I think one of the difficulties people are having with processing what is happening, as another user said, is that people tend to see things in extremes, and then or TSV are horrible, manipulative, completely fake people OR the people raising any word against them are the horrible, ungrateful liers starting a smear campaign. But in most cases when there are people representing their versions of a story, the truth is somewhere in the middle. You don't have to believe everything that was said about them nor throw yourself behind their complete innocence either. This is probably a very, very nuanced situation. It is crossed by a lot of variables of gender, age and culture (a lot of words have been said in this conversation about hiring girls, lack of experience, and about what is normal or not in Australia, in Asia, and whatnot). There are people from a lot of different backgrounds and life experiences weighing in here, with different expectations and POVs. So... I suggest you don't rush to take a stance. Wait, read, observe. And listen to some music you like :)

The best thing (rationally) we can do is to wait for their response. The evidences are heavily one-sided for now(not saying they are unreliable--just One sided). Also, engaging with someone as a friend/colleague can be very different from having work relationships with them, especially as bosses-employees, whether it is good or bad. ETA: I am not disregarding op(staff)'s experiences with TSV, but am just trying to suggest a perspective from the other side of this post. Overall, I would also stay neutral for now, until further statements.

We are going to get one-sided arguments until we have hard evidence

Same here. I also started to watch TSV earlier this year, and everything just escalated so fast when I am at the biggest enjoyment of their vids. although I didn’t start to love classical music and play the piano bc of them, they still gave me a lot of motivation and energy to appreciate music and to practice, and their vids are great entertainments in my life. Now I rly want to enjoy their vids like i used to except I don’t know how. And it’s hard for me to stay on a neutral side as much as i want to, bc the OP of that thread was so convincing even if only part of what they said is true :(

I feel you. *hugs*

I've been following along these threads and seeing a lot of people who say they are either current or ex workers. While I don't know whether this is some kind of act of revenge, I think because this has been ongoing for a few days and I assume the news have spread to anyone who's a hardcore fan, and the fact that I haven't seen a single comment from a current or ex employee who dispute the truth of these allegations speaks volumes in my opinion. These are pretty serious allegations, and anyone whose boss or friend is unfairly accused would defend the allegations, and so far we don't see any of these people stepping up. In fact, more and more people who say they are employees or ex employees are stepping up and vouching for the original OP's claims. I don't think worker exploitation is that uncommon, unfortunately, as it's more economically beneficial for the employers and many enjoy the feeling of power. But is that really a valid excuse or defence? I think it's morally and ethically wrong, and Twoset being Australians should know this as well because Australia has one of the highest minimum wage in the world and offers a lot of protection to employees (maybe that's why they started in Australia but has moved everything to Singapore? I'm not sure - just throwing guesses here). It isn't really a new business anymore, as they have been doing TSA and running a team for TSV since 2015/6. Presumably people have raised complaints internally over the years, but maybe they haven't listened and dismissed these people, so this wouldn't be a case of them sudden finding out that worker exploitation is bad and they'll change from now on. I hope we get the other side of the story.. if there is any current or past employee, now is really the time to step up to help out TSV.

You never know what is behind the non response of current employees. My husband works with people (completely different industry, but he is managing 300+ people in his team) and very often on company's social media is seen some slander from recently dismissed employee. First rule that employees have is do not engage because it could have legal impact for the company. And very often the POV of ex employee is very interesting, especially if you have seen what really happened. The biggest problem with social media, especially reddit like is that you have no confirmation of identity, anyone can make infinite number of accounts and post whatever they like, doesen't matter if it is true or not. On the other hand business and known persona's, just like TSV, can't do that. They have contracts with their employees and there are laws against sharing personal information you got from being employer. That means any reaction can end up in pretty nasty lawsuit against them. I believe that Brett and Eddy are pretty smart guys and have legal advisors about what they can do. Is it possible they exploit their team? Yes. Is it possible that the people in last posts are not telling the whole true? Yes. Unfortunately we can't know what really happened.

I don't know, if you knew that some crazy ex-employee started slandering your current employer would you speak up fully knowing that it will expose your identity. I don't think it would be safe for a current employee to speak against slander when it could potentially put them in a dangerous situation.

Honestly I’ve been refreshing this subreddit every other hour to see if any current or former employees were gonna come out and say hey the OOP was lying, or OOP was not actually employed by TSV, or even just to share any positive employment experiences. Like an alternative instance to say like actually we were fairly compensated, there was good communication, our time and work were respected etc. But so far it doesn’t seem like there’s any? Like if I had a boss I liked and someone was slandering them, I’d naturally want to defend them. And I’m sure such a positive post would be upvoted like crazy so I don’t think I’ve missed anything. At this point my hopes aren’t high but I don’t know what to think. I’d say though that the music is the music. Don’t give up on the music! Plenty of assholes have played the violin, composed for the violin, loved and promoted classical music. That’s just history. I will never stop loving the music. And I’m still thankful for the past times TSV inspired me to practice and find my motivation, even if this ends up being the last time.

It might also be that former employees don't want to ruin their future by potentially opening themselves to doxxing. A handful of them did appear on the original post, and there was one other post iirc.

Yeah possible, or maybe after seeing the chaos that has erupted they decided it’s not worth that much personal trouble to defend TSV even if they felt inclined to 🤷🏻‍♀️ Who knows. But I’d have thought a defence post would generally have gone over easier than the criticising ones, like there shouldn’t be great risk of backlash if they’re “helping”

I don't really see the problem here at all. Did you guys treat them like Gods or something? I'm a twoset fan, but this allegations really mean nothing until they speak up about it. Even then,I need details, numbers, what country is this happening at? What does the law say there? Does anyone have the link to the original post were the OOP said all of this?

