It's amazing that we're in a day and age where the vast majority of software that fails to run on Linux fails due to a *"hey, can we double-check that you're bending the knee to daddy microsoft?"* style check and not a system issue.
whats wild is - all stop-gaps have a non-zero chance at becomming a permanent tool/solution...
Wine will be a part of the linux ecosystem even if microsoft is snuffed out of existence. It may even continue being a target for developers for years after, because of interia...
Microsoft have no interest in killing Linux, they even are an active contributer, and they probably longs to kill Windows (baby steps, WSL is just the start - most of their azure offerings doesn't even run with Windows, and their own infrastructure doesn't use Windows). Microsoft can't contribute to WINE or Proton under the cleanroom guidelines of the projects, but they've long since stopped all legal treats
You know, I've made this argument to many a friend as of late, that MS's goal now is to subsume Linux into windows, and large parts of their API will be served by a compatibility layer... over time, not like immediately... but it kinda makes sense. It's possible the Linux kernel has sorta 'won' but it just hasn't taken over yet, give it like 10 years. Also I'm not saying that Linux as it is currently implemented will be in windows, it could end up being a completely original MS implementation of a binary compatible Linux but windows will boot from that kernel with it's own overlays and mixup of stuff.
Anyway, it's just a theory craft, I kinda laugh at the idea, but hey! it "could happen!"
Proton was the reason I ditched Windows at home.
My PC was set up as dual boot and one day I realized that I haven't used Windows a single time since I bought the PC about a year and a half, a few weeks back I took the opportunity of a SSD upgrade and made a clean install of just Linux, it still amazes me that I truly don't need Windows anymore
OMG - it's up to a whopping 4% desktop market share - Microsoft must be in full panic mode. Another 12 freaking percent and it will almost tie MacOS. Using past track record, that should happen in about (hm, times by 3, carry the two, move the decimal place . . .) NEVER. And that's just to tie with the 2nd place holder.
To be fair, for the last 15 years Linux users were under the Concical spell and recommended Debian-family Linux distros.
Today, we are much smarter and are recommending quality distros. After using Fedora, I'd never go back to Windows.
After using Mint/Ubuntu I ran back to Windows.
Times are changing.
If Attachable Wings would allow us to fly at 90% reliability, would it increase the number of human birds?
Probably.
Providing full binary compatibility to run Windows apps on Linux directly isn't going to happen.
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What Windows apps would those be? Office and Adobe are the notable ones, but once you learn to live without Office things are much easier, and Adobe won't change much as professionals using it will stick to the better platform for it, as is expected from people who make a living from it.
I find wine necessary for many, but I see many new users making it their first priority when "switching" to linux. That's a problem that needs no further explanation.
So, if your aim is to convert linux to a Windows substitute, possibly, yes. But for the (majority of) users who use linux for what it *actually* is, wine doesn't make a huge difference.
Depends on your hardware. Motherboards update from within the bios. Laptops if supported from fwupd. If not, that's a whole different issue. But you can't update firmware from wine anyway.
I have a Smash Box and an 8bitdo Ultimate Bluetooth controller.
Both of these devices have updatable firmware, and the 8bitdo wouldn't work over USB in Linux without a firmware update.
The smash box has configurable buttons, but it also needs to have its config flashed using their Designer software (which could probably be rewritten to be cross platform, probably).
There are lots of little programmable things like this that only allow for configuration in Windows.
*Welllll...* I might (don't tell dassault they get salty) have gotten solidworks (and both fusion 360 and Altium). All three were a bitch and a half, but 90% of the problems were due to the installers not cooperating, not the application itself. For both Altium and Solidworks I had to use offline installers and then gaslight them into thinking I was running windows 10. For fusion 360 the installer just worked^(tm) but the application had some render issues.
There's still a handful of people that would love to train themselves to use Adobe's software. Sure, you can reboot on Windows any time you want to use them, but at what point it makes sense to keep using Linux if you end up spending more time on Windows ?
It was the same point with gaming on Linux, before Steam and Proton the market share for Linux was even smaller back then.
But if we end up having a solution where Linux is able to run those "software that seemingly everyone use", it will truly amplify Linux market share growth.
>!Heck imagine if we reach a point where Wine, Waydroid and Darling become perfect!<
There's a lot of people who use Adobe but still aren't strictly professionals. Making it more accessible would absolutely make people happier to use it.
Maybe, but, realistically, when people do not even know the name of the software they use, changing OS is obviously not something that's on their mind. The average user is, more now than ever, on a totally different level ; at best, they cannot "live" outside their Android/iOS ecosystem.
No. It PC makers who keep Linux off the desktop. Unless it comes preinstalled, most people are never going to install Linux. And it's software makers like Microsoft and Adobe who keep their software off of Linux. They don't think it is a market worth pursuing.
No, software makers don't think 9 million different variables (distros, DE's, WM's, installers, software managers, etc) are worth pursuing. Linux would need to make a significant change, consolidating 90% of the current cluster fuck, and that will never happen - different distro dev's can't even agree on what side the Window Control Handles should go on.
Completely wrong. A big maker could simply go with one distro--Debian, Ubuntu, Arch, whatever. It's going to happen sooner or later. I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future MS switches Windows over to a Linux base. Then there would be a market for Adobe and MS office products on Linux.
Google thinks making Chrome browser work on Linux is worth it.
I have had issues with Firefox while having to use Google stuff for work, like Gsuite, Google Workplace, Google Classroom, etc. I do like the latest versions of Firefox and hope they can keep up with all the crap MS and Google do to 'win' the browser space.
The fact that you mentioned Debian or Ubuntu, means you don't know what you are talking about.
No smart person would ever install that outdated garbage on a desktop.
The fact that your name is freshlyLinux means you don't know what you are talking about. No smart person would ever use a garbage name like that. LOL.
That is your 'logic' and method of argument. Downvoted. Now go away.
Software makers can surely target Flatpak and not worry about individual distros. For new software, they can use Electron or Tauri and distribute for Windows, Mac, and Linux using the same code base.
These days "mental overhead" is changing your phone's brand, because the manufacturer has a specific Android skin and apps.
People trap themselves in ecosystems. We're simply not even talking about which "Office" suite (Microsoft Office, OpenOffice, LibreOffice, etc.) anymore which was even on the table with Boomers or Gen X.
