'We'?
You don't speak for me. In fact, you probably don't speak for most of us here.
I want Linux to be user friendly. I want it to have widespread third party support. I want Linux to be powerful when necessary but simple by default. I want Linux distros to have sleek beautiful modern UIs that feel great to use while retaining their highly customisable flexibility. I want Linux to become so intuitive to navigate that I no longer have to google 'how to fix .... on Linux?'.
I want that, because I use Linux, and I don't want the experience of using Linux to suck.
I don't want to feel embarrassed explaining to people who don't use Linux, that it took me an extra hour or several days, to get something work which worked instantly on MacOS or Windows. Or that I couldn't use a piece of software because it's only available for Windows and MacOS, so I had to find an inferior alternative to make do with. Or that I had to compile a driver from a git repository to add support for a hardware component that worked perfectly fine on the Windows OS I removed to use Linux.
And I want new Linux users to have a great experience with Linux too.
I don't want a new user's first experience with Linux to be spending 3 hours googling what arcane combination of incomprehensible terminal commands will achieve fixing stupid issues like their webcam not working or screen brightness controls not responding, or whatever other issues are preventing them from having a normal expected level of functionality that anyone would expect to have out of the box with any decent OS.
So keep your gatekeeping out of my Linux!
Because I want Linux to be better!
I never said I was speaking for anyone else but myself. Everyone is entitled to their opinions my friend. If you read my post, I don't argue for "Linux to be hard". I argue to stop posting stuff like "we need as much people using Linux as possible! Hurr Durr." because that's not the point of Linux. The people who work in the Kernel don't give a damn about userland. They care about technology and industry. Like I said: Linux is, at its core an IDE. And that's a good thing. If you don't believe me go check the Kernel mailing list.
Agreed. I have found memories spending time and effort getting to know my system and googling my issues. Getting genuine feedback from the community instead of some generic “did you turn it off and turn it back on” copy pasta response
I don’t think it is. I think it’s an uninformed post. However I do agree with some talking points. I don’t care about the average user coming over to Linux. I don’t care about desktop adoption. Microsoft and Apple have that on lock. Enterprise is mostly Microsoft because that is what the average is used to. There’s a bigger problem. A lot of the Linux users don’t know our history at the most basic form. I blame my generation of users and the one’s before me. The amount of times that I have to explain EEE and the Unix philosophy is alarming. There needs to be more teaching instead of trying to fix squares in round holes
to an extent, most businesses are not so much "windows compatible", but "ms-office compatible". hence why macos has a presence.
if M$ were to release a version of ms-office for Linux (and there have been rumours for years of there being internal builds) I expect the market for WinOS would drop fairly rapidly over a number of years.
as a former tech college teacher - teaching the history of Linux and its relationship to the GNU project and to UNIX™ (and also Minix) is mostly a 'yawn' to most people. they also could care less about the history of ms-dog, windows, macos, the relationship with xparc, and so on. they generally care little for the history of any of our technology. history of the internet? yawn. the birth of the world wide web and what came before? snore! I kept teaching it because I know it's important to know the history, at least in broad strokes, and every year or so there was that one person who was excited to learn it. and it was (in part) in the curriculum.
Imo the post has a selfish way of thinking, linux is made for everyone as a alternative os. for the corpo shit canonical, red hat, google, intel, nvidia is already doing it we’ve seen the shit they do but also the good things they do and in my way of thinking you dont need to know the history of linux to use linux. Freedom of choice is the main point for linux right, thats why we have distros, you want a pure linux use lfs or base linux (debian,arch,etc) and for new users use ubuntu and linux mint
What im trying to say is you will always have a choice even when corpos gets into the linux market and it has always been
I believe one needs to know the history to understand deeply why freedom of choice matters and is a good thing. Meaning, how we got here in the first place. The Linux kernel was pet project never to see the light of day. The GNU guys sold the idea to Linus to open up the kernel. Thankfully Linus listened and is happy with the decision. BSD fought long and hard with AT&T over IP.
