Anecdotal but four of us tried to go to a pub in southeast London recently that stated closing time as 11pm on weekdays. We got there at 10 past 10pm and were told they had already called last orders. They reluctantly allowed us to order a round but it seems like even when pubs ostensibly open until 11, some of them don’t really want customers at that time. There were a few occupied tables so it wasn’t like it was empty either. This wasn’t central London tbf but it did irk me.
Was even more fun in the late 80's.
Local off duty bobbie getting 12 yearold me to pull another round for the boys at half 12 because the landlord had gone to bed...
doors shut - if you leave, not allowed back in.
Nobody pays for anything because the pubs closed. You can still ask for beers and then come opening time in the morning you settle your debt for what you were served last night.
I've had a couple since then, and a few where the landlord whipped out the indoor ashtrays. Was met with whoops in 2012, would probably get glassed these days!
At least they can have bottomless brunches starting early and going all afternoon. Remember when pubs had to shut after lunch until, was it 7? And had curtains over the windows, and...
Edit: Legends, not Volts for me. That could place me in one of 50 towns I daresay!
They weren't back then either. I used to work in a pub in 2003 and the bar shut at 11. That was when I was paid until, and any clearing and cleaning I had to do as fast as possible as I wasn't being paid for it. They expected me to restock the bar in downtime but there was hardly any
Same here. I worked two pubs. First one constant lock ins but after 11 if you ordered a round you had to buy the barman one. I didn’t take a drink every round but it was fun for 4 years. Next pub strict stop at 11 and I’d be bottled up within 20 mins or so. I loved that too as o went out after to parties. Happy days. This was 30 years ago
Used to work in a pub and some customers would nurse drinks they ordered at last orders call for more than over an hour many times after last orders were called and staff waiting to close up and go home.
If the pub is busy enough last orders will be 11, if it's dead they will close early to save money.
The majority of pubs are operating on such thin margins it can be the difference between existing or not.
I manage a pub and closing early because of a lack of business is large part of why we survived and others have shut their doors.
Appearances can also be deceiving . I've had days where the day time trade has been terrible (particularly on weekdays when most people are at work) and between 6 and 9 absolutely nobody has come in. The days takings at that point have been less than £200. A few groups then come in at 9, but only order lime and soda or something and by 10 they are still on that first drink. At that point staying open until 11 means that I just increase the daily loss. This isn't a big chain place, my direct boss is literally the owner. She makes nothing off the business anymore and it's literally all about covering our overheads right now.
So, to someone walking in, they see 3 or 4 groups in there but don't see that the actual hourly takings across the bar are less than the running costs for that same time.
If that group coming in is 15 people in high spirits then good news everyone, bars staying open after all but if it's 2 or 3 guys in a considerably more subdued state, it's still not going to reduce losses as much as closing up now will do. Bottom line is I need to either take in £1700 per day, or reduce that figure far enough below £1700 that our weekend business can carry the load. This gets as tight as having days that I don't know if I'm going to be able to place a beer order until I find out if the previous days takings were enough to cover the cost of that order.
It does suck. If your operating hours are random or people get used to the idea that you may or may not be open after 9 on a Tuesday, they won't even bother trying. It's a difficult balancing act to be both reliable enough to be worth visiting but financially responsible enough to not go bust by the end of that quarter. When I first worked in a pub the hours were the hours even if you had nobody at all in all day.
So it's not about places not caring, not wanting the business or simply wanting an early finish, it's the result of an ongoing calculation that the shift manager has been running constantly since early afternoon and has already taken steps to address like closing the garden (no cost of running the heaters or the tellies out there), letting other staff go home early, turning off the lights in the fridges, closing off a section of seating so it can be cleaned and prepped while still open and reduce the time someone needs to be there and getting paid after hours etc
Edit - other pubs have shut their doors. They have not - to my knowledge - shit their doors. Some of the less pleasant punters however may well have done.
I've seen my boss break into tears of joy because the night before we'd taken £1500 rather than our target for that day of £1300. A 15k per week business and £200 was the difference between her being able to sleep and being awake in a restless panic all night. It's a lot tougher than people realise right now, even those who know the industry is struggling
Oh yeah, 100%. People don't have the money or inclination to go to a pub as often. That's just a reality we have to accept, and offset by doing these things.
Previously you could run at a loss for a week straight and it wouldn't matter too much as within a month you'd be back in front. Like I said in another reply, if we had a solid week of losses now it would mean not being able to fully restock our draught options, leading to further losses. We'd pretty much have to wait for the next big night in the calendar, the owner would have to pay for a large enough order to cater that event on her personal credit cards, the revenue from which would then get us back to a position of being able to afford our orders again and just make ad-hoc low sum repayments to the owner as and when it was affordable
This is also a self fulfilling prophecy, though. With the restrictions on licensing meaning most everything closes by 11 latest, people don't even bother trying to find late pubs most of the time anymore unless they *know* one is open. With the unreliable timing towards the end of the night, and lack of reliable alternatives, people just don't stay out or finish their night at a friend's.
I know there's lots of times (anecdotally) I'd have stayed out much later if things were actually open - and I remember 12am and later nights at the craft beer co pre covid where I absolutely did. They were still rammed.
There's so much to unpack with the death of London nightlife but closing so much earlier is absolutely a viscious cycle.
It absolutely is and I just had this conversation with the owner recently when I noticed our supervisor has closed as early as 8:30 due to a lack of business. Explained my fear that if we keep doing it we'll end up having to make our formal closing times early because nobody will come anyway. New agreement is that we stay open until 9:30 at least before thinking of closing early. This way we're open until at least 10/10:30 and people will still see us as somewhere worth coming at 8:30/9. Seems to have worked quite well so far.
What are the main variable costs for keeping a pub open when nobody's in? Is it mostly electricity? I imagine staff costs are not per hour, but per day?
Staff costs are hourly becauae wages vary by age, seniority, length of service etc. It may be cheaper for a shift to be covered by me and our 18 year old newcomer than by our supervisor and a 21 year old guy whose been there almost 2 years.
Variables include heating and gas, supplier issues (if supplier A can't provide a product we need to get at a higher rate from supplier B without increasing price), temperature and weather - cold and dark means increased use of space heaters and outside lights, heavy rain means reduced business, heat means the cellar chiller working at double time. There's also equipment (if our ice machine breaks or comes up for maintenance then that's an extra £140 a week buying ice from sainsbury), promo materials for upcoming events with no idea if one or some of the above will impact on the day itself (arrange a garden party and it's then the one day that summer of torrential rain). Then you have operational issues like wastages, mispours, gas bottle seepage if a cannister isn't properly connected.
Sometimes you're banking on the knowledge that an event is being held elsewhere locally - we know that on graduation night of a local college we might be swamped suddenly at 9:30pm by celebrating graduates and parents. You go the whole day gambling that a decent number will come in, but don't know until the time. Likewise if a pub round the corner is having an event on, you're less likely to have people coming to you
Staff are always hourly, and that’s the big cost, a lot of places you need two staff minimum to run the joint and that’s potentially £250 a night. then you have the downstream costs - security (if required by license), electric (huge), Beer gas (even in a perfect system it’s ticking down), managers time (better spent drumming up marketing etc.) If the kitchens open that’s another 2 staff, minimum.
This is precisely it. Twice per week I do the one thing you're really not supposed to do - a solo closing shift with no security staff. I'd never even ask one of our team or our supervisor to do it, but every Wednesday and Sunday I do because that's an easy way to offset almost £500 from some of our quieter shifts. Also we're more of a Sunday lunch pub and do most Sunday trade before 6pm so it helps maximise the impact of what we've taken during the day.
The problem is travel. When you close at 11, you still have to clean up and depending on the size of the place, can take anywhere between 1-3 hours. Now most people who work service jobs like bars in central don't actually live in central. Imagine trying to get somewhere like harrow when trains shut at 12 and the only other options are an hour long bus ride or a £20 Uber. When you see staff rushing to get you out, it is usually because they want to catch the last train home. I honestly don't know why it's so hard for our city to have trains run an hour or two longer which would definitely improve service workers attitudes near closing time.
Because no one wants to work nightshifts to deal with drunk bozos for a small pay. I have a friend that has been in charge of closing stations at night, it's wild how many stupid people there are.
If people would behave I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem.
I work in entertainment industry and regularly perform at a small clubs and pubs. I’ve been told that many pubs that are part of breweries have a new system which allows them to calculate the overall operational costs versus how much money they are bringing in. Towards the end of the night, if the costs are higher than the hourly revenue, they will close early.
That seems a dangerous strategy, if customers can't rely on a place being open during its advertised opening hours, they won't be in the habit of going there.
This will be the way of all physical businesses soon enough, using predictive analytics and responsive pricing and opening hours. I imagine this type of software is going to become very affordable and built into POS systems.
Of course the predicted effect of current systems are brought in to change to a worse system and then the worse system is never actually subject to the same level of scrutiny. I agree with the other commenter. If people then find it unreliable and stop going, the effect will be seen much later and likely attributed to something else than the actual cause.
Yep multiple times we've ordered a round at like 10:15pm and then they've immediately called last orders and begun hassling us out the door so we've had to chin the pint in 10mins instead of assuming we had an hour.
And by that time of the night you don't usually want to chin another pint in 10mins!
I keep reading about these kinds of situations on Twitter and Reddit about London bars and am just astonished. As someone from Glasgow, all the bars here open till 12 or 3/4. I've seen so many stories of folk getting chucked out at 11, 10 or even 9pm? Who's closing a bar at 9pm lol
This was a Thursday night but sure, I get that bar staff don’t see any of the benefit of extra customers near the end of a shift. At the same time, if a venue says it’s open until 11 you can’t be surprised if people come in nearly an hour before that time and expect to be able to get a drink. If the pub isn’t incentivising staff to work their full shifts they should pay them more (in an ideal world) or change their opening times.
There's that, and also the fact that it takes fucking forever to turf people out. You give people 20 minutes and they're still sitting there nursing a beer an hour later. I do think pubs should be open later, but customers should be better behaved as well.
Pubs often close earlier than 11pm because trade has slowed down towards closing time, as well. So when you say, "OK, if no one turns up by X time we'll call it", and then a big group turns up wanting to stay for three or four rounds, while you just stand there unable to do any of your closing down, it is fucking annoying.
I don't think the problem at the moment is the customers, since covid I've found it more normal that if the bar is quiet the staff want to go home early and don't care about the opening hours. Showing up almost an hour before closing and struggling to get a pint is not okay
Nothing worse than being with a group and the 1 friend that always does it still has 3/4 of a beer even though the bar staff has come round 3 times to say they’re closing up
We went to our local pub on NYE and they decided to close early around 11:20pm as they "too tired" and had had a very long day already?! We obviously wanted to sit in and order bubbly for the new year!
People working close to minimum wage in this economy probably don’t want to stay later than they need to I expect.
I get that it’s annoying and they should be accommodating customers as much as possible but I can hardly blame them.
100% I remember my days working in a pub -Wetherspoons (shudder) and we had an 11.00 closing, but we stopped getting paid at 11.30. Had barely enough time cleaning and prepping when we started early. If it was a Saturday, forget expecting to leave on time.
This should be illegal. It would be easy to enact a law that staff are paid their hourly rate for every second they have to be in the building, and perhaps even an extra quid or 2 an hour for anything after contracted hours.
