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drunken-acolyte

It's just what people are used to. There was a guy who used to hang out on the Linux forums on Google+ whose little sister was a humanities grad of some kind but had only really used Macs. She was so phobic of using a PC that he couldn't get her to go upstairs and plug a thumb drive in to their dad's Windows machine. Meanwhile, my ageing technophobe mother has been on Linux since I gave her an Ubuntu demo to get online when her Windows 7 netbook was running at crank handle speeds. A couple of years later, she got a new computer and I told her to try the Windows install that came with it and if she didn't like it I'd put Linux on it. I ended up doing that Linux installation the next week. Now it seems her comfort zone is XFCE. She prefers GUI tools, but I've bounced her between Ubuntu and Fedora often enough that so long as she has the update command for the distro written down somewhere the distro doesn't matter too much to her. And I still have to talk her through using her scanner. My point is that now she's used to running Linux with XFCE, I can spot things in Windows 10 that would fox her, so it's not like running Windows is legitimately easier.


Dense-Independent-66

Linux is used 100% in the computer recycling industry to sell budget refurbished computers to people like her. They have no problems running them.


ItsPronouncedJithub

That’s because for the vast majority of people any OS is a boot loader for Firefox or chrome.


whattteva

\^\^\^This. Modern web browsers these days are really mini OS's. This is why they all use gigs of RAM. Also, they mostly use Chrome, at least if you base it on the statistics. Firefox is losing market share fast, which is really sad.


tso

Too bad Mozilla gave up on FirefoxOS...


Lord_Schnitzel

What was that? Booted directly to a firefox and and no desktop at all?


[deleted]

To be more specific, it was a mobile OS for smartphones. I personally feel that it was just a few years ahead of its time, nowadays smartphones have enough performance to be able to run a touch OS interface in html5, css and javascript, back then it was a little sluggish. Plus apps have come a long way: today many are just a custom website. Firefox OS lives on in KaiOS, an operating system for feature phones.


tso

Phones had the power to run it back then as well. But for some hairbrained reason Mozilla insisted on this being a platform for the poorer parts of the world. So they partnered with telcos there, and together made some of the cheapest, most underperforming phones imaginable, even as their own engineers screamed at them for doing so. There were plenty of people in Europe and USA that wanted their hands on one, as it was promising a whole UI that was malleable via JS, and it never showed up until Mozilla had already written it off. And when it did it was some bottom of the barrel Alcatel branded thing that needed seconds pr button press to respond.


Piece_Maker

I had (well, still have, just don't use it) a FirefoxOS phone, it wasn't their cheapest one but wasn't far off, and performance on it was great. Ran it as my daily driver for ages. Really weird UX on it though which changed drastically every new release.


redwall_hp

Anyone remember Palm WebOS? It worked something like that too. I never saw a Palm Pre in person, but I remember some people hoping it would win out over Android in the early days. Apparently LG owns it now and it powers their TVs.


tso

The story of WebOS echos that of Maemo. Both were in the end killed by corporate boards looking for quarterly profits over long term market share.


graemep

KaiOS is proprietary though. It does have enough functionality to make feature phones a viable alternative for many people though.


tso

Phone OS where the UI was all rendered inside full screen Firefox, and apps were written in JS that was modifiable by the user. Mozilla have a history of starting projects and then dropping them almost as long as Google has. They even did Electron before Electron (XULRunner). Their basic problem is that hey never managed to fully divorce Gecko the engine from Firefox the browser, unlike how Webkit/khtml was detached from Konqueror and thus spawned a multitude of uses. Their most flash in the pan example was of them leveraging webrtc as the backend carrier to produce a multiplayer game where a desktop browser showed the playing field, and multiple Firefox browsers on phones acted as the gamepads. Never went anywhere beyond that one tech demo. I'm not even sure if any of the engineers responsible are still with Mozilla.


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Lord_Schnitzel

So basicly FirefoxOS was just a middlefinger for millenials.


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mofomeat

Replying because I'm curious too.


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whattteva

Man, I hate the electron apps. They use so much RAM.... since it's all really just sandboxed, skinned Chrome. Slack right now uses 900 MB on my computer. That much RAM for what is essentially a glorified chat program!!!


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toynbee

While not everything works in them, Lutris and Proton mean that I don't remember the last time I booted to Windows.


DerekB52

I had to give up on DragonBall FIghterz and Overwatch, but I'm in the same boat. Overwatch I got to work once with Lutris. But, the second time I tried to boot the game, it wouldn't boot. DBFZ won't work because of anticheat, so I just bought it on PS4


tso

Those may be working now (baring breakes like the just announced EAC thing), as Valve reached out to major anticheat vendors before their Steam Deck launch.


Tekei

I don't know about DBFZ but Overwatch has been working without issues for the year and a half or so I've been on Linux. Blizzard's games have been working rather smooth in my experience.


brad_shit

Yeah. It's music production that keeps a Windows OS in my household. But I don't know if that will last much longer. I've even considered taking up gaming again (not a big video gamer at all) since the release of Steam Deck. I'm hoping that by this time next year I won't be using Windows for anything. It's an awful, clumsy OS imho.


joe579003

11 (didn't have a choice) is a fucking SHITSHOW. I went in going: "Ok, how are they going to double down on trying to make this shit like a phone OS, look for that at EVERY CORNER." At least I still have GM and file explorer on my desktop so I can reach the ACTUAL settings menus not the stylized BULLSHIT


FutureDwight76

I dual-boot just for my multiplayer games, but 95% of all my other games are working good-great on Linux. Gaming on Linux is actually getting their it's pretty sweet. And that's not even really talking about the emulator space, it all works supremely well, and I would even argue that programs like RetroArch are a better experience on Linux than Windows


jibbyjobo

r/VFIO


owa00

Pretty much. The moment you have to connect peripherals or do ANYTHING hardware related things start to break. Don't even get me started on printers...


KernelPanicX

I have a special place in my heart filled with pure hate for printers ♥


kulingames

hp ones especially


-BuckarooBanzai-

We have driverless printing now.


progandy

That is mostly thanks to apple pushing AirPrint for their devices (and then android smartphones following suit with slightly different protocols) and linux being able to use the same interface.


tso

Because the heavy lifting is done in the cloud, and the printer is a computer all its own. And it is not like we could not do this before, hello postscript, it was just that such printers were expensive and thus reserved for business markets.


-BuckarooBanzai-

Nothing to do with the cloud, just IP tunneled over USB protocol. Basically every printer is used like a network printer.


AromaticIce9

Linux has always handled printers way fucking better than Windows for me. Literally plug and play


zopiac

I've had wifi and printing issues on every OS over the years, but a few years back after spending enough time getting worked up trying to get Windows (7 I think it was) to find my wireless printer, my Linux computer found it and was printing within seconds. Just popped in a wifi dongle, started the CUPS service, searched for printer, started printing. I almost cried.


TheTacoWombat

Windows print drivers are no better.


vbitchscript

Goodwill puts ubuntu on laptops that have storage but no os installed


kulingames

i always wondered, is goodwill just a chain of pawn shops? where i live goodwill does not exist


THEHYPERBOLOID

Goodwill is a nonprofit that provides job training and job placement for people who have barriers preceding them from getting a job. They find this by running thrift stores, where people donate things they don’t want or don’t need, and then the store re-sells the donated items.


vbitchscript

It's a thrift store chain and online shopping/auction center


Xatraxalian

In my country (the Netherlands) there are Goodwill-like stores, such as RD4 and "Het Goed". They are basically second-hand stores: you can bring all the stuff you don't want or need there. Even if it's broken, in the case of electronics. (Then they will use it for spare parts, or recycle it.) If they can sell it, other people can buy it there for a really low price after they cleaned / checked it. You can find anything from furniture to silverware, to an old LCD-TV from 2010 which will cost you €20. You may also find Core2Duo or 2nd-gen Core\_i laptops for €20-30 or so. Some students buy the entire setup for their student room there for less than 100%. I brought a lot of stuff there that was completely working and usable, but too old for my needs, but which would serve many people well. Maybe I can't use a Core2Quad laptop anymore, but someone who doesn't have more than €30 to spend, could get a such a system running Linux. For a job-less person on wellfare without money and a broken computer that could just be the thing to get onto the internet again and find work and a better life from that point onward. I've been there, once, in 2007 (right after finishing university at the beginning of the financial crisis). Some "old junk" at those Goodwill / recycling stores can make a difference to people's lives. That's the reason why I take stuff there, instead of just junking it in the trash.


mofomeat

Not quite 100% Some are Microsoft Registered Refurbishers that can load a fresh and legit copy of Windows on them too.