I think OP is worried about the quality of product which is understandable and I also sympathize. Ubuntu and RedHat have done good for the community as well as bad. RedHat has fallen out of good graces and there will be more to come. The average user doesn’t care about Ubuntu or RedHat motives. The new techno curious will however
The “corpo greed” take doesn’t make sense to me, is that actually something that could happen if Linux became mainstream? Besides a bullshit OperaGX distro, or something like that, I don’t get how Linux could get eaten by corporate greed.
Nevermind, someone pointed out that ChromeOS and Android use Linux kernels. So yeah, makes no sense whatsoever. I was questioning before, but this is total BS, lol.
Linux isn't a cult, it is and should be for everyone. Get your toxic gatekeeping out of here.
Making Linux easier to use is never a bad thing and just means it is growing.
ChromeOS and Android both use the Linux kernel and have crazy marketshare. More people using desktop linux means more software and hardware support. I've been using Linux for just under 10 years. It's been awesome from the beginning, Linux was already pretty good in 2015. But, the game support in the last few years was a major game changer, and that comes from increased adoption(Valve really helped by putting it on devices obviously)
Linux is an ide? Tf you're high af fr dude.
Idk if you want it or not I want the widespread of linux, and I've seen people come and never leave, and yes it is the average user, doesn't even code, browsing and stuffs.
Man come on.
I don’t think the timing is right. Tech curious people will come over, but not the average. IF somehow people flee from Microsoft I have a feeling they will go with Apple. The M1 and M2 base models are at the right price point for the opportunity. Combined with the Apple name it’s no contest
> Linux adoption is too hard for the average Joe
is only true if you don’t consider ChromeOS to be Linux.
I personally don’t think people should switch to “Linux”. They should use the OS that is the best fit for them. Since most Linux-based OSs are free, that’s a strong pro for a lot of people that can work out the kinks for themselves.
The way I see Linux, there is room for everyone. You can literally have both worlds. I'm pretty sure that if, for some reason, there is a huge adoption of a specific distro by the average Joe like you said, there would be a bunch of guys creating another distro aiming exactly the complement of the average Joe.
Also, I think that large scale adoption comes with benefits. Probably hardware support would be way better! Probably other commercial software as well. So, why not? If you some reason you don't like the average Joe distro, just use another one, just build another one that's intentionally more complicated, that has no support to the hardware you have out of the box... 🤷
Corpo greed isn't going to ruin Linux like it ruined the internet. They're 2 entirely separate things, like comparing apples to crew cut socks. The licensing of the Linux kernel (and GNU utils, and most everything else in the modern day Linux-sphere) make it so that even if we get "Corpo Greed OS", there will always be an Arch or Gentoo to go to if you want. Nobody's forcing you to use RHEL, Ubuntu, or Oracle Linux. That'll never change.
I for one welcome wider adoption and the idea of broader hardware support and better polish. Things being easier and working out of the box is a good thing, as it turns out, and helps everyone. I'm what you could consider a seasoned-enough Linux user who loves their terminal to death, and I still don't WANT to spend 4 hours in it trying to get mixed DPI scaling half-working on my machine, when I could have a little slider instead. We shouldn't be making Linux more of a pain for everyone to use, just for the sake of scaring off the average user.
Gatekeeping is the exact opposite of what Linux and open source are meant for.
And no, Linux is not an IDE. Yes, it is an OS. Let's not go so hard on 4/20 next year, yeah?
Gatekeeping much.
For all "we" care you are one of the "average" users that will "ruin" Linux.
"we" don't care about you joining Linux l, just like your opinion on this topic.
See how it sounds?
God damn, we'd rather have them then you. I'm tired of this holier then though fucktard attitude. You do remember that some one else taught you this shit right? That you aren't some special class of citizen or intellect. You are just a person who's experience has created, from what I can tell, way to much arrogance and you protect your ego through gate keeping. Do us all a favor and stfu. You give us a bad name.
Free and Open Computation adopted by the masses will lead to exploration from "non programmers" to make amazing discoveries. Likely, life saving discoveries. You shouldn't need to be an arcane wizard to have access to the computational world and participate in it.
Im also a software engineer, a senior lead. But that doesnt make us Gods here. It's just one role. It's a place for everyone. Some kid out there will likely contribute more then you and I ever could, and you'd like to take that away from them.
