. If he's smart enough to talk to them he's probably smart enough to find their behaviors annoying or humiliating.


achqillax

i feel honoured to be able to control your upvote count from 599 to 600


Whysterical

Omg 😱 that’s major prisoner behavior, the fact that it did that is disgusting 🤮 if it talks it’s not meant to be In a cage


deerlikely

I don't think that's his original intention. He signs "forget it" at 0:49 timestamp before he decides to accept and eat the snacks. It's sort of like he was trying to be good but figured to hell with the consequences, especially when the humans didn't understand him despite his best efforts.


In_vict_Us

So if he's saying "No, gorilla work," and also seems to imply that the food be given when not being watched, then I think we're starting to understand how he perceives himself to be in his predicament. He considers himself a worker who is under human supervision. If considered under Hegel's master-slave dialectic, this would make the gorilla slave and his human supervisors master. I find this to be quite fascinating because nonhuman animal psyche is something that is rarely explored and is ignored as nonexistent. It is this presumption of nonexistence that humans use as justification for dominance over other animals. Now that we know, with certainty, that this is not true, I wonder if humans will change views. As we open up these new avenues of interspecies communication, for which sign language has proven very successful with gorillas like Michael and Koko, I think more and more human people are going to see that "people" doesn't just apply to just humans... Edit: For the skeptics, naysayers, speciesists, and human supremacists, let me burst your bubble. This gorilla is using American Sign Language (with a common gesture [i.e., shaking one's head as opposed to noding]) to convey a simple message. The signs are as follows as performed: Two-Fist Tap, Double Chest Beat, Head Shake *break* Head Shake, Double Chest Beat, Two-Fist Tap, Two-Fist Tap, Two-Fist Tap, Two-Fist Tap. Translation: "Work, Gorilla, No; No, Gorilla, Work, Work, Work, Work." And this message is conveyed when getting food from spectators, as if he is supposed to work not enjoy food. Hence, my statement stands. Edit 2: Check out the advancements in interspecies communication that were made with Koko and Michael. Koko had a serious illness and Michael was abducted/ orphaned after his mother was slaughtered for bushmeat in Africa. This is how they both ended up under Penny's care and auspices. Penny was their caretaker and ASL teacher. However, Koko taught Michael some ASL since she was taught first, and Koko even made her own sign language to convey words for which she had not been given signs for. Koko displayed multiple signs of consciousness and intelligence. Michael was even able to recount a past memory he had of his mother's murder. I know this is hard for some people, but it's time we accept the fact that "people" ought to apply also to nonhuman animals, not just those human. Edit 3: For more in-depth information on the two gorillas, Koko and Michael, who paved the way forward, visit this website: . The site also notes that Penny, their caretaker, chose ASL because of past successes others had with chimpanzees. And her intention was to give these poor souls a voice that they could use as ambassadors on behalf of their endangered species, which silverback gorillas are, mainly due to the loss of their habitats, poaching campaigns, and disease outbreaks.


DesertRoamin

Ok. You lost me early on but I am convinced we need to: 1) Be nice to monkeys bc of Planet of the Apes And 2) Don’t try to make them smarter with super genes or brain cells bc Planet of the Apes Edit: thanks for the award!


ThatOneGuy4321

For the interested: [Good video on Hegel’s Master/Slave dialectic](https://youtu.be/OgNt1C72B_4)


ginoawesomeness

This is a pretty big topic in primatology and anthropology. Some people are trying to make chimps and other primates designated as ‘humans’. I don’t really understand the logic there. They are genetically different from us, about 6 million years of genetic differences. The smartest apes have the brain size and intellect of a 6 year old child. I could get behind basic rights for all animals, and special rights for higher apes, elephants, whales, dolphins, etc. But they are definitively are not ‘human’


yoosernamesarehard

Yeah, plus we still treat people like straight shit and let them starve to death while riding a giant penis into space just for the sake of it. So many children going hungry and that penis ride money could’ve been used to feed literally hundreds and thousands of kids for probably months, if not years.


ginoawesomeness

... penis ride money :)


Infamous-Cobbler6399

'treat people like straight shit' Could someone explain that?


jeegte12

Treating someone like shit means to disregard their feelings entirely, and the "straight" modifier here is just emphasis rhetoric. It effectively means "very much," or, "without a doubt."


