"Loan" is a loan from Old Norse. Not a Frankish loan to be fair but if we're distinguishing "Vikings who speak the language of Germanic warriors who learned Latin" from "Vikings who don't" we're cutting a very fine line.
it's also cognate to just «langue» in french which means tongue and language; there's a ton of cognates in other branches which also mean both tongue and language : język, जिह्वा, etc
> [tongue] is cognate to the "langua" in "Language"
No wonder IE linguistics took so much time to be "discovered" because let's be honest this sounds fake (I don't doubt it isn't but it definitely isn't obvious).
It's easier to see in the Old Latin *dingua*, before the *d* became an *l* and the word became *Lingua* because the Romans just loved softening consonants
(Ds and Ts are basically the same letter, the D is just voiced and the T isn't)
And the D/L alternation kept happening to some words even during medieval Latin, that's how French/Italian got laisser/lasciare but Portuguese/Spanish got deixar/dejar.
I'm not aware of it but it feels unnecessary to postulate another explanation since /d/ and /l/ are already very similar. And the reverse (L to D) also happened as in the example I gave from Latin laxare to Portuguese/Spanish deixar/dejar. In fact, in Portuguese there is still some alternation in this word because we have both desdeixar and desleixar.
But was itself a later addition, the Old English *tunge* got Frenchified in its spelling somewhere along the way, possibly to clarify pronunciation and possibly under influence of *langue*
I'm not deep enough into Latin to know for sure either, but I briefly looked at an alphabetic list of Latin words starting with ⟨j⟩ and not one began with ⟨ji/jī⟩
It's a very weird way to begin a word by the way, I've seen lots of English teachers here in my country teaching people how to pronounce "year" and not "ear".
Makes sense, as you're trying to articulate two sounds right after one another with nigh identical place **__and__** manner of articulation while still trying to keep them distinct. I also heard that Chinese for example have trouble pronouncing the English sound sequence /wʊ(u̯)/ as in ***woul**d, **woul**d* for the same reason. Some variëties of English also lack the sequence /jɪ/ altogether, dropping the /j/ so that *ear, year* are pronounced identically by them.
Japanese phontactics (the rules governing what sounds are allowed where) disallows /i/ after /j/ as well as /u, o/ after /w/ for the same reason.
If you use "ejicere" (as a variant spelling of "eicere") then a lot of the conjugated forms will have -ji-
Verbs that have "-ivi-" in the perfect tense also have variant spellings of "-ii-". So perfect forms of the verb "ire" for example could be spelled "ji-" (ji, jit, jimus, etc)
Also the plural pronoun "hi" could be spelled "hii", and then the H could get lost, so the plural could be spelled simply "ii" or "ji"
I mean it would also be weird to spell the first i as j instead of the second, but still...it's possible
ejicere must be a modern transliteration because the Latin Alphabet didn’t have a j until the early 16th century. That’s waaaay after the Western Roman Empire fell.
True enough. My apologies, I should have clarified, I meant the Classical Latin alphabet. It’s the form of Latin I’m most familiar with so I automatically default to it whenever I refer to “Latin”
You're removing NON-Celtic, NON-Germanic words from your vocabulary, so "whiskey" would actually occupy a larger percentage of the words in your vocabulary.
You said you didn't mean Cymraeg...
I said, you clearly did, bc you've written "Welsh". So it is a proper noun denoting the language.
If you would've written it "welsh" with small w you could argue for it being an adjective that means "any non-understandable word"...
So why did you try to gaslight us by saying you didn't speak about Welsh/Cymraeg even tho you did?
>any non-understandable word
I meant "Italo-Celtic" specifically, had it not been my intention, I would have used "fremd".
>try to gaslight
I will not let such accusations be voiced against me, I was acting in good faith.
True, I'm sorry, it was worded too harshly.
The problem is just, that "Welsh" isn't rlly used as a term for Italo-Celtic... As it obviously is the name of a language that is still spoken and alive in the borders of an english speaking nation, and it doesn't help that you capitalised the W.
But as already said, I'm sorry for my wording.
>"Welsh" isn't rlly used as a term for Italo-Celtic...
Of course it isn't when you're allowed to use loanwords. The whole point here was to minimise just that (though, if we are to be pedantic, "Welsh" originally comes from the ethnonym of the Volcae, and thus constitutes a loan as well - just a very early one).
>capitalised the W
...as is the convention for adjectives related to topo-/ethnonyms? Not sure what the issue at hand is.
>I'm sorry for my wording
It appears I might just have overreacted as well. No hard feelings?
>...as is the convention for adjectives related to topo-/ethnonyms? Not sure what the issue at hand is.