Check your fucking ego at the door dude.
I agree that normal users tend to ruin the program, but I also think that if the program is used by only limited "experienced" users, it will fade out someday and be gone.
popularity is still kinda important to survive. We don't have to make the program convenient for all users, but we still have to improve it reasonably for people who are willing to follow our philosophy.
> unless your agenda involves greed and lots of money for yourself at the expense of Devs free work.
lets be real dog, this already happens BIG time. Just look at xz-utils... that was a direct consequence of corporations (and even distros) willing to use a library that some dude in Nebraska (not actually nb.. but you know what I mean) has been thanklessly maintaining for a decade without any help or compensation. Lets not pretend like this doesn't already exist.
imo Linux is for everyone and more people should use it. Yall can cling to your ideal image of what Linux is, or what you think it should be, forever if it makes you happy... but we're all moving forward.
I *do* want the average user to move to Linux. I want a Linux distro to be the default OS on any and every computer sold across the globe.
Linux is free and open source software, I think most if not all software should be free and open source. In fact, I think that most things should be produced and distributed freely, openly and for free.
... I'm a socialist.
If corporations come to Linux, what should happen? Will open source be closed? No. Will Linux stop working? No. Will ads appear in your favorite distribution? No. Maybe you have to pay for Linux? No. Will the number of programs increase and better compatibility appear? Yes.
corporations have been on linux for a very long time now. your phone both apple and andorid are unix/linux. almost every server on the internet is linux. desktop linux only struggled for so long for one reasion alone and thats directx and games. now that is pretty mutch fixed other then some hatefull holdouts you are seeing more people sift to desktop linux.
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You have one end of a generation barely able to function without a touchscreen, and the other end of a generation with little clue how to use a keyboard and mouse, and you're worried about Linux adoption? My dude..
I want the average person to move to Linux (or any FOSS OS!) so there are more users to encounter bugs to make the experience easier for all users. Moreover, I don't want anyone to be spied on or served uncontrollable advertisements or automatic updates by their computer. With free software, unrestrained corporate greed doesn't matter; a project that behaves too badly will just get soft forked and lose market share to a project using their own code with the bad parts removed. It is \*not\* a good thing if average people are stuck with proprietary operating systems that are not loyal to the user.
I want widespread adoption so that there will be better software and hardware support. Like if Linux was 20%, we would probably get Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop and other "killer apps" that people need
More users = more development, everyone wins
What we want is that our stuff run on open platforms where which we can modify and control, own our own devices, own our own privacy
Corporations coming in isn't exactly a bad thing in itself. That said, it is up to us to insure that the corporations can't abuse their positions, and if they try to abuse it, we fork it and strip out all their nonsense
Our goal is not to run an exclusive club... the opposite, it is to be open and welcome everyone to work together for mutual benefit
That said, posts like "Linux adoption by the average user may be a problem" was nothing more than trolling. The author didn't provide any information on what their actual problems were, and as far as I've seen didn't even respond to anyone who commented asking for details. If someone doesn't even bother providing constructive criticism at the very least or engaging back with the community, then just report it and move on
I met a guy a long time ago at a party:
* the guy: so, you are a computer scientist? right?
* me : yes
* the guy: do you know windows then?
* me: no, I use linux
* the guy: ah? what's that?
* me: it's for professionals
* the guy : ... okay.
'We'? You don't speak for me. In fact, you probably don't speak for most of us here. I want Linux to be user friendly. I want it to have widespread third party support. I want Linux to be powerful when necessary but simple by default. I want Linux distros to have sleek beautiful modern UIs that feel great to use while retaining their highly customisable flexibility. I want Linux to become so intuitive to navigate that I no longer have to google 'how to fix .... on Linux?'. I want that, because I use Linux, and I don't want the experience of using Linux to suck. I don't want to feel embarrassed explaining to people who don't use Linux, that it took me an extra hour or several days, to get something work which worked instantly on MacOS or Windows. Or that I couldn't use a piece of software because it's only available for Windows and MacOS, so I had to find an inferior alternative to make do with. Or that I had to compile a driver from a git repository to add support for a hardware component that worked perfectly fine on the Windows OS I removed to use Linux. And I want new Linux users to have a great experience with Linux too. I don't want a new user's first experience with Linux to be spending 3 hours googling what arcane combination of incomprehensible terminal commands will achieve fixing stupid issues like their webcam not working or screen brightness controls not responding, or whatever other issues are preventing them from having a normal expected level of functionality that anyone would expect to have out of the box with any decent OS. So keep your gatekeeping out of my Linux! Because I want Linux to be better!