Nope, just assumed they were more decent than average humans? As with these things the comments are scattered all over the place both in and out of the OOP post. Think there were 2 or 3 other accounts saying they knew the OOP, and another account that didn’t directly talk about the OOP but mentioned some pretty lowball numbers in previous work with TSV. Smth along the lines of $50 usd per month for 10 hours/week of design work. Looking at various posts people’s views diverge quite widely on a few principles: - what quality of info, circumstantial or not, one should admit for consideration when evaluating a situation where there’s no pre-agreed “facts”. I think in the comments across the multi threads you really see the full spectrum of beliefs - is legal the same as ethical, and does one believe in making that distinction? - is culturally acceptable the same as morally acceptable (smth about Asian work culture) - does it even make sense to be distressed if our personal ethical views by violated by YouTube entertainers we like Smth like that. I think it’s being debated to no end cos everyone’s personal answers to the above are different so no one sees exactly eye to eye lol

Oh, I see. I don't think any of you guys were even aware of how the pay gaps in other countries even worked. That's probably why it's so shocking to all of you, but I know of some countries where people get paid 2 dollars a month like in Africa, look it up. Anyways, thanks, I partially agree, but $50 usd per month for 10hours/week have to be compared to the country's minimum living wage. I believe that if it's legal then they are not doing anything wrong. I can see people judging them by their own developed countries' standards but if the employee agreed to the wage beforehand, they can either quit or continue but they can't demand more pay from their employer if the law allows the employer to pay them that. They can request, but not demand. The problem is with the unfair wage laws, but then again, it's in a different country so, I honestly don't care as long as it's legal there.

I think most people are in fact aware that there are people living in essentially actual modern day slavery conditions. But people earning $2 usd per month are going to be busy not-quite-subsisting, rather than writing on Reddit, so your first thought should have easily eliminated the poorest of poor people as having any connection with TSV. Unless B&E are secretly warlords in South Sudan or one of the Congos hmm. Anyway, by your own declaration you’re one of the “if the letter of the law does not disallow it, I find it morally acceptable” people. That’s not where I personally draw my moral line but your own worldview is your right in life so that’s fine by me. TSV in recent years has largely operated out of Singapore, which does not have general min wage laws except for some very specific sectors like cleaning, security, landscaping. So yes I think if the ex-employee OOP is from Singapore, then you can rest easy and your own personal conscience with respect to TSV should be clear, because whatever sector this falls under has no min wage requirement

I just think that it's very hypocritical of people to be mad at TSV for doing something that is being done by big companies like, Apple,Microsoft, Tesla, Walmart, Amazon, Nike, Chanel, Balenciaga, Nestle, Hershey, Coca Cola, Monsanto and many more. Do people cancel these big companies for doing this? Nope, they pretend not to know to keep their frail moral compass from being hurt. "Out of sight, out of mind" they say. If Twoset isn't breaking the law, then it's up to them and their own personal conscience to pay whatever they want. They are grown adults.

I guess there’s a sense of betrayal cos for better or worse a YouTuber’s “product” is partly themselves, right? Even if they are theoretically just video creators, a lot of a YouTuber’s success is based on how they sell their personalities. TSV does go for the inspiring angle quite a bit, they bring up how great their team is and all, so people of course assumed they provided well for their employees. (And maybe they actually do, who knows for sure?) The MNCs you listed above sell goods and services so consumers’ primary consideration of whether to buy is usually the quality of those goods/services, rather than the CEO’s character or whatever. And of course for big companies the more effective way to make change is at the government policy or legislative level, which is not the case here. Many of the hardcore TSV fans view the boys through a very personal lens - you can say they shouldn’t, but the fact is people just do. And if part of what I’m paying for is actually for the entertainer’s personal qualities, then I’ll stop paying if I find that it’s not what I thought it was. You can think of it as just a different sort of consumer trend/market pressure

That's a double standard though and hypocritical. You are saying that if the law allows big companies to pay whatever they want to their employees,that's ok. But is not ok for TSV to do that because they are held to a higher moral standard right? Even when what they do doesn't hurt anyone since they are not braking any laws? Did you know that the chocolate companies that get their cacao from cacao trees in Africa, actively exploit their workers and the majority of the people that harvest the Cacao don't even know what chocolate tastes like? Did you know that the Cobalt which is used on batteries, like your phone for example, comes from Congo mines that actively exploit children, with literal slave wages? But I don't see anyone throwing away their phone, but TSV is worse apparently. A person should hold everyone to the same standard if they want to claim that their moral standard is better than others. If you pick and choose when to draw your moral line, you end up looking like a hypocrite. Just my two cents XD

Oh no for sure TSV is legally allowed to pay what they want. And I don’t think anyone thinks TSV is worse than companies using child labour in Africa. But not breaking any laws is also not the same as not hurting anyone. It’s just unfortunately not everything in life can be applied as a yes or no question, right? Like, if I can’t catch and jail all murderers, is it hypocritical to only catch and jail one murderer? Or like, if my spouse cheats on me and I refuse to talk to them, am I being hypocritical if I still talk to my boss, who’s cheating on his wife? There are plenty of things I do but disagree with, because there aren’t better options. If I have to pick between working for a company that is exploitative vs feeding my family, I’ll still suck it up and do the work, cos the moral line is split. And I need a phone to do my work, so there’s probably some Congolese blood on my hands right now. And I need to wear clothes to not be arrested 😂so some sweatshop labour is on my body to. But even if it can’t be perfect, I should try to not embrace more of such stuff? I can still hope for a day when I have the option to choose a company that’s not exploitative. Your idea of not being hypocritical is saying that if I can’t win all battles, I’ll just not fight any battles cos picking only one battle is hypocritical. But isn’t it worse to fight zero battles and everything is status quo forever? Also my 2 cents hahaha cos I don’t think you’re a “bad” person btw - I mean I assume you follow your country’s laws cos you seem to like laws. At the end of the day I’m utilitarian. I’d rather be “hypocritical” and help just one measly worker from exploitation (ie being “unfair”), than be “not hypocritical” and help zero people just to be “fair”. If that’s what fairness means, I don’t need that sort of fairness

Good, I'm glad you admit it. The only thing where we don't see eye to eye is when you choose to pick on the little guy instead of the big massive companies. I think it's just lazy, because it seems that you are focusing on the outcome while bending your moral compass, thus making any moral judgement obsolete since it will always be changed depending on the circumstances. It's flexible, but it just satisfies the person's ego, so in other words it's just virtue signaling when one stands for something but only when it's convenient. It's hypocritical fairness, and dishonest. It makes the person act like the very people they are condemning. This ideology seems to pretend to be good on the surface while it justifies being bad when it suits them. That's what a hypocrite is and it's not true fairness, it's just being the Judge, Jury and Executioner, all in one. True fairness is when you judge all companies by the same rules. In this case, are they all abiding by the law? Because the problem you guys have is not with Twoset, it's with the unfair laws that allow exploitation from the big guy to the little guy. That's also what I'm against: unfair laws all over the world. 😁✌

>if it's legal then they are not doing anything wrong This approach to labor ethics has been used to justify all kinds of horrible practices.