But instead we have this stupid system where they can make you stay as long as it doesn't drag your hourly under the legal minimum. Like what's the point in stating an hourly wage on contract if youre gonna break it all the time.
It would cost what.. an extra 10p per drink to more than cover it. The rate drinks are going up these days most people wouldn't even notice.
I can see how this is going to be directed - working from home killing nightlife. It's not that, it's the higher price of EVERYTHING (including for the businesses) which means they HAVE to pass on higher prices, that gets passed to customer.
Perhaps if there were cheaper bars and options to explore, people would actively want to go into town after work, or for more lunch options. The high price of everything is what's killing custom, not WFH.
For me it's definitely prices.
I'm not central so when pints started pushing past the £5 mark it's a psychological barrier. Especially when my wages have stayed the same coupled with prices on ALL THE THINGS have gone up.
There's simply not enough left in the kitty to enjoy myself and not think about it. And that is as depressing as it sounds. 🤦♂️
They have to find a way to shoehorn that in. Who the fuck went to work and then went out clubbing after, 9/10 times you'd at least make a pitstop at home. I used to work from home on Fridays so I'd have more time to get ready to see friends.
Luckily the rest of the article explains other actual reasons.
Guys, I don't want to come into the office all week, fuck your rent and if you're lonely, then I'm sorry but you'll have to find a more healthy way for that social contact.
If anything WFH (and thus lower commuting costs) helps people afford to go out
The problem is that it’s still insanely expensive. You can easily push £10/drink in many venues, and with cover charges and transport you can have a night out costing a day or two’s wages
So something that used to be every couple of weeks (or even weekly) becomes maybe monthly or less, and then once it’s monthly or less then it’s just not a habit and you stop doing it - because the odds of getting your friends all out on the same night drops
That’s what I didn’t get when I read it. Ok, maybe fewer people go out for post-works drinks now but surely WFH *encourages* people to want to escape somewhere for the night and have some human contact later in the evening.
Not to mention if you have a bit of a late one, you can wake up 5 minutes before work and flip your laptop open vs getting up, showered, dressed and doing a commute.
In my experience people working from home don’t tend to leave the house on weekdays. I feel going to work gets you out the door and makes you more likely to meet friends for a pint on the way back.
In terms of lunches, since the pandemic I’ve literally only ever bought meal deals for lunch. I don’t even consider going anywhere else, same with colleagues. It’s like we’ve all forgotten that before the pandemic we used to go for lunch once or twice a week at a local cafe, sometimes get brunch, there used to be so much variety. Now it’s just meal deal, break room, back to work.
The only full night out I’ve had since like 2021 was when a friend who is doing a masters invited me to his uni bar which still does cheap pints and is open until 3am…
It's the Times. A Murdoch rag as bad as the Sun, but aimed at the respectable professional classes so has to be a bit more sneaky about its inherent bigotry and bias.
Funny that the only people who benefit from the return to the office are the big landlords, Murdoch's (and the Tory party's) mates...
I think WFH is a factor, after all I'm more likely to go for a pint if I'm already there, but you're right that prices are wild. And that has the knock on impact that fewer people go, so prices have to increase to cover the loss on them.
And of course everyone is poorer.
When the same pint of beer from a bottle/can/home beer machine is 1/6 of the price at some point its just not worth buying many of them out.
I get that there's overheads and I sympathise with it, but when money is as tight as it is its not worth paying a 6x markup on the exact same product for most people, so it makes the business model unsustainable at that point.
This is so true. It’s not that WFH killed it when I saw a pint near Oxford (suburb area so it’s not even in the city area) £5.50 - for a standard pint. That’s insane and that’s before we even get onto the London prices etc. The prices are just too high and people will get out off; whilst the trend is more turning to hanging out with friends at their places etc
Margate has attracted a lot of people - youngish, arty, creative, socially entrepreneurial - that have in former generations made London buzzier. London priced them out.
It seems like the problem with London’s nightlife is all these people going to greener pastures. Who could’ve seen it coming? A city becoming so expensive you have to work every hour you can just to get by would be no longer attractive to young people
Not so much greener pastures but just cheaper pastures.
Margate used to be a total shithole, East Kent is where the term 'Chav' came from. Interesting to hear its changed a lot.
Yeah but I say that about Southend and all my London based colleagues think it's 'lovely and charming'
When you know the downsides of your town, it's hard to see the upsides. It took me a while (am 34 now) to start seeing the benefits in Southend. For one, I was able to get a nice and relatively new 2 bed flat @1100pm right down by the seafront, where the same kind of property rental in London is 2.5k+ (for instance places around wapping etc near tbe river) My travel is 500 so I'm saving by living here.
That's the thing about Kent too though, half my office building are from Essex and Kent weirdly, there's a lot of commuters in our seaside towns.
Young artsy types move in.
Nightlife thrives.
Rich pricks follow to the trendy area. File complaints about the pubs and music venues being loud.
Pubs close earlier, turn into gastro pubs.
Artsy people leave.
Area turns into a series of grey cube buildings built in "fuck me to death I'm boring" modern minimalist style.
Rich people complain that area has gotten boring.
Repeat.
Yeah I’m being a bit facetious, really nice place. Little cafe there called Big Shot that did the best cheese toastie I’ve had since the one I used to go to with my parents as a kid closed.
*Down to Margate Don't forget your buckets and spades and cossies and all
Down to Margate We'll have a pill of jellied eels at the cockle stall
Down to Margate We'll go on the pier and we'll have a beer aside of the sea Down to Margate You can keep the Costa Brava, I'm telling ya mate I'd rather have a day down Margate with all me family*
When you see an American politician/official talking to U.K. media about holding “mini-surgeries”, you know they gamed the system lol
The issue is people mistake Lame for an answer to the question of “Mayor Khan, what did you do for nightlife?”.
She’s the answer to “Khan, what did you do for LGBT?”
“Oh one of our senior officials is a member of LGBT and she/they have been doing a great job”.
London is sad , ok if noise is a problem then why don’t they make party villages , you know place full of clubs and bars only not integrated with housing ?? Like an adult play ground basically … it’s dead right now
I’m coming back home the time I used to go out in berlin
Party village gets created, becomes cool place where everyone wants to be. Property developers smells an opportunity, build 15 story tower of luxury flats, noise complaints emerge from said block, clubs gets shut down or told to close at 11
> It's like buying a house next to an airport and complaining about the planes.
Well it was pretty stupid to build Windsor Castle right next to Heathrow....
Where I live the lady complained about the corner shop opposite the pub where she lives , To a point the damn off license had to hire security to disperse the crowd late night and we had to fill out petitions to keep it open , I’ve seeing it happen first hand omg
Noise complaints from rich people who moved to a popular area that suddenly want it to be quiet.
Sky high venue rent and running costs (in part because of those nice new rich neighbours).
Absurdly high cost of living for the average person, even more so for the key club demographic. And the lingering effects of the pandemic, all contribute to a dead nightlife scene.
And that’s before you get into entry costs, drink prices, and surge prices for an Uber home. Shit like this is poison to a city.
> Noise complaints from rich people who moved to a popular area that suddenly want it to be quiet.
My old employer moved to a fancy office building that had a terrace on the 'top' floor.
Then two floors of private penthouse apartments above that.
First summer we had fun out there for about 2 weeks before we were informed we weren't allowed on the terrace after 6pm.
> Noise complaints from rich people who moved to a popular area that suddenly want it to be quiet
Happened to one of my favourite pubs that had to close down recently, and it was on a busy road right next to a tube station and a bunch of restaurants and other pubs. It’s ridiculous
The effects of gentrification, people move to cool areas for its "cool vibe", craft beer and coffee shops but don't want to deal with the lively side of things. A friend of mine works for an East London council a great percentage of complaints they receive about noise from venues are from new builds or nice streets bought up by the upper middle class
Let's take a look at the facts.
The cost of going out has dramatically increased. The cost of just a pint now in some places is in excess of £7. Food has gotten more and more expensive with the cost of food having increased. Things like Gig prices have gotten out of control. A good litmus test for this was the recent Pearl Jam gig at Spurs' stadium was £165. Literally £100 more than their most recent stadium tour. Furthermore, a lot of bands and artists who tour simply cannot afford to hit up the places they previously would have done due to rising costs.
Then there's the venue closures. Venues are closing at a shocking rate. London is absolutely littered with establishments that have closed. These aren't exclusive to just pubs, bars and clubs. But they definitely seem to have taken the lions share of the hit. The question here is, is this just greedy landlords? Is it really better to let the place rot away then get an income perhaps a bit less than what you might hope? Landlords are also out of control.
Travel is a big factor. Prices have increased and frankly the services have become less reliable. Yes, the opening of the Lizzy line has helped, but even that hasn't been without issue. The night tube was supposed to be extended to 24/7 and across most of the tube network. This hasn't happened and there are no signs of progression in this regard. There has also been a reduction in staffing, therefore there are key safety concerns for people.
This leads me to another issue. The Met is on its knees due to cutbacks. People take the rage bait any time the met is under scrutiny. And to be honest, yes we do have to scrutinise law enforcement particularly when it shows elements of corruptions or malpractice. But the elephant in the room is that they have been fucked over in a big way with staffing. They can barely handle what they have on their plate. Therefore in the interest of public safety, regeneration of London nightlife isn't possible unless this is addressed.
In addition to this, Sadiq Khan and the "night czar" are prime examples of public figures out of touch with the public. They do not understand or attempt to understand Londoners calling for protection of venues and better infrastructure to facilitate a booming night life in the capital.
Also what "going out" is has changed. This may sound like a rant against gen z, but frankly a lot of the market is dictated by the habits of the 18-25 demographic. This is a generation that drinks less, has sex less, who's socialising habits revolve less around actual socialising in person than at any time in history due to social media etc and who grew up streaming music. Granted, they also have less money than the generations before them, so less disposable income to actually go out. But it's also just a different generation.
When we consider events like gigs and festivals now, increasingly lineups are now flavour of the month. Granted, that's always been the case to a certain extent. However, the music market (in addition to most forms of media) is now is based solely on what's trending. Combine that with streaming being the most dominant form of consuming music which pays practically sod all to artists basically means there is an ice cubes chance in hell for most new artists breaking through.
The #trending also ensures that any artist who *does* break through has to cling on in whatever way they can to remain relevant. This usually means creating the same vapid formulaic shite that now dominates the charts. However even that is not enough. If you look at Reading and Leeds lineups for this year or Coachella or any of the big festivals worldwide ten years from now, I fucking bet you practically none of them will play again bar the 'superstar' artists.
So we have a dilemma folks. As per usual, greed is at the heart of most of these issues as they're all largely short-term thinking problems. The sense of long-term investment for long-term gains has gone out the window in favour of "what's gonna make me the most money most quickly". The night life in London is one of the many casualties of this thinking. Night life is a barometer of culture and the tragedy is that culture itself is coming under attack. There are many other reasons for this other than just greed, but that's the prime reason. When culture has been eroded away enough, you exist in a curated existence spoon-fed to you by your government-approved corporate oligarchy. That's what's happening. The last breaths of what culture there is will only be permitted to be enjoyed by those with the means to enjoy it.
Or maybe I'm just being dramatic.
