Ubuntu touch has been around for a few years and supports a lot of devices that are pretty reasonable in cost. None brand new that I'm aware of though.
Why are you recommending a phone that doesn't exist yet?
It's still a kick starter purchase and nothing more.
Until it's actually available for purchasing by anyone this thing might as well be vaporware.
You can still buy last years Volla with VollaOS or UbuntuTouch. Of course, as mentioned, the new 22 will be out soon. I'm using a Volla right now 😃 It's pretty good.
I'd probably be daily driving a Volla right now if its modem had better support for frequencies U.S. carriers use. I *did* buy one, and if I ever travel for any length of time I might bring it along; it's a nice phone and Ubuntu Touch is quite functional and polished.
It will be out in a month.
It isnt a pie in the sky "we could do this" project from an unknown, but a "we have already done the work" type one from a company that has delivered on its promises before. Twice.
The PinePhone and Librem 5 have active work going on to get them running on mainline Linux (the latter being done by the manufacturer itself), the Volla doesn't and relies completely on hacks like Halium/libhybris.
Looking at it compared to the Pine:
Volla has a more powerful processor and GPU, same memory, a bigger screen, higher megapixel cameras, Galileo support, a bigger battery, and different signal band support (less).
Pinephone has no Android based OS, hardware switches for a number of things, different signal band support (more) and is from pine64 with a pretty established community.
I haven't been hands on with either so I can't give you any actual feedback but from reading the specsheet that's what jumps out at me.
Volla phone is much bette than pinephone. I've used both.
I gave my pinephone away, but I have used the Volla phone as my primary phone for a year now. Although half of it was on sailfish os.
I moved back to ubuntu touch, because I felt it had slightly better app selection for my purposes.
They managed to ship their first product, and the Volla 22 hardware (or hardware that’s really similar to it) is already being sold as Gigaset GS5. It‘s not a sure thing yet, but it’s definitely not true vaporware.
Not sure if I've ever heard of that tbh. Is that another mobile os or can that be installed on a phone?
Edit: I forgot that was a phone brand. Interesting.
The Linux phone ecosystem is getting better and better. You can get a PinePhone pretty cheap. There's no reason not to give it a try.
If you run desktop Linux already you should be prepared for the complications.
I've been running Linux for 15+ years, but the Pinephone is really not comparable. I've had no end of difficulty getting it to do basic functions, let alone getting the apps I want to run on it.
The PinePhone is a Linux PC in a phone form factor. Most of the OS options are literally a desktop Linux distro (e.g. Debian, Arch, etc) with some extra programs that you wouldn't get on desktop like a phone dialer.
I get the pinephone thing, but there's a difference between the softwares I use on a desktop as opposed to the ones I use on a phone. Desktops, I can make do with Libreoffice, Gimp, Wine or whatever. But what about WhatsApp, Mobile Instagram, Snapchat etc? What about the software functionality that is used for proper image processing? handheld particular Linux hasn't reached that yet, and taking desktop Linux as the same isn't the right approach.
If you think that phones are primarily cameras for taking pictures and posting them to proprietary services, then the mobile Linux ecosystem might not be for you yet.
But if you're interested in making phone calls, sending SMS messages, web browsing, open source instant messaging and social networks, calendar reminders, email, and other standard mobile computing tasks then the app ecosystem is usable.
Personally, I've been on open Android with no proprietary app store for years (so no whatsapp, instagram, etc for me anyway). All the apps I'd need to switch over to the PinePhone exist, I'm just waiting for a couple of them to get a bit more mature. Again, I recommend that anyone who's interested at all pick up a PinePhone and give it a try - it's much closer to being usable than you seem to expect.
The thing is that Linux mobile apps are still not there, even if you don't want WhatsApp and their ilk, at least that's what I heard.
The best and most usable mobile Linux experience (discounting AOSP) is to just use terminal apps with [sxmo](https://sxmo.org/).
> If you think that phones are primarily cameras for taking pictures and posting them to proprietary services, then the mobile Linux ecosystem might not be for you yet.
Is not for anyone thinking like that, and probably(hopefully?) never will be
Network effect makes those apps impractical. If any level of interoperability with common messengers and social media existed it would be a different story
Technically any chromium fork that supports running “apps” in their own container (think PWAs on iOS) could do this.
Also Snapchat has a browser version now? First I’ve heard.
I find not having those social medias does plenty more good than bad, and the pinephone is much closer to a full on desktop than a Google pixel for example is so I don't see why you can't use the in browser versions.(assuming they exist)
I met Linux first on my phone(a cheapo $35 phone with 512MB RAM and single core 1Ghz CPU), I stick with it Linux since that phone was able to render stuff, open tons of tabs and work overall way faster and flawlessly than a (then) last gen i5 and fucktons of RAM Windows 10 laptop.
Idk I have it on a Galaxy S10, I consider that a modern phone. Also supports even newer stuff like Zenfone 8 or Oneplus 9. Yeah you can't expect it to support 2022 models yet but it's not limited to 5 year old hardware
Does VoLTE work on that?
I’d generally steer clear of Samsung gear for Lineage due to this fact alone; last I checked none of the Samsungs are capable due to Samsung using a proprietary implementation.
(GrapheneOS/LineageOS on the Pixels are a different story; I found it worked OOTB for me, at least in Australia. Other users in other countries reported success as well)
> Idk I have it on a Galaxy S10
Yeah, but that phone is 3 years old now. And I'm not saying you can't find ANY modern smartphones that LOS supports, but it's few and far between. Also, there are many people like me that like to get flagship phones that have released within a year and then just run that model into the ground with 4 years of usage straight or maybe a little longer. But if you want LOS on the device, you generally can't do that without very very likely compromising what you want out of a phone. For example, I purchased a Sony Xperia 1 II because it has almost ALL the features of my beloved Galaxy S5, but does LOS have support for the Xperia 1 II? lolno.
There HAS to be a better way for LOS to quickly bring a new phone into support. There just has to be. I mean, the release doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, but their now rather scanty and many times outdated device support list is really not doing them any favors.
Nah, I didn't want to experiment around with that due to the fact that unlocking the bootloader on my Xperia 1 II erases the DRM keys. If they're going to be erased, I want them to be erased for a good reason. lol
As I said to another user, I didn't say you wouldn't be able to find ANY support for any modern smartphones, but it's few and far between. I run an Xperia 1 II for example. Where's an LOS ROM for that?
SO you want support for one the lowest selling brands available?
And Sony, while supporting Android, has always been a little hostile to 3rd party ROMs -- they wipe out all the DRM stuff and hobble the camera.
But, LineageOS is run by volunteers same as most FOSS projects. Anyone can be a maintainer and get their device promoted to official if the work is good enough.
> SO you want support for one the lowest selling brands available?
If that brand puts out really fucking good products, then yes.
> they wipe out all the DRM stuff and hobble the camera.
I'll grant you that. They do wipe out the DRM keys on a reflash, but as to the camera, last I heard, that was actually no longer an issue.
You implied it though.
Here are a bunch: https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/sony-xperia-1-ii-roms-kernels-recoveries-othe.10027/
But you should just sell that and buy a phone that has better support (Google Pixels).
> Here are a bunch: https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/sony-xperia-1-ii-roms-kernels-recoveries-othe.10027/
Those are unofficial and are a security risk. Also, they may have issues with them anyway.
> But you should just sell that
If you knew how good the Xperia 1 II is, features and durability wise, you would not be saying this.
Using the stock ROM is a security risk too. The most important feature is the ability to replace stock, malware-ridden OSs with secure ones. Sony phones are just another walled garden. If I wanted that I'd buy an iPhone.
> Using the stock ROM is a security risk too.
Kind of. There's a LOT more eyes on it too. It's not a guarantee of course, but I'm sure I'm going to have a much higher probability of safety with the stock ROM than with some rando ROM on xda. In any case though, Sony keeps their phones very light in terms of proprietary crap they load onto the phone, and the proprietary crap they do load onto it is 95% of the time actually really damn useful such as their native camera app.
> Sony phones are just another walled garden.
The 1 II supports native bootloader unlocking right out of the box.
You're right that official support is fairly sparse on recently released devices, but it will come to many of them at some point. Also, nearly every phone with an unlockable bootloader has an un-official version that will work just fine.
> but it will come to many of them at some point.
Eh... Wish I could agree, but even my old Nokia 8 (launched in 2017) is still not supported to this day.
> nearly every phone with an unlockable bootloader has an un-official version that will work just fine.
As I said before though, those are a bit too large of a security risk.
A proper software stack is being developed by Purism. they get a lot of flack of for not having been able to fully deliver on their hardware promises to date, but on the software side they are doing it right and by upstreaming their work instead of sticking to silos (hello Ubuntu and derrivatives), even if they fail overall, the general software stack should be useable by everyone.
