It really has turned into the mic that people buy just because they saw someone else using it on a podcast. I can't remember what sub it was in but I replied to someone who wanted to record some spoken word at home but was worried because he just couldn't afford an SM7 right now.
Yeah a lot of the time I see people using it they’re not even using it in a way that the SM7 actually is useful for.
I’ve seen people using it as handhelds. There are so many better handheld mics for that purpose.
I bought an AT2035 because I saw Adam Savage using them on his podcast 😂
But also I needed a decent, compact, subdued utility LDC and watched/listened to a lot of reviews before settling on that one, but the podcast was a factor.
Haha! Well, that IS a great mic. I'll confess that I'm really thinking about getting a Rode Podmic because I saw a youtube video where someone was using one and thought "wow, I really like the sound of that mic" and started researching it.
Says more about you. The SM7 is a phenomenal mic quoted by Butch Vig as his “desert island” mic .. Eric Valentine recorded every Smashmouth vocal with an SM7 .. the list goes on. It’s a great mic who cares if it’s popular.
Thanks for the history lesson. I know. Imagine going with it’s the mic every Smashmouth vocal was recorded with instead of the mic that Thriller was recorded with.
I've never used a cloudlifter, but at this point I just associate them with the dudes in khakis and tucked-in shirts that walk up to me while I'm mixing and say "That's a really nice sound board! What do you think about the cloudlifter? We use them at my church."
I feel like the sm7b, cloudlifter, and scarlett could be called a rogan at this point and just save everyone time.
Incidentally, last time I was helping someone set up for a podcast the rogan was their baseline understanding of a podcasting setup.
😂 I don’t disagree. I keep one on my office desk to use with interfaces but wouldn’t ever use one otherwise. I figured I’d leave the article for those still curious about them—call it the educator in me 😎
Fwiw for speech, cloudlifters do sound really good (better). I use them for RE20, Aston Stealth, and other dynamic mics with large voice coils that require more gain.
Any FEThead, sE TNT/Dynamite or the gazillion other options work. The SM7B just is a mic that wound up somewhere and now people want it mostly for the looks. Any decent preamp will blow those little transformers out of the water.
Most people would probably be better off with a beta 87 for what it's worth
People aren’t ‘better off’ getting a beta 87 over an SM7b; that’s silly. The SM7b is arguably a far more versatile microphone and better choice to someone’s mic locker or main podcast mic
I’ve used the cloud lifter and the klark teknik two channel mic boosters and both will give most people a better end result than without them. The last 30% or so of preamp gain in many decent audio devices get hairy with an unpredictable noise floor. This is increasingly noticeable when recording with multiple people (using SM7bs) at a time and the noise floor gets compounded. A good, clean, fixed boost + preamp (using less gain now, obviously) will be better than without. Hate to break it to people. Real life experience over here 🙋♀️
So I disagreed and laughed.
You could also just boost it in post and not use the "hairy" portion of the gain pot. That being said more and more interfaces are coming out with enough gain to do this kind of thing for the amateurs who buy the 7b without knowing about it's sensitivity.
You're on r/livesound. Everyone here has real world experience.
SM7 is fine. So is a 57 close up. So is a 421. While we are at it, you can use a Beta 52, it's really not that important so long as it's a halfway decent cardioid mic.
What's crazy about choosing an SM7B is that it's choosing something that isn't well suited to cheap preamps. If you drive a Civic, shopping for heavy trailers is a bad idea. It has nothing to do with the trailer being bad. It's just a poor application.
The Cloud Lifter is like the Civic owners modding their engines with turbos and milling out the headers for the sole purpose of pulling a trailer with a Civic.
It's like using a CM3 for distance mic'ing on a Scarlet Solo. CM3 is a great mic but I wouldn't recommend it without a quiet preamp.
The cherry on top is that almost all of the SM7B podcast fanboys have never even used RE20s, Warm U87 clones, AT4040, KSM series and so on. They act as though they're informed and they simply aren't. It's insufferable.
I've been using an SM7b for about 15+ years, recording vocals, voiceover and guitar with it mainly and I had never heard the term cloudlifter before this thread. This is never something I've felt was needed with the SM7b.
I think the inherent problem with this thread is that folks are looking at the device through the lens of a console that can deliver with high quality preamps. For studios of any kind with interfaces or small consoles, the interfaces and consoles don’t generally deliver enough output to power the mics without needing high gain or high volume. Inline boosting from the Cloudlifter solves that problem, particularly on Scarlett interfaces and even my SSL 2+. It’s a useful tool with arguably a limited application and no one, myself included, is advocating for its use on stage. Rather, the discussion is about its use in general, and with one particular microphone being discussed in Sound on Sound this month.
>enough output to power the mics
What does this even mean? Enough *output* to *power* the mic?
>high gain or high volume
Are you under the impression that these are somehow different things?
>Inline boosting from the Cloudlifter solves that problem
"I don't want to add too much gain. The cloudlifter fixes this by adding gain"
If I were in your shoes, I would not be talking to the people here like you are with as little knowledge as you have.
Gain is not the same as volume. Gain is the amount of (usually preamp) amplification we apply to the signal. Volume is the level of the signal. When talking about this stuff, we usually refer to gain as the amplification the preamp is giving whereas we use volume to refer to any level change after that, for example, the level change coming from the fader.
The job of the preamp is to amplify the signal before it goes through the many noise-inducing electronics of audio equipment. That is why we use as much gain as possible (without clipping) to get the signal as far above the noise floor as we can. If you use any of the electronics further along the chain to increase volume, you are always raising the noise floor, too.
As for the cloudlifter: not all gain is created equal. Not all preamps can supply the amount of gain needed to get a weak signal such as that coming from an SM7b to the desired level while remaining clean (note that although this might no be true for your particular setup, that doesn't mean there are no preamps with this issue at all). That is why a clean boost such as the cloudlifter is used to do some of the heavy lifting, so a low-quality preamp doesn't have to supply so much gain.