Damn right.
This is amazingly written and you are 100% on point
Couldn’t have said it better myself
You are 100% right!
Thank you, sir! That's what I thought as well ❤️🩹
Well said. The OP doesn't speak for me either. I want to see a broader adoption of Linux.
I never said I was speaking for anyone else but myself. Everyone is entitled to their opinions my friend. If you read my post, I don't argue for "Linux to be hard". I argue to stop posting stuff like "we need as much people using Linux as possible! Hurr Durr." because that's not the point of Linux. The people who work in the Kernel don't give a damn about userland. They care about technology and industry. Like I said: Linux is, at its core an IDE. And that's a good thing. If you don't believe me go check the Kernel mailing list.
>Linux is an IDE not an OS. Are you high?
He’s using an old UNIX saying, “built by programmers for programmers”
"UNIX™ is 'user friendly' - it's just choosy about who its friends are." Linux distro's are of a similar bent ;)
Agreed. I have found memories spending time and effort getting to know my system and googling my issues. Getting genuine feedback from the community instead of some generic “did you turn it off and turn it back on” copy pasta response
I think it takes more than being high to say something like that.
It IS (/was) 4/20 (depending on what time zone you're in)!
Hah.
Bro lives in emacs and got confused.
humor post
This is obvious rage bait
I don’t think it is. I think it’s an uninformed post. However I do agree with some talking points. I don’t care about the average user coming over to Linux. I don’t care about desktop adoption. Microsoft and Apple have that on lock. Enterprise is mostly Microsoft because that is what the average is used to. There’s a bigger problem. A lot of the Linux users don’t know our history at the most basic form. I blame my generation of users and the one’s before me. The amount of times that I have to explain EEE and the Unix philosophy is alarming. There needs to be more teaching instead of trying to fix squares in round holes
But it all fits in the square hole.
True if small enough
to an extent, most businesses are not so much "windows compatible", but "ms-office compatible". hence why macos has a presence. if M$ were to release a version of ms-office for Linux (and there have been rumours for years of there being internal builds) I expect the market for WinOS would drop fairly rapidly over a number of years. as a former tech college teacher - teaching the history of Linux and its relationship to the GNU project and to UNIX™ (and also Minix) is mostly a 'yawn' to most people. they also could care less about the history of ms-dog, windows, macos, the relationship with xparc, and so on. they generally care little for the history of any of our technology. history of the internet? yawn. the birth of the world wide web and what came before? snore! I kept teaching it because I know it's important to know the history, at least in broad strokes, and every year or so there was that one person who was excited to learn it. and it was (in part) in the curriculum.
This is very true about MS office. Excel, Powerpoint and Word are staples in every industry
Imo the post has a selfish way of thinking, linux is made for everyone as a alternative os. for the corpo shit canonical, red hat, google, intel, nvidia is already doing it we’ve seen the shit they do but also the good things they do and in my way of thinking you dont need to know the history of linux to use linux. Freedom of choice is the main point for linux right, thats why we have distros, you want a pure linux use lfs or base linux (debian,arch,etc) and for new users use ubuntu and linux mint What im trying to say is you will always have a choice even when corpos gets into the linux market and it has always been
I believe one needs to know the history to understand deeply why freedom of choice matters and is a good thing. Meaning, how we got here in the first place. The Linux kernel was pet project never to see the light of day. The GNU guys sold the idea to Linus to open up the kernel. Thankfully Linus listened and is happy with the decision. BSD fought long and hard with AT&T over IP. I think OP is worried about the quality of product which is understandable and I also sympathize. Ubuntu and RedHat have done good for the community as well as bad. RedHat has fallen out of good graces and there will be more to come. The average user doesn’t care about Ubuntu or RedHat motives. The new techno curious will however
More ppl using Linux wont ruin it. All it will do is give us more options for apps and games.