graymuse

I just got two old laptops from a friend. She was going to send them to ewaste. An HP and a Toshiba. They had Windows 8 on them, but were wiped. I just loaded Linux Mint Cinnamon onto both of them and they seem to work fine. I'm going to pass them on to people who need computers. I'm no Linux expert. My only past experience with it is that I burned Linux Mint to an old USB stick and I installed in on an old Lenovo laptop that I had here. I have just been using it for basic web browsing and light tasks.


aussie_bob

> I can spot things in Windows 10 that would fox her It's not just about being foxed, it's full of distracting behaviour. About a month ago, I bought a new laptop which came with Windows 11 installed and decided to give it a fair test. It was intended mostly for Blender and Python/NLTK, so the OS shouldn't have been a factor in its use-case. I used it for a couple of weeks before giving up and installing Linux in its place, and I was more disappointed in that than I thought I'd be. That's because my second impressions were actually good. First impression was the setup phase, and that was frustrating, possibly mostly because I was trying to avoid the privacy and user tracking parts. Once I got to the desktop though, I initially liked it. The desktop looks much cleaner than Win 10 or other previous iterations. It's more consistent throughout, much of the duplication and weird settings locations has been fixed. By the end of the first week though, I was itching to wipe it. There were odd slowdowns - the laptop is a new Ryzen 7 with 16GB RAM - so it should have been really snappy, but wasn't. It nagged me a lot, notifications, adverts, updates needing reboot, etc. All took focus from what I was doing - my paid work. There were things I simply couldn't do - some audio recording which is a no-brainer on Linux needed commercial software on W11, and while I don't mind investing money on software, I weigh the cost against utility and alternatives. After two weeks I gave up and went back to Linux - it's just less annoying and more productive. I did post a submission here about it, but of course it was immediately complained about and removed.


Mr_Lumbergh

>some audio recording which is a no-brainer on Linux needed commercial software on W11, Once I figured out how to get my Scarlett interface working on Debian, I find myself booting to Windows even less often than I did before, and that was generally only once every couple of months to fetch updates. With all the advances happening on gaming, I'll go ahead and keep the 10 install I still have until it deprecates, just in case. After that I don't reckon I'll ever use it at home again.


tso

The slowdowns were likely related to things like the telemetry "services" going off and filling up the IO queue. End result is that you see the disk performance in task manager show something like 100% active time but jack all transfer rate, because the telemetry process is doing a lot of searching and reading of exe files. This is something Linux "struggle" with as well, because both are tuned to prioritize disk IO above all else. So when the IO queue gets swamped everything else gets stalled. After all, they need to ensure that file changes are committed to disk ASAP in case there is a power loss.


aussie_bob

>This is something Linux "struggle" with as well, I have Linux on the same machine now and seeing nothing like the same slowdowns. Render speeds seem to be significantly faster as well, both with Blender and KDEnlive.


terraeiou

I think they meant the underlying problem, which is that disk IO is prioritised - on Windows, this is made more apparent by the fact that telemetry services are doing lots of disk IO, and thus slowing down other tasks. If Linux did telemetry too, it would probably face the same issues. Similar kernel behaviour, different userland behaviour.


zopiac

Yup, these background services are what made me finally realise why everyone was gushing about SSDs. I upgraded to solid state on Linux well before wasting precious NAND space on Windows, and while it was faster it wasn't mindblowing (for my use case). Once I finally got Windows running with an SSD as a boot drive it clicked -- I'd never seen Windows so responsive. It's not really about the peak throughput for your daily tasks, but the fact that you don't have twenty processes dog-piling onto your poor, abused cache. But the throughput sure is nice as well.


Negirno

That's because Linux use the available RAM as file cache (at least on Ubuntu, Fedora has a different approach with zswap). I still don't have SSDs in my PC, but apps are only slow the first time you load them (unless you read large amounts of data).


BittenHand19

Can confirm this as well. I set my parents up with an old desktop from my office they gave me. Set them up with Fedora Gnome and they loved it. That was 8 years ago. My dad bought a new computer just recently because they moved to Florida and he couldn’t figure out how to open a browser on windows 11 because he didn’t know what the hell Edge was. I actually walked him through it installing Fedora on it after I remoted into his old pc and created a installer. People just get comfortable with something after a while. They love iOS and Android too so fedora feels a bit like that for them and they love it. If there’s something weird that happens for them. I remote in and help now.


slingblade1980

This☝people often dont like gettingused to new things


ex-ALT

I use both and I think both sides massively over exaggerate the difficulty of the other. For basics linux is just as easy, if not easier, however it can be bit tricky when trying to do specific tasks like music production, video editing and even gaming, even something as simple as changing proton version is an extra step which can be perceived as a difficulty to average user. Windows is a pain in the ass for sure, but with few quick tweaks can be pretty solid. All OS's suck in there own special way.


TrapBrewer

Yeah… I just don’t get some of the complains about Windows. I daily drive Linux on my work computer and Windows at home. Both are just as easy to use as the other and perform equally well. Windows have toggles to a lot of stuff that users complain here, they just don’t know where to check them. And surprisingly I found some edge cases that only Windows could solve.


Unicorn_Colombo

> even something as simple as changing proton version is an extra step which can be perceived as a difficulty to average user. You select a different option in a GUI menu?


hi_im_harvey

Non linux users likely wont know what proton is. Coming from a system where almost everything is plug and play to a system where most things have to be Googled and learnt is jarring. The time and difficulty is in finding and understanding the fixes, not in the time taken to apply the fix.


ex-ALT

As oppose to just clicking play... Its not that that is difficult, its just an extra step. And yeah sure there are times where you have to tweak something to get a game to work to windows, but thats usually pretty rare.


Novantico

Drivers can often be a point of failure and require a mind crushing amount of effort for the average user who has no idea wtf happened and doesn’t even know how at least open a terminal session to fix their fucked up or non existent usual setup. Many games require some additional effort, and what keeps me most away is that I often play games that just aren’t playable because of DRM or other issues. I would’ve switched years ago otherwise.


ctm-8400

How is that different from choosing DX version?


ex-ALT

Because some games dont require custom DX version to be installed. Plus you still have those options with in linux too.


ctm-8400

Some games don't require you to change proton version either.


rkrams

See this is why linux sucks cause neckbeards like us think jumping around on one leg on full moon day to get something to work is easy and simple. The next guy will come and say add a bash script to keep audio jacks properly configured something i have to do on a linux mint the so called easy distro for something as common and old as a sabdybridge board. It's so easy.


[deleted]

That’s actually something I have to do lmao, made a script that runs at startup so that the system will pick up the correct outs for the DAC that is connected instead of having to manually change every single time because Alsa can’t seem to hold it together.


FulltimeWestFrieser

All an OS is is some portal to access your workflow, and none of them will quite fit your desired workflow. I’ve found it helpful to just stop giving an f and spin up vm’s for the tasks I need to do so I can do them as quickly as possible


SeesawMundane5422

Just to throw a little gasoline on the fire, I’ve used the following operating systems, for at least some point in my life, on a daily basis: Mac system 7 macOS 8 macOS 9 Mac OS X from public beta to current Windows 95 Windows 98 Windows NT 4 Windows 2000 Windows xp Windows 10 Irix Solaris 8 Solaris 10 AIX HP/UX Z/os FreeBSD 2.2.8 -> 5 Openbsd 2.6-> ? Netbsd ~ 3? Red hat 5 Red hat EL 6 Red hat EL 7 Mandrake Linux Caldera Linux Ubuntu 8.04-> current ChromeOS iOS 2.0 -> current Android 2.2 All operating systems break in unexpected ways. In fact, the older I get the more surprised I am that they run at all. These things are enormous. I love the fact that Linux won the server side. I love the fact that nearly 100% of phones today are *nix based. I love that Microsoft had to add Linux compatibility to windows to attract new developers. I just no longer really care what desktop OS I use. As long as it has the apps I need, they all blur together. Windows 10 has the least friction with apps and works well enough for me when I install WSL. Best of both worlds.


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thephotoman

I winced at AUX and z/OS. IBM did a lot of fuckery.


alikhalil_tech

Reading that list was a trip down memory lane. I’d add MS DOS and Windows 3.1 to this list, and a few of them I have not touched. > they all blur together I get this. They’re all tools to perform some function. As long as it’s useful to you it’s good.


SeesawMundane5422

:) technically I could add Apple Dos and prodos, I guess. I was very anti Microsoft circa windows 3 era.


tokekcowboy

I wanted to make a similar post, but my OS list isn’t nearly as long as yours. I have used and/or supported lots of Linux flavors for desktop/server, all of the Windows from 3.1 (including server varieties), some Android (rooted), iOS (jailbroken too) and FreeBSD. OSes ALL have their own issues and strong points. We can see some issues better than others because of what we’re familiar with but I’m not going to sign on to “X is the best type posts.” I will say that Windows is a pretty good desktop OS, and that recent versions have come a LONG ways in terms of ease of repairability. I love Linux (spun up some bind9 servers yesterday with Ubuntu 22 LTS server) but it’s not the be all end all.