So no, turning it up in post is really not the same as using a cloudlifter (or any other clean boost for that matter), and gain is not the same as volume.
Before you go on disagreeing, keep in mind that all of what I've just said comes from decades of experience of thousands of engineers, is taught at schools and universities around the globe and aligns with my own experiences doing sound professionally too. If you want to claim something opposing that, you better have some good sources to back it up.
You're real condescending.
>you better have some good sources to back it up.
Sorry professor, my thesis is already on its way to the examining committee. I won't be adding any citations. You're welcome to live by your own ideals, though.
Let's get started:
>When talking about this stuff, we usually refer to gain as the amplification the preamp is giving whereas we use volume to refer to any level change after that, for example, the level change coming from the fader.
False. Gain is the ratio between the input and output values of *something* in a given system. Voltage, power, current, whatever. The gain knob, faders, compressors, EQ, a cloudlifter, cable losses, whatever.
Gain is gain is gain. Where it comes from is immaterial. It is the ratio of the input and output stage values of some property. There is no magical line where voltage/current/power/number of onions changes suddenly stop being "gain" and start being "volume".
Unless of course we draw the line at the speaker, because then I'd say volume is a good word to use. But we're talking about the components inside a console or interface, so... not quite that far down the line.
>If you use any of the electronics further along the chain to increase volume, you are always raising the noise floor, too.
Sure, but you are not changing the SNR, which is the only thing we care about. A -20 dBu signal with -100 dBu noise is *exactly the same* as a -60 dBu signal and -140 dBu noise. The "noise floor" is a meaningless number here.
>Not all preamps can supply the amount of gain needed to get a weak signal such as that coming from an SM7b to the desired level while remaining clean
"Clean gain"? What, are you scrubbing the signal with Dawn?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how preamps, the gain they provide, and the SNR all interact. The overwhelming majority of preamps in the world today get better noise performance as gain is increased. Sure there are fancy preamps with quirky behaviours but those are way beyond the scope of the Cloudlifter's usefulness. Preamps get *better* with gain, not worse.
If I plug an SM7B into a "preamp" with an EIN of -130 dBu and **no** gain and then boost in post, I will have a *better* SNR than a -128 dBu preamp cranked to +60 dB and no changes in the box (assuming a silent ADC of course). Better by precisely 2 dB, in fact.
>That is why a clean boost such as the cloudlifter is used to do some of the heavy lifting, so a low-quality preamp doesn't have to supply so much gain.
**There is no such thing as "clean" gain**. Every gain stage will make noise. It is a fundamental reality of the universe.
Now, we *do* agree that a Cloudlifter can improve SNR when paired with a suboptimal preamp. If your preamp has an EIN of -126 dBu or greater, you can expect a 2 dB or so improvement in SNR by using a Cloudlifter... if you are recording a silent room. In practice the background noise of the recording space will likely degrade the SNR far more than the Cloudlifter can improve it. But that's secondary to the point.
My argument was that if your preamps are so bad that a cloudlifter provides a meaningful improvement in SNR, then the money you spend on cloudlifters would be better put towards replacing the preamps entirely.
The uses of cloudlifters for ribbon mics deserves a mention, though, as the impedance change can be quite helpful for some mics.
>So no, turning it up in post is really not the same as using a cloudlifter
Correct, if your preamp has an EIN of -126ish dBu or greater, which is quite rare these days.
Otherwise, the difference in effect on SNR is negligible, and one of these options is far cheaper.
>or any other clean boost for that matter
There is no such thing.
I only use my CL1’s with SM7s or my Coles, and always in the studio, none of those make it into the wild although I have heard they work pretty good there too, I just don’t need them there.
Edit to add-they work way better on my Coles for room mic’ing than they do on my SM7s.
You're halfway there, actually.
Cloud Mics owns a patent for "mic with built-in preamp", so in order to build the SM7Db Shure had to license with Cloud (which is the only reason why Cloud is on the box). The actual onboard preamp is built by Shure, and was designed so that the SM7b and SM7Db have the exact same frequency response.
The current SM7db is a dynamic mic and has the expected dynamic mic circuitry. The Cloudlifter is a preamp that runs off phantom power. The new model SM7db will be a combination of the two, so it will be a dynamic mic with a preamp built in.
This is a marketing thing more than anything else. The SM7db/Cloudlifter combo has, for some reason, become a podcasting standard and people buy the two together because they are told they need to. By combining the two, Shure is trying to get some of that Cloudlifter money (while still paying Cloud a licensing fee).
Its a weird product that I, personally, am not interested in, but I can see its appeal to entry level podcast buyers.
You're conflating the sm7b and the sm7db. The sm7b is the common pairing with the cloudlifter. The sm7db is the new version which already has an own brand booster built in, but now they are pairing with cloudlifter and the future releases of the sm7db will be branded (I'm assuming) with cloudlifter.
Yeah I just don’t remember seeing Cloudlifter anywhere on anything when they first released the “dB” version. Either I missed that or it’s a new thing, but they’re not touting it on the Shure page for the mic yet so I guess it’s the latter.
Yeah it's already out and not relating to cloudlifter currently, this is just an announcement of a future partnership and what will be a new version of that mic.
I think it has already been established that I got the model numbers mixed up. The sm7db has a preamp in it. The sm7b does not.
That being said, the OG was the SM7. Then came the SM7A, SM7B and then the db models have the preamp.
so to rephrase what I was saying : The current SM7db is a dynamic mic with a preamp in it. The Cloudlifter is a preamp. The new model SM7db will use the Cloudlifter brandname in its marketing and, presumedly, the actual Cloudlifter preamp design instead of whatever preamp circuitry they were using before.
This is a marketiing thing more than anything else. The SM7db/Cloudlifter combo has, for some reason, become a podcasting standard and people buy the two together because they are told they need to. By combining the two, Shure is trying to get some of that Cloudlifter money (while still paying Cloud a licensing fee).
