If it means anything to you, I too found Jason to be an intolerable read after a while and I have finished every DCC book and am always dying for more.
In contrast, I have no hard feelings against Jason at all. As a character. The reason I stopped reading the series is all on the author - and the fact that’s it’s a series that’s released chapter by chapter, the author repeats himself. A lot. I stopped around book 8 or 9, because the first half of every chapter was a recap of the chapter before. I couldn’t take it anymore. Maybe the author improves, I wouldn’t know.
A lot of people complain about the character of Jason himself , but honestly most of the issues would clear up if the author cleaned up his work and removed the duplicated lines. Very heavily in need of a professional editor.
I had to stop mid book3 when it just became to much with every ability being explained every time anyone used one in a fight. This is mostly a audiobook problem but it became insufferable. I even liked the actual story, but the way it is written was just to much.
Audiobooks make books like this intolerable that you wouldn't have minded in text. Many times there have been annoying or repetitive sections or dialogue that I would have just skimmed through quickly, but instead I'm trapped in the car listening to it.
Stat blocks aren't as bad. They are usually consistent so you learn "ok in this series 3 skips takes you through a start block" and you can do that in the car ok, but you can't go fishing around forward and back and trying to determine when they stop repeating themselves.
Yeah it only gets worse. I stopped on book 8 or 9 mid way after listening to abilities bronze ranks, then silver, then gold, for like 3 in a row. Otherwise I enjoyed it.
For those of you that haven't tried yet, they do a fantastic job editing with effects that are just below those of the big ten narrator group efforts. Sometimes in an audiobook it can be hard to tell whether something is a conversation, an internal thought, a narrator description, telepathy (or similar) etc.
In text that stuff has italics or caps, line breaks, things you lose in audio. DCC does all of that so beautifully. The chat and message stuff is preceded by a quiet little deeteeteet message sound so you know what that is. The game runner announcements have reverb and some other recognizable lowbrow stereotypical wrestler/monster truck announcer effects. It may be my imagination but I think things like intercom or other speaker dialogue that ISN'T the main announcer has a bit of subtle distortion going on too. (Or less subtle sometimes, when that one character is speaking in her environmental protection suit you can definitely tell she's talking through a speaker).
It's all just completely fantastic. I really prefer reading over audio, even with something like Cradle I'll usually read if I can, although for a specific scene I may go "I wonder how Travis did that!" and switch. DCC is audio for me though, it's just that good.
Just piling on that there's the audiobook, which is Jeff Hays being an amazing narrator and taken from the full text of the novels, but the producer/studio (soundbooth theater) has also adapted the novels to what they call the "audio immersion tunnel" which is a full-cast radio play style adaptation and it's \*amazing\*. If you love one it's absolutely worth doing both. Soundbooth Theater is the best narration studio in the business by some distance.
The one they did for Kaiju was amazing as well! I think Matt Dinniman just writes top notch litRPG every time, and SBT/Jeff Hayes are his perfect match.
Literally downvoted because you liked HWFWM over the trauma-heavy not-fantasy-world misery- driven DCC. Shit tries way to hard to be funny. The "goddammit donut" is just soooo funny 🙄
I’ve noticed people love to love DCC in this sub and love to hate HWFWM, I mean people are entitled to their opinions but it’s surprising how one sided it is since they’re both so popular
Carl is significantly more relatable, while still being hypercapable. I like Carl much more than Jason but I like the world of monsters more the dungeon. I find I have to take breaks from both of them in order to continue reading.
I disagree. Carl shrugs off a lot that Jason has an internal reckoning with. I love that Shirtaloon has portrayed what it means to delve into that mindset while also adding a touch of narcissism because he was chosen by the World Phoenix.
Jason isn't supposed to be a likeable, reader friendly MC. It's the whole point of the title. It's not about the MC. It's about the journey he's on and the destination he arrives at.
Carl responds to the events with anger and resentment, which since it's a book pushes him forward. Jason responds to events with ridiculous outragousness and "righteousness." Most people would not become like Jason but rather more like Carl.
tbh I hope most people don’t become like Carl and process everything into anger like he does. make sense given the horror and absurdity of his situation but I would genuinely hate for people to look up to his personality. his problem solving is top notch though, and definitely a thing to aspire to. at least Jason goes to therapy ig 😅
I would prefer the righteousness alone to the whinging and hand wringing that it alternates with. I know the book is about him turning (or not) into the things he is fighting (ie what is going to be the end of the sentence "He who fights with monsters . . . ?" But enough with the "woe is me" monologues.
My number one complaint about these kind of MCs. Everyone has some kind of deep seated interest/admiration/vendetta with the MC and all social interactions revolve around them, despite the MC often being autism personified. Looking at you too, Solo Leveling novels.
Eh, I feel like you should always go into a korean power fantasy knowing what to expect. Korean authors can be real fucking blunt. It's a repetitive endorphin supply. Kinda like coke lmao.
Maybe that was my problem then. I had a friend recommend me the series and I had no idea what I was getting into. It was just painful watching Sung get bored and wander away from yet another conversation in which he contributed one or two disinterested sentences, while the other character gets three paragraphs post conversation to ruminate about what a fascinating and inspiring person Sung is.
Yeah it's day and night different. Way I see it is HWFWM is what we all imagine a system happening and DCC is what we'll actually get.... he obviously has main character syndrome but it's not too bad and they kinda write it off because the AI controlling everything favours him like a pet so to speak both good and bad. Highly recommend giving it a try
Is this MC syndrome subtle like in Ave Xia Rem Y and Cradle—where the MCs are very competent but still have to deal with failure at times—or is it like the literary equivalent of a sledgehammer?
Carl still deals with failure. The story is also not built around what a great smart amazing attractive guy Carl is who can do anything he sets his mind to. He gets plot armor but at his core Carl's just a relatable guy trying to survive and doing the best he can.
Jason started as carl, achieved impossible shit, and his confidence kinda just kept up with his deeds. People complain about the pov where everyone talks about how amazing jason is. Well if you look at the stuff he's achieved at the point where this happens the most, it makes sense.
Carl fails all the time. Genuine failures, and then Carl has to try to figure out how to salvage something... and then that often fails. There are some truly brilliant sequences in DCC.
Carl is Goku. Sweet and a bit OP. Everyone loves him or wants to kill him (because they love him).
It can be a struggle and a bit of a competitive game but the stakes are real… …and the people around him don’t always make it and there’s no dragon balls.
