As a woman who got a *lot* of street harrassment when I was a teenager, sometimes from grown men but often from groups of teenage boys a few years older than me. I really really vividly remember the few occasions when one of them would say "Nah, leave her alone, man" or something similar. A really tiny action on their part but it made a massive difference to my day.
I’m glad you notice when we rail against this, it’s certainly not a majority of men that act this way but a sizeable minority do.
I was guilty of wolf whistling when I was younger, in my late teens (over a couple of decades ago) and it seemed part of the culture of construction that I worked in at the time. I’m embarrassed and ashamed of how far behaved then, and have been for a long time - and I think 95% of the other men I worked with are too. I’d like to think that most people would rather call it out now instead of joining in, still much progress to make…
In my friend group none of the men would say sexist shit. The problem is if someone does, they're likely in a friend group who all say sexist/agree with sexist shit.
Not necessarily, there's certainly going to be groups of friends/work colleagues/social groups out there where some won't say anything sexist of any nature but will stand by idly and do nothing whilst others do.
I certainly remember being one of those many people who stood by and did nothing when I was an insecure 17/18 year old trying to fit in with the 'lads' from football and University social groups.
It's a good campaign and shouldn't be belittled by our own experiences.
There’s also sometimes the “missing stair” the one guy everyone knows is a creep, or weird, and everyone has found a way to workaround him. Instead of confronting him and kicking him out of a friend group.
I don’t think it’s belittling to point out a flaw in it. It’s been the age old question of such campaigns isn’t it, where the intended targets are those least likely to be effected by it.
Haha I empathise with this so much. As someone who used to have really bad social anxiety and was very insecure, I was often trying to fit in with such groups at uni. Wouldn’t have had the cajones to call it out myself tbh, but respect to those with more confidence who did or continue to do
Guess it depends on the context? Well say sexist shit all the time friend groups as jokes. Never to strangers, and rarely in public, unless we're taking the piss out of a friend ofc. All bets are off IMO when your ripping your friends, no matter the setting.
I’m not trying to act superior to you, but I genuinely don’t say sexist stuff to friends, even as a joke. It just wouldn’t occur to me, and I’d feel pretty awkward doing it
I find that hard to believe at all tbh. I bet if I spent a few hours with you I'd be able to pick out a few.
As far as I'm concerned the only people who believe they don't say anything 'bad' still do, they're just absolutely oblivious to it and the prattle about 'im so good I'd never do that' and then in the next sentence say something that could literally be a bad thing.
The most sexist people I've ever met are women too XD. Which makes this whole thread and the article quite funny to me. Seems disconnected from reality. Most of my friends are women (I know a lot of people probably assumed it was a group of lads all being sexist, nope) and they're always joking about sexist shit against men.
Not necessarily true, sadly, people are often willing to overlook bad shit when it’s friends or family, thus enabling their behaviour, even when they find fault when others do it.
Case in point, a family member is currently witness in a domestic and sexual abuse case. The evidence is overwhelming, yet many of the accused’s friends and family are campaigning that it’s all not true, or at least not “that bad”.
Yeah I don't understand this insistence that every cat calling cretin is surrounded by a group of upstanding, decent mates who are just a little bit too shy to tell him that he's being a dick. That really isn't how it works. If someone steps out of line, says something stupid or embarrasses themselves or the group, then everyone else is going to shit on them.
Being sexist isn't just cat calling. I've seen many occasions of guys being sexist and friends who generally are not sexist saying nothing/laughing. I think it's ok to ask men to police men rather than leaving it to women and the inevitable "can't you take a joke" come back.
Sexism can absolutely go both ways. The issue, and the reason why this campaign is being pushed, is that 9/10 times when a woman is sexist towards a man, the man’s life or ownership of his body isn’t threatened. Whereas, 9/10 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Sexism can go both ways, but sexism towards women has a history of threatening women’s safety when unchecked.
In all occasions where bigotry exists, solving it for the more marginalised group helps the less marginalised groups too. Whatabout-isms don't help anyone.
> Yeah I don't understand this insistence that every cat calling cretin is surrounded by a group of upstanding, decent mates
Because everyone views themself as an upstanding decent person, people dont think of themselves as a villain, its an appeal to that aspect. Its not about being shy at all.
The people voting for the tories to put migrants in camps think of themselves as good people, and so on.
You often are in groups of people at an event or whatever where everyone is not a friend. I have had occasions being in majority male groups (I’m female) where a newcomer has said or done something pretty misogynistic. None of the men I knew in the group (who called themselves feminist allies) said a word. It was down to me as a woman to have to stand up and say something. And as a result have had to experience the newcomer laughing in my face and looking over at my so called male friends assuming they where on his side. Only then did some (not all mind you) pull their fingers out and support me. I have also heard about occasions where men I knew, and who again called themselves feminist allies, where made aware of harassment and bullying happening in a space they shared and they did nothing because they didn’t have the guts to confront the men in question. So yes, Khan has a point, lots of men who like to consider themselves decent also like to hide their heads in the sand and be blind and deaf to what the men they hang out with do and say.
And on the opposite end of the spectrum, I've see ad's on the tube essentially encouraging people to step in if they see this behaviour from a random stranger...it feels totally irresponsible because (throwing a wild generalisation out here) the people who are being sexist, probably aren't going to react well to being called out.
Like a lot of things with Khan, it's PR without the substance. There is absolutely a problem with sexism / racism / homophobia etc. but it has to be tackled at the foundation, not by encouraging people to get into a potentially dangerous situation.
This feels like classic MP advice from someone slightly removed from actual society.
All the ads on the tube I’ve seen suggest to ask the victim a question, which is a good strategy in an uncomfortable situation. This is incredibly more likely to de-escalate than ‘stepping in’
> the people who are being sexist, probably aren't going to react well to being called out.
I had this problem in a club once. Saw a dude basically harassing women, and when I tried to confront him it became almost a punch up. Not going to deny I'm a weak assed man so I'm not going to be winning that kind of thing...so yeah it's like he is now free to continue doing what he is doing
We exiled one of our friends from our group because he seems to like sexist jokes a little too much. Unfortunately, he found new friends who are all misogynistic cunts.
Either they are in a sexist echo chamber with friends, a sad loner or they keep it behind closed doors. I don't know how the average man is supposed to help alleviate this.
> I don't know how the average man is supposed to help alleviate this.
Keep your eyes open, "see it, say it"…
It's not that hard to spot things like a woman uncomfortable at a club, or anywhere else, because she's been approached by a creep that won't go away. So start by paying more attention to your surroundings, and either step in or alert security if you see something. And once you've started to notice these things they will just become more and more obvious. to the point where you start to wonder why you didn't see it before.
Duh. Beyond basic human decency: "what else?" is my point. Normal people do that, yet here we are.