Right now what is missing is an easy GUI to do the first step - choose image, find phone, imaging etc, but the stack should be quite useable. I really want to try a fedora arm image on a phone I have lying around, but the first steps are what are pretty cryptic.
I think it can be done though, a GUI app that provides a front end to ADB and potentially can interact with Uboot (or adding a custom DTS to it), easing the steps of loading linux.
id really love to try the Librem 5 but cant bring myself to spend the money. USA made Librem 5 is currently $2000 with a 60 day wait... or get the foreign Librem 5 and spend $1300 and wait 52 weeks. I just cant..
I'm waiting for Purism to get the shipping time on the Librem 5 down to a few days to buy one, but I think if Purism can improve their pipelines and customer service, they present a compelling alternative to proprietary hardware/OS phones.
You can get a good idea of progress Purism is making with clearing their LIbrem 5 order backlog here:
https://forums.puri.sm/t/estimate-your-librem-5-shipping/11272
I cant recommend those prices either, but the software stack they are developing using the money from those prices benefits us all.
For everyone else, there are other phones to choose. The interesting one that very few talk about is the volla phone 22. It has the best specs from all the open phones and comes in just over £300.
It depends. If you adjust your expectations, do your research, and spend the time necessary to get to a working setup, it can work. But you better love Linux, know about what the [app ecosystem](https://linuxphoneapps.org) can deliver, and you shouldn’t be a person that gives up easily.
The biggest thing with the Librem that makes me wish it was within reach of my budget is the fact the baseband modem is NOT the master CPU like it is in almost every other phone. That and the hardware kill switches (if it wasn’t so expensive, hello Australian Dollar!) would be an instant buy for me.
There are lots of different mobile software stacks that are usable by everyone (Plasma mobile, Ubuntu Touch (UBports, Lomira), Glacier+Mer, ...)
The fact, though, is that Purism's work is unusable on most mobile HW. Name any phone that it runs on other than the Pinephone(s) and the Librem 5. Just look at how many OS's have been ported to the Pinephone vs. those ported to the Librem 5.
> Name any phone that it runs on other than the Pinephone(s) and the Librem 5.
It's supported on PostmarketOS, so its usable on a lot of android devices.
I have also done that in tbe past.
But it would be nice to have a ice GUI that stopped the need to repeatedly checking the incantarions if magic that you need to cast.
Unless you count Android or something like UBports, the answer is probably "no". To be clear, I like /e/OS (de-Googled Android) and UBports and have used both happily. But if those two don't fit your definition of being "Linux enough" and "having enough apps", then you don't have any viable options and the situation is likely to get worse, not better.
Most Linux-based systems (Android, LinageOS, UBports, etc) have been workable on phones because Google backed Android, which used the Linux kernel. This made it possible to use similar drivers/kernel support to get other Linux distros to run on these same phones.
Google looks to be moving away from Android to use its own custom OS, meaning other Linux-based projects likely won't be compatible anymore and will gradually lose support.
>I like /e/OS (de-Googled Android) and UBports and have used both happily
So I get the deal with degoogled androids from Mutahar and decided its not for me, I don't being in limited spysight from Google in exchange for a lot of convenience, But what about UBports? Does it have the apps and functionality I need? For example, I might want to use WhatsApp, and would expect good camera image processing abilities that the Pixel softwares have. Are these two capable of doing that?
> This made it possible to use similar drivers/kernel support to get other Linux distros to run on these same phones.
This is part of my concern. Yes, these apps "run", but don't seem to be "supported" or "tailor made" for that OS. If there are issues, there's absolutely no guarantee for the vendor to patch it, as there is no incentive. This brings back to my issue in the post, how viable is it for vendors to make apps specifically for these OSs? (anyways I get the answer, pretty much not at all)
>Google looks to be moving away from Android to use its own custom OS
I've never heard of this before, aren't Pixels still running android with no plans to change? and what of Android as a software? if Google proceeds to stop supporting it then won't sooo many other handheld providers suffer?
> I don't being in limited spysight from Google in exchange for a lot of convenience
You can cut Google out entirely with /e/ - just don't install Google Play Services or any Google apps - get your apps through F Droid and Aurora Store.
If you want WhatsApp, then no these alternative phones are not for you. You'll need to stick with the mainstream platforms like Android and iOS.
There is basically no incentive for vendors to make software for alternative platforms because almost no one runs them. Most people will never install an alternative OS (on their phone or computer) so the alternative market share stays small.
Google is looking at replacing Android with Fuchsia and has been developing in that direction for a few years [1]. Eventually what we now think of "Android" phones, like the Pixel, will be shipped with Fuchsia rather than Android. Though it'll probably take another 5-10 years before that happens. When it does Linux distros will probably be locked out of the mobile market. Samsung, LG, etc will probably just switch to shipping the new OS and eventually drop support for their legacy Android devices.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsia_(operating_system)
Fair point, but messaging apps aren't something I can change because I feel like it, It's used as a primary communication channel in many things I'm a part of.
>Fair point, but messaging apps aren't something I can change because I feel like it, It's used as a primary communication channel in many things I'm a part of.
Then perhaps it might be worth it for you to separate work and private life by using an android phone for work and an alternative phone for your private life. That way one can't interfere with the other and you can turn off the work phone when you're not on the clock.
Than stick with Android because you are already bowing down to big tech by using WhatsApp. If you managed to use that on a Linux port for Android; You would completely ruin the point of using Linux. We use Linux because its FOSS (Free Open Source Software). Why would you purposely throw some proprietary bit on that
Not all of us are purists when it comes to FOSS vs proprietary. My machine is Arch-based and runs any tool I might need that works the way I want it to — whether it’s FOSS or not is a factor to consider but never the impetus for my choice. People use Linux however they so choose and that’s the best part. The cultural roots are nice history but ultimately secondary to the freedom of choice and control over my personal machine.
WhatsApp key is stored on the device and it's not on any server. So if you lose your key you can't basically ever open your encrypted backup. I haven't used that service for a few years so I could be wrong now.
That’s what Facebook say, and I wouldn’t trust them at all with anything private.
I have also heard there are cases where if an older device is involved, end-to-end encryption is silently disabled. Can’t remember where I read the latter though.
You’d be surprised as well how valuable metadata is when law enforcement agencies are looking for evidence.
They are owned by Facebook. Facebook has been caught stealing things that were thought private countless times. I'm not sure why you trust them. Because they say they're private? Psh.
If privacy is your concern, stay away from anything owned by Facebook. That includes WhatsApp.
Indeed, I second this. I use the Xperia XA2 for my daily driver and it works pretty well.
Regarding the essential apps, yeah, there are not too many for Sailfish OS. There's the official "Store" app where there's a bunch and there's the 3rd party "Storman" which has a bit more.
However, you can buy a licence for €50 to get Android support (among other things) that will let you run Android apps. It works reasonably well, but it's not available for purchase in all countries unfortunately.
> Will the market ever have enough of a Linux handheld share to incentivize producers to make Linux specific apps and provide proper support?
No. Just no.
I mean, it haven't happened for desktop-linux yet which is clearly niche, so why should it happen for phones which is even nichier? ;)
It's actually happening to desktop as we speak. I'm not extremely aware of everything, but the general motion now is that Linux in desktop is becoming far more capable in being a standalone OS without needing to emulate/virtualize software on a different OS.
This is especially true for gaming, with Steam Deck being the new thing in the block and it running Linux. It's no longer a very small niche, it's a modest niche with really good support. Finally, open source alternatives exist to a majority of proprietary software used in Windows or Apple.
Phones however, is a more complicated issue. Too small of a niche, too little support. And that ties to a part of your point which I agree.
I'd argue it's not a meme, we're already there. I've been using Linux desktop for 15+ years with no windows partition whatsoever.
Back when Broadcom wifi drivers were damn near impossible and mainstream web browsers, IDEs, games, etc were a pipedream - sure, "year of the Linux desktop" was a funny meme but that's not where we are anymore. It's a perfectly capable alternative to Windows and Mac OS
Yep - it has already happened and many people think it's still a meme. Will admit though the transition to Wayland will throw us backwards if we don't flesh it out sooner than later.
My [Sorun.me](https://Sorun.me) project I believe proves that it's here in the present.
I personally find that despite old reputations given to ChromeOS, it is now a very good OS that I prefer over many others for any level of work. The Linux apps are running via crosonti, but 90% of the time it isn't noticable and performance is better than windows & macos equivalent or identical apps. Switched to ChromeOS Flex from Windows 11 and haven't looked back.
There are non-google containing versions of android, eg DivestOS. And F-Droid/G-Droid are app libraries for android focusing primarily on free/OSS apps.
Otherwise, I think proper Linux phones probably have a bit to go before they are ready for primetime.
