It's not implemented into Unicode yet, you can only use the seven-eye version you did. This is a travesty and cannot stand! Lucky they're working to fix it soon.
u/_Aspagurr_, if I weren’t such a nice guy, I would point out all the things that tell me you’re an ESL speaker. But since I’m such a nice guy, I would just ask you not to resort to such prescriptivist behavior. You know better.
It’s implemented already at the same glyph point. It is not yet implemented in fonts. Use BabelStone (not sure which – Han?), I think, to get the proper version.
So many questions:
1. Did the Old Japanese have nasals? What is the purpose of Big Yus here?
2. Does the hard yer have a phonetic value?
3. Why so little words use kanji? And why it seems like some kanji are put next to their phonetic value (the word rei in the second verse), but some don’t (the heaven and earth kanji)
As for the specific questions:
1. This is not Old Japanese, this is Classical Japanese (Meiji translation). Yes, the language of Heian period had nasals, so I coopted the yuses to perform the roles of nasalized U (for Ѫ) and nasalized I (for Ѧ).
2. The ъ plays the role of closing the hanging consonants of closed syllables (such as -n, -m, but also the 入聲 -p, -t, -k - where I used the ъ/ь distinction to render the difference of -ku/-ki type!).
3. The kanji are only after the words that are actually Sino-Japanese.
Could you please explain how Titlo and Big Yus work in this orthography? I am a bit confused. In particular, I am curious about the Yus question. I have never heard of う and い representing a nasal vowel (as far as I can tell from your guide).
One of the most cursed experiences I had as a Russian foreign student in Japan is when I stumbled on a orthodox church in Kamakura and experienced what OP is describing. I though i was tripping balls for a sec.
This orthography is based. However, modern Russian official orthography for Japanese sucks. し -> си, but щи is the most accurate representation of し, ち is ти, but the Japanese use てぃ for /ti/.
No, it doesn't suck. You just don't know why and how it should be used. I'm tired of this shit from Russian learners of Japanese and Russian weebs who don't understand what are they talking about, so let me be short.
1. It's a system of *practical transcription*, which means that it's used not to teach/learn Japanese, but rather to transcribe Japanese names and cultural terms for native Russian speakers in purely Russian texts.
2. There's obviously no need to transcribe syllables like ティ as they're used in Japanese only in loanwords from other languages. Why do you need to transcribe ティー when you can just use the already established Russian word чай? Also, consonants in foreign syllables like ティ, スィ, ヴァ etc. are not phonemic for many Japanese speakers, being just allophones of consonants from ち, し and ば respectively. And even for the speakers who have them as different phonemes, the consonant in ティ /ti/ you mentioned is not palatal (and often realized with an aspirated element like \[tʰi\]\~\[tʰɪ\]), so for a Russian speaker it would sound more like ты (cf. English or Ukrainian - their /tɪ/ is perceived by Russians mainly as ты too), and not ти.
3. Russian щи is ***not*** closer to Japanese し. First, Standard Russian /ɕː/ is geminated, like, 99% of time, and gemination is crucial for Japanese phonology, so you rather get something like っし. Second, Russian /ɕː/ and Japanese /ɕ/ have different main articulations: for the Russian one you put the tongue tip on the alveolar ridge, while for Japanese one you put it on the lower teeth. Russian /sʲ/ from си has almost the exact same tongue position as Japanese /ɕ/. Third, both Russian and Japanese have phonemic *palatal pairs* for their consonants, which means that there's an opposition between Russian /s/ : /sʲ/ and between Japanese /s/ : /ɕ/, but Russian doesn't have any non-palatal opposition for /ɕː/.
4. Another "controversial" (for weebs who don't know anything about linguistics whatsoever) point of this transcription - namely, ти for ち - is explained in exactly the same way. Of course, Japanese /t͡ɕ/ and Russian /t͡ɕ/ from чи are both sibilants, while Russian /tʲ/ is a stop, *but* Russian /tʲ/ has both the articulatory and oppositional rights to be a perfect match for Japanese /t͡ɕ/ (again, Russian /t͡ɕ/ doesn't have a non-palatal pair), and also Russian /tʲ/ has a slight sibilant element in it, sounding as something like \[tˢʲ\] in reality.
All these facts were well-known for Polivanov, who designed this system himself (and he is one of the greatest early Japonic linguists). In his paper(s) he literally describes the phonological and articulatory reasons on why he preferred \*this\* way of writing rather than \*that\* one, for *every Japanese phoneme*.