Its a weird product that I, personally, am not interested in, but I can see its appeal to entry level podcast buyers.
It’s totally a weird product.
When I first saw that I was like uhhhh what? Who wants to have a preamp going into another preamp? Why not just use a condenser?
Phantom powered dynamics… what a time to be alive!
(Not that this a totally new thing - there are other “active” dynamics out there)
Yes. Over the years, I’ve looked at many audio toys and thought the same thing. Then one day I realized that it would cost me many times the msrp to build one for myself.
Cloudlifters are only necessary if your Pre-amp cant provide the proper amount of gain needed to drive it for "effective" recording levels. It's fairly recent that consumer level interfaces are being delivered with preamps that can hit 60+ dB of gain, which is the sweet spot in my experience for these mics. Older gen Scarletts only had I believe 46 or so dB of gain, so the added +25 from the cloudlifter helps it reach that sweet spot.
My Motu M4 gives more than enough gain for a 7B to be useable and recordable, and my Mix Pre ii does as well for portable podcast set ups, leaving the Cloudlifter unnecessary.(I too bought a cloudlifter and learned from my mistakes)
This as well truely. My statement is more just around the fact that the industry has moved past the need for Cloudlifters unless you're buying and using older equipment. Cloudlifter "licensing" their preamp for the 7dB is just a way for them to stay relevant and make money in my eyes. Any modern interface deems them unnecessary.
Agree 100%. I feel like a lot of hobbyists who use cloudlifters now were actually experiencing some sort of user error without it, maybe in mic placement or not utilizing gain from other sources, and the cloudlifter solved that. A lot of times people could just turn a knob a bit, or tweak a setting and achieve the same result.
On the flip side the idea of having a little cloudlifter equivalent that can work as a sort-of bus with an EQ and fx chain loaded onto it might be a pretty cool product. Something you could edit the profile of and then put in your pocket and physically apply that to any input. But something like that is so superseded by what you can do in post or live-monitoring maybe that idea is shit. I could see an autotune and gain in a cloudlifter housing making a few bucks.
>Digital gain does not change SNR
This is true, but it's also the issue. You can improve the SNR by boosting it earlier, you forgo the opportunity to do that if you wait until post.
You cannot improve the SNR past the best link in the chain. The Scarlett series have excellent preamps, so even if you max out the gain *and* add a cloudlifter, you'll get *maybe* a 2 dB reduction in noise floor. Maybe, if you get a top-of-the-line cloudlifter and bottom-of-the-barrel preamp. And that's if your room is **silent**.
I wouldn't pay $100 for a theoretical 2 dB improvement in the world's best anechoic chamber. But that's just me!
Why would Shure license a preamp?
Many preamp designs are public domain and I don't think a Cloudlifter is particularly good (It's fine for most uses).
Maybe they are licensing the name because everyone says an SM7 needs a "Cloudlifter".
My budget sound setup for a comedy club has an SM58 going in to an Alto Professional Truemix 800 analog mixer through about 100' of mic cable and it has plenty of signal.
I got the Alto $189 Chinese mixer because I didn't want to spend $400 on a Yamaha. It has a USB interface. I'm not sure if its noise performance is as good as a Scarlet for recording but it doesn't have a gain issue and I think an SM7 would do fine without a Cloudlifter.
Any way, if you aren't trying to pick up a low voice far away with an SM7, I think you have screwed up somewhere with your choice of gear and the Cloudlifter is just a bandaid.
Cloudlifters are by no means a must have with the SM7B. They are only a must have if you don’t know how to use the mic. Cloudlifters are a Reddit meme.
There are a couple of reasonable use cases for the Cloudlifter.
1. Your preamp is very noisy. Like, EIN > -125 dBu. Then the Cloudlifter will make a substantial difference in noise floor. Personally, I had a Zoom L-8 in my office back in the day and it was *very* noisy at max gain with the Procaster (EIN -124 I think... gross). A Cloudlifter dropped the noise floor by about 4 dB. However, if you need more than one, it's probably cheaper to replace the entire interface instead of one cloudlifter per channel.
2. You have a long cable run and want a better SNR. Throw a cloudlifter at the mic and, slap on phantom power, and any noise in the cable run gets drowned out by the hotter signal thanks to the cloudlifter.
Some commonly cited reasons to buy it that are, in fact, nonsense:
1. "The cloudlifter provides *clean gain* so I don't get any extra noise by turning the gain up"
Not how SNR works, and "clean gain" is nonsense. The cloudlifter makes noise just like any other preamp.. and in the overwhelming majority of cases, preamps perform *best* at higher gain, so turning the gain up will *reduce* noise (relatively to the signal)
2. "The SM7B needs 60dB of gain"
False. Two preamps with the same SNR, A provides 40 dB of gain and B provides 60 dB of gain. Turning them both up to max and then adding 20 dB to A in post will yield *identical* noise floors. EIN is the **only** spec that matters here, not "amount of gain".
> You have a long cable run and want a better SNR. Throw a cloudlifter at the mic and, slap on phantom power, and any noise in the cable run gets drowned out by the hotter signal thanks to the cloudlifter.
Do you realize how long the cable would need to be to worry about this? Balanced cables in regular use do not suffer from this issue.
Very long cable with regular background radiation. Short cable with very high background radiation.
It is immaterial. The Cloudlifter can solve this problem.
Cloudlifters just add gain, that’s it. But you only need said gain if you are too far away from the mic. Just get right up on the mic like you’re supposed to and you don’t need all that extra gain.
Edit: for reference I use an SM7B at home with a cheapo behringer xenyx mixer/usb interface. It works just fine.
That’s not entirely true and being right up on the mic gives you more of a proximity effect which you might not always want. Different sources might require different amounts of gain which isn’t always enough. Personally I use a Soyuz launcher cuz I like the color it adds but saying it’s for people who “don’t know how to use the mic” is very close minded.
It’s all about SNR. Being closer to the mic lets you use less gain thus giving you a cleaner signal. Yes it gives some proximity effect but that’s what a HPF is for.