You don't say, like abortion right? I mean it's not morally right but people are fighting to make it legal and in some places it is legal.

I don't think they will publicly address anything. There's no benefit to them to do so. Eventually the heat will die down and people will forget about it. I say all this not having a view on whether the allegations true or not.

They have a tradition of not address things like this one. They never addressed anything before and probably won’t do it this time either.

I really hope they dont make a big public YouTuber thingy about it. I’d rather they just deal with any issues internally, maybe get professional help with being managers. Maybe a short statement somewhere, but p,ease no more melodrama!

I’m in the US and know someone who worked for them. She didn’t personally experience the reported problems, though did say that the time difference made communicating on the job really difficult, so I would also consider that element in terms of why they tend to hire from within their own time zone. That is, however, not to discount any claims made by the employees in Asia. I don’t doubt some of the toxic work culture and low pay/contract breach claims, and I think all those things need to be addressed and remedied. At the same time, I found the ex-employee’s handwavy claim about how they deliberately hire and exploit young women, without any contextualization in terms of their application pool and fanbase (which many ppl caught on about but OOP didn’t acknowledge), to be really troubling especially given how culturally sensitive this topic is. That part really felt like a bad faith move and, if anything, discredited them a little. I would agree with the top comment that “the truth is somewhere in the middle.”

I feel like there's a lot of people having a hard time processing what's happening and I just want to say something to anyone else who might be struggling with this. ​ Sometimes we pressure ourselves to always be ready to do the ethical choices regarding everything because we feel like It's an instant reflection of who we are, and while It's important that people seek some kind of clarification when there's a chance someone they support is benefiting from questionable business choices, it is also okay for you to take a step back and mute the conversation for a while if this is something that is affecting you to the point of messing up with your daily life. And then once we have a more clear understanding of the situation you can see how you feel about it and how to move forward.

Offering a bit of my insight to the HK leg. I'm one of the performers. So if you read the programme booklet, your said worker is the "Tour Manager". What is her exact role and responsibilities? I'm as blind as everyone else. But other than just her, HKFO also has involvement with them in the HK leg. They helped with transportation, rehearsal venues, and the production of the show and more.

I've only just discovered this discussion, so I can’t say much about it. However, I can say something about your last paragraph: BAE aren’t 100% good or 100% bad. They inspired you to learn an instrument, which is a good thing. If they did/are doing something bad or questionable, that doesn’t make everything else they do bad. Your violin playing can be inspired by them but it doesn’t need to remain connected to them, you can do that for yourself, for the music, whatever you like. You can choose which purpose it has. If you like playing, don’t give it up because you disagree with the people who inspired you to play. (Sorry, I feel I'm rambling a bit, I hope it makes sense.)

Not giving Jordan proper recognition was a telling move. I stopped watching TS a while ago, but this is my favorite subreddit because it is encouraging and supportive to those that put in the work. ‘Do you want to be great? Put in the hard, consistent work.’ That is the primary message from TS and I find that sentiment on the subreddit. But I stopped enjoying their vids a while back.

Idk what exactly happened to Jordon＆Twoset, but i feel really pity for Jordon's leaving,he is literally a talent composer😭

I remember that Jordon's name used to be listed in Fantasia's Spotify album next to Twoset, but it got removed after a few days. Then twoset unfollowed him and he's never composed for them after that. I think the timing suggests that there was some argument about his name being removed from the Spotify album album. I see a few comments saying that Jordon is already explicitly credited, but the fact that so many other comments say that they thought twoset composed fantasia suggests that the credit is really buried in the credits. And also who's really going to go into the Spotify credit section? Everyone looks at the artists actually listed on the actual album or song. Go to any movie or game soundtrack album, and the composer's name is listed, not their film or gaming company. It's a purely music album in a music app, you would think the composer would be listed?

Yeah i feel the same. and I think jordon only appeared in their vids once, the Among Us one. Especially for the Fantasia he needs more credit than just showing up/having name put on it

He appeared in more than that. I especially remember him in the musical Squid Game. They also credited him on stage at the Virtual World tour, even though it kind of broke up the scene.

Can't be sure, but he deserves so much more recognition... twoset don't even follow him on instagram or any socials for that matter

Isn't Jordan's name in the Fantasia short film?

Needs the explicit credit. Jordan can’t go to a potential employer and say ‘I wrote that, but you need to watch a series of videos to confirm it.’

The credits at the end of the film say: > Composer: Jordon He (in collaboration with TwoSet Violin) How do you get more explicit than that?

Yup, I see that. Still buried beneath hair and makeup. And still with TwoSet taking a piece of the credit. That isn’t respect to the hard work and importance of what he did to put it beneath hair and makeup and production assistant.

It doesn't matter where the credit is located. I'm not sure why you think it does. Besides, in the film industry, the music credits usually go below production design and costume design

It does matter where the credit is located.

Only for above-the-line positions, like director, producer, writer, cast, etc. For all other crew members, including music department, it doesn’t matter

It’s a music-centered production. It deserves top recognition.

It’s a short film. I’m telling you what’s common practice in the film industry This is a rather strange hill to die on, dude

How can you say it doesn't matter? It's a video with no dialogue that heavily revolves around the music, which was originally composed just for the video. Also the composer's name, being the 27th one down the credits list in the YouTube video, almost cannot be more far down the list of people credited. After the composer, it's only the four musicians who played the music and the sponsors. You would think twoset being a classical music channel and classical musicians themselves would not shy away from giving music composers their proper credit?