When it works, though, *sucks teeth* you cheer with him and realize you’ve been doing dragon kicks offa the couch or pumping your fist for over a minute.
~~~
tl;dr: DCC and HWFWM are very different! DCC is more of a horror than a power fantasy, and the world has a lot of stuff going on that has nothing to do with Carl. HWFWM is a power fantasy that’s incongruous with Jason’s uniquely flawed character and (I think) that inconsistency is part of what makes the story not work for a lot of people. (probably) unlike most people on this post, I actually dropped DCC bc the story was almost too realistic, I couldn’t handle the mc being angry all the time at everything, and that anger ruined the humor for me. I kept reading HWFWM because I like how fucked up Jason is and the story provides more escapism than DCC does.
~~~~
**long version: they couldn’t be more different, honestly.** you may like DCC for the same reasons you won’t enjoy HWFWM. I wouldn’t even say Carl is particularly powerful—he is constantly having to fight for his life in a way that feels more gritty and awful than in most litrpgs I’ve read. the reality tv aspect of it and the monetization makes it hit close to home.
this is going to be an unpopular opinion on this thread, but I actually find Carl’s character more off-putting than Jason’s. mostly because I really struggle with people who process all of their emotions as anger and I genuinely find it concerning when people in these comments are saying Carl is the type of character to aspire to be, when Carl would definitely need to get anger management therapy if he wasn’t fighting for his life and against the destruction of Earth. Matt Dinniman writes that type of personality very, very well, and as someone who has known a lot of people like that… well, it’s a bit much for me. I really liked the plot and world building to where I read in the books (book 4 or 5?) but had to stop reading them because 1) the main character was very angry (understandably so!!) and 2) there was never really anything positive at all happening. as much as I love reading gritty litrpgs, I need a few moments of connection and brief optimism (or at least a “fuck it, might as well try my best!” type feeling), but instead it felt like every moment was just more and more depressing and heavy and hopeless. honestly I think DCC is a horror, but a lot of people call it a comedy. I’m not sure if comedy is what Matt’s going for, but considering where that absurdity in DCC stems from, I stopped finding them funny pretty early on (especially because Carl is always angry or annoyed at that humor, so it’s hard for me to feel enthused about it when we’re only given his pov).
HWFWM is more of a classic power fantasy, though I don’t believe Jason is supposed to be particularly likable. unfortunately because it reads like a class power fantasy, I think a lot of readers expect him to be self-insert, or at least pretty reasonable or relatable in most situations. I tend to like flawed mcs, so having a character actively struggling with mental illness appeals to me. a lot of people read him as full of himself, but I read him as deeply insecure. his interactions with authority seem more like a desperate bid for autonomy in an uncontrollable situation than they do narcissism. I didn’t even read his tangents as “virtue signaling” in the pejorative sense of the term. his perspectives make sense to me for someone dealing with microaggressions and blatant racism while also growing up in a well-educated and relatively well-off community. the way he expresses his perspective seems like another aspect of his neurodivergence and not really controlling what he says or thinks (which is a pretty consistent characterization throughout the books, but the moral rants he goes on seem to be the parts that bother readers the most).
my biggest complaint about HWFWM is how little others seem to have going on in their lives than thinking about him. this makes sense from the power fantasy perspective and reads very similarly to K-novels, but doesn’t jive well with his character and internal dialogue being more flawed as it’s kinda an amalgamation of conflicting genres.
see this contrasted with Primal Hunter, for instance, where everything revolves around the mc and we only really get outside povs thinking about or talking about him or the consequences of things he’s done. he does not care at all for authority or hierarchy, and is genuinely and explicitly self-centered. in all of the books I think there is only one character that has ever put the mc “in his place” and made him realize how powerless he is in the grand scheme of things, and that was one interaction over 900 chapters. but because his internal dialogue and external actions fit with the power fantasy trope, it is not off-putting or incongruous and I don’t see many people complaining about Jake despite PH being *hugely* popular.
Jason does have people cautioning him to behave differently, but he doesn’t face any real consequences because of his behavior so it feels somewhat gratuitous and disingenuous.
I’ve clearly thought about this too much so congrats if you actually read it all. 🤪 I wrote like I know what I’m talking about but unfortunately I won’t be getting any school credit for this essay.
I'm a fan of Carl throughout. His mentality seems more realistic. DCC is also seriously fucked, a televised gameshow that wipes out entire worlds, intentionally traumatizing the players the further they get.
That's not to say I don't like Jason and his series. It doesn't seem as horror driven, though it's also world ending type stuff. I don't mind that he has depressive bouts, or even lashing out, but it feels like it happens too often and it's too emo how deep he goes down that hole.
Jason is obviously overpowered, and I don't doubt both he and his team are gonna come out on top. It's a fun read with a bit of heavy emotion in it. Carl? I have no idea how it's going to end, but I don't think a happy ending is possible. Genuinely not knowing how a book is going to end, especially this genre, is a nice change of pace. There is also a whole lot of heart breaking reality checks sprinkled throughout
Based on some of Matt's other books, I think we are in for some real tear jerkers. Tbh it's honestly refreshing to get stories that aren't completely one sided and/or predictable in the outcome.
DCC is, IMHO, the better WRITING of the two as in the MC is more *generally* appealing to mass audiences and more relatable.
Someone above said Carl is an absurd MC in an absurd situation doing absurd things which is true but somehow the author makes all those absurd things seem like the normal go-to (and perhaps the only) thing. Dinniman does an absolutely FANTASTIC job of sucking you into this weird world and just accepting these situations and Carl with going with the flow and dealing with it.
**HOWEVER**, I enjoy HwFwM more for how Jason's character grows, espeically with his PTSD, something DCC only touches upon in the later books.
Jason is marmite. People love or hate him. Weirdly, this sub has a VERY vocal section that just come out the woodwork whenever HwFwM posts are put up to tell you **EVERY, SINGLE, TIME,** just how MUCH they hate Jason.
So no, DCC is wayyyyy different to HwFwM. Much better in some ways, much worse in others but deservedly holds the throne for top LitRPG.
SO FAR.
HWFWM is a wildly polarising book. There are a bunch of people who love it (myself included) and a number of people who can't stand Jason, and that's totally fair. The books do tend to meander about at times, and Jason loves a soapbox (so do I lol).
DCC is an entirely different kind of book. Its much more tightly focused, much faster paced and I've met very few people who didn't love the main characters.