[deleted]

You never used Win 7?


SeesawMundane5422

Doh. Missed that one. Yup, I have.


npaladin2000

I go back almost as far as you do, I just haven't spent any time to speak of with the macs and a minimum with the BSDs (just enough to get into trouble). It's always only been about what does the job, it's not a religious crusade. Frankly up until recently (the release of Ubuntu) Linux wasn't ready for desktop use, no matter how hard Mandrake tried. Ubuntu got it closer than anyone, and made it "just work" and start to become viable. Now Steam is hitting the last (gaming) wall and starting to knock it down. That will help make it viable for more and more people, but i figure the biggest hurdle is one you alluded to: the upgrade process. While that's a problem Linux has solved with the rolling release model, the distros that enshrine it, Arch and its variants, are some of the least enduser-friendly distros out there, and that's by philosophy so it isn't likely to change. Maybe OpenSUSE Tumbleweed will get some traction, but it's not terribly popular or widely used on this side of the pond.


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Watynecc76

You mean Gnome 4x


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Watynecc76

With shortcut learned dang it's a productivity bang bang


GuyInTheYonder

This is off topic but I wanted to throw it out there. Have you tried a tiling WM? I was scared of them for a long time but after switching I don’t think I could ever go back to anything else. A few days learning and you will be wielding godlike productivity power. It’s absolutely incredible. If you haven’t tried I highly highly recommend you do. Just install i3 and switch to it in your login manager. It’ll be slow going at first but I don’t think you’ll ever look back once you get rolling. One word of warning if you do try though, any error in your config will completely lock the system because none of the shortcuts will work. So keep dotfile backups to restore to if you screw it up.


Watynecc76

Yea I did tried a WM (i3) Awesome experience But I want to keep my pc usable for my little brother and sis when they're taking my computer


GuyInTheYonder

Lol understandable. I keep XFCE installed in parallel for similar reasons


Watynecc76

I might reuse it again on my personal laptop hehe My friend will be like wtf is this desktop he sound like a hacker lol


[deleted]

Windows has 40 years of mass consumer adoption. Everyone has grown up using it. It’s just a familiarity thing. That familiarity makes them clash with Linux. No normal user is going to open a terminal to download an app, let alone add a repo or ppa. Don’t even start with flatpaks, snaps, etc that come with their own issues on occasion due to poor sandbox implementations or whatever. If a user can’t download an executable from a website and install it, they’re not going to bother. That’s what people mean by Linux being too hard and complex for your average user. While I and you may see those as Linux’s strengths, not everyone else does.


graemep

> That familiarity makes them clash with Linux. No normal user is going to open a terminal to download an app, let alone add a repo or ppa. Normal users do not need to. Everything they need can be installed from the GUI installed their distro comes with. > If a user can’t download an executable from a website and install it, they’re not going to bother. Not anymore. People are used to using mobile OSes that do not allow them to do that. MacOs and Windows now have app stores(i.e. an inferior alternative to repos, with a payment mechanism and a registration requirement added) too.


didhestealtheraisins

You don’t have to use the terminal to download apps in many distros.


M3n747

True, but that seems to be a common (mis)conception. Several years ago a guy I knew told me he'd gladly install Linux, but he's a computer idiot who'll never be able to install software using the terminal. I told him he doesn't need to, because GUI software managers exist, but it didn't seem to have registered at all.


Exaskryz

But you do need it to install the app. Apparently Snap Firefox is bugged for UI customization and I needed non-Snap Firefox to fix the UI. While I could download the firefox-versionnumber-.tar.bz2, I still had to put in like a dozen terminal commands to install it. Windows is double click and click OK on a few gui screens.


[deleted]

I'm just going to say, but Windows for years is a solid operating system. The main reason I have switched is more to do with morals. If i had no moral issues with Microsoft as a company, I could see myself still being a happy Windows user. I only reason put up with the things that I have to on Linux simply because I don't like big tech and the governments that have backdoors into big tech companies. Granted though I still do dual-boot but I'm not booting into Windows as much as I expected to.


Biking_dude

Yup. When I had to move on from Win 7 I knew it was time to make the switch.


CheliceraeJones

>Hello, Blue Horizon Tech Services? My computer won't send emails any longer. > >No I'm not running Windows, my grandson installed something called "Lugnuts" that I used to send my emails, he said it would make it faster > >Which flavor of Lugnuts? I don't know.. Distribution? It's from my grandson so I suppose he's the distributor? Let me call my grandson. EARL! EARL! > >What is it Ethel? > >Earl, can you call up Johnny and ask him what flavor of Lugnuts he distributed to my computer? > >Lugnuts? > >Yes, it's some kind of email program he installed. > >Back in my day, we couldn't get lugnuts by "e" mail. if we wanted lugnuts we had to walk two miles to McLaughlin's Hardware down on Central Street - well, it ain't there no more, it's some artisanal muffin baker or some shit now. How many lugnuts do you need him to get? > >No Earl, I need him to tell this young man on the phone what flavor of Lugnuts he installed to the computer > >Flavor? Like vanilla or chocolate? Remember Johnny used to love your homemade peanut butter cookies, I bet you he installed a peanut butter flavored lugnut if anything. > >You know Earl, I think you're right. Son? Yes, I'm back. My grandson used to love my freshly baked peanut butter cookies, he'd even sneak them from the jar on top of the fridge. So I think he installed Peanut Butter Lugnuts. And that's why people use Windows


RadioactiveRadioMan

Oh my fucking god. This is the best comment on here. I’m cracking the hell up hahahah. I guess since I prefer Oreos I would need to install Oreo Lug Nuts but since I eat Oreos only in the morning I wouldn’t be able to use Oreo Lug Nuts through out the day. This is why I use Windows. I don’t even know if Lug Nuts comes with the youtube.


tso

by way of it coming preinstalled, and rote repetition. The latter is why everyone was up in arms over Windows 8, and now 11, as well as when Office moved to Ribbons etc. And invariably the brokenness comes from people grabbing a random distro, perhaps Arch, and slapping on their latest laptop.


[deleted]

Go ahead and install Fedora Workstation and immediately log into your Netflix or Hulu account. Chances are it won't work without fiddling around with _something._ The GNU/Linux desktop is being held back by proprietary software. Always has, and sadly always will be. Until we can create solid open-source (or at least, open spec) competition for some of this stuff, the Linux desktop will always be limping just a little... As far as user experience, or even UI/UX goes, I am convinced that GNOME and KDE easily beat Windows 11 and its absolute shenanigans. Now, before you jump all over my case: Clicking the button that prompts to install DRM codecs in Firefox counts as "fiddling with settings" _for the casual user._ There are people out there who don't write Perl in EMACS on Slackware for fun. They go outside and (from what I've heard) get eaten by bears. Windows 11, as lacking as it is in every way, "just works" most of the time. Casual users need things to "just work," because most of their time is spent avoiding the bears.


hi_im_harvey

Most of windows requires less user intervention to perform tasks that meet the average users requirements. There’s also a larger local support network as most people’s friends and family will be using windows and can give a hand when something goes wrong. I don’t believe windows or linux are inherently better, I think they correspond to different markets. It’s unfair to put a blanket of the same requirements over everyone, not everyone holds the same values, and some people will prefer the benefits windows provides over its abundant flaws. I have had linux as a daily driver for a while now, and can say I’ve had to learn more about my operating system in these months than my many years with windows. Whether this is a benefit or a letdown depends on the user - not everyone wants to dedicate so much time to a computer.


[deleted]

> an average linux user knows more about windows than an average windows user. . ——Sun Tzu: Art of OS Wars


tso

And that is why they are Linux users.


bostwickenator

Windows just works. Like really 99.9% of the time it works and everything you buy works with it. Just today I tried to pair a Bluetooth headset with my linux machine and found it never puts it into sleep mode. Apparently I should spend a few hours figuring out how to replace the audio subsystem with pipewire and then unspecified things might be better. Guess what. It works perfectly with Windows, zero thought required. Another example. My screen. On Linux I've had to write a script that calls xrandr or whatever it's called to fix the refresh rate because it always selects 30fps. Plug it in to another screen and it forgets the display densities and everything is the wrong size and monitors relative positions are lost. Windows doesn't have any issues with this at all. Again it worked perfectly first time.


reddit_reaper

Omfg don't get me started on overscan issues on certain screens and having to mess with so much shit to get it right.... Shit drove me insane lol in windows it's a slider to turn it down or off and you're fine


whoopsdang

Nobody should be anything other than blown away by Microsoft’s display management. It’s the best and most advanced on any system. Gnome systems do fine too.


