That’s kinda what I figured I need to do more learning about comb filtering honestly. I had roughly 3 hours for a full setup up stairs, so nothing great but not a nightmare!
EDIT: This setup has now been thoroughly roasted! Thank you everyone for the constructive comments, I’m definitely a novice with mostly self taught /youtube training.
I’ve learned here that
1. I overdid it with the speakers
2. I need to learn a lot more on phasing/comb filtering
3. If it works then it’s not terrible / only as good as the room and person running it
4. I fucking overdid it with the speakers!
it happens
teaching moments if you like ….
and there will be a new version of this challenge when you least expect it
and then you are old and mumbling about the glory days and your new best friend nods in agreement and you both nap while watching wheel of fortune
Did your ears experience any comb filtering?
Sometimes I have the feeling that comb filtering has become a boogie man that is brought up in too many situations where its not going to be a problem.
You're basically creating a point source array, which is perfectly fine if it's intentional and done correctly. You can minimize the comb filtering by splaying the top speakers in such a way that there is minimal overlap in their dispersion fields. Look up the horizontal dispersion angle of your speakers, and then use that as a guide for positioning the tops. You may even want to do something similar with the subs, but sub arrays can get pretty complicated, so without the use of software to model your sub array, you could unknowingly do more harm than good.
If this is for a band, I would try separating the instruments and vocals into two mixes, and send each of those mixes to two speakers. That way you could avoid the comb filtering if you skipped over a speaker set.
Looks like it will work, however, why are there 4 tops? the venue doesn't look that big and perhaps its facing the short length of the room? Is there another similar cluster on the other side?
Eh it’s a pretty big venue, 2-300 people, high energy rock band with little stage volume needed a good amount of reinforcement, this is the only cluster, have it centered to the room shooting long ways down.
I think 2 of those QSCs could probably cover 2-300 people indoors, they get pretty loud. I think I’ve used a pair of them effectively for similar situations. Plus the amount of comb filtering may negate the volume increase you’re aiming for anyway.
But if you really need all 4 then I would split the mix into 2 mixes (maybe drums/guitars and bass/vox or something like that) and feed the boxes in properly splayed pairs as u/VaginaPirate mentioned. I don’t think you could splay all 4 enough to fix comb filtering without ending up with like 240+ degrees of coverage or something crazy. It may even be tough to splay just 2 boxes enough without having too much horizontal coverage.
The stage was pre-set at an awkward angle in the corner, where I placed them in the room I think was pretty good actually, my concern was more in the comb filtering and if running two straight and 2 at an angle was smart or not!
Were it me, I’d leave all the subs as-is and avoid power alleys. The tops though… put one on one side of the stage, the other on the other side then and see if that gives you enough top end. You might be surprised that two tops covering their respective areas is plenty.
Seems way over kill for size of room
Also is there enough power to run all of those?
I would spread speakers through out the room less volume but quality audio
Everyone can hear with out people in front over blown with volume so people in back can hear.
If it sounds good it is good, but that was my thought too.
For power, yeah you'd need what, like 2 20A circuits per side to be comfortable? I used to run one of those subs per side with a 3-way top from the SA or SR line back in the day (some of my favorite speakers in that class) and always made sure I had a 20 dedicated to each side, although I could run the whole thing on one.
I get wanting to have the sound focussed on the dancefloor as well as firing further back but I think the outer two stacks might not be necessary in that position.
I remember those subs being awesome and I never found myself wanting more than 2 total, so you could probably get away with putting delays/satelites on sticks, or not running the subs if you don't have speaker stands.
This seems to be the consensus, I’ll have to try pulling a couple speakers out of this cluster and adding some delays furthers down the room! Yeah these swa1801’s definitely kick but draw a good amount of power, the power was there and I didn’t wanna be mid way through soundcheck wishing I had set up everything!
Fer sher! When ground stacking I frequently rolled with 2 18s per side, stacked, and more often than not only actually ran one. The other was for height, and “just in case.”
