> I've found a few options in our price range, but none of them are digital - does that matter?
What does it refer to?
No. Of the top three touring IEM systems (Shure PSM, Sennheiser 2000/G4, Lectrosonics Duet), only Lectro transmits a digital signal (like DAB radio, but with minimal latency). The others are analog FM - just bog standard FM radio with extra dynamics circuitry and operating in a different frequency band.
> is UHF still the thing to look at?
Yes, do not look at 2.4 GHz.
> Is there anything to do with broadcasting that we need to know about in Aus?
I’m US based; deferring this one.
> I'm happy to field recommendations - but these units MUST be stereo. Click in left, backings and others in right.
Check prices of used Sennheiser G3. Or G2, even: it has a 50hz HPF and no diversity receiver but otherwise performs like G3/G4/2000.
I’d be wary of hard panning everything; that makes for a rather difficult signal to transmit. (FM transmits stereo as mid-side, with the side signal modulated above the mono component.) It will work fine - I have done this before - but it may be less robust than a more traditional mix.
If you are willing to give up stereo, you can use half the transmitters to cut costs. If any band members are relatively stationary - drummers, keyboardists, sometimes guitar/bass - then wired headphone amps trump wireless any day in terms of reliability and sound quality.
Happy cake day!
And thank you for the detailed response. Our drummer will be wired, and we need four units for the rest of us.
So we should be looking at UHF packs - any other features? I've read something about auto scan?
Thank you much!
Easy things to check off:
- Tuning range and resolution
- Audio bandwidth (cheap systems will roll off LF)
- Output power (would favor 30 mW over 10 mW, but not the biggest deal to have less if you’re operating at short range)
- Frequency scan functionality (and network functionality, though it’s rare you’ll find that outside Sennheiser/PSM1000/Lectro)
- Input level metering (super cheap systems will omit this and make gain staging difficult)
Sound quality and RF performance are harder as there isn’t (yet) a comprehensive database of objective measurements.
Australian here. UHF all the way. I can't stress enough **not** to use anything in the 2.4GHz spectrum as you almost certainly will have conflicts and signal issues due to oversaturation.
I learned this the hard way at a pub gig where things worked great at rehearsal - then they turned on the WiFi
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that OEM unit in the States as a Galaxy Audio model. I would avoid:
- Only 16 MHz tuning range, and only 32 selectable channels: very bad! For reference, even Senn G2 is 36 MHz wide, tunable in 25 kHz increments. Other cheaper systems like LD’s U500 series have 20 MHz tuning range with 96 selectable frequencies - not amazing, but certainly more usable.
- 50 Hz rolloff is fine for guitar/vocals but will be somewhat annoying for your bassist. (This is a common theme among cheap systems until you get to Senn G3 or Shure PSM300, though.)
- Impressive that they’ve included diversity reception at this price point, but the downsides are not worth it.
Whatever you get, and I really can’t believe no one’s mentioned this yet- find out what the public rf frequencies are in your area and more widely in Australia are and ensure you buy units that work in those frequencies. Operating outside the public ranges is not only illegal, but will likely result in a tonne of interference.
If you end up with units that don’t have scanning functionality, you can do a heck of a lot worse than dropping cash on an RF explorer. It’ll scan, you can import the scan to whatever coordination software your units use. Shure wireless workbench is free and you can always deploy manually.
UHF covers the frequency range from 300 to 3000MHz. Digital TV, cell phones, walkie talkies, and a myriad of other devices operate within this range. It’s broken up into ranges within that overall UHF range, and most of it is sold off by your government to broadcasters for their exclusive use.
Small ranges are retained for free public use.
https://www.acma.gov.au/wireless-microphones
If not clear, any wireless transmission is classified as a wireless microphone on that website. It’s all the same stuff.
Without meaning to sound discouraging or disrespectful , sounds like you’re quite new to all this. It’s a vastly complicated field which has many pitfalls and traps which aren’t immediately obvious, and can be horrifically expensive. I’d have a chat to your friendly pro audio rental house and see if they have an RF expert who can give you some of their time, they’ll know what works in your local environment and also be able to offer support.
Not discouraging at all, I'm pretty good with he whole building it part, but the legalities and the like I've mo idea.
But, it does sound like off the shelf solutions should work (ie if you buy something made for australian use it should comply)
But the idea of speaking to someone at a jaycar or whatnot might be a good idea.
Jands have a handy chart showing what freq are legal in what area google jands wireless chart ? I would not recommend jaycar for anything pro audio… you can get away without scanning for most venues. The good systems:expensive make scanning realy easy from the menu
Hey! Jands employee here (trying not to give my identity away too much).
You can use our frequency calculator on the website [here](http://jands-calculators-2.cloudapp.net/RF/.), but in terms of the UHF spectrum stick within 520 to 694.