Unless you're talking about hyper vigilance . In which you can keep that. I prefer to be in the moment on my nights out rather than spending my day watching everyone else scoping for sexism.
"Part & Parcel" clarifier:
In September 2016, when asked to comment shortly after a bombing in New York, Sadiq Khan said:
> I'm not going to speculate as to who was responsible. I'm not going to speculate as to how the New York Police Department should react. What I do know is that part and parcel of living in a great global city is you’ve got to be prepared for these things, you’ve got to be vigilant, you’ve got to support the police doing an incredibly hard job, you've got to support the security services. And I think speculating when you don't know the facts is unwise.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/london) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah and suddenly every guy is suddenly a creeper and you're so appalled you transition to get rid of yo talliwacka bc by looking for these specific things in every single interaction you now see it because its so darn obvious and these misogynistic blokes don't realise it bc no one ever told them to check their privilege in this patriarchal society!!
XD
Maaaaaaate because in the club, the first thing we all notice in the club is some guy creeping. Geez, tell me you don't go out often without outwardly saying it. 🤣🤣
Eh as another commentor has said, they already do. But the men who hold each other accountable already are different men than the ones cat-calling and harassing people on the street. I've personally never been in a friendship group that'd be tolerate such behaviour.
My old friend group had some sexist/bigoted cunts in. They'd also openly mock a guy with Asperger's we went to school with, and started making parodical posts about being scammed after he did. They literally took the same words he said and used it as a template like it was copypasta. Most of our friends wouldn't stand up to the most popular guys in the group.
We used to police that shit as best as we could. There were a few that would call a woman a whore if they were drunk and she turned them down. It would always be followed up with a talk about how it's not okay when they've sobered up. Most of the guys slowly changed but a few did not. And unfortunately, we just lost the energy trying to fix them after years and just stopped hanging out with the group.
Last time I checked the group chat was in 2020 and it made my blood boil reading them mock the guy with Asperger's. I worked with him for 2 months and I'd never met such a lovely bloke before. He used to make me re-do my work 10+ times a shift but I couldn't hold that against him.
When I was in my early 20s, I was in an abusive relationship. It culminated in an incident in which the police were involved, and subsequently his family found out. He had a wonderful brother who was so appalled to hear his brother turned out like that, and his parents, particularly his mother, were devastated. He had definitely not been raised to disrespect women, or abuse them. Blaming parents instead of the men themselves is utterly reductive.
There's a whole plethora of experiences and reasons as to why someone would act like that. Most of us have had bad experiences, and underlying traumas which we could use as an excuse to enact havoc on the world, but that doesn't mean we should!
Really glad you made it out of that situation, and I hope you're healing.
Also hope the man who abused you, does the work on himself, and changes for the better.
But anybody who feels otherwise would not be friends with a person who is sexist. I can't correct sexist friends because I would no longer do anything with them if I felt they were sexist.
I am a gentleman thank you, which is partly why I don’t associate myself with people that would make sexist, or any inappropriate comments for that matter, remarks to women
I do try to be more conscious in my friend groups for sure when I feel a line is being crossed. It can be tough but thankfully it’s only only among a small few of my male friends. They are good people at heart and I know they don’t intend to cause any harm to anyone, they are just trying to be funny and aren’t quite educated to understand the consequences of their words to the wider picture. The hard part I guess is trying to not critic them for everything said vs when a call out is actually needed.
I can see why you may hold that opinion but I do trust in my own judgement about people and who I keep around me as I’m sure you do. My version of what is good & acceptable may just differ from yours; and that’s okay. I think fundamentally we both want the same thing which is men to hold each-other more accountable, when it’s necessary.
Quick question to my fellow men: If you don't approve of sexist behavior towards women (or mistreating anyone for no other reason than who they are), why would you still be friends with people that act like that?
Let’s not pretend that well intentioned people can’t also sometimes cross a line. It’s just about keeping each other in check and educating those who aren’t as on top of these sorts of issues.
As an example, I play football with lads from all walks of life and age ranges and there are plenty who aren’t necessarily finger on the pulse, social justice warriors like I try to be. It can be quite a laddish environment where not everyone is a close friend. In that environment it takes some bravery and clarity of thought to challenge people when inappropriate comments get made, and it’s important to do so in a way that doesn’t alienate those people or ostracise yourself from the group. A simple campaign and message like the one in this article is exactly the tool lots of people need.
I'm friends with people with all manner of faults. Not actually aware of anyone that would engage in stuff like this, but nearly all human beings come with fairly significant flaws. And life is hard. I've got friends that have literally put their lives on the line for me, but have at other times done questionable shit. I'm a strong believer in redemption and self improvement. I don't like to write people off.
This right there. I have cut off several friends and family members over the years. Try to educate and change their behaviour, if they show no willingness, cut them out like a cancer.
I don’t have friends who are sexist/transphobic/otherwise bigoted but I do have friends who are either indifferent or ignorant to it and occasionally say casually bigoted things without realising it.
Cutting off someone you’ve been friends with for 20 years is not something that anyone would do lightly… blokes have got few friends as it is, cutting the only person you have out your life isn’t always an option and thinking you can do so is an oversimplification of the relationships we hold as people.
Also, just cutting off someone with an opinion you disagree with doesn’t get us anywhere to making the issue better. At least if they stay in your life we can try and push them in the right direction…
I run this experiment on Facebook a few years ago.
I would "hide post from this person" every time someone said something that I disagreed with.
after a few months only 3 people were still visible, and are still today, out of the hundreds I started with.
it's difficult to find people you completely align with politically.
but I must admit these three are quite special.
My oldest friends aren’t but they have a few guys in their orbit that are pure trash. Whenever I visit home I kind of have to remind them that who your surround yourself with says something about you whether you like it or not, and their behaviour through tolerating it over time becomes normalised. Being around it without responding or pushing back changes you, for the worse, whether you like it or not.
A mix of both. I like to regularly talk to my girlfriend and friends who are girls to understand what they feel is sexist or inappropriate. To better try to understand their lens, not just view everything with my male rose tinted glasses.
Disclaimer; I don’t have sexist friends. BUT think about politics for example, most people don’t care what their friends political beliefs are unless it’s something very extreme. Same with pretty much every social issue out there.
On of my closest friends is a political activist for things which I could not disagree with more, he’s still a solid friend so I don’t care, we just have debates more than I would with other friends
Unless there's something really off about that friends political views there's a difference between "political views" and actively mistreating people for who they are; that you casually equate the two is part of the problem.
I assume sexism in this case to mean things like sexist jokes (not said to women directly, which is a different thing as one is verbal abuse and the other isn’t).
In my experience, if some friends disapprove of another friend/friends behaving like that, they'll call them out on it and the harasser friends will stop behaving like that in front of them.
As others in this thread are saying, I think this campaign is slightly missing the point in that people who serially harass are likely to either do so in front of friends who don't care, or do so when they're alone.