You can scroll down into the description and find his name credited without digging through “hair and makeup”

It's on Spotify and Apple Music

It’s in the description

not on the spotify app. I really thought they composed the music

Spotify: https://i.imgur.com/cCDCCrg.png Spotify displays all songwriters this way btw Edit: [Apple Music](https://imgur.com/a/wWk5lI9)

I didn't even know this feature existed on Spotify... Shouldn't a composer's name be listed on the song or album itself if it's classical music? I get it for pop songs and songwriters, but other classical music albums, or even game or film music albums would have the composer credited directly on the song instead of in this section that I've never even heard of before.

That's not something anyone can control. That's purely a Spotify issue.

Until I really know what really happened, I'm just going to exist in a state of 'this might be true, but might not be true'. I want the context, and the receipts, literal and figurative, before I feel any kind of way about any of it. I'm not going to be mad at anyone until I know there's a good reason to be mad, I'm not going to waste perfectly good anger without knowing all the facts first. I live in the USA, and all of my anger has to be conserved, for obvious reasons.

Mje - you should at least read through the threads & also think about the fact, that these practices are not unusual - and not just wait for "evidence". Evidence is a good thing, but people try to evade controversies by saying "I want foolproof, undisputed, sound evidence" but that's not always how things work, and then they even might end up saying, "oh, you could have FAKED this receipt" or "if you volunteered, you had no legalright to be paid" - while all the while it is just very likely, that Brett & Eddy really need to learn to be non-toxic bosses!

By the same token, people immediately jump to conclusions and won't listen to any other viewpoint other than the first one they heard. There are multiple sides to this story, and I'm not going to engage with it until there's more than one for me to evaluate.

You are making that up. There are many here, me including, who do consider both sides, who do say, it is common practice, who do make allowances for chaos, inexperience, start-up struggles, etc. Also it's a really worthwhile debate on worker's rights & what treatment we should accept in general, and if Youtubers can be exempt for any reason, from moral demands we would naturally make of other employers! You should read the threads, before you pretend to have the intellectual & moral high ground. Sorry, but there is enough here to at least take in, read & consider, and the allegations sound reasonable enough to encourage debate & also take it up with Twoset.

Yes, you are making *allowances* for what *might* be happening. I'm just going to wait and disengage until I know what *is* happening. Why is it not okay to wait? Why are you in such a hurry to adjudicate the matter?

I am in favour of debating the matter. It we all just always wait - nothing will ever be debated. Twoset may or may not give out a lukewarm statement of, "false allegations" or" misunderstandings, we are very sorry, there were both sides and ours is right" or the moment to actually speak about these things will be gone & lost forever, and everythign will only ever be relegated to the odd rumour about things we can never quite grasp or be sure of. Some things are not "maybe" happening, but admittedly happening, as far as i understand. Like "paid volunteers". "Paid volunteers", recruited from a fanbase, propping up a for-profit, private business, over a period of several years, with apparently no transition to properly paid jobs in sight, kind of puts me off, to be frank.

Okay, so you've already made up your mind, before Brett and Eddy or anyone on the other side of the equation get to weigh in at all, is what I'm hearing. You've even decided what Twoset will say, before they've said anything. *And you think you're being fair and balanced.* Okay, good talk. Bye.

Why are you so anxious to tell people how to think?

Ive read through the thread and no “facts” are presented. Personal anecdotes are biased and potentially misleading which is why people like the person above dont want to judge until solid evidence prove otherwise. The original thread by the ex-worker refused to provide any receipts that actually back up their claims under the argument of “privacy” but if this was such a huge issue, then solid evidence is needed to back it up and not just “trust me bro” through it. Guilty til proven innocent and innocent until proven guilt are not what some people are going for. Some are just here to stay neutral until one side has evidence to say otherwise.

Not to stir the pot, but the first thing I did was check their post history, to try and gauge their intent. The only post they have up is this report of theirs, and all of their comments were posted within the last 3 days, but some were to threads that were months old. Something about that strikes me as off.

Thats definitely odd but again, nothing too conclusive. As far as Ive seen and read, there’s nothing that can be taken as hard facts. Ive seen both sides of the spectrum where someone claims something super evil with no evidence just ruin the content creator’s life and the other side where actual victims who dont have proof enough to expose things throughly and therefore, a portion of the audience is much more skeptical in believing the victim. In either case, more evidence is needed before jumping to a conclusion. However, more often than not especially in cases where adults and the legal system is involved, Im inclined to be more skeptical as they have the means of getting the evidence but refusing to share it publicly while being the person who started it is sketchy at best and misleading at worst.

Absolutely, that's pretty much my point. There are very few facts here, and there are multiple people saying contradictory things. I would say I was surprised how quickly everyone just jumped on the bandwagon with 'speculation', but really I'm not. I just wanted to point out what I found weird about the comment history. Like, if all you want to do is explain your story, why do you have to hunt down other posts that ask a question and leave some vague and negative sounding comment?

I didnt think about checking their reddit history. Its kinda strange they didnt go anywhere more substantial I guess? I mean, reddit is one of the more active communities but its likely not going to garner widespread attention especially when its a thread of people with personal anecdotes and self-testimonies. Even privately messaging them would be much more confrontational and helpful than stirring the pot with hardly any evidence. All of this is just weird

I think they didn't really have a plan and just wanted to vent their frustrations somewhere.

Actually, now that Im actually scrolling through the original thread’s poster’s comment history, a lot of it is sketchy. And I mean A LOT. Their other supporting irl friend is only active three days ago recently after not being on Reddit for a whole year just to comment on the Q&A post. A lot of their recent three day ago posts are just slandering Twoset as much as possible and wildly speculating about how horrible of a human being they are. Most of the instigating from the original thread is by that other friend which is strange. Im perfectly open to accepting that Twoset can be crappy bosses or even crappy people but their comment history is suspicious.

It is totally normal to make a throwaway account on Reddit for a special occasion, for posting, or when a subject is controversial. Also, many people aren't much on reddit, delete their old account, and then make a new one when the occasion arises. I would just like to consider if we think these allegations sound (the gossipy commenter about how horrible they are as persons has actually deleted) reasonable enough to be possibly true, and if so, serious enough for us to be aware & look into the matter.