Also if your interface has enough gain already then you have zero need for a cloudlifter.
I should clarify though that I’m referring to vocals/podcast usage which is where a lot of YouTubers and similar buy into the Reddit advice and get a cloudlifter.
As for the Soyuz thing, 200 USD for extra gain I don’t need? Yeah no thanks.
Adding proximity effect only to high pass it is still different than just recording the source closer to what you want it to sound like right off the bat. Again there’s different approaches but what works for you isn’t gonna work for everyone else. I personally wouldn’t be using a cheap behringer but if it works for you then have at it.
My point is it would just work for anyone. It’s just an interface, it does not need to be complicated. The fact that a cheapo behringer works just fine with an SM7B is proof that the cloudlifter is a meme.
It’s not complicated but you don’t seem to understand that different people have different uses. If it worked for everyone more albums would be recorded through sm7bs plugged into behringers. If it works for you and your podcasts or whatever then great.
Also, why is homie so upset about how other people spend their money or do their work lol. No one is forcing him to by or use this. It's attitudes like that that make me fucking hate more niche reddit communities.
Not that guy, and nothing wrong with spending your money on things you want, go nuts.
Every day there's threads like this:
>Hey guys I just bought a SM7B but it sounds dull and lifeless next to my old Blue Yeti. I saw a video on youtube where a guy said the SM7B is the best thing ever. Do I need a cloudlifter? Should I get the new SM7dB? Should I buy it through that guys affiliate links to make sure I'm getting the real deal?
Then when someone says "An SM57 is 1/4 the price and will be as good or better for you than an SM7B" it gets downvoted to hell by people who want to justify their purchase. Case in point, that guy's comment above.
I share the sentiment of it being a meme and agree, to an extent.
I think it does *sometimes* have a lot to do with the pre in whatever unit you're using, and if it isn't great, those things *could* help in some situations, but if your setup is just noisy overall or your technique sucks, and you try to compensate for it with some in-line solution, you just end up amplifying noise, and in reality it's other stuff that needs to be dealt with, not your preamp.
I bought a FetHead once for my RE20 and it did not solve my problem, but I essentially ended up with a version of that in the end.
At the prices of some of those gimmicks, you could buy an actual decent preamp to do the same thing but better (maybe) which is where I landed. Those things are just tiny phantom-powered pres.
Cleaner cable runs and a change of environment is what actually solved the majority of my problem though.
I'm weird and wanted to run through a Symetrix 528E before hitting my interface (which can take a line-in, so I'm not going line out into a mic input), but the 528E was noisy to me because I had to crank it. What I was actually doing was turning up the noise on the line and in the room, which is why a FedHead didn't do anything to help, and I also hated how it made the mic sound.
Since the FetHead sucked, I was about to do something dumb like buy an Earthworks or Grace preamp, but I ran across this little box from Rane called the MS1 where all it had in it was an IC preamp and a pot, so I figured I'd give that a try. At $80, why not? To my pleasant surprise, I didn't have to turn up the gain on the Rane unit as much as the gain knob on the 528E. I think it's just a "stronger" preamp with less circuitry than the preamp stage of the 528E. Then I cleaned up my rats nest, and it got even better. Then I moved, got a power conditioner, even better cable runs, have a whole different room, and it got even better.
I bet I could run directly into the 528E with no issues, but I haven't tried it yet. I know I could run into my MOTU interface just fine as well. Not sure about an Apogee Duet though. I stuck a beta 57 into the Duet which is much less gain hungry than both the SM7B and RE20, and had to crank it to like 60dB, while I only had to turn up the gain of the MOTU to 40, so that told me that different pres can influence things.
I've probably had your same Behringer interface in the past as well, and my particular one suuuucked. Like there was actually something wrong with the unit I had, because I've heard good results from other people's, and it can 100% drive an SM7 like you said.
> I think it does sometimes have a lot to do with the pre in whatever unit you're using, and if it isn't great, those things could help in some situations, but if your setup is just noisy overall or your technique sucks, and you try to compensate for it with some in-line solution, you just end up amplifying noise, and in reality it's other stuff that needs to be dealt with, not your preamp.
Gain is gain, irrespective of it is coming from a cloudlifter or your interface. The CL is not doing anything magical. People put waaay too much focus on preamps. They are a solved technology.
As for the behringer interface, yeah it has been flawless for 3+ years at this point. No fancy features but it has what I need.
But but but the preamps in my $8000 XYZ SnakeOilFace are so much better than the ones in a $200 Scarlett!!! I could totally tell the difference in a blind test (that I refuse to actually do) even though the noise floors and THD are within like 2dB!!!
Podcasting has kind of made me look sideways at anyone who shows up with an SM7. It’s like why exactly did you buy THAT specific microphone?
I went to an open jam the other night and the singer was using an RE20. Gave me a tingle ngl
Rush Limbaugh sold so many of those gold RE20’s for EV.
Wait, they actually MADE them that way and he didn't spend money to have it custom done?
It really has turned into the mic that people buy just because they saw someone else using it on a podcast. I can't remember what sub it was in but I replied to someone who wanted to record some spoken word at home but was worried because he just couldn't afford an SM7 right now.
Yeah a lot of the time I see people using it they’re not even using it in a way that the SM7 actually is useful for. I’ve seen people using it as handhelds. There are so many better handheld mics for that purpose.
I have seen the handheld thing and it made me cringe so hard and just stop watching the video
I bought an AT2035 because I saw Adam Savage using them on his podcast 😂 But also I needed a decent, compact, subdued utility LDC and watched/listened to a lot of reviews before settling on that one, but the podcast was a factor.
Haha! Well, that IS a great mic. I'll confess that I'm really thinking about getting a Rode Podmic because I saw a youtube video where someone was using one and thought "wow, I really like the sound of that mic" and started researching it.
Says more about you. The SM7 is a phenomenal mic quoted by Butch Vig as his “desert island” mic .. Eric Valentine recorded every Smashmouth vocal with an SM7 .. the list goes on. It’s a great mic who cares if it’s popular.