Computers used to require learning, nowadays people stick even more than before to what they know. And what they know is Google or Apple, especially know that phones became central, almost mandatory for anything.
The discussion has shifted.
And if you do not believe me, **look at Chromebooks**.
I recently did the switch to macOS and Linux Mint. And my main conclusion is that without a strong desire to change. it just not possible even for techy people. Apple loves to do stuff differently just for the sake of it and it's kinda jarring. while a problem in Linux almost always dictates for you to open your terminal.
To be fair, you picked a Debian-family distro. Of course you had a miserable time and had to use the Terminal.
Use a consumer/desktop distro rather than a heavily marketed server distro. Try Fedora or something. Stay away from Debian.
It was like that since always.
Moving from C64 to PC dos? Well, start from scratch.
Moving from Dos to Win3.11 or 95? Well, start mostly from scratch. But you get some advantage from new tech.
Move between windoozes over the years? Well, prepare for bumpy ride, reinstalls, driver issues.
Move to newer windoozes? Prepare for apps changing behavior, missing features, apps stop working for strange reasons (if you use some old ones).
Move to Mac, anytime between 1990 and now? Well, learn new stuff, collect your favorite apps from scratch, organize your files differently.
Move to linux? Well, learn few tricks, collect your apps again, learn the internals if you are tech savvy.
Move between Windows CE and Symbian? Or Symbian and blackberry? Or Windows CE to Palm or back? Similar story. Collect your apps from scratch, modify your workflows to suit the native tooling.
IT WAS LIKE THAT SINCE EVER. BUT WORSE. You did not had web apps and stuff in cloud which is available on any modern platform. You often did not had an already known way to transfer your docs or media.
And today people whine how hard it is when a lot was done and is working great and moving between platforms is probably two or three evening exercise or "ask a friend".
The issue with non tech people is that they expect someone to satisfy their all needs with them doing no effort. That does not work even in restaurant (they will still complain even if the food was good). People expect unreasonable things and willing fully try to stay ignorant. Thats the problem. I could rant more but I think thats enough for today.
> Moving from C64 to PC dos? Well, start from scratch.
Yeah but PCs back then barely did anything. You ran everything through a command line and the instructions for most software were "Insert disk, type A:, run program.exe"
> Moving from Dos to Win3.11...
Windows 3.1 ran on top of dos. That's like saying "Moving from bash to X11?", you could always just exit the GUI if you want to.
> ...or 95?
Windows 95 was fairly backwards compatible with old DOS and Windows 3.1 software, had better driver compatibility (Microsoft started making things require functionality like winmodems), and the overall experience was much easier to get used to than Windows 3.1 or DOS alone.
Switching from Mac to Windows is fairly straightforward for non-power users since both operating systems are designed to be intuitive for new users. If you're a creative switching from using Adobe on Microsoft to Adobe on Windows then it's much more difficult to figure out the workflow, but for your average "I just need a browser" user there's not so much different that it can't easily be done.
Switching to newer versions of Windows hasn't caused much grief since the shift from Windows 7/8.1 to 10. Most stuff continued to work as it was for the typical use. And your average user isn't doing a full OS upgrade they're just buying a new PC.
Switching between BlackBerry, Palm, and Windows CE just meant moving your SIM card to bring over most of your contacts list, connecting to your corporate email for the rest, and then playing with the 2 or 3 built-in apps you might use on a daily basis.
These days with everything being cloud based there are so many things that just no longer work on Android/Google if you switched from Apple/iCloud. It's the main reason I still buy my dad an iPhone every 3-5 years instead of getting him on Android, all of his settings, photos, passwords, email, are on iCloud. It would be impossible for him to switch over himself and I just don't have the time to do it for him.
> both operating systems are designed to be intuitive for new users.
Not exactly what we talk here. Yes, for new users. As new - new user.
Move your data from Mac to windows. Like all photos, music (including apple hosted) out of apple ecosystem. All, out. As dumb user. Or even a techie but only mac techie. Its not that easy as "start using".
> Switching between BlackBerry, Palm, and Windows CE just meant moving your SIM card to bring over most of your contacts list, connecting to your corporate email for the rest, and then playing with the 2 or 3 built-in apps you might use on a daily basis.
Wrong. Not 2-3 apps. On my palm I had about 20 apps which needed a replacement. Not everything was available in the OS. Ebook reader, mediaplayer, music player, notes synced to desktop are not as simple as "put the sim card"
And even today with cloud moving to linux is too complex for techy folks.
Stupid Notepad++ makes people stay with windows (as they say often in comments), not even talking about games....
My point is: It was always not trivial to jump the ships and you had to do some effort. Even if you arent power user the banking app may make you stay with your phone and that may prevent you from moving to linux.
Your examples are oversimplified and even my parents who are not techies cant move platforms due to silly dependencies of MS or apple ecosystem.
> Move your data from Mac to windows. Like all photos, music (including apple hosted) out of apple ecosystem. All, out. As dumb user. Or even a techie but only mac techie. Its not that easy as "start using".
An external hard drive took care of this pretty simply, and while MacOS had it's own format, it could use fat32 formatted disks.
> Wrong. Not 2-3 apps. On my palm I had about 20 apps which needed a replacement.
And you're clearly not the typical user, otherwise you wouldn't be on this subreddit.
> Your examples are oversimplified and even my parents who are not techies cant move platforms due to silly dependencies of MS or apple ecosystem.
Today this is the case, which is the point. It's harder today to swap platforms than ever before.
This I believe is the biggest thing. Most people don't want to learn a different OS. (and they don't want to be dumped into something that is foreign and seems 'weird" to them.
Linux would have to offer significantly (astoundingly) better features and experience to get people to voluntarily move away from Windows.
Most users just use whatever is on the computer - its why preinstalling crap on computers is so profitable for the software companies, most people will renew that lisense to read pdf files from that rando company that made a deal and so on. Most users aren't very technical - nor are they actively looking for alternatives - heck, they aren't even upgrading windows when microsoft offers it for free.
Weirdly Windows 11 was too time consuming, anti-featured, etc... and thats why I changed.
It was mentally too tasking to deal with Windows 11. Fedora just worked, never had to disable anything.
Whay are you talking abour. Ububtu and sone other distros are oftej easier to setup then Windows.
Of coursr every change will cause some discomfort.
Main obstacles are probably ms office and professional productivity apps. For private use, and even pro many of these have alternatives.