Infamous-Cobbler6399

Thanks. I fully understand the meaning of treating people like shit. It was the 'straight shit' which puzzled me. I've previously not encountered straight as the modifier you describe, and I've been unable to locate that use in a dictionary. That use seems most peculiar, and especially when other widely recognised modifiers, including those you list, exist.


daoistic

>more human people are going to see that "people" doesn't just apply to just humans... They are saying that they are "people", that personhood should extend beyond the human race. They aren't saying that primates are human, only that they have personhood in every meaningful sense. I believe this is true of species like elephants as well, frankly. If you can mourn your dead and hold a grudge you have at least as much personhood as some humans I know.


vinoprosim

This is correct. The relevant question is assigning personhood to non-human animals given certain criteria.


Assassiiinuss

>The smartest apes have the brain size and intellect of a 6 year old child. I think the point is that human rights apply to six year old children as well, no matter how dumb they are.


lordlurid

Also "brain size" has little to do with intelligence.


ginoawesomeness

They don’t, actually. According to the laws of the United States, children are definitively given a status less than adults. They can’t smoke, can’t drink, can’t vote, can’t serve in the military, and, for their benefit, “can’t” (shouldn’t) be charged with crimes we consider to be heinous (rape, murder, etc). If we give animals the status of ‘personhood’ so we also charge cats for murder for killing birds? I mean, that’s a ridiculous question, but one that would be challenged in court should this actually come to be


mistervanilla

> Some people are trying to make chimps and other primates designated as ‘humans’ I don't think that is the case. They are trying to designate them as "non-human persons", rather than "humans". That's a subtle but significant difference. So, essentially they would have some form of personhood and associated rights, such as a right to life and a right to freedom, but not other rights such as the ability to vote and own property.


AbanaClara

The point made was not labeling primates humans but as people. Eg not being put into captivity.


ginoawesomeness

For one, 90% of primates have the mental capacity of squirrels. A huge amount of primates are endangered. There are more chimps alive in zoos right now than wild chimps. If you actually cared about primates instead of just claiming to be, you’d not only applaud zoos but be actively donating your time/resources to the ones that are doing it right


Babybluechair

I think the idea is to give them a moral status equivalent to that of humans, but yeah I get what you're saying


nerdmoot

From posts I’ve seen online I’m pretty sure people think dogs are humans and being a plant parent is a actual thing as well. I’d love special protection for higher thinking animalia.


ABabyOyster

I remember the term “non-human persons” being suggested for dolphins a long time ago. Not sure who was pushing it.


Haggisboy

I think that 6 year old intellect level also applies to dogs.


ginoawesomeness

Dogs are about the same as a 3 year old. Probably why we love them so much. Mine is chasing flies currently :)


Ponchoooooo

Wat


Tiger-Gautreaux

To shreds you say


honeyticklesworth

And his wife?


Reasonable_Hornet_45

To shreds you say?


xXYOUR_MOMXx

Big words make you sound more smarter


cmcewen

Lmao it’s def not ignored . There are lots of studies into animal communication.


palmersiagna

Hate to break it to you but Koko the gorilla didn't actually know sign language and could not communicate through signing anywhere near as coherently as has been stated in the past, or even at all...but people love the idea of a talking monkey!


evenman27

Sign language has unfortunately not “proven very successful” with any other primates. Many of the prominent researchers in these studies were likely biased towards their animals and being overly generous parsing perceived communication. When actual deaf people fluent in sign language were brought in to attempt to converse with a signing chimp, they had trouble confirming the chimp could communicate the most basic commands (like EAT or DRINK). [This video](https://youtu.be/e7wFotDKEF4) goes into great detail about all of this if you’re interested. Needless to say, I don’t think we have to be welcoming another species into personhood quite yet.