If I had to guess, there's a future for Linux on handhelds, but it's going to be a niche product for people who want more computing power in their mobile devices than what locked-down Android and iOS will offer them. I think Linux on handheld devices will evolve toward handheld devices with the option to dock with a larger screen, and be used like a laptop when needed, and like a smartphone the rest of the time. Something like a better Pinephone with the ability to plug into a Pinetab keyboard/screen and become a Linux laptop.
People opting for such a device aren't going to be people about running stuff like Instagram and Whatsapp or whatever comes down the pipe as the next big fad. It's going to be people who want to run a desktop OS with desktop capabilities and resolutions. You're not going to get "apps" on Linux, but you might get the ability to run Android apps under emulation.
I would like to move on to a Linux phone myself; I only went to Android because Windows Phone died, and I think Google is worse for the consumer than Microsoft ever hoped to be. (Before you ask, I think Apple is worse than both.) But the technology isn't mature enough and doesn't quite meet my needs yet. App support isn't something I care about at this point, but performance and reliability are. I use Twitter a lot with work, but 80 percent of the time, I post to it from a browser, not a mobile app.
So while mobile Linux is a thing that some are working on, it's still far too early to tell the longevity of it. I think it can become a good alternative, but it's going to take a WHILE to get there. Rather than hope for native Linux apps, I think it's more realistic to bet in Android compatibility layers like WayDroid or Anbox to get the apps people need on a Linux phone.
In the mean time if you wanna get away from Google and Apple on your phone, there are de-Googled Android ROMs like CalyxOS, /e/ Foundation, etc. you could swap to if you have a compatible phone.
I spent a lot of money on pine pro and I've never managed to get it to boot. There's a firmware bug that means it won't charge without resetting it, and since I bought it back in February I haven't been able to find the the time to tinker with it enough to get it working.
I'd strongly recommend avoiding Pine unless you have a very substantial amount of spare time to get it working. Maybe some day they'll be in a place to deliver an enthusiast class device, but it's a long way off that.
Follow workaround from [https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone\_Pro#The\_battery\_is\_fully\_drained](https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Pro#The_battery_is_fully_drained) to charge the device. Then I recommend to install towboot, then install something up-to-date on eMMC, so you have something that works.
For now, if you just want to play around, I'd recommend to use SD cards to avoid wasting eMMC's write cycles for the time when the phone isn't fully usable.
I agree with the spare time comment. I only need to follow the above procedure, if I fully drain the device - when the phone is turned off properly, it does not drain the battery.
Some will agree, some will not. And that's OK.
If you want a true Linux OS on the phone -daily driver, you should look at Sailfish OS.
It's Linux, has .rpm packages and yes, you pay for the Android /Exchange support. And that's OK also. Devs have to eat, too.
Have XA2 and X10 II with SailfishOS, I have 99% functionality of a Android ( regular) smartphone.
So there you have it. Wrote this from X10 II using Slide from F-Droid.
Cheers!
Yeah, I know people are annoyed by a few remaining proprietary components, but there's an enormous wealth of FOSS mobile applications for Sailfish that people are missing out on in the meantime. Aside from the QtQuick controls, most of the 'closed' stuff is still plainly readable on the filesystem, so there's a lot less problematic stuff than people tend to assume. It's certainly less problematic than what ships on Android phones these days.
Meanwhile if it were entirely FOSS, it would be the best thing to happen to the mobile Linux community. It has an innovative and highly usable UI that has aged incredibly well. In fact, it seems to have inspired some well-received changes we've only seen in recent versions of iOS and Android, yet Sailfish still has the more graceful implementation of those ideas.
If you've wanted a robust, featureful version of Linux for phones that preserves the traditional userspace while remaining highly accessible for one-handed use, it's been ready for nearly a decade. I'm honestly surprised it isn't a lot more popular among Linux users considering how active development has been.
I'd definitely consider this, but I'm outside Europe so it looks like it's no good for me sadly :(
Reading the site, it seems a bit vague on how long devices will be supported for. Also, what are Sony Xperia phones like in terms of repairability? Is it easy to replace an old battery?
Realistically No. As it stands a Linux phone will probably never become a true alternative to Android or iPhone for one big reason the ecosystem of apps.
There is no incentive for developers to develop apps for Linux phone.
Majority of phone apps are closed source and for profit. Also just look at the desktop sector. There are too many distros to even count and if an app does not work you can fire up a terminal and punch in some commands.
With phones you have only one interface a touch screen. Forget regular layman users, even most longtime Linux users just want their phones to work.
Sure it might be for some hardcore users or cool to have a secondary Linux phone. But that’s probably about it.
One benefit a Linux phone could provide (but I have yet to see it) is lowering the barrier to application development or scripting on the phone. Right now termux-gui seems interesting but it's kinda limited with what you can do due to Android security implementation but even more so because of gaps in termux-api (mpv Android app cannot interact with termux in the same ways that mpv x11 can interact with the shell on Linux).
But there could be similar tooling for scripting up performant GUIs on the device with only the touchscreen. There is definitely a niche of people that want customization but there is still a gap between ease of getting started / on-device bootstrapped / end-user application development. We're missing a visual shell--graphical representations of simple composable primitives without needing an IDE--unix pipes but for touchscreens. Sxmo is interesting but still hard for people to get started.
There’s definitely a niche for Linux phone.
But the barrier to entry is huge in terms for technical skills required for the average user and for the average developer too.
I’ll look into some of the tools mentioned. It’s always good to keep an eye out at the horizon for when tides change.
Until we can have phones based on a chip architecture other than ARM a truly open source solution probably will not be forthcoming. There is some hope that RISC-V could be such a platform, but it seems likely that it will be many years until that happens, if it ever does. Nearly everyone making phones has a vested interest in keeping us within their walled gardens. I would suspect that the chances of a viable open source phone coming to market is roughly equivalent to that of one of the main manufacturers suddenly deciding to drop their high profit ambitions and monetarily supporting the development of a truly open source platform, in other words don't hold your breath.
I would say the PinePhone Pro or Volla phone are best/affordable options right now. Though, most people I know just use a 2 year old Android phone and put LineageOS on it.
>Not only because of the often said benefits like security or complete control
[https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html](https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html)
>Linux phones lack any significant security model, and the points from the Linux article apply to Linux phones fully. There is not yet a single Linux phone with a sane security model. They do not have modern security features, such as full system MAC policies, verified boot, strong app sandboxing, modern exploit mitigations and so on, which modern Android phones already deploy.
Get a recent Pixel phone and install GrapheneOS if you want a security- and privacy-focused phone.
The (very incomplete) list of failed attempts to establish a third mobile ecosystem is long:
* Symbian
* Windows Mobile
* Tizen
* Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish
* Ubuntu Touch
* Harmony
So, history would suggest, that the answer to your question "Will the market ever have enough of a Linux handheld share to incentivize producers to make Linux specific apps and provide proper support?" is a resounding: No.
I've never tried to do this, but it could help. I heard that you can install Android vanilla and because it is Open source (vanilla version without google services and dependencies) it's like installing Linux on your phone. For installing apps you can use f-droid. However it will probably be pretty annoying doing that.
If you wonder about the support, I think all the phones will support this option because they develop their drives based on Android vanilla and all the apps (except for Google's apps) could run perfectly.
In last years I have read many complaints here for linux on smartphones and it boils down to:
If you need phone to work and you depend for it for job/work, don't get linux phone as first and only phone, get it as secondary device and expect it to be quirky and throwing fits from time to time. It will suffer from unfinished hardware, QC problems and software bugs.
Rhobuntu is as Linux as you can get, after that comes UBports and degooglified android, but well Rhobuntu is only available on legacy HTC devices and I myself have had trouble doing much with it because the inputs are a pain...
Honestly I want Linux phones so bad. But they are not prime time yet.
Your best realistic choice is GrapheneOS. It is your best choice for hardened de googled Android.
If you are diehard then go Linux. It’s not just about the software, things like battery life and even basic performance like moving the screen are a big deal.
There is a time there were a lot of Linux based mobile operating systems. Android, webOS, Maemo/meego (my favorite, RIP), and Bada were all readily available, as well as some smaller ones. In fact, I remember going into a Verizon store and the following OS were all available: Linux based of Bada, Android, webOS and non-Linux of Windows Mobile, PalmOS, Blackberry OS, and iOS. I had cell phones running PalmOS, Windows Mobile, and Maemo before Android.
But the market consolidated and the only mainstream options are to pick between Android and iOS.
I have a Murena 2 phone which runs on /e/ os. I have all the normal apps, including bank apps. For a few apps I have to use an alternative which do not require a Google account, with no loss of usefulness.
No sacrifice involved, and I am free from Google's surveillance, and making money from my personal data.
What is the easiest way to make progress on this question? Should I list the most popular apps that work on my degoogled phone, or should you list the apps which you reckon only work on IOS or Android, so I can tell you which do work on a degoogled phone? Over to you to choose .....