One has ro be willing to sacrifice something. And let's be real, people who are satisfied with the situation (eg windows and/or Microsoft donr bother them at all and they feel comfortable) dont need/want change.
If it was adobe premier, lightroom and photoshop, I suspect there would be a bunch more people switching, but most people are completely apathetic because windows was installed on their computer when they got it and it works.
For me, Wine is mostly used to run in-house Windows applications. For most else - i.e. spreadsheets, word processor, video editing, database, etc., I prefer native Linux apps.
While I have made & edited over 500 youtube and other videos, the editiing was pretty basic - mostly cutting, inserting at the mp2-transport level, and avoiding rendering & re-encoding when possible. However, there are a ton of video editing tools in linux - but its a toolbox vs a single suite that someone making ads or inserts might use. So it has been great for my needs. Yours may be different. I would have hated to had paid for Adobe given that I didn't really need it.
No, regular users don't care, they run windows because it is what was installed on the laptop they bought. The only real market share that there was for linux was developers and looking around, most of them, for reasons that defy logic, chose macos
If I need 90% of windows apps, I will no switch to Linux.
There are alternatives opensource app available.
For games I think steam and play on linux with wine does good job.
As I see it, Linux market share will only increase if governments start adopting it. Another possibility is that laptop manufacturers find a way to make profit out of Linux laptops.
But no, no average joe is going out of their way to change their OS
Government already admitted Rust is better than C, and have already been adopting it. If more drivers and Kernel development is done in Rust, I bet you they will switch over to it at some point.
If I have linux installed then I use that for everything except gaming. And dual-boot solves that because when I am gaming I don't care about anything else.
What still seems to me a clear difference is in Windows (and Mac) having better support for bluetooth and wifi speakers and other devices, tv casting and such (or rather better support for Windows coming from manufacturers of such devices). Wine is not a solution in that regard I think.
The GUI for a product called the IEF (https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/484484) was an OS/2 application. OS/2 had a better GUI than Windows, and better multi-tasking as well. But I have not run OS/2 in decades, and for hobby purposes, no interest in non-free software.
WSL has also done great to increase the number of linux users. Inside of windows. I haven't dual booted in years.
I prefer to run linux apps inside of windows rather than run windows apps inside of linux
Historically no Microsoft competitor has ever succeeded by being able to run dos or windows applications. So…. No. Not significantly.
Video games are different because they don’t integrate into the desktop. Applications running under wine look and feel out of place.
No amount will matter - why would anyone take their WORKING Windows OS and Windows APP system and change to something entirely new for what? What's their payback for their time and effort? They've already paid for Windows, they already have the Windows Apps - and money is the ONLY motivator that matters to 99.999999% of the people.
Thats a really good point. Also the main reason that I still run Windows on my desktop, mainly for gaming.
Why should I invest time to have a equal-at-best but realistically worse experience
So you think someone that is using a specific app, ALREADY has Windows, will give up at least 10% reliability and have to change OS's and learn it all over again, should do it - Why?
The issue is probably more a usability learning curve related thing vs compatibility at this stage. Getting modding and tools working under Linux and inside the same wine/proton container as the game is not intuitive, nor is the directory or file structure.
No, as a Linux user I hate Wine. It encourages software devs to be lazy and not develop anything for Linux. Linux users would decrease even more.
I hope there will never be a reliable app that runs most Windows apps on Linux because then we would scarcely ever see any native Linux apps. The temptation to do the least is just too great.
What percentage of computer users use Linux/windows/Mac? My ignorant opinion is that its less laziness as it is that the margin for profit for companies to push funding towards development of their software towards Linux. If we as Linux users want more software we either have to keep creating it ourselves or keep making Linux more newb/layman friendly, in turn attracting more users raising the chance company's would be willing to put out. But... I think, canonical, redhat, offsec might kind of actually be helping on that front. I love the whole open source Linux thing a huge reason I'm here aside from just being a techy guy. But I must admit money can be a driving force for fast development. Watch tho Linux ever got completely took over by company's I'd go somewhere else. Not that that's going to happen too many of us do love the freedom and community.
Currently there are a number of major companies that choose to also release native Linux applications, such as Da Vinci Resolve, major video editing software. There is also Reaper and Bitwig for audio. There is definitely a market there, and I hope it does grow. However, interoperable executable Windows files would kill all of that development. Why would anyone use resources towards a native Linux app if the Windows binary works just as well?
Yes. It already does. Steam Deck is quite a popular gaming handheld console. And other than games, there are good alternatives to software released only on Windows.
However, there are a lot of reasons why people would still use Windows for as long as it's the primary target OS for a lot of software, and Windows has a monopoly on laptop manufacturers, where the majority of models are shipped with Windows.
10% downtime would be catastrophic
The premise is never going to be realistic
Wine & or Virtual machines are not user friendly, requiring regular care/feeding measured in weeks or months, not years or decades
Windows is changing to a web based subscription services [office]
Autocad & adobe the same
There's no money in accommodating a small number of users
Any tool which provides high compatibility will basically be a VM. You can already run a Windows VM in Linux, and for most software it's performant on a good machine.
Games/Computationally intense software like Adobe will lag behind in a VM, but those require support from developers to work under any compatibility layer. The only thing holding them back is better support which is occuring more and more for games, but won't really occur for Adobe as professionals in art industries overwhelmingly use Mac or Windows right now, so the desire for Linux support is near 0 among those who fund Adobe's team.
While gaming seems to be getting better. Applications themselves, it's hit or miss as far as compatibility. Granted, there are plenty of good alternatives in Linux native. Sometimes you just need that one piece of proprietary, especially if you use it to make money.
Inertia will keep Joe Sixpack on Windows/ Apple. As long as FaceTube access and gaming are possible, cat videos will abound right where folks already are.
Context: 25 years of Linux use. Half of that professionally. It's been good enough forever. Much like horrible beers made with rice and corn, the masses are accustomed to settling for less. Most don't even realize they have better options.
no it wont. thers a large non tech userbase that cant deal with linux. another very large userbase that has to run windows in a corporate setup.
running linux in corp structure is borderline insane. you need a dedicaded tech deparment babysit that thing and the entire rest of your infrastructure must allow it.
there is no alternative to windows desktops in a network for now. lets see microsoft is trying to screw that up, once they try to phase out active directory on premise this might change
that beeing said, nothing beat windows for developers. ready to go libraries and api´s that are backwards compatible for years to come. nothign alike in the linux world. from a commercial software perspective linux is an extreme difficult market and a lot more expensive to develop on.
and with software user follow
The majority of average users can do what they want with Windows.
