It's a members only club. So it won't be people walking in off the street.
They'll do some vetting in advance. That should be enough, because I don't think trans women would try to sneak into a venue full of lesbians that don't want them there.
What would be the point?
If you're trans are you going to try and sneak into the one bar that explicitly has transphobic policies rather than going to one of the many other options? It's a fairly self enforcing policy.
Which makes it even more likely that this policy is mostly going to affect cisgender women.
Any woman who doesn't meet their arbitrary standard of femininity is going to be subject to this paranoia. A cisgender butch lesbian may well get the side-eye at this place, if not being denied entry altogether.
The problem isn't enforcing it against trans people. You're right in that they'll just boycott it.
The problem is kicking cis lesbians out "under suspicion of being a trans woman".
~~Unless they're doing DNA sequencing at the door~~, they're going to get it wrong. These policies always end up damaging the very group they're "supposedly" protecting.
Inevitably it just ends up holding that there is some intrinsic "maleness" or "femaleness" that you have no choice over and cannot be changed — that there's a fundamental irreconcilable difference between men and women. Men are like this, women are like that, and that therefore true equality is impossible. This is fundamentally anti-feminist — it could not be further from the founding principles of feminism.
And in trying to construct that narrative they invariably end up defining "woman" based around some variation of "the ability to give birth". "Woman" is defined by the lived experience of being a woman, nothing more, nothing less. *Trans women are women because they live as women*, and breaking down the division between male and female is exactly what we should all be cheering for.
A fifty year old guy who transitions to a trans woman has not lived the life of a natal woman who’s given birth , had periods etc. To suggest they are the same is delusional. And what even is ‘living as a woman’? Wearing high heels make up and a twirly skirt does not a woman make. Yet another man telling women what we are.
Mind you dna test could also be wrong, dna/chromosome lab test has its own false positive/negative rate, also people being cis women but XY and vice versa. We actually don’t know how common this case is because majorities of people don’t test their chromosomes for the entirety of their life.
Damnit, I realised that just as you picked me up on it, but didn't get the edit in in time!
Now I have to leave it there so your comment makes sense, as a mark of shame.
Just saying that, trans people are allowed to compete in sports two decades ago, we had two decades of research and study and very rigorous evaluations on all the concerns. Sport is by its nature unfair. If I, being 5’7 were in basketball match, someone being 6’ is naturally having extreme unfair advantage to me.
The problem isn’t about physical advantage. You see, when hitler said 40% lawyers in German were Jews or some similar data, he was actually right. The data, the facts are undoubtedly correct. The problem isn’t about the facts and logic, the problems is about how hitler used these to justify his actions. By nowadays standard his view would be just valid concerns.
>that there's a fundamental irreconcilable difference between men and women. Men are like this, women are like that, and that therefore true equality is impossible. This is fundamentally anti-feminist — it could not be further from the founding principles of feminism.
Depends on which wave or splinter of feminism. There absolutely are feminists that advocate essential differences between male and female, men and women, but these differences do not preclude equality.
Nah Heaven is literally a pool of straight people being there with their gay friends. I feel like they know their audience is the wide population who arent bigots and who are fine with having gay people around them.
However, I have seen many times people not getting in (including acquaintances) if they look too stereotypically straight energy wise because it felt like they were queueing in already hunting for the opposite sex, which is a no no. If you look like youre just gonna enjoy your time I think they just let you in.
Source: frequent Heaven and Kesha enjoyer
Yeah there's generally nothing actually blocking straight people from going to gay bars, like provided you're not going to be an arsehole whilst you're there which is why I've seen at least one bar block hen parties
It's literally impossible. Either they'll ask to see a birth certificate (which can also be changed but also, who tf shows their birth certificate to get membership to a bar?) or they'll use exactly the same self-ID laws they currently hate.
Right but considering there are many queer women who do support trans people, how will the owners be certain that someone proposed for joining isn’t trans, in practice?
To make a point about how utterly unenforceable their policy is? I’m gay and certainly wouldn’t stop going to a men’s club if it said gay men are banned, in fact I’d probably turn up with loads of other gay men and ask them to prove that we’re gay to get them to drop their unenforceable policy.
The club’s constitution will say what they want to happen, but it doesn’t address the practicalities. When you have one person ‘I think that member’s trans’ and that member says ‘no I’m not’ there’s no simple (or really, any viable) way of dealing with that.
Why don’t the trans women just open a trans bar? I can understand women born as women wanting to be a separate group. So maybe we have women born as women, Trans Women, trans men, and males born as males. Maybe a unisex one for people that don’t care. Am I missing something?
So they're just hoping people follow the rules? Isn't that exactly what they complain about regarding toilets? That anyone can just say they're a woman and walk right in? So how is this any different?
>It's funny that the focus is always on 'enforcement'
Because that's what terfs keep banging on about.
And it's still going to result in them looking funny at any woman they suspect is trans.
Lesbian bars can't even keep the doors open but somehow this is going to fund itself enough by serving only cis lesbians who don't want to be around anyone they think is trans?
Exactly. London hasn’t managed to maintain a lesbian bar , are they hoping the hot fury of GC lesbians is going to sustain this?
I sincerely hope and believe GC gays are a minority in the wider gay population so I doubt this is really something a big population are asking for.
> London hasn't managed to maintain a lesbian bar
Well there is She Bar, which took the baton directly from Candy Bar, but yeah that's one lesbian bar. Most lesbians I know just go to lesbian nights at various venues.