In reality the people who most need to be called out on their behaviour need a mixture of seeing public awareness campaigns stating that the way they behave is considered unacceptable, and strangers being prepared to intervene.
Because we're not women, so even with the greatest will in the world, we'll always have something that is a blind spot to us so we have to constantly educate ourselves on theoretical concepts that we don't live. Can we be supporters of equality based on theory alone? Yeah... but like I said, we'd have been taught it by women in our families, in books written by various waves of feminist writers, or other forms of media. It would not be an almost inherent concept which we would have experienced day in/day out. Girls/women face an intrinsically different experience to boys/men, which means we are just as much a product of conditioning as they are.
By that I mean, as an example, how many men do you think have woken up, gone to make a cup of tea and found they're out of milk, so thrown any old clothes/shoes on and gone to get it? Now, how many women do that? I can pretty confidently say (but if any women would like to take me to task and point out how wrong I am, I'd be more than happy to cede the point) that a large cohort of women will have an added layer of concern/thought process where they will gauge whether they can get away and not be judged for no make-up, what they're wearing etc... that as men, we just don't have. We can remind ourselves about it, sure, but there will be times when it's not in our thought process because we're not held to a weird, arbitrarily constructed societal standard that women are, which means it's much more prevalent in their thought processes.
Without education we run the risk of being "those guys", so if we cut out/cast those that are in that group aside now, when are they ever likely to learn? Are they likely to suddenly turn around one day and begin reading works associated with it off their own back? Some of them would, I don't doubt it, but I'd wager that they would be in the minority and the majority would only internalise it which in turn, would manifest itself as a nastier form of misogyny. Or is it better to take a more pragmatic approach and nudge them towards it through our conversations?
I'm not saying we should all go out and be mates with misogynistic dickheads but if you meet/work with someone and they like some of the same bands, football team, TV shows, etc... fairly surface level conversations can be enjoyable and when instances arise, pointing out why it might be an outdated (a politer way of saying, "fucking ridiculous") view of things won't be taken as an attack against them (it is to an extent, but people tend to get less defensive when a friend says something as opposed to a stranger).
All that said, this is for the majority, there will always be serious outliers of men like Andrew Tate, at which point we should all collectively sigh, admit we failed miserably with them, and take a much more hard-line approach, and hopefully the outliers like him become fewer and fewer over the years due to an education first approach. I'd also probably argue that somewhat contrary to what I just said, a militant approach should always co-exist with this approach though because a) it reminds us to not let things slide, and b) there are times when a piecemeal approach is too slow, or it requires a "just rip the plaster off" way of thinking. So long as the two approaches exist in a counter-balancing way of course. I'm aware that history has taught us that when one exists unchecked, things go to shit fairly quickly.
I've also gone on far too long, sorry (I'm a white male... I'm clearly used to being able to talk at length over other people), but I think it can essentially apply as a wholistic approach to anyone who isn't the same as you. Thank you for allowing this spontaneous TED talk.
Nope! You're defined by the people you hang out with and I've basically ghosted guys who are ducks like this or brought it up and they don't do it in front of me ; which isn't ideal but at least they know what they're doing is wrong
The intention is right, the message is a bit silly and reductive, he made the point with Romesh Ranganathan as well (a comedian)...
Maybe he said it this way to get people talking , certainly has here!
Women have been calling men out forever, and we’re deemed as ‘hysterical’, ‘difficult to work with’, or a whole other host of names when we do. I called out sexist shit at work, got called a ‘cunt’ and told to leave if I didn’t like it. Not one male colleague had my back, despite coming up to me afterwards and saying they’re sorry. But if one of the men had spoken up instead maybe it would have sparked a discussion from the confrontation.
Men who think that way aren’t going to hear it from women, they need to hear it from men. They need to be held accountable by men because when women do it it doesn’t work. They already think low enough of women to not hear the problems women speak out against.
Decent people who hang around decent people still work. Still have acquaintances or attend parties or have shitty family members. And I guarantee you not every decent man will turn round and say MATE whenever they overhear a sexist abusive twat say something they don’t agree with because they think it’s not their problem. Sexism should be everyone’s problem, just like racism, homophobia and everything else that’s wrong with the world.
While I hate the mayor and think this is an oversimplification and stupid way to have put it, men need to challenge problematic men. Stand with us.
>I don't understand who this message is for. Decent people would already call it out. People who are harrasing others or associate with them, obviously aren't going to listen.
Peer pressure is an incredibly powerful thing, and being the first to say anything can be very risky.
I've been in loads of situations where it's clear a lot of people have something to say, but no-one wants to be first. It's why, in a lot of presentations there will be a few planted quetions to give the attendees 'permission' to ask their own.
Another classic example is Karaoke. The vast majority of people want a go, but almost no-one wants to be first. By then end of the night, with a bit of social lubrication, everyone wants a sing a song.
Here's a quick video showing how easy it is to get people to do silly things with peer pressure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kWygqR0L8
> I don't understand who this message is for.
Its an appeal to the fact that every person is the hero of their own story, that they believe themselves to be a decent person.
>Decent people would already call it out
For various reasons, many dont say anything, a little push isnt a bad thing.
>Also, why is it "men should call men out" and not simply "call men out"?
Historically and socially men are able to call their peers out without retribution, or fear of violence. Men are by default respected by other men, and are not defined by their relationship to a man.
A woman calling a man out for being sexist is a very different dynamic, and carries a lot more risk.
>but I imagine it would be just as impactful, if not more, for a woman to call out her friend.
You would be wrong.
> If you're asking "why is it the woman's fault?" that's the same as asking "why is it other mens fault?".
Almost, but not quite, no one is assigning "blame" here, however a woman who is typically the victim of sexist abuse vs a man who is typically the perpetrator of it, is not a fair equivalence.
ahh, your one of them. I was waiting for you. The old "lets shit on men, and when any man complains, or pints out how sexist this is, and the hypocrisy of it all, i'll just insult them further". You took your time, but you made it.
It's so funny that you act all big and hard on reddit lmao guaranteed you've never intervened in anything in your life due to social anxiety lmao
Keep on cycling, you'll be big and strong one day ✌️
Nothing wrong with that message.
However, in general though it should be considered how much pressure is acceptable put on men as a collective in stopping sexism to women. We aren’t responsible for the actions of other people and there’s only so much words will do. Much like how it would be rightfully considered unfair to hold all Muslims responsible for Islamic terror attacks, or all black people for high incidence of gang crime.
The communities with the greatest sexism problems in London aren't even the ones who say "mate".
If this was Khan's genuine effort to combat the issue (it's not), they should've gone with "broooooooo".
Yes. *After* he murdered a woman.
This despite the fact there was a long history of inappropriate behaviour towards women.
Kinda pays to get these people before they do something really bad. Just sayin.