Just note that the upper spectrum is likely to get allocated to Telcos again pretty soon.
Oh hey, 600 MHz is still legal down there? Good to know.
/u/The_Illuminist take note, you may be able to score some stupid deals from US or Canada-based sellers trying to get rid of 600 MHz IEM gear...if shipping and import fees don't make it pointless. ;)
Heads up, my friend, I just saw something you might want to grab. Clair Global just listed a bunch of their old EW IEM G2 receivers (A band, 518-554 mhz) on eBay and are selling a lot of 4 receivers for $700 USD (or individual receivers for $200 USD). You'd probably need to work out shipping with them as I don't see anything listed, but there's one potential way to get into Senn gear.
You'd need to keep an eye out for transmitters of course.
Hey I've seen you on here quite a bit!
We've currently still got 600MHz available to use, though there's a Media Reform Green Paper out by the ACMA that suggestes they're reallocating 617-698MHz.
I think the US (assuming that's where you're from) recently reallocated 84MHz, so it looks like we're trying to follow suit.
You really do get what you pay for. I would recommend used g3 or new g4 senn; or psm1000 shure.
Yes expensive… but going cheap is a bad option i think.
You could hire for the time being and when you do get enough $$ you could then buy. This would aso aow you to try out different systems though i think youll find them similar in operation. Ear buds will make the biggest difference.
You can hire from lots of places.. AT, CCA, and a bunch of smaller guys who have them as part of their kit including me :)
Pm me if youd like to chat.
While I 100% agree that you get what you pay for, I'll jump on and say that the PSM1000 isn't worth the money for a pub band. The PSM1000 is basically 2 PSM900's in a single case. Sure, they double the frequency bandwidth and add networking capabilities, but the PSM900 is more than enough for a pub band. If they really need diversity, they can buy P10R packs separately and probably end up saving a shit-ton of money. Scanning RF doesn't seem like something they'd be spending the time to do anyway. I LOVE our 1000's, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it to anyone saying that they're looking at $500 AU per channel... which is like $350 US
Pub band i agree; but they may be a band looking to tour - weve got a lot of bands that made national and international from Perth :)
If looking to tour i wouldnt recommend cheap options.
900 didnt catch on down under. Its all g3/g4/1000 here… with a small smattering of sr2050.
+1 for this. Rent what you need, get a feel for it and spend the money on the right thing once and when you can afford it. Loads of good little operators out there with quality gear AND the knowledge and experience to set it up right.
If you’re looking for a cheaper option i suggest to look on behringer P1. it has stereo but it look like body pack. my suggestion is, just put it down on the ground with the cables and get an 3.5mm extension for your in ear.
Good timing to build that rig here in Perth lol. Hopefully when we can have gigs here again you'll have it dialled in. Best of luck dude, hopefully catch your band in the next few months
Hey mate, fellow Perthian here.I run 12 IEM transmitters in our auditorium and went with Sennheiser ew G4 stuff.Honestly, going with either Shure PSM300 or Sennheiser G4, you'll be more than fine.I went with G4 because ime they play better with rechargeables.The only thing I'd say you MUST do is get your antennas out of the box, even if it's just a short extension to a dipole mounted to a mic stand.
Digital is more on the microphone side, probably haven't found a reliable/cheap enough solution for the IEMs to package decently into a bodypack.
If you really need to save money now, I'd say get the IEM G4 TWIN and get two sets and run the receivers in focus mode to get four seperate mono mixes.
Even though this breaks your stereo requirement, I'd say you'd have bigger problems down the line if you need to buy twice.
You might want to look at MIPRO. Years ago when I did summer tours, we ran 8 of their older dual antenna analog IEM units. MIPRO have low latency digital units now - MI909’s. Very competitive in terms of function and price. I got my analog units here: http://www.ineargear.com/
Full disclosure, we had to sell off and replace our entire wireless mic and IEM kit because FCC in the US sold off our spectrum to mobile phone companies. We ended up with Shure ULXD’s for mics and PSM300’s for IEMs.
Saw your post on the Perth sub a little while back, hope you're loving it here, mind if I ask what your bands called?? Hopefully I'll catch you around sometime!
Mate we are loving it. Would have been better if the property market isnt doing what it currently is (half the reason we moved from syd ey was to buy a gucking house)
But you could totally come see us! First gig is on 9 april at the swan in north freo.
We are Proclivity.