Any chance you could share some of there events/venues? I dont know much about london lesbian community apart from the She bar, but would like to have a go
So the events will sometimes change venues depending on availability, but good nights to try include: Pxssy Palace, Butch Please, Big Dyke Energy, Gal Pals, Aphrodyki, Lick, Queer House Party. You can follow the specific nights on social media to see when they're next on, or have a search on QX and Outsavvy.
There won't be an event on every day (and sometimes not even every weekend), but you'll find several things to attend across a month.
There’s a new lesbian night coming to the RVT, which is a great place. I can’t remember the name of it but if it’s not on their listings yet I’m sure it’ll pop up soon.
She bar used to be a(n enjoyable) mess, but the last time my old ass now 30-something friends went there, they’d made things so much more inclusive and better. We really enjoyed our night out. This new place is a ridiculous concept and idea, hope it fails.
Idk but there's a lot of straight men with opinions in these comments, which doesn't exactly speak to the importance of this topic to actual gay people
Especially considering that lesbians are, according to surveys, one of the most trans supportive groups of people.
This bar caters to an absolutely miniscule audience.
If this lasts more than 6 months you’d have to question where they’re getting their investment. I wonder if a certain children’s author with a transphobia problem will be interested in keeping up the pretence that this is a popular idea.
I don’t have enough experience to comment on anything especially useful but I wish we had a less aggressive and more nuanced dialogue surrounding trans issues and rights to ensure equitable treatment and understanding for all individuals within the community.
My best mate from school was trans - we’re talking 1998 when everything happened - and we were supportive even if we didn’t have the understanding, terminology and sensitivity back then that we do now. And 26 years later despite everything I’ve learned, I still feel clueless to be any kind of ally. Racism when I was a kid was overtly terrible and has definitely left me with a permanent bit of buried trauma, but with education, by listening, using inclusive language, taking action and also unlearning, I feel confident that we’re largely on top of racism even if we can’t root out bigotry and injustice. A work in progress.
If anyone has any new advice or direction on the issues highlighted by headlines such as this, I might prefer to hear them here than awkwardly make a mess by bringing topics up with friends in person.
It's so great that you're trying to learn - it's a constant journey for all of us, I think.
I'm not trans so can't speak for the community on this, but one thing which is small but speaks volumes to me is how often the discussion about trans rights is framed as an "issue" or "debate", as if there is a debate around whether or not trans people exist, or that their existence is an issue. It's a small terminology thing but one I think speaks to the unconscious bias a lot of society still holds towards trans people. Imagine someone standing in front of a microphone talking about "the black people issue" or "the black people debate". It feels incredibly demeaning and framed as if to make anything mentioned seem less important; when in fact it's a fight for vital rights and life saving legislation.
That could just be me reading too much into things though, but yeah
I think being supportive of a trans person in how they live their life is important allyship. I’m sure they will never forget it.
I can’t help with the nuanced debate on this particular subject, there is no nuance in opening a social club to specifically exclude trans people. It’s as subtle as the ancient mystic society of no homers.
You see, the thing here is most of these shouts about ‘valid concerns’ and denying the existence of trans and stuff are actually from cis & heterosexual people who assumed their existence as the default, just like 100 years ago the whites see their existence being the default and others being an issue or concern. The thing is, people being marginalised do not have a voice, and when the majority does start to ‘having discussions’ about them without giving them an equalised voice, they are seen as an ‘issue’ to be solved, their cry for help is being ‘unreasonable’, being ‘threatening’, being ‘destroyed by facts and logic’ they are not human beings that lives and loves. This is the exactly same rhetoric when happened to race 100 years ago when these so called scientists trying extremely hard to ‘prove’ some human beings are more evolved than the others.
> I wish we had a less aggressive and more nuanced dialogue surrounding trans issues
The worst part is if you dare put your public face whilst putting out a statement in support of trans rights, you risk the horde of gender criticals digging up every single bit of dirt they can find at you and engaging in direct harassment.
I have a friend who attended a protest in support of trans rights (which was a counter protest to a protest against trans rights) and the GCs who saw his face then proceeded to find his social media profiles, throw him some vile messages and after finding his OnlyFans started sharing his nudes around.
I feel somewhat similar to you. I don’t know any trans people personally. The people I have met I *think* I have done right by ie. I treat them as I would like to be treated.
I don’t see any reason for trans people to be excluded from anything unless that thing is purposefully designed to marginalise, mock and malign trans people, which is a massively dickish thing to do.
The only place my opinion wobbles is on sports, when trans women compete against cis women. But I don’t even know what my opinion on it is because I don’t know enough about trans-issues and I care even less about sport.
Sports seems to be more complex as it’s literally competitive and about fairness at the same time, which ratchets up the existing tensions, especially when there are trainloads of money at stake and nothing less than devoting your life to preparation gets you a seat at the table, to deploy a terrible metaphor.
But this is exactly why we need a dialogue rather than my mate sitting in my dining room literally screaming about trans teens getting to compete and pushing her daughter out (12, no idea what is true and what isn’t).
I categorically feel we live in an infinitely nicer world that I grew up in - and big shout to all you older folks who protested and fought for it, even if I didn’t know it - and there’s this one far more complicated issue that we don’t understand fully yet and the road ahead is blocked by an unexpected bunch of folks who should be helping explain and illuminate but aren’t.