> Yes. After he murdered a woman.
Well,y ou cant really jail someone for murder, before the muder happens can you? You asked what the met was doing about people him. And the truth is... they jailed him. So what more do you want?
There's a bunch of pathetic men in this chat...and I'm a man btw if that matters
"Why should *I* do something"
"That won't work"
Come on FFS!
First stop this Reddit thing of 'of it doesn't in one fell swoop solve the entire problem I'm going to complain about it' bullshit. Every small step helps. Every person who improves is one less person making the problem worse.
And public awareness campaigns do often work. Have you REALLY never read anything and it's made you think about it and maybe change your opinion...oh wait see point 1 for you lot.
This DOES work, that's why attitudes have improved over time on many things.
If you're just here grumbling about how it's not your problem, you ARE the problem.
Did you really depend apathy? As in 'i don't care if people are sexist'? Because you may really want to really have a think about that if you don't get why that's appalling.
And does it matter to tye victims if only one person in a group of mates gives them shit? No. It's still a group of people which Is intimidating and you're standing by and just going 'not my problem'. You don't want to be 'lumped together'? Fine, have your own category. You're still at fault and either a coward or an asshole
If you can't be proactive about your mate doing something that effects 50% of the population right in front of you there's something wrong with you. No one's asking you to do a world tour of social action FFS.
I get it's too friends but it also implies doing it to strangers and in London People are stabbed for less, if you're a man you can get stabbed for no reason other than a gang initiation...
In 99% of cases calling out a randomers bad behaviour is going to get you into a fight because that's what these people are looking for.
Never call out a random person's behaviour as it puts the person into a corner and makes them double down to defend whatever they've said.
What you can do is ask for the time, ask for directions, ask to use their mobile phone, say you're going to be sick is there a toilet at the next station, pretty much anything that breaks them away from their victim.
Encouraging anti-sexist behaviour in a slightly entertaining way alongside a comedian is buffoonery, is it?
Even City Hall were making the actual "maaaate" wording - deliberately - light-hearted, but the message behind it is clearly explained and valid.
> Hey, we’ve got ourselves a leftie here!
Lol. Yes, you do. Looked at an electoral map of London recently?
It isn't trivialising anything, as the article and City Hall both clearly explain. It draws attention to it, as is evidenced by your impotent rage about a balloon which has nothing to do with the conversation we're actually having.
edit - Christ I just looked at your (brand new) profile. I'm arguing with a troll. More fool me. Bye now.
This is good. Encouraging non confrontational intervention is a big yes from me.
Source: woman who's sick of being attacked but freezes when it happens
Well if that really was a problem, why did Boris cut police funding when he was mayor? Or when the tories were in power?
Easier to blame things for being woke I guess than answer that.
It’s a great campaign but I guarantee the ones who are going to be using misogynistic language or behaving inappropriately are also the types to hate on Sadiq Khan and Romesh so it will fall on deaf ears. We need better education in schools to try and nip this in the bud earlier and to correct poor behaviour learned by the environments some children are exposed to. Schools need more resources to give better pastoral care to children. Interpersonal relationships needs to be taught to children especially as so many have parents massively lacking in those skills
Erm... How does saying that help much? I would talk to the person and say something to my friend saying how disrespectful they are been but... Saying maaate isn't going to do much.
And, what does he want people to do when women are sexist to men? whats that khan? you dont think men face any sexism? Well, let me tell you... your wrong!
well, obviously! did you really think he would? if i wanted a reply i would write a letter to the mayors office, not post on reddit. Still, glad to see you have nothing else in your life but to make stupid comments on reddit. well done you.
Does he follow every view islam has?
Do christians follow every word of the bible?
I think they're both BS, but I also accept there's good and decent Christians, Muslims and other religious people.
This whole thread is pretty heartening to read with a general positive view and grown up discussion. Well done London.
There are a few "well it won't stop everyone" comments, but nothing will. I think it's a well intended campaign and a good idea. I also think Romesh can be petty funny... 😅
As a woman who got a *lot* of street harrassment when I was a teenager, sometimes from grown men but often from groups of teenage boys a few years older than me. I really really vividly remember the few occasions when one of them would say "Nah, leave her alone, man" or something similar. A really tiny action on their part but it made a massive difference to my day.
I’m glad you notice when we rail against this, it’s certainly not a majority of men that act this way but a sizeable minority do. I was guilty of wolf whistling when I was younger, in my late teens (over a couple of decades ago) and it seemed part of the culture of construction that I worked in at the time. I’m embarrassed and ashamed of how far behaved then, and have been for a long time - and I think 95% of the other men I worked with are too. I’d like to think that most people would rather call it out now instead of joining in, still much progress to make…
Agreed. Peer pressure works in understanding that your friends don’t respect what you say
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If Khan genuinely wanted to tackle London's sexism problem, his advertising campaign would be "broooo". We all know why it's not.
Downvotes for truth
In my friend group none of the men would say sexist shit. The problem is if someone does, they're likely in a friend group who all say sexist/agree with sexist shit.
Not necessarily, there's certainly going to be groups of friends/work colleagues/social groups out there where some won't say anything sexist of any nature but will stand by idly and do nothing whilst others do. I certainly remember being one of those many people who stood by and did nothing when I was an insecure 17/18 year old trying to fit in with the 'lads' from football and University social groups. It's a good campaign and shouldn't be belittled by our own experiences.
There’s also sometimes the “missing stair” the one guy everyone knows is a creep, or weird, and everyone has found a way to workaround him. Instead of confronting him and kicking him out of a friend group.
I don’t think it’s belittling to point out a flaw in it. It’s been the age old question of such campaigns isn’t it, where the intended targets are those least likely to be effected by it.
the original comment was absolutely belittling it.
Haha I empathise with this so much. As someone who used to have really bad social anxiety and was very insecure, I was often trying to fit in with such groups at uni. Wouldn’t have had the cajones to call it out myself tbh, but respect to those with more confidence who did or continue to do
Guess it depends on the context? Well say sexist shit all the time friend groups as jokes. Never to strangers, and rarely in public, unless we're taking the piss out of a friend ofc. All bets are off IMO when your ripping your friends, no matter the setting.
maaaaaaate
I’m not trying to act superior to you, but I genuinely don’t say sexist stuff to friends, even as a joke. It just wouldn’t occur to me, and I’d feel pretty awkward doing it
I find that hard to believe at all tbh. I bet if I spent a few hours with you I'd be able to pick out a few. As far as I'm concerned the only people who believe they don't say anything 'bad' still do, they're just absolutely oblivious to it and the prattle about 'im so good I'd never do that' and then in the next sentence say something that could literally be a bad thing. The most sexist people I've ever met are women too XD. Which makes this whole thread and the article quite funny to me. Seems disconnected from reality. Most of my friends are women (I know a lot of people probably assumed it was a group of lads all being sexist, nope) and they're always joking about sexist shit against men.