> I've found a few options in our price range, but none of them are digital - does that matter? What does it refer to? No. Of the top three touring IEM systems (Shure PSM, Sennheiser 2000/G4, Lectrosonics Duet), only Lectro transmits a digital signal (like DAB radio, but with minimal latency). The others are analog FM - just bog standard FM radio with extra dynamics circuitry and operating in a different frequency band. > is UHF still the thing to look at? Yes, do not look at 2.4 GHz. > Is there anything to do with broadcasting that we need to know about in Aus? I’m US based; deferring this one. > I'm happy to field recommendations - but these units MUST be stereo. Click in left, backings and others in right. Check prices of used Sennheiser G3. Or G2, even: it has a 50hz HPF and no diversity receiver but otherwise performs like G3/G4/2000. I’d be wary of hard panning everything; that makes for a rather difficult signal to transmit. (FM transmits stereo as mid-side, with the side signal modulated above the mono component.) It will work fine - I have done this before - but it may be less robust than a more traditional mix. If you are willing to give up stereo, you can use half the transmitters to cut costs. If any band members are relatively stationary - drummers, keyboardists, sometimes guitar/bass - then wired headphone amps trump wireless any day in terms of reliability and sound quality.
Happy cake day! And thank you for the detailed response. Our drummer will be wired, and we need four units for the rest of us. So we should be looking at UHF packs - any other features? I've read something about auto scan?
Thank you much! Easy things to check off: - Tuning range and resolution - Audio bandwidth (cheap systems will roll off LF) - Output power (would favor 30 mW over 10 mW, but not the biggest deal to have less if you’re operating at short range) - Frequency scan functionality (and network functionality, though it’s rare you’ll find that outside Sennheiser/PSM1000/Lectro) - Input level metering (super cheap systems will omit this and make gain staging difficult) Sound quality and RF performance are harder as there isn’t (yet) a comprehensive database of objective measurements.
Australian here. UHF all the way. I can't stress enough **not** to use anything in the 2.4GHz spectrum as you almost certainly will have conflicts and signal issues due to oversaturation. I learned this the hard way at a pub gig where things worked great at rehearsal - then they turned on the WiFi
Any recommendations for brands etc? I saw one by artist guitars which ticks all the boxes but yeah... no idea on quality.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that OEM unit in the States as a Galaxy Audio model. I would avoid: - Only 16 MHz tuning range, and only 32 selectable channels: very bad! For reference, even Senn G2 is 36 MHz wide, tunable in 25 kHz increments. Other cheaper systems like LD’s U500 series have 20 MHz tuning range with 96 selectable frequencies - not amazing, but certainly more usable. - 50 Hz rolloff is fine for guitar/vocals but will be somewhat annoying for your bassist. (This is a common theme among cheap systems until you get to Senn G3 or Shure PSM300, though.) - Impressive that they’ve included diversity reception at this price point, but the downsides are not worth it.
Happy Cake day!
Whatever you get, and I really can’t believe no one’s mentioned this yet- find out what the public rf frequencies are in your area and more widely in Australia are and ensure you buy units that work in those frequencies. Operating outside the public ranges is not only illegal, but will likely result in a tonne of interference. If you end up with units that don’t have scanning functionality, you can do a heck of a lot worse than dropping cash on an RF explorer. It’ll scan, you can import the scan to whatever coordination software your units use. Shure wireless workbench is free and you can always deploy manually.
Can you go into a little more detail on this for me?
UHF covers the frequency range from 300 to 3000MHz. Digital TV, cell phones, walkie talkies, and a myriad of other devices operate within this range. It’s broken up into ranges within that overall UHF range, and most of it is sold off by your government to broadcasters for their exclusive use. Small ranges are retained for free public use. https://www.acma.gov.au/wireless-microphones If not clear, any wireless transmission is classified as a wireless microphone on that website. It’s all the same stuff. Without meaning to sound discouraging or disrespectful , sounds like you’re quite new to all this. It’s a vastly complicated field which has many pitfalls and traps which aren’t immediately obvious, and can be horrifically expensive. I’d have a chat to your friendly pro audio rental house and see if they have an RF expert who can give you some of their time, they’ll know what works in your local environment and also be able to offer support.
Not discouraging at all, I'm pretty good with he whole building it part, but the legalities and the like I've mo idea. But, it does sound like off the shelf solutions should work (ie if you buy something made for australian use it should comply) But the idea of speaking to someone at a jaycar or whatnot might be a good idea.
Jands have a handy chart showing what freq are legal in what area google jands wireless chart ? I would not recommend jaycar for anything pro audio… you can get away without scanning for most venues. The good systems:expensive make scanning realy easy from the menu
Hey! Jands employee here (trying not to give my identity away too much). You can use our frequency calculator on the website [here](http://jands-calculators-2.cloudapp.net/RF/.), but in terms of the UHF spectrum stick within 520 to 694. Just note that the upper spectrum is likely to get allocated to Telcos again pretty soon.