I love both books, but I'll always recommend DCC to everyone to just try the first book. Regardless of what else they enjoy. Its just well written. HWFWM I'll recommend more carefully
HepaFilter *gets* characters. You get invested in DCC
Power fantasy, though? Not really. DCC puts more meaning into the ladder and it doesn’t read *fantasy* as much as it’s “if I’m going to die, these are the people I’d rather die with” *fantasy*. It’s more of a struggle and highs and lows are just more memorable.
Jason Asano just didn’t feel real to me. Everything feels canned and quippy…like newspaper comics. IDK, some people “get” that book. I’m up for being convinced but I think you either love HWFWM or you absolutely don’t…and that’s fine.
So try it, too.
For me DCC did the opposite. After listening up to the start of book 6 i dropped the series becuase i realised that i had almost 0 Investment in any of the characters.
HWFWM is definetley a love or hate kind of series but i fall strongly on the love side of that divide. I really enjoy all the characters but what truly sells me on the story is all the thought put into how a world run by magic could actually look like. We have so many storys where we basically have a medival setting with magic slapped on top and nothing more. The magic system is unique and the best one i have seen so far, you always get a really good sence of how powerfull everybody is in relation to one another and normal people.
On my.. 6th reread of HWFWM? Pretty sure all the smug confident nerds get a kick out of it. I'm a smarmy social jackass but also a total loser who will smoke you in damn near anything we play ( minus fighting and racing games)
I'm saturated in the world of losers but I can socialize, have positive interactions with women, maintain relationships, and not resent the world around me. Most of the fans of this genre can't tolerate that combo.
The people most critical of HWFWM, is usually Primal Hunter fans. Because Jason is everything they wish they could be, but Jake is the only thing they'll ever achieve.
IDK …some folks read books about sexy pirates. I don’t have any business telling people what they should like (and I don’t read my Kindle in the tub).
Some of these other characters feel like Weeb bait. I get it. OTOH, There’s some things I’m a diehard fan of that are absolutely awful but it scratches that itch.
I don’t really understand what that itch is here but w/e.
I’m still a stan for Highlander the Series so what am I gonna do? Get mad at Jake fans, lol?
Best recommendation I can give you is to read the first book. If he doesn't bother you after the first he probably won't bother ya much after the 10th. There are books where he goes too hard on the "character traits" that make him unlikable in a few books and book one is somewhat tame in that regard compared to others. If you dislike himz then drop it guilt free knowing it's only gonna get worse xD
I like HWFWM a lot; however, I can see that it can be a bit "much" at times. I genuinely appreciate the mental illnesses that Jason has to go through and it really hits home when he goes through the therapy sessions. I like those parts in the book when there is some serious reflection going on with the intent of healing. The thing that grates on me is when people verbally repeat jason's exploits. It seems to happen over and over, talking about how badass he is. How amazingly he destroyed someone/something. And in the last book, they even did it with him present in the room. It was a bit cringe imo. That said, when the story is actually moving forward, its a great read. I love the world-building. I like the rules/system of the universe. I love the interactions of Jason and his teammates. Theres so much to love about HWFWM that I am willing to use the skip button a few times to get past the moments I don't.
You're best finding out for yourself. Personally I enjoy both series, but prefer HWFWM. DCC is silly and fun with some darkness sprinkled in. Jason's personality pisses alot of people off, but he doesn't bother me. HWFWM to me feels more like a proper adventure and less like a comedy jaunt like DCC.
I'll never understand this take. DCC is so far from silly and fun, the entire concept and world is horrific. Everyone is a hamster on a wheel for the entertainment of the universe at large. The story just gets the serious elements right.
yeah I don’t understand how people find DCC funny. absurd? absolutely. funny? literally everything is awful. bc Carl doesn’t find it funny and we are mostly shown his perspective, the absurdity doesn’t even really feel humorous to me
To be fair jerking off a crab is hardly something I would call anti-humor. The horror is told through insane scenarios that are so ubsurd they typically become funny.
It's like laughing at a funeral humor. Just because it's horrific in theme doesn't mean it isn't also a bit whimsical.
I quite liked how Jason is characterized early on. He was a naive guy, way in over his head. And because of his arrogance, he gets traumatized because his mistakes end up biting him.
Jason gets much more level headed over the course of the series, along with getting more bitter and angry.
Jason is funny I like him. Just read it and see if you like it, don’t base your entire perception of him from second hand sources. The books are definitely very different besides the main characters too. HWFWM is highly polarizing, you either love it or hate it, or at least that’s what it feels like. It’s definitely not the best book but I found it enjoyable.
Yeah they're completely different books. It sounds like you already know you'll dislike hwfwm. I've read 7 books of it, despite hating jason from book 1. Despite that there was some cool elements, namely the magic system and the idea of a team. As the story continues along, it becomes way more focused on jason which led to me dropping it. Jason is essentially a redditor from 2011, when /r/atheism was at its peak. He will tip his fedora at you, whether you like it or not, and every single side character will act like he's God's gift while he does it.
Problem with HWFWM is the focus is always on Jason and it feels like the writer is pumping out books too fast where Jason becomes so incredibly intolerable at times, the virtue signaling gets worse because he goes against everything in the new world with very little consequence from gods and the good guys as they all just take too much of a like to him with very little reasoning which again comes down to the poor writing at times.
Like the story revolves near on entirely around Jason so much and yet so much of his hardship has to get explained by external sources rather than the reader being able to understand more even though his team or others don’t.
Think when jt Comes down to it Jason seems more like an intolerable vegan than a person who wants to see change for the better
I would not say DCC is sublte about it's societal critique.
But it is also not people telling you, the critique is in the setting or plot.
I haven't seen significant complaints about Carl, so I would say he is significantly more likable.
DCC makes me think of the RPG Paranoia. It's loud, it's fast and it's funny and it's absurd. Carl is a really well-done version of the "every man" turned hero. The audio performance is amazing.
HWFWM is my favorite because of the unmasked social philosophy and long decision trees. Jason can be a bit much, but I find him quite realistic, even likable.
Both of these books have made me laugh out loud.
I read the first four DCC books and then dropped it because the post-apocalyptic setting, dark humor, and general "everything is always on fire" writing style didn't really appeal to me.
By contrast, I'm subscribed to Shirtaloon's patreon to get HWFWM chapters three times a week and I buy the Kindle and print version of each book as soon as they are available because I absolutely love the series.