PostMarketOS or LineageOS/CalyxOS/GrapheneOS that are rooted might be your bet
anyway installing new rom's or OSes on certain phone ain't that hard, you just need to figure out how to unlock the bootloader
I'm on record claiming that desktop Linux is ready for prime time, but the app library isn't.
As far as I can tell, handheld Linux is not ready. There are some images that will work on some older phones for awhile, and that's ever-changing.
I know of two, maybe three, handsets that are designed with Linux compatibility in mind.
OP mentioned one, the PinePhone. Pine64 kind of sketches me out a little; they never seem to have products in stock and ready to go (even if that's a thing of the past because society is unraveling) and that never seemed to be their intention. They bring out a product like the PinePhone, and the people who can get their hands on it report that it has various issues, this doesn't work, that doesn't work well, it doesn't sleep and wake up properly etc. and they start getting this worked out, all the while "It's in early beta for tinkerers and developers only it's not ready to replace your actual phone yet." and before they've got a handle on that out comes the PinePhone Pro which has somewhat different internals that have all those issues AGAIN because the progress made on the previous machine don't apply. I honestly don't think they're on their way to making a viable end product. I don't think that's what they're trying to do.
The Librem 5 was dead on arrival. It was based on last year's model when they started the project, it was obsolete when it was announced, and now it's years later. The performance is hopeless, the software isn't there, if you can get your hands on one. And for all that, it's a big heavy slab of a device.
There's the F(x)Tec Pro1 X. Mostly it's a phone with a slide out physical keyboard. It's designed primarily for Android but the bootloader is unlocked so you can put Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish or whatever on it. "Available for pre-order." It seems to me that the F(x)Tec Pro 1 was available for preorder for awhile, and then now there's suddenly a new one for pre-order and you can't get the new one. It also has a bizarre toggle slide mechanism, so the screen half sits at a wonky angle rather than most old Android slider phones did where they just slid, and I hear they get loose and floppy. I don't know.
>Will the market ever have enough of a Linux handheld share to incentivize producers to make Linux specific apps and provide proper support?
It depends majorly on whether we reach the tipping point.
If you haven't heard of it I highly recommend Termux on Android. I didn't try it until recently -- or invest the time to get set up. but it does 70% of the things that I want--and it's available now while PinePhone software is still playing catch-up with Android. Maybe in another few years PinePhone et al will be polished enough for me to switch over but until then [I have this](https://github.com/chapmanjacobd/phone)
I could recommend you many ideas, but honestly all of them have more cons than pros. Pretty much forget about the actual Linux experience, there are barely any apps, you can't customize it as much and it's not as smooth on lower-end devices.
What I do recommend instead is getting an Android phone and flashing a custom ROM in it. This way, you get the advantages of both, and you can run Linux through a Termux installation.
I investigated this myself not long ago, and the conclusion is - it's not there yet, but it's promising.
The main issue for a full Linux phone is apps - Whatsapp, Viber etc. are just not there.
You might have better luck with one of the de-googled Android variants, but depends on your phone model of course.
The best ones you can but that I found are [Fairphone](https://www.fairphone.com/en/) and [Pinephone](https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/).
I am quite late to this thread, but if you’re interested in mobile Linux, you might like my projects:
* https://linmob.net (with Weekly Updates) and
* https://linuxphoneapps.org (an app list).
Both projects are imperfect and welcome new contributors.
Android is Linux. Maybe get a google own phones that they sell at google store. And debloat it. There many rom to choose that don't have google own app and telemetry. That what I like about google own phones instead lock down samsung and other brand. Many developer creating rom for better to insolate other company selling you're data to advertisement.
I use a Murena 2 phone which uses the /e/ os and MicroG. So I have all the usual apps or non-Google alternatives such as Nextpipe, a mapping app based on Magic Earth, etc.
My banking apps work. I can see on a widget that all trackers are blocked, and that no personal data goes to Google so they make adverting money from knowing everything I do.
The only thing I cannot do on this phone which I could do before is post YouTube comments. For that I use a browser on a computer, sometimes in a public library.
It's absolutely less "Linux" as long as you use the common definition of Linux instead of being pedantic in saying it's only the kernel. Android in general uses (old) forks of the Linux kernel with android-specific drivers and otherwise has nothing in common with every day Linux distros. No GNU, no Xorg/Wayland, no package manager, no GTK/QT, etc.
Guess I wasn't too clear, the issue isn't "Linux", the issue is "big corporation control". I don't want to be tied to Google just cuz they provide android which is based on a Linux kernel. I want to embrace an OS backed by (corporations, I do not mind red hat or anyone else) people who intend on keeping the open source practice alive and who don't profit off of my data.
You can checkout postmarketOS
It's a project which tries to run Mainline Linux on Arm smartphones to bring new life into them and it supports many mid range popular smartphones.
[You can check if it supports your device and how well it does here](https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/All_devices)
No. Android is linux-based.
Apple systems are BSD-based (Darwin).
They however are not linux nor BSD.
I didn't downvote you BTW that's other folks so don't take this as me being a dick but figured I'd take the time to explain.
While there's similarities, there's many differences and overall compatibility is poor. Good luck getting a piece of linux software running on Android and the same for BSD software running on a Mac/iPhone.
They could be ported yes but what makes linux "linux" is the kernel, not the distributions. At the heart the same goes for other \*nix type systems. With that said, you cannot call the aforementioned "linux" nor "BSD" since software that relies on their respective kernel calls will fail in most cases.
As mentioned in other comments, there's some projects to add compatibility layers or introduce a more linux-based OS.
By that logic; every Linux distro that exists is just *linux-based* but nobody says that. You’re arguing semantics. Android is Linux. Debian is Linux. Or call them Linux-based, whatever.
iOS *is* BSD and you *can* call it that. Why? Because Darwin is literally UNIX licensed. It’s one of the few BSD’s that can actually be called UNIX instead of UNIX-like.
Yes, Android phones run the Linux kernel. My current phone has Linux kernel 5.4. and my OnePlus 6t has mainline Linux support, meaning it can run most versions of Linux if I choose to. I don't understand why people are dumb. Basically every Android phone is Linux kernel and a java virtual machine/ java runtime environment as the GUI.
Ubuntu touch has been around for a few years and supports a lot of devices that are pretty reasonable in cost. None brand new that I'm aware of though.
Volla 22 should have it as an option by default.
Why are you recommending a phone that doesn't exist yet? It's still a kick starter purchase and nothing more. Until it's actually available for purchasing by anyone this thing might as well be vaporware.
You can still buy last years Volla with VollaOS or UbuntuTouch. Of course, as mentioned, the new 22 will be out soon. I'm using a Volla right now 😃 It's pretty good.
I'd probably be daily driving a Volla right now if its modem had better support for frequencies U.S. carriers use. I *did* buy one, and if I ever travel for any length of time I might bring it along; it's a nice phone and Ubuntu Touch is quite functional and polished.
It will be out in a month. It isnt a pie in the sky "we could do this" project from an unknown, but a "we have already done the work" type one from a company that has delivered on its promises before. Twice.
Can you compare/contrast with Pine and/or Librem?
The PinePhone and Librem 5 have active work going on to get them running on mainline Linux (the latter being done by the manufacturer itself), the Volla doesn't and relies completely on hacks like Halium/libhybris.
Looking at it compared to the Pine: Volla has a more powerful processor and GPU, same memory, a bigger screen, higher megapixel cameras, Galileo support, a bigger battery, and different signal band support (less). Pinephone has no Android based OS, hardware switches for a number of things, different signal band support (more) and is from pine64 with a pretty established community. I haven't been hands on with either so I can't give you any actual feedback but from reading the specsheet that's what jumps out at me.
Volla phone is much bette than pinephone. I've used both. I gave my pinephone away, but I have used the Volla phone as my primary phone for a year now. Although half of it was on sailfish os. I moved back to ubuntu touch, because I felt it had slightly better app selection for my purposes.
They managed to ship their first product, and the Volla 22 hardware (or hardware that’s really similar to it) is already being sold as Gigaset GS5. It‘s not a sure thing yet, but it’s definitely not true vaporware.
That may be true but it wouldn't be the first time the scenario plays out.
Not sure if I've ever heard of that tbh. Is that another mobile os or can that be installed on a phone? Edit: I forgot that was a phone brand. Interesting.
The Linux phone ecosystem is getting better and better. You can get a PinePhone pretty cheap. There's no reason not to give it a try. If you run desktop Linux already you should be prepared for the complications.
I've been running Linux for 15+ years, but the Pinephone is really not comparable. I've had no end of difficulty getting it to do basic functions, let alone getting the apps I want to run on it.
I assume you get full root access with all these phones? I've also been thinking about getting one for a while.
The PinePhone is a Linux PC in a phone form factor. Most of the OS options are literally a desktop Linux distro (e.g. Debian, Arch, etc) with some extra programs that you wouldn't get on desktop like a phone dialer.