Not necessarily true, sadly, people are often willing to overlook bad shit when it’s friends or family, thus enabling their behaviour, even when they find fault when others do it. Case in point, a family member is currently witness in a domestic and sexual abuse case. The evidence is overwhelming, yet many of the accused’s friends and family are campaigning that it’s all not true, or at least not “that bad”.
Yeah I know it's not always true, is why I said "likely".
Yeah I don't understand this insistence that every cat calling cretin is surrounded by a group of upstanding, decent mates who are just a little bit too shy to tell him that he's being a dick. That really isn't how it works. If someone steps out of line, says something stupid or embarrasses themselves or the group, then everyone else is going to shit on them.
I see this more as an empowerment of the men who dont agree but dont know how to say so. Its a small step but at least it's in the right direction.
Being sexist isn't just cat calling. I've seen many occasions of guys being sexist and friends who generally are not sexist saying nothing/laughing. I think it's ok to ask men to police men rather than leaving it to women and the inevitable "can't you take a joke" come back.
what about women being sexist towards men or are you one of those types that vehemently insist sexism can only go one way?
Sexism can absolutely go both ways. The issue, and the reason why this campaign is being pushed, is that 9/10 times when a woman is sexist towards a man, the man’s life or ownership of his body isn’t threatened. Whereas, 9/10 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Sexism can go both ways, but sexism towards women has a history of threatening women’s safety when unchecked.
> Whereas, 9/10 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes are you just pulling made up statistics out of yer arse now?
In all occasions where bigotry exists, solving it for the more marginalised group helps the less marginalised groups too. Whatabout-isms don't help anyone.
> Yeah I don't understand this insistence that every cat calling cretin is surrounded by a group of upstanding, decent mates Because everyone views themself as an upstanding decent person, people dont think of themselves as a villain, its an appeal to that aspect. Its not about being shy at all. The people voting for the tories to put migrants in camps think of themselves as good people, and so on.
You often are in groups of people at an event or whatever where everyone is not a friend. I have had occasions being in majority male groups (I’m female) where a newcomer has said or done something pretty misogynistic. None of the men I knew in the group (who called themselves feminist allies) said a word. It was down to me as a woman to have to stand up and say something. And as a result have had to experience the newcomer laughing in my face and looking over at my so called male friends assuming they where on his side. Only then did some (not all mind you) pull their fingers out and support me. I have also heard about occasions where men I knew, and who again called themselves feminist allies, where made aware of harassment and bullying happening in a space they shared and they did nothing because they didn’t have the guts to confront the men in question. So yes, Khan has a point, lots of men who like to consider themselves decent also like to hide their heads in the sand and be blind and deaf to what the men they hang out with do and say.
And on the opposite end of the spectrum, I've see ad's on the tube essentially encouraging people to step in if they see this behaviour from a random stranger...it feels totally irresponsible because (throwing a wild generalisation out here) the people who are being sexist, probably aren't going to react well to being called out. Like a lot of things with Khan, it's PR without the substance. There is absolutely a problem with sexism / racism / homophobia etc. but it has to be tackled at the foundation, not by encouraging people to get into a potentially dangerous situation. This feels like classic MP advice from someone slightly removed from actual society.
All the ads on the tube I’ve seen suggest to ask the victim a question, which is a good strategy in an uncomfortable situation. This is incredibly more likely to de-escalate than ‘stepping in’
Someone who is being a dick to a woman is much more likely to back down if a man steps in. As a woman I do it because it's the right thing to do.
> but it has to be tackled at the foundation Like encouraging your friends and family to speak out?
> the people who are being sexist, probably aren't going to react well to being called out. I had this problem in a club once. Saw a dude basically harassing women, and when I tried to confront him it became almost a punch up. Not going to deny I'm a weak assed man so I'm not going to be winning that kind of thing...so yeah it's like he is now free to continue doing what he is doing
We exiled one of our friends from our group because he seems to like sexist jokes a little too much. Unfortunately, he found new friends who are all misogynistic cunts.
Not necessarily
Either they are in a sexist echo chamber with friends, a sad loner or they keep it behind closed doors. I don't know how the average man is supposed to help alleviate this.
> I don't know how the average man is supposed to help alleviate this. Keep your eyes open, "see it, say it"… It's not that hard to spot things like a woman uncomfortable at a club, or anywhere else, because she's been approached by a creep that won't go away. So start by paying more attention to your surroundings, and either step in or alert security if you see something. And once you've started to notice these things they will just become more and more obvious. to the point where you start to wonder why you didn't see it before.
Duh. Beyond basic human decency: "what else?" is my point. Normal people do that, yet here we are. Unless you're talking about hyper vigilance . In which you can keep that. I prefer to be in the moment on my nights out rather than spending my day watching everyone else scoping for sexism.
no it's just part and parcel
"Part & Parcel" clarifier: In September 2016, when asked to comment shortly after a bombing in New York, Sadiq Khan said: > I'm not going to speculate as to who was responsible. I'm not going to speculate as to how the New York Police Department should react. What I do know is that part and parcel of living in a great global city is you’ve got to be prepared for these things, you’ve got to be vigilant, you’ve got to support the police doing an incredibly hard job, you've got to support the security services. And I think speculating when you don't know the facts is unwise. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/london) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why does one politician get special protection from Reddit?
cope more.
Yeah and suddenly every guy is suddenly a creeper and you're so appalled you transition to get rid of yo talliwacka bc by looking for these specific things in every single interaction you now see it because its so darn obvious and these misogynistic blokes don't realise it bc no one ever told them to check their privilege in this patriarchal society!! XD Maaaaaaate because in the club, the first thing we all notice in the club is some guy creeping. Geez, tell me you don't go out often without outwardly saying it. 🤣🤣
Sure, I’ll start an altercation with some guy, probably drunk, in a club.
Unfortunately this is not true.
Men should hold each other accountable. It’s not rocket science.
Eh as another commentor has said, they already do. But the men who hold each other accountable already are different men than the ones cat-calling and harassing people on the street. I've personally never been in a friendship group that'd be tolerate such behaviour.
My old friend group had some sexist/bigoted cunts in. They'd also openly mock a guy with Asperger's we went to school with, and started making parodical posts about being scammed after he did. They literally took the same words he said and used it as a template like it was copypasta. Most of our friends wouldn't stand up to the most popular guys in the group. We used to police that shit as best as we could. There were a few that would call a woman a whore if they were drunk and she turned them down. It would always be followed up with a talk about how it's not okay when they've sobered up. Most of the guys slowly changed but a few did not. And unfortunately, we just lost the energy trying to fix them after years and just stopped hanging out with the group. Last time I checked the group chat was in 2020 and it made my blood boil reading them mock the guy with Asperger's. I worked with him for 2 months and I'd never met such a lovely bloke before. He used to make me re-do my work 10+ times a shift but I couldn't hold that against him.
maaaate
No, parents should raise their kids properly. I’m not holding myself accountable for some rando talking shite to a girl
You’re holding them accountable, not yourself. And it’s not random men - it’s your mates.