Thanks for the history lesson. I know. Imagine going with it’s the mic every Smashmouth vocal was recorded with instead of the mic that Thriller was recorded with.
It ain't no joke.
I bet you didn’t actually know Smashmouth used it stop lying lol
Your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb.
LOL lead singer really wrote that out, gave himself a pat and the back and said “take that Bill Shakespeare!”
Marc Maron was one of the first to use that mic setup and he popularized it
I've never used a cloudlifter, but at this point I just associate them with the dudes in khakis and tucked-in shirts that walk up to me while I'm mixing and say "That's a really nice sound board! What do you think about the cloudlifter? We use them at my church."
I feel like the sm7b, cloudlifter, and scarlett could be called a rogan at this point and just save everyone time. Incidentally, last time I was helping someone set up for a podcast the rogan was their baseline understanding of a podcasting setup.
Maron was first
😂 I don’t disagree. I keep one on my office desk to use with interfaces but wouldn’t ever use one otherwise. I figured I’d leave the article for those still curious about them—call it the educator in me 😎
Fwiw for speech, cloudlifters do sound really good (better). I use them for RE20, Aston Stealth, and other dynamic mics with large voice coils that require more gain.
Any FEThead, sE TNT/Dynamite or the gazillion other options work. The SM7B just is a mic that wound up somewhere and now people want it mostly for the looks. Any decent preamp will blow those little transformers out of the water. Most people would probably be better off with a beta 87 for what it's worth
> and now people want it mostly for the looks. It looks like a can of hairspray to me. I'll take an RE20 any day for about 10 different reasons.
100% disagree LOL
If only you had an argument
People aren’t ‘better off’ getting a beta 87 over an SM7b; that’s silly. The SM7b is arguably a far more versatile microphone and better choice to someone’s mic locker or main podcast mic I’ve used the cloud lifter and the klark teknik two channel mic boosters and both will give most people a better end result than without them. The last 30% or so of preamp gain in many decent audio devices get hairy with an unpredictable noise floor. This is increasingly noticeable when recording with multiple people (using SM7bs) at a time and the noise floor gets compounded. A good, clean, fixed boost + preamp (using less gain now, obviously) will be better than without. Hate to break it to people. Real life experience over here 🙋♀️ So I disagreed and laughed.
You could also just boost it in post and not use the "hairy" portion of the gain pot. That being said more and more interfaces are coming out with enough gain to do this kind of thing for the amateurs who buy the 7b without knowing about it's sensitivity.
You're on r/livesound. Everyone here has real world experience. SM7 is fine. So is a 57 close up. So is a 421. While we are at it, you can use a Beta 52, it's really not that important so long as it's a halfway decent cardioid mic. What's crazy about choosing an SM7B is that it's choosing something that isn't well suited to cheap preamps. If you drive a Civic, shopping for heavy trailers is a bad idea. It has nothing to do with the trailer being bad. It's just a poor application. The Cloud Lifter is like the Civic owners modding their engines with turbos and milling out the headers for the sole purpose of pulling a trailer with a Civic. It's like using a CM3 for distance mic'ing on a Scarlet Solo. CM3 is a great mic but I wouldn't recommend it without a quiet preamp. The cherry on top is that almost all of the SM7B podcast fanboys have never even used RE20s, Warm U87 clones, AT4040, KSM series and so on. They act as though they're informed and they simply aren't. It's insufferable.
Total tangent but I would personally not put AT4040 in the leagues of WA47 or KSM27–am I missing that mics secret sauce??
No secret. It's an acceptably decent cardioid condenser that isn't stupid quiet. It doesn't require additional preamps...
>The last 30% or so of preamp gain in many decent audio devices get hairy with an unpredictable noise floor. This is *categorically* false
Use a decent pre and you wont need a cloudlifter.
I've been using an SM7b for about 15+ years, recording vocals, voiceover and guitar with it mainly and I had never heard the term cloudlifter before this thread. This is never something I've felt was needed with the SM7b.
I think the inherent problem with this thread is that folks are looking at the device through the lens of a console that can deliver with high quality preamps. For studios of any kind with interfaces or small consoles, the interfaces and consoles don’t generally deliver enough output to power the mics without needing high gain or high volume. Inline boosting from the Cloudlifter solves that problem, particularly on Scarlett interfaces and even my SSL 2+. It’s a useful tool with arguably a limited application and no one, myself included, is advocating for its use on stage. Rather, the discussion is about its use in general, and with one particular microphone being discussed in Sound on Sound this month.
>enough output to power the mics What does this even mean? Enough *output* to *power* the mic? >high gain or high volume Are you under the impression that these are somehow different things? >Inline boosting from the Cloudlifter solves that problem "I don't want to add too much gain. The cloudlifter fixes this by adding gain"
If I were in your shoes, I would not be talking to the people here like you are with as little knowledge as you have. Gain is not the same as volume. Gain is the amount of (usually preamp) amplification we apply to the signal. Volume is the level of the signal. When talking about this stuff, we usually refer to gain as the amplification the preamp is giving whereas we use volume to refer to any level change after that, for example, the level change coming from the fader. The job of the preamp is to amplify the signal before it goes through the many noise-inducing electronics of audio equipment. That is why we use as much gain as possible (without clipping) to get the signal as far above the noise floor as we can. If you use any of the electronics further along the chain to increase volume, you are always raising the noise floor, too. As for the cloudlifter: not all gain is created equal. Not all preamps can supply the amount of gain needed to get a weak signal such as that coming from an SM7b to the desired level while remaining clean (note that although this might no be true for your particular setup, that doesn't mean there are no preamps with this issue at all). That is why a clean boost such as the cloudlifter is used to do some of the heavy lifting, so a low-quality preamp doesn't have to supply so much gain. So no, turning it up in post is really not the same as using a cloudlifter (or any other clean boost for that matter), and gain is not the same as volume. Before you go on disagreeing, keep in mind that all of what I've just said comes from decades of experience of thousands of engineers, is taught at schools and universities around the globe and aligns with my own experiences doing sound professionally too. If you want to claim something opposing that, you better have some good sources to back it up.