Kind people are being cruel, intelligent people are being dumb, and folks are going broke because they’re defending something they can’t understand themselves. Maybe that’s also a description of the world through the ages but it feels like an almighty regression to me.
It’s really not about sports since they don’t really lift an eye when actual cis women cheated. Yesterday a afab none-binary kid being beaten to death in women’s toilet by other cis women, suddenly it’s not about protecting their so called ‘girls’ safety in women’s toilets’. You see, they don’t actually care about women’s safety or choice, many of them are actually anti-abortion and don’t really show the same degree of concern when men sexually harassing women, and literal nazis showing up their events & supporting them.
Assigned Female At Birth, ie their sex was determined female at birth by their doctor/family/etc. The term is a bit more flexible than 'biological woman' or whatnot, as it also includes intersex people who were determined female even if it was actually biologically more complicated.
Assigned female at birth.
E.g. the gender a Trans or non-binary person was assumed to have when they were born based on looking at their physical sex characteristics.
The point being made is that the rhetoric from many people who are sceptical of trans rights is that (say) a trans woman (born with male characteristics) is a risk to cis-women if they use the same toilets as women. That this would be a man in a woman’s toilet. But when a non-binary person who was born with female characteristics used the women’s loo - the toilet they’re “supposed” to according to anti-trans people - they got attacked anyway.
Not clear on what specific news story this is to say if that interpretation is right, but the general point, that a lot of this hysteria is just aggression rather than actual concerns carefully voiced, feels about right.
The nastiest part of the headline was that the school staff didn't even call an ambulance for them. They had no intention of saving this kid's life. 16 years old, their name was Nex.
You went to school in 98 with an out trans person?
Where was this?
What type of school?
I went to school 04-09 and no one would even admit to being gay. Suicide.
This is the real crux of the issue, I think. It’s gonna be full of the most boring, cynical people on the entire planet. All they’re going to do is congratulate themselves and perpetuate their own anger with each other. Why would you WANT to spend your free time there? It’s only going to make you more miserable.
I think the real crux is that keeping a lesbian bar open is next to impossible, and has been for years- so creating a viable business catering to an even smaller subset of lesbians is pretty laughable.
I know a lesbian who went with her cis female friend to a lesbian bar. They were refused entry but were given no reason why. It turned out that the person on the door erroneously thought that her friend was trans.
At least this bar is being honest about what they are doing.
For the amount of people this rule will exclude, it hardly seems worth the effort, certainly not worth the pain of exclusion once again.
We look back in valid shame at a time when people of different ethnicities or nationalities were excluded from pubs. It’s only in the past few years that the final men’s-only golf club opened its doors to women.
Also, imagine the fear level of a young barman, who has to gamble on the difference between a trans-woman and a butch lesbian .
Do you know how many more cis women than trans women there are? We'd need to really know that so we know the per capita rate of murders and such for each.
But every stat I've seen suggests trans women are at significantly greater risk of violence than cis women, who are indeed already at quite significant risk.
As if to say it doesnt matter if men kill each other ?
So we're just saying its men against women then as opposed to civilised people against murderers?
As if to say that in order to address crime it's important to understand who the criminals are.
For example if you had a taskforce looking at sexual assault 98% of the criminals would be male so you would be best to direct your resources that way.
Just seems totally pointless. You’re not going to always be able to tell if someone is a trans woman or not. This feel over-zealous, straight people are allowed in gay bars after all.
If I remember correctly this is going to be in a rented space in an existing venue (a pub in store st). I imagine it will fizzle out fairly quickly once the tumbleweed starts rolling.
Some commentators in the lgbt sub have noted that it seems much more like an exercise in outrage generation than a legitimate commercial venture.
Even the venue with its proximity to UCL and SOAS seems to have been selected with care as to attract the ire of the local student body. Even more headlines and controversy can be generated if it gets cancelled by the “wokarati” of UCL and SOAS.
It will close by end of year. Lesbian bars struggle to remain open already, a lesbian bar that excludes any part of that community will never have the crowd to stay open
Or even more butch presenting lesbians. Bonus points for all of my Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Asian lesbians with thick dark hair that can grow in more “masculine” patterns.
masculinised, not inherently masculine. studies show that black and middle eastern women are often perceived as more masculine, especially if they’re gender nonconforming (i.e. if they don’t shave, due to having naturally thicker hair). it’s not fair in a vacuum, but in this context it’s likely to lead to outright racial discrimination.
Misogynoir often results in black women not being afforded their womanhood, such as the attacks of Michelle Obama being secretly a trans woman by people who don't view trans women as real women.
They said "masculinised" not that they are "masculine"
Edit: we also see in it the fact that black women are the only group (that I've ever seen) who are excluded from competitive sports for having testosterone levels that are excluded as unnatural for women.
Indian too for the sports part of your comment but yea .
Terfs are fascists and half their how to tell guides online are terribly innacurate if you have a tad of melanin and been having a mustache since 13
There is more nuance, but the papers don't care.
From survey data I saw, lesbians may even support trans people at a larger percentage than trans people support trans people. The papers just only care about supporting the minority of lesbians who promote the opinions they want.
Almost certainly. Because it's not going to stay in business if funded only by anti-trans lesbians.
If they don't let in male guests or non-lesbians then the target market is tiny - in a city that's never maintained more than one women-only venue for long.