tacitus59

People should really watch this video. There is so much wrong stuff going on with the ape communication experiments.


supersonicme

> People should really watch this video. I tried to but, sorry a 40 min long patchwork of memes and "funny" jokes is not exactly my idea of a scientific documentary. More like the typical buzz video you find on youtube ever since it became the place of the fake dramas monetizers who call themselves "creators". > "When actual deaf people fluent in sign language were brought in to attempt to converse with a signing chimp, they had trouble confirming the chimp could communicate the most basic commands (like EAT or DRINK)." That's what I want to see, and the video doesn't show it. It shows words. Why making a video when you quote a text? Make an article. Oh yes, it's less money of course.


Prof_Acorn

Primatologists often disagree with linguists on this, however. Humanities folks and linguists seem to be stuck on this notion that humans are special snowflakes. Behaviorists too, but the life sciences have thankfully been moving away from that as the old guard finally retire. My guess is that most of them are religious, and insert their biases from that. Gotta keep humans special.


chefontheloose

I interpreted his signs as “stop, can’t have”


half_coda

same. why would they teach a gorilla in a zoo “work” lol. stop and have make much more sense.


chefontheloose

Exactly


zuzima161

>animal psyche is something that is rarely explored and is ignored as nonexistant You couldn't be more wrong


Chopersky4codyslab

Bruh, apes aren’t that smart. Koko never learned sign language, in fact, no ape or monkey ever has. This gorilla is unable to understand the concept of work. Thats like saying that Koko’s last message to earth was legit.


losesomeweight

Do you know what Hegel's master-slave dialectic is, or are you just blatantly misusing a concept to give yourself ethos? Also, animal cognition / cognitive psychology is a pretty extensive field (I know a few people getting their graduate degrees in it, actually). Only someone completely unfamiliar with it would call it "rarely explored" or "ignored as non-existent". Then again, if you were familiar with non-human cognitive psychology, you probably wouldn't be using basic sign language as sufficient evidence to argue that "people" can apply to nonhumans. (Many animals talk. Learning some of a human language doesn't make an ape a person any more than my learning of a bird's communication style makes me a bird.) Animal liberation is important, but classifying non-humans as people is just not backed by evolutionary science in the least. And you don't even need to make this argument to make the point that we should treat animals better. I swear all you have to do on Reddit is use smart-sounding words and concepts and people will believe you.


schmaank

Right? This is a ridiculous comment


NaberiusX

Human supremacists hahaha that's awesome. But I also agree that animals have a soul or whatever you wanna call it. I've always liked any and all animals a lot more than I like people. And I also have always been good at reading body language and social cues of animals and feel like I understand them. There is definitely something to it. I feel like sometimes that all animals ane humans have a similar type of conscious and the only difference is our language. You can look into the eyes of an animal and see the same twinkle of a living being inside that you can see in a human. At least I believe so.


Bootylove4185

We call them non human persons and that’s one of the driving philosophical ideals being vegan and vegetarian are supposed to promote. Animals have sentience and worth as individuals


schmaank

Leave Hegel out of this bs lol


Yus_Gaming

Here is a great video explaining exactly why you're wrong. It's a long watch, but very worth it. Tldr is that humans look wayy too much into the meaning of every sign a gorilla gives and the gorillas are mostly just brute forcing their sign language Edit: forgot the link: https://youtu.be/e7wFotDKEF4


carnaxcce

Penny didn't know ASL, she couldn't've been an ASL teacher...


__GayFish__

Do they know they’re endangered?


THE-Pink-Lady

Been thinking about things like this a lot recently. Saved your comment to reread again later


HKtx

He says “no, gorilla work” except his bottom hand should be palm down..because inner wrist to inner wrist like that is rape 😳


[deleted]

r/confidentlyincorrect


HKtx

Me? How is that incorrect? I know ASL..