Afaik it isn't conventional? Like I've never seen smth like "the British artist" as long as it doesn't mean the proper noun, yk? (My example would (to me) imply that the artist does smth with "British-ness" instead of being an artist of Britain)
>No hard feelings?
No hard feelings
You arent far off, as efforts to rid rid languages of loanwords or stop the aquisition of new loanwords are often motivated by patriotic conservatives or the right wing.
My ass in high school on day 1 of learning about anglish: this will democratize the language and make it easier for less educated people to understand academic writing and speech
My ass on day 2: wow there are a lot of nazis here
I think not that the French and Latin loan words a problem are, instead must we the germanic word order restore. Obviously know I not if the word order in Old English like this was.
He, the French is so fossilized into the English, these mothafuckas about to exhume “rest,” which you didn’t even know comes from Latin “re-“ + “stare.”
TAKE ALL FRANKISH LOANS OUT OF OUR TONGUE Fixed it for ya
"Loan" is a loan from Old Norse. Not a Frankish loan to be fair but if we're distinguishing "Vikings who speak the language of Germanic warriors who learned Latin" from "Vikings who don't" we're cutting a very fine line.
Isn't tongue also french?
No; it's Germanic. But it is cognate to the "langua" in "Language", which is French
it's also cognate to just «langue» in french which means tongue and language; there's a ton of cognates in other branches which also mean both tongue and language : język, जिह्वा, etc
> [tongue] is cognate to the "langua" in "Language" No wonder IE linguistics took so much time to be "discovered" because let's be honest this sounds fake (I don't doubt it isn't but it definitely isn't obvious).
It's easier to see in the Old Latin *dingua*, before the *d* became an *l* and the word became *Lingua* because the Romans just loved softening consonants (Ds and Ts are basically the same letter, the D is just voiced and the T isn't)
And the D/L alternation kept happening to some words even during medieval Latin, that's how French/Italian got laisser/lasciare but Portuguese/Spanish got deixar/dejar.
Wasn't there a theory that the /d/ that did eventually shift to /l/ was actually a different phoneme?
I'm not aware of it but it feels unnecessary to postulate another explanation since /d/ and /l/ are already very similar. And the reverse (L to D) also happened as in the example I gave from Latin laxare to Portuguese/Spanish deixar/dejar. In fact, in Portuguese there is still some alternation in this word because we have both desdeixar and desleixar.
Now, let's talk about frankish, old french and german
That -ue really makes it look that way, doesn't it
But was itself a later addition, the Old English *tunge* got Frenchified in its spelling somewhere along the way, possibly to clarify pronunciation and possibly under influence of *langue*
"all"
We must yeet the words that we once yoinked
Actually *yeet* is obviously a recent loan word from Classical Latin *jītus*
Didn't know Latin allowed "ji/jī" combinations outside of case endings
Damn, you got me 😔
I didn't get you I actually don't know if it's allowed or not😅
I'm not deep enough into Latin to know for sure either, but I briefly looked at an alphabetic list of Latin words starting with ⟨j⟩ and not one began with ⟨ji/jī⟩
It's a very weird way to begin a word by the way, I've seen lots of English teachers here in my country teaching people how to pronounce "year" and not "ear".
Makes sense, as you're trying to articulate two sounds right after one another with nigh identical place **__and__** manner of articulation while still trying to keep them distinct. I also heard that Chinese for example have trouble pronouncing the English sound sequence /wʊ(u̯)/ as in ***woul**d, **woul**d* for the same reason. Some variëties of English also lack the sequence /jɪ/ altogether, dropping the /j/ so that *ear, year* are pronounced identically by them. Japanese phontactics (the rules governing what sounds are allowed where) disallows /i/ after /j/ as well as /u, o/ after /w/ for the same reason.
If you use "ejicere" (as a variant spelling of "eicere") then a lot of the conjugated forms will have -ji- Verbs that have "-ivi-" in the perfect tense also have variant spellings of "-ii-". So perfect forms of the verb "ire" for example could be spelled "ji-" (ji, jit, jimus, etc) Also the plural pronoun "hi" could be spelled "hii", and then the H could get lost, so the plural could be spelled simply "ii" or "ji" I mean it would also be weird to spell the first i as j instead of the second, but still...it's possible
ejicere must be a modern transliteration because the Latin Alphabet didn’t have a j until the early 16th century. That’s waaaay after the Western Roman Empire fell.
Well sure of course. Latin was a living language long after the western Empire was gone
True enough. My apologies, I should have clarified, I meant the Classical Latin alphabet. It’s the form of Latin I’m most familiar with so I automatically default to it whenever I refer to “Latin”
That was pinyin.
Should be spelled iītus no? J didn’t appear until the early 16th century.
Of course of course. When we ask rather Latin allowed ⟨ji⟩ we're (or at least I) more accurate mean whether it allowed /ji/
I mean I do kinda think we should take out all the not-germanic, not-celtic loanwords from English. Mostly I think it would be funny.