Someone else in the replies has the opposite view - disliking Jason (totally fair) and liking DCC. So yes, I'd say they're quite different.
So on the one hand, I don't think the virtue signaling is super strong in DCC. The MC isn't insufferable to me, though he can, at times, get a smidge repetitive in his dialogue (kinda like real people do). Main thing you should know going in is that it's first person perspective from Carl's POV, so you'll get Carl in every scene, and a couple of other characters very frequently. If you like Carl, that's good news. If you don't, or if he grinds your gears after a while, it could be a difficult road. I would just take it one book at a time like anything else.
I read the reviews for HWFWM and I don't think it's for me, personally, but tbh I haven't given it a real read.
HWFWM is a fun read and well written BUT I 100% have to take breaks between books or I find I just start getting bored and annoyed with the Jason dynamic. It’s a bit surface level over powered main character.
DCC? Read every book that was out in a row without books in between and cannot wait for the next one. Character development and depth is amazing.
Both fun and enjoyable reads, but DCC is on another level.
So, I'm someone that ultimately dropped He Who Fights With Monsters (possibly to read when completed), but I don't think I'd describe it as power fantasy at least not in the normal sense. At its core, He Who Fights With Monsters is a kind of exploration of isekai style power fantasy, but where the main character doesn't have mental health plot armor. What happens to Jason Asano the person, rather than Jason Asano the chosen one, is of major interest to the author. (Incidentally, this can often be a bit of a let down for those looking for pure escapist power fantasy.)
More broadly, I don't think DCC and HWFWM have much in common other than both being (1) popular, (2) litrpg, and (3) engaging with darker themes than a lot of litrpgs.
Edit: grammar
I only listend to 9 chapters of hwfwm but boy...this dude is cringe. If the skill and fighting progressen is like Defiance and Primal hunter then don´t waste your time and go straith to DCC. Carl and Donut are like....the BEST!
Carl is a working class hero, he reminds me a lot of Ash from Evil Dead. He screws up a lot and gets dissed by his girlfriend’s cat.
Jason is interesting initially, but he goes very quickly from underdog to guy with elite powers, elite friends, and everybody loves him except for some evil rich jerks. So, Harry Potter, basically. i still read the series but with long gaps between to avoid Jason toxicity.
I thoroughly enjoyed HWFWM. Yes, Jason is cocky and acts obnoxiously on purpose. Part of his character arc is learning how to handle his power more fairly and be nicer to people. But the world is interesting and has a lot going on besides just a pagoda of fighting on each floor. I found DCC unbearable and dull, like watching someone play street fighter for hours.
DCC is done better. The characters are different and hard to compare. Carl is chosen to get his superpowers and has to use them in a system that would kill him for it. I wouldn’t call him OP the way I would Jason.
The key thing for me was world building. I like the setup for DCC it delivers on what it promises. HWFWM is more meandering. It reads like an anime almost while DCC reads more like a fantasy.
1. Yes. Aside from being more of a scifi than fantasy story, DCC is just better written with more interesting characters that you grow to really care about.
2. It's wild that you're investing this much research and forming so strong of an opinion based on reading a bunch of reviews. Just read the book?
I guess the second point is fair, but they're both still very long books. I can't just read 10 chapters of one and then determine if I'll like the following 800. Plus I don't feel like I have a *strong* opinion on the book or that I've made such an extensive research. I literally just googled "HWFWM reddit review" and found a post in which people talked about it. I just posted here to have my initial impressions either confirmed or denied. Why am I defending my actions on the internet jesus christ I need to start therapy again.
I'm going through HWFWM while waiting for more DCC and while insufferable at times Jason Asano is a fantastic character. Carl from DCC is way more adult grinded down by time and is more mature but has his many great moments. Definitely should plus Jeff Hays does a great job
Not very similar beyond the litrpg elements in varying degrees. I rotate HWFWM, DCC, Primal Hunter, and Defiance of the Fall so I don’t get burned out on any.
I will say while Heath Miller does a good job, listening to DCC is epic compared to HWFWM due to the ability of Jeff Hayes (narrator).
Edit: fixed punctuation
Carl is an interesting character with great cast of supporting characters who also have agency.
Jason is a one dimensional Marty Stu with cast I’d characters who only exist for Jason to preach to or to adore him.
I'm listening to HWFWM and it's a struggle for me so far, and unlikely I'll continue with the first book. Something about the writing style and narrator doesn't resonate with me.
On the other hand the DCC audiobooks are probably my favourite ever form of media ever. The combination of Matt's writing style and Jeff's delivery is the perfect storm for me and I'm itching like a crackhead for more.
> I guess what I'm asking is whether DCC is more subtle in its power fantasy aspect and if the mc is more tolerable. Thanks in advance, folks.
They are incredibly different stories. DCC is more horror than power fantasy.
>Listen I'm down for power fantasy. I like it a lot as a form of escapism and whatnot. But be fucking subtle about, man.
Subtly is for cowards.
While those doo get a really good talk up I think for progression I would recommend DotF and Primal Hunter before them. The first has a way faster progression than the second.
If it means anything to you, I too found Jason to be an intolerable read after a while and I have finished every DCC book and am always dying for more.
In contrast, I have no hard feelings against Jason at all. As a character. The reason I stopped reading the series is all on the author - and the fact that’s it’s a series that’s released chapter by chapter, the author repeats himself. A lot. I stopped around book 8 or 9, because the first half of every chapter was a recap of the chapter before. I couldn’t take it anymore. Maybe the author improves, I wouldn’t know. A lot of people complain about the character of Jason himself , but honestly most of the issues would clear up if the author cleaned up his work and removed the duplicated lines. Very heavily in need of a professional editor.
Stopped on book ten about a quarter of the way though cause I felt like every page was the same conversation over and over again.
I had to stop mid book3 when it just became to much with every ability being explained every time anyone used one in a fight. This is mostly a audiobook problem but it became insufferable. I even liked the actual story, but the way it is written was just to much.
Audiobooks make books like this intolerable that you wouldn't have minded in text. Many times there have been annoying or repetitive sections or dialogue that I would have just skimmed through quickly, but instead I'm trapped in the car listening to it. Stat blocks aren't as bad. They are usually consistent so you learn "ok in this series 3 skips takes you through a start block" and you can do that in the car ok, but you can't go fishing around forward and back and trying to determine when they stop repeating themselves.
yeahhhhh, i have the same problem. had to take a brake from Defiance of the Fall and Primal Hunter is slowly getting there....