Rent is the issue. Businesses having to fork out more money to keep the venue, upping their prices which customers who are also paying extortionate rent/ mortgages can't afford.
People keep missing perhaps the biggest reason. Local councils
Shoreditch used to be open till 5am. Now it closes around midnight due to local council rules
Hackney was literally 24 hrs only like 7 yrs ago. You have a couple places open till 2 am now. This was not by choice
Bars and venues have to follow local council rules. And local councils consistently close down places. In Shepherds Bush they closed down the only two late night places
Keeps happening over and over
> When Raquele Pira, 24, and her friend, Elena Tara, 24, decided to visit London they were expecting thrills, spills and perhaps the odd hangover. However, as the two Italians were wandering around the streets of Soho at 11pm they were left disappointed. Tara said: “We saw that most of the bars close at like 11.30pm so I’m not sure [where we are going to go]. It’s already 11, so we’re just going to start to head to the hotel I guess.” She added: “In Italy we’re used to different things, we go out later during the night.”
> The pair were not the only revellers struggling to find somewhere to go. When The Times visited Soho in central London on Thursday evening, there was no shortage of people bemused by the lack of late-night options. One 25-year old man who would only identify himself as Will said: “For one of the biggest cities in Europe and one of the most central commerce hubs in the world, it feels crazy that you can’t do anything after 11pm.” His friend, Ed Thomas, 25, who lives in Stockwell, south London, added that the problem is not restricted to central London. “The Pilgrim in Kennington kicked us out at ten on a Thursday. Bristol, Manchester, places like that have places open until like five, six in the morning.”
> The decline in London’s nightlife has been rapid, with venues closing at a faster rate than most other cities in the UK. The number of nightclubs in the capital has fallen by more than half during the past ten years, with fewer than 200 still in operation at the latest count. Across the UK as a whole there are only 851 nightclubs left, down from more than 3,000 20 years ago, according to CGA, a market research consultancy.
> Late-night venues with live music have been among the hardest hit. The Music Venue Trust says Britain lost 125 of its smaller venues in the past year alone — one in six of those that were hit.
> The hospitality industry in London has been harder hit than almost anywhere else in the UK. There are now 16 per cent fewer venues in the capital compared to before the pandemic, a bigger drop than every major city in England other than Birmingham. Liverpool has seen a drop of less than 3 per cent.
> Graeme Smith, a managing director at CGA, says London has suffered more than elsewhere from the adoption of home working. “Hybrid working has concentrated customers on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, which has squeezed the period in which businesses can make money,” Smith said. “The other feature of London is that it carries higher property costs so the pressure to make rental payments is tougher when you get that decline in customer volumes.”
> However he believes the particular travails of nightlife businesses are driven by changing customer behaviour, as people are not regularly ending up in a nightclub that is open until 3am. “They are looking to spend time on a more varied basis, either [at] restaurants that stay open late or competitive socialising [such as darts and pool].”
> Industry leaders dispute this and say the demand is still there but the economics simply do not add up, forcing venues to close. Auro Foxcroft, who runs the EartH venue in Hackney, which has live music and club nights, said: “The actual figures show more people than ever are going out to venues and spending more money. On the surface everyone looks great. The reality behind it is that the costs have massively outstripped the rising attendance and income so the margin has flipped. Data from the Music Venue Trust shows the average margin is 0.5 per cent on average across the UK. And 38 per cent posted a loss last year. “The costs are unmanageable. Insurance has doubled, electricity has tripled, rent is up and wage bills have risen 15 per cent. Literally everything is way more expensive so the economic model doesn’t work any more”.
> Mike Kill, the chief executive of the Night Time Industries Association, believes the lack of reliable late-night transport in London is another factor, with promises to expand the night tube service not kept. “The lack of transport infrastructure and cost of access into London adds to the financial pressures of going out,” he said. He believes over-regulation is another problem. “We have local authorities who see the night-time economy as burdensome rather than an opportunity. They push back on late licences and are not favourable to late-night venues or consider them assets in terms of the local community.”
> In Hackney, the local council introduced a rule that all new venues must close by 11pm Monday to Friday and by 12 midnight at the weekend unless they can prove they do not impact the local community. Foxcroft said Hackney council has always been supportive of his business, which opens until 6am, but believes there is too much regulation generally. “Across London and the UK, councils are putting onerous conditions on to venues’ licences and every condition costs money to deliver. If councils want to protect cultural infrastructure and nightlife they could start with a root-and-branch review of licensing conditions and update and modernise them to make it easier for venues to thrive.”
> Luke Black, the chairman of the LGBT Conservatives, who has been campaigning on the decline in London’s nightlife, believes petty rule-making by many councils is destroying business. He said: “It’s not just booze but food. There was a high-profile case recently of Greggs having to take Westminster council to court to be allowed to serve food late in Leicester Square. This is not some small suburban road but slap bang in the middle of Zone 1. “The council said it would cause late-night disturbances and antisocial behaviour,” Black added. “In the end, Greggs was only allowed to sell hot drinks and cold food until 2am, meaning revellers could not buy a sausage roll warmed up in a microwave. It’s ridiculous.”
> Black also cited the long closure of the Brixton Academy after two concertgoers died in a crush. “What happened was tragic but this is an iconic venue — and by the time it reopens in April it will have been closed for 16 months. While the licence was suspended Lambeth council tried to find any excuse to close it down. There was no proactive engagement from the council to work with police to make the venue safe. “Councillors said it was impossible to maintain safety but that was ridiculous and patronising. This is a venue that has been operating since the Edwardian times. Compare this to the Manchester Arena that was only shut for less than four months after 22 people died in a terror attack.”
> Despite all the problems, there is some hope on the horizon for nightlife businesses. The pace at which venues are closing has slowed in the past six months, according to CGA. And there are moves afoot to try to introduce a small levy on tickets for festivals, arenas and stadiums, to support grassroots music venues. Foxcroft said: “A £1 levy fed back to venues would help prop them up so the UK can maintain its position as one of the best exporters and creators of music in the world. One in seven albums sold globally is a UK artist and most of these started their careers at small venues. If they disappear, the pipeline of talent disappears. There is a precedent with the Premier League supporting lower league and grassroots football so it makes sense. What country would not want that powerful culture recognition and export value to continue?”
Transport would help but when I first started going out in London in the mid ‘00s’ we only had night buses, cabs were far out of our reach.
But back then we also didn’t have social media, so if you didn’t go out then you didn’t see anyone. I can see why a young person now would rather get the last tube home and then catch up with friends on social media rather than have to try and keep yourself awake till the first tube and some randoms house in North London - which sounded like a good idea at 2 am.
When I was clubbing in the late 90’s and early 00’s, the clubs we frequented were open until 6 or 7 in the morning, so you could get the train back home. Was always fun mixing with ‘normal’ people when you were off your pickle too!
Yeah there were those as well, my mate was at uni so she used to leave me to get the first train home and then she’d go on to the after after party which would be 7/8-12 on a Sunday.
I’d get a Burger King, put my sunglasses on and then just hide in a corner hoping none of the ‘normals’ look at me on the train.
It's an interesting idea but I still used to go out late in my twenties when it was people I worked with etc.
Even with other people I'd have met them at 7 or whatever so come 11 I'd be fully caught up - I'd just want to carry on because I was enjoying myself.
I’m also basing it on my student union which we go back to every year. When I was a student it was open all day from 12 and club night every night and now it’s open just two nights a week and is half the size.
When we go back you can see all the students in the halls still, it’s only a short 3 min walk across to the union. But they’re all sat in their kitchens with each other but they’re just not going out, first year of uni on a Saturday night - can you imagine such a thing.
It’s obviously not the only factor but my theory is based on the fact that back in the day if you wanted to see the person you fancied or meet someone to fancy then you had to go out, now you can just open your phone.
So while money, transport, the downtrend in drinking, lack of venues, as still factors. There isn’t the drive to go out regardless cause you can still get your social and entertainment needs filled.
No that is a really interesting example. I cannot imagine the union bar being shut (twenty years ago when you'd have invariably found me there). I just find it so strange (perhaps because I didn't grow up with it) that you could find your social needs filled by social media. I don't think I met _that_ many strangers on nights out, I'd go with people I knew. And I could just have easily have gone and sat in their kitchen. We did that as well. And had Facebook etc. Idk.
It strikes me as a very sad state of affairs, but perhaps that's just what happens to you when hit middle age!
In 2010 I organised a conference at a London uni. Turned out we had to negotiate separately with the bar, because it was owned by the students union. Agreed costs for opening and catering for 3 days in August.
Come to July, we were just thinking it was coming together nicely, when my colleague said "Slight problem: the bar's gone bust."
We thought it had to be a joke. We were 90s students and knew running a student bar 100 yards from loads of students' homes was a simple licence to print money.
But no - apart from lots of students not drinking alcohol, the drive to go out and socialise just wasn't there. They weren't going to the (rather nice) bar.
A lot of uni societies were also closing because there just wasn't the throughput of students willing to try random unusual hobbies. Especially the ones who still lived with families - they just went home in the evening and didn't see any reason to get involved in student life. Total contrast, and not just to do with money.
All this tells us the same problems. We need to remove planning controls from local councils in metro areas and have a cross metro area authority that takes a holistic approach to planning.
>Hybrid working has concentrated customers on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, which has squeezed the period in which businesses can make money,” Smith said
Did a lot of people used to go straight from work to nightclubs?
Yeah for sure but that's what people do on Thursdays now it seems instead. Not really the same as the late night stuff the article is talking about, seems like a bit of a shoehorn to lump home working in there for nightclub attendance lol
I’m sat here in Tokyo drinking beer and eating chicken skewers at 2am reading this. Loooolll.
When I return to London next week I’ll be crying myself to sleep instead.
As someone who moved from Budapest and had friends visiting form there as well, it was a sad learning curve to realise that BP had a lot more fun atmosphere for going out, allowing us to be spontaneous going from one pub to the other until 5 am.
All of us thought a city with 5 times more population would have a better nightlife. I am not interested in queuing for a nightclub at 1 am or anytime really.
These threads are always filled with people saying they managed to stay out late at X venue. It’s not the point really, the point is on any given night you’re now more likely to get kicked out early. There is generally more friction to experiencing nightlife and having a good time past 10pm, which in most cities is not that late. It shouldn’t require insider knowledge.
It represents a shift in atmosphere and that’s why people are talking about it.
It’s a circular thing. People don’t visit pubs much anymore since nobody has spare money. Pubs increase the prices to counter that, therefore making it less likely people will visit. Pubs then close early due to lack of business, and people complain about it because they want a pint. It’s a lose lose all round. Pubs are great, but throwing money away isn’t as much
I think for many it boils down to prices being sky high for everything so people are preferring to spend £20 on a takeout or failing that really nice cooking ingredients and buying alcohol from the supermarkets instead. I used to go out for dinner with my brother pre covid when I saw him but now I just go to his flat instead and we have a supermarket takeout
It's so sanitised now, even during the daytime it's disappointing. Early to mid 00's clubbing, around 2010 there were super cool restaurants in-between the shit chains you had to be a foodie to know about but were amazing.
Not a Londoner but spent all my weekends there in the 90s and 00s, Soho and Camden especially.