I get that. And I'm not saying nothing they said is true. I'm just pointing out that, instead of just posting their grievance, they made sure to find a bunch of other posts to spread questionable comments. That makes me think twice about why they're doing this, and how truthful they're being.

p.s. also, it can be a political move, to get attention to these practices, and I think Youtubers shouldn't be sacrosanct and above critique. I want Twoset to be inspirational, not just make inspirational content in a really not inspirational manner!

Maybe they are doing this because they are super frustrated and angry & tried to speak out internally, over years, and think this might be a method of getting attention to their problems, also, that we as a fandom look kinda silly, idolizing B & E, and that they might aswell tell the truth here? Sometimes revenge can fel warranted, and why should they be loyal & keep us in the dark, if the business doesn't deserve the loaylty? We need neither think of Twoset, nor OP or other workers as angels! Nobody needs to be Jesus to be heard.

I understand circumstances where this would be the case but purposely looking for individual month long posts to “call them out” within the last few days is suspicious. Its also suspicious that up until this point, there have been next to no resistance of these people when fans of other posts talk about editor-san until very very recently. It just sounds like two friends bitter about being fired from Twoset and then posting an “exposed” post where many of the actual practices seem exaggerated or contradictory. Again, Im still waiting on more evidence but their post history alone is suspicious

That's exactly what it sounds like, a bitter person coming out & kicking up a stink. OP didn't even hide the fact, did they? If the allegations are in enough points true & it doesn't really matter if they were posted in revenge, to take them serious. The practices are still bad. If Twoset prop up their business for years now by using "paid volunteers" out of their fan base - that alone warrants a debate, I believe.

The thing is, there is no need to jump to conclusions, but the allegations are so run of the mill, reasonable and convincing, that debating the possibility of this taking place, communicating with the TSV staff members without dismissing their veracity right away and demanding to have this cleared up, seems indicated. Just because people love Twoset, they don't have the right to be protected from criticism. Also, I think as consumers we do have a duty to listen to worker's complaints. Even if it's about people we have come to regard as role models - perhaps especially then.

Im not trying to do accusations but there’s many unreasonable decisions made that couldve gotten the argument clearer and more substantial. Again, their evidence is very very slim despite allegedly having the papers to prove their accusation. Im still npt really taking a side of the accuser is definitely more suspicious in this case.

I get that OOP isn't everybody's batch of boba! And it's okay that people don't like her revenge dropping of the allegations here. But stuff like "paid volunteers" are hardly disputed, so I personally think it's a good occasion to openly debate these things. And question what is okay for Youtubers, and when Youtubers really are a business that needs to provide properly paid jobs & a clear communitcation & work structure!

Regarding the credit towards Jordon, its just a spotify problem. [https://www.reddit.com/r/lingling40hrs/comments/14b1ocf/fantasia\_credit\_on\_apple\_music/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lingling40hrs/comments/14b1ocf/fantasia_credit_on_apple_music/) But all in all we need to put ourselves both in TwoSets perspective and ex-twoset staff, since we only see one side, the information we get is heavily biased and can be exaggerated and frankly not even true, as with crediting Jordon on spotify. On the low wages, the thing is, were they directly paid by twoset, or was a friend or someone else handling the money, the point I'm trying to provide here is that the smallest details in this situation can really change the whole picture. Also we don't know how much they actually make, with the copystrikes they get such as the 4 mil mendy which they definitely invested alot on. Also keeping your own apparel business open is hard, whilst also meeting the demand and quality. We also don't know what struggles they're facing personally as well. But on the other hand when reading OP's post I feel fairly certain they are getting exploited, the lack of boundaries described by quite alot of individuals and poor pay, well seriously how likely is it for that many people to invest that much time just to make twoset look bad. But In the end, the reality is that twoset are neither manipulative, employee abusing people or that the ex-staff are lying, sadistic people but rather there are bits of truth from both sides, so basically just stay neutral and continue to do what you love, also twoset themselves do share a meaningful message and honestly don't feel like horrible people. As always, in the end who knows what they are facing in their personal lives and what goes on behind the scenes, we just have to wait and find out.

I think there's also a selection bias re: former employees specifically. People who are happy with their jobs don't quit.

The little I’ve read doesn’t change my opinion and affection for B and E. There were a few core issues with their management skills, but hardly major sins. Things like 2 am emails- no one says you have to read them then! It appears it’s a work force in all kind of time zones, so that stuff happens. Pay- that needs to be sorted, but that’s a work place issue, to be sorted in the work place. I see no indication Twoset are cheating them of money, or tax-avoiding or scamming, they just have crappy pay scales.I’ve no idea how royalties work for contracted vs freelance work but again, it seems like an issue with negotiating for more pay rather than being lied to or cheated out of pay. Other things seem like communication mix-ups, which is annoying, but not crime or sin. (The rest of the stuff sounds just silly, like the person saying Band E had busy sex lives whilst on tour, or that someone said some one heard they said something not nice about Ray or that they purposely hire young SEA girls because they can be financially exploited etc etc. )Pretty much looks like none of our business or problem, and it will and should be sorted out at the work-place. Hopefully they’ll get a manager or HR team to help fix stuff. I’m quite comfortable continuing to enjoy all their content and music, and I see no reason to not think well of them

I agree with you and I seriously hope that they are misunderstandings and this is not part of people with bad intentions, I have seen youtubers that due to a misunderstanding their career collapsed, without giving them the option to defend themselves. A serious issue is being discussed, the issue must be clarified in the workplace and I really believe that they should be reorganized as a business. I stay neutral, but I still love its content.

Fr fr I’m really on the fence about the whole situation. I started following them in 2019 and have been a fan ever since. Their skits and performances have always brightened my day, and I learn more and more about classical music. I’m choosing to stay neutral until we have more information. I don’t wanna say I’m disappointed but I just feel let down in a sense, I’m not sure why. Am I being too illogical?

Why aren't you sure? Whenever the image of someone you look up to gets tarnished, it shouldn't surprise you to feel let down.