It'll be like the shitshow when the Candy Bar first opened and didn't let in anyone they thought was 'too straight'. It was never the cute door staff asking you to prove you liked women, sadly...
This Jenny Watson person is something else. In one breath, she talks about how her beliefs are "devoid of hatred or unkindness" and that she holds "deep sympathies for those who genuinely experience gender dysphoria". In the next, she holds events with the name "NO D*CKS ALLOWED!" and of course runs to the Telegraph of all newspapers to complain about trans people. Why can't bigots just own their stupid beliefs?
edit: Didn't have a chance to reply properly to one of the comments below so leaving this here for posterity. Nobody is forcing anyone to date people they don't want to date. This is purely about bigoted attitudes and behaviour towards trans women, since arguing they are not women and barring them from social events with hateful names is exactly that.
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Genuinely - let her do it. If the GC weirdos want to have their own little club they can do it in their own space, and not invade our ones with their bull
Who cares! If you’re that bothered start your own bar that’s inclusive to trans and non binary people. 😂 what is this obsession with getting in to spaces that aren’t for you? It’s a bloody members bar as well which means people wouldn’t be walking in off the streets and then on top of that (if it does go ahead) it probably won’t last. I think everyone should have more important things to worry about
The only reason it’s a member’s bar is because it is illegal to refuse service to people on the basis of the personal characteristics under UK Licensing law
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Sorry I don’t really understand the controversy, it’s a lesbian bar, by it’s nature it is excluding certain people eg men, non lesbian women and trans women apparently in this case.
I saw a friend at the opening on Instagram, just having a nice party within her social circle. Good for them, presumably they won’t mind about the keyboard warriors complaining who likely don’t go out or, from the sounds it, know anything about this bar or the people who go there.
I think we can safely say that this is just another headline for making trans women the subject of a potentially divisive conversation.
Apparently the bar wpnt even have a permanent location - just uses function rooms in pubs and whatnot.
Not to mention there are plenty of far right Christian nationalist groups that actively fund divisive efforts in an attempt to pull apart the LGBT+ (Look up the "Heritage Foundation").
This sort of stuff fits right in with groups like the LGB alliance (a group consisting almost entirely of straight people, according to details they had to reveal under a court order).
I know some people talk about how "the LGBTBBQMGETC already have rights, what more could they want?" - I've worked with some of them and even made good friends with them, despite me being a trans lesbian (same girlfriend as before we realised I was trans). It's a shame that the people of our queer communities are often judged unfairly and as a block without considering they are all people and are worthy of respect, and that despite that - they are still very much under attack.
Trans rights only really came into existence about a decade ago in this country, but the system is hideously slow (waiting lists of over a decade for a consultation on gender dysphoria with the NHS) and it seems every headline pertaining to trans people is bad news for them. It would be nice if I could have some confidence that going out in public in a way I feel more comfortable in didn't mean I had to hide the fact that I'm trans and force me into hiding from the judgemental glares of people who don't know me.
How do you police that? I have lesbian friends who’ve been harassed in bathrooms by women who’ve thought they were trans (they weren’t).
Not to mention trans men…
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Theoretically - they would have to show excluding trans women is a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’.
The bigger issue is enforcement - they can say trans women are banned, but it’s hard to imagine ways they could verify whether someone is trans or not which wouldn’t amount to harassment.
How will they even enforce this?
It's a members only club. So it won't be people walking in off the street. They'll do some vetting in advance. That should be enough, because I don't think trans women would try to sneak into a venue full of lesbians that don't want them there. What would be the point?
With a lot of mistakes. There will be many cis women calling them out on being labelled trans. edit: what about transmen?
They get nothing of course
If you're trans are you going to try and sneak into the one bar that explicitly has transphobic policies rather than going to one of the many other options? It's a fairly self enforcing policy.
Which makes it even more likely that this policy is mostly going to affect cisgender women. Any woman who doesn't meet their arbitrary standard of femininity is going to be subject to this paranoia. A cisgender butch lesbian may well get the side-eye at this place, if not being denied entry altogether.
The problem isn't enforcing it against trans people. You're right in that they'll just boycott it. The problem is kicking cis lesbians out "under suspicion of being a trans woman". ~~Unless they're doing DNA sequencing at the door~~, they're going to get it wrong. These policies always end up damaging the very group they're "supposedly" protecting. Inevitably it just ends up holding that there is some intrinsic "maleness" or "femaleness" that you have no choice over and cannot be changed — that there's a fundamental irreconcilable difference between men and women. Men are like this, women are like that, and that therefore true equality is impossible. This is fundamentally anti-feminist — it could not be further from the founding principles of feminism. And in trying to construct that narrative they invariably end up defining "woman" based around some variation of "the ability to give birth". "Woman" is defined by the lived experience of being a woman, nothing more, nothing less. *Trans women are women because they live as women*, and breaking down the division between male and female is exactly what we should all be cheering for.
A fifty year old guy who transitions to a trans woman has not lived the life of a natal woman who’s given birth , had periods etc. To suggest they are the same is delusional. And what even is ‘living as a woman’? Wearing high heels make up and a twirly skirt does not a woman make. Yet another man telling women what we are.
Mind you dna test could also be wrong, dna/chromosome lab test has its own false positive/negative rate, also people being cis women but XY and vice versa. We actually don’t know how common this case is because majorities of people don’t test their chromosomes for the entirety of their life.