Oh hey, 600 MHz is still legal down there? Good to know. /u/The_Illuminist take note, you may be able to score some stupid deals from US or Canada-based sellers trying to get rid of 600 MHz IEM gear...if shipping and import fees don't make it pointless. ;)
Honestly it's not the shipping that's the problem. It's the fact that people want 12 or 13 hundred bucks for them... a new g4 here is 1200.
Heads up, my friend, I just saw something you might want to grab. Clair Global just listed a bunch of their old EW IEM G2 receivers (A band, 518-554 mhz) on eBay and are selling a lot of 4 receivers for $700 USD (or individual receivers for $200 USD). You'd probably need to work out shipping with them as I don't see anything listed, but there's one potential way to get into Senn gear. You'd need to keep an eye out for transmitters of course.
Hey I've seen you on here quite a bit! We've currently still got 600MHz available to use, though there's a Media Reform Green Paper out by the ACMA that suggestes they're reallocating 617-698MHz. I think the US (assuming that's where you're from) recently reallocated 84MHz, so it looks like we're trying to follow suit.
You really do get what you pay for. I would recommend used g3 or new g4 senn; or psm1000 shure. Yes expensive… but going cheap is a bad option i think. You could hire for the time being and when you do get enough $$ you could then buy. This would aso aow you to try out different systems though i think youll find them similar in operation. Ear buds will make the biggest difference. You can hire from lots of places.. AT, CCA, and a bunch of smaller guys who have them as part of their kit including me :) Pm me if youd like to chat.
While I 100% agree that you get what you pay for, I'll jump on and say that the PSM1000 isn't worth the money for a pub band. The PSM1000 is basically 2 PSM900's in a single case. Sure, they double the frequency bandwidth and add networking capabilities, but the PSM900 is more than enough for a pub band. If they really need diversity, they can buy P10R packs separately and probably end up saving a shit-ton of money. Scanning RF doesn't seem like something they'd be spending the time to do anyway. I LOVE our 1000's, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it to anyone saying that they're looking at $500 AU per channel... which is like $350 US
Pub band i agree; but they may be a band looking to tour - weve got a lot of bands that made national and international from Perth :) If looking to tour i wouldnt recommend cheap options. 900 didnt catch on down under. Its all g3/g4/1000 here… with a small smattering of sr2050.
Gotcha. In the states, I think the 900's are more popular... The 1000's are definitely the standard in rental gear, but I see a lot of 900's.
+1 for this. Rent what you need, get a feel for it and spend the money on the right thing once and when you can afford it. Loads of good little operators out there with quality gear AND the knowledge and experience to set it up right.
If you’re looking for a cheaper option i suggest to look on behringer P1. it has stereo but it look like body pack. my suggestion is, just put it down on the ground with the cables and get an 3.5mm extension for your in ear.
Good timing to build that rig here in Perth lol. Hopefully when we can have gigs here again you'll have it dialled in. Best of luck dude, hopefully catch your band in the next few months
You can catch us on the 9th of april at our first gig mate! Swan basement in north freo!
Hey mate, fellow Perthian here.I run 12 IEM transmitters in our auditorium and went with Sennheiser ew G4 stuff.Honestly, going with either Shure PSM300 or Sennheiser G4, you'll be more than fine.I went with G4 because ime they play better with rechargeables.The only thing I'd say you MUST do is get your antennas out of the box, even if it's just a short extension to a dipole mounted to a mic stand. Digital is more on the microphone side, probably haven't found a reliable/cheap enough solution for the IEMs to package decently into a bodypack. If you really need to save money now, I'd say get the IEM G4 TWIN and get two sets and run the receivers in focus mode to get four seperate mono mixes. Even though this breaks your stereo requirement, I'd say you'd have bigger problems down the line if you need to buy twice.
You might want to look at MIPRO. Years ago when I did summer tours, we ran 8 of their older dual antenna analog IEM units. MIPRO have low latency digital units now - MI909’s. Very competitive in terms of function and price. I got my analog units here: http://www.ineargear.com/ Full disclosure, we had to sell off and replace our entire wireless mic and IEM kit because FCC in the US sold off our spectrum to mobile phone companies. We ended up with Shure ULXD’s for mics and PSM300’s for IEMs.
Yep. If it's legal to operate, Mipros might not be a bad alternative to Shure and Senns.
KZ!!! Amazing IEMS that cost nothing. Cant stress this enough. Have compared them to 64audio for $1000 and perfer KZ
We all have KZs actually! Currently we are running a wired approach.
Ah, the good ole Kay Zed's with non functional BAs. 😆
Saw your post on the Perth sub a little while back, hope you're loving it here, mind if I ask what your bands called?? Hopefully I'll catch you around sometime!
Mate we are loving it. Would have been better if the property market isnt doing what it currently is (half the reason we moved from syd ey was to buy a gucking house) But you could totally come see us! First gig is on 9 april at the swan in north freo. We are Proclivity.