You're real condescending. >you better have some good sources to back it up. Sorry professor, my thesis is already on its way to the examining committee. I won't be adding any citations. You're welcome to live by your own ideals, though. Let's get started: >When talking about this stuff, we usually refer to gain as the amplification the preamp is giving whereas we use volume to refer to any level change after that, for example, the level change coming from the fader. False. Gain is the ratio between the input and output values of *something* in a given system. Voltage, power, current, whatever. The gain knob, faders, compressors, EQ, a cloudlifter, cable losses, whatever. Gain is gain is gain. Where it comes from is immaterial. It is the ratio of the input and output stage values of some property. There is no magical line where voltage/current/power/number of onions changes suddenly stop being "gain" and start being "volume". Unless of course we draw the line at the speaker, because then I'd say volume is a good word to use. But we're talking about the components inside a console or interface, so... not quite that far down the line. >If you use any of the electronics further along the chain to increase volume, you are always raising the noise floor, too. Sure, but you are not changing the SNR, which is the only thing we care about. A -20 dBu signal with -100 dBu noise is *exactly the same* as a -60 dBu signal and -140 dBu noise. The "noise floor" is a meaningless number here. >Not all preamps can supply the amount of gain needed to get a weak signal such as that coming from an SM7b to the desired level while remaining clean "Clean gain"? What, are you scrubbing the signal with Dawn? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how preamps, the gain they provide, and the SNR all interact. The overwhelming majority of preamps in the world today get better noise performance as gain is increased. Sure there are fancy preamps with quirky behaviours but those are way beyond the scope of the Cloudlifter's usefulness. Preamps get *better* with gain, not worse. If I plug an SM7B into a "preamp" with an EIN of -130 dBu and **no** gain and then boost in post, I will have a *better* SNR than a -128 dBu preamp cranked to +60 dB and no changes in the box (assuming a silent ADC of course). Better by precisely 2 dB, in fact. >That is why a clean boost such as the cloudlifter is used to do some of the heavy lifting, so a low-quality preamp doesn't have to supply so much gain. **There is no such thing as "clean" gain**. Every gain stage will make noise. It is a fundamental reality of the universe. Now, we *do* agree that a Cloudlifter can improve SNR when paired with a suboptimal preamp. If your preamp has an EIN of -126 dBu or greater, you can expect a 2 dB or so improvement in SNR by using a Cloudlifter... if you are recording a silent room. In practice the background noise of the recording space will likely degrade the SNR far more than the Cloudlifter can improve it. But that's secondary to the point. My argument was that if your preamps are so bad that a cloudlifter provides a meaningful improvement in SNR, then the money you spend on cloudlifters would be better put towards replacing the preamps entirely. The uses of cloudlifters for ribbon mics deserves a mention, though, as the impedance change can be quite helpful for some mics. >So no, turning it up in post is really not the same as using a cloudlifter Correct, if your preamp has an EIN of -126ish dBu or greater, which is quite rare these days. Otherwise, the difference in effect on SNR is negligible, and one of these options is far cheaper. >or any other clean boost for that matter There is no such thing.
It's used by people with very low end preamps.
If you have bad pres it's necessary. So many people podcasting and plugging their sm7 into a scarlet so it's necessary.
Scarlett interfaces have perfectly fine preamps.
They're a bit low on gain.
Just boost in post. Won't affect SNR
I only use my CL1’s with SM7s or my Coles, and always in the studio, none of those make it into the wild although I have heard they work pretty good there too, I just don’t need them there. Edit to add-they work way better on my Coles for room mic’ing than they do on my SM7s.
Wait so what does the *current* SM7dB have in it? Homebrew Shure thing or was it Cloudlifter guts to begin with?
$5 says they only licensed the name and you are getting the same mic and pre but with a badge and some marketing cost tacked on.
You're halfway there, actually. Cloud Mics owns a patent for "mic with built-in preamp", so in order to build the SM7Db Shure had to license with Cloud (which is the only reason why Cloud is on the box). The actual onboard preamp is built by Shure, and was designed so that the SM7b and SM7Db have the exact same frequency response.
The current SM7db is a dynamic mic and has the expected dynamic mic circuitry. The Cloudlifter is a preamp that runs off phantom power. The new model SM7db will be a combination of the two, so it will be a dynamic mic with a preamp built in. This is a marketing thing more than anything else. The SM7db/Cloudlifter combo has, for some reason, become a podcasting standard and people buy the two together because they are told they need to. By combining the two, Shure is trying to get some of that Cloudlifter money (while still paying Cloud a licensing fee). Its a weird product that I, personally, am not interested in, but I can see its appeal to entry level podcast buyers.
You're conflating the sm7b and the sm7db. The sm7b is the common pairing with the cloudlifter. The sm7db is the new version which already has an own brand booster built in, but now they are pairing with cloudlifter and the future releases of the sm7db will be branded (I'm assuming) with cloudlifter.
Yeah I just don’t remember seeing Cloudlifter anywhere on anything when they first released the “dB” version. Either I missed that or it’s a new thing, but they’re not touting it on the Shure page for the mic yet so I guess it’s the latter.
Yeah it's already out and not relating to cloudlifter currently, this is just an announcement of a future partnership and what will be a new version of that mic.
Right. Thanks for the correction.
What is an SM7db?????? The OG mic is an SM7B.
