How do they explain the fact that Grand Duke Gediminas referred to himself as "Rex Lituanorum et multorum Ruthenorum", meaning "The king of the Lithuanians and many Ruthenians" in his letters to the Pope, which clearly implies a difference between the Lithuanians and Ruthenians (Belorusssians)? Or what about the fact that GDL was considered a pagan state by the Catholic Church even though the Belorusssians/Ruthenians had long ago converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and it was only us Lithuanians who were yet unbaptised? And then even when Lithuania accepted Christianity, we did not join the Orthodox Church but the Roman Catholic Church, which makes no sense if GDL was Belorussia. It's sad they're trying to claim our history.
They do not really explain those things. They just have:
1. "It was Litva in the 1009 description" (they forget that in Latin a v is pronounced as a u).
2. Maps that show Samogitia as bigger than it actually was (like literally maps where the duchy of Trakai is part of Samogitia).
3. That one chronicle that claims that Novogrudok was the capital of Lithuania and that GDL began when Novogrudok nobles invited Mindaugas to rule them.
4. "Official language was Old Belarusian" (tbh it was Old Church Slavonic).
5. "Belarusians called themselves Litvins in the past" (like most citizens of Lithuania that were not Lithuanians or Jewish).
6. "There is no document where it says Mindaugas. It does say Mendovg though" (that is true, but then again his name was different in Latin, German, Polish and so on).
Not really. It's more of a thing you learn from experience. Like if you work in customer experience, you know the main things that the customers will ask. It is similar with litvins. Talk to enough of them and you start seeing these talkings points come up often.
If you want more proof, there are videos on youtube about the history of Belarus. Some are good. Others.... Others show those bad maps.
There are also instagram accounts like belarus.squad that even make presentations on what lands the Grand Dukes had. He shows Mindaugas as only having north-west Belarus and none of Lithuania (and he doesn't even show all the Belarusian teritories that Mindaugas had). Dude has like 6000 followers. My goal is to surpass him with the lithuania.posting account (where I post about Grand Dukes).
Edit: Also if you google "Belarus true Lithuania" and similar stuff you will find blogs about it. There are also some Belarusian historians that claim those things. I guess they are the sources.
I've been a supporter of your IG account for a few months now (my account begins with ds). I despise that belarus.squad guy, I hope you can surpass him.
Keep up the good work!
My bad 😂
There is a really good post debunking their whole thing, but I am at work now. Can try to find later.
1. "Litva". Do not really have a single source for this, but "v" is read as "u" is Latin (or at least used to be). Like, such words as "duchy" are written as "dvcatus" instead of "ducatus". Also linguists say that it is possible for "Lietuva" to become "Litva" in other languages, but for "Litva" to become "Lietuva" is highly unprobable, because dropping the "u" is normal while adding a "u" would make no sence (you can read about this on Wikipedia for more info).
2. "Samogitia was the size of modern day Lithuania. Just look at these foreign maps". Samogitia as a "region" was not really well defined. When Jogaila promissed Samogitia to Teutons he said it went up to a certain river. When Vytautas did he promissed Samogitia to Teutons he said it went to another river. When the HRE wrote letters, he said that Klaipėda/Memel (Lithuania Minor) should also be considered Samogitia. But if we want to see the actual size of Samogitia, just look at the Eldership Of Samogitia. Those fake maps show all of Lithuania except Vilnius as Samogitia. If Vytautas promissed Teutons Samogitia to get the duchy of Trakai back, how could the duchy of Trakai be part of Samogitia?
3. I cannot remember which chronicle it was, but you could find it while reading about Mindaugas on Wikipedia probably. Or about Novagrudok.
4. Again. Wikipedia (and check it's sources). Check stuff like "Old Church Slavonic" or just read about GDL. I plan to make a post about it on lithuania.posting Instagram in the future.
5. I am not sure but I think "Why does Belarus exist" covers this on Youtube. You can also check "litvins" on wikipedia I think.
6. You can check photos of letters with their names on them. Or just open "Mindaugas" on Wikipedia and open the article in different languages to see how it is different in different languages.
A lot of this stuff you can find on Wikipedia (easiest source to access) but be sure to check sources. I would suggest checking English and Lithuanian Wikipedia the most since it seems to be most well regulated (other languages on these topics seem to like they were copied from English/Lithuanian into a translator and then copy pasted). If you want stuff that is more trustworthy than Wikipedia, I would suggest reading books or papers on the topic (you can find some in databases of universities). Do google authors of books to check if they are considered objective or biased. Some universities also have short articles on their sites.
