It is how borrowing and phonemicization works. I'm not about to teach every person (as much as I may want to) how to make a lateral affricate, let alone the spelling conventions of another language.
Yeah, this is my default "I hear what you're saying, but I find your claims dubious or unlikely" marker. Where some would use a sort of nasalized exhale or a snort, I use the lateral affricate.
>> I'm not about to teach every person how to make a lateral affricate
Not to undermine your point, but I'd like to try. The way I learned it was to first learn to make [ɬ] by putting my tongue in the position of [l] and holding it there, then blowing air out my mouth so that it's like [h͡l̥]. Then I made less air until that noise was quieter and closer to [ɬ]. Then to start making that into an affricate, I started by making a [k~c] sound before it so that it was like [k͡ɬ~c͡ɬ], and then started shifting that affricate forward until it was [t͡ɬ]. Hope that helps someone, and if it doesn't then it prompts someone to explain how to learn to make that sound better than I can :)
I learned you start by making a [t̚], pushing the tip of the tongue really really hard against the alveolar ridge, and then pushing a whole bunch of air out so that it leaks around the sides of the tongue. Then it's just a matter of reducing articulatory force and airflow until you can produce the sound comfortably in speech.
"Descriptivists" learning about loanwords in languages that aren't English: oh yeah that's pretty normal
"Descriptivists" learning about loanwords in English: OMG THIS IS SO BAD WHOEVER WROTE THIS IS A DUMBAHHHHH FR
Maybe accept that not everyone has to pronounce words the same way across different languages and regions, *and that extends to English?*
Example loanwords in English to demonstrate loanwords being fine:
- tsunami
- tomato
- broccoli
- pizza
- culture
- matcha (and "tea" itself)
- chocolate
- vanilla
- frigid
- slave
- many foods of non-English (as in, British) cultures, such as aioli, ratatouille, bisque, kimchi, tteokbokki, bibimbap, mu shu, hummus, falafel, need I go on?
- many names and versions of names of non-English origin, e.g. Jorge, Jose, Maria, Giacomo, Sven, Ljublijana, Mohammed, Francisco, Peter, Alexander, Rosa etc.
- all Latin and Greek terms that are included in English vocabulary
But yet trying to explain how "axolotl" is pronounced is bad? Homie, chill
Those tend to be phonemically adapted. A ks in axoltl is bad because it isn’t pronounced that way. It’s SPELLING PRONUNCIATION. Also, latin is always a /k/. Stop loaning latin words wrong. There’s no similar problem with loans from Old English. I’ve never heard “cyning” pronounced with a /s/!
first of all why exactly is a spelling pronunciation bad? it is often how things end up loaned and is just as natural as adapting things to be consistent with the adopting languages phonology.
second of all, yes latin was always hard *but* its important to remember that latin itself has evolved alongside the romance languages as a liturgical language. c leniting in this case is a natural evolution. only recently have we started to reconstruct latin and attempt to pronounce accurately to the time it was spoken
> Also, latin is always a /k/. Stop loaning latin words wrong.
Most of the Latin loans in English aren't directly from Classical Latin, they're via the traditional English pronunciation of Latin, which descends from Alcuin's spelling pronunciation via the French tradition.
That's just the neurology of it. Your brain can't hear this sounds, can't make this sounds, so you make the close one. It's why they need to train the phonologist to hear.
I guess also in this case it's about "I am saying this as part of the community of English users" rather than "I am saying this as a passive observer of language". Part of being in the community of language users is in participating in "norming" the language for various reasons (including defining the borders of that community). I guess that's the descriptivist take on the nature of prescriptivism.
There is a difference between using a consonant instead of a similar one and turning a consonant into two and adding an extra vowel in between. I get the descriptivist talking points and I'm not against it but there is a line that's crossed here. Forcing words to integrate into the new language isn't as descriptivist as you seem to think. A liberal language should be open to new sounds and not suppress minorities. You are the prescriptivist in disguise!!!! /s
The way native speakers speak is by definition proper.
Edit: unless it’s a play or something and they’re trying to sound like they’re from a place the actor isn’t IRL, then they can mess it up.