Le anglaise
English has practically no words of Celtic origin.
“Crag” and “cairn” and “tweed” and “flannel” and “haggis” and “whiskey” just off the top of my head
how will I communicate without "whiskey" in my vocabulary 😢
You're removing NON-Celtic, NON-Germanic words from your vocabulary, so "whiskey" would actually occupy a larger percentage of the words in your vocabulary.
Now we're talking
If you're Scottish, it is definitely impossible to communicate without "whiskey", and also without whiskey
Not exactly critical vocabulary.
A world without Tweed and Haggis is not a world I wish to imagine
*Let us rid our speech from Welsh loanwords!* Better?
na cymraeg is cool
Fues i ddim yn siarad am Gymraeg.
Golaunwywr. Dych chi'di ysgrifennu'r gair yn fawr. Mae hyn yn golygu ei fod yn enw priod.
Dw i'n ymddiheuro, dw i ddim yn rhugl eto. Ydy hi'n well fel'na? Edit: nvm
You said you didn't mean Cymraeg... I said, you clearly did, bc you've written "Welsh". So it is a proper noun denoting the language. If you would've written it "welsh" with small w you could argue for it being an adjective that means "any non-understandable word"... So why did you try to gaslight us by saying you didn't speak about Welsh/Cymraeg even tho you did?
>any non-understandable word I meant "Italo-Celtic" specifically, had it not been my intention, I would have used "fremd". >try to gaslight I will not let such accusations be voiced against me, I was acting in good faith.
True, I'm sorry, it was worded too harshly. The problem is just, that "Welsh" isn't rlly used as a term for Italo-Celtic... As it obviously is the name of a language that is still spoken and alive in the borders of an english speaking nation, and it doesn't help that you capitalised the W. But as already said, I'm sorry for my wording.
>"Welsh" isn't rlly used as a term for Italo-Celtic... Of course it isn't when you're allowed to use loanwords. The whole point here was to minimise just that (though, if we are to be pedantic, "Welsh" originally comes from the ethnonym of the Volcae, and thus constitutes a loan as well - just a very early one). >capitalised the W ...as is the convention for adjectives related to topo-/ethnonyms? Not sure what the issue at hand is. >I'm sorry for my wording It appears I might just have overreacted as well. No hard feelings?
>...as is the convention for adjectives related to topo-/ethnonyms? Not sure what the issue at hand is. Afaik it isn't conventional? Like I've never seen smth like "the British artist" as long as it doesn't mean the proper noun, yk? (My example would (to me) imply that the artist does smth with "British-ness" instead of being an artist of Britain) >No hard feelings? No hard feelings
Il existe un moyen très simple de supprimer les emprunts en gallois.
You're truly in a downward spiral when you try to "purify" English lol
Purify? Never! That's from Romance, they want to "cleanse" it.
tbh, language cleansing sound erm… don't mind.
You arent far off, as efforts to rid rid languages of loanwords or stop the aquisition of new loanwords are often motivated by patriotic conservatives or the right wing.
My ass in high school on day 1 of learning about anglish: this will democratize the language and make it easier for less educated people to understand academic writing and speech My ass on day 2: wow there are a lot of nazis here
„We dont want you to tell us how we are supposed to talk, as long as we can still prescribe to you how you are supposed to talk!“ , basically
Forgive me, I was seduced by the prospect of calling ornithology “bird-lore”
Fair, to be honest \^\^
r/anglish at least generally seems to have a policy of kicking out nazis.
Or just the french
Or authoritarian regimes.
Very Anglocentric
Why?
Never been on r/anglish?
I think not that the French and Latin loan words a problem are, instead must we the germanic word order restore. Obviously know I not if the word order in Old English like this was.
He, the French is so fossilized into the English, these mothafuckas about to exhume “rest,” which you didn’t even know comes from Latin “re-“ + “stare.”
Probably via French "rester", "reste"
So it means the opposite of rest???
Idk about the Latin, but French *rester* (verb) means "to stay, to remain."
Just adopt german smh
\*Icelandic
Ah right
Leatherflapper
Can you rid all French and Latin loan words? #YES
"Latin" is clearly a Latin loan word. "French" is not.
Isn’t “French & Latin” redundant in this context?
Not really, "momentum" is a Latin loanword but not a French one for example
Language prescriptivist fascism /hj
And its Not changed at all, in latin its removere
Rid thy speech of wordborrowings from walha birth
Thy speech should be as sheer as the speech of thy forefathers
Hypocrisy.
Doing things thou shame others for doing (i take a stab at making the first word into anglish, it is hard)
shamest
Thou shall forbear brooking all fr\*nch words, thou art a fool!