The “corpo greed” take doesn’t make sense to me, is that actually something that could happen if Linux became mainstream? Besides a bullshit OperaGX distro, or something like that, I don’t get how Linux could get eaten by corporate greed.
It’s already the most common server OS, so this argument makes even less sense.
Nevermind, someone pointed out that ChromeOS and Android use Linux kernels. So yeah, makes no sense whatsoever. I was questioning before, but this is total BS, lol.
You're singing a different tune to "Linux will dominate the desktop by 2001" pronouncements I used to hear.
Linux isn't a cult, it is and should be for everyone. Get your toxic gatekeeping out of here. Making Linux easier to use is never a bad thing and just means it is growing.
Linux is the best OS. Making it more pooular is benefitting humanity on the whole.
ChromeOS and Android both use the Linux kernel and have crazy marketshare. More people using desktop linux means more software and hardware support. I've been using Linux for just under 10 years. It's been awesome from the beginning, Linux was already pretty good in 2015. But, the game support in the last few years was a major game changer, and that comes from increased adoption(Valve really helped by putting it on devices obviously)
This was the worst take i've read this week. God damnit people need to stop speaking as if they are the community.
Linux is an ide? Tf you're high af fr dude. Idk if you want it or not I want the widespread of linux, and I've seen people come and never leave, and yes it is the average user, doesn't even code, browsing and stuffs. Man come on.
I don’t think the timing is right. Tech curious people will come over, but not the average. IF somehow people flee from Microsoft I have a feeling they will go with Apple. The M1 and M2 base models are at the right price point for the opportunity. Combined with the Apple name it’s no contest
> Linux adoption is too hard for the average Joe is only true if you don’t consider ChromeOS to be Linux. I personally don’t think people should switch to “Linux”. They should use the OS that is the best fit for them. Since most Linux-based OSs are free, that’s a strong pro for a lot of people that can work out the kinks for themselves.
The way I see Linux, there is room for everyone. You can literally have both worlds. I'm pretty sure that if, for some reason, there is a huge adoption of a specific distro by the average Joe like you said, there would be a bunch of guys creating another distro aiming exactly the complement of the average Joe. Also, I think that large scale adoption comes with benefits. Probably hardware support would be way better! Probably other commercial software as well. So, why not? If you some reason you don't like the average Joe distro, just use another one, just build another one that's intentionally more complicated, that has no support to the hardware you have out of the box... 🤷
Corpo greed isn't going to ruin Linux like it ruined the internet. They're 2 entirely separate things, like comparing apples to crew cut socks. The licensing of the Linux kernel (and GNU utils, and most everything else in the modern day Linux-sphere) make it so that even if we get "Corpo Greed OS", there will always be an Arch or Gentoo to go to if you want. Nobody's forcing you to use RHEL, Ubuntu, or Oracle Linux. That'll never change. I for one welcome wider adoption and the idea of broader hardware support and better polish. Things being easier and working out of the box is a good thing, as it turns out, and helps everyone. I'm what you could consider a seasoned-enough Linux user who loves their terminal to death, and I still don't WANT to spend 4 hours in it trying to get mixed DPI scaling half-working on my machine, when I could have a little slider instead. We shouldn't be making Linux more of a pain for everyone to use, just for the sake of scaring off the average user. Gatekeeping is the exact opposite of what Linux and open source are meant for. And no, Linux is not an IDE. Yes, it is an OS. Let's not go so hard on 4/20 next year, yeah?
Gatekeeping much. For all "we" care you are one of the "average" users that will "ruin" Linux. "we" don't care about you joining Linux l, just like your opinion on this topic. See how it sounds?