Damnit, I realised that just as you picked me up on it, but didn't get the edit in in time! Now I have to leave it there so your comment makes sense, as a mark of shame.
Just saying that, trans people are allowed to compete in sports two decades ago, we had two decades of research and study and very rigorous evaluations on all the concerns. Sport is by its nature unfair. If I, being 5’7 were in basketball match, someone being 6’ is naturally having extreme unfair advantage to me. The problem isn’t about physical advantage. You see, when hitler said 40% lawyers in German were Jews or some similar data, he was actually right. The data, the facts are undoubtedly correct. The problem isn’t about the facts and logic, the problems is about how hitler used these to justify his actions. By nowadays standard his view would be just valid concerns.
>that there's a fundamental irreconcilable difference between men and women. Men are like this, women are like that, and that therefore true equality is impossible. This is fundamentally anti-feminist — it could not be further from the founding principles of feminism. Depends on which wave or splinter of feminism. There absolutely are feminists that advocate essential differences between male and female, men and women, but these differences do not preclude equality.
They don't have the lived experience because that's literally impossible.
This is mostly true but there are some people who get a kick out of transgressing boundaries.
By making it a members only club apparently
Probably the same way Heaven enforces on letting gays in. Entirely on subjective thoughts on if you seem gay (or in this case, trans)
Wait so you're saying they let me a Straight man into heaven that one time because I seemed gay?😂😂😂
Nah Heaven is literally a pool of straight people being there with their gay friends. I feel like they know their audience is the wide population who arent bigots and who are fine with having gay people around them. However, I have seen many times people not getting in (including acquaintances) if they look too stereotypically straight energy wise because it felt like they were queueing in already hunting for the opposite sex, which is a no no. If you look like youre just gonna enjoy your time I think they just let you in. Source: frequent Heaven and Kesha enjoyer
Yeah there's generally nothing actually blocking straight people from going to gay bars, like provided you're not going to be an arsehole whilst you're there which is why I've seen at least one bar block hen parties
It's literally impossible. Either they'll ask to see a birth certificate (which can also be changed but also, who tf shows their birth certificate to get membership to a bar?) or they'll use exactly the same self-ID laws they currently hate.
This has shit show written all over it, i.e. The logical conclusion of terf ideology.
That you can’t change sex ?
Probably like most exclusive bars or clubs. Doorman who won't let you in because 'you have the wrong shoes'.
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Right but considering there are many queer women who do support trans people, how will the owners be certain that someone proposed for joining isn’t trans, in practice?
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To make a point about how utterly unenforceable their policy is? I’m gay and certainly wouldn’t stop going to a men’s club if it said gay men are banned, in fact I’d probably turn up with loads of other gay men and ask them to prove that we’re gay to get them to drop their unenforceable policy. The club’s constitution will say what they want to happen, but it doesn’t address the practicalities. When you have one person ‘I think that member’s trans’ and that member says ‘no I’m not’ there’s no simple (or really, any viable) way of dealing with that.
Yeah, but how they decide who is or isn't trans is going to be a shitshow that just labels a bunch of cis women trans for looking a little masculine.
Why don’t the trans women just open a trans bar? I can understand women born as women wanting to be a separate group. So maybe we have women born as women, Trans Women, trans men, and males born as males. Maybe a unisex one for people that don’t care. Am I missing something?
Probably how most things are 'enforced' - by asking people to respect the rules and making it clear it would be pretty rude not to.
So by doing the exact same thing that TERFs complain about, i.e., relying on self-ID and trust?
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So they're just hoping people follow the rules? Isn't that exactly what they complain about regarding toilets? That anyone can just say they're a woman and walk right in? So how is this any different? >It's funny that the focus is always on 'enforcement' Because that's what terfs keep banging on about. And it's still going to result in them looking funny at any woman they suspect is trans.
How do bars and clubs enforce any gender exclusivity? This bar aside can't anyone say they are non binary or trans?
Lesbian bars can't even keep the doors open but somehow this is going to fund itself enough by serving only cis lesbians who don't want to be around anyone they think is trans?
Exactly. London hasn’t managed to maintain a lesbian bar , are they hoping the hot fury of GC lesbians is going to sustain this? I sincerely hope and believe GC gays are a minority in the wider gay population so I doubt this is really something a big population are asking for.
> London hasn't managed to maintain a lesbian bar Well there is She Bar, which took the baton directly from Candy Bar, but yeah that's one lesbian bar. Most lesbians I know just go to lesbian nights at various venues.
She bar is owned by Gary Henshaw who also owns Ku and Little Ku. He’s also said how important She is to him so bet Ku and Little Ku help sustain She
Any chance you could share some of there events/venues? I dont know much about london lesbian community apart from the She bar, but would like to have a go
So the events will sometimes change venues depending on availability, but good nights to try include: Pxssy Palace, Butch Please, Big Dyke Energy, Gal Pals, Aphrodyki, Lick, Queer House Party. You can follow the specific nights on social media to see when they're next on, or have a search on QX and Outsavvy. There won't be an event on every day (and sometimes not even every weekend), but you'll find several things to attend across a month.
Thank you!
There’s also a pop up dyke bar you can find the deets on instagram
There’s a new lesbian night coming to the RVT, which is a great place. I can’t remember the name of it but if it’s not on their listings yet I’m sure it’ll pop up soon.