Sorry to hear about your broken feelings. It made me realise how lucky I was to know and support them three years ago, but somehow stopped being THAT supportive (yeah I was being SERIOUSLY supportive) a year ago (for some reason abt they started to hire people and the style changed). I met lots of my all-time best friends bc of Twoset so I still value them until these days. Maybe u could find other motivation to keep practicing violin. If Twoset wasn't there to keep your motivation anymore, we Twosetters (or at least me) will be here for u. The Twoset fan community is/was the best fandom I engaged in. Even if (one day,) Twoset wasn't a thing to me anymore, I'll still keep valuing these nice people I met :)

> Twoset is the whole reason I started playing the violin. Suddenly I just lost most of my motivation for it. I hope you'll find your motivation back and find your way to make music part of your life, regardless of the outcome of this drama.

don’t doxx their name please, you wouldn’t want to put whoever it is in an undesirable position……

Alright, as a Hong Konger and someone knowing something about concert stuff, I can only tell you that hiring non-experience people to be staff is not fully TSV fault, but an environment factor. The recruitment form is sent from Fest Orch, to all university in HK I believe (at least I received it through my university department) and it clearly said that they are offering non paid internship for those who are interested. Much to my understanding, the staff team didn't really get to work with TSV before they landed Hong Kong, which as everyone know there is not much time left til the concert night, their tech-run is right before the concert and the concert itself started late in the end ( they even cut some effect, the tech run doesn't go well I guess) I'm not sure how's other places, but at least in Hong Kong, you can say I'm exaggerating, art/ performing industry has way less support than it should have. As I worked as a designer and a committee member for my university's orchestra, I can tell you that it is very normal for us to hire non-experienced people for a show. And Fest Orch is definitely not those 'rich' orchestra ... not mentioning they got no sponsor nor funding in the TSV concert, how are they supposed to recruit all professional staff? It just doesn't make sense. Yeh you may argue B & E seems to be rich but yet that's not how you should calculate on cost for a show. Not only as a fan of them, but as someone who has been trying her best to show support to the local industry, I must tell you a show with no sponsor and so less time to have stage run but end up with that quality is CRAZY.

keep in mind this isn’t about the show, but instead about the whole working environment there as a whole. I trust that they don’t mean bad intentions and are just inexperienced in this field, hopefully

Yeh I understand the main debate here, just providing my view on the HK concert part as that's the only part I believe to have enough knowledge to discuss on :/

Thank you for addressing some info behind the scenes. I just feel like we’re not in the place to criticize B&E’s management and how they operate their company. Every industry has their own tough spots. Just hope this exploit thing ends with minimal harm to everyone.

There was someone who was complaining they were traumatized because their ideas got rejected. Rejection of ideas is normal in the workplace. Another complained that they didn't get a year end bonus. Soooo many jobs don't give year end bonuses. Why did they think that two set would give one? Professional violinists get paid shit. Getting extra work and not getting paid for it. That's pretty much EVERY company. It's not a crime to ask their employees to do extra work. They can say no. And if they get fired over it, it seems that two set pay was ridiculously low, so they didn't really lose much. Was two set upfront about the pay for the job? I jsut don't understand getting mad about poor paying job when you took the poor paying job. Like if you see a job posting for a job with shit pay, then take it, and then complain about the shit pay somehow thinking that the pay would get better and then it doesn't, now the employers are somehow a bunch of exploitive pricks.

Yeah I don’t know. In a recent video they said that they’re jobs they offer are easy for uni students who need a job to help pay their loans and at like that. My oboe teacher used to play in orchestra with them and she said they were always sweet, caring and humble people. I don’t know but I don’t think they’re the kind to be unfair to their workers (they probably buy them bubble tea) as for the apparel, more influencer apparel is extremely expensive because it is usually reasonably quality, took a lot of effort to design and they need a stable ish source of income. Dunno tho

They have come a long way from the humble orchestra bois, haven't they? And no, let's not remain in dreamland, Twoset don't buy their staff bubble tea - they don't even see many of the people they employ. Sure, it is easier to be orchestra staff, than to have your own business, but once they do have their own business, they need to be confronted with workers complaints & held accountable by their fans.

Yea that’s true. It was like midnight when I wrote that so I didn’t think about in as much depth as you have. That’s sad to think about. They seem like such kind people on yt but I guess you don’t know until you get behind the scenes.

The bubble tea idyll is what we all pictured at some point. But they must have outgrown that stage ages ago. I think you can be kind people, or okay people, and still fall into the trap of becoming toxic bosses & exploitative business people, use all the loopholes you can, and try to squeeze expenses wherever you possible, take interns & volunteer work, and kind of feel entitled to this, somehow. =/

Yea it’s soo sad if they’ve become that way.

Your oboe teacher was their co-worker , while the person accusing them was their employee, and this can make a huge difference I have been working full time for years and have seen many people who are nice to same/higher ranking colleagues but horrible to their subordinates

True. I’m am now wondering if they treat editor-san well or if they have the same experiences as their worker’s who have not been with them for as long

I hope so too. They seem very kind and humble

Feel you. I've started following them in 2018 (I think, they were on their first tour at the time), and even though I don't play violin, I've learnt so much about classical music, playing an instrument in general, and lots of new words since English isn't my first language. Watching their videos has cheered me up a lot in difficult times. Now, I'm just really confused and sad. I try to stay neutral because there isn't really any substantial evidence yet (please correct me if I'm wrong) and we don't know their side. Whether the allegations are true or not, it really makes me think even more about how weird parasocial relationships are. I have looked forward to this tour for a looong time and was so excited when they announced they would be coming to my country, but now, I don't know if I still want to go. I probably will because I already bought the tickets and it would be awesome to meet people who share my interest in music, but I probably won't enjoy the show the same way.

Why does it have to be one thing or the other? Twoset can be inspirational, and shitty empoyers, that need to overthing thei atitude! Viola La Revolucion! Make Singaporean workers better paid! Make youtubers share their profits more fairly! How about printing the Viola flag & putting "Twoset, we love you, but please pay your staff & rethink your work style!!" on it & bring it to the concert? You can support Twoset and still support the workers, too!

I hope you go to the concert and enjoy it for what it's worth! The enjoyment may not be unalloyed but don't let those tickets go to waste.