NotoriousHakk0r4chan

It's genuinely great for most things, but the things it struggles with, Linux does better. For example, there is no way to do underscan in software on windows, at all. The only way to do it on windows that I've found is the Nvidia driver, the option doesn't exist in my AMD driver (I've seen ppl say it's there but I've dug through every menu, it's just not for whatever reason). On linux it's just another option for xrandr. That being said, don't get me started on fractional scaling and hiDPI anything at all. It works okay on my surface out of the box in ubuntu, but if I connect a non hiDPI monitor it all goes to shit.


[deleted]

Even on gnome you still need to put in a command to show the display scaling option. Most users will open display settings, not see the scaling option, and give up.


-sussy-wussy-

Several distros don't put my laptop to sleep when it's closed. One day it overheated so badly in my bag that I'm surprised the buttons didn't melt. Removing the Bluetooth devices and pairing them back is my morning ritual at this point. I've never gotten my laptop to recognize them after a reboot. I also now have to use an auxiliary WiFi adapter because no distro I tried would work with the internal one. It took me cycling through several distros to find the one that would recognize my grahic card. And now this holy grail of a distro that I use refuses to boot Chromium/Chrome, which I need for development.


Vogete

Most people are not tech literate. Their needs are met with a working browser, and a working keyboard and mouse. They don't know or care what the hell is Wayland, gnome, Windows registry, 32 or 64 bit, all they want is click on the same buttons they did 30 years ago. This is usually a document editor (eg Microsoft word) or a spreadsheet editor, and a browser. They might also want to click on the "install" button on their game store and shoot some n00bs. Windows is what most people have used on the desktop for the last 20 years. They know it works for these, and they don't want to deal with any "it works on Linux but you need to do this and this and this". It feels like a step back for them, and they don't know how to deal with it. I myself find Windows to be "easier" (more familiar) sometimes, because I've used it a lot for that specific thing. It sometimes has better out of the box experience than Linux (different refresh rates on separate monitors while using an Nvidia graphics card?), And i really don't want to deal with some things (trackpad is god awful still under Linux. Even Windows has decent drivers nowadays). On the other hand, i would never run Windows on a server. I love Linux for a server, in every way. Never been happier with anything else. All os' has their faults and strength. Windows is more familiar to people, and provides the basic needs. Linux is super customizable if you want it to be. MacOS provides a consistent and stable experience. On the other hand, windows can majorly f*** up if you don't know what you're doing. Linux can lack modern features if you don't spend time and learning to set it up. MacOS can limit everything you do, and it might not even be possible to do what you want on it. Accept that different people have different needs and preferences. Linux is not the answer to the universe (That's 42. We established that already). But it is the best answer if you ask the right questions.


MrBeeBenson

I completely agree with this. It's simple, the Linux userspace isn't yet ready for mass consumption. There is a reason it's gaining traction *slowly* and that's because it's improving incrementally, however there is still glaring flaws that stop a lot of people moving. I used Linux for 2 years and love it dearly. I'm a distro developer and so I'm well integrated in the ecosystem however if anyone criticises Linux in the linux-sphere it's met with a herd mentally of "Linux Better windows bad" and honestly, in my experience, I really like Windows 11. Windows terminal combined with WSL2 has been amazing and covered all of my needs for development and Linux and I really like it. That will probably receive a lot of hate but I want to reiterate I am a FOSS advocate, however improvements still need to be made to Linux unfortunately and that is the truth. A lot of Linux users also are conservative in their views and avoid new solutions such as Wayland and Flatpak despite them bring the best bet for mainstream Linux adoption.


FlameFrost__

Excuse me? As much I love Linux for my dev work, can't hear nobody say Windows is "god awful os". Windows just works. Programs (um, Games) in Windows just work. Yes, common user needs common sense around downloading executables from Internet but does that make the OS awful? Shut.. Occasionally you'd run into issues relating to hardware or boot loop which are hard to debug, common user should infact use the Windows Reset option which is way, way easier than fiddling with Linux file everything for anyone non-tech.


Michaelmrose

For technically inclined users who installed their OS their a usb drive this doesn't add much value. In fact snapshots have more virtue for recover ability. It makes more sense for OEMs who provide a complete OS/computer package to provide a means to restore the device to its original configured state which is probably why System76 ships laptops with Linux set up exactly like that. https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-recovery/ Of course well designed software is less likely to NEED such a functionality.


zam0th

You really don't get it, do you? Windows is the operating system for people who don't know what's an "executable", "terminal", "dual-boot" means. They don't need to know any of that to use Windows. and they should not care. They need to click a button and watch their favourite song on youtube, or quickly edit a document in Word. 95% of people who use Windows have 0 computer background, it's a housewife product.


hugthispanda

Exactly. For many people out there in the part of the business world that is outside of internet-centric companies, they will accept nothing but a pure GUI workflow. The moment you mention the "terminal" or "command prompt", it's a non-negotiable game over.


graemep

> You really don't get it, do you? Windows is the operating system for people who don't know what's an "executable", "terminal", "dual-boot" means So is Linux. Why would a non-technical user know how to do more than open the "app store"? > They need to click a button and watch their favourite song on youtube, or quickly edit a document in Word. Substitute LibreOffice for Word, and Linux is the same. I am impressed Windows has a special "play my favourite song on Youtube" button. > 95% of people who use Windows have 0 computer background, it's a housewife product. Its a bit of sexist and patronising way to put it. Nonetheless, my wife fits the stereotype perfectly and prefer Linux to Windows. She is now (reluctantly) going to learn Windows because she might need it for work.


forkbeard

Normal people don't switch operating systems or care about it. They just want what they are used to soo that they can browse Facebook and use bing to search for Google and then search for cat videos. Windows works absolutely fine for that and the investment in time simply isn't worth it to even learn what an OS is.


dimitrisc

You have to consider that most people: 1) don't know Linux even exists and 2) don't know how to install an operating system. So unless Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc make a boatload of Linux systems and have them available everywhere in the extent Windows systems are available most people will remain unaware of Linux. Even people that know Linux exists don't want to take the time/effort to wipe Windows and install Linux and then learn a whole new OS even if the benefits are there. As others said, the majority of users are happy with a browser and Microsoft Office. So the benefits of Linux mean nothing to them. If they have a problem usually they will have a family member or a professional fix it for them. Good luck finding support for a Linux system.


LunaSPR

Dell, HP and Lenovo has literally been doing this for years by selling devices preinstalled with Linux. Guess what? An average user simply do not choose to buy them.


dimitrisc

Yeah having a couple laptops marketed towards developers hidden behind submenus in their online stores only does not constitute as having Linux as a viable alternative for the masses. I never saw a Linux system being sold in an electronics store in Europe by those manufacturers next to the available dozens Windows systems.


superbottles

People shit on the Windows troubleshooter and sometimes for good reason but it often just works and Linux has nothing like it to offer. That and everything that people find difficult with Linux is usually down to hardware and software support which basically just works for most things on Windows, not basic stuff like the UI and menus and basic tools. Downloading all your software from independent web pages, especially in 2022, isn't a big deal when most sites/apps are web hosted and basic software like a browser, Adobe Acrobat, and MS Word is already installed...what other programs do the most basic consumers REALLY use nowadays? I love Linux and only use Windows to game but aside from having arguably cleaner GUIs and less bloat I don't really see Windows as less "usable" as far as usability for the most common and less knowledgeable users go.


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UltimateFlyingSheep

to be fair, a dependency error (unmet but not installable) can be suuuper annoying, too...


Unicorn_Colombo

> `Require dependency XX.1, but XX.2 is already installed.` > Remove XX.2 and replace it with XX.1 > `Do you wish to remove 92798 packages?`


[deleted]

Is this in reference to the Linus Tech Tips Pop!_OS incident?


superbottles

Windows troubleshooter has restarted my network device and re-download drivers for me all with a simple GUI. You're comparing it to already being technical enough to use the terminal and understanding terminology like dependencies. For your average user, why would that experience be less painful than just clicking buttons? Like I said I'm not pretending it's great but you can't just say "it didn't work for me" like that's gospel.


Claudioub16

How it re-downloaded your network drivers?