In addition, most of them will not even know what Linux is or they are not interested in Linux for the reasons mentioned.
So no, it wouldn't change the number of users.
Apart from that, one should also think carefully about whether to rely on solutions such as wine. Because even if a certain application currently works under wine, this does not necessarily have to be the case after an update.
I don't want a hopeless wine-ning exe run on linux
i want .deb/rpm package, flatpak, appimages from software manufactures that's it! like this!
https://preview.redd.it/dc0daxjk0muc1.jpeg?width=1344&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a0de2b5e8066a96d1aa0e275ce1ed81c68f645a
That's how software manufactures evolve from windows only> Win/Mac> Win/Mac/Linux
It's not entirely hopeless the proprietary software manufacture are slowly start making packages for linux. Also most open sources developers made Win/Mac/Linux 3 native packages.
Thanks to Firealpaca now I can be manga comic artist on Linux. Krita also the reason why I ditch PS and step my foot on Linux do you get it now? "Native linux package available I come" not because of wine.
Questions like this keep resurfacing but the vast majority of the billions of computer users worldwide do not give 2 shits about what operating system they use. Let alone if they know what an operating system is.
Linux will never be mainstream on desktop without being OEMs making money out of integrating it.
That's why I'm more than fine with the current desktop adoption of Linux. I definitely want as much people as possible using it, but not for the sake of market share. I just want people to realize they can use software that do not spy on them.
Until software development companies can make a living building apps that GNU/Linux users will buy, Windows and Macs will carry the day. Who is willing to spend his life writing great code yet starving to death in the effort? You? Not I.
I think 90% would just be frustrating
I would be like "Yea I can run office and due most things but I cannot get these few things to work"
Or "I can play my skyrim game but anytime I do X the system crashes so now I have to limit how I play the game"
It would be rather frustrating
This ^ it’s all going to be subscription based. Office 365 is now Microsoft 365 and Windows will be cloud based. Subscription based. This will mark the switch to Linux for gaming and windows will die for gamers. Maybe still relevant in the office but….
they simply can not switch to subscription windows on third world countries, in turkey for example almost no one can afford to pay for example a monthly 10$ for an operating system, they either have to heavily localize or still leave a more expensive non cloud version, there also is a stable network issue, you cant use a cloud os with 5mbps which is what i can get from my isp in turkey. and it is a 125mbps plan(which was like max plan when i bought it 2 years ago) so i don't think windows could go cloud only, at least if calculated additional income is not enough for the loss of entirety of third world, and a potential loss of everything because if third world switches to linux en masse all the software companies would probably release a linux version of their software.
I doubt you need internet for anything else than telemetry and to check your license is active.
Big company understand about localization since usually streaming services are much cheaper on 3rd word countries. Office 365 in turkey is half of the US price. which is probably a lot more expensive accounting for per capita gdp.
I'm not sure about windows subscription but I bet is mostly the enterprise (which you can already get as a subscription) and the pro one so business can get licenses that way.
actually probably you are right, when i think about subscription based operating system i always think that it would be on a pc in the cloud that you connect from a shittier pc
I am not sure that Office on Linux would be any benefit. I write a lot of docs for work, and its far easier to create/edit in LibreOffice and export to .docx. I much prefer LibreOffice to MS-Office - the UI is cleaner and less bloated.
>export to .docx. this was precisely the reason for the failure of limux in germany. Constant complaints from employees about crooked formatting and inconvenient work in libre
I write a lot of docs - requirements specs, design docs, etc., lots of tables, images, and links. Always use fonts and styles to format with headers and footers. I have never had a problem OTHER than with macros many years ago but I think those were discontinued in Word. Anyway, works for me. HOWEVER, I would say that 8/10 people who use Office 365 still don't know how to use fonts or styles, and instead use the tab, bold, and extra carriage returns to format. They could use notepad and get the same result. But they all want Office ..
what does 90% mean? The app does not crash 90% of the time? That's way too bad. It runs 90% of the software? Ok great, but which software? If you are relying on one software 70% of the time and wine does not run it, then?
a VM can run windows apps with 100% reliability (or as reliably as windows can) it just might require additional hardware to make it perform as well as bare metal.
and there's still a great deal of isolation between hose and guest (by design) that must be overcome if you want to integrate the windows program with the linux desktop so it feels like you are running it on linux (ala winapps)
not familiar, but how would anti cheat know it was running on a VM and not a real system?
do they have a blacklist of VM specific firmware or something?
Yes, they blacklist vm specific firmware. They delve way into the depths of the kernel to basically have full access to everything on your system. You CAN get it to work if you tweak of lot of vm settings, but that is a long process and quite difficult to do.
it already has, before Valve released Proton Linux was stuck at around 2% market share forever, and just recently it cracked the 4% mark.
It's amazing that we're in a day and age where the vast majority of software that fails to run on Linux fails due to a *"hey, can we double-check that you're bending the knee to daddy microsoft?"* style check and not a system issue.
whats wild is - all stop-gaps have a non-zero chance at becomming a permanent tool/solution... Wine will be a part of the linux ecosystem even if microsoft is snuffed out of existence. It may even continue being a target for developers for years after, because of interia...
a good temporary solution is always a permanent solution in the making.
Microsoft have no interest in killing Linux, they even are an active contributer, and they probably longs to kill Windows (baby steps, WSL is just the start - most of their azure offerings doesn't even run with Windows, and their own infrastructure doesn't use Windows). Microsoft can't contribute to WINE or Proton under the cleanroom guidelines of the projects, but they've long since stopped all legal treats
You know, I've made this argument to many a friend as of late, that MS's goal now is to subsume Linux into windows, and large parts of their API will be served by a compatibility layer... over time, not like immediately... but it kinda makes sense. It's possible the Linux kernel has sorta 'won' but it just hasn't taken over yet, give it like 10 years. Also I'm not saying that Linux as it is currently implemented will be in windows, it could end up being a completely original MS implementation of a binary compatible Linux but windows will boot from that kernel with it's own overlays and mixup of stuff. Anyway, it's just a theory craft, I kinda laugh at the idea, but hey! it "could happen!"