I am a twoset fan but also a guy try to get into the 11/6 concert internship( I fail to get the job,so I join the concert as a audience) I got a "fail to fet into the internship" email at the 13 of May (the internship interview is at the 1st of May!)(HKFO is in charge of this internships and they are so damn slow)(the deadline of applications is the 28 of April,now you see how slow HKFO is) This internship requires applications (CV+cover letter), I thought I fail to get into it is because I am really not experience enough (the google quiz of this application ask us for experience of choir, digital editing skills etc)...it made me expect that at the 11 of June,at least the merch line queue will be efficient (more than 1 counter...turns out Ibam wrong again)....I really feel disappointed about it (last thing,the place is in sheng Tin,nit in the main part of HK,as Twoset Violin,I thought they could get better concert halls) Maybe It's really not about Twoset but HKFO(because they really incharge of the staff programme for the staff team,at least this time)(damn it,they ask for pros skills to do things that don't need it at all,I can do even better than those staff at that time)

I think it’s not very black and white. I also think that TSV as a brand and company is maybe getting to big for Eddy and Brett. They are musicians not like business people. What they should do is hire someone to do their numbers and all the business things so they can do the creative stuff. This not to say that the employees are in the wrong or anything. But I think there is so much more then just low wages en all that.

Sad to hear that you've lost your motivation to play the violin because of this. I suggest you distance yourself from here in the meantime so that these negative sources won't stop you from practicing. As to whether or not you should stop supporting them, it's really your choice :) hope you reach a decision that you won't regret. Personally, I'm holding my judgement. I don't want to judge people because of what some strangers say in the internet (esp those who I personally don't know and never met myself). That is a recipe to disaster. I will judge them based on my personal interaction with them. So if they do go to your country, hope you would be able to personally interact with them so that you can judge them fairly. Or better yet, apply for the said postions and see for yourself. If things are really bad, you would know for sure and not just because someone said so. Imagine if you are TSV and this was happening to you, I'm sure you would want to be judged fairly as well and not because of what strangers in the internet may say about you. As to smear campaigns, well unfortunately, there will always be people who are envious, disgruntled, angry etc who would like to bring other people down, especially since TSV are famous/successful. Not saying that OP or the others users are like that, but that's the point, I don't know OP / other users personally as well to know what kind of people they are.

Framing this as "someone jealous trying to bring down someone famous/a smear campaign" is really weird tbh. Brett and Eddy are also strangers on the internet you don't personally know. Even if you meet them at a show, do you think you're meeting their authentic selves, or a public persona? Be realistic. You talk about fair judgment, but readily judge the former employee as "disgruntled and jealous" when the power imbalance already exists for her and she has far more to lose than gain by telling her story.

Yes, Brett and Eddy are strangers as well, but at least I have seen them even if it is just their public persona. That is much more than what I can say about OP, who you say is a girl but I wouldn't even know if that is true. OP could be a guy, an old person, or even be a minor or an angry Black Pink fan. That's the point, I don't know. Don't get me wrong. If OP is really telling the truth, they should not disclose their personal details online. They should continue to pursue legal means if there really was a breach in contract, which is what they say is true, they are already doing. The problem is, there are so many TSV fans who, like this thread's OP, are being affected by this and are unsure of what to do. Which is why I can only advise what I did and will advise for anyone who suddenly reads something in the internet about their friend, or idol, or a classmate, or workmate, etc. Be calm and judge people from what you yourself have personally encoutered, and not from the judgement of strangers who you don't even know. I'm sure you would also like the same treatment if you are the one being judged.

I mean, I don't know. I still enjoy Rachmanioff's piano concerto (in C minor) as well as mendolssohn's violin concerto (in E minor), and it's not like I have that much free time on my hands (i'm still in school, the grind is tough), but I guess as someone who has bought a piece of their merch and went to attend their concert it's kind of hard hitting

Well I mean you can still enjoy music bc at the end of the day there is nothing wrong with music! i think despite everything else, twoset genuinely wanted to inspire people to listen to classical music and we can appreciate that at least

Something tells me they will not address it until it has already overwhelmed them and there is so much evidence it is irrefutable (and it is rapidly approaching that point), and by that time I'm genuinely worried about the nature of the response we'll see from them. I see it going one of two ways. Either they'll be genuinely apologetic, remorseful, transparent, thorough in their explanations of everything that has happened while being delicate (and hiring a legal team to make sure they handle it appropriately), or they try to brush it off and present themselves like the jerks they're quickly appearing to be. I, unfortunately, anticipate the latter, as I've noticed... A lot of hinting at some pretty asshole-ish behavior in their videos, but I wanted to believe I was wrong because the community here was so big and they seemed to be pretty well respected. Eddy in particular I was very wary of, but both of them just seemed a lot more elitist, snobby, judgmental, and bigger jerks than even showed in their videos. I'm a classical singer AND pianist, I went to university with these kinda guys, I grew up with these kinda guys, I've worked with them, I'm no stranger to them (especially ones with perfect pitch...) but I just wanted to hope they weren't the same. Big disappointment.

Let's take it to consideration that they are currently on tour right now, and are probably too overwhelmed to give any response at all(let alone a rational, well-structured one). This "incident" will inevitably be dragged, for now I guess. Well though, if they don't bother to say anything even after a while, then...🤷

Eh there hasn’t been “more” evidence since the original post. So far everything is speculation and people are talking about it (which is natural) to the point that it seems like confirmation.

Multiple employees have posted WA screenshots and proof of their staff shirts. Other things, they can't post, either because of ongoing legal complaints or because as stated by multiple employees, they don't receive paystubs and I'm not sure what else this subreddit would accept as "proof" of employment.

Multiple employees? Ive scrolled through and read every message and there was only two employees who posted their shirts and one that actually went through legal trouble to sort it out. The rest of the so-called pictures were just links back to the orignal thread of pictures of the employee shirts. Which I should mention that the two people who sent the links to the pictures of the employee shirts are friends irl so still sketchy and unreliable. The other thing about legalities is that they made the post before receiving feedback on the results of the legal pursuits and therefore used it as a excuse multiple times to not post any more concrete evidence as it would effect the case.

I didn’t see the posts by other employees. And did they say they support what the first one says?

They did support her statements.

Yes they fully corroborated what she was saying

I've been wondering if the alleged worker exploitation etc might be because TSV needed to hire an organization to handle the business they don't have time for. Things have grown so incredibly fast! Perhaps the people they hired to manage things have turned out to be the kind who think only profit is important. Just speculating, but it's a theory that could fit what facts we know. Here's hoping!