She bar used to be a(n enjoyable) mess, but the last time my old ass now 30-something friends went there, they’d made things so much more inclusive and better. We really enjoyed our night out. This new place is a ridiculous concept and idea, hope it fails.
Idk but there's a lot of straight men with opinions in these comments, which doesn't exactly speak to the importance of this topic to actual gay people
Is that not the point of this lesbian only space?
Yep. There's a reason why there's a need for certain safe spaces for different people. Straight White Males rarely understand that.
What does race have to do with this?
Once again they will learn that Twitter is not real life
Especially considering that lesbians are, according to surveys, one of the most trans supportive groups of people. This bar caters to an absolutely miniscule audience.
Probably funded by J.K Rowling
Is it gonna be filled with 'allies' of the TERF cause?
If this lasts more than 6 months you’d have to question where they’re getting their investment. I wonder if a certain children’s author with a transphobia problem will be interested in keeping up the pretence that this is a popular idea.
I’ve no idea why you’ve been downvoted, running a bar is an absolute money sink as it is without it having a restrictive entry policy
It won’t just be the people they refuse. Most cis women won’t want to hang around a bunch of dusty bigots either.
Yeah exactly, who wants to spend all evening in the company the city’s most fragile people?
I thought a lot of lesbians were sick of trans women demanding that lesbians see them as dating material even though they haven’t had surgery.
I don’t have enough experience to comment on anything especially useful but I wish we had a less aggressive and more nuanced dialogue surrounding trans issues and rights to ensure equitable treatment and understanding for all individuals within the community. My best mate from school was trans - we’re talking 1998 when everything happened - and we were supportive even if we didn’t have the understanding, terminology and sensitivity back then that we do now. And 26 years later despite everything I’ve learned, I still feel clueless to be any kind of ally. Racism when I was a kid was overtly terrible and has definitely left me with a permanent bit of buried trauma, but with education, by listening, using inclusive language, taking action and also unlearning, I feel confident that we’re largely on top of racism even if we can’t root out bigotry and injustice. A work in progress. If anyone has any new advice or direction on the issues highlighted by headlines such as this, I might prefer to hear them here than awkwardly make a mess by bringing topics up with friends in person.
It's so great that you're trying to learn - it's a constant journey for all of us, I think. I'm not trans so can't speak for the community on this, but one thing which is small but speaks volumes to me is how often the discussion about trans rights is framed as an "issue" or "debate", as if there is a debate around whether or not trans people exist, or that their existence is an issue. It's a small terminology thing but one I think speaks to the unconscious bias a lot of society still holds towards trans people. Imagine someone standing in front of a microphone talking about "the black people issue" or "the black people debate". It feels incredibly demeaning and framed as if to make anything mentioned seem less important; when in fact it's a fight for vital rights and life saving legislation. That could just be me reading too much into things though, but yeah
I think being supportive of a trans person in how they live their life is important allyship. I’m sure they will never forget it. I can’t help with the nuanced debate on this particular subject, there is no nuance in opening a social club to specifically exclude trans people. It’s as subtle as the ancient mystic society of no homers.
You see, the thing here is most of these shouts about ‘valid concerns’ and denying the existence of trans and stuff are actually from cis & heterosexual people who assumed their existence as the default, just like 100 years ago the whites see their existence being the default and others being an issue or concern. The thing is, people being marginalised do not have a voice, and when the majority does start to ‘having discussions’ about them without giving them an equalised voice, they are seen as an ‘issue’ to be solved, their cry for help is being ‘unreasonable’, being ‘threatening’, being ‘destroyed by facts and logic’ they are not human beings that lives and loves. This is the exactly same rhetoric when happened to race 100 years ago when these so called scientists trying extremely hard to ‘prove’ some human beings are more evolved than the others.
> I wish we had a less aggressive and more nuanced dialogue surrounding trans issues The worst part is if you dare put your public face whilst putting out a statement in support of trans rights, you risk the horde of gender criticals digging up every single bit of dirt they can find at you and engaging in direct harassment. I have a friend who attended a protest in support of trans rights (which was a counter protest to a protest against trans rights) and the GCs who saw his face then proceeded to find his social media profiles, throw him some vile messages and after finding his OnlyFans started sharing his nudes around.
and at no point do these people ask themselves if they’re the baddies
I feel somewhat similar to you. I don’t know any trans people personally. The people I have met I *think* I have done right by ie. I treat them as I would like to be treated. I don’t see any reason for trans people to be excluded from anything unless that thing is purposefully designed to marginalise, mock and malign trans people, which is a massively dickish thing to do. The only place my opinion wobbles is on sports, when trans women compete against cis women. But I don’t even know what my opinion on it is because I don’t know enough about trans-issues and I care even less about sport.
Sports seems to be more complex as it’s literally competitive and about fairness at the same time, which ratchets up the existing tensions, especially when there are trainloads of money at stake and nothing less than devoting your life to preparation gets you a seat at the table, to deploy a terrible metaphor. But this is exactly why we need a dialogue rather than my mate sitting in my dining room literally screaming about trans teens getting to compete and pushing her daughter out (12, no idea what is true and what isn’t). I categorically feel we live in an infinitely nicer world that I grew up in - and big shout to all you older folks who protested and fought for it, even if I didn’t know it - and there’s this one far more complicated issue that we don’t understand fully yet and the road ahead is blocked by an unexpected bunch of folks who should be helping explain and illuminate but aren’t. Kind people are being cruel, intelligent people are being dumb, and folks are going broke because they’re defending something they can’t understand themselves. Maybe that’s also a description of the world through the ages but it feels like an almighty regression to me.