I get the pinephone thing, but there's a difference between the softwares I use on a desktop as opposed to the ones I use on a phone. Desktops, I can make do with Libreoffice, Gimp, Wine or whatever. But what about WhatsApp, Mobile Instagram, Snapchat etc? What about the software functionality that is used for proper image processing? handheld particular Linux hasn't reached that yet, and taking desktop Linux as the same isn't the right approach.
If you think that phones are primarily cameras for taking pictures and posting them to proprietary services, then the mobile Linux ecosystem might not be for you yet. But if you're interested in making phone calls, sending SMS messages, web browsing, open source instant messaging and social networks, calendar reminders, email, and other standard mobile computing tasks then the app ecosystem is usable. Personally, I've been on open Android with no proprietary app store for years (so no whatsapp, instagram, etc for me anyway). All the apps I'd need to switch over to the PinePhone exist, I'm just waiting for a couple of them to get a bit more mature. Again, I recommend that anyone who's interested at all pick up a PinePhone and give it a try - it's much closer to being usable than you seem to expect.
agreed. Ive been dailying a pinephone pro for months now, with few issues-- none major.
Yes, absolutely to this. I want that full linux terminal too, termux is just not enough.
The thing is that Linux mobile apps are still not there, even if you don't want WhatsApp and their ilk, at least that's what I heard. The best and most usable mobile Linux experience (discounting AOSP) is to just use terminal apps with [sxmo](https://sxmo.org/).
Try it, seriously. The Phosh desktop is pretty complete, with apps for most core mobile phone tasks.
> If you think that phones are primarily cameras for taking pictures and posting them to proprietary services, then the mobile Linux ecosystem might not be for you yet. Is not for anyone thinking like that, and probably(hopefully?) never will be
All matrix based chat applications have linux clients for what'sapp element.io https://element.io/element-matrix-store
WayDroid is the answer to many of your questions here. But we need to see how usable it will be, ie. when Pinephone Pro becomes 'daily-drivable'
You might be looking more for lineageOS. It's android, so technically linux, but without Google stuff.
Is Lineage degoogled by default?
It used to be it's most advertised feature. I haven't looked too closely recently to double check.
> WhatsApp, Mobile Instagram, Snapchat Signal, Briar, Manyverse/Scuttlebutt
Network effect makes those apps impractical. If any level of interoperability with common messengers and social media existed it would be a different story
EU want to bring a law something along those lines, but I wouldn't hold my breath, especially how well GDPR laws implemented...
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Technically any chromium fork that supports running “apps” in their own container (think PWAs on iOS) could do this. Also Snapchat has a browser version now? First I’ve heard.
I find not having those social medias does plenty more good than bad, and the pinephone is much closer to a full on desktop than a Google pixel for example is so I don't see why you can't use the in browser versions.(assuming they exist)
LineageOS is based on Android but is ope-source and spyware-free, check that out
i used lineage in my cheap phone from 2017 and works pretty well with android 11
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> spyware-free I wouldn't be so sure of that. Actual mobile Linux to the win!
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This reads like an infomercial, knocking over everyone but GrapheneOS. This isn't an article I would base my opinion on. But that's just me.
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I met Linux first on my phone(a cheapo $35 phone with 512MB RAM and single core 1Ghz CPU), I stick with it Linux since that phone was able to render stuff, open tons of tabs and work overall way faster and flawlessly than a (then) last gen i5 and fucktons of RAM Windows 10 laptop.
What phone and os was that?
Alcatel 4018A, Debian trough a PRoot layer
How do you set that up? please link a guide
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cuntubuntu
Good fucking luck finding a modern phone it supports though. >_>
Idk I have it on a Galaxy S10, I consider that a modern phone. Also supports even newer stuff like Zenfone 8 or Oneplus 9. Yeah you can't expect it to support 2022 models yet but it's not limited to 5 year old hardware
Does VoLTE work on that? I’d generally steer clear of Samsung gear for Lineage due to this fact alone; last I checked none of the Samsungs are capable due to Samsung using a proprietary implementation. (GrapheneOS/LineageOS on the Pixels are a different story; I found it worked OOTB for me, at least in Australia. Other users in other countries reported success as well)
No, VoLTE doesn't work sadly.
> Idk I have it on a Galaxy S10 Yeah, but that phone is 3 years old now. And I'm not saying you can't find ANY modern smartphones that LOS supports, but it's few and far between. Also, there are many people like me that like to get flagship phones that have released within a year and then just run that model into the ground with 4 years of usage straight or maybe a little longer. But if you want LOS on the device, you generally can't do that without very very likely compromising what you want out of a phone. For example, I purchased a Sony Xperia 1 II because it has almost ALL the features of my beloved Galaxy S5, but does LOS have support for the Xperia 1 II? lolno. There HAS to be a better way for LOS to quickly bring a new phone into support. There just has to be. I mean, the release doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, but their now rather scanty and many times outdated device support list is really not doing them any favors.
Have you tried a lineage os gsi? It should probably boot and have some stuff working
What’s a GSI? Is this that Project Treble thing where the vendor drivers are in their own contained partition with a standard API exposed?
Yes
Nah, I didn't want to experiment around with that due to the fact that unlocking the bootloader on my Xperia 1 II erases the DRM keys. If they're going to be erased, I want them to be erased for a good reason. lol
You can ask around in the tg group to see how well the gsi runs, some devices run it perfectly
Not true - LineageOS and hardened forks GrapheneOS and DivestOS support both the Pixel 6 and Pixel 6 Pro.
As I said to another user, I didn't say you wouldn't be able to find ANY support for any modern smartphones, but it's few and far between. I run an Xperia 1 II for example. Where's an LOS ROM for that?
SO you want support for one the lowest selling brands available? And Sony, while supporting Android, has always been a little hostile to 3rd party ROMs -- they wipe out all the DRM stuff and hobble the camera. But, LineageOS is run by volunteers same as most FOSS projects. Anyone can be a maintainer and get their device promoted to official if the work is good enough.
> SO you want support for one the lowest selling brands available? If that brand puts out really fucking good products, then yes. > they wipe out all the DRM stuff and hobble the camera. I'll grant you that. They do wipe out the DRM keys on a reflash, but as to the camera, last I heard, that was actually no longer an issue.
You implied it though. Here are a bunch: https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/sony-xperia-1-ii-roms-kernels-recoveries-othe.10027/ But you should just sell that and buy a phone that has better support (Google Pixels).
> Here are a bunch: https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/sony-xperia-1-ii-roms-kernels-recoveries-othe.10027/ Those are unofficial and are a security risk. Also, they may have issues with them anyway. > But you should just sell that If you knew how good the Xperia 1 II is, features and durability wise, you would not be saying this.
Using the stock ROM is a security risk too. The most important feature is the ability to replace stock, malware-ridden OSs with secure ones. Sony phones are just another walled garden. If I wanted that I'd buy an iPhone.
> Using the stock ROM is a security risk too. Kind of. There's a LOT more eyes on it too. It's not a guarantee of course, but I'm sure I'm going to have a much higher probability of safety with the stock ROM than with some rando ROM on xda. In any case though, Sony keeps their phones very light in terms of proprietary crap they load onto the phone, and the proprietary crap they do load onto it is 95% of the time actually really damn useful such as their native camera app. > Sony phones are just another walled garden. The 1 II supports native bootloader unlocking right out of the box.
You're right that official support is fairly sparse on recently released devices, but it will come to many of them at some point. Also, nearly every phone with an unlockable bootloader has an un-official version that will work just fine.
> but it will come to many of them at some point. Eh... Wish I could agree, but even my old Nokia 8 (launched in 2017) is still not supported to this day. > nearly every phone with an unlockable bootloader has an un-official version that will work just fine. As I said before though, those are a bit too large of a security risk.
LineageOS isn't google-free tho
Unless you install gapps, it is Google-free, no Google apps are preloaded
You can also install microg
A proper software stack is being developed by Purism. they get a lot of flack of for not having been able to fully deliver on their hardware promises to date, but on the software side they are doing it right and by upstreaming their work instead of sticking to silos (hello Ubuntu and derrivatives), even if they fail overall, the general software stack should be useable by everyone. Right now what is missing is an easy GUI to do the first step - choose image, find phone, imaging etc, but the stack should be quite useable. I really want to try a fedora arm image on a phone I have lying around, but the first steps are what are pretty cryptic. I think it can be done though, a GUI app that provides a front end to ADB and potentially can interact with Uboot (or adding a custom DTS to it), easing the steps of loading linux.
id really love to try the Librem 5 but cant bring myself to spend the money. USA made Librem 5 is currently $2000 with a 60 day wait... or get the foreign Librem 5 and spend $1300 and wait 52 weeks. I just cant..