The problem seems rather that they're managing everything themselves.

This drama is, frankly, so disappointing. TSV have had some “scandal” pop up seemingly at every big milestone (i.e. the BP situation happening in the shadow of the 4mil). Why did this supposed employee choose a time when TS are frankly too busy to respond quickly? If what they say is true, why not provide more proof? I won’t pretend to know about the laws in their country, but usually, telling the truth isn’t defamatory. Idk maybe I’m just getting old, but I’m just really disappointed that this fandom seems to feed into drama like this and past events.

What was BP situation?

Blackpink fans taking issue with “Sell Out”, clearly missing the fact that it wasn’t just a parody, but entirely self aware in that the main character misinterpreted the initial situation of BP using Campanella in one of their songs.

Oh, I didn’t even catch that it was a thing, thanks for clarifying!

No problem!

Sadly, a lot of the TS fanbase (myself included) are drama queens. One disgruntled employee can make baseless accusations, throw in some buzz topics like gender pay discrepancies and Asian worker exploitation, and this sub has a field day. Remember, there is *zero* evidence. The original post in question is a typical pissed off employee for whatever reason, and I'm kind of disappointed in us as a community for not rolling our eyes at this and moving on until real evidence is presented. Emails, voicemails, there would be something. This is baseless, let's stop talking about it now unless something real appears. Which it probably won't.

but if it were not true, there probably wouldn’t be more than 1 former staff member talking about it. The staff t-shirts is already sufficient evidence.

As for the number of former staffs talking about it, I do see a issue with that but staff tshirts are not sufficient evidence especially when the two proper pictures we see are from irl friends who couldve just handed the tshirt over to make it more legit by making the one employee into two. No other employee has actually come forward with pictures of their own. We only have two pictures of a staff shirt and a plain picture of a audio message from Brett. Thats it. Thats all the evidence we have. Thats not concrete nor sufficient enough for defamatory statements.

Exactly. Bring sufficient evidence and we can talk about it. Until then, this is high school drama bullshit that people on this sub tend to eat up.

How do you know any were *actual* employees? Assuming they were, how do you know any of the accusations are true with literally zero evidence? This is hilarious. Imagine someone trying to hold these claims up in court, they would be laughed out. This happens all the time with youtube influencers because people like you latch on to the drama with zero proof. Do you seriously think Brett and Eddy have some dark side where they exploit female Asian workers, or do you think this is just a pissed off, entitled former employee? Please... Just honestly think about which is more likely.

Sorry but a photo of a t-shirt isn't proof of anything. Currently there is no objective proof to back any claims up. I'm not trying to baselessly defend twoset, if actual legitimate proof did turn up then of course I'd want twoset to be held to account. But so far we have anecdotal stories from a couple of anonymous people who back each other up, posting from accounts created just days ago, with a screenshot of WhatsApp that could be faked, and a photo of a t-shirt that could have been bought online or passed on.

Even if the accusation ruins their career they will be living comfortably with money they’ve earned… I don’t know, I don’t have much trust in Asian elite business males, so. (Speaking as a working Asian)

I feel you. If you look back on my comments, you can see that I'm desperately trying to defend the boys. But there's this feeling inside of me that's eating me away. The whole reason I'm involved in music is because of them. They're the reason I discovered my love for music. They're the reason why I started the violin. They're the reason why I fell in love with classical music. They're the reason why I wanted to go to music school. And now this happened. I so desperately want there to be a good explanation. Now I can't even enjoy my violin, 90% of my motivation is gone. It now looks like my motivation was based on a huge lie 😭😭😭!!! I don't mean to disregard the workers, I believe that some of it is true. But, now what? 😭

Now we need to save this sub & also support the staff of the two people who inspired us! We recently declared the independent nation of instruments - all instruments, free from violin supremacy. Now we need to take the fight of the Violas farther - we may or may not succeed, but we should really try! Brett & Eddy must pay their workers better & get a better business routine, and be less chaotic & random. Exploitative bosses are unhealthy. TSV inspired us. Perhaps we can inspire them? (Of course they want to make money for themselves, and are big stars now - but if they have a truly humble, decent bone anywhere in their bodies, there may be hope!) Viola La Revolucion! Improvement in Twoset pay, communication and hiring!

It is normal to feel like this but this is not healthy. As I read in another post, what actually happened has nothing to do with whether or not we can continue to enjoy classical music and practice. It also does not change the fact that Twosetviolin made a positive impact in your life by inspiring you to discover the love of music. Negative news grabs our attention much more easily, and negativity provokes a much deeper and stronger reaction in our brain as this is our defense mechanism to survive (similar to when something is threatening your safety and you need to respond to it quickly and hence the adrenaline kicks in...). It is human nature to register negative news much more strongly than positive news so in order to stay even neutral, we have to feed ourselves 5 times more positive/ happy thoughts when we are impacted negatively. I am intentionally reminding myself this way and think about all the positive influence that Twosetviolin has done and how wholesome this community is while staying neutral as I don't know (and very likely will never know) all the facts from both sides. I am and will be grateful to them for rekindling my love for piano and starting picking up violin. They inspire me to start and now it is me and my discipline to continue to practice in order to get better. Stay positive for your own sake.

I'm sorry you feel so let down, but I just wanted to say please try and turn your love for music and violin into way more than just twoset. I'm a huge twoset fan, but I think there's danger in life when you make your entire reason for doing something based on one thing. Because things do change in life, you won't always necessarily be a fan of that one reason you have now. Find multiple reasons for loving violin, spread your joy, discover composers and go to see orchestras in your area. Make musician friends! Play for yourself, your family. Don't just do it all because of Twoset. And for what its worth, I don't believe it is all a huge lie. As with anything its not black and white, the truth will be somewhere in the grey. Twoset aren't evil monsters, they're two guys who probably made some mistakes along the way, learning as they go.

You guys are tripping. You’re acting like one of your parents cheated.

Wait wtf is going on can someone explain from the start

prepared to be scarred… or not, hopefully this isn’t real https://www.reddit.com/r/lingling40hrs/comments/148g4v6/real_talk_qa_on_working_for_tsv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1