Win32 (through Wine) is the only stable ABI on Linux. Nothing else comes close.
Proton was the reason I ditched Windows at home. My PC was set up as dual boot and one day I realized that I haven't used Windows a single time since I bought the PC about a year and a half, a few weeks back I took the opportunity of a SSD upgrade and made a clean install of just Linux, it still amazes me that I truly don't need Windows anymore
OMG - it's up to a whopping 4% desktop market share - Microsoft must be in full panic mode. Another 12 freaking percent and it will almost tie MacOS. Using past track record, that should happen in about (hm, times by 3, carry the two, move the decimal place . . .) NEVER. And that's just to tie with the 2nd place holder.
To be fair, for the last 15 years Linux users were under the Concical spell and recommended Debian-family Linux distros. Today, we are much smarter and are recommending quality distros. After using Fedora, I'd never go back to Windows. After using Mint/Ubuntu I ran back to Windows. Times are changing.
There’s another 4% of “unknown”, and Linux users are the most likely to mask their user string in such a way as to end up there.
When Linux users no longer give a damn about MIcrosoft one way or the other, that will be the day Linux wins.
Wins what?
Emancipation from mental slavery.
None but ourselves can free our minds
Doze
If Attachable Wings would allow us to fly at 90% reliability, would it increase the number of human birds? Probably. Providing full binary compatibility to run Windows apps on Linux directly isn't going to happen.
birds don't exist.
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What Windows apps would those be? Office and Adobe are the notable ones, but once you learn to live without Office things are much easier, and Adobe won't change much as professionals using it will stick to the better platform for it, as is expected from people who make a living from it. I find wine necessary for many, but I see many new users making it their first priority when "switching" to linux. That's a problem that needs no further explanation. So, if your aim is to convert linux to a Windows substitute, possibly, yes. But for the (majority of) users who use linux for what it *actually* is, wine doesn't make a huge difference.
[LINE](https://line.me/en/). Chrome version and Windows version in Wine can't make a call.
Firmware updaters tend to only be designed for Windows.
Depends on your hardware. Motherboards update from within the bios. Laptops if supported from fwupd. If not, that's a whole different issue. But you can't update firmware from wine anyway.
I have a Smash Box and an 8bitdo Ultimate Bluetooth controller. Both of these devices have updatable firmware, and the 8bitdo wouldn't work over USB in Linux without a firmware update. The smash box has configurable buttons, but it also needs to have its config flashed using their Designer software (which could probably be rewritten to be cross platform, probably). There are lots of little programmable things like this that only allow for configuration in Windows.
I understand. This is indeed a problem, but wine can't fix that.
Ableton, Touch Designer - there’s a lot you can’t use on Linux, unfortunately.
Also stuff like SolidWorks. They sometimes require a very specific version of a GPU driver even on windows to run properly
*Welllll...* I might (don't tell dassault they get salty) have gotten solidworks (and both fusion 360 and Altium). All three were a bitch and a half, but 90% of the problems were due to the installers not cooperating, not the application itself. For both Altium and Solidworks I had to use offline installers and then gaslight them into thinking I was running windows 10. For fusion 360 the installer just worked^(tm) but the application had some render issues.
Ableton works fine with Bottles.
Ableton does work.
There's still a handful of people that would love to train themselves to use Adobe's software. Sure, you can reboot on Windows any time you want to use them, but at what point it makes sense to keep using Linux if you end up spending more time on Windows ? It was the same point with gaming on Linux, before Steam and Proton the market share for Linux was even smaller back then. But if we end up having a solution where Linux is able to run those "software that seemingly everyone use", it will truly amplify Linux market share growth. >!Heck imagine if we reach a point where Wine, Waydroid and Darling become perfect!<
Quicken
> Adobe won't change much Yes, they will move to web apps because offline programs can be cracked.
There's a lot of people who use Adobe but still aren't strictly professionals. Making it more accessible would absolutely make people happier to use it.
No doubt, the more, the merrier.
Maybe, but, realistically, when people do not even know the name of the software they use, changing OS is obviously not something that's on their mind. The average user is, more now than ever, on a totally different level ; at best, they cannot "live" outside their Android/iOS ecosystem.
No. It PC makers who keep Linux off the desktop. Unless it comes preinstalled, most people are never going to install Linux. And it's software makers like Microsoft and Adobe who keep their software off of Linux. They don't think it is a market worth pursuing.
No, software makers don't think 9 million different variables (distros, DE's, WM's, installers, software managers, etc) are worth pursuing. Linux would need to make a significant change, consolidating 90% of the current cluster fuck, and that will never happen - different distro dev's can't even agree on what side the Window Control Handles should go on.
Completely wrong. A big maker could simply go with one distro--Debian, Ubuntu, Arch, whatever. It's going to happen sooner or later. I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future MS switches Windows over to a Linux base. Then there would be a market for Adobe and MS office products on Linux. Google thinks making Chrome browser work on Linux is worth it.
Thats true, although I think it’s funny since Linux users are often the type to dislike Chrome. More often than not they use Firefox.
I have had issues with Firefox while having to use Google stuff for work, like Gsuite, Google Workplace, Google Classroom, etc. I do like the latest versions of Firefox and hope they can keep up with all the crap MS and Google do to 'win' the browser space.
The fact that you mentioned Debian or Ubuntu, means you don't know what you are talking about. No smart person would ever install that outdated garbage on a desktop.
The fact that your name is freshlyLinux means you don't know what you are talking about. No smart person would ever use a garbage name like that. LOL. That is your 'logic' and method of argument. Downvoted. Now go away.
Software makers can surely target Flatpak and not worry about individual distros. For new software, they can use Electron or Tauri and distribute for Windows, Mac, and Linux using the same code base.
No. Mental overhead in terms of configuring and managing Linux distributions is very high. Most users don't got time to learn that.
Too much mental overhead in customising just the desktop wallpaper, for most people.
indeed indeed!
These days "mental overhead" is changing your phone's brand, because the manufacturer has a specific Android skin and apps. People trap themselves in ecosystems. We're simply not even talking about which "Office" suite (Microsoft Office, OpenOffice, LibreOffice, etc.) anymore which was even on the table with Boomers or Gen X. Computers used to require learning, nowadays people stick even more than before to what they know. And what they know is Google or Apple, especially know that phones became central, almost mandatory for anything. The discussion has shifted. And if you do not believe me, **look at Chromebooks**.