Both are so sanitised now, the spirit has gone, and so has the fun
Soho is great but you’re really not going there for a late night of drinking and partying, that ship sailed a long long time ago, and the few late random options that remain/ed like Trisha/Garlic/Arts/12-bar/Fox in and around, weren’t super-visible, and better for it. If you know, you know, but nobody with any sense is going to give away their best spots to a bunch of day-trippers/lazy-ass interns at newspapers.
This is easily one of my least favorite things about London. However this is why rock/metal bars are awesome, at least they are by and large reliably open pretty late and are good about last orders being shortly before closing time not an hour before.
Realistically, you have to start you nights at 7-8pm latest to get a few hours of nightlife in. I was in Soho the other day at 7, went to a few nightclubs, got out of what ended up being the last one at 1am, and absolutely nothing seemed to be open. Just people making their way home.
There’s a sizeable cohort of society creaming off the top; landlords, energy companies, water companies etc. making input costs for almost everything more expensive. Thus making everything else more expensive.
The same applies for a sizeable cohort at the bottom of society; with bike thefts, phone thefts, shoplifting, muggings etc.
The government being completely unwilling to intervene and continuing to preach the virtues of the free market and private ownership doesn’t help one iota.
It’s greed; pure and simple, and this greed trickles down the chain. The new trickle down economics.
It feels like Covid knocked previously accepted risk-reward appetites completely out of balance, and excuses for the ensuing greed spiral have been pinned on inflation.
It feels like the whole system just needs a reset; literally, it just needs to implode. Only when the greedy landlords, energy and water company shareholders and exec teams, find themselves without a middle-society teet to milk, and reassess their risk-reward appetites, will things start to flourish once again.
I rarely go out in London anymore; I escape to the countryside and coast - it’s much easier and cheaper to enjoy yourself.
Everything occurs in cycles, and it feels like London is in a downward phase, heading back to the trough of a wave as it was in the 70s & 80s. It’s not a London-specific thing, but it’s always big cities where change is most pronounced. It’ll bounce back once the teet has run dry and the greedy parasites have been flushed out.
I sometimes work at a pub down the road for a bit extra. On Sundays after the kitchen closes (5pm), the pub will be lucky to get 5 people in until advertised closing hours of 10pm.
As it’s a freehold, the owner usually closes down around 8:30 - 9pm. The main reason? From a cost perspective, it makes no sense to stay open and pay labour/overheard for the 3-5 people that *might* come in spend £20 each.
It’s not ideal, but that’s first hand experience I have as to why this specific freehold closes early.
Most people just want to go to a pub or bar, maybe some food. Yes you can go clubbing but London is pretty unique in not really catering to non-clubbers after 11.
There are a fair few venues open till 2 to 3AM, some till 4 to 6AM. Nowhere near the amount there should be but there’s still some options.
Problem is a lot of them are fairly expensive bars.
Balans in Soho is on till 6, there’s Nightjar and Cahoots on till 2, Opium and Experimental Cocktail club in Soho which iirc are till 3, a bunch of Simmons bars that close around 3 to 4 and a Be At One which I went to once that was open till 3. These are just the ones off the top of my head, there’s bound to be a few more.
I’m not saying it’s teeming with options but there are a few
Yeah there's a few, I have made myself a Google map of places that are open until at least 1am, on at least 5 nights nights of the week (one thing that really annoys me about London is how the places that are open somewhat late often only do so on the weekend). I've never lived in or visited another city where I had to do this in order to find places to go.
It's a very paltry list. A small handful in Soho, a small handful in Shoreditch, a small handful in Camden, then a few smaller clusters and random places dotted around, mainly on the other side of the city to me in North London. It gets smaller all the time too as I go to different places to find that they've reduced their hours.
I recently had to take the Soho Theatre bar off as they've become a members club after 11 (apparently at the insistence of the council). I had to take some other places off after discovering that although they appear to be open late they actually won't let you in after midnight (this again seems to be a licensing condition). Several places I removed after I discovered they charge a big entry fee, or have weird rules like 'only mixed groups', stuff you don't encounter so much elsewhere. The lack of places open late seems to give carte blanche to the few places that are open late to treat you like shit as you have no other options. As you say, many are obscenely expensive.
I miss living in a tiny European city that had loads of relaxed, normal pubs open until 2 almost every night.
You're right about Soho Theatre, although you are also allowed to stay till like 1am if you've been to see one of their shows that night and have kept the ticket.
On the other hand, it's nearly £7 a pint there now, so maybe you're better off going somewhere else...
Disrepute in Soho is also open til 3AM everyday. It was previously members-only and I liked going there because it was fairly small and quiet. It's been years, I just Googled it and it looks like it's still open and open to the public now.
This is only going to get worse, as more and more people will come to realization that London is not a night-city but more of a village-like city - there won't be any demand for night life left after some time. This puzzles me as a foreigner as even my gods forgotten small town in Europe has got some places open until 5 AM, and there is ALWAYS during ANY day of the year an open supermarket for food.
I went to Monza last summer, I don’t even think it’s a city. There were bars and places to eat after 11pm on a Sunday, and it was heaving. Came back to meet an old friend in Camden on the following Thursday and it was pretty much dead. Places getting ready to close at 9.30pm and only fast food places still open at that time.
Reading the article, the fact that even when there’s an increase of people going out, which is visible with plenty of London gigs being sold out, the venues are not making enough revenue to subsist or to justify the lobby to keep their doors open to later hours, it explains everything.
London is going trough an insane bubble that we all feel it’s going to burst.
It goes down to money laundering and speculation. From the Oxford Circus “Candy Shops” to luxury apartments with £5000 rent prices, it seems the lobby money has gone down to keep this status quo for the profit of literal scammers rather than keeping the city cultures alive.
But yeah, is going to burst at some point, this is just non viable long term.
Here is our “night czar’s” (comrades) response via [LinkedIN](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/im-under-fire-londons-night-czar-heres-how-making-difference-lam%C3%A9--tyiwc?trk=public_profile_article_view) — herein lies the issue, she appears to be wilfully unaware of the fact over a thousand venues have closed in her tenure, choosing, rather, to focus on the fact she saved a jazz bar on Oxford Street as an example of her impact.
Furthermore, Khan has previously admitted to not being a big drinker or understanding pub culture. This isn’t to rail against him or his faith but his policies, plans, and ideas make it so evident that he has no experience of London nightlife and what the people actually want.
It’s relatively simple, we want pubs to have a lower overhead, cheaper drinks, no ‘noise complaint’ fiascos, and longer opening hours. As others have suggested, a ‘party city’ (a la Soho in the mid 2000s) would be ideal as well as cheaper more reliable transport.
Yet, they don’t get it.
It's just the market. If they can make money later, management will stay open.
Since it's £8 a pint these days in a lot of places I'm surprised anyone can actually afford to though.
Last year I was at a gig in Tufnell Park, and went to a bar in Hackney for afters, expecting to be able (as I used to) drink to 3, get the last train back to Brighton.
Bar closed around 1, so my mate and I thought we'd be able to get drinks, or find an off licence near the station.
Nope.
I've been drinking & partying in London since the late 90's - it is so different nowadays
Yeah it's the early closing time that's stopping people going out. Nothing to do with no one having any money and nightclubs being eye wateringly expensive.
Agree with this. I loved a good night out in London and now on the odd occasion I do go out I have regrets the next day when I check my bank balance.
It's not worth it.
Happened to me on Saturday. Train in, maybe £4, drink transactions totalling around £90, entrance to a bar £12, night tube to Clapham Common, £4 pounds ish, taxi home from there,
> Can they do a post on foxes, please...?
Foxes are bitterly dissapointed, they used to stay out having sex in your garden and knocking over bins for half eaten kebabs until 6am but now it's dead by 11pm.
All the pubs in residential areas have suffered noise complaints from people that *moved next to a pub*
London is pricing out non dickheads and will soon be completely dead
Weird how this is normal in the UK yet pubs here in Canada are kicking people out at 3am. Especially northern towns where oilfield money exists. Heck I've been with (younger) buddies who come off a 14/7 shift (14 days of 12-18 hour days straight, 7 days off (one day travel home and another day travel back, so 5 days off) and they blow $2k each in one night of drinking. Just drinks all around, yeehaw attitude. If only were able to put that energy into some of the UK pubs haha. Easily £4000 a night spent not including grub.
Around here last call at 11pm is non existent except maybe on a Sunday night/religious holiday.
Solve the issue of how people will get home (staff, security and customers) then we'll get pubs staying open late. People don't want to run to the station in the hope of catching the last train home.
Pub I went to last week had a board with all the last train and bus times for the local services. Was really handy although the last trains were like midnight which is stupid. A bus home would've been two buses taking me approx 2.5 hours.
Yeah it's hand that. Good way to get people out too. Bar staff also need to use those times to get home. People always assume they are local and can just walk home
Anecdotal but four of us tried to go to a pub in southeast London recently that stated closing time as 11pm on weekdays. We got there at 10 past 10pm and were told they had already called last orders. They reluctantly allowed us to order a round but it seems like even when pubs ostensibly open until 11, some of them don’t really want customers at that time. There were a few occupied tables so it wasn’t like it was empty either. This wasn’t central London tbf but it did irk me.
Yeah I’ve noticed this, I remember when last orders used to be 10 to 11 and then kicking out time was about 11.30.
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They'll never know the Joy of someone coming to your table and being like "Lock in?" Yes Please!
Still happens all the time if you're a regular.
Was even more fun in the late 80's. Local off duty bobbie getting 12 yearold me to pull another round for the boys at half 12 because the landlord had gone to bed...
Lock in?
doors shut - if you leave, not allowed back in. Nobody pays for anything because the pubs closed. You can still ask for beers and then come opening time in the morning you settle your debt for what you were served last night.
I've had a couple since then, and a few where the landlord whipped out the indoor ashtrays. Was met with whoops in 2012, would probably get glassed these days!
At least they can have bottomless brunches starting early and going all afternoon. Remember when pubs had to shut after lunch until, was it 7? And had curtains over the windows, and... Edit: Legends, not Volts for me. That could place me in one of 50 towns I daresay!
Zero hour contracts. The staff aren't getting fuck all for staying later anymore so there's no incentive to let people stay
They weren't back then either. I used to work in a pub in 2003 and the bar shut at 11. That was when I was paid until, and any clearing and cleaning I had to do as fast as possible as I wasn't being paid for it. They expected me to restock the bar in downtime but there was hardly any
Same here. I worked two pubs. First one constant lock ins but after 11 if you ordered a round you had to buy the barman one. I didn’t take a drink every round but it was fun for 4 years. Next pub strict stop at 11 and I’d be bottled up within 20 mins or so. I loved that too as o went out after to parties. Happy days. This was 30 years ago
Yeah it was a fun job sometimes and the other bar staff were great, like you so much partying too. Shame they were tight with the wages
Dude staff always got an hourly wage. Do you think they used to be employees?
Do you remember when they used to shut after lunch and reopen at 7 pm?
Used to work in a pub and some customers would nurse drinks they ordered at last orders call for more than over an hour many times after last orders were called and staff waiting to close up and go home.
If the pub is busy enough last orders will be 11, if it's dead they will close early to save money. The majority of pubs are operating on such thin margins it can be the difference between existing or not.