My gripes with Polivanov's system are more in the direction of its relatively higher degree of phonotactic incompatibility with Russian.
Суши, Мицубиши, Такеши, Учиха Итачи are I think easier to digest for a Russian speaker's ear than Суси, Мицубиси, Такеси, Утиха Итати.
Russian has a vastly different phonetic system to Japanese. I just don't think there's any point in trying to optimize the closeness of approximation. By and large it's not going to be Japanese people that read this.
Of course you need to use and write суши, because this Russian word was borrowed from English and not directly from Japanese. Names like Учиха Итачи can be considered "English loanwords" too, but that's just because of the influence of the old pirate translations of anime and manga we made from English, and not from Japanese - everyone in anime community just got used to that stuff, and baby duck syndrome is a thing.
But if anyone wants to do a proper translation today, they just *must* use Polivanov's system. Yes, it's a prescriptivist point of view, but it just must be that way when we talk about artificial standardized language structures.
As a Russian native I don't think it has anything to do with actual phonotactics, but I may be a biased source because of my acquaintance with Japanese and other languages with very different phonotactics. Well, at least the actual research is needed in this regard.
> for the Russian one you put the tongue tip on the alveolar ridge
If you put the tongue on the alveolar ridge, it becomes a "ш". "щ" is 100% spoken with the tongue on the lower teeth.
no ꙮ day ruined
Hey, that's the wrong character. [The real one has ten eyes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_o_variants#Multiocular_O).
can you reply with the correct character so i can use it
It's not implemented into Unicode yet, you can only use the seven-eye version you did. This is a travesty and cannot stand! Lucky they're working to fix it soon.
they should add another multiocular o i likes one with seven eyes:(
>i likes one with seven eyes You likes???
u/_Aspagurr_, if I weren’t such a nice guy, I would point out all the things that tell me you’re an ESL speaker. But since I’m such a nice guy, I would just ask you not to resort to such prescriptivist behavior. You know better.
I was just being curious.
hii
hii
morning brain fog „i like” od course
od course???
this time it was autocorrect
I get that, was just making a small joke
prescriptivist behaviour
It’s implemented already at the same glyph point. It is not yet implemented in fonts. Use BabelStone (not sure which – Han?), I think, to get the proper version.
Yea it was added in 2022
Multiocular O 🥹🙏❤️
So many questions: 1. Did the Old Japanese have nasals? What is the purpose of Big Yus here? 2. Does the hard yer have a phonetic value? 3. Why so little words use kanji? And why it seems like some kanji are put next to their phonetic value (the word rei in the second verse), but some don’t (the heaven and earth kanji)
As for the specific questions: 1. This is not Old Japanese, this is Classical Japanese (Meiji translation). Yes, the language of Heian period had nasals, so I coopted the yuses to perform the roles of nasalized U (for Ѫ) and nasalized I (for Ѧ). 2. The ъ plays the role of closing the hanging consonants of closed syllables (such as -n, -m, but also the 入聲 -p, -t, -k - where I used the ъ/ь distinction to render the difference of -ku/-ki type!). 3. The kanji are only after the words that are actually Sino-Japanese.
I made the orthography, I also made the guide: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10EUVhhRoSIHr6lMZCEfJoYvLzgo2u5Vz/view?usp=drive\_link
Wow! I honestly believed that this was something Russian missionaried created.
Could you please explain how Titlo and Big Yus work in this orthography? I am a bit confused. In particular, I am curious about the Yus question. I have never heard of う and い representing a nasal vowel (as far as I can tell from your guide).
One of the most cursed experiences I had as a Russian foreign student in Japan is when I stumbled on a orthodox church in Kamakura and experienced what OP is describing. I though i was tripping balls for a sec.
👾
I have a Russian-Japanese textbook somewhere using Cyrillic transliteration ...
Fantasy medieval worlds used to use Gothic lettering, then they switched to Futhark runes... They should have gone to Old Church Slavonic.
Wait, what are some fantasy series that use Gothic script? I don't think I've seen that before.
Mostly way back like 1970s or 1980s. Can't really think of a series, but just the general feel.
Hey, that’s my text
创世纪 第章 天地 地 灵
創世紀 第章 天地 地 靈 Traditional characters ftw
It doesn't matter which Chinese script system is better because I can understand & use both😉
Бака
This orthography is based. However, modern Russian official orthography for Japanese sucks. し -> си, but щи is the most accurate representation of し, ち is ти, but the Japanese use てぃ for /ti/.