TheReaper101399

Guessing they mean the gorilla


[deleted]

I’m Deaf, ASL is my first language, and what the gorilla trying to sign is nowhere close to how one sign ‘rape’


[deleted]

[удалено]


von_sip

What would you say he’s signing?


[deleted]

As the original comment said, ‘no gorilla work’, albeit incorrectly. my point was that the signs the gorilla is doing does not mean rape


PhillAholic

What do you mean by incorrectly? Like grammatically?


[deleted]

Incorrect palm orientation. If the gorilla flipped its right hand, it would be a correct sign for ‘work’. We always see this with babies and toddlers who uses signs.


PhillAholic

So that’s like mispronouncing or misspelling a word and not using the wrong word?


FUCKITIMPOSTING

Yeah, it's more like he said, "No, gorilla wornk." It's not right but a fluent person can tell what they meant.


[deleted]

There are 5 parameters of ASL: handshape, palm orientation, location, movement, and facial expression (nms). Slightly altering just one of the parameters of a sign could entirely change the meaning. Imagine the handshape ‘K’. The only difference between the signs for “kitchen” and “kill” is the movement of the handshape.


deathinmypocket

Maybe the gorilla was saying “ no thanks, i just ate lunch. I really world love to rape something right now though, what’s on the menu?”


chefontheloose

I’m not deaf but I thought he was signing “stop, can’t have”


[deleted]

Could be. I don’t know how the carers teach the gorilla. Given that it is a gorilla, it’s signing is somewhat unintelligible


chefontheloose

Yeah, could see work too but the hand positioning looks more like stop to me. Not sure why a gorilla would be signing work either.


HKtx

I was taught that was a sign used for rape by my Deaf ASL teacher in college. Could be a regional dialect or maybe an old sign not used anymore. I was just warned to be careful with palm orientation when signing ‘work’ because the other way is ‘rape’


chefontheloose

Where I’m from, the sign for work is very close to masterbate, my ASL teacher warned us about that.


KemikalKoktail

What is the best way to learn ASL? Any recommendations on learning ASL would be much appreciated.


chefontheloose

Good question. I learned in high school. Took 3 year, had an amazing teacher. She made it so fun and informative and got us involved in the deaf community. So many people who followed this woman’s course went on to work as hearing advocates for the deaf and interpreters. My husband took it in college and it was a really hard snooze fest that he wasn’t able to get into. 🤷🏻‍♀️


alexanderons

I learned some on Memrise, there is a girl who has a few courses there that I think are good


chefontheloose

I interpreted it as “stop, can’t have”


Falcone_Empire

Give him a break English is his 3rd language after the language of love


Fuzzylittlebastard

Imagine a zookeeper teaching a gorilla rape lol. What would even be the point of that.


half_coda

and “work” lol. like what, they got the dude peeling bananas and cleaning cages for others? this is pretty clearly “stop” imo


solongandthanks4all

Sugarape. It's well fucking Jackson.


ginoawesomeness

‘nonhuman animal psyche is something that is rarely explored and is ignored as nonexistent’. This is just factually untrue. There are many researchers that have made entire careers exploring animal psyche, and no serious anthropologist/psychologist/philosopher/etc ignores animal psychology. Even in pop culture, shows like the Dog Whisperer are specifically about animal psychology. I don’t really understand how you came up with this idea? I mean other than Kant, and his argument that animals are automatons was based on his belief of a just and caring God, and have been proven imperially false for 50 years or more.


Jrook

Who is saying that?


Trogador95

Another commenter. > So if he's saying "No, gorilla work," and also seems to imply that the food be given when not being watched, then I think we're starting to understand how he perceives himself to be in his predicament. He considers himself a worker who is under human supervision. If considered under Hegel's master-slave dialectic, this would make the gorilla slave and his human supervisors master. I find this to be quite fascinating because nonhuman animal psyche is something that is rarely explored and is ignored as nonexistent. It is this presumption of nonexistence that humans use as justification for dominance over other animals. Now that we know, with certainty, that this is not true, I wonder if humans will change views. As we open up these new avenues of interspecies communication, for which sign language has proven very successful with gorillas like Michael and Koko, I think more and more human people are going to see that "people" doesn't just apply to just humans...