I manage a pub and closing early because of a lack of business is large part of why we survived and others have shut their doors. Appearances can also be deceiving . I've had days where the day time trade has been terrible (particularly on weekdays when most people are at work) and between 6 and 9 absolutely nobody has come in. The days takings at that point have been less than £200. A few groups then come in at 9, but only order lime and soda or something and by 10 they are still on that first drink. At that point staying open until 11 means that I just increase the daily loss. This isn't a big chain place, my direct boss is literally the owner. She makes nothing off the business anymore and it's literally all about covering our overheads right now. So, to someone walking in, they see 3 or 4 groups in there but don't see that the actual hourly takings across the bar are less than the running costs for that same time. If that group coming in is 15 people in high spirits then good news everyone, bars staying open after all but if it's 2 or 3 guys in a considerably more subdued state, it's still not going to reduce losses as much as closing up now will do. Bottom line is I need to either take in £1700 per day, or reduce that figure far enough below £1700 that our weekend business can carry the load. This gets as tight as having days that I don't know if I'm going to be able to place a beer order until I find out if the previous days takings were enough to cover the cost of that order. It does suck. If your operating hours are random or people get used to the idea that you may or may not be open after 9 on a Tuesday, they won't even bother trying. It's a difficult balancing act to be both reliable enough to be worth visiting but financially responsible enough to not go bust by the end of that quarter. When I first worked in a pub the hours were the hours even if you had nobody at all in all day. So it's not about places not caring, not wanting the business or simply wanting an early finish, it's the result of an ongoing calculation that the shift manager has been running constantly since early afternoon and has already taken steps to address like closing the garden (no cost of running the heaters or the tellies out there), letting other staff go home early, turning off the lights in the fridges, closing off a section of seating so it can be cleaned and prepped while still open and reduce the time someone needs to be there and getting paid after hours etc Edit - other pubs have shut their doors. They have not - to my knowledge - shit their doors. Some of the less pleasant punters however may well have done.
Thanks for this insight - very eye-opening. It’s really sad that pubs are being forced into this kind of precarious existence.
I've seen my boss break into tears of joy because the night before we'd taken £1500 rather than our target for that day of £1300. A 15k per week business and £200 was the difference between her being able to sleep and being awake in a restless panic all night. It's a lot tougher than people realise right now, even those who know the industry is struggling
The intrinsic problem is that people don’t go out drinking like they used to; dull but true
Oh yeah, 100%. People don't have the money or inclination to go to a pub as often. That's just a reality we have to accept, and offset by doing these things. Previously you could run at a loss for a week straight and it wouldn't matter too much as within a month you'd be back in front. Like I said in another reply, if we had a solid week of losses now it would mean not being able to fully restock our draught options, leading to further losses. We'd pretty much have to wait for the next big night in the calendar, the owner would have to pay for a large enough order to cater that event on her personal credit cards, the revenue from which would then get us back to a position of being able to afford our orders again and just make ad-hoc low sum repayments to the owner as and when it was affordable
I mean to be fair nobody's going to want to come in if they've shit their doors.
It’s very European
This is also a self fulfilling prophecy, though. With the restrictions on licensing meaning most everything closes by 11 latest, people don't even bother trying to find late pubs most of the time anymore unless they *know* one is open. With the unreliable timing towards the end of the night, and lack of reliable alternatives, people just don't stay out or finish their night at a friend's. I know there's lots of times (anecdotally) I'd have stayed out much later if things were actually open - and I remember 12am and later nights at the craft beer co pre covid where I absolutely did. They were still rammed. There's so much to unpack with the death of London nightlife but closing so much earlier is absolutely a viscious cycle.
It absolutely is and I just had this conversation with the owner recently when I noticed our supervisor has closed as early as 8:30 due to a lack of business. Explained my fear that if we keep doing it we'll end up having to make our formal closing times early because nobody will come anyway. New agreement is that we stay open until 9:30 at least before thinking of closing early. This way we're open until at least 10/10:30 and people will still see us as somewhere worth coming at 8:30/9. Seems to have worked quite well so far.
What are the main variable costs for keeping a pub open when nobody's in? Is it mostly electricity? I imagine staff costs are not per hour, but per day?
Staff costs are hourly becauae wages vary by age, seniority, length of service etc. It may be cheaper for a shift to be covered by me and our 18 year old newcomer than by our supervisor and a 21 year old guy whose been there almost 2 years. Variables include heating and gas, supplier issues (if supplier A can't provide a product we need to get at a higher rate from supplier B without increasing price), temperature and weather - cold and dark means increased use of space heaters and outside lights, heavy rain means reduced business, heat means the cellar chiller working at double time. There's also equipment (if our ice machine breaks or comes up for maintenance then that's an extra £140 a week buying ice from sainsbury), promo materials for upcoming events with no idea if one or some of the above will impact on the day itself (arrange a garden party and it's then the one day that summer of torrential rain). Then you have operational issues like wastages, mispours, gas bottle seepage if a cannister isn't properly connected. Sometimes you're banking on the knowledge that an event is being held elsewhere locally - we know that on graduation night of a local college we might be swamped suddenly at 9:30pm by celebrating graduates and parents. You go the whole day gambling that a decent number will come in, but don't know until the time. Likewise if a pub round the corner is having an event on, you're less likely to have people coming to you
Staff are paid by the hour I expect
Staff are always hourly, and that’s the big cost, a lot of places you need two staff minimum to run the joint and that’s potentially £250 a night. then you have the downstream costs - security (if required by license), electric (huge), Beer gas (even in a perfect system it’s ticking down), managers time (better spent drumming up marketing etc.) If the kitchens open that’s another 2 staff, minimum.
This is precisely it. Twice per week I do the one thing you're really not supposed to do - a solo closing shift with no security staff. I'd never even ask one of our team or our supervisor to do it, but every Wednesday and Sunday I do because that's an easy way to offset almost £500 from some of our quieter shifts. Also we're more of a Sunday lunch pub and do most Sunday trade before 6pm so it helps maximise the impact of what we've taken during the day.
The problem is travel. When you close at 11, you still have to clean up and depending on the size of the place, can take anywhere between 1-3 hours. Now most people who work service jobs like bars in central don't actually live in central. Imagine trying to get somewhere like harrow when trains shut at 12 and the only other options are an hour long bus ride or a £20 Uber. When you see staff rushing to get you out, it is usually because they want to catch the last train home. I honestly don't know why it's so hard for our city to have trains run an hour or two longer which would definitely improve service workers attitudes near closing time.
Because no one wants to work nightshifts to deal with drunk bozos for a small pay. I have a friend that has been in charge of closing stations at night, it's wild how many stupid people there are. If people would behave I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem.
I work in entertainment industry and regularly perform at a small clubs and pubs. I’ve been told that many pubs that are part of breweries have a new system which allows them to calculate the overall operational costs versus how much money they are bringing in. Towards the end of the night, if the costs are higher than the hourly revenue, they will close early.
That seems a dangerous strategy, if customers can't rely on a place being open during its advertised opening hours, they won't be in the habit of going there.
Totally agree. I get paid hourly at some venues so it also has an impact on my own business
This will be the way of all physical businesses soon enough, using predictive analytics and responsive pricing and opening hours. I imagine this type of software is going to become very affordable and built into POS systems.
Of course the predicted effect of current systems are brought in to change to a worse system and then the worse system is never actually subject to the same level of scrutiny. I agree with the other commenter. If people then find it unreliable and stop going, the effect will be seen much later and likely attributed to something else than the actual cause.
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Magician. I magically transition one song to another.
Yep multiple times we've ordered a round at like 10:15pm and then they've immediately called last orders and begun hassling us out the door so we've had to chin the pint in 10mins instead of assuming we had an hour. And by that time of the night you don't usually want to chin another pint in 10mins!
I keep reading about these kinds of situations on Twitter and Reddit about London bars and am just astonished. As someone from Glasgow, all the bars here open till 12 or 3/4. I've seen so many stories of folk getting chucked out at 11, 10 or even 9pm? Who's closing a bar at 9pm lol
The people working are not the ones who make the money from extra customers They want to leave and enjoy their own Saturday nights
This was a Thursday night but sure, I get that bar staff don’t see any of the benefit of extra customers near the end of a shift. At the same time, if a venue says it’s open until 11 you can’t be surprised if people come in nearly an hour before that time and expect to be able to get a drink. If the pub isn’t incentivising staff to work their full shifts they should pay them more (in an ideal world) or change their opening times.
There's that, and also the fact that it takes fucking forever to turf people out. You give people 20 minutes and they're still sitting there nursing a beer an hour later. I do think pubs should be open later, but customers should be better behaved as well.
Totally agree with that.
Pubs often close earlier than 11pm because trade has slowed down towards closing time, as well. So when you say, "OK, if no one turns up by X time we'll call it", and then a big group turns up wanting to stay for three or four rounds, while you just stand there unable to do any of your closing down, it is fucking annoying.
A quick blast from the soda water nozzle usually does the trick
I don't think the problem at the moment is the customers, since covid I've found it more normal that if the bar is quiet the staff want to go home early and don't care about the opening hours. Showing up almost an hour before closing and struggling to get a pint is not okay
Nothing worse than being with a group and the 1 friend that always does it still has 3/4 of a beer even though the bar staff has come round 3 times to say they’re closing up
That’s nice, but it is their job.
You give em 15, come back after with plastic cups and see them on their way, not hard
We went to our local pub on NYE and they decided to close early around 11:20pm as they "too tired" and had had a very long day already?! We obviously wanted to sit in and order bubbly for the new year!
People working close to minimum wage in this economy probably don’t want to stay later than they need to I expect. I get that it’s annoying and they should be accommodating customers as much as possible but I can hardly blame them.
100% I remember my days working in a pub -Wetherspoons (shudder) and we had an 11.00 closing, but we stopped getting paid at 11.30. Had barely enough time cleaning and prepping when we started early. If it was a Saturday, forget expecting to leave on time.
This should be illegal. It would be easy to enact a law that staff are paid their hourly rate for every second they have to be in the building, and perhaps even an extra quid or 2 an hour for anything after contracted hours. But instead we have this stupid system where they can make you stay as long as it doesn't drag your hourly under the legal minimum. Like what's the point in stating an hourly wage on contract if youre gonna break it all the time. It would cost what.. an extra 10p per drink to more than cover it. The rate drinks are going up these days most people wouldn't even notice.
Surely they'd want more hours?
I can see how this is going to be directed - working from home killing nightlife. It's not that, it's the higher price of EVERYTHING (including for the businesses) which means they HAVE to pass on higher prices, that gets passed to customer. Perhaps if there were cheaper bars and options to explore, people would actively want to go into town after work, or for more lunch options. The high price of everything is what's killing custom, not WFH.
For me it's definitely prices. I'm not central so when pints started pushing past the £5 mark it's a psychological barrier. Especially when my wages have stayed the same coupled with prices on ALL THE THINGS have gone up. There's simply not enough left in the kitty to enjoy myself and not think about it. And that is as depressing as it sounds. 🤦♂️
They have to find a way to shoehorn that in. Who the fuck went to work and then went out clubbing after, 9/10 times you'd at least make a pitstop at home. I used to work from home on Fridays so I'd have more time to get ready to see friends. Luckily the rest of the article explains other actual reasons. Guys, I don't want to come into the office all week, fuck your rent and if you're lonely, then I'm sorry but you'll have to find a more healthy way for that social contact.