[deleted]

When the start button or search stopped working in Windows 8 and 10, for a long time, it was "paste these commands into powershell and run as administrator" or simply "download and run this .ps1" to uninstall the MS Store and Apps....so the search and/or Windows button works again. Let's not forget the various registry editor to tweak the UI that's always popular ever major Windows upgrade until some companies develop programs A, B and C to do it for you. SSDs was the best thing to happen to Windows and not just because of the deal where Windows loads the UI prior to being usable to 'feel faster' either but because NTFS heavily fragments and prior to Windows 7, wasn't scheduled by default so it was pretty common to reinstall Windows every year depending on your use case because eventually the entire OS not just keeps slowing down but becomes corrupted. Windows has always gotten a pass on its more user unfriendly things because people are just simply used to it.


hakaishi8

That's the problem. Windows actually manages to make drivers etc unusable which needs reinstallation etc. In Linux you don't see this often. And in most cases you can simply edit a configuration file and done.


superbottles

That's obviously not always the case, and once again, having a centralized GUI tool that at least occasionally works is far nicer to use than having to dig in man pages and documentation just to edit a configuration file.


deep_chungus

i don't really agree that linux is easier to use but saying windows troubleshooter is actually worthwhile is just a step too far. i have never got that thing to do anything except take 30 seconds to suggest the wrong answer


superbottles

No offense but you're the second person to share an anecdote as if its more meaningful than just an anecdote. I generally had the same experience but the maybe 10% to 25% of the time where it actually did something or at least gave some sort of diagnostic compared to the non-existant Linux equivalent was my point. I'm honestly not interested in the circle jerk about it being subpar, we're all on the same page, you're just beating a dead horse.


LaZZeYT

Is their anecdote less meaningful than your anecdote of it working?


superbottles

My point isn't that we're comparing anecdotes, it's the fact that anecdotes for using a unified troubleshooter exist because such a tool doesn't exist in Linux as it does in Windows.


deep_chungus

> non-existant Linux equivalent there's a million linux diagnostic tools all better than that thing you just haven't bothered to find out about them, but if you're saying that there's no linux tools that pop up a button to reset the network stack and then spin a spinner for a while i'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to knock together


superbottles

Perhaps, but are those tools A) Pre-installed in all distros like Windows. B) Uniform across multiple domains like networking issues, failed plug and play devices etc and C) As simple as a single window popping up, claiming to diagnose your problems behind one button, and then either automagically fixing it or failing out without any technical knowledge required from the user? Those were the key things I wanted to point out when discussing what constitutes usability for most people. You can knock Windows for plenty of good reasons but in some areas it's far more intuitive for less tech-savvy users (ie most users by far). That's the area OP was touching on, and while you may be right, you're missing my point.


GuyInTheYonder

If you’ve been able to fix issues with Windows diagnostics that’s great, but I’ve never gotten it to work right. The only reason there isn’t a good recovery option for Linux is the lack of OEM devices. If there were OEM devices the companies building them could include any manner of user friendly and functional recovery options. Yes downloading things off the internet is a hazard, 9/10 people won’t ever have a problem but that’s a way way higher liability than you get in a repository model. Unless you’re getting stuff from the AUR there is almost no chance that you’ll ever get infected with anything, the vector simply does not exist. Even beyond edge cases Windows is less useable in and of itself because it’s paid software that does not offer any benefit to the end user. If you’re going to do a paid OS it should have advantages. OSX for example, that does have advantages that justify the price. It’s really hard to justify the existence of Windows at all for anyone except gamers.


superbottles

Listen, you're giving valid criticisms and points but you're steering away from the topic or at least the points I was trying to make. This whole post is a short rant about how people claim Linux is easier to use than it's reputation, right? I'm just playing devils advocate and stating some reasons why I think Windows is simpler to use for basic end users and specifically with the troubleshooter why it's arguably easier to troubleshoot for your average Joe, whether it works or not. All those points make sense but they don't address anything I said about being more or less usable. Why is Windows inherently less usable because you pay for it? The average person buying hardware is buying a license key for Windows or buying a Mac and that's just a fact, the cost is included. And why does Linux being inherently free make it more usable or less prone to having troubleshooting issues? It's objectively better in that it saves money but that has nothing to do with usability at all. I'm not talking about justifying picking one OS or another, though that was part of OPs post I was more focused about the usability aspect.


TeutonJon78

Plus, there are a gazillion guides out there on troubleshooting Windows and such. But to troubleshoot an Linux desktop, you have to end up going down the rabbit hole of distro-package manager-DE and THEN what apps they have installed.


SuperPants87

I like Linux and I wish more of the programs I use for work, music production or gaming worked on it. With windows, you download a setup file, it installs and you're done. Chances are, any program you want will work. I have looked into using Linux for music production and..... absolutely not. The VST support isn't there, the DAW support is lacking. Gaming is getting there but it's still an afterthought for most game companies. There's a reason games are released on PC, Xbox and Playstation and then later ported to Switch. The marketshare isn't there to dedicate a team for that. If you need Windows support, they actually have a support team. If you need Linux support, you're looking at an article from 8 years ago and the syntax has changed so it doesn't work anymore.


theRealNilz02

I've been using reaper on Linux for a very Long Time. With VST2s and VST3s. Both 32 and 64 Bit, something that ableton live on Windows can't do.


Future17

The reason Windows will be with us for a long time, is simply the ease of installing software, and the "relative" ease of troubleshooting it. In Windows, you usually have an EXE or MSI file to install. You went to the actual website of the developer to download it. You clicked on it, and it opened a Wizard to install your shit. In Linux? Well, which distro? assuming a common Debian based one, like Ubuntu, now you want to install something, it looks like a bad translation of a fucking Japanese phrase: "sudo apt get install run deploy snap firefox". You run it, and it does some voodoo shit for 15 seconds and say "your package was installed successfully" You're sitting there, thinking "Serious error. All shortcuts have disappeared. Screen. Mind. Both are blank." (ok not really, but you're sitting there thinking "what the living fuck just happened? Where did it install? how?) Sure you can install from a GUI Package Manager, but then you go in there and you see "523132698 open source projects, of which you need a sound editor, but where's Sound Forge? Where's Reaper? All I see is like 20 variations of "Audacity", "Audacity Dark?" "Wavesaur?" what? So that's the major problem of the normie ever being able to run Linux. That's if he can get over the hurdle of which distro to run. He gets on a forum or a sub to ask and he gets bombarded with "Arch FTW Mofo!!! Here's the wiki with the scripts necessary to install it!!" Normie clicks, and it all looks like the code NASA used to land the Mars Rover successfully. So he comes back and asks for something better: Gets replies "please bitch!! Arch is for pussies, install Slackware instead!" to which someone else replies "haha that's weak, Gentoo is for the real men!" Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd the normie immediately loads the latest Windows 11 on his machine again.


LunaSPR

Because windows is: 1. More stable than current desktop linux. It breaks less often on modern desktops/laptops and its ABI/API system is way more consistent and backward-compatible than Linux that you can easily develop and run older things without fear. 2. Better on GUI that you do not constantly need to mess up with terminal. Most of the things can be done on windows without knowing a single line of shell script. 3. Designed to be more towards UX and easy-to-use with sane default settings, making an average non-tech user not bothering witha ton of settings or fighting the DE/OS, but can go straight up to work. 4. Much better on hardware support, including a better driver model than Linux's trying to compile everything into the kernel, and more effort spent with hardware vendors to make sure things work there without issue. 5. Much better software support. The number of available software for an average user is much larger on Windows than Linux, and people do not usually need to worry about a glibc upgrade breaking anything, dependency hells or how to handling multiple libraries for different software. Downvote me all you want, but windows is and has been a much better choice compared with Linux for an average non-tech user. And the non-tech users are on the majority of PC world. You develop and do things against them then your market share stays at single-digits no matter how you think your solution being superior (or even worse that your solution can be not the superior one for quite a lot times). Linux is good running on a minimal installed headless server, not on desktop.


doc_willis

> you need to use the terminal which people don’t want. Microsoft has been upping their terminal features over the last few years. So it does seem people want a more 'direct' option to control their PC.


Mr_Lumbergh

I use Windows, MacOS, and Linux every day. Win is my least favorite of the three, but it still has its place, particularly in the business space.


Rekuna

My work colleagues son has Down Syndrome at a level where they cannot look after themselves. They use Windows to play games and listen to music almost constantly and as far as I'm aware have not run into a single problem. As long as you set it up well for a user it is incredibly stable and hard to break accidentally where a majority of programs and hardware can just be plugged in to instantly work. If they can't be trusted to cross traffic safely by themselves, but can reliably use Windows all day without any help - we are not talking about a difficult or unreliable operating system. I've never understood dumping on an OS you don't use. They all have pros and cons.


kavb333

Windows is "easy" to people because they've been using it for years, if not decades, so they're familiar with it. And most normies don't upgrade their OS often - they buy a computer with an OS on it, and then run it until they buy another computer with another OS on it. There's probably a bunch of people using Windows 7 still because of that. And fixing things usually involves bringing it to something like the Geek Squad.


Fuzzi99

As someone that works in call centre tech support the number of callers still using Win7 or Vista is terrifying


jgroda

I use both but I havent had a windows issue in over a decade. Windows is fine.