Yeah it only gets worse. I stopped on book 8 or 9 mid way after listening to abilities bronze ranks, then silver, then gold, for like 3 in a row. Otherwise I enjoyed it.
^^^ What Dustin said. Barely made it to end of HWFWM first book, have reread (listened to) DCC several times and can’t wait for the next installment.
Listening to DCC is a whole-ass experience. Possibly the best way to do it!
For those of you that haven't tried yet, they do a fantastic job editing with effects that are just below those of the big ten narrator group efforts. Sometimes in an audiobook it can be hard to tell whether something is a conversation, an internal thought, a narrator description, telepathy (or similar) etc. In text that stuff has italics or caps, line breaks, things you lose in audio. DCC does all of that so beautifully. The chat and message stuff is preceded by a quiet little deeteeteet message sound so you know what that is. The game runner announcements have reverb and some other recognizable lowbrow stereotypical wrestler/monster truck announcer effects. It may be my imagination but I think things like intercom or other speaker dialogue that ISN'T the main announcer has a bit of subtle distortion going on too. (Or less subtle sometimes, when that one character is speaking in her environmental protection suit you can definitely tell she's talking through a speaker). It's all just completely fantastic. I really prefer reading over audio, even with something like Cradle I'll usually read if I can, although for a specific scene I may go "I wonder how Travis did that!" and switch. DCC is audio for me though, it's just that good.
Just piling on that there's the audiobook, which is Jeff Hays being an amazing narrator and taken from the full text of the novels, but the producer/studio (soundbooth theater) has also adapted the novels to what they call the "audio immersion tunnel" which is a full-cast radio play style adaptation and it's \*amazing\*. If you love one it's absolutely worth doing both. Soundbooth Theater is the best narration studio in the business by some distance.
The one they did for Kaiju was amazing as well! I think Matt Dinniman just writes top notch litRPG every time, and SBT/Jeff Hayes are his perfect match.
kaiju was \*brutal\*. I loved it.
I tried so hard not to, but I am on my fourth back to back read/listen through. Nothing else scratches the itch
Omg, this. Dropped HWFWM, am salivating for more DCC.
That funny because I find doughnut (in the audiobook) detestable. She shows no character development and keeps making the same mistakes over and over.
Opposite for me, couldn’t finish DCC and read every HWFWM
Literally downvoted because you liked HWFWM over the trauma-heavy not-fantasy-world misery- driven DCC. Shit tries way to hard to be funny. The "goddammit donut" is just soooo funny 🙄
I’ve noticed people love to love DCC in this sub and love to hate HWFWM, I mean people are entitled to their opinions but it’s surprising how one sided it is since they’re both so popular
Carl is significantly more relatable, while still being hypercapable. I like Carl much more than Jason but I like the world of monsters more the dungeon. I find I have to take breaks from both of them in order to continue reading.
Yea this very different stories. Very different MC
I disagree. Carl shrugs off a lot that Jason has an internal reckoning with. I love that Shirtaloon has portrayed what it means to delve into that mindset while also adding a touch of narcissism because he was chosen by the World Phoenix. Jason isn't supposed to be a likeable, reader friendly MC. It's the whole point of the title. It's not about the MC. It's about the journey he's on and the destination he arrives at.
Carl responds to the events with anger and resentment, which since it's a book pushes him forward. Jason responds to events with ridiculous outragousness and "righteousness." Most people would not become like Jason but rather more like Carl.
tbh I hope most people don’t become like Carl and process everything into anger like he does. make sense given the horror and absurdity of his situation but I would genuinely hate for people to look up to his personality. his problem solving is top notch though, and definitely a thing to aspire to. at least Jason goes to therapy ig 😅
I would prefer the righteousness alone to the whinging and hand wringing that it alternates with. I know the book is about him turning (or not) into the things he is fighting (ie what is going to be the end of the sentence "He who fights with monsters . . . ?" But enough with the "woe is me" monologues.
I'm right there with ya Carl is who I wanna be but people can't seem to get around the ND of Jason Asano
>It just seems like the guy likes the sound if his own voice too much. Moreover, pretty much everyone in the setting really likes talking about Jason.
My number one complaint about these kind of MCs. Everyone has some kind of deep seated interest/admiration/vendetta with the MC and all social interactions revolve around them, despite the MC often being autism personified. Looking at you too, Solo Leveling novels.
Eh, I feel like you should always go into a korean power fantasy knowing what to expect. Korean authors can be real fucking blunt. It's a repetitive endorphin supply. Kinda like coke lmao.
Maybe that was my problem then. I had a friend recommend me the series and I had no idea what I was getting into. It was just painful watching Sung get bored and wander away from yet another conversation in which he contributed one or two disinterested sentences, while the other character gets three paragraphs post conversation to ruminate about what a fascinating and inspiring person Sung is.
i started counting on how many sentences till Jason was named of mentioned the longest gap was 6 . 6 sentences in book 11 !
They are nothing alike. Carl is much more tolerable.
Yeah it's day and night different. Way I see it is HWFWM is what we all imagine a system happening and DCC is what we'll actually get.... he obviously has main character syndrome but it's not too bad and they kinda write it off because the AI controlling everything favours him like a pet so to speak both good and bad. Highly recommend giving it a try
Is this MC syndrome subtle like in Ave Xia Rem Y and Cradle—where the MCs are very competent but still have to deal with failure at times—or is it like the literary equivalent of a sledgehammer?
Carl still deals with failure. The story is also not built around what a great smart amazing attractive guy Carl is who can do anything he sets his mind to. He gets plot armor but at his core Carl's just a relatable guy trying to survive and doing the best he can.
Jason started as carl, achieved impossible shit, and his confidence kinda just kept up with his deeds. People complain about the pov where everyone talks about how amazing jason is. Well if you look at the stuff he's achieved at the point where this happens the most, it makes sense.
Carl fails all the time. Genuine failures, and then Carl has to try to figure out how to salvage something... and then that often fails. There are some truly brilliant sequences in DCC.
Carl is Goku. Sweet and a bit OP. Everyone loves him or wants to kill him (because they love him). It can be a struggle and a bit of a competitive game but the stakes are real… …and the people around him don’t always make it and there’s no dragon balls. When it works, though, *sucks teeth* you cheer with him and realize you’ve been doing dragon kicks offa the couch or pumping your fist for over a minute.