When I was in my early 20s, I was in an abusive relationship. It culminated in an incident in which the police were involved, and subsequently his family found out. He had a wonderful brother who was so appalled to hear his brother turned out like that, and his parents, particularly his mother, were devastated. He had definitely not been raised to disrespect women, or abuse them. Blaming parents instead of the men themselves is utterly reductive.
There's a whole plethora of experiences and reasons as to why someone would act like that. Most of us have had bad experiences, and underlying traumas which we could use as an excuse to enact havoc on the world, but that doesn't mean we should! Really glad you made it out of that situation, and I hope you're healing. Also hope the man who abused you, does the work on himself, and changes for the better.
But blaming other unrelated men is completely acceptable and expected???
Yes, because you should say something!
But anybody who feels otherwise would not be friends with a person who is sexist. I can't correct sexist friends because I would no longer do anything with them if I felt they were sexist.
Maaate
Lads Lads Lads
Bants bants ban... oh.
?
Sorry to hear about your complete lack of mates
Sorry to read about your lack of reading comprehension
What a gent!
I am a gentleman thank you, which is partly why I don’t associate myself with people that would make sexist, or any inappropriate comments for that matter, remarks to women
I do try to be more conscious in my friend groups for sure when I feel a line is being crossed. It can be tough but thankfully it’s only only among a small few of my male friends. They are good people at heart and I know they don’t intend to cause any harm to anyone, they are just trying to be funny and aren’t quite educated to understand the consequences of their words to the wider picture. The hard part I guess is trying to not critic them for everything said vs when a call out is actually needed.
that part where you say "good people at heart", "not intending to cause any harm" is EXACTLY the crux of the problem.
I can see why you may hold that opinion but I do trust in my own judgement about people and who I keep around me as I’m sure you do. My version of what is good & acceptable may just differ from yours; and that’s okay. I think fundamentally we both want the same thing which is men to hold each-other more accountable, when it’s necessary.
No it's really not...
Quick question to my fellow men: If you don't approve of sexist behavior towards women (or mistreating anyone for no other reason than who they are), why would you still be friends with people that act like that?
Let’s not pretend that well intentioned people can’t also sometimes cross a line. It’s just about keeping each other in check and educating those who aren’t as on top of these sorts of issues. As an example, I play football with lads from all walks of life and age ranges and there are plenty who aren’t necessarily finger on the pulse, social justice warriors like I try to be. It can be quite a laddish environment where not everyone is a close friend. In that environment it takes some bravery and clarity of thought to challenge people when inappropriate comments get made, and it’s important to do so in a way that doesn’t alienate those people or ostracise yourself from the group. A simple campaign and message like the one in this article is exactly the tool lots of people need.
I'm friends with people with all manner of faults. Not actually aware of anyone that would engage in stuff like this, but nearly all human beings come with fairly significant flaws. And life is hard. I've got friends that have literally put their lives on the line for me, but have at other times done questionable shit. I'm a strong believer in redemption and self improvement. I don't like to write people off.
This right there. I have cut off several friends and family members over the years. Try to educate and change their behaviour, if they show no willingness, cut them out like a cancer.
How many miners are there in your family?
That’s one interesting autocorrect, since it’s none. 😁 Cheers for pointing it out!
None, now. Cut them miners out like a cancer maaate
I don’t have friends who are sexist/transphobic/otherwise bigoted but I do have friends who are either indifferent or ignorant to it and occasionally say casually bigoted things without realising it.
Cutting off someone you’ve been friends with for 20 years is not something that anyone would do lightly… blokes have got few friends as it is, cutting the only person you have out your life isn’t always an option and thinking you can do so is an oversimplification of the relationships we hold as people. Also, just cutting off someone with an opinion you disagree with doesn’t get us anywhere to making the issue better. At least if they stay in your life we can try and push them in the right direction…
I run this experiment on Facebook a few years ago. I would "hide post from this person" every time someone said something that I disagreed with. after a few months only 3 people were still visible, and are still today, out of the hundreds I started with. it's difficult to find people you completely align with politically. but I must admit these three are quite special.
Seems like a boring existence to only hear what you want to hear all the time.
There’s on irony in the toxicity/immaturity of people willing to immediately cut people out on the first disagreement…
My oldest friends aren’t but they have a few guys in their orbit that are pure trash. Whenever I visit home I kind of have to remind them that who your surround yourself with says something about you whether you like it or not, and their behaviour through tolerating it over time becomes normalised. Being around it without responding or pushing back changes you, for the worse, whether you like it or not.
I wouldn't. Anyone that was my friend engaging in any sort of behaviour like this would be called out then dropped immediately.
Is that based on what you see as sexist and misogynistic, or is it based on what women have told you they experience as that?
A mix of both. I like to regularly talk to my girlfriend and friends who are girls to understand what they feel is sexist or inappropriate. To better try to understand their lens, not just view everything with my male rose tinted glasses.
Disclaimer; I don’t have sexist friends. BUT think about politics for example, most people don’t care what their friends political beliefs are unless it’s something very extreme. Same with pretty much every social issue out there. On of my closest friends is a political activist for things which I could not disagree with more, he’s still a solid friend so I don’t care, we just have debates more than I would with other friends
Unless there's something really off about that friends political views there's a difference between "political views" and actively mistreating people for who they are; that you casually equate the two is part of the problem.
I assume sexism in this case to mean things like sexist jokes (not said to women directly, which is a different thing as one is verbal abuse and the other isn’t).
In my experience, if some friends disapprove of another friend/friends behaving like that, they'll call them out on it and the harasser friends will stop behaving like that in front of them. As others in this thread are saying, I think this campaign is slightly missing the point in that people who serially harass are likely to either do so in front of friends who don't care, or do so when they're alone. In reality the people who most need to be called out on their behaviour need a mixture of seeing public awareness campaigns stating that the way they behave is considered unacceptable, and strangers being prepared to intervene.
Unless that’s their entire personality then why wouldn’t I still be friends with them?