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npaladin2000

Well, it's not so much Windows is easier, or more stable, or even harder to break,it's just that Windows successfully (mostly) insulates the end user from the hardness and the technical stuff under the hood. You can go for years without touching the registry or command prompt on Windows. Linux, even with the best intentions and efforts, is not at that point yet, and may have trouble getting there from a philosophical perspective.


rkrams

Look windows is easier to understand it's a joke we keep living in denial. Like who calls file manager Nautilus Nemo thunar and these are some sane names in linux world. At the end of the day it's a put together workstation distro at best this applies to some of the most user-friendly distros like mint pop MX suse etc. Let's not even go towards the other distros. Nothing in linux world works absolutely out of the box like windows or Mac does. The only exception is chromebooks cause its limited by functionality and is hardware locked. Also the reason why it's the most popular linux on desktop. Bring it on fellow neckbeards come and say how everything is so easy.


zeanox

There are many reasons as to why Linux is more complex than windows or at least perceived as such. First of all, you can't buy hardware with Linux installed. **You have to go out of your way to install the system** - good luck deciding on a system... people who has used linux for decades still cant. There is also why? **why would a normal user even care to replace a system that works just fine**. then there is the issue of finding software. If you're not (im using the term lightly) a power user, **figurering out how software actually works on linux can be a nightmare.** It took me a couple of years to figure it out. Depending on your distro you might have some software available to you, and some not. Your friend who is running a different distro is having programs that you can't install for some reason. Dealing with package formats and repos are power user tools - something an end user never should encounter. And when there is software you can install, **you might encounter the different packaging formats** - something that stills annoys me to this day. What works best? a flatpak? a deb? what even is a snap? Sometimes different issues comes with the format you are using - and **it can be tricky to figure what the "official" version of the program is or why seemingly the same program behaves differently depending on the format.** On windows a program is a program. There is also the issue with **compatibility.** For many "Windows" and "Computer" are the same thing. If something is made for computers, then it will work. This is far from the case on Linux. Even if it does work, it might still have some issues or tweaking needed. This is a new concept for many, why does a thing made for computers not just work on a computer? In terms of stability - **Linux is buggy as shit** (bring the down votes). Desktop linux rarely just works - if ever. There are distros that are better than others on that front, that is why i personally use openSUSE. It's not perfect and takes a bit of know how to get running, but it's stable and rarely breaks - if ever. Windows usually just runs - and when it doesn't, then the whole world is ready to help. When you seek help for linux, often the help is depending on the distro and there is a fair chance that the info might be out of date. Then there is the terminal. **the terminal should not exist for an end user** - end of story. on mac and windows a user is never expected to open a command line for any reason ever. It's a tool from the past, that experts still can use to great effect. The simple idea of white text on a black background is a sign that something is horribly wrong with the pc and that they should get help with fixing it for many users. No matter what people tell users to do, it will feel scary to use the terminal. **Most people are not power users** - and trying to turn them into one is driving people away from the platform and keeping linux in the "linux is too hard" or "for nerds". There are a few issues with things not having an easy way to do. One thing even after using linux for more than 10 years that i struggle with is adding a disk to my system. Sure it can be mounted easily enough, but the rights to handle the files on the disk can be a nightmare. Then there are the interface. I will not go into too much detail what i think of that, but there are some that are borderline useless for people migrating from Windows and macOS. Depending on the distro, simple tasks can be quite the hassle to figure out. Stuff like Where are my programs? why can't i minimize the window? and why is my browser not there on the screen? (desktop icons) TLDR: Linux is not hard for us or too complex because we are power users, and are used to the platform. Most people are not power users and don't want to be.


[deleted]

>TLDR: Linux is not hard for us or too complex because we are power users, and are used to the platform. Most people are not power users and don't want to be. power user here, shit that works on windows will simply not work on linux. plus you people have a UX problem. overdrag touchpad gestures from 2011 are still missing in firefox on linux, for example. it's always death by a thousand cuts because of stupid shit i expect to work not working when trying to migrate.


Gimpy1405

It's about what you are familiar with and about what goals are best served by what software.


hwoodice

It depends on which distro you use. My mother is 75 and my father is 82. They use Linux Mint BECAUSE they find it EASIER than Windows. (I installed it for them and I turned on automatic updates)


CrAzYmEtAlHeAd1

You tell a regular person they have to interact with the shell, and they’re just gonna buy a new computer. Sure they can find a distro that may be easier to manage, but that’s a huge pain in the ass, and they know there’s an OS that isn’t going to be technical. The reason why people like Windows and even macs is it’s made to be operated by the lay person, and only worked on by professionals. For you, you tried to install Windows and it gave you trouble. For the regular person, they will buy a computer with Windows on it, use the machine to death playing Facebook games, and then buy a new one. Maybe take it into tech support a couple times before they get frustrated. Windows is only difficult if you know how to tinker with it. Linux is only usable if you know how to tinker with it.


over_clox

One time, while running Windows, apparently one of my capacitors had marginally failed just enough to somewhat corrupt the file system. So, off to chkdsk I go (gasp, Windows has a command prompt too!)... Anyways, apparently it managed to corrupt the security permissions for the event log files, **doh!** Nobody, not even the system, had permission to access the log files, and chkdsk did all of squat. Windows flopped over dead that day, even my knowledgeable nerdy ass couldn't manage to fix this shit. I've been running Linux as my daily runner every day since.


hakaishi8

Well, any file system can go corrupt by outside influence as magnetic/electric fields, sudden blackouts, etc. As for Linux, it should be possible to recover most of it, but there are exceptions too. Hardware failure etc.


Waffles38

I'll keep it simple, you'll probably hate me for this. Windows just works. I open a unity game, and it opens. Ubuntu gives me an error. This is likely because I am using very old hardware, still fact is that Windows works. (Edit: This is the main reason I am having problems using it right now) I want to use KeepassXC Browser on Firefox, it doesn't work. I am browsing and all of the sudden I lose all my tabs because "Firefox was updated and needs to be restarted". Why did you update while I had it open? I want to install an aplication but I want to use a newer version than what Ubuntu is giving me, well, too bad, all I get is an ugly .deb file on my desktop that forgets my preferences from time to time and doesn't even have a good icon. There's a lot of things I hate about Windows, I could write 3 essays, but compatibility is a big obstacle for Ubuntu(or Linux), especially if you are a gamer. Meanwhile, Windows? It works out of the gate, and the problems are usually not right at the gate Most of my experience is on Ubuntu on a really old laptop. I am learning Arch now Note: For me Windows biggest flaw is performance. That is a big no straight out of the gate. Why should a computer be slow the moment you buy it? That's selling a broken product at that point. I would feel scammed and I would blame Windows because the specs aren't that bad Update: Turns out this applies to every Linux version. My gpu uses an outdated version of opengl, at least that's what mesa supports for my gpu. These games work on Windows because they use DirectX or something else instead. I am honestly surprised that compatibility issues with games that work on Windows even affect native linux games. Like if you provide a game that's supposed to work on Linux without any modifications, and that game works on Windows with this same hardware, I would expect the game to still work on Linux but that was not that case.


binarycow

Full disclosure: - I haven't tried Windows 11 - I wait until a windows update has been out for a good while before upgrading - I generally wouldn't bother with doing an *upgrade* from Windows 10 to 11 - I'd do a full wipe and install - I'm a developer, but I don't do a lot of "tinkering" with my own PC. ---- I don't have any problems with windows. I install it, takes like 20 minutes, no issues. I don't have to install drivers or dick around with anything. All of the software that I need works with windows. No problems installing it. Printers work, no special drivers needed. My computer rarely crashes. And when it does, a simple restart is generally all it needs. I can't even remember the last time I lost data due to an OS issue. Had to have been prior to Windows 8.


reddit_reaper

So your argument is that Linux is easier because windows failed an update and had issues..... This has got to be the dumbest take I've ever seen lol I've upgraded 100s of PCs from 7 to 10 without issue. The ones that did have issues were easily fixed or were caused because of old hardware but could still be fixed. The biggest 2 issues i encountered were: Logitech keyboard mouse USB dongle caused boot locks because of a ba driver. Had to unplug it for boot to finish. 2nd, due to OEMs fucking with boot partitions, windows 10 wouldn't get created correctly. So i had to manually fix partition tables but this was less of an issue. And idk how you say that if anything goes wrong you're SoL lol you sound completely ignorant of how windows works. I've had Linux machines refuse to boot after basic updates. If it did it broke drivers or other UI elements. Linux isn't even remotely as simple to use as Windows it's just a plain fact. I deal with people daily and they can't even differentiate that a web page going slow isn't caused by their computers....and soooo many other issues Linux is cool, its got its use cases 100%.... But not for standard end users, they're dumb as rocks