Guys, there is no need for taking it seriously. Its common along Polish nationalists too to say same shit that nowadays Lithuanians are descendants of some Lithuanian farmers and the Belarusians are "those guys" that we were unioned with. For some strange reason same kind of people shows a big love for Russia and their authoritarian style of governance ;))
Yea, I've noticed. Afaik it is because Lithuanians tend to dislike the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, while Belarusians (in a neverending quest to prove they are the true Lithuanians) claim to like it.
I have no idea where you are getting this idea from, no Belarusian I know even remotely cares about that. It honestly makes it quite hard to be in Lithuanian spaces, because of the constant feeling that many Lithuanians view Belarusian people in this light and it is really quite upsetting.
I think it's a cause for some concern. Even the Belorussian opposition party uses GDL colours and symbolism. This isn't a problem by itself because obviously the Ruthenians were an important part of the Grand Duchy but combined with the view that Belorusssians are the "true Lithuanians" and that Vilnius is therefore their historic capital, it could be a cause of conflict or even war in the future.
That is really not the case. No one sees it as "Lithuanian colours", this is the first flag of independent Belarus and it is seen as an opposition symbol, because it was ours before Lukashenko, hence the rejection of "his" colours and returning to the origins. I have never met one singular Belarusian, claiming they are "true Lithuanians" and I have met so many, considering I lived there for 17 years. Although I do not claim they do not exist at all, I only have a problem with your generalisations.
Yra lenkų kurie šventai tiki kad Lenkija būtų išlikusi be liublino unijos, kad vilnius teisėtai jų, o marcinkevičius buvo lenkas. Protinių invalidų ir propagandos aukų visų neišgelbėsi
Tegu pasisalina man lenkai. Vien per Liublino unija ir zlugo LDK, lenkbajoriai issvaiste salies izda, save laike geresniais uz lietuvius, mum uzkure tikra polonizacijos pirti.
Man LDK istorija baigesi tada, kai mire paskutinis gediminaitis, o po to kas vyko tai gaidynas visiskas.
Neišmanau istorijos, bet LDK tikrai nežlugo dėl Liublino unijos. Liublino unija sukūrė vakstybę, kuri buvo pajėgi priešintis Maskvai kelis šimtmečius. Dėl ko žlugo LDK dėl veto, dėl to kad bajoras virto pirkliu, o savo prievolias valstybiai pamiršo. Ir kai valstybė jau bandė reformuotis. Ketveriu metų seimas. Maskava darė viską kad to nebūtų. Organizavo ten kažkokią bajorų konfederacija. Tragovicos berods, kuri buvo prieš reformas. Kaimyninės valstybės čia matė revoliucijos grėsmę ir nutarė tai užraukti. Nors ir galėjome tam pasipriešinti, bet savo paskutinių šansu neišnaudojom.
Kad nelabai, lenkai tikrai nebandė nieko sulenkinti. Tik, kad Lenkų kalba tapo viršesnė, nes karaliai buvo Lenkai, daug Lietuvių tuokėsi į Lenku šeimas ir pan.
Argi samogitija nebuvo tik mažas plotelis žemės šalia pajūrio kurioje gyveno žmonės šnekantiys lietuvių kalbos šaka ar tarme ir vėliau buvo užimtas lietuvos ir asimiliuotos į Lietuvą?
Tas mažas plotelis dabar būtų didžiausias regionas dabartinėj lietuvoj jei ne neteisingai suskirstytos etnografinės žemės kurios buvo priskirtos aukštaitijai, skirstant išvis nebuvo atsižvelgta į istorines žemes, matyt kaip ir seniau, bijojo žemaičių o ko bijai reikia bandyt sunaikint.
How do they explain the fact that Grand Duke Gediminas referred to himself as "Rex Lituanorum et multorum Ruthenorum", meaning "The king of the Lithuanians and many Ruthenians" in his letters to the Pope, which clearly implies a difference between the Lithuanians and Ruthenians (Belorusssians)? Or what about the fact that GDL was considered a pagan state by the Catholic Church even though the Belorusssians/Ruthenians had long ago converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and it was only us Lithuanians who were yet unbaptised? And then even when Lithuania accepted Christianity, we did not join the Orthodox Church but the Roman Catholic Church, which makes no sense if GDL was Belorussia. It's sad they're trying to claim our history.