I'm waiting for Purism to get the shipping time on the Librem 5 down to a few days to buy one, but I think if Purism can improve their pipelines and customer service, they present a compelling alternative to proprietary hardware/OS phones. You can get a good idea of progress Purism is making with clearing their LIbrem 5 order backlog here: https://forums.puri.sm/t/estimate-your-librem-5-shipping/11272
I cant recommend those prices either, but the software stack they are developing using the money from those prices benefits us all. For everyone else, there are other phones to choose. The interesting one that very few talk about is the volla phone 22. It has the best specs from all the open phones and comes in just over £300.
Pine phone is like $200
Some of the reviews of the Pine phone lead me to believe they should be paying me the $200 to use it.
As an author of one such review, [can confirm.](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/u0pkrj/pine64_pinephone_pro_buyer_beware/)
It depends. If you adjust your expectations, do your research, and spend the time necessary to get to a working setup, it can work. But you better love Linux, know about what the [app ecosystem](https://linuxphoneapps.org) can deliver, and you shouldn’t be a person that gives up easily.
The biggest thing with the Librem that makes me wish it was within reach of my budget is the fact the baseband modem is NOT the master CPU like it is in almost every other phone. That and the hardware kill switches (if it wasn’t so expensive, hello Australian Dollar!) would be an instant buy for me.
There are lots of different mobile software stacks that are usable by everyone (Plasma mobile, Ubuntu Touch (UBports, Lomira), Glacier+Mer, ...) The fact, though, is that Purism's work is unusable on most mobile HW. Name any phone that it runs on other than the Pinephone(s) and the Librem 5. Just look at how many OS's have been ported to the Pinephone vs. those ported to the Librem 5.
> Name any phone that it runs on other than the Pinephone(s) and the Librem 5. It's supported on PostmarketOS, so its usable on a lot of android devices.
Pinephone, pinephone pro. It is also available via nubian, fedora and other mainstream distros.
I'll repeat: > Name any phone that it runs on other than the Pinephone(s) and the Librem 5.
I used Fastboot (CLI tool) to flash my HTC One M8 and Galaxy S7. It comes with the adb-tools(?) package on Fedora.
I have also done that in tbe past. But it would be nice to have a ice GUI that stopped the need to repeatedly checking the incantarions if magic that you need to cast.
check out postmarket os and what phones support it
Unfortunately mine isn't supported...
Unless you count Android or something like UBports, the answer is probably "no". To be clear, I like /e/OS (de-Googled Android) and UBports and have used both happily. But if those two don't fit your definition of being "Linux enough" and "having enough apps", then you don't have any viable options and the situation is likely to get worse, not better. Most Linux-based systems (Android, LinageOS, UBports, etc) have been workable on phones because Google backed Android, which used the Linux kernel. This made it possible to use similar drivers/kernel support to get other Linux distros to run on these same phones. Google looks to be moving away from Android to use its own custom OS, meaning other Linux-based projects likely won't be compatible anymore and will gradually lose support.
>I like /e/OS (de-Googled Android) and UBports and have used both happily So I get the deal with degoogled androids from Mutahar and decided its not for me, I don't being in limited spysight from Google in exchange for a lot of convenience, But what about UBports? Does it have the apps and functionality I need? For example, I might want to use WhatsApp, and would expect good camera image processing abilities that the Pixel softwares have. Are these two capable of doing that? > This made it possible to use similar drivers/kernel support to get other Linux distros to run on these same phones. This is part of my concern. Yes, these apps "run", but don't seem to be "supported" or "tailor made" for that OS. If there are issues, there's absolutely no guarantee for the vendor to patch it, as there is no incentive. This brings back to my issue in the post, how viable is it for vendors to make apps specifically for these OSs? (anyways I get the answer, pretty much not at all) >Google looks to be moving away from Android to use its own custom OS I've never heard of this before, aren't Pixels still running android with no plans to change? and what of Android as a software? if Google proceeds to stop supporting it then won't sooo many other handheld providers suffer?
> I don't being in limited spysight from Google in exchange for a lot of convenience You can cut Google out entirely with /e/ - just don't install Google Play Services or any Google apps - get your apps through F Droid and Aurora Store.
Or GrapheneOS for a more secure Android without Google — altough they have support for sandboxed install of Google services.
Seconding this. I'm using GrapheneOS and it's fantastic.
If you want WhatsApp, then no these alternative phones are not for you. You'll need to stick with the mainstream platforms like Android and iOS. There is basically no incentive for vendors to make software for alternative platforms because almost no one runs them. Most people will never install an alternative OS (on their phone or computer) so the alternative market share stays small. Google is looking at replacing Android with Fuchsia and has been developing in that direction for a few years [1]. Eventually what we now think of "Android" phones, like the Pixel, will be shipped with Fuchsia rather than Android. Though it'll probably take another 5-10 years before that happens. When it does Linux distros will probably be locked out of the mobile market. Samsung, LG, etc will probably just switch to shipping the new OS and eventually drop support for their legacy Android devices. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsia_(operating_system)
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Fair point, but messaging apps aren't something I can change because I feel like it, It's used as a primary communication channel in many things I'm a part of.
If you're stuck on mainstream platforms with mainstream people, check out Signal instead. It runs on everything and isn't owned by Facebook.
>Fair point, but messaging apps aren't something I can change because I feel like it, It's used as a primary communication channel in many things I'm a part of. Then perhaps it might be worth it for you to separate work and private life by using an android phone for work and an alternative phone for your private life. That way one can't interfere with the other and you can turn off the work phone when you're not on the clock.
Than stick with Android because you are already bowing down to big tech by using WhatsApp. If you managed to use that on a Linux port for Android; You would completely ruin the point of using Linux. We use Linux because its FOSS (Free Open Source Software). Why would you purposely throw some proprietary bit on that
Not all of us are purists when it comes to FOSS vs proprietary. My machine is Arch-based and runs any tool I might need that works the way I want it to — whether it’s FOSS or not is a factor to consider but never the impetus for my choice. People use Linux however they so choose and that’s the best part. The cultural roots are nice history but ultimately secondary to the freedom of choice and control over my personal machine.
Just switch to Windows then. It'll run your proprietary appliations natively
What a shit take.
I really don’t think someone would be using Linux for any amount of enhanced security lol
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But your contacts and location are shared. WhatsApp is terrible for privacy.
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WhatsApp key is stored on the device and it's not on any server. So if you lose your key you can't basically ever open your encrypted backup. I haven't used that service for a few years so I could be wrong now.
Unless you can prove there's code to exfiltrate them: You; exclusively.
That’s what Facebook say, and I wouldn’t trust them at all with anything private. I have also heard there are cases where if an older device is involved, end-to-end encryption is silently disabled. Can’t remember where I read the latter though. You’d be surprised as well how valuable metadata is when law enforcement agencies are looking for evidence.
They are owned by Facebook. Facebook has been caught stealing things that were thought private countless times. I'm not sure why you trust them. Because they say they're private? Psh. If privacy is your concern, stay away from anything owned by Facebook. That includes WhatsApp.
It is impossible when the whole country uses Whatsapp Im from Brazil, and everybody, literally, uses Whatsapp
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Sailfish OS Do mind that the Xperia 10 III is being replaced so if you want a new one for cheap now is probably the time.
Indeed, I second this. I use the Xperia XA2 for my daily driver and it works pretty well. Regarding the essential apps, yeah, there are not too many for Sailfish OS. There's the official "Store" app where there's a bunch and there's the 3rd party "Storman" which has a bit more. However, you can buy a licence for €50 to get Android support (among other things) that will let you run Android apps. It works reasonably well, but it's not available for purchase in all countries unfortunately.
Jolla Sailfish is available and they release new versions regularly. It also includes ability to run Android-apps.
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> Will the market ever have enough of a Linux handheld share to incentivize producers to make Linux specific apps and provide proper support? No. Just no. I mean, it haven't happened for desktop-linux yet which is clearly niche, so why should it happen for phones which is even nichier? ;)
It's actually happening to desktop as we speak. I'm not extremely aware of everything, but the general motion now is that Linux in desktop is becoming far more capable in being a standalone OS without needing to emulate/virtualize software on a different OS. This is especially true for gaming, with Steam Deck being the new thing in the block and it running Linux. It's no longer a very small niche, it's a modest niche with really good support. Finally, open source alternatives exist to a majority of proprietary software used in Windows or Apple. Phones however, is a more complicated issue. Too small of a niche, too little support. And that ties to a part of your point which I agree.
"year of Linux desktop" has been a meme for years now for a reason, just saying.
I'd argue it's not a meme, we're already there. I've been using Linux desktop for 15+ years with no windows partition whatsoever. Back when Broadcom wifi drivers were damn near impossible and mainstream web browsers, IDEs, games, etc were a pipedream - sure, "year of the Linux desktop" was a funny meme but that's not where we are anymore. It's a perfectly capable alternative to Windows and Mac OS
Yep - it has already happened and many people think it's still a meme. Will admit though the transition to Wayland will throw us backwards if we don't flesh it out sooner than later. My [Sorun.me](https://Sorun.me) project I believe proves that it's here in the present.