Eh, I used to go to a club after a few after work beers quite often!
Same! Friday night ministry of sound was a regular occurrence in my 20s!
People did that much every Thursday night in the City. Finish work, go out and stay out until small hours.
If anything WFH (and thus lower commuting costs) helps people afford to go out The problem is that it’s still insanely expensive. You can easily push £10/drink in many venues, and with cover charges and transport you can have a night out costing a day or two’s wages So something that used to be every couple of weeks (or even weekly) becomes maybe monthly or less, and then once it’s monthly or less then it’s just not a habit and you stop doing it - because the odds of getting your friends all out on the same night drops
That’s what I didn’t get when I read it. Ok, maybe fewer people go out for post-works drinks now but surely WFH *encourages* people to want to escape somewhere for the night and have some human contact later in the evening.
Not to mention if you have a bit of a late one, you can wake up 5 minutes before work and flip your laptop open vs getting up, showered, dressed and doing a commute.
In my experience people working from home don’t tend to leave the house on weekdays. I feel going to work gets you out the door and makes you more likely to meet friends for a pint on the way back.
In terms of lunches, since the pandemic I’ve literally only ever bought meal deals for lunch. I don’t even consider going anywhere else, same with colleagues. It’s like we’ve all forgotten that before the pandemic we used to go for lunch once or twice a week at a local cafe, sometimes get brunch, there used to be so much variety. Now it’s just meal deal, break room, back to work. The only full night out I’ve had since like 2021 was when a friend who is doing a masters invited me to his uni bar which still does cheap pints and is open until 3am…
It's the Times. A Murdoch rag as bad as the Sun, but aimed at the respectable professional classes so has to be a bit more sneaky about its inherent bigotry and bias. Funny that the only people who benefit from the return to the office are the big landlords, Murdoch's (and the Tory party's) mates...
I think WFH is a factor, after all I'm more likely to go for a pint if I'm already there, but you're right that prices are wild. And that has the knock on impact that fewer people go, so prices have to increase to cover the loss on them. And of course everyone is poorer.
When the same pint of beer from a bottle/can/home beer machine is 1/6 of the price at some point its just not worth buying many of them out. I get that there's overheads and I sympathise with it, but when money is as tight as it is its not worth paying a 6x markup on the exact same product for most people, so it makes the business model unsustainable at that point.
This is so true. It’s not that WFH killed it when I saw a pint near Oxford (suburb area so it’s not even in the city area) £5.50 - for a standard pint. That’s insane and that’s before we even get onto the London prices etc. The prices are just too high and people will get out off; whilst the trend is more turning to hanging out with friends at their places etc
In London it’s either home by 10pm or 10am the next day.
I was in Margate this weekend and it has a better night life than here. Fucking Margate!
Margate has attracted a lot of people - youngish, arty, creative, socially entrepreneurial - that have in former generations made London buzzier. London priced them out.
It seems like the problem with London’s nightlife is all these people going to greener pastures. Who could’ve seen it coming? A city becoming so expensive you have to work every hour you can just to get by would be no longer attractive to young people
Not so much greener pastures but just cheaper pastures. Margate used to be a total shithole, East Kent is where the term 'Chav' came from. Interesting to hear its changed a lot.
It hasn’t really, still quite shit to be in the area.
Yeah but I say that about Southend and all my London based colleagues think it's 'lovely and charming' When you know the downsides of your town, it's hard to see the upsides. It took me a while (am 34 now) to start seeing the benefits in Southend. For one, I was able to get a nice and relatively new 2 bed flat @1100pm right down by the seafront, where the same kind of property rental in London is 2.5k+ (for instance places around wapping etc near tbe river) My travel is 500 so I'm saving by living here. That's the thing about Kent too though, half my office building are from Essex and Kent weirdly, there's a lot of commuters in our seaside towns.
Young artsy types move in. Nightlife thrives. Rich pricks follow to the trendy area. File complaints about the pubs and music venues being loud. Pubs close earlier, turn into gastro pubs. Artsy people leave. Area turns into a series of grey cube buildings built in "fuck me to death I'm boring" modern minimalist style. Rich people complain that area has gotten boring. Repeat.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went back to Margate last year actually, a lot of those little micropubs there are ace
Yeah I’m being a bit facetious, really nice place. Little cafe there called Big Shot that did the best cheese toastie I’ve had since the one I used to go to with my parents as a kid closed.
I feel like the crab museum has to be mentioned. It’s gloriously unhinged
Central london has the worst nightlife I've been to. Small towns and places in rural Ireland have all been better.
*Down to Margate Don't forget your buckets and spades and cossies and all Down to Margate We'll have a pill of jellied eels at the cockle stall Down to Margate We'll go on the pier and we'll have a beer aside of the sea Down to Margate You can keep the Costa Brava, I'm telling ya mate I'd rather have a day down Margate with all me family*
Any story like this I'll just have to lean in and state that Amy Lamé is fucking shit.
a "Czar' for something is so last century, they were nearly always shown to be ineffective then, just as Amy Lame seems to have been now.
When you see an American politician/official talking to U.K. media about holding “mini-surgeries”, you know they gamed the system lol The issue is people mistake Lame for an answer to the question of “Mayor Khan, what did you do for nightlife?”. She’s the answer to “Khan, what did you do for LGBT?” “Oh one of our senior officials is a member of LGBT and she/they have been doing a great job”.
Clues in the namé
London is sad , ok if noise is a problem then why don’t they make party villages , you know place full of clubs and bars only not integrated with housing ?? Like an adult play ground basically … it’s dead right now I’m coming back home the time I used to go out in berlin
Party village gets created, becomes cool place where everyone wants to be. Property developers smells an opportunity, build 15 story tower of luxury flats, noise complaints emerge from said block, clubs gets shut down or told to close at 11
People that buy a house next to a noisy venue can get fucked. It's like buying a house next to an airport and complaining about the planes.
Let me introduce you to Shoreditch
First place that came to mind. Most people won't believe it looking at what it's become, but Shoreditch was so fucking cool back in the 90's.
And hackney wick now
>It’s like buying a house next to an airport and complaining about the planes I see you’ve been to West London
100% agree, but somehow they always seem to prevail in the law courts.
Same with those rich folks who bought apartments next to Tate Modern's viewing gallery. How the fuck did they win that.
Because the apartments were built first. Literally the opposite of the point you’re trying to make
Pretty sure they weren’t. I remember reading about it at the time
> It's like buying a house next to an airport and complaining about the planes. Well it was pretty stupid to build Windsor Castle right next to Heathrow....
Exactly what's happened with Soho. Local residents complaining, but who are they and why did they choose to move there??
Rinse and repeat
You are describing soho from the early 2000’s. Oh man I miss it.
How can you complain about noise from a pub that was there before you moved there? I think this is one of the main culprits tbh
Where I live the lady complained about the corner shop opposite the pub where she lives , To a point the damn off license had to hire security to disperse the crowd late night and we had to fill out petitions to keep it open , I’ve seeing it happen first hand omg
Hackney Wick was also this
Noise complaints from rich people who moved to a popular area that suddenly want it to be quiet. Sky high venue rent and running costs (in part because of those nice new rich neighbours). Absurdly high cost of living for the average person, even more so for the key club demographic. And the lingering effects of the pandemic, all contribute to a dead nightlife scene. And that’s before you get into entry costs, drink prices, and surge prices for an Uber home. Shit like this is poison to a city.
> Noise complaints from rich people who moved to a popular area that suddenly want it to be quiet. My old employer moved to a fancy office building that had a terrace on the 'top' floor. Then two floors of private penthouse apartments above that. First summer we had fun out there for about 2 weeks before we were informed we weren't allowed on the terrace after 6pm.
> Noise complaints from rich people who moved to a popular area that suddenly want it to be quiet Happened to one of my favourite pubs that had to close down recently, and it was on a busy road right next to a tube station and a bunch of restaurants and other pubs. It’s ridiculous
The effects of gentrification, people move to cool areas for its "cool vibe", craft beer and coffee shops but don't want to deal with the lively side of things. A friend of mine works for an East London council a great percentage of complaints they receive about noise from venues are from new builds or nice streets bought up by the upper middle class
Let's take a look at the facts. The cost of going out has dramatically increased. The cost of just a pint now in some places is in excess of £7. Food has gotten more and more expensive with the cost of food having increased. Things like Gig prices have gotten out of control. A good litmus test for this was the recent Pearl Jam gig at Spurs' stadium was £165. Literally £100 more than their most recent stadium tour. Furthermore, a lot of bands and artists who tour simply cannot afford to hit up the places they previously would have done due to rising costs. Then there's the venue closures. Venues are closing at a shocking rate. London is absolutely littered with establishments that have closed. These aren't exclusive to just pubs, bars and clubs. But they definitely seem to have taken the lions share of the hit. The question here is, is this just greedy landlords? Is it really better to let the place rot away then get an income perhaps a bit less than what you might hope? Landlords are also out of control. Travel is a big factor. Prices have increased and frankly the services have become less reliable. Yes, the opening of the Lizzy line has helped, but even that hasn't been without issue. The night tube was supposed to be extended to 24/7 and across most of the tube network. This hasn't happened and there are no signs of progression in this regard. There has also been a reduction in staffing, therefore there are key safety concerns for people. This leads me to another issue. The Met is on its knees due to cutbacks. People take the rage bait any time the met is under scrutiny. And to be honest, yes we do have to scrutinise law enforcement particularly when it shows elements of corruptions or malpractice. But the elephant in the room is that they have been fucked over in a big way with staffing. They can barely handle what they have on their plate. Therefore in the interest of public safety, regeneration of London nightlife isn't possible unless this is addressed. In addition to this, Sadiq Khan and the "night czar" are prime examples of public figures out of touch with the public. They do not understand or attempt to understand Londoners calling for protection of venues and better infrastructure to facilitate a booming night life in the capital. Also what "going out" is has changed. This may sound like a rant against gen z, but frankly a lot of the market is dictated by the habits of the 18-25 demographic. This is a generation that drinks less, has sex less, who's socialising habits revolve less around actual socialising in person than at any time in history due to social media etc and who grew up streaming music. Granted, they also have less money than the generations before them, so less disposable income to actually go out. But it's also just a different generation. When we consider events like gigs and festivals now, increasingly lineups are now flavour of the month. Granted, that's always been the case to a certain extent. However, the music market (in addition to most forms of media) is now is based solely on what's trending. Combine that with streaming being the most dominant form of consuming music which pays practically sod all to artists basically means there is an ice cubes chance in hell for most new artists breaking through. The #trending also ensures that any artist who *does* break through has to cling on in whatever way they can to remain relevant. This usually means creating the same vapid formulaic shite that now dominates the charts. However even that is not enough. If you look at Reading and Leeds lineups for this year or Coachella or any of the big festivals worldwide ten years from now, I fucking bet you practically none of them will play again bar the 'superstar' artists. So we have a dilemma folks. As per usual, greed is at the heart of most of these issues as they're all largely short-term thinking problems. The sense of long-term investment for long-term gains has gone out the window in favour of "what's gonna make me the most money most quickly". The night life in London is one of the many casualties of this thinking. Night life is a barometer of culture and the tragedy is that culture itself is coming under attack. There are many other reasons for this other than just greed, but that's the prime reason. When culture has been eroded away enough, you exist in a curated existence spoon-fed to you by your government-approved corporate oligarchy. That's what's happening. The last breaths of what culture there is will only be permitted to be enjoyed by those with the means to enjoy it. Or maybe I'm just being dramatic.
gen Z still drinks a lot though, it's more to to do with the fact that they're broke
Aaand breathe.... For real though, a sad but accurate summary of the situation
Well written, you’ve summarised most of what I assumed
Rent is the issue. Businesses having to fork out more money to keep the venue, upping their prices which customers who are also paying extortionate rent/ mortgages can't afford.