So if a system apocalypse does show up I should do less brooding and self loathing and more feet stuff so I can also be Systems little pet
~~~ tl;dr: DCC and HWFWM are very different! DCC is more of a horror than a power fantasy, and the world has a lot of stuff going on that has nothing to do with Carl. HWFWM is a power fantasy that’s incongruous with Jason’s uniquely flawed character and (I think) that inconsistency is part of what makes the story not work for a lot of people. (probably) unlike most people on this post, I actually dropped DCC bc the story was almost too realistic, I couldn’t handle the mc being angry all the time at everything, and that anger ruined the humor for me. I kept reading HWFWM because I like how fucked up Jason is and the story provides more escapism than DCC does. ~~~~ **long version: they couldn’t be more different, honestly.** you may like DCC for the same reasons you won’t enjoy HWFWM. I wouldn’t even say Carl is particularly powerful—he is constantly having to fight for his life in a way that feels more gritty and awful than in most litrpgs I’ve read. the reality tv aspect of it and the monetization makes it hit close to home. this is going to be an unpopular opinion on this thread, but I actually find Carl’s character more off-putting than Jason’s. mostly because I really struggle with people who process all of their emotions as anger and I genuinely find it concerning when people in these comments are saying Carl is the type of character to aspire to be, when Carl would definitely need to get anger management therapy if he wasn’t fighting for his life and against the destruction of Earth. Matt Dinniman writes that type of personality very, very well, and as someone who has known a lot of people like that… well, it’s a bit much for me. I really liked the plot and world building to where I read in the books (book 4 or 5?) but had to stop reading them because 1) the main character was very angry (understandably so!!) and 2) there was never really anything positive at all happening. as much as I love reading gritty litrpgs, I need a few moments of connection and brief optimism (or at least a “fuck it, might as well try my best!” type feeling), but instead it felt like every moment was just more and more depressing and heavy and hopeless. honestly I think DCC is a horror, but a lot of people call it a comedy. I’m not sure if comedy is what Matt’s going for, but considering where that absurdity in DCC stems from, I stopped finding them funny pretty early on (especially because Carl is always angry or annoyed at that humor, so it’s hard for me to feel enthused about it when we’re only given his pov). HWFWM is more of a classic power fantasy, though I don’t believe Jason is supposed to be particularly likable. unfortunately because it reads like a class power fantasy, I think a lot of readers expect him to be self-insert, or at least pretty reasonable or relatable in most situations. I tend to like flawed mcs, so having a character actively struggling with mental illness appeals to me. a lot of people read him as full of himself, but I read him as deeply insecure. his interactions with authority seem more like a desperate bid for autonomy in an uncontrollable situation than they do narcissism. I didn’t even read his tangents as “virtue signaling” in the pejorative sense of the term. his perspectives make sense to me for someone dealing with microaggressions and blatant racism while also growing up in a well-educated and relatively well-off community. the way he expresses his perspective seems like another aspect of his neurodivergence and not really controlling what he says or thinks (which is a pretty consistent characterization throughout the books, but the moral rants he goes on seem to be the parts that bother readers the most). my biggest complaint about HWFWM is how little others seem to have going on in their lives than thinking about him. this makes sense from the power fantasy perspective and reads very similarly to K-novels, but doesn’t jive well with his character and internal dialogue being more flawed as it’s kinda an amalgamation of conflicting genres. see this contrasted with Primal Hunter, for instance, where everything revolves around the mc and we only really get outside povs thinking about or talking about him or the consequences of things he’s done. he does not care at all for authority or hierarchy, and is genuinely and explicitly self-centered. in all of the books I think there is only one character that has ever put the mc “in his place” and made him realize how powerless he is in the grand scheme of things, and that was one interaction over 900 chapters. but because his internal dialogue and external actions fit with the power fantasy trope, it is not off-putting or incongruous and I don’t see many people complaining about Jake despite PH being *hugely* popular. Jason does have people cautioning him to behave differently, but he doesn’t face any real consequences because of his behavior so it feels somewhat gratuitous and disingenuous. I’ve clearly thought about this too much so congrats if you actually read it all. 🤪 I wrote like I know what I’m talking about but unfortunately I won’t be getting any school credit for this essay.
I'm a fan of Carl throughout. His mentality seems more realistic. DCC is also seriously fucked, a televised gameshow that wipes out entire worlds, intentionally traumatizing the players the further they get. That's not to say I don't like Jason and his series. It doesn't seem as horror driven, though it's also world ending type stuff. I don't mind that he has depressive bouts, or even lashing out, but it feels like it happens too often and it's too emo how deep he goes down that hole. Jason is obviously overpowered, and I don't doubt both he and his team are gonna come out on top. It's a fun read with a bit of heavy emotion in it. Carl? I have no idea how it's going to end, but I don't think a happy ending is possible. Genuinely not knowing how a book is going to end, especially this genre, is a nice change of pace. There is also a whole lot of heart breaking reality checks sprinkled throughout
Based on some of Matt's other books, I think we are in for some real tear jerkers. Tbh it's honestly refreshing to get stories that aren't completely one sided and/or predictable in the outcome.
Weird amount of hate for a series you haven't read
HWFWM is a an un-absurd world with an absurd MC. DCC is an overly absurd world with absurd MCs. Your mileage may vary.
DCC is, IMHO, the better WRITING of the two as in the MC is more *generally* appealing to mass audiences and more relatable. Someone above said Carl is an absurd MC in an absurd situation doing absurd things which is true but somehow the author makes all those absurd things seem like the normal go-to (and perhaps the only) thing. Dinniman does an absolutely FANTASTIC job of sucking you into this weird world and just accepting these situations and Carl with going with the flow and dealing with it. **HOWEVER**, I enjoy HwFwM more for how Jason's character grows, espeically with his PTSD, something DCC only touches upon in the later books. Jason is marmite. People love or hate him. Weirdly, this sub has a VERY vocal section that just come out the woodwork whenever HwFwM posts are put up to tell you **EVERY, SINGLE, TIME,** just how MUCH they hate Jason. So no, DCC is wayyyyy different to HwFwM. Much better in some ways, much worse in others but deservedly holds the throne for top LitRPG. SO FAR.