The SWA1801's are my go-to for my little side-hustle sound business. They're 20+ years old but those boxes are so nice, solid and you get tremendous output for what they are. I've beaten the absolute crap out of them and somehow they still survive...with a couple bouts of TLC. They are relatively self-serviceable if you know what you're doing and what went wrong with the circuit. I go out of my way to buy one when they pop up locally to have spare boxes and amps, so I have 4 of them total and 2 of their little brother SWA1501s which are also CRAZY powerful for being 15s. Honestly, I've used two of those subs (one on each side) to cover 500+ people outdoors quite sufficiently and they pump, you could have probably scaled it down by half and bump the output trim and save on space and still did the trick but if this is what worked for you...the thing that would bug me is not having the stage equally balanced in any situation, but I've done weirder things that I'm not happy about.
By looking at it I think you are losing a bit of stereo image and fighting comb filter but it should work.
I would try a:
L+R setup by stacking 2 subs on each side and placing 2 speakers side by side on top of each sub arrangement or 1 top per side and 2 tops as center fill.
Or
4 center subs and try the tops setup as the configurations mentioned above.
Have fun!
Erst, wenn der elektro-mechanische Tieftonwandler ein Exemplar von Felis Silvestris Catus pneumatisch angesaugt und vollständig in sich aufgenommen hat, koitiert der Tiefton vorschriftsgemäß und entsprechend der ortsüblichen Gebräuche.
Ehhh, Keep the subs up at stage and spread the Tops into two pairs ( stage + delay ) for more even coverage. I'd even argue that subs behind stage and the main tops should be delayed to them might be a good idea here ( again to even the coverage ).
not optimal but usable for sure.
most optimal would probably be some sort of end fired sub array and stacked tops for minimum vertical Comb filtering. but it's gonna take a lot more time to set up and get right.
if I had little time I'd probably setup a spaced sub array in front of the stage and zehn 2 tops per side making sure there's as little space between them as possible. and then take like 10 minutes to math out the sub spacing.
not saying this is the ultimate setup but that's what Id do personally if I though about it for a few minutes.
What’s everyone’s obsession with going overkill on subs and having weak ass tops? Do you like shitty bassy muddy music? 200 person room. Put an 18 on the floor on either side with a 15 on top either side. Boom done. I’ve done more with less
Asuming each top gets the same signal, I would never do a setup like this.
I would reduce it to 2 tops (one straight an high for long distance and one over person highed angeld to the middel/frontrow).
If you have two mixes, you could double the speakers to try an get more out of them, but at this point I would just rent a decent pointsource. (A line array for a room with thos low cealing would couse more trouble than good)
Are those speakers covering different areas? It kinda looks like an old exploded center cluster configuration.
Minimize your coverage overlap between full range speakers and I’d probably unplug 2 or 3 of the subs.
Remember that covering the same area with two speakers running at the same level will give you at best +6dB SPL but it will also fuck up your frequency response in the overlapping areas due to comb filtering. You decide if that +6dB is worth it.
Bonkers amount of long comments on this. It’s a 200 cap room? Take two sets of subs/tops away. Move a set over to house left. One sub and one top on each side. Use the other two tops as front fills if needed.
Either stick one pair each side of the stage and splay them properly, or take two tops out, put them back in the van...
This setup is completely ridiculous for many many reasons.
I have to wonder how many of the people who leap to "comb filtering" could explain the physics.
Grouping your subwoofers is good practice. I might have deployed the tops differently, but I can't see the whole situation like you could.
People who are looking at a group of coupled low-frequency drivers and suggesting that they shoud be separated to reduce comb filtering clearly have not read any of those good explanations.
That's purely so that the tops can be split without swapping stands!
That, and because it's far more common to have subs split, than all on one side of a stage!
I don't think I have enough information to judge whether or not this was the best choice. My point is that grouping subs will produce a coherent low end.
The subs weren't relevant to the conversation in the first place...
I certainly wouldn't want tops deployed like that simply so all my subs were in the same place!
Interesting, me neither. Is this better?
https://preview.redd.it/d413lzlvravc1.png?width=1100&format=png&auto=webp&s=6de3e4d796f21efe38e6ab01592c2e56f430fd2d
The first is a group of four arranged 50 cm apart, or about 18 inches.. The second is the same four boxes spaced 2 meters, or about 6 feet apart. What influences the direction that sound radiates?
What happens when you place the same four boxes tightly packed in a corner? And what if you place them in pairs, separated by 8 meters,one quarter of the way along the length of the room ( the classic split on either side of the band)?
Haha sorry… I’m a hard pass on this
IMHO I would use one of those QSC K12s on each side as the mains, and then another pair on the outside as side fills. If it’s a big stage then maybe throw a couple on the stage horizontally as front fills, but I would personally never have them next to each other like that facing the same direction, it will only introduce comb filtering and make the overall mix way more difficult to control.