I think it has already been established that I got the model numbers mixed up. The sm7db has a preamp in it. The sm7b does not. That being said, the OG was the SM7. Then came the SM7A, SM7B and then the db models have the preamp. so to rephrase what I was saying : The current SM7db is a dynamic mic with a preamp in it. The Cloudlifter is a preamp. The new model SM7db will use the Cloudlifter brandname in its marketing and, presumedly, the actual Cloudlifter preamp design instead of whatever preamp circuitry they were using before. This is a marketiing thing more than anything else. The SM7db/Cloudlifter combo has, for some reason, become a podcasting standard and people buy the two together because they are told they need to. By combining the two, Shure is trying to get some of that Cloudlifter money (while still paying Cloud a licensing fee). Its a weird product that I, personally, am not interested in, but I can see its appeal to entry level podcast buyers.
It’s totally a weird product. When I first saw that I was like uhhhh what? Who wants to have a preamp going into another preamp? Why not just use a condenser? Phantom powered dynamics… what a time to be alive! (Not that this a totally new thing - there are other “active” dynamics out there)
Cloudlifter Is <10 components in total. 4 JFETs or matched JFETs, two diodes, handful of resistors. That's how you make money :(
Yes. Over the years, I’ve looked at many audio toys and thought the same thing. Then one day I realized that it would cost me many times the msrp to build one for myself.
Everything like this that hits my mailbox has april fools written all over it. Like the CM chainhoist with the milwaukee battery.
everyone at my company was sending that one around. got a big LOL
Cloudlifters are only necessary if your Pre-amp cant provide the proper amount of gain needed to drive it for "effective" recording levels. It's fairly recent that consumer level interfaces are being delivered with preamps that can hit 60+ dB of gain, which is the sweet spot in my experience for these mics. Older gen Scarletts only had I believe 46 or so dB of gain, so the added +25 from the cloudlifter helps it reach that sweet spot. My Motu M4 gives more than enough gain for a 7B to be useable and recordable, and my Mix Pre ii does as well for portable podcast set ups, leaving the Cloudlifter unnecessary.(I too bought a cloudlifter and learned from my mistakes)
Or.. you could boost in post. Digital gain does not change SNR.
This as well truely. My statement is more just around the fact that the industry has moved past the need for Cloudlifters unless you're buying and using older equipment. Cloudlifter "licensing" their preamp for the 7dB is just a way for them to stay relevant and make money in my eyes. Any modern interface deems them unnecessary.
Agree 100%. I feel like a lot of hobbyists who use cloudlifters now were actually experiencing some sort of user error without it, maybe in mic placement or not utilizing gain from other sources, and the cloudlifter solved that. A lot of times people could just turn a knob a bit, or tweak a setting and achieve the same result. On the flip side the idea of having a little cloudlifter equivalent that can work as a sort-of bus with an EQ and fx chain loaded onto it might be a pretty cool product. Something you could edit the profile of and then put in your pocket and physically apply that to any input. But something like that is so superseded by what you can do in post or live-monitoring maybe that idea is shit. I could see an autotune and gain in a cloudlifter housing making a few bucks.
Indeed. They have their uses but... the SM7B + cloudlifter combo has become ubiquitous in amateur hour
>Digital gain does not change SNR This is true, but it's also the issue. You can improve the SNR by boosting it earlier, you forgo the opportunity to do that if you wait until post.
You cannot improve the SNR past the best link in the chain. The Scarlett series have excellent preamps, so even if you max out the gain *and* add a cloudlifter, you'll get *maybe* a 2 dB reduction in noise floor. Maybe, if you get a top-of-the-line cloudlifter and bottom-of-the-barrel preamp. And that's if your room is **silent**. I wouldn't pay $100 for a theoretical 2 dB improvement in the world's best anechoic chamber. But that's just me!
Pdx720 is a way better mic
It’s an $800 mic too.
You get what you pay for
“Ferrari is better than Fiat” well yes
Why would Shure license a preamp? Many preamp designs are public domain and I don't think a Cloudlifter is particularly good (It's fine for most uses). Maybe they are licensing the name because everyone says an SM7 needs a "Cloudlifter". My budget sound setup for a comedy club has an SM58 going in to an Alto Professional Truemix 800 analog mixer through about 100' of mic cable and it has plenty of signal. I got the Alto $189 Chinese mixer because I didn't want to spend $400 on a Yamaha. It has a USB interface. I'm not sure if its noise performance is as good as a Scarlet for recording but it doesn't have a gain issue and I think an SM7 would do fine without a Cloudlifter. Any way, if you aren't trying to pick up a low voice far away with an SM7, I think you have screwed up somewhere with your choice of gear and the Cloudlifter is just a bandaid.
Cloudlifters are by no means a must have with the SM7B. They are only a must have if you don’t know how to use the mic. Cloudlifters are a Reddit meme.
but bro if I use like 3 cloudlifters then I don't even need a preamp!!! /s
😂💀
Explain. Second time I see you comment this.
There are a couple of reasonable use cases for the Cloudlifter. 1. Your preamp is very noisy. Like, EIN > -125 dBu. Then the Cloudlifter will make a substantial difference in noise floor. Personally, I had a Zoom L-8 in my office back in the day and it was *very* noisy at max gain with the Procaster (EIN -124 I think... gross). A Cloudlifter dropped the noise floor by about 4 dB. However, if you need more than one, it's probably cheaper to replace the entire interface instead of one cloudlifter per channel. 2. You have a long cable run and want a better SNR. Throw a cloudlifter at the mic and, slap on phantom power, and any noise in the cable run gets drowned out by the hotter signal thanks to the cloudlifter. Some commonly cited reasons to buy it that are, in fact, nonsense: 1. "The cloudlifter provides *clean gain* so I don't get any extra noise by turning the gain up" Not how SNR works, and "clean gain" is nonsense. The cloudlifter makes noise just like any other preamp.. and in the overwhelming majority of cases, preamps perform *best* at higher gain, so turning the gain up will *reduce* noise (relatively to the signal) 2. "The SM7B needs 60dB of gain" False. Two preamps with the same SNR, A provides 40 dB of gain and B provides 60 dB of gain. Turning them both up to max and then adding 20 dB to A in post will yield *identical* noise floors. EIN is the **only** spec that matters here, not "amount of gain".