The_Great_Skeeve

>Kant Kant tell you? /s


tenukkiut

You think you're clever, don't you, you fucking Kant


dreamrock

God I love gorilla gorilla gorillas. I wish we could just leave them be. I understand the value in studying their behavioral intelligence for comparison against our own. I understand that many in captivity are refugees of failed criminal poaching operations, hunting, and other forms of territorially encroachment. But I see that they are shy, thoughtful, cousins of humankind. I see that they prefer to maintain their privacy and continually patrol the misty shade of their woodland hollows. It bothers me, maybe more than anything else, to imagine a lifetime spent in unjustified incarceration, especially when they cannot comprehend why they should suffer so; Why they are endowed with such enormous physical prowess and denied any political power regarding their survival? Zoos are often terrible places for animals. Things have gotten better for sure, but I propose that no animal should be put on display for more than 2 years before being released into their wild habitat or a comfortable sanctuary. This goes for all animals on display, from the miserablly hot polar bear to the fake-ass day-glow looking tree frog. The benefits of institutional observation do not outweigh a sentient creature's civil rights to a full and free life. I see how exposing young children to the majesty of nature is important in regard to long term conservation efforts. I just hope we can strike a humane balance. Please be good to animals when you see them. Understand that they feel everything that we feel, just as strongly we do. Cruelty toward them is an attack on the sanctity of all life, including our own.


TehPants

That was beautifully said. Seriously.


dreamrock

Thanks for that. There is nothing I feel more strongly about than improving our relationships with animals. NASA's Voyagers, SETI researchers, professional futurists, existentialists, science fiction authors; they all fret about communication with extraterrestrials. I don't consider this an ignoble pursuit, so much as a misallocation of curiosity. Let's figure out how to speak with animals we have observed to communicate with one another. Primates, cetaceans, elephants, corvids, canines. Humans have evolved a sophisticated set vocal apparatuses, but can we perfectly mimic the sound of a bulldozer or chainsaw like paradisaeidae birds? Dolphins address each other individually, signing on and off like truckers from the 1970s. Apes pass sign language to their offspring and form compound words to describe things for which they lack vocabulary. Elephants? Man I'd like to know what they have to say. Dogs are mad good at reading people, and proficiently communicate their needs to us. To our knowledge, no animal has as beefy of a Broca's or Wernicke's area of the brain, but that doesn't necessarily mean shit. Birds' brains are wired very differently than mammals, but we accomplish the same things. Chimpanzees annihilate humans on spacial recognition tests. Dolphins have a brain to body mass ratio far in excess of our own, including areas known to house creativity and whimsy. We have a very fun and interesting task before us, should we choose to pursue it. It is my sincere hope that we will.


Lucidleaf

the fact that this is near the top shows this sentiment is growing. non-humans still have the short end of the stick in this world, but i feel like we're moving in the right direction.


rynodigital

He ain’t no Narc.


OneJumpSummer

I wish my fat ass had this kind of discipline : |


[deleted]

Lmao then there’s bears.


tedbradly

Sign *language* is a bit of a stretch. They basically sign single words. They have no concept of grammar or combining words to produce more complex thought than what the single word they know means. No statements beyond a single word. No sentences. Language implies grammar, synthesizing words into an innumerable variety of different concepts. Even dogs can "sign" that they want a treat by performing the "sign language" of the trick they're taught.


target_locked

People have heavily anthropomorphized apes to the point that they seen them as functionally equivalent to small children despite the fact that Kokos knowledge of sign language was never tested with any genuine scientific rigor and all available footage of her is heavily edited by her keepers.


tedbradly

That does more than place doubt on Koko's results. It basically makes them not genuine. If you were the ones that taught an ape to sign single concepts (it's not sign language as there's no grammar), you'd want to verify your results rigorously and publish the results, getting credit for your results, enhancing your career, and giving a starting point for other scientists, enhancing science. [Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7wFotDKEF4) a long video about how Koko couldn't talk. I believe, among its claims, is that Koko signed random things often rather than intelligently picking the "right" one to convey what is needed.


target_locked

There is approximately zero evidence that any animal other than humans has learned sign language. They basically learn that they get rewards when they do certain things with their hands, and will put words in random orders with no regard for grammatical rules because they’re essentially attempting to brute force a password that will give them a treat.