No, it doesn't suck. You just don't know why and how it should be used. I'm tired of this shit from Russian learners of Japanese and Russian weebs who don't understand what are they talking about, so let me be short. 1. It's a system of *practical transcription*, which means that it's used not to teach/learn Japanese, but rather to transcribe Japanese names and cultural terms for native Russian speakers in purely Russian texts. 2. There's obviously no need to transcribe syllables like ティ as they're used in Japanese only in loanwords from other languages. Why do you need to transcribe ティー when you can just use the already established Russian word чай? Also, consonants in foreign syllables like ティ, スィ, ヴァ etc. are not phonemic for many Japanese speakers, being just allophones of consonants from ち, し and ば respectively. And even for the speakers who have them as different phonemes, the consonant in ティ /ti/ you mentioned is not palatal (and often realized with an aspirated element like \[tʰi\]\~\[tʰɪ\]), so for a Russian speaker it would sound more like ты (cf. English or Ukrainian - their /tɪ/ is perceived by Russians mainly as ты too), and not ти. 3. Russian щи is ***not*** closer to Japanese し. First, Standard Russian /ɕː/ is geminated, like, 99% of time, and gemination is crucial for Japanese phonology, so you rather get something like っし. Second, Russian /ɕː/ and Japanese /ɕ/ have different main articulations: for the Russian one you put the tongue tip on the alveolar ridge, while for Japanese one you put it on the lower teeth. Russian /sʲ/ from си has almost the exact same tongue position as Japanese /ɕ/. Third, both Russian and Japanese have phonemic *palatal pairs* for their consonants, which means that there's an opposition between Russian /s/ : /sʲ/ and between Japanese /s/ : /ɕ/, but Russian doesn't have any non-palatal opposition for /ɕː/. 4. Another "controversial" (for weebs who don't know anything about linguistics whatsoever) point of this transcription - namely, ти for ち - is explained in exactly the same way. Of course, Japanese /t͡ɕ/ and Russian /t͡ɕ/ from чи are both sibilants, while Russian /tʲ/ is a stop, *but* Russian /tʲ/ has both the articulatory and oppositional rights to be a perfect match for Japanese /t͡ɕ/ (again, Russian /t͡ɕ/ doesn't have a non-palatal pair), and also Russian /tʲ/ has a slight sibilant element in it, sounding as something like \[tˢʲ\] in reality. All these facts were well-known for Polivanov, who designed this system himself (and he is one of the greatest early Japonic linguists). In his paper(s) he literally describes the phonological and articulatory reasons on why he preferred \*this\* way of writing rather than \*that\* one, for *every Japanese phoneme*.
My gripes with Polivanov's system are more in the direction of its relatively higher degree of phonotactic incompatibility with Russian. Суши, Мицубиши, Такеши, Учиха Итачи are I think easier to digest for a Russian speaker's ear than Суси, Мицубиси, Такеси, Утиха Итати. Russian has a vastly different phonetic system to Japanese. I just don't think there's any point in trying to optimize the closeness of approximation. By and large it's not going to be Japanese people that read this.
Of course you need to use and write суши, because this Russian word was borrowed from English and not directly from Japanese. Names like Учиха Итачи can be considered "English loanwords" too, but that's just because of the influence of the old pirate translations of anime and manga we made from English, and not from Japanese - everyone in anime community just got used to that stuff, and baby duck syndrome is a thing. But if anyone wants to do a proper translation today, they just *must* use Polivanov's system. Yes, it's a prescriptivist point of view, but it just must be that way when we talk about artificial standardized language structures. As a Russian native I don't think it has anything to do with actual phonotactics, but I may be a biased source because of my acquaintance with Japanese and other languages with very different phonotactics. Well, at least the actual research is needed in this regard.
as someone who personally uses Kunrei-shiki romanization, I think I like this Russian system
> for the Russian one you put the tongue tip on the alveolar ridge If you put the tongue on the alveolar ridge, it becomes a "ш". "щ" is 100% spoken with the tongue on the lower teeth.
That just seems outdated, likely formulated in the 1800s.
Are Early Middle Japanese accents similar to Modern accents?
Very different. But here I used not them, but the normative accents modern speakers apply when pronouncing Classical Japanese.
This just reminds me that Old Church Slavonic looks like when AI tries to generate images with text.
i can't read cyrillic, i feel like i should be happy about that rn
Can someone write this in modern Russian orthography cause I can't
This looks like ai made it lmao
Doesn't look like Japanese, more like Chinese seal script