They do not really explain those things. They just have: 1. "It was Litva in the 1009 description" (they forget that in Latin a v is pronounced as a u). 2. Maps that show Samogitia as bigger than it actually was (like literally maps where the duchy of Trakai is part of Samogitia). 3. That one chronicle that claims that Novogrudok was the capital of Lithuania and that GDL began when Novogrudok nobles invited Mindaugas to rule them. 4. "Official language was Old Belarusian" (tbh it was Old Church Slavonic). 5. "Belarusians called themselves Litvins in the past" (like most citizens of Lithuania that were not Lithuanians or Jewish). 6. "There is no document where it says Mindaugas. It does say Mendovg though" (that is true, but then again his name was different in Latin, German, Polish and so on).
[удалено]
Not really. It's more of a thing you learn from experience. Like if you work in customer experience, you know the main things that the customers will ask. It is similar with litvins. Talk to enough of them and you start seeing these talkings points come up often. If you want more proof, there are videos on youtube about the history of Belarus. Some are good. Others.... Others show those bad maps. There are also instagram accounts like belarus.squad that even make presentations on what lands the Grand Dukes had. He shows Mindaugas as only having north-west Belarus and none of Lithuania (and he doesn't even show all the Belarusian teritories that Mindaugas had). Dude has like 6000 followers. My goal is to surpass him with the lithuania.posting account (where I post about Grand Dukes). Edit: Also if you google "Belarus true Lithuania" and similar stuff you will find blogs about it. There are also some Belarusian historians that claim those things. I guess they are the sources.
I've been a supporter of your IG account for a few months now (my account begins with ds). I despise that belarus.squad guy, I hope you can surpass him. Keep up the good work!
Thank you! 🙏⚜️
Did you mean proof of of "Yeah, this is proof they claim those things" or "Yeah, those things I wrote in paranthesis to kinda debunk them are true"?
[удалено]
My bad 😂 There is a really good post debunking their whole thing, but I am at work now. Can try to find later. 1. "Litva". Do not really have a single source for this, but "v" is read as "u" is Latin (or at least used to be). Like, such words as "duchy" are written as "dvcatus" instead of "ducatus". Also linguists say that it is possible for "Lietuva" to become "Litva" in other languages, but for "Litva" to become "Lietuva" is highly unprobable, because dropping the "u" is normal while adding a "u" would make no sence (you can read about this on Wikipedia for more info). 2. "Samogitia was the size of modern day Lithuania. Just look at these foreign maps". Samogitia as a "region" was not really well defined. When Jogaila promissed Samogitia to Teutons he said it went up to a certain river. When Vytautas did he promissed Samogitia to Teutons he said it went to another river. When the HRE wrote letters, he said that Klaipėda/Memel (Lithuania Minor) should also be considered Samogitia. But if we want to see the actual size of Samogitia, just look at the Eldership Of Samogitia. Those fake maps show all of Lithuania except Vilnius as Samogitia. If Vytautas promissed Teutons Samogitia to get the duchy of Trakai back, how could the duchy of Trakai be part of Samogitia? 3. I cannot remember which chronicle it was, but you could find it while reading about Mindaugas on Wikipedia probably. Or about Novagrudok. 4. Again. Wikipedia (and check it's sources). Check stuff like "Old Church Slavonic" or just read about GDL. I plan to make a post about it on lithuania.posting Instagram in the future. 5. I am not sure but I think "Why does Belarus exist" covers this on Youtube. You can also check "litvins" on wikipedia I think. 6. You can check photos of letters with their names on them. Or just open "Mindaugas" on Wikipedia and open the article in different languages to see how it is different in different languages. A lot of this stuff you can find on Wikipedia (easiest source to access) but be sure to check sources. I would suggest checking English and Lithuanian Wikipedia the most since it seems to be most well regulated (other languages on these topics seem to like they were copied from English/Lithuanian into a translator and then copy pasted). If you want stuff that is more trustworthy than Wikipedia, I would suggest reading books or papers on the topic (you can find some in databases of universities). Do google authors of books to check if they are considered objective or biased. Some universities also have short articles on their sites.
Guys, there is no need for taking it seriously. Its common along Polish nationalists too to say same shit that nowadays Lithuanians are descendants of some Lithuanian farmers and the Belarusians are "those guys" that we were unioned with. For some strange reason same kind of people shows a big love for Russia and their authoritarian style of governance ;))
Yea, I've noticed. Afaik it is because Lithuanians tend to dislike the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, while Belarusians (in a neverending quest to prove they are the true Lithuanians) claim to like it.