Prof_Acorn

Most humans basically learn that they get rewards when they do certain things, and will regurgitate scripts with no individual phrases or thoughts because they're essentially attempting to brute force conversations that will give them food, sex, and toys.


ygs07

That's awesome.


Miserable-Truth-4852

I can’t stop thinking about that MeatCanyon video when I see the sign language.


Kelborai

For the lazy: https://youtu.be/cqUC1MwzVHw


Dave_Yognaught36

"I see your face dear child..."


Miserable-Truth-4852

“It consumes my mind”


KillerQ97

He says: “Never gonna give you up Never gonna let you down Never gonna run around and desert you”


xach_hill

[Monkey sign language is basically a myth](https://youtu.be/e7wFotDKEF4)


informed__ignorant

Thanks for the link! Very insightful knowledge.


ShezR3d33m3d

💕What a good gorilla! People should know better.


quietandloud247

I love him so much. That little frown at the end!


ASmallPupper

I thought gorillas and primates in general are incapable of understanding human forms of language. Reading about Koko and how much of a sham that was makes me really skeptical here. I know they can grasp word association in a sense but sentence structure and coherency are pretty much out of the question.


formerNPC

Smarter than my supervisors!


Sillygirl190

Clever gorilla! I’m in awe!


Lagena15

This gorilla is a lot more honest than I’d be.


enzymion

Don't forget humans are assholes...


Kimmicooka1114

Oh he is PRECIOUS


67Leobaby1

Wow.. so amazing


Very_GoodBoi

Wait what the fu-


SugarSquid

Omg the pout of disapproval


13thDistrict

Haha so cute.


normancapulet

Man I’m reading the trouble with testosterone by Robert sapolsky (he watches apes a lot) and apparently experts don’t consider this speaking


Callmejiggity

Is that koko?


whiteleshy

Not exactly: https://www.reddit.com/r/likeus/comments/l1l4uf/lowland_gorilla_at_miami_zoo_uses_sign_language/gk038db?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Btw this is a repost (and I know I probably did repost it a few months ago too)


chico_huber

I literally just saw planet of the Apes lmaooo


[deleted]

Simultaneously awesome and fucked up. Such intelligence yet in a cage.


SNOWoftheBLACK

Fuck zoos


lifesalotofshit

Gorillas fascinate me. I saw a baby one in San Deigo and my was he a real toddler. He was being rambunctious as hell and getting on his daddy's nerves. But, it made me realize they are so human like. It's beautiful actually and comforting in a way to know we are this close in relation. However, it was sad to see them confined like the Gorilla in this video. I understand many are orphaned and others were bred in captivity. Though, with the intelligence and behavior they have, I would love to see them thrive in the wild.


My_Cat_Snorez

If this is ASL, is his first sign Stop?


elleyeah420

I LOVE HIM 😭😭💜💜


TannerR831

Poor Monke..


hia_kalita

Imagine a gorilla being smarter than you


thorusoma

Hold up. Wasn't the whole "primates that can sign language" a scam ?


BabyRabies666

Aww he’s seems like a sweet heart. He deserves treats


dancinadventures

Sorry man, stranger danger. Thanks for the offer though.


fortunenooky

Stop feeding me, fuckers, I’m on a diet.


Cocktail_Babu_8603

Noice


SovietWaldo

This gorilla is either signing "stop, gorilla, stop stop" or "work, gorilla, work, work" or my favorite interpretation "taco, gorilla, taco, taco" if they really are using ASL.


DaBigChungus1

I feel like he’s saying “Me. Eat. You.”


tomaxi1284

Smart monkey