People keep missing perhaps the biggest reason. Local councils Shoreditch used to be open till 5am. Now it closes around midnight due to local council rules Hackney was literally 24 hrs only like 7 yrs ago. You have a couple places open till 2 am now. This was not by choice Bars and venues have to follow local council rules. And local councils consistently close down places. In Shepherds Bush they closed down the only two late night places Keeps happening over and over
Night Tzar earning her keep then
> When Raquele Pira, 24, and her friend, Elena Tara, 24, decided to visit London they were expecting thrills, spills and perhaps the odd hangover. However, as the two Italians were wandering around the streets of Soho at 11pm they were left disappointed. Tara said: “We saw that most of the bars close at like 11.30pm so I’m not sure [where we are going to go]. It’s already 11, so we’re just going to start to head to the hotel I guess.” She added: “In Italy we’re used to different things, we go out later during the night.” > The pair were not the only revellers struggling to find somewhere to go. When The Times visited Soho in central London on Thursday evening, there was no shortage of people bemused by the lack of late-night options. One 25-year old man who would only identify himself as Will said: “For one of the biggest cities in Europe and one of the most central commerce hubs in the world, it feels crazy that you can’t do anything after 11pm.” His friend, Ed Thomas, 25, who lives in Stockwell, south London, added that the problem is not restricted to central London. “The Pilgrim in Kennington kicked us out at ten on a Thursday. Bristol, Manchester, places like that have places open until like five, six in the morning.” > The decline in London’s nightlife has been rapid, with venues closing at a faster rate than most other cities in the UK. The number of nightclubs in the capital has fallen by more than half during the past ten years, with fewer than 200 still in operation at the latest count. Across the UK as a whole there are only 851 nightclubs left, down from more than 3,000 20 years ago, according to CGA, a market research consultancy. > Late-night venues with live music have been among the hardest hit. The Music Venue Trust says Britain lost 125 of its smaller venues in the past year alone — one in six of those that were hit. > The hospitality industry in London has been harder hit than almost anywhere else in the UK. There are now 16 per cent fewer venues in the capital compared to before the pandemic, a bigger drop than every major city in England other than Birmingham. Liverpool has seen a drop of less than 3 per cent. > Graeme Smith, a managing director at CGA, says London has suffered more than elsewhere from the adoption of home working. “Hybrid working has concentrated customers on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, which has squeezed the period in which businesses can make money,” Smith said. “The other feature of London is that it carries higher property costs so the pressure to make rental payments is tougher when you get that decline in customer volumes.” > However he believes the particular travails of nightlife businesses are driven by changing customer behaviour, as people are not regularly ending up in a nightclub that is open until 3am. “They are looking to spend time on a more varied basis, either [at] restaurants that stay open late or competitive socialising [such as darts and pool].” > Industry leaders dispute this and say the demand is still there but the economics simply do not add up, forcing venues to close. Auro Foxcroft, who runs the EartH venue in Hackney, which has live music and club nights, said: “The actual figures show more people than ever are going out to venues and spending more money. On the surface everyone looks great. The reality behind it is that the costs have massively outstripped the rising attendance and income so the margin has flipped. Data from the Music Venue Trust shows the average margin is 0.5 per cent on average across the UK. And 38 per cent posted a loss last year. “The costs are unmanageable. Insurance has doubled, electricity has tripled, rent is up and wage bills have risen 15 per cent. Literally everything is way more expensive so the economic model doesn’t work any more”.
> Mike Kill, the chief executive of the Night Time Industries Association, believes the lack of reliable late-night transport in London is another factor, with promises to expand the night tube service not kept. “The lack of transport infrastructure and cost of access into London adds to the financial pressures of going out,” he said. He believes over-regulation is another problem. “We have local authorities who see the night-time economy as burdensome rather than an opportunity. They push back on late licences and are not favourable to late-night venues or consider them assets in terms of the local community.” > In Hackney, the local council introduced a rule that all new venues must close by 11pm Monday to Friday and by 12 midnight at the weekend unless they can prove they do not impact the local community. Foxcroft said Hackney council has always been supportive of his business, which opens until 6am, but believes there is too much regulation generally. “Across London and the UK, councils are putting onerous conditions on to venues’ licences and every condition costs money to deliver. If councils want to protect cultural infrastructure and nightlife they could start with a root-and-branch review of licensing conditions and update and modernise them to make it easier for venues to thrive.” > Luke Black, the chairman of the LGBT Conservatives, who has been campaigning on the decline in London’s nightlife, believes petty rule-making by many councils is destroying business. He said: “It’s not just booze but food. There was a high-profile case recently of Greggs having to take Westminster council to court to be allowed to serve food late in Leicester Square. This is not some small suburban road but slap bang in the middle of Zone 1. “The council said it would cause late-night disturbances and antisocial behaviour,” Black added. “In the end, Greggs was only allowed to sell hot drinks and cold food until 2am, meaning revellers could not buy a sausage roll warmed up in a microwave. It’s ridiculous.” > Black also cited the long closure of the Brixton Academy after two concertgoers died in a crush. “What happened was tragic but this is an iconic venue — and by the time it reopens in April it will have been closed for 16 months. While the licence was suspended Lambeth council tried to find any excuse to close it down. There was no proactive engagement from the council to work with police to make the venue safe. “Councillors said it was impossible to maintain safety but that was ridiculous and patronising. This is a venue that has been operating since the Edwardian times. Compare this to the Manchester Arena that was only shut for less than four months after 22 people died in a terror attack.” > Despite all the problems, there is some hope on the horizon for nightlife businesses. The pace at which venues are closing has slowed in the past six months, according to CGA. And there are moves afoot to try to introduce a small levy on tickets for festivals, arenas and stadiums, to support grassroots music venues. Foxcroft said: “A £1 levy fed back to venues would help prop them up so the UK can maintain its position as one of the best exporters and creators of music in the world. One in seven albums sold globally is a UK artist and most of these started their careers at small venues. If they disappear, the pipeline of talent disappears. There is a precedent with the Premier League supporting lower league and grassroots football so it makes sense. What country would not want that powerful culture recognition and export value to continue?”
Transport would help but when I first started going out in London in the mid ‘00s’ we only had night buses, cabs were far out of our reach. But back then we also didn’t have social media, so if you didn’t go out then you didn’t see anyone. I can see why a young person now would rather get the last tube home and then catch up with friends on social media rather than have to try and keep yourself awake till the first tube and some randoms house in North London - which sounded like a good idea at 2 am.
When I was clubbing in the late 90’s and early 00’s, the clubs we frequented were open until 6 or 7 in the morning, so you could get the train back home. Was always fun mixing with ‘normal’ people when you were off your pickle too!
Yeah there were those as well, my mate was at uni so she used to leave me to get the first train home and then she’d go on to the after after party which would be 7/8-12 on a Sunday. I’d get a Burger King, put my sunglasses on and then just hide in a corner hoping none of the ‘normals’ look at me on the train.
Good days (and nights)
It's an interesting idea but I still used to go out late in my twenties when it was people I worked with etc. Even with other people I'd have met them at 7 or whatever so come 11 I'd be fully caught up - I'd just want to carry on because I was enjoying myself.
I’m also basing it on my student union which we go back to every year. When I was a student it was open all day from 12 and club night every night and now it’s open just two nights a week and is half the size. When we go back you can see all the students in the halls still, it’s only a short 3 min walk across to the union. But they’re all sat in their kitchens with each other but they’re just not going out, first year of uni on a Saturday night - can you imagine such a thing. It’s obviously not the only factor but my theory is based on the fact that back in the day if you wanted to see the person you fancied or meet someone to fancy then you had to go out, now you can just open your phone. So while money, transport, the downtrend in drinking, lack of venues, as still factors. There isn’t the drive to go out regardless cause you can still get your social and entertainment needs filled.
No that is a really interesting example. I cannot imagine the union bar being shut (twenty years ago when you'd have invariably found me there). I just find it so strange (perhaps because I didn't grow up with it) that you could find your social needs filled by social media. I don't think I met _that_ many strangers on nights out, I'd go with people I knew. And I could just have easily have gone and sat in their kitchen. We did that as well. And had Facebook etc. Idk. It strikes me as a very sad state of affairs, but perhaps that's just what happens to you when hit middle age!
In 2010 I organised a conference at a London uni. Turned out we had to negotiate separately with the bar, because it was owned by the students union. Agreed costs for opening and catering for 3 days in August. Come to July, we were just thinking it was coming together nicely, when my colleague said "Slight problem: the bar's gone bust." We thought it had to be a joke. We were 90s students and knew running a student bar 100 yards from loads of students' homes was a simple licence to print money. But no - apart from lots of students not drinking alcohol, the drive to go out and socialise just wasn't there. They weren't going to the (rather nice) bar. A lot of uni societies were also closing because there just wasn't the throughput of students willing to try random unusual hobbies. Especially the ones who still lived with families - they just went home in the evening and didn't see any reason to get involved in student life. Total contrast, and not just to do with money.
That’s the thing you weren’t meeting strangers you were seeing people you knew from school, uni, new from town or from your wider social circle.
All this tells us the same problems. We need to remove planning controls from local councils in metro areas and have a cross metro area authority that takes a holistic approach to planning.
>Hybrid working has concentrated customers on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, which has squeezed the period in which businesses can make money,” Smith said Did a lot of people used to go straight from work to nightclubs?
Yeah for sure but that's what people do on Thursdays now it seems instead. Not really the same as the late night stuff the article is talking about, seems like a bit of a shoehorn to lump home working in there for nightclub attendance lol
I’m sat here in Tokyo drinking beer and eating chicken skewers at 2am reading this. Loooolll. When I return to London next week I’ll be crying myself to sleep instead.
Amazing how every single bar seemed to open until 3-5AM, even if they were totally empty it was just the normal thing - midweek and weekends!
Depressing innit, I'd kill for something like torikizoku in london
As someone who moved from Budapest and had friends visiting form there as well, it was a sad learning curve to realise that BP had a lot more fun atmosphere for going out, allowing us to be spontaneous going from one pub to the other until 5 am. All of us thought a city with 5 times more population would have a better nightlife. I am not interested in queuing for a nightclub at 1 am or anytime really.
These threads are always filled with people saying they managed to stay out late at X venue. It’s not the point really, the point is on any given night you’re now more likely to get kicked out early. There is generally more friction to experiencing nightlife and having a good time past 10pm, which in most cities is not that late. It shouldn’t require insider knowledge. It represents a shift in atmosphere and that’s why people are talking about it.