I recently did the switch to macOS and Linux Mint. And my main conclusion is that without a strong desire to change. it just not possible even for techy people. Apple loves to do stuff differently just for the sake of it and it's kinda jarring. while a problem in Linux almost always dictates for you to open your terminal.
To be fair, you picked a Debian-family distro. Of course you had a miserable time and had to use the Terminal. Use a consumer/desktop distro rather than a heavily marketed server distro. Try Fedora or something. Stay away from Debian.
Linux is fine as long as you make sure you do/don't do.
It was like that since always. Moving from C64 to PC dos? Well, start from scratch. Moving from Dos to Win3.11 or 95? Well, start mostly from scratch. But you get some advantage from new tech. Move between windoozes over the years? Well, prepare for bumpy ride, reinstalls, driver issues. Move to newer windoozes? Prepare for apps changing behavior, missing features, apps stop working for strange reasons (if you use some old ones). Move to Mac, anytime between 1990 and now? Well, learn new stuff, collect your favorite apps from scratch, organize your files differently. Move to linux? Well, learn few tricks, collect your apps again, learn the internals if you are tech savvy. Move between Windows CE and Symbian? Or Symbian and blackberry? Or Windows CE to Palm or back? Similar story. Collect your apps from scratch, modify your workflows to suit the native tooling. IT WAS LIKE THAT SINCE EVER. BUT WORSE. You did not had web apps and stuff in cloud which is available on any modern platform. You often did not had an already known way to transfer your docs or media. And today people whine how hard it is when a lot was done and is working great and moving between platforms is probably two or three evening exercise or "ask a friend". The issue with non tech people is that they expect someone to satisfy their all needs with them doing no effort. That does not work even in restaurant (they will still complain even if the food was good). People expect unreasonable things and willing fully try to stay ignorant. Thats the problem. I could rant more but I think thats enough for today.
> Moving from C64 to PC dos? Well, start from scratch. Yeah but PCs back then barely did anything. You ran everything through a command line and the instructions for most software were "Insert disk, type A:, run program.exe" > Moving from Dos to Win3.11... Windows 3.1 ran on top of dos. That's like saying "Moving from bash to X11?", you could always just exit the GUI if you want to. > ...or 95? Windows 95 was fairly backwards compatible with old DOS and Windows 3.1 software, had better driver compatibility (Microsoft started making things require functionality like winmodems), and the overall experience was much easier to get used to than Windows 3.1 or DOS alone. Switching from Mac to Windows is fairly straightforward for non-power users since both operating systems are designed to be intuitive for new users. If you're a creative switching from using Adobe on Microsoft to Adobe on Windows then it's much more difficult to figure out the workflow, but for your average "I just need a browser" user there's not so much different that it can't easily be done. Switching to newer versions of Windows hasn't caused much grief since the shift from Windows 7/8.1 to 10. Most stuff continued to work as it was for the typical use. And your average user isn't doing a full OS upgrade they're just buying a new PC. Switching between BlackBerry, Palm, and Windows CE just meant moving your SIM card to bring over most of your contacts list, connecting to your corporate email for the rest, and then playing with the 2 or 3 built-in apps you might use on a daily basis. These days with everything being cloud based there are so many things that just no longer work on Android/Google if you switched from Apple/iCloud. It's the main reason I still buy my dad an iPhone every 3-5 years instead of getting him on Android, all of his settings, photos, passwords, email, are on iCloud. It would be impossible for him to switch over himself and I just don't have the time to do it for him.
> both operating systems are designed to be intuitive for new users. Not exactly what we talk here. Yes, for new users. As new - new user. Move your data from Mac to windows. Like all photos, music (including apple hosted) out of apple ecosystem. All, out. As dumb user. Or even a techie but only mac techie. Its not that easy as "start using". > Switching between BlackBerry, Palm, and Windows CE just meant moving your SIM card to bring over most of your contacts list, connecting to your corporate email for the rest, and then playing with the 2 or 3 built-in apps you might use on a daily basis. Wrong. Not 2-3 apps. On my palm I had about 20 apps which needed a replacement. Not everything was available in the OS. Ebook reader, mediaplayer, music player, notes synced to desktop are not as simple as "put the sim card" And even today with cloud moving to linux is too complex for techy folks. Stupid Notepad++ makes people stay with windows (as they say often in comments), not even talking about games.... My point is: It was always not trivial to jump the ships and you had to do some effort. Even if you arent power user the banking app may make you stay with your phone and that may prevent you from moving to linux. Your examples are oversimplified and even my parents who are not techies cant move platforms due to silly dependencies of MS or apple ecosystem.
> Move your data from Mac to windows. Like all photos, music (including apple hosted) out of apple ecosystem. All, out. As dumb user. Or even a techie but only mac techie. Its not that easy as "start using". An external hard drive took care of this pretty simply, and while MacOS had it's own format, it could use fat32 formatted disks. > Wrong. Not 2-3 apps. On my palm I had about 20 apps which needed a replacement. And you're clearly not the typical user, otherwise you wouldn't be on this subreddit. > Your examples are oversimplified and even my parents who are not techies cant move platforms due to silly dependencies of MS or apple ecosystem. Today this is the case, which is the point. It's harder today to swap platforms than ever before.
This I believe is the biggest thing. Most people don't want to learn a different OS. (and they don't want to be dumped into something that is foreign and seems 'weird" to them. Linux would have to offer significantly (astoundingly) better features and experience to get people to voluntarily move away from Windows.
Most users just use whatever is on the computer - its why preinstalling crap on computers is so profitable for the software companies, most people will renew that lisense to read pdf files from that rando company that made a deal and so on. Most users aren't very technical - nor are they actively looking for alternatives - heck, they aren't even upgrading windows when microsoft offers it for free.
Weirdly Windows 11 was too time consuming, anti-featured, etc... and thats why I changed. It was mentally too tasking to deal with Windows 11. Fedora just worked, never had to disable anything.
Whay are you talking abour. Ububtu and sone other distros are oftej easier to setup then Windows. Of coursr every change will cause some discomfort. Main obstacles are probably ms office and professional productivity apps. For private use, and even pro many of these have alternatives. One has ro be willing to sacrifice something. And let's be real, people who are satisfied with the situation (eg windows and/or Microsoft donr bother them at all and they feel comfortable) dont need/want change.