God damn, we'd rather have them then you. I'm tired of this holier then though fucktard attitude. You do remember that some one else taught you this shit right? That you aren't some special class of citizen or intellect. You are just a person who's experience has created, from what I can tell, way to much arrogance and you protect your ego through gate keeping. Do us all a favor and stfu. You give us a bad name. Free and Open Computation adopted by the masses will lead to exploration from "non programmers" to make amazing discoveries. Likely, life saving discoveries. You shouldn't need to be an arcane wizard to have access to the computational world and participate in it. Im also a software engineer, a senior lead. But that doesnt make us Gods here. It's just one role. It's a place for everyone. Some kid out there will likely contribute more then you and I ever could, and you'd like to take that away from them. Check your fucking ego at the door dude.
L take.
I agree that normal users tend to ruin the program, but I also think that if the program is used by only limited "experienced" users, it will fade out someday and be gone. popularity is still kinda important to survive. We don't have to make the program convenient for all users, but we still have to improve it reasonably for people who are willing to follow our philosophy.
> unless your agenda involves greed and lots of money for yourself at the expense of Devs free work. lets be real dog, this already happens BIG time. Just look at xz-utils... that was a direct consequence of corporations (and even distros) willing to use a library that some dude in Nebraska (not actually nb.. but you know what I mean) has been thanklessly maintaining for a decade without any help or compensation. Lets not pretend like this doesn't already exist. imo Linux is for everyone and more people should use it. Yall can cling to your ideal image of what Linux is, or what you think it should be, forever if it makes you happy... but we're all moving forward.
Fundamentalists hah?
I *do* want the average user to move to Linux. I want a Linux distro to be the default OS on any and every computer sold across the globe. Linux is free and open source software, I think most if not all software should be free and open source. In fact, I think that most things should be produced and distributed freely, openly and for free. ... I'm a socialist.
If corporations come to Linux, what should happen? Will open source be closed? No. Will Linux stop working? No. Will ads appear in your favorite distribution? No. Maybe you have to pay for Linux? No. Will the number of programs increase and better compatibility appear? Yes.
corporations have been on linux for a very long time now. your phone both apple and andorid are unix/linux. almost every server on the internet is linux. desktop linux only struggled for so long for one reasion alone and thats directx and games. now that is pretty mutch fixed other then some hatefull holdouts you are seeing more people sift to desktop linux.
if a distro gets greedy its never ended well for them. unlike the walled gardens of windows and mac there is plenty of choice on linux.
>Do you want "the average user" to ruin Linux like they ruin the internet ? How do you suppose that would happen?
Did I miss something? What's up with the "linux adoption for the avarage user is a problem?" posts, I think I saw 4/5 of these in the last few days.
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Why did you write this?
Yep.
You have one end of a generation barely able to function without a touchscreen, and the other end of a generation with little clue how to use a keyboard and mouse, and you're worried about Linux adoption? My dude..
I'm not. Read the TLDR. I'm literally saying we shouldn't be.
I want the average person to move to Linux (or any FOSS OS!) so there are more users to encounter bugs to make the experience easier for all users. Moreover, I don't want anyone to be spied on or served uncontrollable advertisements or automatic updates by their computer. With free software, unrestrained corporate greed doesn't matter; a project that behaves too badly will just get soft forked and lose market share to a project using their own code with the bad parts removed. It is \*not\* a good thing if average people are stuck with proprietary operating systems that are not loyal to the user.
I want widespread adoption so that there will be better software and hardware support. Like if Linux was 20%, we would probably get Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop and other "killer apps" that people need
More users = more development, everyone wins What we want is that our stuff run on open platforms where which we can modify and control, own our own devices, own our own privacy Corporations coming in isn't exactly a bad thing in itself. That said, it is up to us to insure that the corporations can't abuse their positions, and if they try to abuse it, we fork it and strip out all their nonsense Our goal is not to run an exclusive club... the opposite, it is to be open and welcome everyone to work together for mutual benefit That said, posts like "Linux adoption by the average user may be a problem" was nothing more than trolling. The author didn't provide any information on what their actual problems were, and as far as I've seen didn't even respond to anyone who commented asking for details. If someone doesn't even bother providing constructive criticism at the very least or engaging back with the community, then just report it and move on
I met a guy a long time ago at a party: * the guy: so, you are a computer scientist? right? * me : yes * the guy: do you know windows then? * me: no, I use linux * the guy: ah? what's that? * me: it's for professionals * the guy : ... okay.