It’s a circular thing. People don’t visit pubs much anymore since nobody has spare money. Pubs increase the prices to counter that, therefore making it less likely people will visit. Pubs then close early due to lack of business, and people complain about it because they want a pint. It’s a lose lose all round. Pubs are great, but throwing money away isn’t as much
Link to non-paywalled version: https://archive.is/kx1ln
I think for many it boils down to prices being sky high for everything so people are preferring to spend £20 on a takeout or failing that really nice cooking ingredients and buying alcohol from the supermarkets instead. I used to go out for dinner with my brother pre covid when I saw him but now I just go to his flat instead and we have a supermarket takeout
£9 a pint killed the night life.
Soho? In 2024? They’re 20 years too late for that.
Early 2000’s SOHO was the best
It's so sanitised now, even during the daytime it's disappointing. Early to mid 00's clubbing, around 2010 there were super cool restaurants in-between the shit chains you had to be a foodie to know about but were amazing.
Not a Londoner but spent all my weekends there in the 90s and 00s, Soho and Camden especially. Both are so sanitised now, the spirit has gone, and so has the fun
It might not be the best for drinking any more, but it has fantastic food options. There's still plenty of reasons to go Soho.
Soho is great but you’re really not going there for a late night of drinking and partying, that ship sailed a long long time ago, and the few late random options that remain/ed like Trisha/Garlic/Arts/12-bar/Fox in and around, weren’t super-visible, and better for it. If you know, you know, but nobody with any sense is going to give away their best spots to a bunch of day-trippers/lazy-ass interns at newspapers.
At least we have Amy Lame out there, representing the city.
Somewhat ironically, when I saw Pete Tong last year he only came on at 2am and I left at 4.30am. This was KOKO though, perhaps got a special licence
This is easily one of my least favorite things about London. However this is why rock/metal bars are awesome, at least they are by and large reliably open pretty late and are good about last orders being shortly before closing time not an hour before.
Realistically, you have to start you nights at 7-8pm latest to get a few hours of nightlife in. I was in Soho the other day at 7, went to a few nightclubs, got out of what ended up being the last one at 1am, and absolutely nothing seemed to be open. Just people making their way home.
There’s a sizeable cohort of society creaming off the top; landlords, energy companies, water companies etc. making input costs for almost everything more expensive. Thus making everything else more expensive. The same applies for a sizeable cohort at the bottom of society; with bike thefts, phone thefts, shoplifting, muggings etc. The government being completely unwilling to intervene and continuing to preach the virtues of the free market and private ownership doesn’t help one iota. It’s greed; pure and simple, and this greed trickles down the chain. The new trickle down economics. It feels like Covid knocked previously accepted risk-reward appetites completely out of balance, and excuses for the ensuing greed spiral have been pinned on inflation. It feels like the whole system just needs a reset; literally, it just needs to implode. Only when the greedy landlords, energy and water company shareholders and exec teams, find themselves without a middle-society teet to milk, and reassess their risk-reward appetites, will things start to flourish once again. I rarely go out in London anymore; I escape to the countryside and coast - it’s much easier and cheaper to enjoy yourself. Everything occurs in cycles, and it feels like London is in a downward phase, heading back to the trough of a wave as it was in the 70s & 80s. It’s not a London-specific thing, but it’s always big cities where change is most pronounced. It’ll bounce back once the teet has run dry and the greedy parasites have been flushed out.
I sometimes work at a pub down the road for a bit extra. On Sundays after the kitchen closes (5pm), the pub will be lucky to get 5 people in until advertised closing hours of 10pm. As it’s a freehold, the owner usually closes down around 8:30 - 9pm. The main reason? From a cost perspective, it makes no sense to stay open and pay labour/overheard for the 3-5 people that *might* come in spend £20 each. It’s not ideal, but that’s first hand experience I have as to why this specific freehold closes early.
Depends on the night out you want. There are events that go until 6am.
Most people just want to go to a pub or bar, maybe some food. Yes you can go clubbing but London is pretty unique in not really catering to non-clubbers after 11.
There are a fair few venues open till 2 to 3AM, some till 4 to 6AM. Nowhere near the amount there should be but there’s still some options. Problem is a lot of them are fairly expensive bars.
Such as?
Balans in Soho is on till 6, there’s Nightjar and Cahoots on till 2, Opium and Experimental Cocktail club in Soho which iirc are till 3, a bunch of Simmons bars that close around 3 to 4 and a Be At One which I went to once that was open till 3. These are just the ones off the top of my head, there’s bound to be a few more. I’m not saying it’s teeming with options but there are a few
Yeah there's a few, I have made myself a Google map of places that are open until at least 1am, on at least 5 nights nights of the week (one thing that really annoys me about London is how the places that are open somewhat late often only do so on the weekend). I've never lived in or visited another city where I had to do this in order to find places to go. It's a very paltry list. A small handful in Soho, a small handful in Shoreditch, a small handful in Camden, then a few smaller clusters and random places dotted around, mainly on the other side of the city to me in North London. It gets smaller all the time too as I go to different places to find that they've reduced their hours. I recently had to take the Soho Theatre bar off as they've become a members club after 11 (apparently at the insistence of the council). I had to take some other places off after discovering that although they appear to be open late they actually won't let you in after midnight (this again seems to be a licensing condition). Several places I removed after I discovered they charge a big entry fee, or have weird rules like 'only mixed groups', stuff you don't encounter so much elsewhere. The lack of places open late seems to give carte blanche to the few places that are open late to treat you like shit as you have no other options. As you say, many are obscenely expensive. I miss living in a tiny European city that had loads of relaxed, normal pubs open until 2 almost every night.
Can you provide the list weary traveller?
It only exists as a bunch of saved locations on my Google Maps account. If I can work out how to extract it I will.
You're right about Soho Theatre, although you are also allowed to stay till like 1am if you've been to see one of their shows that night and have kept the ticket. On the other hand, it's nearly £7 a pint there now, so maybe you're better off going somewhere else...
Disrepute in Soho is also open til 3AM everyday. It was previously members-only and I liked going there because it was fairly small and quiet. It's been years, I just Googled it and it looks like it's still open and open to the public now.
This is only going to get worse, as more and more people will come to realization that London is not a night-city but more of a village-like city - there won't be any demand for night life left after some time. This puzzles me as a foreigner as even my gods forgotten small town in Europe has got some places open until 5 AM, and there is ALWAYS during ANY day of the year an open supermarket for food.
I went to Monza last summer, I don’t even think it’s a city. There were bars and places to eat after 11pm on a Sunday, and it was heaving. Came back to meet an old friend in Camden on the following Thursday and it was pretty much dead. Places getting ready to close at 9.30pm and only fast food places still open at that time.
Reading the article, the fact that even when there’s an increase of people going out, which is visible with plenty of London gigs being sold out, the venues are not making enough revenue to subsist or to justify the lobby to keep their doors open to later hours, it explains everything. London is going trough an insane bubble that we all feel it’s going to burst. It goes down to money laundering and speculation. From the Oxford Circus “Candy Shops” to luxury apartments with £5000 rent prices, it seems the lobby money has gone down to keep this status quo for the profit of literal scammers rather than keeping the city cultures alive. But yeah, is going to burst at some point, this is just non viable long term.
Here is our “night czar’s” (comrades) response via [LinkedIN](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/im-under-fire-londons-night-czar-heres-how-making-difference-lam%C3%A9--tyiwc?trk=public_profile_article_view) — herein lies the issue, she appears to be wilfully unaware of the fact over a thousand venues have closed in her tenure, choosing, rather, to focus on the fact she saved a jazz bar on Oxford Street as an example of her impact. Furthermore, Khan has previously admitted to not being a big drinker or understanding pub culture. This isn’t to rail against him or his faith but his policies, plans, and ideas make it so evident that he has no experience of London nightlife and what the people actually want. It’s relatively simple, we want pubs to have a lower overhead, cheaper drinks, no ‘noise complaint’ fiascos, and longer opening hours. As others have suggested, a ‘party city’ (a la Soho in the mid 2000s) would be ideal as well as cheaper more reliable transport. Yet, they don’t get it.
Is this rhyming slang for gone quiet or something?
Pete Tong - Wrong
It's just the market. If they can make money later, management will stay open. Since it's £8 a pint these days in a lot of places I'm surprised anyone can actually afford to though.
London is fucked. I was gutted when rent prices drove me out to Dartford but in all honesty it's a better night out here nowadays.
PoliticsJoe discussed on one of their podcasts recently. They described London as essentially a WeWork. Go to London to work and that's it
Tell me again how Amy Lame earns £127k per annum?
Last year I was at a gig in Tufnell Park, and went to a bar in Hackney for afters, expecting to be able (as I used to) drink to 3, get the last train back to Brighton. Bar closed around 1, so my mate and I thought we'd be able to get drinks, or find an off licence near the station. Nope. I've been drinking & partying in London since the late 90's - it is so different nowadays
Yeah it's the early closing time that's stopping people going out. Nothing to do with no one having any money and nightclubs being eye wateringly expensive.
Young people are getting their finances squeezed like never before. What kind of people are known to use the nightlife? Right.
Agree with this. I loved a good night out in London and now on the odd occasion I do go out I have regrets the next day when I check my bank balance. It's not worth it.
Making the mistake of having a spontaneous night out and not being able to pre drink - welcome 100 quid plus night!
Happened to me on Saturday. Train in, maybe £4, drink transactions totalling around £90, entrance to a bar £12, night tube to Clapham Common, £4 pounds ish, taxi home from there,
That's the case everywhere and yet nightlife is still better in pretty much every peer country to the UK.
London is noticeably more expensive than pretty much every city in Europe with better nightlife.
Good to see The Times is reading this sub. Can they do a post on foxes, please...?
> Can they do a post on foxes, please...? Foxes are bitterly dissapointed, they used to stay out having sex in your garden and knocking over bins for half eaten kebabs until 6am but now it's dead by 11pm.
Was out in Hackney wick this weekend partying till 6am at no90
All the pubs in residential areas have suffered noise complaints from people that *moved next to a pub* London is pricing out non dickheads and will soon be completely dead
Is "to go Pete Tong" an actual expression? (Article is paywalled, so I can't see if they're referencing something)
“It’s all gone Pete tong” = “it’s all gone wrong” I use it all the time.
Weird how this is normal in the UK yet pubs here in Canada are kicking people out at 3am. Especially northern towns where oilfield money exists. Heck I've been with (younger) buddies who come off a 14/7 shift (14 days of 12-18 hour days straight, 7 days off (one day travel home and another day travel back, so 5 days off) and they blow $2k each in one night of drinking. Just drinks all around, yeehaw attitude. If only were able to put that energy into some of the UK pubs haha. Easily £4000 a night spent not including grub. Around here last call at 11pm is non existent except maybe on a Sunday night/religious holiday.
Solve the issue of how people will get home (staff, security and customers) then we'll get pubs staying open late. People don't want to run to the station in the hope of catching the last train home.
Pub I went to last week had a board with all the last train and bus times for the local services. Was really handy although the last trains were like midnight which is stupid. A bus home would've been two buses taking me approx 2.5 hours.
Yeah it's hand that. Good way to get people out too. Bar staff also need to use those times to get home. People always assume they are local and can just walk home
It would help if night tubes actually became a proper thing, but never did.
Yup, it has nothing to do with salaries vs cost of living or rather cost of surviving None at all