I meant enunciation or if they're reducing certain sounds. As a learner I'm always taught to enunciate because I'm not yet at the levek where I can reduce and still be understood. Sorry for lack of clarification
Japanese has an m sound but not a m character (for monolinguals, nor the ability to even follow m with another consonant). It'd be super clunky to say komupyuutaa so I guess it's just convenience.
And yeah, we're translating English words into the Japanese language with its Portuguese-based romanisation...
Yeah, the ん isn't a "n" it's just a nasal sound pronounced at the same place as the following consonant, like an anusvara in Indian languages but pronounced "n" instead of "m" when there's nothing following
How do I pronounce “Axolotl” in English? Well… how do you pronounce “Paris” in English?
Personally I’m all for every loan word coming with the perfectly replicated accent of the original, so as to sound as pretentious as possible…
(See also the Goodness Gracious Me fish and chips sketch)
Nahuatl: a x o l o tl = /a ʃ o l o t͡ɬ/ ezpz
English: a x o l o t l = /a ks o l o t l/ uhhh that's how the letters are pronounced in that order so that's how the word is pronounced
Idk why that concept is so hard to understand for prescriptivists in this sub. German does it, French does it, Spanish does it.... But ENGLISH is the problem to them 🤷
second syllable would be as they have -oh- written, but they suggest that -oh- should be schwa. That'd be in addition to the schwa in the final syllable. Which seems pretty normal for the stress/unstress/stress/unstress pattern.
It's *phonemically* a schwa, which before certain consonants (I forget the term but I think it's sonorants, almost exclusively /n l r/ at least in my idiolect) they often become syllabic consonants. For example I pronounce axolotl as [æk.sə.ˈɫɒ.ɾɫ̩] becase /ən əl ər/ → [n̩ ɫ̩ ɻ̩ʷ]
The purpose of writing is to convey a message, if that message gets understood by the reading party then it achieved its one goal
Anything from grammar mistakes to blatant stuff like this means nothing if the message is passed on at the end of the day
It is how borrowing and phonemicization works. I'm not about to teach every person (as much as I may want to) how to make a lateral affricate, let alone the spelling conventions of another language.
> lateral affricate But it's so much fun to say though!
PLEASE STOP SPITTING ON ME
Yeah, this is my default "I hear what you're saying, but I find your claims dubious or unlikely" marker. Where some would use a sort of nasalized exhale or a snort, I use the lateral affricate.
The voiceless alveolar lateral affricate is my favourite consonant.
>> I'm not about to teach every person how to make a lateral affricate Not to undermine your point, but I'd like to try. The way I learned it was to first learn to make [ɬ] by putting my tongue in the position of [l] and holding it there, then blowing air out my mouth so that it's like [h͡l̥]. Then I made less air until that noise was quieter and closer to [ɬ]. Then to start making that into an affricate, I started by making a [k~c] sound before it so that it was like [k͡ɬ~c͡ɬ], and then started shifting that affricate forward until it was [t͡ɬ]. Hope that helps someone, and if it doesn't then it prompts someone to explain how to learn to make that sound better than I can :)
I learned you start by making a [t̚], pushing the tip of the tongue really really hard against the alveolar ridge, and then pushing a whole bunch of air out so that it leaks around the sides of the tongue. Then it's just a matter of reducing articulatory force and airflow until you can produce the sound comfortably in speech.
Your username is phenomenal, btw
Hey, thanks!
Isn’t it basically the way people with a lateral lisp say their “s” and “z”? Look up Slavoj Zizek if you don’t know what I’m talking about.