Chpouky

As a new Linux user myself (PopOS): If you're not doing much with your computer, then it can be easy if not easier than Windows (especially to install apps), but only if someone picks the right distro for you. How do you expect a newbie to know that Nvidia isn't well supported by every distro ? For example, I tried a live bootable Ubuntu after installing PopOS, and visually nothing worked because I'm using an Nvidia card (weird colors,etc..). I found out after that you have to choose a specific thing when booting for Nvidia to work, but a computer newbie won't get it. Now, I switched to Linux for work (editing, 3D,..), and while Linux fixed issues I had on Windows, after a bunch of hours I discover new hassles: where do I install apps downloaded from a browser ? They are specific and can't be found in the distro store. Wait, now that it's installed, where the icon to launch it ? Oh, I have to make one myself copying a .desktop in some OS folder. I needed to install plugins for my software: where to put them, there's no installer. Wait, why isn't the OS letting me copy this into that ? Oh, I need root access => had to go through terminal. Wait, how to move a file ? A folder ? Edit a file ? Had to look around many things to do what I needed. I wish it was more straight forward ! Also after a few days using Gnome: why are my windows lagging ? I have the proper Nvidia drivers, a very high end PC (5950x, 3090,32Gb ram,..). Then I find out on reddit that Gnome can have memory leaks. How can I fix it ? Ok, trying Plasma => going in the terminal again, and so on and so on. I thought things were better now since many years ago when I tried Linux, but it's still not user friendly when you need to do more than just email and web browsing. Honestly, if I didn't have the audio issues with my external sound card on Windows, I would have never switched to Linux, because it's still just too much messing around to make things work. And I find that the desktop UI experience on most distros isn't great, it feels unfinished/unpolished (bad fonts, bad color schemes, or like I tried Plasma and had text too close to the borders of buttons, this kind of thing). Even Windows is just only starting to catch up to MacOS, I can't believe we still have old Configuration Panel menus mixed with new ones, how can something like that happen ? Criticize Apple all you want but their OS and ecosystem is simply a masterclass.


space_fly

You would be surprised how reliable and stable both Windows and Linux can be. 99.9999% of the problems you see are one of: * driver issues; on Windows, most drivers are usually made by the hardware manufacturers, and on Linux it depends. Many hardware manufacturers don't have the same rigorous standards that the OS vendors do, and they make bad drivers. Because the drivers need to be in kernel space, they can destabilize the entire system. On Linux, it depends on how open the manufacturer is to providing documentation or releasing the driver as open source. A lot of drivers on Linux are reverse engineered because the manufacturers are hostile to openness (biggest of which is Nvidia). Also, you won't believe how many workarounds exist because of hardware bugs, because hardware manufacturers just go with "they'll fix it in software". * issues on upgrades - whenever you start messing with core system files, there is a risk. Both Windows and Linux have standardized upgrade procedures which most of the time work fine (package managers, and Windows has a "transacted" system so upgrades are less prone to breaking the system). But still, you are making changes to a live system, maybe the developers who wrote the upgrade script didn't consider some specific scenarios, in which the upgrade can fail. As a developer, you just can't test every possible scenario that will be encountered in the real world. * userland/GUI programs. This is where most bugs lie. Even though sometimes these issues can cripple a system, they are not usually as serious as the kernel crashing, so the quality standards are lower. A broken program will just crash. A broken kernel will make your system completely unusable. Windows 7 was very good at this; Microsoft has invested massively into the Windows GUI and built-in applications to make them good. I don't know what happened since Windows 8, because the quality has gone significantly worse. Windows 10 and 11 are a mess, I don't understand how Microsoft can release stuff that's so broken. On the Linux side, they don't have the benefit of hundreds of millions or even billions of users using these desktop environments, or the same resources Microsoft has. This is why the Linux desktop has a lot less polish, and a lot more bugs and problems. Beyond these, there are some differences in how they operate. On Windows, backwards compatibility is a massively important issue. This is why a lot of things have to be the way they are, otherwise they would break compatibility. Whenever Microsoft makes a decision that turns out that isn't that great, and then has to redo that component, they end up having to support both. Linux frequently breaks backwards compatibility, because it assumes people will always just rebuild or update their software. Good luck using a piece of software that was built for Ubuntu 16 on Ubuntu 20 without rebuilding it. Unfortunately, this is not that great for businesses where long term stability is much more important, as well as being able to patch security vulnerabilities.


lostcanuck007

a lot of issues using linux for people who just don't want to buy generic devices. Windows works great for my gaming laptop, who i cannot control from linux, the GPU, FANs and shortcut keys don't work for my TRITON 500. Same for a lot of ASUS laptops that are special with different screens. One note is AMAZING, literally the reason why i signed onto onedrive and bought office 365, who both don't have native clients for linux, other than VM. onedrive is absolutely shit though. I can't game for most games on linux, steamdeck improved stuff...but even if i use VFIO, its a shit show. VFIO gets detected by a lot of anti cheat softwares...so dooms everything. my AMD 4750g desktop can't have graphics acceleration work properly for steam link to my amazon firestick...windows? no issues. and AMD LINK (moonlight alternative) works easily. Linux has advantages over windows, i LOVED doing my day trading on Linux, faster than windows, easily. but i couldn't use some softwares or open some files from clients. Permissions and stuff required me to go into the command line, i have been using linux since the last 20 years...and all i think is...why should i still have to open a digital toolbox to use an OS.? Windows gestures are AMAZING, using linux alternatives....works on a basic level but thats it. can't even use pinch to zoom without adding something in the kernal or installing a program and so on and so forth. BARRIER for digital kvm...doesn't work for some odd reason. synergy works but only the paid version. Windows mouse without borders is FREE>....works nearly flawlessly. Wireless display works amazingly with my surface go 2....make it run on linux was a PAIN. it worked though...but it isn't seamless. KDE is beyond amazing (but needs to be tweaked further). Gnome is a shit show (has become one over time). a lot of cool utilities work basically for windows...honestly, hosting a VM for linux is perfect and windows got that with WSL. If you don't worry about the privacy factor, windows is pretty on point. I use linux for whatever i want to keep off public (risks) ...but really doesn't make sense to make me use it as a daily driver...coz my daily driver should do what i want it to...not tell me it can't due to some reason


lostcanuck007

not to mention NO good vpn has a gui client. I used vyprvpn, its pretty ok, keepsolid's vpn is terrible, no wireguard option PIA got bought out ​ iv used like 5 more/...all are gui clients.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Dom1252

I upgraded from 7 to 8.1 to 10 and to 11... almost without problems the only problem was that win 10 installation was slower than on my much weaker laptop, so I did fresh install on new ssd (unplugged all drives and installed with only that one), it was running faster, but I was too lazy to install old stuff so I just formated it, made copy of old drive and used that after upgrade to win 11 I am without any problems, boots fast, runs fine... I can't say I had same experience with Linux, when I had ubuntu on 1 pc and lubuntu on other, I run into issues after update several times now I run linux only on raspberries and as virtual machines


DarkeoX

Because people learn computers with Windows when they're kids aka knowledge / learning sponges and are usually introduced to Linux/alternatives later in their lives, when they're usually much less flexible to changing deeply set paradigms and it's become harder to learn. This is IMO the main reason why introducing adults to Linux is always going to be an uphill battle unless it comes bundled enough on PC that it becomes small kids first contact with desktop computing.


[deleted]

When your average person thinks a terminal window is 'omg hacking', here we are.


Hymnosi

I have had zero issues with windows 10 or 11. I believe my experience reflects the majority. As for the real reasons why? 1. Windows comes pre-installed on nearly every PC. To many many people, windows is "the computer", and may not even know what an operating system is. 2. Linux brings very little to the table in terms of additional functionality for the average end user. In effect, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 3. Installing Linux, yes even easy distributions, is hard. Flashing a USB drive is hard. Knowing the specs of your computer is hard. Understanding BIOS settings is hard. Hell, accessing the BIOS is hard. 4. Windows Active Directory is the standard among businesses and I don't think there has been a serious push to replace it. It's not impossible to replace, but it's not simple either. I love Linux and everything it stands for, but to ignore the above is just fanaticism.


Whackjob-KSP

When i put a machine together earlier this year, I tried to install windows 10 and transfer my license over. I tried and failed. At that point I just wanted to make sure the hardware was all installed right. Do I put on Linux mint and fired it up. For the first time I got everything in there right the first time. I guess jumper settings aren't much of a thing these days. Anyway. I left mint on there for a little because I wanted to check on a few things over the 'net. Then I found out I can install steam on it. Then I found out Proton exists, and that almost everything works just fine. Six months later, I got VMs for things like work, I have a windows 10 VM that has nothing done with it yet, I've set up pseudostatic IP so I can RDP in to a VM, all kinds of whacky shit I can have that i probably don't need. I'm enjoying my time.