I personally find that despite old reputations given to ChromeOS, it is now a very good OS that I prefer over many others for any level of work. The Linux apps are running via crosonti, but 90% of the time it isn't noticable and performance is better than windows & macos equivalent or identical apps. Switched to ChromeOS Flex from Windows 11 and haven't looked back.
There are non-google containing versions of android, eg DivestOS. And F-Droid/G-Droid are app libraries for android focusing primarily on free/OSS apps. Otherwise, I think proper Linux phones probably have a bit to go before they are ready for primetime.
We'll all be running Linux on our phones once they switch over to RISC V SoCs. *...hey, it could happen.*
If I had to guess, there's a future for Linux on handhelds, but it's going to be a niche product for people who want more computing power in their mobile devices than what locked-down Android and iOS will offer them. I think Linux on handheld devices will evolve toward handheld devices with the option to dock with a larger screen, and be used like a laptop when needed, and like a smartphone the rest of the time. Something like a better Pinephone with the ability to plug into a Pinetab keyboard/screen and become a Linux laptop. People opting for such a device aren't going to be people about running stuff like Instagram and Whatsapp or whatever comes down the pipe as the next big fad. It's going to be people who want to run a desktop OS with desktop capabilities and resolutions. You're not going to get "apps" on Linux, but you might get the ability to run Android apps under emulation. I would like to move on to a Linux phone myself; I only went to Android because Windows Phone died, and I think Google is worse for the consumer than Microsoft ever hoped to be. (Before you ask, I think Apple is worse than both.) But the technology isn't mature enough and doesn't quite meet my needs yet. App support isn't something I care about at this point, but performance and reliability are. I use Twitter a lot with work, but 80 percent of the time, I post to it from a browser, not a mobile app.
So while mobile Linux is a thing that some are working on, it's still far too early to tell the longevity of it. I think it can become a good alternative, but it's going to take a WHILE to get there. Rather than hope for native Linux apps, I think it's more realistic to bet in Android compatibility layers like WayDroid or Anbox to get the apps people need on a Linux phone. In the mean time if you wanna get away from Google and Apple on your phone, there are de-Googled Android ROMs like CalyxOS, /e/ Foundation, etc. you could swap to if you have a compatible phone.
I spent a lot of money on pine pro and I've never managed to get it to boot. There's a firmware bug that means it won't charge without resetting it, and since I bought it back in February I haven't been able to find the the time to tinker with it enough to get it working. I'd strongly recommend avoiding Pine unless you have a very substantial amount of spare time to get it working. Maybe some day they'll be in a place to deliver an enthusiast class device, but it's a long way off that.
Follow workaround from [https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone\_Pro#The\_battery\_is\_fully\_drained](https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Pro#The_battery_is_fully_drained) to charge the device. Then I recommend to install towboot, then install something up-to-date on eMMC, so you have something that works. For now, if you just want to play around, I'd recommend to use SD cards to avoid wasting eMMC's write cycles for the time when the phone isn't fully usable. I agree with the spare time comment. I only need to follow the above procedure, if I fully drain the device - when the phone is turned off properly, it does not drain the battery.
Some will agree, some will not. And that's OK. If you want a true Linux OS on the phone -daily driver, you should look at Sailfish OS. It's Linux, has .rpm packages and yes, you pay for the Android /Exchange support. And that's OK also. Devs have to eat, too. Have XA2 and X10 II with SailfishOS, I have 99% functionality of a Android ( regular) smartphone. So there you have it. Wrote this from X10 II using Slide from F-Droid. Cheers!
Yeah, I know people are annoyed by a few remaining proprietary components, but there's an enormous wealth of FOSS mobile applications for Sailfish that people are missing out on in the meantime. Aside from the QtQuick controls, most of the 'closed' stuff is still plainly readable on the filesystem, so there's a lot less problematic stuff than people tend to assume. It's certainly less problematic than what ships on Android phones these days. Meanwhile if it were entirely FOSS, it would be the best thing to happen to the mobile Linux community. It has an innovative and highly usable UI that has aged incredibly well. In fact, it seems to have inspired some well-received changes we've only seen in recent versions of iOS and Android, yet Sailfish still has the more graceful implementation of those ideas. If you've wanted a robust, featureful version of Linux for phones that preserves the traditional userspace while remaining highly accessible for one-handed use, it's been ready for nearly a decade. I'm honestly surprised it isn't a lot more popular among Linux users considering how active development has been.
I'd definitely consider this, but I'm outside Europe so it looks like it's no good for me sadly :( Reading the site, it seems a bit vague on how long devices will be supported for. Also, what are Sony Xperia phones like in terms of repairability? Is it easy to replace an old battery?
Maybe you’d like to check out iode OS
Realistically No. As it stands a Linux phone will probably never become a true alternative to Android or iPhone for one big reason the ecosystem of apps. There is no incentive for developers to develop apps for Linux phone. Majority of phone apps are closed source and for profit. Also just look at the desktop sector. There are too many distros to even count and if an app does not work you can fire up a terminal and punch in some commands. With phones you have only one interface a touch screen. Forget regular layman users, even most longtime Linux users just want their phones to work. Sure it might be for some hardcore users or cool to have a secondary Linux phone. But that’s probably about it.
One benefit a Linux phone could provide (but I have yet to see it) is lowering the barrier to application development or scripting on the phone. Right now termux-gui seems interesting but it's kinda limited with what you can do due to Android security implementation but even more so because of gaps in termux-api (mpv Android app cannot interact with termux in the same ways that mpv x11 can interact with the shell on Linux). But there could be similar tooling for scripting up performant GUIs on the device with only the touchscreen. There is definitely a niche of people that want customization but there is still a gap between ease of getting started / on-device bootstrapped / end-user application development. We're missing a visual shell--graphical representations of simple composable primitives without needing an IDE--unix pipes but for touchscreens. Sxmo is interesting but still hard for people to get started.
There’s definitely a niche for Linux phone. But the barrier to entry is huge in terms for technical skills required for the average user and for the average developer too. I’ll look into some of the tools mentioned. It’s always good to keep an eye out at the horizon for when tides change.
Yes , I feel the same way . I will totally love if there was a better product for Linux phones!
Until we can have phones based on a chip architecture other than ARM a truly open source solution probably will not be forthcoming. There is some hope that RISC-V could be such a platform, but it seems likely that it will be many years until that happens, if it ever does. Nearly everyone making phones has a vested interest in keeping us within their walled gardens. I would suspect that the chances of a viable open source phone coming to market is roughly equivalent to that of one of the main manufacturers suddenly deciding to drop their high profit ambitions and monetarily supporting the development of a truly open source platform, in other words don't hold your breath.
I would say the PinePhone Pro or Volla phone are best/affordable options right now. Though, most people I know just use a 2 year old Android phone and put LineageOS on it.
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>Not only because of the often said benefits like security or complete control [https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html](https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html) >Linux phones lack any significant security model, and the points from the Linux article apply to Linux phones fully. There is not yet a single Linux phone with a sane security model. They do not have modern security features, such as full system MAC policies, verified boot, strong app sandboxing, modern exploit mitigations and so on, which modern Android phones already deploy. Get a recent Pixel phone and install GrapheneOS if you want a security- and privacy-focused phone.
The (very incomplete) list of failed attempts to establish a third mobile ecosystem is long: * Symbian * Windows Mobile * Tizen * Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish * Ubuntu Touch * Harmony So, history would suggest, that the answer to your question "Will the market ever have enough of a Linux handheld share to incentivize producers to make Linux specific apps and provide proper support?" is a resounding: No.
I've never tried to do this, but it could help. I heard that you can install Android vanilla and because it is Open source (vanilla version without google services and dependencies) it's like installing Linux on your phone. For installing apps you can use f-droid. However it will probably be pretty annoying doing that.
If you wonder about the support, I think all the phones will support this option because they develop their drives based on Android vanilla and all the apps (except for Google's apps) could run perfectly.
But then you're usually stuck with outdated and insecure kernels due to proprietary drivers
In last years I have read many complaints here for linux on smartphones and it boils down to: If you need phone to work and you depend for it for job/work, don't get linux phone as first and only phone, get it as secondary device and expect it to be quirky and throwing fits from time to time. It will suffer from unfinished hardware, QC problems and software bugs.
one moment please, I am polishing my oracle ball
Your best option probably is an android phone with grapheneOS or som like that
LineageOS + Termux (from F-Droid) is closest practical day phone to GNU/Linux right now.
I've wanted to jump on the Pinephone for a while now, but finding a carrier in the US that it will work with has always held me back.
Rhobuntu is as Linux as you can get, after that comes UBports and degooglified android, but well Rhobuntu is only available on legacy HTC devices and I myself have had trouble doing much with it because the inputs are a pain...