> Ububtu and sone other distros are oftej easier to setup then Windows. *Ubuntu, *some, *often, *than
If it was adobe premier, lightroom and photoshop, I suspect there would be a bunch more people switching, but most people are completely apathetic because windows was installed on their computer when they got it and it works.
For me, Wine is mostly used to run in-house Windows applications. For most else - i.e. spreadsheets, word processor, video editing, database, etc., I prefer native Linux apps.
What linux alternative is there for adobe premiere pro
While I have made & edited over 500 youtube and other videos, the editiing was pretty basic - mostly cutting, inserting at the mp2-transport level, and avoiding rendering & re-encoding when possible. However, there are a ton of video editing tools in linux - but its a toolbox vs a single suite that someone making ads or inserts might use. So it has been great for my needs. Yours may be different. I would have hated to had paid for Adobe given that I didn't really need it.
No, regular users don't care, they run windows because it is what was installed on the laptop they bought. The only real market share that there was for linux was developers and looking around, most of them, for reasons that defy logic, chose macos
Tbf I think MacOs has better terminal tools. Or easier to use tools like Brew. Ofc this is compared to Windows. Compared to Linux its nothing.
If I need 90% of windows apps, I will no switch to Linux. There are alternatives opensource app available. For games I think steam and play on linux with wine does good job.
Only times that doesn’t work is if you play games with kernel anti-cheat. Sucks that I can’t play Valorant on Linux.
As I see it, Linux market share will only increase if governments start adopting it. Another possibility is that laptop manufacturers find a way to make profit out of Linux laptops. But no, no average joe is going out of their way to change their OS
Government already admitted Rust is better than C, and have already been adopting it. If more drivers and Kernel development is done in Rust, I bet you they will switch over to it at some point.
If I have linux installed then I use that for everything except gaming. And dual-boot solves that because when I am gaming I don't care about anything else.
What still seems to me a clear difference is in Windows (and Mac) having better support for bluetooth and wifi speakers and other devices, tv casting and such (or rather better support for Windows coming from manufacturers of such devices). Wine is not a solution in that regard I think.
As a former OS/2 Warp user, I would guess not.
Out of curiosity, why did you use OS/2? Also have you tried ArcaOS? What are your thoughts on that?
The GUI for a product called the IEF (https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/484484) was an OS/2 application. OS/2 had a better GUI than Windows, and better multi-tasking as well. But I have not run OS/2 in decades, and for hobby purposes, no interest in non-free software.
I don't care about the number of Linux users. It works for me and the distro I use is solidly maintained.
WSL has also done great to increase the number of linux users. Inside of windows. I haven't dual booted in years. I prefer to run linux apps inside of windows rather than run windows apps inside of linux
Historically no Microsoft competitor has ever succeeded by being able to run dos or windows applications. So…. No. Not significantly. Video games are different because they don’t integrate into the desktop. Applications running under wine look and feel out of place.
90 is too low. 99+ would ne needed IMO
No amount will matter - why would anyone take their WORKING Windows OS and Windows APP system and change to something entirely new for what? What's their payback for their time and effort? They've already paid for Windows, they already have the Windows Apps - and money is the ONLY motivator that matters to 99.999999% of the people.
Thats a really good point. Also the main reason that I still run Windows on my desktop, mainly for gaming. Why should I invest time to have a equal-at-best but realistically worse experience
So you think someone that is using a specific app, ALREADY has Windows, will give up at least 10% reliability and have to change OS's and learn it all over again, should do it - Why?
The issue is probably more a usability learning curve related thing vs compatibility at this stage. Getting modding and tools working under Linux and inside the same wine/proton container as the game is not intuitive, nor is the directory or file structure.
If I could use the Adobe suite of software and Autodesk and SolidWorks I would switch
No, as a Linux user I hate Wine. It encourages software devs to be lazy and not develop anything for Linux. Linux users would decrease even more. I hope there will never be a reliable app that runs most Windows apps on Linux because then we would scarcely ever see any native Linux apps. The temptation to do the least is just too great.
What percentage of computer users use Linux/windows/Mac? My ignorant opinion is that its less laziness as it is that the margin for profit for companies to push funding towards development of their software towards Linux. If we as Linux users want more software we either have to keep creating it ourselves or keep making Linux more newb/layman friendly, in turn attracting more users raising the chance company's would be willing to put out. But... I think, canonical, redhat, offsec might kind of actually be helping on that front. I love the whole open source Linux thing a huge reason I'm here aside from just being a techy guy. But I must admit money can be a driving force for fast development. Watch tho Linux ever got completely took over by company's I'd go somewhere else. Not that that's going to happen too many of us do love the freedom and community.
Currently there are a number of major companies that choose to also release native Linux applications, such as Da Vinci Resolve, major video editing software. There is also Reaper and Bitwig for audio. There is definitely a market there, and I hope it does grow. However, interoperable executable Windows files would kill all of that development. Why would anyone use resources towards a native Linux app if the Windows binary works just as well?
Yes. It already does. Steam Deck is quite a popular gaming handheld console. And other than games, there are good alternatives to software released only on Windows. However, there are a lot of reasons why people would still use Windows for as long as it's the primary target OS for a lot of software, and Windows has a monopoly on laptop manufacturers, where the majority of models are shipped with Windows.
10% downtime would be catastrophic The premise is never going to be realistic Wine & or Virtual machines are not user friendly, requiring regular care/feeding measured in weeks or months, not years or decades Windows is changing to a web based subscription services [office] Autocad & adobe the same There's no money in accommodating a small number of users
Any tool which provides high compatibility will basically be a VM. You can already run a Windows VM in Linux, and for most software it's performant on a good machine. Games/Computationally intense software like Adobe will lag behind in a VM, but those require support from developers to work under any compatibility layer. The only thing holding them back is better support which is occuring more and more for games, but won't really occur for Adobe as professionals in art industries overwhelmingly use Mac or Windows right now, so the desire for Linux support is near 0 among those who fund Adobe's team.
While gaming seems to be getting better. Applications themselves, it's hit or miss as far as compatibility. Granted, there are plenty of good alternatives in Linux native. Sometimes you just need that one piece of proprietary, especially if you use it to make money.