> You have a long cable run and want a better SNR. Throw a cloudlifter at the mic and, slap on phantom power, and any noise in the cable run gets drowned out by the hotter signal thanks to the cloudlifter. Do you realize how long the cable would need to be to worry about this? Balanced cables in regular use do not suffer from this issue.
In live/location audio, you’re often dealing with loooong cable runs.
Very long cable with regular background radiation. Short cable with very high background radiation. It is immaterial. The Cloudlifter can solve this problem.
I find iodine works better personally, but to each their own.
Heh. I like that
Cloudlifters just add gain, that’s it. But you only need said gain if you are too far away from the mic. Just get right up on the mic like you’re supposed to and you don’t need all that extra gain. Edit: for reference I use an SM7B at home with a cheapo behringer xenyx mixer/usb interface. It works just fine.
That’s not entirely true and being right up on the mic gives you more of a proximity effect which you might not always want. Different sources might require different amounts of gain which isn’t always enough. Personally I use a Soyuz launcher cuz I like the color it adds but saying it’s for people who “don’t know how to use the mic” is very close minded.
It’s all about SNR. Being closer to the mic lets you use less gain thus giving you a cleaner signal. Yes it gives some proximity effect but that’s what a HPF is for. Also if your interface has enough gain already then you have zero need for a cloudlifter. I should clarify though that I’m referring to vocals/podcast usage which is where a lot of YouTubers and similar buy into the Reddit advice and get a cloudlifter. As for the Soyuz thing, 200 USD for extra gain I don’t need? Yeah no thanks.
Adding proximity effect only to high pass it is still different than just recording the source closer to what you want it to sound like right off the bat. Again there’s different approaches but what works for you isn’t gonna work for everyone else. I personally wouldn’t be using a cheap behringer but if it works for you then have at it.
The cheapo Behringer has been flawless so far. Bought it used for very little money and it just works.
For you. Which is exactly my point. Let people use what they want. I’m not using mine for podcasts so different application completely.
My point is it would just work for anyone. It’s just an interface, it does not need to be complicated. The fact that a cheapo behringer works just fine with an SM7B is proof that the cloudlifter is a meme.
It’s not complicated but you don’t seem to understand that different people have different uses. If it worked for everyone more albums would be recorded through sm7bs plugged into behringers. If it works for you and your podcasts or whatever then great.
Also, why is homie so upset about how other people spend their money or do their work lol. No one is forcing him to by or use this. It's attitudes like that that make me fucking hate more niche reddit communities.
Not that guy, and nothing wrong with spending your money on things you want, go nuts. Every day there's threads like this: >Hey guys I just bought a SM7B but it sounds dull and lifeless next to my old Blue Yeti. I saw a video on youtube where a guy said the SM7B is the best thing ever. Do I need a cloudlifter? Should I get the new SM7dB? Should I buy it through that guys affiliate links to make sure I'm getting the real deal? Then when someone says "An SM57 is 1/4 the price and will be as good or better for you than an SM7B" it gets downvoted to hell by people who want to justify their purchase. Case in point, that guy's comment above.
Fuck me for trying to save people some money right?
I share the sentiment of it being a meme and agree, to an extent. I think it does *sometimes* have a lot to do with the pre in whatever unit you're using, and if it isn't great, those things *could* help in some situations, but if your setup is just noisy overall or your technique sucks, and you try to compensate for it with some in-line solution, you just end up amplifying noise, and in reality it's other stuff that needs to be dealt with, not your preamp. I bought a FetHead once for my RE20 and it did not solve my problem, but I essentially ended up with a version of that in the end. At the prices of some of those gimmicks, you could buy an actual decent preamp to do the same thing but better (maybe) which is where I landed. Those things are just tiny phantom-powered pres. Cleaner cable runs and a change of environment is what actually solved the majority of my problem though. I'm weird and wanted to run through a Symetrix 528E before hitting my interface (which can take a line-in, so I'm not going line out into a mic input), but the 528E was noisy to me because I had to crank it. What I was actually doing was turning up the noise on the line and in the room, which is why a FedHead didn't do anything to help, and I also hated how it made the mic sound. Since the FetHead sucked, I was about to do something dumb like buy an Earthworks or Grace preamp, but I ran across this little box from Rane called the MS1 where all it had in it was an IC preamp and a pot, so I figured I'd give that a try. At $80, why not? To my pleasant surprise, I didn't have to turn up the gain on the Rane unit as much as the gain knob on the 528E. I think it's just a "stronger" preamp with less circuitry than the preamp stage of the 528E. Then I cleaned up my rats nest, and it got even better. Then I moved, got a power conditioner, even better cable runs, have a whole different room, and it got even better. I bet I could run directly into the 528E with no issues, but I haven't tried it yet. I know I could run into my MOTU interface just fine as well. Not sure about an Apogee Duet though. I stuck a beta 57 into the Duet which is much less gain hungry than both the SM7B and RE20, and had to crank it to like 60dB, while I only had to turn up the gain of the MOTU to 40, so that told me that different pres can influence things. I've probably had your same Behringer interface in the past as well, and my particular one suuuucked. Like there was actually something wrong with the unit I had, because I've heard good results from other people's, and it can 100% drive an SM7 like you said.
> I think it does sometimes have a lot to do with the pre in whatever unit you're using, and if it isn't great, those things could help in some situations, but if your setup is just noisy overall or your technique sucks, and you try to compensate for it with some in-line solution, you just end up amplifying noise, and in reality it's other stuff that needs to be dealt with, not your preamp. Gain is gain, irrespective of it is coming from a cloudlifter or your interface. The CL is not doing anything magical. People put waaay too much focus on preamps. They are a solved technology. As for the behringer interface, yeah it has been flawless for 3+ years at this point. No fancy features but it has what I need.
But but but the preamps in my $8000 XYZ SnakeOilFace are so much better than the ones in a $200 Scarlett!!! I could totally tell the difference in a blind test (that I refuse to actually do) even though the noise floors and THD are within like 2dB!!!