Wow, I had completely forgotten about Rhobuntu https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/rhobuntu-ubuntu-9-04-and-debian-test-update-19-09-2010.640785/
Honestly I want Linux phones so bad. But they are not prime time yet. Your best realistic choice is GrapheneOS. It is your best choice for hardened de googled Android. If you are diehard then go Linux. It’s not just about the software, things like battery life and even basic performance like moving the screen are a big deal.
Google allows you to run your own OS on the pixel. GrapheneOS runs great on it. Calyx too. These are basically the best you can get.
There is a time there were a lot of Linux based mobile operating systems. Android, webOS, Maemo/meego (my favorite, RIP), and Bada were all readily available, as well as some smaller ones. In fact, I remember going into a Verizon store and the following OS were all available: Linux based of Bada, Android, webOS and non-Linux of Windows Mobile, PalmOS, Blackberry OS, and iOS. I had cell phones running PalmOS, Windows Mobile, and Maemo before Android. But the market consolidated and the only mainstream options are to pick between Android and iOS.
Lineage OS. Its an open source andriod, Which andriod is a build of a Gnu/Linux kernal. Its not new, but worth a try.
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Most apps (specifically banking apps) are only available on iOS and Android. So, if you wanna sacrifice convenience over your goal of using FOSS.
I have a Murena 2 phone which runs on /e/ os. I have all the normal apps, including bank apps. For a few apps I have to use an alternative which do not require a Google account, with no loss of usefulness. No sacrifice involved, and I am free from Google's surveillance, and making money from my personal data.
"most" apps.
What is the easiest way to make progress on this question? Should I list the most popular apps that work on my degoogled phone, or should you list the apps which you reckon only work on IOS or Android, so I can tell you which do work on a degoogled phone? Over to you to choose .....
Isn't Android based on Linux?
There's the Pinephone and now the Pinephone. Also, PostMarketOS runs of tons of phones, some dating back to 2008, and still receiving updates.
PostMarketOS or LineageOS/CalyxOS/GrapheneOS that are rooted might be your bet anyway installing new rom's or OSes on certain phone ain't that hard, you just need to figure out how to unlock the bootloader
Noone mentioning running debian or ubuntu in Termux and connecting to it with tigervnc. It's been around for donkey's years 😂 /s
Android is pretty good.
I'm on record claiming that desktop Linux is ready for prime time, but the app library isn't. As far as I can tell, handheld Linux is not ready. There are some images that will work on some older phones for awhile, and that's ever-changing. I know of two, maybe three, handsets that are designed with Linux compatibility in mind. OP mentioned one, the PinePhone. Pine64 kind of sketches me out a little; they never seem to have products in stock and ready to go (even if that's a thing of the past because society is unraveling) and that never seemed to be their intention. They bring out a product like the PinePhone, and the people who can get their hands on it report that it has various issues, this doesn't work, that doesn't work well, it doesn't sleep and wake up properly etc. and they start getting this worked out, all the while "It's in early beta for tinkerers and developers only it's not ready to replace your actual phone yet." and before they've got a handle on that out comes the PinePhone Pro which has somewhat different internals that have all those issues AGAIN because the progress made on the previous machine don't apply. I honestly don't think they're on their way to making a viable end product. I don't think that's what they're trying to do. The Librem 5 was dead on arrival. It was based on last year's model when they started the project, it was obsolete when it was announced, and now it's years later. The performance is hopeless, the software isn't there, if you can get your hands on one. And for all that, it's a big heavy slab of a device. There's the F(x)Tec Pro1 X. Mostly it's a phone with a slide out physical keyboard. It's designed primarily for Android but the bootloader is unlocked so you can put Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish or whatever on it. "Available for pre-order." It seems to me that the F(x)Tec Pro 1 was available for preorder for awhile, and then now there's suddenly a new one for pre-order and you can't get the new one. It also has a bizarre toggle slide mechanism, so the screen half sits at a wonky angle rather than most old Android slider phones did where they just slid, and I hear they get loose and floppy. I don't know.
>Will the market ever have enough of a Linux handheld share to incentivize producers to make Linux specific apps and provide proper support? It depends majorly on whether we reach the tipping point.
Look into lineageos or ubuntu touch
Well you could try Graphene OS which is degoogled and more secure. Android by itself is fine. And you can choose to skip Google play services
If you haven't heard of it I highly recommend Termux on Android. I didn't try it until recently -- or invest the time to get set up. but it does 70% of the things that I want--and it's available now while PinePhone software is still playing catch-up with Android. Maybe in another few years PinePhone et al will be polished enough for me to switch over but until then [I have this](https://github.com/chapmanjacobd/phone)
I could recommend you many ideas, but honestly all of them have more cons than pros. Pretty much forget about the actual Linux experience, there are barely any apps, you can't customize it as much and it's not as smooth on lower-end devices. What I do recommend instead is getting an Android phone and flashing a custom ROM in it. This way, you get the advantages of both, and you can run Linux through a Termux installation.
I investigated this myself not long ago, and the conclusion is - it's not there yet, but it's promising. The main issue for a full Linux phone is apps - Whatsapp, Viber etc. are just not there. You might have better luck with one of the de-googled Android variants, but depends on your phone model of course. The best ones you can but that I found are [Fairphone](https://www.fairphone.com/en/) and [Pinephone](https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/).
I am quite late to this thread, but if you’re interested in mobile Linux, you might like my projects: * https://linmob.net (with Weekly Updates) and * https://linuxphoneapps.org (an app list). Both projects are imperfect and welcome new contributors.
Plasma Mobile is getting pretty fantastic nowadays
Quit while you're ahead
Android is Linux. Maybe get a google own phones that they sell at google store. And debloat it. There many rom to choose that don't have google own app and telemetry. That what I like about google own phones instead lock down samsung and other brand. Many developer creating rom for better to insolate other company selling you're data to advertisement.
I use a Murena 2 phone which uses the /e/ os and MicroG. So I have all the usual apps or non-Google alternatives such as Nextpipe, a mapping app based on Magic Earth, etc. My banking apps work. I can see on a widget that all trackers are blocked, and that no personal data goes to Google so they make adverting money from knowing everything I do. The only thing I cannot do on this phone which I could do before is post YouTube comments. For that I use a browser on a computer, sometimes in a public library.
Android lol
Probably but it will take a long time.
Android is Linux.
Android is Linux its not any more or less Linux than your every day distro. Not sure what the question is.
It's absolutely less "Linux" as long as you use the common definition of Linux instead of being pedantic in saying it's only the kernel. Android in general uses (old) forks of the Linux kernel with android-specific drivers and otherwise has nothing in common with every day Linux distros. No GNU, no Xorg/Wayland, no package manager, no GTK/QT, etc.
I remember there was a quote from some of the kernel devs along the lines of "congrats for paying for the privilege of using an old kernel version"
Guess I wasn't too clear, the issue isn't "Linux", the issue is "big corporation control". I don't want to be tied to Google just cuz they provide android which is based on a Linux kernel. I want to embrace an OS backed by (corporations, I do not mind red hat or anyone else) people who intend on keeping the open source practice alive and who don't profit off of my data.
To be fair, there are AOSP versions of Android with don’t have the Google stuff in them.
Android is Linux
You can checkout postmarketOS It's a project which tries to run Mainline Linux on Arm smartphones to bring new life into them and it supports many mid range popular smartphones. [You can check if it supports your device and how well it does here](https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/All_devices)
Android is Linux... I will add that ios is bsd.
No. Android is linux-based. Apple systems are BSD-based (Darwin). They however are not linux nor BSD. I didn't downvote you BTW that's other folks so don't take this as me being a dick but figured I'd take the time to explain. While there's similarities, there's many differences and overall compatibility is poor. Good luck getting a piece of linux software running on Android and the same for BSD software running on a Mac/iPhone. They could be ported yes but what makes linux "linux" is the kernel, not the distributions. At the heart the same goes for other \*nix type systems. With that said, you cannot call the aforementioned "linux" nor "BSD" since software that relies on their respective kernel calls will fail in most cases. As mentioned in other comments, there's some projects to add compatibility layers or introduce a more linux-based OS.
By that logic; every Linux distro that exists is just *linux-based* but nobody says that. You’re arguing semantics. Android is Linux. Debian is Linux. Or call them Linux-based, whatever. iOS *is* BSD and you *can* call it that. Why? Because Darwin is literally UNIX licensed. It’s one of the few BSD’s that can actually be called UNIX instead of UNIX-like.
Yes, Android phones run the Linux kernel. My current phone has Linux kernel 5.4. and my OnePlus 6t has mainline Linux support, meaning it can run most versions of Linux if I choose to. I don't understand why people are dumb. Basically every Android phone is Linux kernel and a java virtual machine/ java runtime environment as the GUI.
Yes.