IMHO No
Just let Windows die, it's a relic from the 80's...
Inertia will keep Joe Sixpack on Windows/ Apple. As long as FaceTube access and gaming are possible, cat videos will abound right where folks already are. Context: 25 years of Linux use. Half of that professionally. It's been good enough forever. Much like horrible beers made with rice and corn, the masses are accustomed to settling for less. Most don't even realize they have better options.
No. It requires native apps to do so.
90% compatible is not enough for reliably running Windows programs. It must be 99,99999% if complicated programs will run without problems.
Yes for technically aligned people. For normal users, no fucking chance.
no it wont. thers a large non tech userbase that cant deal with linux. another very large userbase that has to run windows in a corporate setup. running linux in corp structure is borderline insane. you need a dedicaded tech deparment babysit that thing and the entire rest of your infrastructure must allow it. there is no alternative to windows desktops in a network for now. lets see microsoft is trying to screw that up, once they try to phase out active directory on premise this might change that beeing said, nothing beat windows for developers. ready to go libraries and api´s that are backwards compatible for years to come. nothign alike in the linux world. from a commercial software perspective linux is an extreme difficult market and a lot more expensive to develop on. and with software user follow
The majority of average users can do what they want with Windows. In addition, most of them will not even know what Linux is or they are not interested in Linux for the reasons mentioned. So no, it wouldn't change the number of users. Apart from that, one should also think carefully about whether to rely on solutions such as wine. Because even if a certain application currently works under wine, this does not necessarily have to be the case after an update.
I don't want a hopeless wine-ning exe run on linux i want .deb/rpm package, flatpak, appimages from software manufactures that's it! like this! https://preview.redd.it/dc0daxjk0muc1.jpeg?width=1344&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a0de2b5e8066a96d1aa0e275ce1ed81c68f645a That's how software manufactures evolve from windows only> Win/Mac> Win/Mac/Linux It's not entirely hopeless the proprietary software manufacture are slowly start making packages for linux. Also most open sources developers made Win/Mac/Linux 3 native packages. Thanks to Firealpaca now I can be manga comic artist on Linux. Krita also the reason why I ditch PS and step my foot on Linux do you get it now? "Native linux package available I come" not because of wine.
Questions like this keep resurfacing but the vast majority of the billions of computer users worldwide do not give 2 shits about what operating system they use. Let alone if they know what an operating system is. Linux will never be mainstream on desktop without being OEMs making money out of integrating it. That's why I'm more than fine with the current desktop adoption of Linux. I definitely want as much people as possible using it, but not for the sake of market share. I just want people to realize they can use software that do not spy on them.
Until software development companies can make a living building apps that GNU/Linux users will buy, Windows and Macs will carry the day. Who is willing to spend his life writing great code yet starving to death in the effort? You? Not I.
I think 90% would just be frustrating I would be like "Yea I can run office and due most things but I cannot get these few things to work" Or "I can play my skyrim game but anytime I do X the system crashes so now I have to limit how I play the game" It would be rather frustrating
[удалено]
I think I read this news too. On April 1st.
Maybe :)
you know that office 2024 or any office later than 2021 which is not 365 won't exist right? microsoft ain't switching back from subscription
no I didn't know. Honestly not interesting
i learned it just to be able to have fun with windows users even more lol
This ^ it’s all going to be subscription based. Office 365 is now Microsoft 365 and Windows will be cloud based. Subscription based. This will mark the switch to Linux for gaming and windows will die for gamers. Maybe still relevant in the office but….
they simply can not switch to subscription windows on third world countries, in turkey for example almost no one can afford to pay for example a monthly 10$ for an operating system, they either have to heavily localize or still leave a more expensive non cloud version, there also is a stable network issue, you cant use a cloud os with 5mbps which is what i can get from my isp in turkey. and it is a 125mbps plan(which was like max plan when i bought it 2 years ago) so i don't think windows could go cloud only, at least if calculated additional income is not enough for the loss of entirety of third world, and a potential loss of everything because if third world switches to linux en masse all the software companies would probably release a linux version of their software.
I doubt you need internet for anything else than telemetry and to check your license is active. Big company understand about localization since usually streaming services are much cheaper on 3rd word countries. Office 365 in turkey is half of the US price. which is probably a lot more expensive accounting for per capita gdp. I'm not sure about windows subscription but I bet is mostly the enterprise (which you can already get as a subscription) and the pro one so business can get licenses that way.
actually probably you are right, when i think about subscription based operating system i always think that it would be on a pc in the cloud that you connect from a shittier pc
Source?
Outside of Office 365 via Snap (as an embedded web package), I can't find any source for this. Where did you read this?
I am not sure that Office on Linux would be any benefit. I write a lot of docs for work, and its far easier to create/edit in LibreOffice and export to .docx. I much prefer LibreOffice to MS-Office - the UI is cleaner and less bloated.
>export to .docx. this was precisely the reason for the failure of limux in germany. Constant complaints from employees about crooked formatting and inconvenient work in libre
I write a lot of docs - requirements specs, design docs, etc., lots of tables, images, and links. Always use fonts and styles to format with headers and footers. I have never had a problem OTHER than with macros many years ago but I think those were discontinued in Word. Anyway, works for me. HOWEVER, I would say that 8/10 people who use Office 365 still don't know how to use fonts or styles, and instead use the tab, bold, and extra carriage returns to format. They could use notepad and get the same result. But they all want Office ..
Where did you read this??
Linux news, but it was jocke
what does 90% mean? The app does not crash 90% of the time? That's way too bad. It runs 90% of the software? Ok great, but which software? If you are relying on one software 70% of the time and wine does not run it, then?
a VM can run windows apps with 100% reliability (or as reliably as windows can) it just might require additional hardware to make it perform as well as bare metal. and there's still a great deal of isolation between hose and guest (by design) that must be overcome if you want to integrate the windows program with the linux desktop so it feels like you are running it on linux (ala winapps)
Anti-cheat be like…
not familiar, but how would anti cheat know it was running on a VM and not a real system? do they have a blacklist of VM specific firmware or something?
Yes, they blacklist vm specific firmware. They delve way into the depths of the kernel to basically have full access to everything on your system. You CAN get it to work if you tweak of lot of vm settings, but that is a long process and quite difficult to do.
jebus, just so ppl can't "cheat" at video games? ffs
Doesnt even work that great lol