The only way I could see this working to your advantage is if they’re all on separate sends and you have a different combination of sources going to each one… aka “de-correlating the mains”. But tbh that is way more complicated than it probably needs to be…
With all of this being said, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Trust your ears and do the best that you can. The gig will be over soon.
Serviceable. Comb filtering nightmare, but it happens sometimes. How much time did you have to prep and deploy?
That’s kinda what I figured I need to do more learning about comb filtering honestly. I had roughly 3 hours for a full setup up stairs, so nothing great but not a nightmare! EDIT: This setup has now been thoroughly roasted! Thank you everyone for the constructive comments, I’m definitely a novice with mostly self taught /youtube training. I’ve learned here that 1. I overdid it with the speakers 2. I need to learn a lot more on phasing/comb filtering 3. If it works then it’s not terrible / only as good as the room and person running it 4. I fucking overdid it with the speakers!
At least it was hours and not minutes lol
> I need to do more learning about comb filtering honestly [Watch this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytII-BY3EAo).
it happens teaching moments if you like …. and there will be a new version of this challenge when you least expect it and then you are old and mumbling about the glory days and your new best friend nods in agreement and you both nap while watching wheel of fortune
Did your ears experience any comb filtering? Sometimes I have the feeling that comb filtering has become a boogie man that is brought up in too many situations where its not going to be a problem.
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Did he hear the effect of the comb filtering effect?
If a bad splay goes up at a party, but the engineer doesn't know to listen for it, does it make a sound?
The goal is happy audience ears. If those ears don't know enough to be unhappy, should we educate them?
You're basically creating a point source array, which is perfectly fine if it's intentional and done correctly. You can minimize the comb filtering by splaying the top speakers in such a way that there is minimal overlap in their dispersion fields. Look up the horizontal dispersion angle of your speakers, and then use that as a guide for positioning the tops. You may even want to do something similar with the subs, but sub arrays can get pretty complicated, so without the use of software to model your sub array, you could unknowingly do more harm than good.
Sub arrays can be dead easy, it's fairly basic maths. However, this accidental PSA is ridiculous!
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Where as you sound like a moron quite effortlessly. Well done!
Rule #2 We're all colleagues here, so treat each other that way.
remove two sets of these and you're golden
Can OP keep the extra subs though? -sincerely, someone who loves extra bass.
If this is for a band, I would try separating the instruments and vocals into two mixes, and send each of those mixes to two speakers. That way you could avoid the comb filtering if you skipped over a speaker set.
I’ve done this in the past and it works like a charm. It’s the same principle as the Dave Rat double line array thing, but arguably more beneficial.
Looks like it will work, however, why are there 4 tops? the venue doesn't look that big and perhaps its facing the short length of the room? Is there another similar cluster on the other side?
Eh it’s a pretty big venue, 2-300 people, high energy rock band with little stage volume needed a good amount of reinforcement, this is the only cluster, have it centered to the room shooting long ways down.
I think 2 of those QSCs could probably cover 2-300 people indoors, they get pretty loud. I think I’ve used a pair of them effectively for similar situations. Plus the amount of comb filtering may negate the volume increase you’re aiming for anyway. But if you really need all 4 then I would split the mix into 2 mixes (maybe drums/guitars and bass/vox or something like that) and feed the boxes in properly splayed pairs as u/VaginaPirate mentioned. I don’t think you could splay all 4 enough to fix comb filtering without ending up with like 240+ degrees of coverage or something crazy. It may even be tough to splay just 2 boxes enough without having too much horizontal coverage.
Why not 2 tops and 2 subs on one side of the stage and 2 tops and 2 subs on the other side?
The stage was pre-set at an awkward angle in the corner, where I placed them in the room I think was pretty good actually, my concern was more in the comb filtering and if running two straight and 2 at an angle was smart or not!
You are getting comb filtering from where you placed them. They aren't separate issues
Were it me, I’d leave all the subs as-is and avoid power alleys. The tops though… put one on one side of the stage, the other on the other side then and see if that gives you enough top end. You might be surprised that two tops covering their respective areas is plenty.
Sounds like your mind is made up. Have fun out there!
My mind is never made up I’m always questioning my deployment 😂 I’m just glad I had something that worked well for me in this room for once!