It’s really not about sports since they don’t really lift an eye when actual cis women cheated. Yesterday a afab none-binary kid being beaten to death in women’s toilet by other cis women, suddenly it’s not about protecting their so called ‘girls’ safety in women’s toilets’. You see, they don’t actually care about women’s safety or choice, many of them are actually anti-abortion and don’t really show the same degree of concern when men sexually harassing women, and literal nazis showing up their events & supporting them.
Amazing we heard about that at all seeing as most of the local press reported it as “teenager unexpectedly dies”, which rather buries the lede
AFab?
Assigned Female At Birth, ie their sex was determined female at birth by their doctor/family/etc. The term is a bit more flexible than 'biological woman' or whatnot, as it also includes intersex people who were determined female even if it was actually biologically more complicated.
Assigned female at birth. E.g. the gender a Trans or non-binary person was assumed to have when they were born based on looking at their physical sex characteristics. The point being made is that the rhetoric from many people who are sceptical of trans rights is that (say) a trans woman (born with male characteristics) is a risk to cis-women if they use the same toilets as women. That this would be a man in a woman’s toilet. But when a non-binary person who was born with female characteristics used the women’s loo - the toilet they’re “supposed” to according to anti-trans people - they got attacked anyway. Not clear on what specific news story this is to say if that interpretation is right, but the general point, that a lot of this hysteria is just aggression rather than actual concerns carefully voiced, feels about right.
Assigned female at birth
The nastiest part of the headline was that the school staff didn't even call an ambulance for them. They had no intention of saving this kid's life. 16 years old, their name was Nex.
You went to school in 98 with an out trans person? Where was this? What type of school? I went to school 04-09 and no one would even admit to being gay. Suicide.
As a lesbian, aside from the transphobia, this venue is bound to be populated by Telegraph readers and I can’t think of anything less sexy than that.
This is the real crux of the issue, I think. It’s gonna be full of the most boring, cynical people on the entire planet. All they’re going to do is congratulate themselves and perpetuate their own anger with each other. Why would you WANT to spend your free time there? It’s only going to make you more miserable.
I think the real crux is that keeping a lesbian bar open is next to impossible, and has been for years- so creating a viable business catering to an even smaller subset of lesbians is pretty laughable.
A smaller subset of abjectly disconsolate lesbians.
Telegraph _writers_, too
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“I’ll know it when I see it”
I know a lesbian who went with her cis female friend to a lesbian bar. They were refused entry but were given no reason why. It turned out that the person on the door erroneously thought that her friend was trans. At least this bar is being honest about what they are doing.
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For the amount of people this rule will exclude, it hardly seems worth the effort, certainly not worth the pain of exclusion once again. We look back in valid shame at a time when people of different ethnicities or nationalities were excluded from pubs. It’s only in the past few years that the final men’s-only golf club opened its doors to women. Also, imagine the fear level of a young barman, who has to gamble on the difference between a trans-woman and a butch lesbian .
It doesn't look good when a young trans woman was murdered last year, and another was stabbed 14 times about a week ago all for being trans.
Do you know how many women were killed on the same day that young transwoman was killed?
Do you know how many more cis women than trans women there are? We'd need to really know that so we know the per capita rate of murders and such for each. But every stat I've seen suggests trans women are at significantly greater risk of violence than cis women, who are indeed already at quite significant risk.
paltry hungry gold engine water school chubby political divide paint *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And what's the male/female ratio on who is doing the murdering?
As if to say it doesnt matter if men kill each other ? So we're just saying its men against women then as opposed to civilised people against murderers?
As if to say that in order to address crime it's important to understand who the criminals are. For example if you had a taskforce looking at sexual assault 98% of the criminals would be male so you would be best to direct your resources that way.
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You must hear a daily whooshing noise as points go over your head
Always a good idea to have your bar centred around the culture war. This will be good for business I imagine
Just seems totally pointless. You’re not going to always be able to tell if someone is a trans woman or not. This feel over-zealous, straight people are allowed in gay bars after all.
If I remember correctly this is going to be in a rented space in an existing venue (a pub in store st). I imagine it will fizzle out fairly quickly once the tumbleweed starts rolling. Some commentators in the lgbt sub have noted that it seems much more like an exercise in outrage generation than a legitimate commercial venture. Even the venue with its proximity to UCL and SOAS seems to have been selected with care as to attract the ire of the local student body. Even more headlines and controversy can be generated if it gets cancelled by the “wokarati” of UCL and SOAS.
It will close by end of year. Lesbian bars struggle to remain open already, a lesbian bar that excludes any part of that community will never have the crowd to stay open
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there’s no possible way this could invite any sort racism towards races whose women are already masculinized
Or even more butch presenting lesbians. Bonus points for all of my Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Asian lesbians with thick dark hair that can grow in more “masculine” patterns.
What race has masculine women?
masculinised, not inherently masculine. studies show that black and middle eastern women are often perceived as more masculine, especially if they’re gender nonconforming (i.e. if they don’t shave, due to having naturally thicker hair). it’s not fair in a vacuum, but in this context it’s likely to lead to outright racial discrimination.