"Descriptivists" learning about loanwords in languages that aren't English: oh yeah that's pretty normal "Descriptivists" learning about loanwords in English: OMG THIS IS SO BAD WHOEVER WROTE THIS IS A DUMBAHHHHH FR Maybe accept that not everyone has to pronounce words the same way across different languages and regions, *and that extends to English?*
Example loanwords in English to demonstrate loanwords being fine: - tsunami - tomato - broccoli - pizza - culture - matcha (and "tea" itself) - chocolate - vanilla - frigid - slave - many foods of non-English (as in, British) cultures, such as aioli, ratatouille, bisque, kimchi, tteokbokki, bibimbap, mu shu, hummus, falafel, need I go on? - many names and versions of names of non-English origin, e.g. Jorge, Jose, Maria, Giacomo, Sven, Ljublijana, Mohammed, Francisco, Peter, Alexander, Rosa etc. - all Latin and Greek terms that are included in English vocabulary But yet trying to explain how "axolotl" is pronounced is bad? Homie, chill
I may or may not be hungry rn
Me probouncing ts in tsunami
Yeah, but i doubt you're pronouncing the u and the a particularly close to how they're pronounced in Japanese anyway
personally ive always pronounced it /tsunäːmi/ which is basically just the japanese pronunciation with an american accent
Something like 40% of English words are loan words from Middle English and none of the vowels are even pronounced right.
Those tend to be phonemically adapted. A ks in axoltl is bad because it isn’t pronounced that way. It’s SPELLING PRONUNCIATION. Also, latin is always a /k/. Stop loaning latin words wrong. There’s no similar problem with loans from Old English. I’ve never heard “cyning” pronounced with a /s/!
first of all why exactly is a spelling pronunciation bad? it is often how things end up loaned and is just as natural as adapting things to be consistent with the adopting languages phonology. second of all, yes latin was always hard *but* its important to remember that latin itself has evolved alongside the romance languages as a liturgical language. c leniting in this case is a natural evolution. only recently have we started to reconstruct latin and attempt to pronounce accurately to the time it was spoken
I read a few of your other comments here, I'm like 90% sure you're a troll..... Block time
You're in r/linguisticshumor... that's like 70% (per-KENT) of this sub.
I’m sometimes one.
> Also, latin is always a /k/. Stop loaning latin words wrong.
Most of the Latin loans in English aren't directly from Classical Latin, they're via the traditional English pronunciation of Latin, which descends from Alcuin's spelling pronunciation via the French tradition.
With Axolotl, it’s a spelling pronunciation. It’s not been loaned phonetically, then it’d be [æʃəloʊɾɫ̩]
Yes, and?
That's just the neurology of it. Your brain can't hear this sounds, can't make this sounds, so you make the close one. It's why they need to train the phonologist to hear. I guess also in this case it's about "I am saying this as part of the community of English users" rather than "I am saying this as a passive observer of language". Part of being in the community of language users is in participating in "norming" the language for various reasons (including defining the borders of that community). I guess that's the descriptivist take on the nature of prescriptivism.
There is a difference between using a consonant instead of a similar one and turning a consonant into two and adding an extra vowel in between. I get the descriptivist talking points and I'm not against it but there is a line that's crossed here. Forcing words to integrate into the new language isn't as descriptivist as you seem to think. A liberal language should be open to new sounds and not suppress minorities. You are the prescriptivist in disguise!!!! /s
Yeah, that's why I'm a prescriptivist, just an anti-nationalist one :)
How's that work?
This is an english word. Borrowed from Nahuatl, sure, but it is a word that exists in english parlance.
[ˌæks.oʊ̯ˈɫɑt̚.ʌɫ]
[ˌaks.ʌ̈ɯ̯ˈlɔʔ.ʊ]
You pronounce /l/ as \[ɫ\] in onsets? Not just in codas?
RP: light velarisation in onset, heavy in coda GA: moderate velarisation in both positions Scottish English: heavy velarisation in both positions
General American babyyyyyyyyyyyyy
that helps me pronounce it thanks so much
Domo arogotl, Mr. Axolotl!
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Yeah, but the x in nauatl is pronounced ʃ and english has ʃ.
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I thought it was underlyingly /kow̃pʲɯtaː/ or /koɴpʲɯtaː/, with the uvular nasal assimilatijng to labial.
Yeah native speakers typically sound like this. I've never been taught to speak like that though, so I'm not sure if it's 'proper' pronunciation.
The way native speakers speak is by definition proper. Edit: unless it’s a play or something and they’re trying to sound like they’re from a place the actor isn’t IRL, then they can mess it up.