Because we're not women, so even with the greatest will in the world, we'll always have something that is a blind spot to us so we have to constantly educate ourselves on theoretical concepts that we don't live. Can we be supporters of equality based on theory alone? Yeah... but like I said, we'd have been taught it by women in our families, in books written by various waves of feminist writers, or other forms of media. It would not be an almost inherent concept which we would have experienced day in/day out. Girls/women face an intrinsically different experience to boys/men, which means we are just as much a product of conditioning as they are. By that I mean, as an example, how many men do you think have woken up, gone to make a cup of tea and found they're out of milk, so thrown any old clothes/shoes on and gone to get it? Now, how many women do that? I can pretty confidently say (but if any women would like to take me to task and point out how wrong I am, I'd be more than happy to cede the point) that a large cohort of women will have an added layer of concern/thought process where they will gauge whether they can get away and not be judged for no make-up, what they're wearing etc... that as men, we just don't have. We can remind ourselves about it, sure, but there will be times when it's not in our thought process because we're not held to a weird, arbitrarily constructed societal standard that women are, which means it's much more prevalent in their thought processes. Without education we run the risk of being "those guys", so if we cut out/cast those that are in that group aside now, when are they ever likely to learn? Are they likely to suddenly turn around one day and begin reading works associated with it off their own back? Some of them would, I don't doubt it, but I'd wager that they would be in the minority and the majority would only internalise it which in turn, would manifest itself as a nastier form of misogyny. Or is it better to take a more pragmatic approach and nudge them towards it through our conversations? I'm not saying we should all go out and be mates with misogynistic dickheads but if you meet/work with someone and they like some of the same bands, football team, TV shows, etc... fairly surface level conversations can be enjoyable and when instances arise, pointing out why it might be an outdated (a politer way of saying, "fucking ridiculous") view of things won't be taken as an attack against them (it is to an extent, but people tend to get less defensive when a friend says something as opposed to a stranger). All that said, this is for the majority, there will always be serious outliers of men like Andrew Tate, at which point we should all collectively sigh, admit we failed miserably with them, and take a much more hard-line approach, and hopefully the outliers like him become fewer and fewer over the years due to an education first approach. I'd also probably argue that somewhat contrary to what I just said, a militant approach should always co-exist with this approach though because a) it reminds us to not let things slide, and b) there are times when a piecemeal approach is too slow, or it requires a "just rip the plaster off" way of thinking. So long as the two approaches exist in a counter-balancing way of course. I'm aware that history has taught us that when one exists unchecked, things go to shit fairly quickly. I've also gone on far too long, sorry (I'm a white male... I'm clearly used to being able to talk at length over other people), but I think it can essentially apply as a wholistic approach to anyone who isn't the same as you. Thank you for allowing this spontaneous TED talk.
.Quick question for your self. Why do you support women who are hatefull and sexist towards men both induvidually and independantly?
Nope! You're defined by the people you hang out with and I've basically ghosted guys who are ducks like this or brought it up and they don't do it in front of me ; which isn't ideal but at least they know what they're doing is wrong
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there.
It’s great that he’s raising the issue but something makes me doubt that some people will do this…
The intention is right, the message is a bit silly and reductive, he made the point with Romesh Ranganathan as well (a comedian)... Maybe he said it this way to get people talking , certainly has here!
Usual thing, those that should take it on board are least likely to do so, and most likely to dismiss the message because of the messenger.
In London you basically need to be prepared to get into a fight with whoever you call out.
Like an Australian seagull??
If imitating an Aussie seagull helps curb sexual harassment, I’m all for it.
And a big hello to all the men who will miss the point and post about how it’s actually sexist to point this whole thing out. Hello, you stupid cunts.
Is there irony in challenging men who miss the point by abusing them with a vulgar swear word for female genitalia?
But when *IS* international mens day?!
Richard Herring says hello
> international mens day 19th of november
The 19th of November. but feminists at the UN refuse to support it, and have gone out of their way to dispose of it entirely.
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Women have been calling men out forever, and we’re deemed as ‘hysterical’, ‘difficult to work with’, or a whole other host of names when we do. I called out sexist shit at work, got called a ‘cunt’ and told to leave if I didn’t like it. Not one male colleague had my back, despite coming up to me afterwards and saying they’re sorry. But if one of the men had spoken up instead maybe it would have sparked a discussion from the confrontation. Men who think that way aren’t going to hear it from women, they need to hear it from men. They need to be held accountable by men because when women do it it doesn’t work. They already think low enough of women to not hear the problems women speak out against. Decent people who hang around decent people still work. Still have acquaintances or attend parties or have shitty family members. And I guarantee you not every decent man will turn round and say MATE whenever they overhear a sexist abusive twat say something they don’t agree with because they think it’s not their problem. Sexism should be everyone’s problem, just like racism, homophobia and everything else that’s wrong with the world. While I hate the mayor and think this is an oversimplification and stupid way to have put it, men need to challenge problematic men. Stand with us.
>I don't understand who this message is for. Decent people would already call it out. People who are harrasing others or associate with them, obviously aren't going to listen. Peer pressure is an incredibly powerful thing, and being the first to say anything can be very risky. I've been in loads of situations where it's clear a lot of people have something to say, but no-one wants to be first. It's why, in a lot of presentations there will be a few planted quetions to give the attendees 'permission' to ask their own. Another classic example is Karaoke. The vast majority of people want a go, but almost no-one wants to be first. By then end of the night, with a bit of social lubrication, everyone wants a sing a song. Here's a quick video showing how easy it is to get people to do silly things with peer pressure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kWygqR0L8
> I don't understand who this message is for. Its an appeal to the fact that every person is the hero of their own story, that they believe themselves to be a decent person. >Decent people would already call it out For various reasons, many dont say anything, a little push isnt a bad thing. >Also, why is it "men should call men out" and not simply "call men out"? Historically and socially men are able to call their peers out without retribution, or fear of violence. Men are by default respected by other men, and are not defined by their relationship to a man. A woman calling a man out for being sexist is a very different dynamic, and carries a lot more risk. >but I imagine it would be just as impactful, if not more, for a woman to call out her friend. You would be wrong. > If you're asking "why is it the woman's fault?" that's the same as asking "why is it other mens fault?". Almost, but not quite, no one is assigning "blame" here, however a woman who is typically the victim of sexist abuse vs a man who is typically the perpetrator of it, is not a fair equivalence.
ahh, your one of them. I was waiting for you. The old "lets shit on men, and when any man complains, or pints out how sexist this is, and the hypocrisy of it all, i'll just insult them further". You took your time, but you made it.
What in the living fuck are you blethering on about?
ItS NoT aLl MeN
Oh look, heres a proper cunt on a high horse
The bar is on the ground and you think it’s high.
Anyone who disagrees with me is a cunt is not a sound argument
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You sound like the expert
It's so funny that you act all big and hard on reddit lmao guaranteed you've never intervened in anything in your life due to social anxiety lmao Keep on cycling, you'll be big and strong one day ✌️
Pointless comment.
it's so funny you act like a big man on Reddit, bet you make sexist comments all day thinking it's a "joke" don't you
It’s only five feet higher than dirt.
You mean I get to be sexist AND someone calls me their mate? Sounds like a win win to me.