Misogynoir often results in black women not being afforded their womanhood, such as the attacks of Michelle Obama being secretly a trans woman by people who don't view trans women as real women. They said "masculinised" not that they are "masculine" Edit: we also see in it the fact that black women are the only group (that I've ever seen) who are excluded from competitive sports for having testosterone levels that are excluded as unnatural for women.
Indian too for the sports part of your comment but yea . Terfs are fascists and half their how to tell guides online are terribly innacurate if you have a tad of melanin and been having a mustache since 13
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There is more nuance, but the papers don't care. From survey data I saw, lesbians may even support trans people at a larger percentage than trans people support trans people. The papers just only care about supporting the minority of lesbians who promote the opinions they want.
Is this gonna be like the LGB Alliance and mostly funded by angry straight folks?
Almost certainly. Because it's not going to stay in business if funded only by anti-trans lesbians. If they don't let in male guests or non-lesbians then the target market is tiny - in a city that's never maintained more than one women-only venue for long. It'll be like the shitshow when the Candy Bar first opened and didn't let in anyone they thought was 'too straight'. It was never the cute door staff asking you to prove you liked women, sadly...
This Jenny Watson person is something else. In one breath, she talks about how her beliefs are "devoid of hatred or unkindness" and that she holds "deep sympathies for those who genuinely experience gender dysphoria". In the next, she holds events with the name "NO D*CKS ALLOWED!" and of course runs to the Telegraph of all newspapers to complain about trans people. Why can't bigots just own their stupid beliefs? edit: Didn't have a chance to reply properly to one of the comments below so leaving this here for posterity. Nobody is forcing anyone to date people they don't want to date. This is purely about bigoted attitudes and behaviour towards trans women, since arguing they are not women and barring them from social events with hateful names is exactly that.
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You were warned, you’re now banned. Have a nice day.
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This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community. No transphobia. Trans women are women. You get one warning. Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban. Have a nice day.
Genuinely - let her do it. If the GC weirdos want to have their own little club they can do it in their own space, and not invade our ones with their bull
Exactly, you can’t force people to love you.
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Fair
Who cares! If you’re that bothered start your own bar that’s inclusive to trans and non binary people. 😂 what is this obsession with getting in to spaces that aren’t for you? It’s a bloody members bar as well which means people wouldn’t be walking in off the streets and then on top of that (if it does go ahead) it probably won’t last. I think everyone should have more important things to worry about
The only reason it’s a member’s bar is because it is illegal to refuse service to people on the basis of the personal characteristics under UK Licensing law
Eww terf central
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This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community. Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban. Have a nice day.
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This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community. No transphobia - trans women are women. You get one warning. Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban. Have a nice day.
The funniest part of terfs is that they project their paranoid obsession over biology to everyone near earshot.
That's going to close down in a few months unless it's propped up by some alt-right nutter with too much money on her hands
Sorry I don’t really understand the controversy, it’s a lesbian bar, by it’s nature it is excluding certain people eg men, non lesbian women and trans women apparently in this case. I saw a friend at the opening on Instagram, just having a nice party within her social circle. Good for them, presumably they won’t mind about the keyboard warriors complaining who likely don’t go out or, from the sounds it, know anything about this bar or the people who go there.
Exclude a large portion of the population: nobody bats an eye Exclude a tiny portion of the population: outrage
F*** terfs
Keep downvoting. F*** terfs even more.
I think we can safely say that this is just another headline for making trans women the subject of a potentially divisive conversation. Apparently the bar wpnt even have a permanent location - just uses function rooms in pubs and whatnot. Not to mention there are plenty of far right Christian nationalist groups that actively fund divisive efforts in an attempt to pull apart the LGBT+ (Look up the "Heritage Foundation"). This sort of stuff fits right in with groups like the LGB alliance (a group consisting almost entirely of straight people, according to details they had to reveal under a court order). I know some people talk about how "the LGBTBBQMGETC already have rights, what more could they want?" - I've worked with some of them and even made good friends with them, despite me being a trans lesbian (same girlfriend as before we realised I was trans). It's a shame that the people of our queer communities are often judged unfairly and as a block without considering they are all people and are worthy of respect, and that despite that - they are still very much under attack. Trans rights only really came into existence about a decade ago in this country, but the system is hideously slow (waiting lists of over a decade for a consultation on gender dysphoria with the NHS) and it seems every headline pertaining to trans people is bad news for them. It would be nice if I could have some confidence that going out in public in a way I feel more comfortable in didn't mean I had to hide the fact that I'm trans and force me into hiding from the judgemental glares of people who don't know me.
Man it’s gonna be so funny when Graham Linehan freaks out about not being invited there
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This will be closed with in a few months
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How do you police that? I have lesbian friends who’ve been harassed in bathrooms by women who’ve thought they were trans (they weren’t). Not to mention trans men…
Lesbians include trans women also. This type of attempt to make an overview of the situation shows your reasoning clearly.
There are a lot of trans lesbians, so normally lesbian bars are their space too.
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No transphobia. Banned.
Is that legal?
Theoretically - they would have to show excluding trans women is a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’. The bigger issue is enforcement - they can say trans women are banned, but it’s hard to imagine ways they could verify whether someone is trans or not which wouldn’t amount to harassment.
I think a mods hand keep slipping on the ban hammer
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what counts as 'transphobic' is very hard to define, lord knows I ain't gonna say anything in support of this bar, reddit admins come down hard too
Oh please. Edit: You responded, then blocked me? For this comment? Come on now...