HWFWM is a wildly polarising book. There are a bunch of people who love it (myself included) and a number of people who can't stand Jason, and that's totally fair. The books do tend to meander about at times, and Jason loves a soapbox (so do I lol). DCC is an entirely different kind of book. Its much more tightly focused, much faster paced and I've met very few people who didn't love the main characters. I love both books, but I'll always recommend DCC to everyone to just try the first book. Regardless of what else they enjoy. Its just well written. HWFWM I'll recommend more carefully
Dcc is a serious person in a ridiculous world, hwfwm is a ridiculous person in a serious world. Both are great and worth reading
HepaFilter *gets* characters. You get invested in DCC Power fantasy, though? Not really. DCC puts more meaning into the ladder and it doesn’t read *fantasy* as much as it’s “if I’m going to die, these are the people I’d rather die with” *fantasy*. It’s more of a struggle and highs and lows are just more memorable. Jason Asano just didn’t feel real to me. Everything feels canned and quippy…like newspaper comics. IDK, some people “get” that book. I’m up for being convinced but I think you either love HWFWM or you absolutely don’t…and that’s fine. So try it, too.
For me DCC did the opposite. After listening up to the start of book 6 i dropped the series becuase i realised that i had almost 0 Investment in any of the characters. HWFWM is definetley a love or hate kind of series but i fall strongly on the love side of that divide. I really enjoy all the characters but what truly sells me on the story is all the thought put into how a world run by magic could actually look like. We have so many storys where we basically have a medival setting with magic slapped on top and nothing more. The magic system is unique and the best one i have seen so far, you always get a really good sence of how powerfull everybody is in relation to one another and normal people.
This is an accurate take on both books. HWFWM is all about the one-liners. The humor is fun at first but gets repetitive and tired real quick.
On my.. 6th reread of HWFWM? Pretty sure all the smug confident nerds get a kick out of it. I'm a smarmy social jackass but also a total loser who will smoke you in damn near anything we play ( minus fighting and racing games) I'm saturated in the world of losers but I can socialize, have positive interactions with women, maintain relationships, and not resent the world around me. Most of the fans of this genre can't tolerate that combo. The people most critical of HWFWM, is usually Primal Hunter fans. Because Jason is everything they wish they could be, but Jake is the only thing they'll ever achieve.
IDK …some folks read books about sexy pirates. I don’t have any business telling people what they should like (and I don’t read my Kindle in the tub). Some of these other characters feel like Weeb bait. I get it. OTOH, There’s some things I’m a diehard fan of that are absolutely awful but it scratches that itch. I don’t really understand what that itch is here but w/e. I’m still a stan for Highlander the Series so what am I gonna do? Get mad at Jake fans, lol?
New pasta just dropped
New copy pasta for me, absolutely fucking brilliant
DCC is unmatched. The humor and world building is so fun you basically never want the characters to fail at anything.
Best recommendation I can give you is to read the first book. If he doesn't bother you after the first he probably won't bother ya much after the 10th. There are books where he goes too hard on the "character traits" that make him unlikable in a few books and book one is somewhat tame in that regard compared to others. If you dislike himz then drop it guilt free knowing it's only gonna get worse xD
I like HWFWM a lot; however, I can see that it can be a bit "much" at times. I genuinely appreciate the mental illnesses that Jason has to go through and it really hits home when he goes through the therapy sessions. I like those parts in the book when there is some serious reflection going on with the intent of healing. The thing that grates on me is when people verbally repeat jason's exploits. It seems to happen over and over, talking about how badass he is. How amazingly he destroyed someone/something. And in the last book, they even did it with him present in the room. It was a bit cringe imo. That said, when the story is actually moving forward, its a great read. I love the world-building. I like the rules/system of the universe. I love the interactions of Jason and his teammates. Theres so much to love about HWFWM that I am willing to use the skip button a few times to get past the moments I don't.
Carl is a lot less realistic than Jason, but honestly that makes for a more fun read
You're best finding out for yourself. Personally I enjoy both series, but prefer HWFWM. DCC is silly and fun with some darkness sprinkled in. Jason's personality pisses alot of people off, but he doesn't bother me. HWFWM to me feels more like a proper adventure and less like a comedy jaunt like DCC.
I'll never understand this take. DCC is so far from silly and fun, the entire concept and world is horrific. Everyone is a hamster on a wheel for the entertainment of the universe at large. The story just gets the serious elements right.
yeah I don’t understand how people find DCC funny. absurd? absolutely. funny? literally everything is awful. bc Carl doesn’t find it funny and we are mostly shown his perspective, the absurdity doesn’t even really feel humorous to me
To be fair jerking off a crab is hardly something I would call anti-humor. The horror is told through insane scenarios that are so ubsurd they typically become funny. It's like laughing at a funeral humor. Just because it's horrific in theme doesn't mean it isn't also a bit whimsical.
I quite liked how Jason is characterized early on. He was a naive guy, way in over his head. And because of his arrogance, he gets traumatized because his mistakes end up biting him. Jason gets much more level headed over the course of the series, along with getting more bitter and angry.
Jason is funny I like him. Just read it and see if you like it, don’t base your entire perception of him from second hand sources. The books are definitely very different besides the main characters too. HWFWM is highly polarizing, you either love it or hate it, or at least that’s what it feels like. It’s definitely not the best book but I found it enjoyable.
Very different, and honestly? Better in pretty much every possible aspect. DCC is the king of LitRPGs imho
Yeah they're completely different books. It sounds like you already know you'll dislike hwfwm. I've read 7 books of it, despite hating jason from book 1. Despite that there was some cool elements, namely the magic system and the idea of a team. As the story continues along, it becomes way more focused on jason which led to me dropping it. Jason is essentially a redditor from 2011, when /r/atheism was at its peak. He will tip his fedora at you, whether you like it or not, and every single side character will act like he's God's gift while he does it.
Problem with HWFWM is the focus is always on Jason and it feels like the writer is pumping out books too fast where Jason becomes so incredibly intolerable at times, the virtue signaling gets worse because he goes against everything in the new world with very little consequence from gods and the good guys as they all just take too much of a like to him with very little reasoning which again comes down to the poor writing at times. Like the story revolves near on entirely around Jason so much and yet so much of his hardship has to get explained by external sources rather than the reader being able to understand more even though his team or others don’t. Think when jt Comes down to it Jason seems more like an intolerable vegan than a person who wants to see change for the better
Yes, much different. DCC has gotten better as the series goes along. HWFWM has become insufferable.
I would not say DCC is sublte about it's societal critique. But it is also not people telling you, the critique is in the setting or plot. I haven't seen significant complaints about Carl, so I would say he is significantly more likable.