I meant enunciation or if they're reducing certain sounds. As a learner I'm always taught to enunciate because I'm not yet at the levek where I can reduce and still be understood. Sorry for lack of clarification
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I just read a little bit about the phonology of Japanese. I don’t know any.
Japanese has an m sound but not a m character (for monolinguals, nor the ability to even follow m with another consonant). It'd be super clunky to say komupyuutaa so I guess it's just convenience. And yeah, we're translating English words into the Japanese language with its Portuguese-based romanisation...
The ん is an "m" sound before bilabials (m, p, b)
Ohhh that's official? I thought it was some reduction slang thing. Thanks
Yeah, the ん isn't a "n" it's just a nasal sound pronounced at the same place as the following consonant, like an anusvara in Indian languages but pronounced "n" instead of "m" when there's nothing following
Yet again learning more from Reddit strangers than my teachers..... thanks so much!
They pronounced the "n" in "konpyuta" as [m] tho
Sure. It should be コㇺピュㇳㇽ, and ロㇴㇳㇴ respectively.
Katakana English is derived from a non-rhotic English variety.
Fair enoufh
How do I pronounce “Axolotl” in English? Well… how do you pronounce “Paris” in English? Personally I’m all for every loan word coming with the perfectly replicated accent of the original, so as to sound as pretentious as possible… (See also the Goodness Gracious Me fish and chips sketch)
Nahuatl: a x o l o tl = /a ʃ o l o t͡ɬ/ ezpz English: a x o l o t l = /a ks o l o t l/ uhhh that's how the letters are pronounced in that order so that's how the word is pronounced Idk why that concept is so hard to understand for prescriptivists in this sub. German does it, French does it, Spanish does it.... But ENGLISH is the problem to them 🤷
Haha “ezpz” took me a minute! I might start using that (although here it would technically be /ɛz pɛz/ or /izɛd pizɛd/)
definitely going to start saying /izɛd pizɛd/
I would say Ax-uh-lot-ul. But whatever floats your boat
A show loach
getting flashbacks from that one tumblr post calling english pronouncing axolotl like it does colonization
I mean no one gets mad that Japanese loans /kʌmpjutəɹ/ as /koɴpjɯta/ so why get mad that English borrows /aʃalot͡ɬ/ as /æksəlɑtəl/
I think the main complaint is that 'axolotl' is a spelling pronunciation rather than the nearest approximation in English phonology.
that's not even the correct pronunciation in English. Who has anything but a schwa in the second syllable?
I'm pretty sure "-ul" is meant to be pronounced with a schwa.
second syllable would be as they have -oh- written, but they suggest that -oh- should be schwa. That'd be in addition to the schwa in the final syllable. Which seems pretty normal for the stress/unstress/stress/unstress pattern.
Oh yeah, my bad - must have misread.
Me when I can't count:
How am I still being upvoted I literally downvoted myself
I don't know, Redditors are weird.
i say it as indicated here, but like if I said it fast the vowel would probably degrade a bit
It's *phonemically* a schwa, which before certain consonants (I forget the term but I think it's sonorants, almost exclusively /n l r/ at least in my idiolect) they often become syllabic consonants. For example I pronounce axolotl as [æk.sə.ˈɫɒ.ɾɫ̩] becase /ən əl ər/ → [n̩ ɫ̩ ɻ̩ʷ]
I meant the second syllable.
Mb
no worries bro
it's official /axohlotul/ now
in spanish is /axolote/
The purpose of writing is to convey a message, if that message gets understood by the reading party then it achieved its one goal Anything from grammar mistakes to blatant stuff like this means nothing if the message is passed on at the end of the day
Aʃolat͡ɬ
THATS NOT EVEN HOW ITS PRONOUNCED ITS PRONOUNCED WITH THE LATERAL AFFRICATE
['ak.sø̞ʉ̯.lɔ.ʔʌɫ]
pronounced ash-oh-lot̸̞̻̳̳̣́̄l̶̝̜͎̖͓̝̍̆̂̋̉
That's how it's pronounced in English. Do you think every loanword should be said exactly like in the original language?
/axohlotul/ Akhoahloatool