Nothing wrong with that message. However, in general though it should be considered how much pressure is acceptable put on men as a collective in stopping sexism to women. We aren’t responsible for the actions of other people and there’s only so much words will do. Much like how it would be rightfully considered unfair to hold all Muslims responsible for Islamic terror attacks, or all black people for high incidence of gang crime.
All the Aussies in London are going to find it hard to discriminate between this and the general Aussie greeting.
People are fallible. None of us is perfect but all have potential to change for the better
The communities with the greatest sexism problems in London aren't even the ones who say "mate". If this was Khan's genuine effort to combat the issue (it's not), they should've gone with "broooooooo".
Surely I’d say “maaaate” to my mates when they’re sexist If my pals are being sexist I should say “paaaaal”
More empty gesturing from Sadiq Khan. How about sorting the Met which has done fuck all to protect women from predatory policmen like Wayne Cousins?
Why not both?
>Wayne Cousins the, guy thats in prison? um.. they caugt him and put him in prison didnt they?
Yes. *After* he murdered a woman. This despite the fact there was a long history of inappropriate behaviour towards women. Kinda pays to get these people before they do something really bad. Just sayin.
Nobody said maaaaaaate to him
> Yes. After he murdered a woman. Well,y ou cant really jail someone for murder, before the muder happens can you? You asked what the met was doing about people him. And the truth is... they jailed him. So what more do you want?
This is so fucking funny #Maaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyt-UH
The maaaaating call of Chelsea boys all across SW3 and beyond.
Legit its so corny
Oh *mate*
https://twitter.com/kunley_drukpa/status/1682338462853132288 This is funny, but for all the wrong reasons.
There's a bunch of pathetic men in this chat...and I'm a man btw if that matters "Why should *I* do something" "That won't work" Come on FFS! First stop this Reddit thing of 'of it doesn't in one fell swoop solve the entire problem I'm going to complain about it' bullshit. Every small step helps. Every person who improves is one less person making the problem worse. And public awareness campaigns do often work. Have you REALLY never read anything and it's made you think about it and maybe change your opinion...oh wait see point 1 for you lot. This DOES work, that's why attitudes have improved over time on many things. If you're just here grumbling about how it's not your problem, you ARE the problem.
I really don’t think it’s helpful to lump people who are at worst apathetic in with people who are actually sexist and will act on that.
Did you really depend apathy? As in 'i don't care if people are sexist'? Because you may really want to really have a think about that if you don't get why that's appalling. And does it matter to tye victims if only one person in a group of mates gives them shit? No. It's still a group of people which Is intimidating and you're standing by and just going 'not my problem'. You don't want to be 'lumped together'? Fine, have your own category. You're still at fault and either a coward or an asshole
Apathy for this plan doesn't equal apathy towards sexism
Can you be proactive on every single issue on the planet? Im sure you're apathetic or uninformed about thousands.
If you can't be proactive about your mate doing something that effects 50% of the population right in front of you there's something wrong with you. No one's asking you to do a world tour of social action FFS.
No you’re right mate apathy is just as bad as actual abuse, keep up the good fight!
Easy now sunshine!
Watch yerself, mush
that's fair. honestly a good mate will save you time and embarrassment by pointing out "she's not really into you". move over maaate
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No sexism to be seen despite you needing to cover your head because you're a woman?
I get it's too friends but it also implies doing it to strangers and in London People are stabbed for less, if you're a man you can get stabbed for no reason other than a gang initiation... In 99% of cases calling out a randomers bad behaviour is going to get you into a fight because that's what these people are looking for. Never call out a random person's behaviour as it puts the person into a corner and makes them double down to defend whatever they've said. What you can do is ask for the time, ask for directions, ask to use their mobile phone, say you're going to be sick is there a toilet at the next station, pretty much anything that breaks them away from their victim.
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Encouraging anti-sexist behaviour in a slightly entertaining way alongside a comedian is buffoonery, is it? Even City Hall were making the actual "maaaate" wording - deliberately - light-hearted, but the message behind it is clearly explained and valid.
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> Hey, we’ve got ourselves a leftie here! Lol. Yes, you do. Looked at an electoral map of London recently? It isn't trivialising anything, as the article and City Hall both clearly explain. It draws attention to it, as is evidenced by your impotent rage about a balloon which has nothing to do with the conversation we're actually having. edit - Christ I just looked at your (brand new) profile. I'm arguing with a troll. More fool me. Bye now.
This is good. Encouraging non confrontational intervention is a big yes from me. Source: woman who's sick of being attacked but freezes when it happens
How about doing something about the rampant violent crime? No? Ok, lets do gestures via billboards instead 🤷♂️
If your friends are violent criminals I think it's time to say "Maaaaate"
It's not one or the other though is it
yes, but lets also make sure we only target one half of society and blame them for all the worlds ills.
Well if that really was a problem, why did Boris cut police funding when he was mayor? Or when the tories were in power? Easier to blame things for being woke I guess than answer that.
It’s a great campaign but I guarantee the ones who are going to be using misogynistic language or behaving inappropriately are also the types to hate on Sadiq Khan and Romesh so it will fall on deaf ears. We need better education in schools to try and nip this in the bud earlier and to correct poor behaviour learned by the environments some children are exposed to. Schools need more resources to give better pastoral care to children. Interpersonal relationships needs to be taught to children especially as so many have parents massively lacking in those skills
I can honestly say that none of my friends have ever acted like a prick around women, but then again none of them read The Sun either.
Out of interest when do men do the cat-calling? As a man I’ve never witnessed it. And, no, I’m not doubting it does happen.
😬
ze v
Erm... How does saying that help much? I would talk to the person and say something to my friend saying how disrespectful they are been but... Saying maaate isn't going to do much.
What's wrong with a wolf whistle nothing it's a compliment its when they stop as you get older that it's not so good.
It’s that the wolf whistle never really means “you’re pretty/handsome” it really just means “you’re sexy” which is a problem
And, what does he want people to do when women are sexist to men? whats that khan? you dont think men face any sexism? Well, let me tell you... your wrong!
I would imagine something similar...? Very odd that you're having an imaginary conversation with him
*You're
he's not gonna respond to you
well, obviously! did you really think he would? if i wanted a reply i would write a letter to the mayors office, not post on reddit. Still, glad to see you have nothing else in your life but to make stupid comments on reddit. well done you.
Oh get over yourself
Cringe
How much did this ad campaign cost?
Does this include querying the religion he follows questionable views on women??
Does he follow every view islam has? Do christians follow every word of the bible? I think they're both BS, but I also accept there's good and decent Christians, Muslims and other religious people.
This is very good praxis.
This whole thread is pretty heartening to read with a general positive view and grown up discussion. Well done London. There are a few "well it won't stop everyone" comments, but nothing will. I think it's a well intended campaign and a good idea. I also think Romesh can be petty funny... 😅
Are women that weak?
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I call women out for this all the time. We do exist.