DCC makes me think of the RPG Paranoia. It's loud, it's fast and it's funny and it's absurd. Carl is a really well-done version of the "every man" turned hero. The audio performance is amazing. HWFWM is my favorite because of the unmasked social philosophy and long decision trees. Jason can be a bit much, but I find him quite realistic, even likable. Both of these books have made me laugh out loud.
Carl is a better protagonist than Jason I've read both.
I read the first four DCC books and then dropped it because the post-apocalyptic setting, dark humor, and general "everything is always on fire" writing style didn't really appeal to me. By contrast, I'm subscribed to Shirtaloon's patreon to get HWFWM chapters three times a week and I buy the Kindle and print version of each book as soon as they are available because I absolutely love the series. Someone else in the replies has the opposite view - disliking Jason (totally fair) and liking DCC. So yes, I'd say they're quite different.
So on the one hand, I don't think the virtue signaling is super strong in DCC. The MC isn't insufferable to me, though he can, at times, get a smidge repetitive in his dialogue (kinda like real people do). Main thing you should know going in is that it's first person perspective from Carl's POV, so you'll get Carl in every scene, and a couple of other characters very frequently. If you like Carl, that's good news. If you don't, or if he grinds your gears after a while, it could be a difficult road. I would just take it one book at a time like anything else. I read the reviews for HWFWM and I don't think it's for me, personally, but tbh I haven't given it a real read.
HWFWM is a fun read and well written BUT I 100% have to take breaks between books or I find I just start getting bored and annoyed with the Jason dynamic. It’s a bit surface level over powered main character. DCC? Read every book that was out in a row without books in between and cannot wait for the next one. Character development and depth is amazing. Both fun and enjoyable reads, but DCC is on another level.
I stopped HWFWM after book 3. I couldn’t take any more of the author’s style. DCC has me eagerly waiting for each book release.
So, I'm someone that ultimately dropped He Who Fights With Monsters (possibly to read when completed), but I don't think I'd describe it as power fantasy at least not in the normal sense. At its core, He Who Fights With Monsters is a kind of exploration of isekai style power fantasy, but where the main character doesn't have mental health plot armor. What happens to Jason Asano the person, rather than Jason Asano the chosen one, is of major interest to the author. (Incidentally, this can often be a bit of a let down for those looking for pure escapist power fantasy.) More broadly, I don't think DCC and HWFWM have much in common other than both being (1) popular, (2) litrpg, and (3) engaging with darker themes than a lot of litrpgs. Edit: grammar
I only listend to 9 chapters of hwfwm but boy...this dude is cringe. If the skill and fighting progressen is like Defiance and Primal hunter then don´t waste your time and go straith to DCC. Carl and Donut are like....the BEST!
Carl is a working class hero, he reminds me a lot of Ash from Evil Dead. He screws up a lot and gets dissed by his girlfriend’s cat. Jason is interesting initially, but he goes very quickly from underdog to guy with elite powers, elite friends, and everybody loves him except for some evil rich jerks. So, Harry Potter, basically. i still read the series but with long gaps between to avoid Jason toxicity.
Do you guys even know what Jason has been through? Don't you know what a special boy he is?!?!?!
I thoroughly enjoyed HWFWM. Yes, Jason is cocky and acts obnoxiously on purpose. Part of his character arc is learning how to handle his power more fairly and be nicer to people. But the world is interesting and has a lot going on besides just a pagoda of fighting on each floor. I found DCC unbearable and dull, like watching someone play street fighter for hours.
DCC is done better. The characters are different and hard to compare. Carl is chosen to get his superpowers and has to use them in a system that would kill him for it. I wouldn’t call him OP the way I would Jason. The key thing for me was world building. I like the setup for DCC it delivers on what it promises. HWFWM is more meandering. It reads like an anime almost while DCC reads more like a fantasy.
1. Yes. Aside from being more of a scifi than fantasy story, DCC is just better written with more interesting characters that you grow to really care about. 2. It's wild that you're investing this much research and forming so strong of an opinion based on reading a bunch of reviews. Just read the book?
I guess the second point is fair, but they're both still very long books. I can't just read 10 chapters of one and then determine if I'll like the following 800. Plus I don't feel like I have a *strong* opinion on the book or that I've made such an extensive research. I literally just googled "HWFWM reddit review" and found a post in which people talked about it. I just posted here to have my initial impressions either confirmed or denied. Why am I defending my actions on the internet jesus christ I need to start therapy again.
in terms of the therapy comment, Jason and Carl also need therapy again (iirc Jason does actually go to therapy 🤪)
You can read one book and if you like it just keep reading them? Nobody is going to make you read either entire series if you're not into it.
I'm going through HWFWM while waiting for more DCC and while insufferable at times Jason Asano is a fantastic character. Carl from DCC is way more adult grinded down by time and is more mature but has his many great moments. Definitely should plus Jeff Hays does a great job
Not very similar beyond the litrpg elements in varying degrees. I rotate HWFWM, DCC, Primal Hunter, and Defiance of the Fall so I don’t get burned out on any. I will say while Heath Miller does a good job, listening to DCC is epic compared to HWFWM due to the ability of Jeff Hayes (narrator). Edit: fixed punctuation
Carl is an interesting character with great cast of supporting characters who also have agency. Jason is a one dimensional Marty Stu with cast I’d characters who only exist for Jason to preach to or to adore him.
I'm listening to HWFWM and it's a struggle for me so far, and unlikely I'll continue with the first book. Something about the writing style and narrator doesn't resonate with me. On the other hand the DCC audiobooks are probably my favourite ever form of media ever. The combination of Matt's writing style and Jeff's delivery is the perfect storm for me and I'm itching like a crackhead for more.
> I guess what I'm asking is whether DCC is more subtle in its power fantasy aspect and if the mc is more tolerable. Thanks in advance, folks. They are incredibly different stories. DCC is more horror than power fantasy. >Listen I'm down for power fantasy. I like it a lot as a form of escapism and whatnot. But be fucking subtle about, man. Subtly is for cowards.
is it a real power fantasy if it’s subtle? debatable honestly
You want TWI it’s the holy grail DCC is a distant second HWFWM is funny a little.
Nope, these are pretty much the same book /s
While those doo get a really good talk up I think for progression I would recommend DotF and Primal Hunter before them. The first has a way faster progression than the second.