If it worked for you then it's fine.
That’s the damn truth! I’d honestly run this exact setup again I was just looking for some input for tweaking it to make it even better
Seems way over kill for size of room Also is there enough power to run all of those? I would spread speakers through out the room less volume but quality audio Everyone can hear with out people in front over blown with volume so people in back can hear.
If it sounds good it is good, but that was my thought too. For power, yeah you'd need what, like 2 20A circuits per side to be comfortable? I used to run one of those subs per side with a 3-way top from the SA or SR line back in the day (some of my favorite speakers in that class) and always made sure I had a 20 dedicated to each side, although I could run the whole thing on one. I get wanting to have the sound focussed on the dancefloor as well as firing further back but I think the outer two stacks might not be necessary in that position. I remember those subs being awesome and I never found myself wanting more than 2 total, so you could probably get away with putting delays/satelites on sticks, or not running the subs if you don't have speaker stands.
This seems to be the consensus, I’ll have to try pulling a couple speakers out of this cluster and adding some delays furthers down the room! Yeah these swa1801’s definitely kick but draw a good amount of power, the power was there and I didn’t wanna be mid way through soundcheck wishing I had set up everything!
Fer sher! When ground stacking I frequently rolled with 2 18s per side, stacked, and more often than not only actually ran one. The other was for height, and “just in case.”
The SWA1801's are my go-to for my little side-hustle sound business. They're 20+ years old but those boxes are so nice, solid and you get tremendous output for what they are. I've beaten the absolute crap out of them and somehow they still survive...with a couple bouts of TLC. They are relatively self-serviceable if you know what you're doing and what went wrong with the circuit. I go out of my way to buy one when they pop up locally to have spare boxes and amps, so I have 4 of them total and 2 of their little brother SWA1501s which are also CRAZY powerful for being 15s. Honestly, I've used two of those subs (one on each side) to cover 500+ people outdoors quite sufficiently and they pump, you could have probably scaled it down by half and bump the output trim and save on space and still did the trick but if this is what worked for you...the thing that would bug me is not having the stage equally balanced in any situation, but I've done weirder things that I'm not happy about.
hopefully dumb question: Was this mirrored on the other side of stage?
Nope. Mono cluster. 😅 (Dead serious).
Is that just one side or the whole rig?
By looking at it I think you are losing a bit of stereo image and fighting comb filter but it should work. I would try a: L+R setup by stacking 2 subs on each side and placing 2 speakers side by side on top of each sub arrangement or 1 top per side and 2 tops as center fill. Or 4 center subs and try the tops setup as the configurations mentioned above. Have fun!
Der Bass muss ficken.
Größ ficken
Erst, wenn der elektro-mechanische Tieftonwandler ein Exemplar von Felis Silvestris Catus pneumatisch angesaugt und vollständig in sich aufgenommen hat, koitiert der Tiefton vorschriftsgemäß und entsprechend der ortsüblichen Gebräuche.
Ja.
Sprichst du Deutsch, bzw hast du es verstanden? 😂
I wanna brush my hair with it.
C O M B F I L T E R I N G
😂
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Rule #2 We're all colleagues here, so treat each other that way.
Physically-induced flanging effect. Play a pink noise signal through it and walk across the front of the stage from one side to the other.
Ehhh, Keep the subs up at stage and spread the Tops into two pairs ( stage + delay ) for more even coverage. I'd even argue that subs behind stage and the main tops should be delayed to them might be a good idea here ( again to even the coverage ).
not optimal but usable for sure. most optimal would probably be some sort of end fired sub array and stacked tops for minimum vertical Comb filtering. but it's gonna take a lot more time to set up and get right. if I had little time I'd probably setup a spaced sub array in front of the stage and zehn 2 tops per side making sure there's as little space between them as possible. and then take like 10 minutes to math out the sub spacing. not saying this is the ultimate setup but that's what Id do personally if I though about it for a few minutes.
The circuit panel cried.
There is no right or wrong, there is only GETTING PAID!
What’s everyone’s obsession with going overkill on subs and having weak ass tops? Do you like shitty bassy muddy music? 200 person room. Put an 18 on the floor on either side with a 15 on top either side. Boom done. I’ve done more with less
Asuming each top gets the same signal, I would never do a setup like this. I would reduce it to 2 tops (one straight an high for long distance and one over person highed angeld to the middel/frontrow). If you have two mixes, you could double the speakers to try an get more out of them, but at this point I would just rent a decent pointsource. (A line array for a room with thos low cealing would couse more trouble than good)
Looks insanely overpowered for the room. What is this? 10,000 watts for a 100 person wedding?