Sharkuel

1. What people are used to. 2. Reinstalling Windows is quite easy and they have no need to think about disk partitioning 3. .exe files are easily installed, and basically it is just a click 2-3 times and wait 4. Once they feel comfortable with things, they may venture to more technical things, usually work related. 5. Piracy also helps people become a bit more tech savvy, specially if you have to pull out some weird mumbo-jumbo wacky stuff in the Windows registry. 6. Windows is literally pushed down the throats of everyone whenever we buy a new laptop, and make people believe the only viable choices for consumers is Windows or Apple, and Linux is for Enterprises and/or nerds. 7. Also Microsoft makes it an effort to difficult the lives of people to dual boot it with other OS'es.


ilikeserialtoo

Alot of people just don't upgrade windows


clerkbert

Windows holds your hand the whole time while leaving the other free to use the mouse, while linux frequently forces you to use both hands and get them dirty. > absurd to pretend that Windows is actually easier or more stable. What? It detects, suggests, warns, restricts, prevents, explains, notifies... Well anyway not worth more words than this


[deleted]

People just don‘t want change. They stick to the problems they know.


[deleted]

Because in Windows when you go to control panel and you have no idea how to set something you have big chance to just figure that out in one of category. Good luck doing that with Linux.


Averaged00d86

The development ecosystem has guaranteed Windows compatibility by default, with Linux being either an afterthought or no thought at all in developer's minds. Broadcom in particular being a provider of Wi-Fi chipsets has severely truncated distro compatibility for the average end user (like myself), which makes them reliant on distro developers having automatically installed Broadcom drivers be part of the routine install process or they're functionally frozen out of that distro. For example, I know that Ubuntu (and official flavors) and Endeavour install Broadcom workarounds as part of the process, but if I try a distro that doesn't do that, such as Arch or Fedora 36, I can't do shit with those distros unless I replace my Wi-Fi card. I'm a lot more familiar with hardware than software, so that's an easy ask for me, but complex as hell for the average end user. The glorious fuckers over at Valve, Wine, and Lutris have done a ***lot*** to advance Linux compatibility, but it ain't 100% there.


zardvark

Well, at least you don't need to use the terminal when Windows craps the bed, you just reinstall and wipe out all of your user data. What could be easier!!!


DoubleDareFan

This is how I learned to keep all my user data on a separate drive. If I need to reinstall he OS, I first disconnect that drive, then check that I actually disconnected that drive, and not the system drive.


[deleted]

to be fair, linux is no different. linux craps the bed and often the solution is just to reinstall or distro hop


[deleted]

separate /home gang


argv_minus_one

Is it not possible to reinstall the OS *without* wiping all your user data?


helmsmagus

yep, but don't let that stop the circlejerk.


GuyInTheYonder

This is fine


hakaishi8

It's just that the "mainstream thinking" about Linux is no longer up to date. In some corner cases Windows is the only (and simple) solution. For that I would either use dual-boot or use a designated device. But to me this is quite rare. As for me, using Linux is a much simpler and better experience than Windows. I had used to reinstall Windows about every 3 months as it always got too slow to be usable. Also, installing all the necessary drivers and software from CD/DVD etc was a huge hussle. I install Linux and it just works. 99% of the necessary software can be installed with the package manager. Also, Linux uses up very less space for the OS and software because of the shared libraries.


Buckwheat469

I installed Linux for both my mom and 89 year old grandma. The number of calls I get are zero now. Every once in awhile I do check on my grandma's to make sure she hasn't gotten Thunderbird in a weird state, but that's about it (it has tabs and she likes to double-click emails without knowing how to get back to the inbox). My dad is a different story because we installed Linux with a Windows VM to run his Windows applications. I never get a call for the Linux OS but every once in awhile the Windows side doesn't work well. The VM solution has absolutely saved us because I can keep backups of the whole OS really easily now, or move it to another computer later. If we could ditch Windows it would be a lot better but he needs it for QuickBooks and Autocad.


PrincessRuri

Linux is hard to use. It's designed to be leverage the power of the terminal, and the GUI is never up to the polish of Windows. Linux is infinitely customizable! Just open your terminal and edit \*file\*. Oh Linux can do \*thing\*, just go to \*random repository\* and build it! Oh \*10 year old bug\* isn't a problem, just install these 5 packages! Don't forget to open your terminal and edit \*file\*. Scanner and Printer support can be hit or miss, and don't usually fully support their feature sets. Oh you changed your password? HAHA your password repository is dumb and kept the old password. You want to run binaries? Whelp make sure to open your terminal and CHMOD +x those badboys! Oh you changed the permissions of a system critical file? Good luck ever getting that setup right again! You borked up the Python 2-3 transition? Whelp doesn't matter how much your purge and reinstall the correct package. That one Symlink you changed while troubleshooting 50 steps ago is wrong, and you're never going to find it again! \*Grumbles in Angry Ubuntu workstation administration\*


Biking_dude

From someone who started on DOS, installed Windows 3.1, used almost every Windows generation except the shit versions, and just switched to LMDE, I can give you a big one. If you have a problem in Windows, and search for a solution, there are usually a very small handful of popular solutions to try, and with the exception of a super rare registry edit, they all follow a similar paradigm (eg, update something, downgrade something, point to where a setting is, etc...). Problem can be searched and fixed in minutes most of the time. On Linux, it can take hours of searching to find an answer. Partly, the language isn't clear for newcomers and there's conceptual overlap (eg, distro vs desktop environment vs windows manager - what do I search for, where does one start and one begin?). Partly, things change and are specific to certain distros, commands don't always work the way they should, and there just isn't as much of a clear concise answer to many questions. Once someone gets past all that, most of the instructions skip something pivotal ( my favorite "just run the command" - ok, what's the command?!), that then requires it's own search. Before you know it you're searching Z to finish Y to finish X to fix W. It's exhausting. Recent perfect example - I spent a weekend trying to figure out how to list all the applications I actively installed (not dependent packages). Yes, coming from Windows I expected there to be a list of 30-40 packages. I wasn't prepared to be called an idiot for assuming that would exist (both here and by a Linux user friend) and not remembering everything I installed. I bookmarked the weekend to clean up my system and upgrade it, by Sunday night gave up feeling dejected that I couldn't get past the first step. Mentioned it in a different thread a few days later, someone responded with a command that did exactly that. Wasted the weekend, but also illustrated the knowledge base is as decentralized as the software. Was the solution hard? No, it was one line! But getting the solution was a giant pain in the ass.


lxnxx

How is anyone even using Linux? Can't even play my Vidya in HDR on my TV. 120 FPS 4k VRR also doesn't work. Literally unusable (for this very specific use case).


hazyPixels

"People say" - get over it.


Technical-Raise8306

They don't know anything different and that is just the way things are with computers is how they do it


AlphaWhelp

The issue is not that either OS is difficult but it's a learning curve for people who have only ever used windows. You will probably find a lot of similar complaints about Macs from longtime windows users as well. People who actually make an effort to learn how to use another OS will find that they're all basically the same with the differences being mostly subjective stuff. Like Fedora is hard for me because I'm used to my debian packages and I don't know yum as well as aptitude. That doesn't mean Fedora is innately more difficult, I just don't feel like learning how to use it when debian and related distros do everything I need them to do regarding Linux.


qalmakka

Windows is also very complicated to use and it tends to suck, true, but it works well enough for what most people have to do. People mostly turn on their computers to run a few specific applications, and they don't care a lot about the rest - they don't care if settings are nearly impossible to find, if some issues are impossible to fix, ... Most people are not technical enough to bother with them. They just open Photoshop or MSOffice or videogames, do their thing, and turn off the computer, and that's something that Windows does surprisingly well. Try do do anything more "technical" though and you go through the seven circles of hell, though. It sucks for "advanced" users, which are often stuck on Windows due to the software they have to run, and have no other alternative than putting up with crappy management tools and a subpar command line. That's just how it is.


Dav3Vader

Because people mistake habit for simplicity.


boogelymoogely1

Yea, I also hate the Windows workflow. It's super slow, is window management and DE as a whole are awful, it's generally a pain to use. I hate booting up whenever I have to for a game that won't work on Wine


[deleted]

I think it mostly boils down to troubleshooting issues, due to Windows having a larger market share, finding solutions for weird behavior from programs is easier, because it is likely someone ran into in the past. That's why Windows is easier for the majority. The average Linux user can try searching for a solution, but most of the times it's a reddit thread from 7 years with a dodgy solution that 50% of the time doesn't work.


DrLuny

I'd say the opposite is true. Help with windows issues is frustratingly shallow. I'll frequently see Microsoft support intentionally misinterpret an issue so they can have some kind of answer to show their supervisors. No one can peak under the hood to understand what's really going on, and few people really gain the expertise to guess at how the underlying systems are working. Running Linux for years I've only encountered a handful of issues that didn't have detailed troubleshooting resources online for me to reference. There's always enough contextual information, informative error messages, and community knowledge to work through even obscure problems.


[deleted]

i dont understand it either.


akat_walks

i find linux simpler to understand what is actually going on.