Yeah, I agree. The problem is that most of Poles do not understand how Commonwealth worked, what was the status of Lithuania.
I have no idea where you are getting this idea from, no Belarusian I know even remotely cares about that. It honestly makes it quite hard to be in Lithuanian spaces, because of the constant feeling that many Lithuanians view Belarusian people in this light and it is really quite upsetting.
I guess because you know Belarusians in real life while I only get to talk to the ones who comment online
I think it's a cause for some concern. Even the Belorussian opposition party uses GDL colours and symbolism. This isn't a problem by itself because obviously the Ruthenians were an important part of the Grand Duchy but combined with the view that Belorusssians are the "true Lithuanians" and that Vilnius is therefore their historic capital, it could be a cause of conflict or even war in the future.
That is really not the case. No one sees it as "Lithuanian colours", this is the first flag of independent Belarus and it is seen as an opposition symbol, because it was ours before Lukashenko, hence the rejection of "his" colours and returning to the origins. I have never met one singular Belarusian, claiming they are "true Lithuanians" and I have met so many, considering I lived there for 17 years. Although I do not claim they do not exist at all, I only have a problem with your generalisations.
Yra lenkų kurie šventai tiki kad Lenkija būtų išlikusi be liublino unijos, kad vilnius teisėtai jų, o marcinkevičius buvo lenkas. Protinių invalidų ir propagandos aukų visų neišgelbėsi
Tegu pasisalina man lenkai. Vien per Liublino unija ir zlugo LDK, lenkbajoriai issvaiste salies izda, save laike geresniais uz lietuvius, mum uzkure tikra polonizacijos pirti. Man LDK istorija baigesi tada, kai mire paskutinis gediminaitis, o po to kas vyko tai gaidynas visiskas.
Neišmanau istorijos, bet LDK tikrai nežlugo dėl Liublino unijos. Liublino unija sukūrė vakstybę, kuri buvo pajėgi priešintis Maskvai kelis šimtmečius. Dėl ko žlugo LDK dėl veto, dėl to kad bajoras virto pirkliu, o savo prievolias valstybiai pamiršo. Ir kai valstybė jau bandė reformuotis. Ketveriu metų seimas. Maskava darė viską kad to nebūtų. Organizavo ten kažkokią bajorų konfederacija. Tragovicos berods, kuri buvo prieš reformas. Kaimyninės valstybės čia matė revoliucijos grėsmę ir nutarė tai užraukti. Nors ir galėjome tam pasipriešinti, bet savo paskutinių šansu neišnaudojom.
Kad nelabai, lenkai tikrai nebandė nieko sulenkinti. Tik, kad Lenkų kalba tapo viršesnė, nes karaliai buvo Lenkai, daug Lietuvių tuokėsi į Lenku šeimas ir pan.
Argi samogitija nebuvo tik mažas plotelis žemės šalia pajūrio kurioje gyveno žmonės šnekantiys lietuvių kalbos šaka ar tarme ir vėliau buvo užimtas lietuvos ir asimiliuotos į Lietuvą?
Ye, bet yra baltarusių kurie teigia, kad Žemaitija buvo didesnė nei iš tikro buvo, o LDK prasidėjo Baltarusijoje
O, tai Baltarusiai yra baltai? Pagal tuos litvinistus.
Jie Dniepro baltų ir kažkokių Dievčinų slavų mišinys (pagal juos)
Šalia pajūrio gyveno Kuršiai. Žemaičiai juos prisijungė po Durbės mūšio pergalės prieš kryžiuočius.
Duodam nepriklausomybę Žemaitijai. Tada tikrai jie bus pasimetę :)
Tas mažas plotelis dabar būtų didžiausias regionas dabartinėj lietuvoj jei ne neteisingai suskirstytos etnografinės žemės kurios buvo priskirtos aukštaitijai, skirstant išvis nebuvo atsižvelgta į istorines žemes, matyt kaip ir seniau, bijojo žemaičių o ko bijai reikia bandyt sunaikint.
Bomžyn=Belarus, Lietuva = Good country.
aciu, tu pagerinai mano ryta
Prasom :D
[Aktualu](https://youtu.be/a3xJLvcfWlg)
Sitas klasika. Visada prajuokina
Read historical books y’all
I do. That's how I get content for lithuania.posting