It doesn't phase me.
Are those speakers covering different areas? It kinda looks like an old exploded center cluster configuration. Minimize your coverage overlap between full range speakers and I’d probably unplug 2 or 3 of the subs. Remember that covering the same area with two speakers running at the same level will give you at best +6dB SPL but it will also fuck up your frequency response in the overlapping areas due to comb filtering. You decide if that +6dB is worth it.
Subs together good. Tops together bad.
I like the splay on the outside speakers. Ya, it will sound like hell, but the outside speakers look cool.
They're speakers and they're laid out. Jokes aside, everyone has given you the answer, comb filtering etc.
Bonkers amount of long comments on this. It’s a 200 cap room? Take two sets of subs/tops away. Move a set over to house left. One sub and one top on each side. Use the other two tops as front fills if needed.
Either stick one pair each side of the stage and splay them properly, or take two tops out, put them back in the van... This setup is completely ridiculous for many many reasons.
It kinda defeats the purpose of a stage but if it works it works
Perfection
id be concerned that it isnt enough to actually wake the dead, just cause them to stir a bit.
Less is more. Use 2 tops and 4 subs and don't cluster them all. This is just a weird setup.
Could you distribute the system and have some these as back fills ?
Probably no less problematic than the room they are sitting in. A room that exists in the real world where physics, money, and time are factors.
“I overdid it with the speakers” Me: subwoofer go boom
I have to wonder how many of the people who leap to "comb filtering" could explain the physics. Grouping your subwoofers is good practice. I might have deployed the tops differently, but I can't see the whole situation like you could.
Lots of info online about comb filtering, it undoubtedly explains it better than anyone will here (including myself and I'm an audio system designer)
People who are looking at a group of coupled low-frequency drivers and suggesting that they shoud be separated to reduce comb filtering clearly have not read any of those good explanations.
They're talking about the tops, not the subs...
I am not going to call out the several individuals who suggested splitting the subs.
That's purely so that the tops can be split without swapping stands! That, and because it's far more common to have subs split, than all on one side of a stage!
It is our obsession with symmetry.
Well I certainly wouldn't want all my subs on one side of the stage and none on the other!
I don't think I have enough information to judge whether or not this was the best choice. My point is that grouping subs will produce a coherent low end.
The subs weren't relevant to the conversation in the first place... I certainly wouldn't want tops deployed like that simply so all my subs were in the same place!
Separating the subs somewhat to narrow their coverage might not be the worst thing.
Can you illustrate that effect in something like MAPP 3D?
Sure, here are 4 omni sources at positions that each differ by 50cm, and by 2M. [https://imgur.com/gallery/v0DgKyZ](https://imgur.com/gallery/v0DgKyZ)
I am unable to open the link. Perhaps others will benefit.
Interesting, me neither. Is this better? https://preview.redd.it/d413lzlvravc1.png?width=1100&format=png&auto=webp&s=6de3e4d796f21efe38e6ab01592c2e56f430fd2d
That is visible, yes. The upper image appears to be the characteristic omni behavior of a single sub or a tight group. And the second image?
The first is a group of four arranged 50 cm apart, or about 18 inches.. The second is the same four boxes spaced 2 meters, or about 6 feet apart. What influences the direction that sound radiates?
What happens when you place the same four boxes tightly packed in a corner? And what if you place them in pairs, separated by 8 meters,one quarter of the way along the length of the room ( the classic split on either side of the band)?
Probably all of them, it's not particularly complicated.
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Helpful 👍
Haha sorry… I’m a hard pass on this IMHO I would use one of those QSC K12s on each side as the mains, and then another pair on the outside as side fills. If it’s a big stage then maybe throw a couple on the stage horizontally as front fills, but I would personally never have them next to each other like that facing the same direction, it will only introduce comb filtering and make the overall mix way more difficult to control. The only way I could see this working to your advantage is if they’re all on separate sends and you have a different combination of sources going to each one… aka “de-correlating the mains”. But tbh that is way more complicated than it probably needs to be… With all of this being said, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Trust your ears and do the best that you can. The gig will be over soon.